S06.E09: Battle Of The Bastards

[RCharter]

27 minutes ago, gbbarb said:

Never send she was the second coming of anything.  I only said Lady Lyanna haven't been through anything to consider her a badass.  I few bad looks are nothing.  As for the rest I won't discuss with you as there is no point in arguing with someone who mind is set.  I didn't say wrong, just set so no need to yell at me.

My internal badass meter pings for the little Lady Bear.

However, just as a counterpoint I would say that Lady Lyanna has managed to hold and rule her house even though she is incredibly young, and a girl in a patriarchal society.  I suspect there were Cousin Mormounts and other nobility that aspired to her position, but she managed to keep them at bay.  There is no indication that she a puppet like Robyn, or easily swayed, even in the face of her much older and male counselors.  

So, I suspect Lady Lyanna has been through a few things in her quest to keep her position....and all of the above are reasons I would consider her a badass.

But MV, and I could see where a person might think she hasn't been through much too.

Just now, revbfc said:

Question about Wun Wun's dead body:

Who moved it?

An army?

Seriously though, that should be the first body that they burn, because you do not want Wun-Wun the WightWalker coming for you.

[GrailKing]

5 hours ago, Cynna said:

I'd either missed or forgotten that - thanks!

@DarkRaichu - great clips, love the info on the battle filming. I do hope they get Rheon some counselling, that haunted look on his face at 10:04 is no good. :/ 

Yeah, it played over a number of episodes: who gave Sansa the necklace, who is he employed by, "I don't want friends like me" a line about "Growing Strong", I could also be wrong, but Olenna sends her grandchildren out to find the prettiest necklace etc. all confirmed on the ship.

[AlliMo]

After watching the "making of" the battle scene clip on YouTube, I'm even more impressed knowing how much CGI they actually *didn't* use. That was visually stunning.

On rewatch, one of my favorite small moments is Grey Worm straightening his vest after slicing the master's throats.

The Lannister armies are at Riverrun, and both the Lannisters and Tyrells at King's Landing are basically under the thumb of the High Sparrow. There's not a damned thing they can do about the north.

Littlefinger came to Sansa pretty much begging to make things right with her. He may currently be leading the Vale army, but there's not a soul among them who trust him. Sansa is their lord's kin. Littlefinger is the upjumped lordling who married their lord's mother who died at his hands. He's burned his bridges with the Lannisters. He has power now, but it's damned precarious and he's smart enough to know it.

Edited June 21, 2016 by AlliMo

[Mabinogia]

Eating Ramsey puts them up in my estimation. lol (I just wish people realized, it's the owners who train these dogs who are bad, not the dogs who are just being dogs.)

Ramsey's death was completely satisfying to me. I get the desire to see him suffer what he did to other, the torture, the dick cut off, etc. however, I fear Ramsey would see that as a win. He would have turned his victims into the very evil they were victimized. I think having his "loyal" dogs turn on him because of how horribly he had treated them (starving them) was the perfect death. I love Jon for allowing Sansa the satisfaction of ending him.

I also think that if Sansa had told Jon about the Vale soldiers coming the battle would have gone very differently. They would have lost. She specifically told him at one point that Ramsey needed to be blindsided. Jon, far too honest for his own good, would have given it away. This was the only way it would have worked. The look on Ramsey's face when he realized he was about to loose was priceless. The fact that he lost to one of his victims was priceless.

My heart broke when Davos found that little deer. But mad respect for him for not going off the rails and getting his revenge on Melisandre before the battle. That was impressive self control IMO.

I know Dany is polarizing, and I can see both sides of the argument. Personally, I like her because I remind myself that she's a teenager who has lived in hiding and captivity most of her life, but I can see why others find her annoying. But her whole scene this ep was amazing. Visually stunning, badass, and a nice appetizer before the main course battle. I like that she listened to Tyrion. Her first instinct is to be like her father and burn the world to the ground, but she is still capable of listening to reason. That shows that she is not, yet, a lost cause.

Didn't miss KL or Arya at all. This was one of the most satisfying episodes ever.

[GrailKing]

4 hours ago, MissLulu said:

Well I am battling a big ant infestation in my bathroom on the hottest day of the year (so far). I almost know how Jon Snow must have felt and could use Sanza and the Knights of the Vale right about now! 

Try sweet and low or what has aspertaine in it.

Look it up, worked for me, still no ants this year either.

4 hours ago, MissLulu said:

 I guess you did not watch the preview for next weeks episode at the end of the show? 

  Reveal hidden contents

It is a short clip but he states his intentions were always clear while she seems clueless to what he is implying. She clearly did not promise him anything before the battle but he clearly believes she owes him... 

So much for being sorry, that he put her in that position.

[HumblePi]

19 minutes ago, revbfc said:

Question about Wun Wun's dead body:

Who moved it?

there were more than 80 horses there, either they towed him out or they had to dissect him and take him out in pieces.  

[GrailKing]

3 hours ago, RedHawk said:

I hope Sansa simply refuses to fulfill any promise she made to Littlefinger. What does she owe him? Technically the leader of House Arryn is her cousin Robin, who chose to come to her aid when called upon. I really want to see Sansa coldly deliver a few choice words and then leave Petyr Baelish standing with his mouth agape.

Well she better get the young lord away from him first.

[spaceytraci1208]

21 minutes ago, revbfc said:

Question about Wun Wun's dead body:

Who moved it?

Everyone lol

[dramachick]

4 hours ago, Popples said:

And by his own army retreating and climbing over top of him. I held my breath so long watching that I nearly suffocated with him.

I felt the same way.  It's hard for me to watch well-done battle scenes like that because of the realism.

I think Jon went into the battle in a fatalistic, almost suicidal state.  But when faced with imminent death at the bottom of those bodies, he discovered that he really did want to live and climbed his way back to life.

[GrailKing]

3 hours ago, taurusrose said:

To the people calling Jon an idiot:  Enough.  Jon is one of the most human characters in all of Westeros.  It would have been completely out of character for him NOT to try to save Rickon.  Who wouldn't have done exactly the same thing in his shoes?  What would the complaint be if he had sat there and simply watched Rickon run for his life, doing nothing?  Sansa is hardly the hero or saint of this story.  Had she spoken up about her inside Ramsay knowledge before the night of the battle (and maybe offered up some ideas of how to beat him at his own game) or confided in Jon about the Vale's army, maybe things would have gone differently...at least the part where so many Team Stark fighters died needlessly.  Sansa didn't say "Ramsay will drag Rickon out on the battlefield to bait you."  She said he likes to hurt people.  I don't know, but that's pretty damn abstract.  For all she knew Ramsay could have thrown Rickon's head out on the field like he did Shaggy Dog's.  The point is, she didn't add anything to conversation and she COULD have.  Why didn't she?  I don't know what Sansa's problems are and truthfully, I don't give a flying fuck.  I couldn't get past the smug, self-satisfied look on her face when the Vale army showed up all the while sitting safely on the sidelines next to Littlefinger.  Did she even care about the people who were fighting and dying for Winterfell? Did she even care about Jon, or has she been play acting with him all along?  Nope, I can't stand Sansa Stark.  If Jon's an idiot, she's far, far worse.  

Jon's not and idiot, the fact remains, he made a wrong decision, Sansa has no proof LF is coming just a hope, as far as Rickon and the wolf head, what no one knew was that Ramsey was bringing Rickon to the battle, but the sign of Rickon being dead or dying was delivered by the tossed Direwolf head.

Sansa knew because she was captive by Ramsey, Tormond knew when he saw Rickon on the field, Davos knew, Jon had a no win here, but the correct decision was to stick to his plan, which he gave up.

BOTH these kids are suffering PTSD, but Sansa's head is clearer then Jon's.

It was only in the through of death for a second time that he realized he wanted to live and luckily he did.

[Fishslap]

22 hours ago, SimoneS said:

Ramsey really is the worse. He didn’t even care about hitting his own men.

 

This is based on Edward Longshanks in his war against Scotland. He ordered his archers to fire volleys into the melee then and when someone pointed out that they would hit their own men he supposedly said "Yes, but we'll hit theirs as well." It looks bad on TV obviously but it wasn't unheard of in Medieval warfare.

Edited June 21, 2016 by Fishslap

[midge]

Sophie Turner is stunning.  

[Mabinogia]

Ramsey knew he had more men which means he could afford to loose men. If he took out two of his men for every one of Jon's he would still be ahead. Ramsey doesn't give a fuck about human life other than his own. I think, if he had access to a bomb he would have just dropped it on the field killing all his and Jon's men.

I'm just so grateful he is gone. Though the actor is absolutely amazing, I started finding Ramsey extremely boring and tedious after his first season. Sadism is not interesting to me. Cerses evil is more interesting because she has some thought behind it. Sure, it's some bat shit crazy thought, but it's more than just pulling the wings off flies just because you can. Ramsey just likes killing and torturing for it's own sake. That's dull to me.

[GrailKing]

1 hour ago, taurusrose said:

Ditto for Sansa.  See previous posts for my thoughts on Sansa's worthiness.

Sansa's been to hell and back, and she needs nothing to redeem for.

Ned confronted Cersei, Ned spilled his plans to her, LF pointed out his spies,Cersei's spies and Vary's little birds and he still trusted LF and played the game poorly, that's why he lost his head, not Sansa,not Arya, but NED.

The only one who pleaded for him was Sansa; and the boy King lied to her.

[DarkRaichu]

1 hour ago, GrailKing said:

Here is the thing, there isn't one Stark fighting for the Iron Throne, not one.

.......

Sansa is fighting for family and home ......

.......

They all are learning from mentors, and will use those skills to get home or save the realm, one or two of them may be King or Queen, but they're not looking for it, and don't want it.

With enough influence from LF she just might extend her home to include King's Landing as well ;)

[Fishslap]

47 minutes ago, AlliMo said:

Littlefinger came to Sansa pretty much begging to make things right with her.

 

I keep telling you you're underestimating LF. This has been his war from the start; the Lannisters, Starks and Baratheons just puppets on his strings since season one.

[GrailKing]

1 hour ago, taurusrose said:

Sansa has not suffered any more than anyone else from House Stark.  The ordeals they've endured have been different, that is all.  And no matter what she's endured, she still has her life.  You can't say that for Ned, Catelyn (hate her, too), Rob or Rickon.  And you are right, I don't like her.  I don't see her as the second coming of anything.  Never have and never will.  

Your correct, she's not the second coming. she's a normal child who was sheltered by loving family and brought up to be a proper young woman and provide a powerful match for her house, it was Ned who agreed to the betrothal and it was Arya who questioned Ned on how could he give Sansa to a person like Joffery.

Sansa's crime is being a normal girl who believed in love, shiny knights and Princes, until real life hit her in the face; JUST like normal kids today, except they want to be rock stars, or famous actors, Presidents.

8 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

With enough influence from LF she just might extend her home to include King's Landing as well ;)

Hope not, she doesn't want it, but LF does.

[Timetoread]

4 hours ago, taurusrose said:

To the people calling Jon an idiot:  Enough.  Jon is one of the most human characters in all of Westeros.  It would have been completely out of character for him NOT to try to save Rickon.  Who wouldn't have done exactly the same thing in his shoes?  What would the complaint be if he had sat there and simply watched Rickon run for his life, doing nothing?  Sansa is hardly the hero or saint of this story.  Had she spoken up about her inside Ramsay knowledge before the night of the battle (and maybe offered up some ideas of how to beat him at his own game) or confided in Jon about the Vale's army, maybe things would have gone differently...at least the part where so many Team Stark fighters died needlessly.  Sansa didn't say "Ramsay will drag Rickon out on the battlefield to bait you."  She said he likes to hurt people.  I don't know, but that's pretty damn abstract.  For all she knew Ramsay could have thrown Rickon's head out on the field like he did Shaggy Dog's.  The point is, she didn't add anything to conversation and she COULD have.  Why didn't she?  I don't know what Sansa's problems are and truthfully, I don't give a flying fuck.  I couldn't get past the smug, self-satisfied look on her face when the Vale army showed up all the while sitting safely on the sidelines next to Littlefinger.  Did she even care about the people who were fighting and dying for Winterfell? Did she even care about Jon, or has she been play acting with him all along?  Nope, I can't stand Sansa Stark.  If Jon's an idiot, she's far, far worse.  

He's a complete and utter idiot and, like his idiot brother, already got himself killed once because he doesn't know how to read a room and would have been killed again last night if his little sister wasn't smart enough to know not to give his dumbass too much information. He's basically "Hulk smash. Hulk bash!" stuck in the body of a GQ model.

As for Sansa speaking up, she did, she gave him one piece of actionable intelligence and he did the exact opposite.  Intelligence is wasted on the stupid. Bottom line is that Jon Snow played no part at all in the war that was won last night. All but three of the men that came with him died - bringing extinction to the race of giants as a matter of fact. The men that came with her won the war.

[AlliMo]

19 minutes ago, Fishslap said:

I keep telling you you're underestimating LF. This has been his war from the start; the Lannisters, Starks and Baratheons just puppets on his strings since season one.

I think he's been pulling a lot of strings and definitely playing the long game, but he's also not infallible. Like everyone else, there are things he can't control and he has his weaknesses, his obsession with Sansa's mother being one of them. I don't think Sansa's marriage to Ramsay turned out the way he planned, for one.

Edited June 21, 2016 by AlliMo

[ElectricBoogaloo]

8 hours ago, Timetoread said:

Ramsey's death by dog doesn't make Sansa anymore cold and sadistic that it did Jon almost beating him to death. It bothers me that we cheer when men kill the bad guy but when a woman does it (mind you a bad guy that raped and brutalized her, who sent the very dogs who killed him to kill her, and who'd just killed her little brother), she's disturbed/gone dark/changed and other such things.  At any rate, I would wager that of ALL the Stark kids, she has suffered the most.  All the way from having her direwolf executed to having her FATHER executed in front of her, to being held in KL by two of the most evil people on the planet, to being publicly shamed and accused, to being threatened by her insane relative, to being darn near molested by an creepy manipulative man who then betrayed her by giving her to the third most evil person on the planet who added sexual and physical abuse to the psychological abuse she'd already suffered.  But that which does not kill us only makes us stronger.  Ramsey didn't change her, ALL OF IT changed her.  And she is not cold, she is strong. 

ITA - I don't see Sansa as cold or sadistic for letting Ramsay's dogs eat him. That's just poetic justice. Yes, justice, not revenge. Sansa was never going to get legal justice by following the letter of the law and taking him to King's Landing for a trial. She knew about many of his crimes  and not just the ones involving her. She knew what he did to Theon - months and months of psychological and physical torture. She knew about his hunting games. She escaped just before he murdered Fat Walda and her baby. He was an evil sadistic killer with no honor. His death didn't even begin to make a dent against all the terrible things he did to other people, but it was the correct punishment for his many, many crimes.

And I agree that Ramsay didn't turn her in a cold blooded killer. She has been under psychological (and physical) onslaught since shortly after she arrived at King's Landing. Don't forget to add to the list of things she endured the fact that Joffrey did all kinds of threatening things like pointing a crossbow at her and having Ser Meryn beat her frequently. As horrifying as Ramsay was, she had already been through a lot before she got to his abusive hands so I don't think her time with him turned her into a heartless murderer who enjoys tormenting people. It would be one thing if she smiled because she was having some innocent villager beaten for her amusement, but smiling because the dogs who Ramsay used to kill countless others devoured his smug ass? I don't think that makes her sadistic at all, just smiling because turnabout is fair play.

8 hours ago, RCharter said:

LOL....I still have an axe to grind with Danny Glover over The Color Purple, so I know how to hold a grudge.

But yeah, I'm sure the actor is a nice guy.....I'm just one of those people.

Ha, even when I see Murtaugh saying, "I'm too old for this shit!" I think BUT YOU KEPT THOSE LETTERS FROM CELIE, YOU ABUSIVE BASTARD!

8 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Oh, I definitely think he stopped because he knew/felt that Sansa should be the one to end Ramsey. I was more wondering on the manor of death. Did Jon think Sansa would order a beheading or hanging?  Or did he realize that Sansa was going to use Ramsey's own vile ways against him?   It's just something i found interesting.

I think it was more that Jon was like hey, dealer's choice - however Sansa wants Ramsay to die, I'm cool with it.

7 hours ago, Mathius said:

Sansa's not trying to be a "good guy", she's trying to be a survivor.  She's avoiding the mistake most of her family has made.

The downfall of Ned Stark was that he was more concerned with doing the right thing than by doing the safe/smart thing that would keep him alive. Jon seems to have a similar sense of honor. It seems Sansa has learned that the most important thing is staying alive, even if it means not having the moral high ground, and I'm okay with that. And off the top of my head, I can't think of any decisions she's made that were outright amoral or evil, so it's not like she's gone over to the dark side in order to stay alive. She's just become more analytical and cunning instead of letting her emotions rule her decisions. Of course she didn't want Rickon to die because she loved her brother but she was able to see that Ramsay would not let him live, so she didn't spend all night trying to come up with an impossible plan to save him. That doesn't mean she didn't love him. She was just able to see why he was more of a threat to Ramsay and know that there was no way Ramsay was going to let him live.

6 hours ago, annsterg said:

So...seems like there are a whole lot of great houses that have bitten the dust. It is interesting to think about who or how will fill those vacuums: is the entire Martel family gone in Dorne? Are there any Baratheons left? Any Bolton cousins? I think Tormund should get the Dreadfort for his own, and the remaining wildlings can settle there too. Are there any Umbers or Karstarks left? Are the Starks going to allow a cousin to inherit or will they go all Reynes of Castamere on those houses and grant those lands to others?

Technically there are lots of Martel children left (Oberyn had eight), but they're Sands. Since no one in Dorne seems particularly concerned with bastards, I guess the people are okay with Ellaria and some of her daughters being in charge now? I too have only read the first book but based on what I know from the show, there aren't any true Baratheons left (Shireen was burned alive, Renly didn't have any kids, Tommen is a Lannister incest baby). Is the Stark cousin you're referring to Robin Arryn? I really hope he falls through the moon door soon because he is really not fit to rule anything.

5 hours ago, RedHawk said:

The one reunion I most want to see likely won't happen until well into next season, but I can't wait for Tyrion and Sansa to have a quiet chat to catch up on all that's happened with them since their "separation". "Hello, wife, how's the world been treating you? Married again, eh? No, no, everyone thought I was dead, or a traitor, or a dead traitor. Widowed after a major battle, and fed your sadistic husband to his own dogs? Wonderful! Remind me, dear, never to get on your bad side." 

Heh, I bet Varys would approve of Sansa feeding Ramsay to his dogs! But yes, I would love to see Tyrion and Sansa having tea and catching up on everything that's happened to them since Joffrey's wedding.

1 hour ago, GrailKing said:

Here is the thing, there isn't one Stark fighting for the Iron Throne, not one.

Ned died for putting the rightful ruler on it and found a huge deception.

Robb died trying to save his dad, he had no plans on who would sit the chair.

Jon is fighting to save the wretched realm from Ice Zombies along with Bran.

Sansa is fighting for family and home and Arya for revenge and home.

And Rickon was just the spare heir per Bran.

They all are learning from mentors, and will use those skills to get home or save the realm, one or two of them may be King or Queen, but they're not looking for it, and don't want it.

Even at this point when they are older, I don't have the sense that any of the remaining Starks want the Iron Throne. Arya wants to kill a couple of people. Sansa just wanted to escape from her line of creepy husbands and now she's back at Winterfell which is all she seemed to want. Jon is trying to protect everyone from the White Walkers. I don't know what Bran wants but he never gave me the impression he wanted to march down to King's Landing and take over. Of the four remaining kids, I think Sansa and Jon are the ones who feel the responsibility to take care of their people in the north, but I don't think they have any desire to become responsible for the Seven Kingdoms. Hopefully Dany will get that because I don't want her trying to take them out.

31 minutes ago, revbfc said:

Question about Wun Wun's dead body:

Who moved it?

I might be totally wrong but I thought that Winterfell just had that one main courtyard so when Wun Wun fell and then Jon and ramsay started their one on one, I was like wait, why don't I see Wun Wun in the background? Did he magically disappear? Did Jon and Ramsay agree to a time out so they could move Wun Wun out of the way? Is there another courtyard that I don't know about?

[Fishslap]

Just now, AlliMo said:

I think he's been pulling a lot of strings and definitely playing the long game, but he's also not infallible. Like everyone else, there are things he can't control and he has his weaknesses, his obsession with Sansa's mother being one of them. I don't think Sansa's marriage to Ramsay turned out he he was planning, for one.

Well, it depends on what he wanted, which I'm pretty sure is the throne. The question now is who will sit on that when Daenerys finally manages to find a boat, and my money is on LF. Unless the show has a complete change of character I rather suspect that Sansa will be dead before that happens. Then you'll have Mr Doofus in the north and the Mother of Titles in the south against the loyalists in the middle perhaps. And since he's probably her nephew anyway they can then marry in violation of the laws of nature and fight the walkers together. The end!

Needless to say I'm approaching the moment when I will start cheering for the walkers. I can smell the perverse happy ending coming here.

[Morrigan2575]

45 minutes ago, Fishslap said:

This is based on Edward Longshanks in his war against Scotland. He ordered his archers to fire volleys into the melee then and when someone pointed out that they would hit their own men he supposedly said "Yes, but we'll hit theirs as well." It looks bad on TV obviously but it wasn't unheard of in Medieval warfare.

Is that legit? I was under the impression that was more Braveheart then real history.

[Fishslap]

3 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Is that legit? I was under the impression that was more Braveheart then real history.

It's what's known as a historical anecdote I believe, and is based on accounts from that battle. Obviously though there weren't any microphones present to record him saying it, so it's not like there's iron clad evidence. But as far as I know Braveheart lifted that quote from real life. And it's beyond question that he did in fact order his archers to fire into a melee at least once,. It was one of the things he became so infamous for in Britain even while he was still alive.

Edited June 21, 2016 by Fishslap

[SimoneS]

22 minutes ago, Fishslap said:

Well, it depends on what he wanted, which I'm pretty sure is the throne. The question now is who will sit on that when Daenerys finally manages to find a boat, and my money is on LF.

I am confident that isn't going to happen. Littlefinger might temporarily install Robin on the Iron Throne with the Vale army, but there is no way that he will be sitting there. 

[RCharter]

1 hour ago, midge said:

Sophie Turner is stunning.  

So...I've always thought she wasn't pretty enough to be Sansa.  However, I see now why they chose her, because they have been able to really bring out some amazing angles in her face through lighting.  A girl that was maybe more of a traditional "pretty" wouldn't be able to give so many amazing angles.  She is uniquely pretty.

[Fishslap]

7 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

I am confident that isn't going to happen. Littlefinger might temporarily install Robin on the Iron Throne with the Vale army, but there is no way that he will be sitting there. 

There's always a way. If everyone else is dead, who will stop him? The Lannisters are down to Mr and Mrs Incest and their soon to be dead son, the Baratheons are already extinct, excepting Robert's bastards, and the Starks are down to two girls, a cripple and an undead bastard, neither of whom seems very likely to rule anything for long. Anyway, I never said he'd sit there long. It's just that you need a villain on the throne when Daenerys arrives in KL. Otherwise you'll have her killing Tommen, who is after all an innocent in all this and fairly likable compared to most of the rest of the cast. Clearly it can not be Dany vs Tommen. That's like Stalin vs Dan Quayle.

Edited June 21, 2016 by Fishslap

[RCharter]

57 minutes ago, Fishslap said:

I keep telling you you're underestimating LF. This has been his war from the start; the Lannisters, Starks and Baratheons just puppets on his strings since season one.

I agree.....I think the idea that LF may see "wanting to make things right" and "taking advantage of someone who needs him" as mutually exclusive ideas is not the Littlefinger we've seen.  Maybe he does want to make things right, and maybe he knows exactly how to reconcile him taking advantage with making things right.  I think he could likely justify anything to himself.

[Ambrosefolly]

32 minutes ago, Timetoread said:

He's a complete and utter idiot and, like his idiot brother, already got himself killed once because he doesn't know how to read a room and would have been killed again last night if his little sister wasn't smart enough to know not to give his dumbass too much information. He's basically "Hulk smash. Hulk bash!" stuck in the body of a GQ model.

As for Sansa speaking up, she did, she gave him one piece of actionable intelligence and he did the exact opposite.  Intelligence is wasted on the stupid. Bottom line is that Jon Snow played no part at all in the war that was won last night. All but three of the men that came with him died - bringing extinction to the race of giants as a matter of fact. The men that came with her won the war.

1. It wasn't Jon Snow that gave the order about the Wildings, Stannis did. Jon was more or less facilitating the Wildings to make it past the Wall. He knew perfectly well that the other Crows didn't like it, but Stannis wanted them. Other than the 3 men and the boy Alister manipulated into killing Jon, the other crows called coup participates traitors and murderers. If "reading a room" is expecting  Alister to act like an adult and do his job, instead of going behind everyone's back and tricking Jon with Benjen's return to spring a trap on him.
2. Like it was mentioned before, Sansa gave an incredibly abstract concept about Ramsay's evilness. While I don't think she was surprised that Ramsay let Rickon loose and started firing arrows, she didn't know that is how Ramsay would trip up Jon. I still don't think it was a sign of stupidity that Jon went to try and get to and protect Rickon, just a sign that he still thinks with his heart. Malcolm Reynolds from Firefly would have probably do the same thing if he was in Jon's position, at least per losing the war. 
3. Sansa's advice was "Our baby brother is dead anyway, so don't bother trying to save him." Yara didn't even follow that advice initial with Theon, and she entered the castle of a man that skinned the Ironborn alive and sent Theon's dick in a box. 

What bothered me about Sansa smile at the end was that she didn't seem to be mourning Rickon, just getting her revenge. I think I would prefer it if she looked more resigned  to killing him than happy because Ramsay did manage to murder her youngest brother. However, I am glad that she was unfazed by him getting ripped apart 

[Fishslap]

2 minutes ago, RCharter said:

I agree.....I think the idea that LF may see "wanting to make things right" and "taking advantage of someone who needs him" as mutually exclusive ideas is not the Littlefinger we've seen.  Maybe he does want to make things right, and maybe he knows exactly how to reconcile him taking advantage with making things right.  I think he could likely justify anything to himself.

They made it pretty clear early on that he is obsessed only with power. And whether she likes it or not, he has now saved Sansa with the forces he controls, not she. People who are backing Sansa in a confrontation with LF are in for a rude awakening I believe. Wiser she may be but she has little to no real power as long as LF controls the Vale, which he does. Maybe she can change that but it doesn't seem very probable to me based on everything that has happened. He's supposed to be a master schemer. it would be awful writing to have a master schemer outschemed by a girl.

[Morrigan2575]

26 minutes ago, Fishslap said:

It's what's known as a historical anecdote I believe, and is based on accounts from that battle. Obviously though there weren't any microphones present to record him saying it, so it's not like there's iron clad evidence. But as far as I know Braveheart lifted that quote from real life. And it's beyond question that he did in fact order his archers to fire into a melee at least once,. It was one of the things he became so infamous for in Britain even while he was still alive.

Could you provide a link? I've been searching all night and, I cant find anything that shows Edward I habitually using a tactic of firing arrows into his own men.

Most of the accounts that I found basically mirror this take

http://www.educationscotland.gov.uk/scotlandshistory/warsofindependence/battleoffalkirk/

Quote

The English knights turned on the Scots bowmen, cutting them down and killing their leader Sir John Stewart. Edward recalled his cavalry and ordered his archers to loose. The English longbow was a new and deadly weapon; its iron-tipped arrows could pierce chainmail and padded armour. Flight after flight of arrows rained down on the Scots and began to break the schiltrons. Edward sent his knights to finish the Scots.

[LittleIggy]

3 hours ago, Atia said:

The dog looked like a presa canario.

Handsome dog!

[RCharter]

Just now, Fishslap said:

They made it pretty clear early on that he is obsessed only with power. And whether she likes it or not, he has now saved Sansa with the forces he controls, not she. People who are backing Sansa in a confrontation with LF are in for a rude awakening I believe. Wiser she may be but she has little to no real power as long as LF controls the Vale, which he does. Maybe she can change that but it doesn't seem very probable to me based on everything that has happened. He's supposed to be a master schemer. it would be awful writing to have a master schemer outschemed by a girl.

Me, personally, I think I'd be okay with it, because I think the show has given us some pretty powerful female characters.  And they have each been powerful in their own way.  And somewhat related, I want more Lady Bear!  Although, I think thats because she is so adorable, and if I ever had a daughter, I would want to raise a little girl like her.

But, I think your point stands with Sansa -- he may be obsessed with power, but I think people rarely see themselves as the world sees them.  So, he probably thinks he is being a good guy, or there is some greater good, or blah, blah, blah.  I mean, this asshole was seriously trying to defend handing Sansa over to Ramsay.  So LF can forgive himself pretty much anything.

And I agree that at this point Sansa's military power comes from LF, and she may need that military help to put the North back together again.  It seems like the North is pretty fractured right now.  She will have Winterfell back, I'm not entirely certain she gets the rest of Ramsay's army -- I imagine there is some Bolton cousin out there somewhere that might lay claim.  And those were men loyal to Ramsay....would they be loyal to her?  Who knows.

[SimoneS]

29 minutes ago, Fishslap said:

There's always a way. If everyone else is dead, who will stop him? The Lannisters are down to Mr and Mrs Incest and their soon to be dead son, the Baratheons are already extinct, excepting Robert's bastards, and the Starks are down to two girls, a cripple and an undead bastard, neither of whom seems very likely to rule anything for long. Anyway, I never said he'd sit there long. It's just that you need a villain on the throne when Daenerys arrives in KL. Otherwise you'll have her killing Tommen, who is after all an innocent in all this and fairly likable compared to most of the rest of the cast. Clearly it can not be Dany vs Tommen. That's like Stalin vs Dan Quayle.

If the Game of Thrones has taught us anything is that there isn't always a way. People lose the game no matter how hard they try to win or not to play or how good they are or how bad they are or how clever the are. 

I honestly don't get where it is coming from that everyone is going to be dead even with the spoilers floating around and people cannot simply stroll onto the Iron Throne because they want to be king or queen. Last time I checked there were four houses with armies that could hold the Iron Throne is choose; the Lannisters, the Tyrells, the Freys, and the Arryns. I would even throw Euron in there.

Edited June 21, 2016 by SimoneS

[PatsyandEddie]

Watching Barbarians Rising tonight on History. Kerry Ingram ( Shireen) has a small role as one of Boudica's daughters. She has such an expressive face! Nice to see the actors in other roles! 

Edited June 21, 2016 by PatsyandEddie

[Fishslap]

6 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Could you provide a link? I've been searching all night and, I cant find anything that shows Edward I habitually using a tactic of firing arrows into his own men.

Most of the accounts that I found basically mirror this take

http://www.educationscotland.gov.uk/scotlandshistory/warsofindependence/battleoffalkirk/

It's not a big deal historically and anecdotes tend to be skipped by serious historians these days, which is of course why they are so insufferably dull and boring. But on Wikipedia's page for the Battle of Falkirk it says "the knights were ordered to retreat and the longbowmen brought forward". This is allegedly when Ol' Ed simply had them fire into everyone indiscriminately. I must confess that my non-Gibson source for that is from a contemporary historian who wrote about the battle afterwards, and I can't find it right now, or indeed remember his name. Regardless, some people hated him and some people loved him so that needs to be taken into account with things like this. You never really know what is true and not in history when it comes to details like this because people lie and propagandize and they always have. All we really know is that he won the battle and that some people died fighting over a field. If he had lost I wouldn't be surprised if the stories about him had been even worse than they are now. But if you press me I will give you the point. Like I said though, it might not be a huge deal whether he actually said it or did it. Far worse has been done than shooting down a few of your own men in a battle.

In general though, militarily it is what is known as a gambit and is very common. It works in chess too. Some forces are sacrificed to draw the enemy out of a favorable position, to confuse him or make him chase. One might argue than Ramsay did all three, and would have succeeded if not for LF and Sansa. In all such cases the losses are deemed acceptable as long as the enemy is hurt more by it than you are. This is basically what Churchill's various early continental landings were in WWII. For example, by throwing thousands of Canadians into the fire at Dieppe the Germans were successfully misled regarding the planned actual landing site for the allied invasion in Normandy. Like I said, it looks bad on TV but it's very common. There might be a reason why Hollywood has shied away from Dieppe as it makes for a very uninspiring tale. And it is so common that it might be the reason why historians usually skip even mentioning it. So it seems safest to blame Hollywood, as it usually does in my experience. You almost never see friendly fire in Hollywood movies, but it is a major source of casualties in any war, whether it is intentional or not.

Regarding Gibson though he mangles the source material deliberately in order to make people realize that he is being allegorical, which is a point his many, and loud, critics, seem to have missed entirely. He's not really, or at least not primarily, talking about Wallace, Christ and the Mayans but about political power and oligarchy vs freedom and truth. To inform us of this he blends Aztec and Mayan culture and places it in the wrong time period, focuses more on the truth telling of Christ than his divinity and turns Wallace into a cartoon character. He's trying to be helpful with this but apparently he's still too subtle for some people. I mention this just in case this is another Gibson bashing intro. I'm not his greatest fan but the dude knows how to tell a story as more than a simple narrative. And I respect that.

[Morrigan2575]

Yeeeeaaahhhhh, I'm just going to go ahead and say "Baveheart".  ?

I'll ignore the stuff about Gibson because he's not worth my time.  Plus this has gotten massivly OT and the mods will probably smack us with a ruler if we continue. 

[DarkRaichu]

33 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

Last time I checked there were four houses with armies that could hold the Iron Throne is choose; the Lannisters, the Tyrells, the Freys, and the Arryns. I would even throw Euron in there.

Lol, the Frey let 2000 men marched through their so called siege unchallenged and the Ironborns were useless on land

The Tyrells and Arryns are the only ones left. Lannisters will be left in ruins once they are completely out of money or Cersei burns them all.

I am thinking the Sands will seriously damage the Tyrells and KL before Dany can reach Westeros.  Pretty much last season will be dragons vs white walkers

[HumblePi]

Just because I thought this was so cool

Edited June 21, 2016 by HumblePi

[gwhh]

At least Theon Greyjoy no longer molesting every woman he encounters-like his sister!

NYT talks about the TV show.  But they are adding too much modern day liberal babble into it!  Its just the same story retold since the first of written man. 

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/19/arts/television/game-of-thrones-season-6-episode-9-the-hungry-dogs-of-war.html?rref=collection%2Fcolumn%2Fgame-of-thrones-tv-recaps&action=click&contentCollection=television&region=stream&module=stream_unit&version=latest&contentPlacement=2&pgtype=collection

[La Dee Da]

I look forward to updated credits next week, with the wolf sigil spinning on the Winterfell pop-up! Whoo!

A good GOT episode for me are the ones that work well internally - was the story over the hour well told - and that make you imagine the direction all future episodes can take.  This was definitely one of those episodes.  Props to the director in particular - the two battles were well done and so distinct.  I loved the wide open, aerial battle of the now fully operational dragons and the claustrophobic, frantic, stab or be stabbed Winterfell battle. 

For Mereen, I am cautiously optimistic that forward progress has been made - I usually find myself taken out of Dany's storyline because I'm wondering how they'll delay her from reaching Westeros. Now I wouldn't be surprised if she ends the season with her fleet en route, perhaps to Dorne. And then her next challenge is to marshall support so she can rule over the long run, moving from "I'll break the wheel" to "can I interest you in realigning the spokes a bit?" It will be a struggle, given her current approach to leaving the world a better place is to burn half of it to ashes.

For Winterfell, I think the Starks are fine militarily speaking - it's too close to winter to mount an assault or siege, and the likely opponents are busy elsewhere. As usual for this show, things are less certain politically. I'm curious how Jon and Sansa will work together to rebuild the support of their banner men and women, and how they will manoeuvre the chaos loving wildly ambitious elephant in the castle that is Littlefinger.  The only thing that is predictable about him is his Catelyn-driven affection for Sansa - how does she deploy that to her advantage without marriage (he'll definitely suggest it given he's now their primary backer)?

i didn't worry about Jon during the battle - the Lord of Light seems to have plans for him - but I did worry about Davos. I thought he might come across a Bolton sneak attack during his stroll or, once he found Shireen's toy, that he'd succumb to dispair.

15 hours ago, Neurochick said:

 

I have a feeling it was done for dramatic effect, but the dogs took their own sweet time attacking Ramsay, especially if they hadn't eaten in a week.  I mean I used to have a tom cat who would run into the kitchen if he heard the cutting board come down and knew he was going to get turkey.  Besides, Ramsay was probably mean to those dogs.  What was good about that scene is even though we didn't see what was happening, we heard it. 

A small part of me was wondering how did they unlock the cages without the dogs attacking them, and when did Ramsay have a chance to train the dogs to only appear at the most dramatic beat of the scene.  But most of me was all "whooooooo, dinner time!" 

Edited June 21, 2016 by La Dee Da

[HumblePi]

There were five direwolves, one for each child. There are only two remaining alive. After Ricon's direwolf 'Shaggydog' was killed, Jon's direwolf 'Ghost' and Arya's direwolf, 'Nymeria' are the last of the direwolves.  I want to believe that these two remaining direwolves will reappear soon and have a part in saving one of them from something awful.

[Morrigan2575]

Quote

There were five direwolves, one for each child

6 Direwolves. They find 5 at first which would cover the Stark Children.  Jon finds Ghost at the end, he's the runt of the litter.

[Timetoread]

9 hours ago, Ambrosefolly said:

1. It wasn't Jon Snow that gave the order about the Wildings, Stannis did. Jon was more or less facilitating the Wildings to make it past the Wall. He knew perfectly well that the other Crows didn't like it, but Stannis wanted them. Other than the 3 men and the boy Alister manipulated into killing Jon, the other crows called coup participates traitors and murderers. If "reading a room" is expecting  Alister to act like an adult and do his job, instead of going behind everyone's back and tricking Jon with Benjen's return to spring a trap on him.
2. Like it was mentioned before, Sansa gave an incredibly abstract concept about Ramsay's evilness. While I don't think she was surprised that Ramsay let Rickon loose and started firing arrows, she didn't know that is how Ramsay would trip up Jon. I still don't think it was a sign of stupidity that Jon went to try and get to and protect Rickon, just a sign that he still thinks with his heart. Malcolm Reynolds from Firefly would have probably do the same thing if he was in Jon's position, at least per losing the war. 
3. Sansa's advice was "Our baby brother is dead anyway, so don't bother trying to save him." Yara didn't even follow that advice initial with Theon, and she entered the castle of a man that skinned the Ironborn alive and sent Theon's dick in a box. 

What bothered me about Sansa smile at the end was that she didn't seem to be mourning Rickon, just getting her revenge. I think I would prefer it if she looked more resigned  to killing him than happy because Ramsay did manage to murder her youngest brother. However, I am glad that she was unfazed by him getting ripped apart 

1. His undying loyalty to the Wildings was directly related to the fact that he was boning one of them.

2. Running to get Rickon, who was alive and running to him, wasn't at all stupid. Deciding to charge Ramsey's entire army alone, on foot, with his dick and his sword in his hands was the height of stupidity. Doing this as the commander of his own army and scrapping the plans they made for a possibility of victory was just plain selfish and moronic.  His personal pain rendered the lives of his men irrelevant. This is not somebody who should be a leader.

3. Sansa didn't say "don't bother to save little brother" with a dismissive shrug. What she said is that putting together a rescue mission would be in vain. Ramsey had already decided to kill ANY obstacle to his position.  If he hadn't already killed the boy, he would do so as a way to hurt and manipulate them.  He'd already killed his own family, he'd have no qualms about killing theirs. Her point was to avenge Rickon by getting rid of Ramsay once and for all. She even pointed out that a loss to Ramsay would mean that they all die - her too - not just Rickon.

Her smile IMO was not just for finally killing the monster, but that they had returned Winterfell to its rightful owners. She avenged (to the best of her current knowledge) her mother, father, Robb, Arya, Bran and yes, little Rickon. And she owed her husband some pain on her own behalf as well. Good dogs!

Edited June 21, 2016 by Timetoread

[Fishslap]

Just now, RCharter said:

Well, then by your own account there are cruel women (Cersei), stupid women (Lady Arryn) and strong women.  I don't see how strong women are tedious at all, but I guess they would be if you don't really like strong women?  But perhaps you can tell me how you find strong women tedious, because I'm not sure where that comes from.  If you're saying that a show should have strong characters, but you don't care about the genitals, why would you care that the strong characters are women?

Its not like demanding that all male characters be sly, because there are a million different representations of male characters on TV shows...however, historically and even now, its not the same way for female characters.  

Again, I would have to disagree with you on the matter of book Brienne and TV Brienne....I think they aren't that different at all.  But again, this is the "no book talk" area, so I won't go any further.

GoT isn't supposed to be an advertisement for women ruling, but even if it was, it only shows that women can be strong and cruel rulers, the same way men can be (Cersei), or they can be strong and crazy....which is the way people think Dany is going.....I personally don't see it with her, but I think she is constantly thinking of who her father way.

And these aren't the only two strong women on the show -- you have Sansa, you have Brienne, you have Lady Bear, you have Arya, you have Yara, you have Olenna, you have Margery, you have Meera. 

Well quite, and no I don't find strong women boring, although what makes someone strong, regardless of genitals, can be debated. What I find boring is to misguidedly force strong female characters into stories just cuz feminism, because it makes all the female characters one dimensional. I feel I was very clear about this above so please stop projecting things on me. As I said, it's like demanding that all male characters in a story be sly, sadistic, effeminate, stupid, weak etc. And no one would read such a story because it would have one dimensional characters. If it's a natural part of the story for a woman to be strong then it's fine. It is with Cercei but it's certainly not with Brienne, who has been turned into a caricature.

[SimoneS]

53 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

Lol, the Frey let 2000 men marched through their so called siege unchallenged and the Ironborns were useless on land

The Tyrells and Arryns are the only ones left. Lannisters will be left in ruins once they are completely out of money or Cersei burns them all.

I am thinking the Sands will seriously damage the Tyrells and KL before Dany can reach Westeros.  Pretty much last season will be dragons vs white walkers

Everything you wrote is out of control fanwanking. You basically created the farfetched scenarios on the show so that Littlefinger can end on the Iron Throne. 

[RCharter]

7 minutes ago, Fishslap said:

Well quite, and no I don't find strong women boring, although what makes someone strong, regardless of genitals, can be debated. What I find boring is to misguidedly force strong female characters into stories just cuz feminism, because it makes all the female characters one dimensional. I feel I was very clear about this above so please stop projecting things on me. As I said, it's like demanding that all male characters in a story be sly, sadistic, effeminate, stupid, weak etc. And no one would read such a story because it would have one dimensional characters. If it's a natural part of the story for a woman to be strong then it's fine. It is with Cercei but it's certainly not with Brienne, who has been turned into a caricature.

But how is someone misguidedly forcing women into certain stories?  I don't think a single female character on this show is one-dimensional.  They all have their demons and their flaws, but they are strong.  I'm not projecting anything on you, but I'm rather quoting what you said, and asking you about it.  

Why would enjoying strong female characters be the same as asking that all men be written as sly?  As I said above, men have, been written and characterized in a number of ways over the years that women haven't.  So, there really shouldn't be any great cry that the world is missing a number of sly male characters, because there are many, many sly male characters in the past and present.  Whereas that is not the same for strong, complex female characters.

And where do you get that the strong female characters are "unnatural" in the GoT storyline?

I also don't get how Brienne is a "caricature" any more than knights from any historical fiction are a "caricature."  Not only that, she is certainly not a caricature, because she does have depth, a backstory and complexity.  None of which would apply if she was a "cartoon figure."

Edited June 21, 2016 by RCharter

[Fishslap]

19 minutes ago, RCharter said:

Weak how is my question?  Many of the female characters have weaknesses, but I would say its bad for any writer to write a completely one dimensional character that is "weak."  I think that is just unfortunate writing, because people are generally strong at times/places, strong at times/places.  And that goes for men AND women.  Brienne has her weaknesses, just as Bronn has his weaknesses.

I think one dimensional characters are probably more boring than strong women with human flaws, and depth....but thats just me.

Sure Brienne has weaknesses, she charged in to get Sansa and damn near got herself killed.  She has an adherence to pride and doing the "right thing" that...much like Jon, can often get her into trouble.  So unless you're going to tell me that Jon doesn't have any weaknesses, I don't think you can say that of Brienne.  Brienne is written in both mediums as a total badass, with a lack of self-worth based on the fact that she is not attractive.  I have no idea what books you are reading, because I didn't get that at all from the books (although won't go any further, other than to say that book brienne and tv brienne are pretty close)

FrankenMountain gets about 2 minutes of screen time because he is boring.  Dead, undead, almost dead, he was a one dimensional character and always will be.  A story really based on him as a character would always be boring and tedious.

No obviously Jon is weak. But that's the point I was trying to make: It's fine for male characters to be weak you see. It's fine for them to be anything, which is perhaps why 99,99% of all rapists, serial killers, murderers and child abusers in TV entertainment are men. Whatever you want to write as an author you can always trust a male character to be depraved enough to do it, and no one will think it weird or inappropriate. I almost wish Martin had written Ramsay as a female character just to challenge this stale stuff. The problem comes when it is forbidden to make a female character weak, or really to have negative qualities at all, because it upsets people. I'm speaking generally of course, and this isn't the case on GoT or I wouldn't be watching it. But this is really what bothers me with a lot of TV these days, which is why I watch very little TV. If you write a female child abuser it becomes sensitive almost automatically so writers apparently shy away from it. What I want, as someone who is genuinely interested in story telling rather than people's genitals, is for female characters to have a much wider range of behaviors and qualities than either strong or unacceptable and male chauvinist, gender stereotype-reinforcing yada yada, which seems to be the only two available categories presently. Insisting that they must be strong is therefore the opposite of facilitating good female characters to me. I think what needs to happen is that people have to take the good with the bad. If feminists want strong, invincible female characters then they must also accept female child abusers, female sadists, female cowards and female idiots. You can't have one without the other without it becoming very boring very quickly.

But you said it better than I have above anyway. Any character needs to be more complex for a story to be gripping: weak at times, strong at times etc, while having a core personality, or at least appearance/function, to give it a sense of direction..And that needs to apply regardless of gender is all I'm saying. So to me both the Mountain and Brienne could be off the show and I would be very happy about it. I consider them the two most one dimensional characters on GoT by quite a margin.

Edited June 21, 2016 by Fishslap

[RCharter]

16 minutes ago, Fishslap said:

No obviously Jon is weak. But that's the point I was trying to make: It's fine for male characters to be weak you see. It's fine for them to be anything, which is perhaps why 99,99% of all rapists, serial killers, murderers and child abusers in TV entertainment are men. Whatever you want to write as an author you can always trust a male character to be depraved enough to do it, and no one will think it weird or inappropriate. I almost wish Martin had written Ramsay as a female character just to challenge this stale stuff. The problem comes when it is forbidden to make a female character weak, or really to have negative qualities at all, because it upsets people. I'm speaking generally of course, and this isn't the case on GoT or I wouldn't be watching it. But this is really what bothers me with a lot of TV these days, which is why I watch very little TV. If you write a female child abuser it becomes sensitive almost automatically so writers apparently shy away from it. What I want, as someone who is genuinely interested in story telling rather than people's genitals, is for female characters to have a much wider range of behaviors and qualities than either strong or unacceptable and male chauvinist, gender stereotype-reinforcing yada yada, which seems to be the only two available categories presently. Insisting that they must be strong is therefore the opposite of facilitating good female characters to me. I think what needs to happen is that people have to take the good with the bad. If feminists want strong, invincible female characters then they must also accept female child abusers, female sadists, female cowards and female idiots. You can't have one without the other without it becoming very boring very quickly.

But you said it better than I have above anyway. Any character needs to be more complex for a story to be gripping: weak at times, strong at times etc, while having a core personality, or at least appearance/function, to give it a sense of direction..And that needs to apply regardless of gender is all I'm saying. So to me both the Mountain and Brienne could be off the show and I would be very happy about it. I consider them the two most one dimensional characters on GoT by quite a margin.

First off - I don't see Jon as weak at all, I also don't see him as stupid.  I just think he is someone who isn't as strategic minded as Sansa, and is prone to wanting to save people, to the point of self-sacrifice.  

Second - historically 99.99% of rapists, serial killers, and murderers have been men.  The numbers are changing, and there are notable females in history, but to force a woman into a role of a rapist when history and reality simply don't bear that out would be to force a woman into a role that is unnatural, simply based on history.  And I thought that you didn't agree with the concept of women being forced into roles?

Third -- There are authors who have written depraved women, as well as depraved men.  But many times women, throughout the years, have only held limited roles in literature.  And these were one dimensional roles as simply wife, mother, daughter with no more depth.  However, one need look at the Crucible to find women that are written as depraved, but also more than one dimensional.

Fourth -- I've seen stories about female child abusers, but I don't know of many shows based around the life and times of child abusers. 

Fifth -- I think I just want complex characters no matter what the story.  Female/male/whatever.  I think you want the same.  However, I guess I don't see a lot of strong, one dimensional women on TV.  But perhaps you see things differently.

Sixth -- I want complex characters, you can be strong and be evil.  You can be strong, and good.  You can be strong and be good and bad.  I don't see why strength in women precludes all other character traits?

Seventh -- at the end of the day, you and I agree, more than we disagree.  So, I'm going to say we agree to agree :)

[Ambrosefolly]

50 minutes ago, Timetoread said:

1. His undying loyalty to the Wildings was directly related to the fact that he was boning one of them.

2. Running to get Rickon, who was alive and running to him, wasn't at all stupid. Deciding to charge Ramsey's entire army alone, on foot, with his dick and his sword in his hands was the height of stupidity. Doing this as the commander of his own army and scrapping the plans they made for a possibility of victory was just plain selfish and moronic.  His personal pain rendered the lives of his men irrelevant. This is not somebody who should be a leader.

3. Sansa didn't say "don't bother to save little brother" with a dismissive shrug. What she said is that putting together a rescue mission would be in vain. Ramsey had already decided to kill ANY obstacle to his position.  If he hadn't already killed the boy, he would do so as a way to hurt and trick them.   He'd already killed his own family, he'd have no qualms about killing theirs. Her point was to avenge Rickon by getting rid of Ramsay once and for all. She even pointed out that a loss to Ramsay would mean that they all die - her too - not just Rickon.

Her smile IMO was not just for finally killing the monster, but that they had returned Winterfell to its rightful owners. She avenged (to the best of her current knowledge) her mother, father, Robb, Arya, Bran and yes, little Rickon. And she owed her husband some pain on her own behalf as well.. Good dogs!

Yet, I don't believe he held it against Olly for killing Ygritte. He still gave the Night's Watch everything he had learned about the Wildings and in the end picked duty over love. And before Jon mercy killed Mance, he was ready to assassinate him in his tent. Not to mention he was finally seeing the reason for the Night's Watch, with the undead wights and the White Walkers. He never picked the Wildlings over the Night's Watch.

I will admit, I didn't like him charging forward after Rickon was shot. It would have been better if he picked up Rickon's body and rode back to his men. I really do hate they made Jon as stupid as possible. But I think that Kit played it well that his rage overcame his good sense

Yara showed a rescue mission isn't completely impossible. Hers would have worked if Theon hadn't become Reek by that time. I don't think it was particularly stupid to think and hope that there was a possibility that Rickon could be saved. And if Ramsay wasn't super Ramsay, it would have worked.

[announcergirl]

On June 19, 2016 at 9:37 PM, AimingforYoko said:

I'd rather have her with Robyn than Littlefinger. It's nice he came to the rescue, but the boy skeeves me out.

She's married to Tyrian, right?