S04.E03: A LOVEly Day

[IndianPaintbrush]

Quote

The family celebrates I Love You Day; Tori's friend Bobby spends time with the clan.

The biggest surprise for me this episode was Nathan and Ashley's expression of concern about the future of their relationship.  It surprised me that they admitted this together on camera, and I admire them for it.  Many other fundie relationships seem either too forced (Michaella and Brandon) or too much like a fairy tale (Erin and Chad).  It's nice they have the maturity and foresight to recognize they might not be right for each other.  They do seem like a couple that would have great chemistry at the beginning, but are just too different to live together.  I don't see these two getting married.

Bobby is a good looking guy.   That's about all I got on him so far.

[zenme]

IndianPaintbrush, I share the same thoughts as you, but I also thought Alyssa seems as though she belongs in a different family. She doesn't seem as warm as the rest of the Bates family.  I was really surprised John Webster sang with the guys.

I don't think it can be said enough: the Bates girl sure do attract better suitors than the Duggar girls!

[sadtvjunkie]

Maybe Alyssa is just so over the BIG family. I myself came from a family of 6- with 3 brothers and me as the only girl. I really have NO contact with my brothers because I had all of them I wanted when I was younger. Maybe she likes the house being quiet-I know I do. Maybe she likes her house being clean-I know I do. I don't think she is cold at all, just more reserved and over the loudness of her family. That is probably why she hasn't been home much, she is enjoying her on home on her and John's terms.

[Barb23]

29 minutes ago, zenme said:

IndianPaintbrush, I share the same thoughts as you, but I also thought Alyssa seems as though she belongs in a different family. She doesn't seem as warm as the rest of the Bates family.  I was really surprised John Webster sang with the guys.

I don't think it can be said enough: the Bates girl sure do attract better suitors than the Duggar girls!

 Alyssa comes across as she would rather be anywhere else than with her family.  I was impressed with Nathan & Ashley openly discussing their relationship too.  I'm glad they understand that all courtships may not lead to marriage (as they've already seen with Zach) & it may take time to come to this conclusion. I hope it does work out for them but if it doesn't, I see them as remaining good friends.  It's also  nice to see they can be affectionate with one another without overdoing it & not being reminded it's a sin like with the Duggars.  I liked when Michaela walked in & the younger sister (forgot her name) ran into her arms.   Kelly's expression was priceless when she unwrapped the baby quilt & realized a new grandbaby was on the way. We have seen how  I Love You Day has grown as the family has grown & has become a great Bates family tradition.  That dinner looked delicious & am sure it wasn't cheap to feed that many people. 

[absolutelyido]

Agree with what others have said about Ashley & Lawson's discussing the doubts they have about their relationship. Glad that the Bates' consider courtship a time to determine whether they are really right for each other rather than it just being a done deal that they will get married very quickly after courtship begins.

After last week's episode where they talked about the special bond between Trace and Jeb, I noticed more interaction between them than I had picked up on previously. (Before, it had always seemed to me that Jeb was pretty much glued to Gil.) When the guys were making dinner, Jeb was struggling to get a table cloth on a table and called out, "Trace, can you help me?". I also noticed Trace holding Jeb a couple of other times.

I think Alyssa loves her family...in small doses. Sound's like Tori's beau lives in Florida, I wonder how Alyssa would like it if Tori married him and moved close to Alyssa? If Alyssa likes her peace and quiet, she may not be happy to have the chatty and boisterous Tori too close.

I also liked that Kelly commented that between going to college and going off by herself to text with Bobby they hardly see Tori anymore. That's how it should be when she is becoming a young adult and creating a life of her own.

Edited June 17, 2016 by absolutelyido

[thelonerafter]

18 minutes ago, absolutelyido said:

 

I think Alyssa loves her family...in small doses. Sound's like Tori's beau lives in Florida, I wonder how Alyssa would like it if Tori married him and moved close to Alyssa? If Alyssa likes her peace and quiet, she may not be happy to have the chatty and boisterous Tori too close.

 

They said he goes to Pensacola Christian College (some reading about it here and here, neither are impeccable sources but I've heard a lot about it from acquaintances), I'm not entirely sure what area of central FL Alyssa lives in but it's usually between a 6-8 hour drive from Pensacola to central FL depending on what area you're going to. If Tori moved to Pensacola she'd definitely be closer to Alyssa than if she lived in TN, but they wouldn't exactly be neighbors. I would also doubt that he would want to move to central or south FL because, IMO, the culture in  north FL is much more southern and probably a better environment to be a fundamentalist in than in central or south FL. 

I actually like that the kids can move away from their hometown, it feels more like a regular family that way, where people move based on their spouses or jobs but still come back for the holidays. I don't have an issue with Alyssa not being thrilled to come back, if you're someone who likes peace and quiet and you've finally had an opportunity to have some, coming back to the Bates house is a big change.

[Absolom]

Ratings:  286K and a .07 rating.

[SongbirdHollow]

I think Alyssa is in Orlando.

[cereality]

I've said it before -- but it's becoming clear that the Bates' method of courting is pretty much dating. Sure they want to you formal terms like "getting to know you period" or "courting" to let the fundie world know that their kids are not sleeping around, but frankly there are people in America who date without sleeping around. I think dating is just where the older Bates kids have taken this process, and the parents know there's nothing they can do to stop it and if they revolt to hard, they'll either end up with a house full of unmarried kids like the Duggars or their kids will totally move away from religion, which I'm sure they don't want.

In Kelly's own explanations a few seasons ago, after Zach's breakup with whoever he courted initially, the family had to re think it's courting practices. When they had a grown 22 yr old telling them, he felt nervous sitting next to a girl and had no clue what to say -- I think it occurred to Gil and Kelly that it's not a great idea to have their kids getting married to some other kid bc the 2 of them are fundie with nothing else in common. That's when the whole "getting to know you" started, which the rest of America calls dating. Even then though, I recall Kelly specifically saying -- the getting to know you is to decide if you want to get married, and by the time you get to a courtship -- it's just a formality to give us enough time to plan a wedding.

Now fast forward a few years, and Nathan and his girlfriend are being VERY honest about the fact that they are courting and it may or may not get to marriage. In the "traditional" days -- the Bates would not have been ok with Nathan even asking her to court if both sides weren't 100% confident re a wedding so as not to tarnish anyone's reputation re giving away their heart or whatever.

And I'm actually impressed (and a bit shocked) that Nathan and Ashley, as well as the Bates are being so open about this. You'd think they'd sweep it under the rug as if it never happened. Ashley was very open about how they care for each other, but there have been conflicts. Let's be honest -- a Bronx Latina and a white southern boy are going to be VERY different, regardless of their faith. They were raised in such different environments -- I bet he is a patient, yes sir, no ma'am kind of guy; whereas she is loud and assertive -- which you kind of have to be to survive in NYC. And as much as she has said, she wouldn't mind leaving NYC to get some "elbow room," you know she is REALLY thinking about whether she can live in a 2000 person rural town in the south which is 2 hrs from any city. In her mind "elbow room" may mean she could be ok with a suburban life in NJ or Long Island -- not rural Tenn. Factor into that that he is/has pretty much taken over his father's business and has NO desire to live in NYC, and I'm sure they're both questioning whether they can compromise enough to make it work. Good for them for thinking about this rationally and not just jumping in bc they want a spouse, sex, and babies. And good for Gil and Kelly -- they seemed to be just as warm to Ashley as they were before -- running out to hug her when she arrived; not looking surprised/shocked when she spoke; not telling their son to drop her right this instant. I contrast this with the Duggar family, who you know would be blaming that hussy for defrauding their baby boy when she had no intention of marrying him and mocking her for (maybe) NOT wanting to give up her "sinful" NYC life. I honestly would love for it to work out between them with a compromise that has Nathan moving to the northeast -- not NYC but somewhere suburban where they'd both learn to compromise and he could pick up some tree/landscaping work.

[Clemgo3165]

They're only a half hour or so from Knoxville, and while it isn't NYC it is a decently sized city with a major university. They could live in the city and Nathan could commute to work, but I don't get the impression that he really wants a city life and I don't think Ashley would be happy out in the country.

It looks to me that maybe Gil and Kelly have added a second layer to the whole dating thing. Bobby was referred to as Tori's boyfriend several times with no mention of courting. Seems like courting is kind of a pre-engagement. An agreement to move toward marriage while having some time to iron out the details.

[cereality]

Yeah I'm surprised that Kelly said that all the older kids want to bring boyfriends and girlfriends to I Love You day. I thought they didn't do boyfriends and girlfriends?? I'm glad they're letting their kids be who they are though and socialize in normal ways. Only got to watch the first 10 min or so of the episode so will have to see how I Love You day really went/Bobby etc.

[Misslindsey]

It looked like Nathan and Ashley drove in by themselves (though I could have missed spotting a kid), when I am guessing Nathan picked her up from the airport. If this was Duggar universe they would need a chaperone. 

Also, when Bobby said that the whole Bates clan would probably end up reading the texts, I got the impression that it was because of nosy/gossiping parents or siblings and not that Tori and Bobby had to group text.

[Absolom]

2 hours ago, cereality said:

Yeah I'm surprised that Kelly said that all the older kids want to bring boyfriends and girlfriends to I Love You day. I thought they didn't do boyfriends and girlfriends??

After Zach's failed courtship, Kelly and Gil revisited the whole approach and now have a getting to know you stage and dating with a purpose rather than the jump from hi I'm Zach almost straight into courtship. 

[IndianPaintbrush]

13 hours ago, Misslindsey said:

It looked like Nathan and Ashley drove in by themselves (though I could have missed spotting a kid), when I am guessing Nathan picked her up from the airport. If this was Duggar universe they would need a chaperone. 

Also, when Bobby said that the whole Bates clan would probably end up reading the texts, I got the impression that it was because of nosy/gossiping parents or siblings and not that Tori and Bobby had to group text.

I'm certain the Bates still have a chaperone rule.  I think it was mentioned when Michaella and Brandon were courting that they could not be alone together without a chaperone.  Don't know about reading texts though.  

[cereality]

How did Bobby seem? Or did they not show enough of him to know? I agree Tori is not for everyone. Forget fundies, she isn't for everyone in the regular world either. She is loud, at times obnoxious, and at times a know it all. Maybe she's different and softer with a romantic partner -- who knows. I mean in a household of 21 children, if you want to be heard -- you probably do have to be loud and obnoxious at times, though she's taken it to an extreme compared to her siblings. When it's just her and Bobby though -- she has his full attention, so screaming isn't as important. I agree that she won't be the shy doting fundie wife who thinks her man is THE BEST -- but I think that's ok even amongst fundies; not everyone is going to be an Erin or a Michael who smile loving at their men every time they speak. I don't get the sense that Alyssa is like that at all and she and John seem to be doing fine.

[Misslindsey]

Quote

I'm certain the Bates still have a chaperone rule.  I think it was mentioned when Michaella and Brandon were courting that they could not be alone together without a chaperone.  Don't know about reading texts though.

Oh I agree that they probably still have chaperones. I just thought that maybe the ride to pick Ashley up and back that they might have been alone for a bit. Though I could have missed seeing another person with them. When Nathan and Ashley went on the carriage ride in NYC, Kelly did not seem concerned at all. I feel like with the Duggars Michelle would have sat in between them for the whole ride and Jim Bob would reiterate why in a smug, condescending way.

[Sew Sumi]

I imagine they counted the cameraman as a chaperone. Heck, even Benessa did this one time when they sat on a porchswing side-by-side before they were engaged. They actually broke the 4th wall to admit that was their arrangement at that moment. I missed how Nathan and Ashley arrived, but it's possible that they had one of those middle boys in the backseat, much as James often acted as Jerick's chaperone. 

All this to say that the last we've heard, Kelly has said that they still have chaperones, but unlike the Duggars, they're allowed to keep their distance, if requested. 

[IndianPaintbrush]

1 hour ago, cereality said:

How did Bobby seem? Or did they not show enough of him to know? 

We really didn't hear much from Bobby, but he made a joke about censoring his texts to Tori because the whole family might be reading them. He helped prep the meal and even sang a song with the guys. He seemed game for everything. And Tori wasn't nearly as obnoxious when he was around.

Edited June 18, 2016 by IndianPaintbrush

[Absolom]

Kelly has made the point that the couples need to talk without someone listening to every word.  She seems to believe that as long as they are in sight that's sufficient.

[Sew Sumi]

Right. That's how I've understood it. mean, the Bateses have been present, but HIDDEN  themselves in all the proposals I can remember. I don't remember John and Alyssa's, but they pretty much hid in the bushes far out of earshot for the other three. By contrast, Joy and Jana were pretty much right on top of Jill and Derick when he proposed. They were in plain sight, about what, twenty feet away, which is just wrong for such an intimate moment. 

Edited June 18, 2016 by Sew Sumi

[cereality]

I don't remember Alyssa and John's proposal at all. I remember with Chad and Erin -- Chad proposed in a gazebo and it seemed like the parents were pretty far away, not lingering near the gazebo. Brandon proposed to Michael at Great Falls in Va. -- they were right near the falls and as I remember it both set of parents were pretty far away like at the picnic tables or maybe even in the parking lot to that park; they couldn't have even seen Brandon and Michael, let alone heard anything over the rushing water falls.

I think their view of chaperones is much more liberal. I DO think they discourage the couple from being completely alone, but at the end of the day they realize these are adults and they can't their foot down. When Nathan said in Central Park that he only needed 2 seats in the carriage and wasn't bringing anyone, even if Gil or Kelly didn't like it in their heart of hearts-- they kept their mouth shut bc they knew there was nothing they could say to stop him. Same thing may have been true if Nathan said -- I'm going to go get Ashley at the airport and then we can all get lunch; they may not have been able to force him to take a young sibling. Around the house, it seems like they don't want boyfriends and girlfriends totally alone -- which makes sense. But there was a lot of footage of Chad hanging with Erin in the living room without a 7 yr old sitting between them listening to every word. But with 20 other people in the home, of course they can't just give up a main space -- so the couple hangs out and people are coming and going, so they aren't totally alone in a bedroom but also able to have private conversations; not so different than other American families.

[Sew Sumi]

And markedly different from the Duggars, where your chaperones are basically breathing down your neck. The only "privacy" Jill and Derick got was in that town square right before the proposal. Did those two even get five seconds to sidehug before they were gangrushed by Joy and Jana?

Zach proposed to Whitney on a beach in Florida. Again, the parents were on scene, but well out of sight. 

Contrast this to the Sarah Reith courtship proposal; everyone and their grandmother was right on top of them. How could Sarah have said no when the set up was so clear? None of these proposals are really surprises (okay, I'll give you Michael's); even Ashley knew it was coming during that visit to NYC, just not exactly when (and she was one of the few who wasn't all dolled up for the occasion). I remember Erin requiring the date so she could primp accordingly; she just didn't know the details. 

[andromeda331]

Even though their there and probably for chaperones. I always got the feeling Gil and especially Kelly is their because they want to be their when their daughters are proposed to and when their son proposes as a cool moment for a parent to be their to see.

[SongbirdHollow]

17 hours ago, IndianPaintbrush said:

We really didn't hear much from Bobby, but he made a joke about censoring his texts to Tori because the whole family might be reading them. He helped prep the meal and even sang a song with the guys. He seemed game for everything. And Tori wasn't nearly as obnoxious when he was around.

"Game" is EXACTLY the word I would use. I was pleasantly surprised.

[cereality]

I think either consciously or subconsciously, Gil and Kelly realize how DESPARATE the kids in this cult are to get married. The boys just want to get it on or even make out -- since they can hardly touch a girl until she's a wife. The girls just want to be adults, which doesn't happen in this cult unless you snag a husband and bear children. With such desperation at play, both sides are on super polite behavior at all times; the girls esp. will say anything the guy wants to hear bc they fear that a Prince Charming like Chad will walk away if he isn't happy. Yet marriage comes with some serious conversations and issues. I'm sure Nathan and Ashley are having some serious conversations and/or personal doubts bc while they really seem to love each other, can she REALLY adjust to Rocky Top and does she REALLY want to? I'm sure Erin had to work up some serious nerve to discuss with Prince Charming that she wanted to finish school and live near HER family when married, as that isn't done in their cult and Chad could easily have been offended, walked away, and walked down the aisle with another girl in under 6 months. These discussions are hard enough to have privately esp. when both sides have reasons to be fake. Now imagine how much harder they'd be with Lawson around saying -- what of course she HAS TO move her; or Tori saying -- well she won't be a good wife if she doesn't want to compromise on day one; or Warden saying -- you can't even control your girlfriend. I think for that reason maybe Gil and Kelly realized that if their kids have any real chance of even sort of knowing the person they marry, they need some privacy -- whether that means talking alone on the living room couch; sitting by themselves out on a date; or texting without the whole family receiving each message. Otherwise you very likely end up in an Anna Duggar situation where you marry a guy with a whole secret life and have no clues at all bc all you know is what he said to your daddy which was -- I sinned when I was 14 but it's ok bc I've found Jesus -- and daddy portrays it to you as -- he stole a pack of baseball cards but he's repented.

[Kiss my mutt]

Do the kids kiss after they're engaged or at the altar?

[Steff]

31 minutes ago, Kiss my mutt said:

Do the kids kiss after they're engaged or at the altar?

Kelly & Gil state that they would prefer for the kids to wait & kiss at the wedding, but Zack & Whitney have admitted to not waiting & the world didn't stop & the rules didn't change because of it.  They were praised for being honest & letting Gil & Kelly know that they didn't wait. 

[Kiss my mutt]

Thanks @Steff. :)

[Spencer Hastings]

I started this episode expecting to be a complete cynic about Love Day but oh goodness, they made it really cute!  I love that they include the whole family, not just the married couples.  It really seemed like a way for everyone to feel appreciated.  Those child hugs got me.

Michaela said something along the lines of "being married at home is better than being single at home."  I didn't know whether to feel sorry for her or punch her.  On the one hand, she's probably treated more like an adult now that she's married.  That's where they find their validation. On the other hand, she totally strikes me as the kind of girl who would look down on you and say "When you're married/have a baby/own a house you'll understand."

Edit:. Not to compare them too much to the Duggars, one thing I like about this family is that they laugh. Like, real laughter.  Any Duggar laugh is either forced, stifled, or out of nervousness.  I don't think I've really heard or seen any of them bent over, tears leaking out like the Bates parents/children.

Edited June 21, 2016 by Spencer Hastings

[LZ1982]

On 6/18/2016 at 5:36 PM, Absolom said:

Kelly has made the point that the couples need to talk without someone listening to every word.  She seems to believe that as long as they are in sight that's sufficient.

I remember once on her blog, she said that when a dating couple goes out to dinner, for example, the chaperones will be at another table at the same restaurant. So two or three of the younger kids would go together and enjoy their own meal/conversation. They are not sitting at the same table hanging on every word, like with the Duggar kids.

[JessDVD]

I haven't been watching because our cable still doesn't include UP, but I always hoped that those times when they showed courting Duggars' chaperones staring creepily at them, were just for the sake of the cameras, and generally, the Duggar approach is more like what they show for the Bateses. My observations from the posts here and I stopped following the Duggars' boards, but from them too, make me think that the Bateses have a significantly more favorable edit, and probably a better PR person also.

[Hero]

They don't kiss while courting, correct? 

I feel some kind of physical contact,  besides hand- holding, would benefit them. Dating does not always have to lead to sex, but just holding hands would make me so frustrated. I feel like the reason why all these fundie couples jump into marriage is to have sex. 

[Kiss my mutt]

I don't have UPtv either or a tv for that matter but I imagine they'd get a better edit on a Christian channel anyway as they want to promote Christian values. I don't remember TLC giving them an unflattering edit ever though either. 

[Sew Sumi]

2 hours ago, Suzy123 said:

They don't kiss while courting, correct? 

I feel some kind of physical contact,  besides hand- holding, would benefit them. Dating does not always have to lead to sex, but just holding hands would make me so frustrated. I feel like the reason why all these fundie couples jump into marriage is to have sex. 

Zach and Whitney kissed. Even Michael and Brandon hugged, I mean REALLY hugged, even before they were engaged. I think Chad and Erin just held hands and side hugged. We've seen Nathan and Ashley hug several times, and I recall some touching beyond holding hands with John and Alyssa. Unlike the Duggars, when Kelly says the couples make their own rules, I believe her. 

[JessDVD]

I don't know that I'd say TLC gave the Duggars an unflattering edit, per se, but I felt like there were a lot of moments, especially in the later years, in which maybe they didn't intend to make various Duggars look looney, but they succeeded, bad. I'm thinking of the Ben & Jessa courtship "discussion" in the mudroom, which was so obviously a re-enactment, yet they didn't take the time to make it look like they didn't do something like, "Guys, we only have 15 more minutes of filming time and we haven't had the courtship discussion. Every other room is trashed, let's just film this as fast as we can in the mudroom".

I've never had any personal involvement with reality TV but I assume that they are editing hours and hours of footage into a 22 or 44 minute episode, and so they pick and choose what they're going to put in there. Choosing to put Michelle's sanctimonious "Well, they certainly aren't going to be doing THAT again" after Jill and Derrick's (gasp) frontal hug in the airport, instead of some footage of Michelle laughing and smiling, or just leaving it at Jill's "maybe we got a little carried away" or whatever she said, and Derrick's "I enjoyed it!", was something they didn't have to do, but they chose to do. That's what I mean about the Bateses getting a more favorable edit. So far, I haven't seen, or read mentioned here, either of Gil and Kelly being shown making sanctimonious comments about what their adult children choose to do, or hokey mudroom courtship request re-enactments and so on.

[cereality]

Honestly I think Gil and Kelly are just as fundie as JB and Michelle. In their perfect world, there would be 3 month courtships with handholding and side hugs and NOTHING else. Yet Gil and Kelly -- on all issues including faith and courting -- realize that their kids are adults, so now they have to sit back, trust that they raised them right and that the kids also believe in their faith, let them live their lives -- while providing the input you'd provide to an adult child, not while forbidding as you'd do for an actual child. I think they realize that some kids will hug and maybe even kiss their boy/girlfriends. However, I think they choose not to make a big issue about it or make comments that'll embarrass said child in front of his/her boy/girlfriend. JB and Michelle seem to think it's ok to treat 20+ yr olds as preteens with sanctimonious statements like "well they won't be doing THAT again" or Michelle turning to JB in a panicked way saying "Dad -- LOOK LOOK" when Jessa grabbed Ben's hand during a prayer, fully expecting JB to put a stop to it.

Zach and Whitney did kiss while courting. Erin and Chad gave an interview saying they hadn't kissed, with Chad interrupting and saying "but we have thought about it a LOT" and Whitney agreeing. Nathan and Ashley are particularly touchy feely; don't know if they're kissing or not, but certainly real hugging and they definitely lean into each other like boyfriend and girlfriend; even when the family was sitting on the couch talking about the logistics of valentines day, Ashley was sitting in front of Nathan leaning into him so their entire bodies were touching -- something you'd naturally expect to see boyfriends and girlfriends doing and not even give it a second though. In his heart of hearts did Gil love that -- maybe not; yet he knew better to call out his 22 yr old son in front of his girlfriend and his entire family.

I think some of the Bates kids will go fundie lite -- it's possible Alyssa and John already are; and I think Erin and Chad gave an interview saying they no longer follow Gothard. I think the Bates parents though trust that they raised their kids right and aren't sweating bullets about their kids altering their practices in minor ways.

[Hero]

I wonder how Gil and Kelly reacted when Zach and Whitney Kissed before marriage? 

[IndianPaintbrush]

They talked about it on the show.  They weren't thrilled, but they recognized it wasn't the end of the world either.  Mostly they seemed happy that Zach & Whit were honest with them.

I remember the preacher who performed Bin & Jessa's wedding saying there's nothing wrong with kissing before marriage.  It's a completely arbitrary "rule" with no basis in the Bible, and should be a personal decision.