Season 7: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[bubble sparkly]

I don't see why Jon has to choose between being a Stark and being a Targ / being with Dany.  Why can't he be both?  Of course he will likely be shocked when the truth comes out and face some kind of identity crisis about not being Ned's son.  But at the end of the day, Ned Stark is still his father, just adoptive as opposed to biological.  And I would imagine Jon would still feel like Arya, Bran and Sansa are his siblings, just like they would be quick to assure him he's still their brother.

Likewise, Rhaegar is definitely a douche for leaving his wife and kids to run off with a teenager, but he doesn't appear to be an evil monster.  Bran will be able to relay that RL were in love and there was no rape/kidnapping, and Dany has some stories from Selmy that she can pass on about Rhaegar being a music-loving gentle soul who didn't like killing.  So Ned and the Stark kids are still his family, and his bio-dad, while not being the best dude going around, is far from the worst guy in Westeros.  I don't see this as being some insurmountable situation that Jon can never overcome.

Also, it seems like Jon and Dany are pretty much in love with each other by the end of s7.  They might not have said the words but their actions suggest they are smitten kittens.  Dany risks her life and the life of her dragons in ep 6 because she is frantic with worry about Jon.  She does in fact lose Viseryion but doesn't appear to resent Jon in any way for this.  Meanwhile, in ep 7 Jon publicly declares for Dany at the dragon pit, then Dany tells him she can't have kids and he tells her that doesn't matter to him.  Then boatsex, which will probably lead to miracle baby in s8.  Given the apparent depth of their feelings, and a likely baby added to the mix, I can't see anything other than death keeping Jon and Dany from being with each other.

[screamin]

I agree that Rhaegar being a douche won't have any influence over Jon's attachment to Dany - just that the loss of Ned as a father with a more disappointing figure taking his place will hurt him a lot.

Edited August 13, 2017 by screamin

[glowbug]

Rhaegar was 24 years old when he died so definitely not in his thirties when he ran off with Lyanna. More mature than a teenager but not as mature as a 30 year old. I also wouldn't call Westeros peaceful during Aerys' reign, although certainly more peaceful than during Robert's Rebellion or the War of Five Kings. King Robert's reign was actually more peaceful than Aerys' was from my understanding. And Aerys was a ticking time bomb waiting to go off. If Rhaegar hadn't run off with Lyanna and hadn't managed to depose his father, it's likely Aerys would have done something to start a war. While Rhaegar and Lyanna's actions were the catalyst that set him off, it was actually Aerys who caused the war by killing Rickon and Brandon Stark and then calling for Robert and Ned's deaths as well. If Aerys had actually been sane and not killed Rickon and Brandon the war may not even have happened. While I fully believe Rhaegar was selfish and reckless, I wouldn't lay the entire war at his feet either. 

Jon is definitely going to have an identity crisis when he finds out who his real father is, or at least he should. So much of his identity is wrapped up in being Ned Stark's son and a bastard that finding out that neither of these things is true will have profound effect on him. Finding out that Ned lied to him about something so important is going to be hurtful, although he at least can take some solace in the fact that Ned was trying to protect him and that if his true identity were known he likely would have been killed. I think Ned had good intentions but it was wrong of him to let Jon commit his life to the Night's Watch without knowing who he really was. If he was old enough to make that kind of decision for himself then he was old enough to know the truth about who his parents were. In my opinion, the fact that Rhaegar was less honorable than Ned is probably going to be the least of his concerns (assuming he learns that Rhaegar did not kidnap and rape his mother because believing he's the child of rape would obviously be very traumatic). 

[theschnauzers]

I've wondered if Master Aemon might have known who Jon Snow actually was and whether that was a motivation to his supporting Jon's elevation as Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. Knowing that Jon was still half House Stark and the dire wolf connection, and secretly was half House Targaryen, and its blood of Dragons plus his sense, even as old and blind as he approached the end of his life, that Jon was capable as a leader would better explain his actions from the time Jon arrived at the wall.

[Colorful Mess]

5 hours ago, bubble sparkly said:

I don't see why Jon has to choose between being a Stark and being a Targ / being with Dany.  Why can't he be both?  

♫ Shiny Happy People holding hands ♫ *sings REM at you*

He’s not going to be revealed as the hidden prince, brood about it a bit, and then make out with the princess–that’s a page right out of the badly written Tolkien knockoffs. You ask why can’t he have both parts to his identity - again characters can NEVER have both things they want. If they even try, they're punished for it. See: Jon trying to save Arya, Winterfell, and Hardhome all at the same time.

C’mon, we know this jerk author too well. Some dictator is probably pestering him to come work in his torture chambers. He relentlessly punishes his characters for things they shouldn’t be doing, or he drops them into situations where they regret they were ever born and psychologically damages them if they have the audacity to live another day. He forces them to question their identity at every point – and they end up so miserable by the end they don’t even know who they are anymore. He already did this with Theon, Jaime, Sansa, Arya – Dany and Jon are next. If we are optimistic, and they do recover, it’s not going to be with their bestest bae by their side.

If there isn’t a duty vs. love conflict over his identity that forces him to return to his roots, then it will come at the end of the series in a Nissa Nissa situation. However, I feel like it would be ridiculously dumb and nonsensical on screen, which is why I prefer some other conflict related to Who He Is.

Let’s be clear: If they are going to intercut their sex scene with Rhaegar and Lyanna, then it implies a doomed romance anyway. He’s being a total idiot by doing whatever goes down with Dany. Jon falling in love with Dany and them being so into each other will probably have disastrous consequences for everyone else around them. I don’t know what those consequences are exactly –we can speculate. This is why Sansa told him not to do anything stupid like Ned and Robb. If she knew his parentage at that point she could have thrown Rhaegar in there too.

I don’t want Jon to be stupid or to repeat the mistakes of those other idiots.

Edited August 13, 2017 by Colorful Mess

[bubble sparkly]

35 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

Let’s be clear: If they are going to intercut their sex scene with Rhaegar and Lyanna, then it implies a doomed romance anyway

I don't think that's necessarily true.  The show seems to be presenting R+L as True Love, and we will be seeing their wedding intercut with boatsex.  That could be implying that J+D= True Love as well, perhaps this time with a different ending.  After all, neither party has a wife and kids, and there are no fake kidnapping rumours being bandied about.  I have seen it suggested elsewhere that maybe the story will be that R+L's love started a war, and J+D's love ended one.

 

35 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

He’s being a total idiot by doing whatever goes down with Dany. Jon falling in love with Dany and them being so into each other will probably have disastrous consequences for everyone else around them

 Dany and Jon are both single, consenting adults though, with no romantic ties to anyone else.  This is not like Rhaegar ditching his wife and kids, or Robb breaking a promise to the Freys.  What does anyone really have to complain about if they do become involved?  Possibly those whiny Northern Lords will moan about Jon bending the knee to a Targ, but Dany is using her dragons and joining the WW fight so it seems kind of silly at the current time.  And if it bothers them so much they could always un-crown him KITN and declare Sansa QITN I guess, and she could un-bend if she wanted to.

I actually think Dany and Jon getting married would be in the North's best interest anyway.  Marriage alliances are a common thing in Westeros, and Dany acknowledged she would need to make one when she left Daario behind.  D+J marriage means the North's interests would be looked after in King's Landing, plus Sansa would be named Warden and presumably left pretty much to her own devices to rule relatively autonomously.  Sems like a win-win situation for the North.

Quote

He’s not going to be revealed as the hidden prince, brood about it a bit, and then make out with the princess–that’s a page right out of the badly written Tolkien knockoffs

Quote

 

Isn't this exactly what happened in GRRM's original outline though?  Only with Jon and Arya instead of Jon and Dany.  I think it has been mentioned here before that JA were supposed to be tormented by their feelings, then R+L=J comes to light, and JA end up happily ever after as they are cousins not siblings.

Edited August 13, 2017 by bubble sparkly

[anamika]

1 hour ago, bubble sparkly said:

 What does anyone really have to complain about if they do become involved? 

Jon x Sansa shippers wanting Jon to get together with Sansa by giving up Dany and become a true Stark by marrying Sansa. 

1 hour ago, Colorful Mess said:

 See: Jon trying to save Arya, Winterfell, and Hardhome all at the same time.

All of which was not on the show which is not interested in giving Jon conflict moments - ex:  his NW desertion.  He will accept and deal with the news of his parents in a 10 minute scene and then it's onward with the plot of fighting the WW, bad-ass sword fights and dragon riding.

I would have loved to read Jon's POV in the books when he finds out about his parents, but sadly that's not happening. With only 6 hours left next season,  I don't think the show will have the time to explore it to the extent that we are doing on this thread.

Edited August 13, 2017 by anamika

[MadMouse]

47 minutes ago, anamika said:

Jon x Sansa shippers wanting Jon to get together with Sansa by giving up Dany and become a true Stark by marrying Sansa. 

That's why I encourage everyone to my theory of Jon marrying both Dany and Sansa. It fulfills Rheagar's dream of his son recreating the Conquer and sister wives. If Dany wants the Targ dynasty to continue because she believes herself barren (which I don't think she is) it solves that problem. If she isn't barren Jon and Sansa's kids could rule the North as Starks, since Bran isn't going to be producing any heirs and that would leave only Rickon. Hell if anything happened to Edmure and his kid Jon and Sansa's kids could rule the Riverlands too. That's two Kingdoms tied directly to the throne. And there's the added irony because Cat said she never feared Jon but his grandchildren. Now his children would be her grandchildren. 

[Meredith Quill]

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[SimoneS]

4 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

Let’s be clear: If they are going to intercut their sex scene with Rhaegar and Lyanna, then it implies a doomed romance anyway. 

I don't believe that intercutting those scenes indicate a doomed romance for Jon and Daenerys at all. Rather the show is going for a dramatic cliffhanger by setting up a potential conflict for them as Jon is revealed to the audience as a Targaryen and a rival for Daenerys' claim to the Iron Throne. This along with the NK using Viserion to destroy the Wall is merely a way to generate off season buzz and anticipation for season 8.  

[Eyes High]

3 hours ago, MadMouse said:

That's why I encourage everyone to my theory of Jon marrying both Dany and Sansa. It fulfills Rheagar's dream of his son recreating the Conquer and sister wives. If Dany wants the Targ dynasty to continue because she believes herself barren (which I don't think she is) it solves that problem. If she isn't barren Jon and Sansa's kids could rule the North as Starks, since Bran isn't going to be producing any heirs and that would leave only Rickon. Hell if anything happened to Edmure and his kid Jon and Sansa's kids could rule the Riverlands too. That's two Kingdoms tied directly to the throne. And there's the added irony because Cat said she never feared Jon but his grandchildren. Now his children would be her grandchildren. 

The Season 7 spoilers strongly hint that there will be a Jonerys baby. Even if Dany were truly barren, though, Sansa wouldn't be so cynical as to agree to play the brood mare third wheel in Jon and Dany's epic romance.

[Edith]

5 hours ago, bubble sparkly said:

I don't think that's necessarily true.  The show seems to be presenting R+L as True Love, and we will be seeing their wedding intercut with boatsex.  That could be implying that J+D= True Love as well, perhaps this time with a different ending.  After all, neither party has a wife and kids, and there are no fake kidnapping rumours being bandied about.  I have seen it suggested elsewhere that maybe the story will be that R+L's love started a war, and J+D's love ended one.

Actually J+D are going to start the long night, the wall breaks because of them.

[Edith]

Just now, doram said:

How?

Wight Viserion is the one who melts part of the Wall, breaking the spells that keep away NK and his army from Westeros 

[SimoneS]

4 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Why not? Aragorn and Arwen fell in love, married, had a baby and ruled together in love happily ever after, and GRRM has said on several occasions that he is going for the tone of the LOTR ending with ASOIAF's ending.

"Not something GRRM would write" isn't much of a guidepost, since GRRM hasn't written anything like ASOIAF before. Those fantasy works which GRRM has cited as inspiration for ASOIAF--the Memory, Sorrow and Thorn trilogy and LOTR--both ended with a marriage between two characters who loved each other resulting in a prosperous, happy reign. Even the historical Wars of the Roses, which inspired GRRM, ended with a marriage that proved fruitful and reasonably happy as far as political marriages go. 

Exactly. I am taking this over the "end game" thread.

[Edith]

1 minute ago, doram said:

But how's that caused by Boatsex?

I say nothing about Boatsex. I'm just pointing out that is not only R+L that started a war, J and D are going to do it too. 

[tangerine95]

Wouldn't the war with the white walkers have started no matter what Dany and Jon do?I don't think it has any parallel to them at all,the wall would fall some way for sure.R/L actions actually led to a war so I think its different.

I really don't think Jon and Dany are going to get a happy ending but I don't think its going to be a gross you're my aunt and a Targ,we're done type of thing either.I can see either of them dying or even both of them which is how I think their relationship will end.I don't think they would bother getting them together and having them fall in love so late in the game just to have them separate over identity issues or something.

[Edith]

19 minutes ago, doram said:

I'm missing something here. How did J+D start the WW war? Wasn't the WW war already going to happen? Isn't that what Jon and Davos have been preaching to Dany that she needs to abandon her war with the Lannisters to fight the WW? 

I said they're going to start the long night. Yes fight against the WW was going to happen no matter what, but there's a difference between a war beyond the wall that fighting the NK plus wight dragon in Westeros with a terrible darkness in the midst of a great winter. 

Edited August 13, 2017 by Edith

[Miss Dee]

I guess I'm not seeing the connection between Jon and Dany to the Long Night, @Edith. Do you mean that Jon and Dany go on the offensive against the WW, and that's what starts the Long Night?

[Edith]

5 minutes ago, Miss Dee said:

I guess I'm not seeing the connection between Jon and Dany to the Long Night, @Edith. Do you mean that Jon and Dany go on the offensive against the WW, and that's what starts the Long Night?

The long night starts when the WW cross the wall, right? The wall is going to melt because wight Viserion breaks the spells that keeps away the death from the world of the living. 

Edited August 13, 2017 by Edith

[Miss Dee]

That's an interesting theory...imagine Jon's devastation if Sam finds out in those books that the WW could never have breached the wall had he and others not set things in motion....

But I suppose that doesn't take into account Bran's connection with the Night King. Too bad.

Edited August 13, 2017 by Miss Dee

[YaddaYadda]

6 minutes ago, doram said:

In the previous season they seemed to be setting up that Bran's connection would let the Night King cross the Wall when he did but that was dropped. Or maybe it was never intended but it certainly seemed so.

They did seem to do that, but I wonder if having a dragon doesn't just make things go quicker. The NK and his army are on the march and on their way to Eastwatch, so it's not like they're going to stop there because they need a dragon to melt a hole in the Wall.

I'm not a fan of the wight dragon. I'd rather Cersei had managed to kill one dragon instead of this.

[anamika]

35 minutes ago, Edith said:

The long night starts when the WW cross the wall, right? The wall is going to melt because wight Viserion breaks the spells that keeps away the death from the world of the living. 

Are you saying that the dragons should never be deployed against the WW?

Dany uses her dragons and one of them got taken down. You can't blame Jon and Dany for this, as it's not possible to predict what happens during battle.

[Edith]

9 minutes ago, Miss Dee said:

That's an interesting theory...imagine Jon's devastation if Sam finds out in those books that the WW could never have breached the wall had he and others not set things in motion....

But I suppose that doesn't take into account Bran's connection with the Night King. Too bad.

Quote

The Wall was constructed along the northernmost isthmus of northern Westeros to bar their return, a massive fortification standing seven hundred feet high and stretching from one side of the continent to the other. Legend says that the Wall was infused with powerful magic spells by the Children of the Forest that prevent the White Walkers from crossing it. The ancient order of the Night's Watch was founded to defend the Wall should the White Walkers return to invade the realms of men once more

Quote

The Horn of Joramun? No. Call it the Horn of Darkness. If the Wall falls, night falls as well, the long night that never ends. It must not happen, will not happen!

Quote

While some free folk want Mance to bring down the Wall with the horn, Mance resists for fear that nothing could then stop the Others.

The Nk and his army can't cross the Wall, not without help. The theory last season was Bran after the NK touched him but the wall is still standing, in fact not all the wall is going to fall, only the part the Viserion is going to melt.

[anamika]

21 minutes ago, Edith said:

The Nk and his army can't cross the Wall, not without help. The theory last season was Bran after the NK touched him but the wall is still standing, in fact not all the wall is going to fall, only the part the Viserion is going to melt.

What if the sea is frozen around the wall. Can't they just walk around it?

In the books, they seem to be capable of surviving under water. In which case can't they swim around it? Then there's the horn which can bring down the wall. Maybe there's something else the WWs can do, which no one knows about.

As @Doram said, If they are never getting through the wall, why the hell would Jon or anyone be so worried about them. Can't they just wait them out till summer gets there.

Drogon and Jon!

https://twitter.com/GameOfThrones/status/896748700587905024

No sign of Viserion or Rhaegal nearby. I guess it's just the one dragon meeting Jon.

Edited August 13, 2017 by anamika

[YaddaYadda]

2 minutes ago, anamika said:

As @Doram said, If they are never getting through the wall, why the hell would Jon or anyone be so worried about them. Can't they just wait them out till summer gets there.

We know there have been long winters in Westeros. We know that one of the most "recent" winters lasted six years, that this summer that just ended lasted ten years already. So there's got to be something different about this specific winter, no? The Others didn't go away, they have been very active for centuries upon centuries, that much we know from the Night's King story. Craster has been giving his sons away for who knows how many years, and Coldhands has been dead for a very long time, killed by the Others or wights.

It just seems like these guys have been preparing for this for a really, really long time, and if that's the case, then there's something special about this winter if they have come so far south that the wildlings are fleeing in droves. Mance Rayder has been working to get everyone together almost since he deserted the Night's Watch so that they may have a chance at surviving.

It just seems like whatever is happening, this is the winter that has been chosen for the invasion. 

[Edith]

6 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

We know there have been long winters in Westeros. We know that one of the most "recent" winters lasted six years, that this summer that just ended lasted ten years already. So there's got to be something different about this specific winter, no? The Others didn't go away, they have been very active for centuries upon centuries, that much we know from the Night's King story. Craster has been giving his sons away for who knows how many years, and Coldhands has been dead for a very long time, killed by the Others or wights.

It just seems like these guys have been preparing for this for a really, really long time, and if that's the case, then there's something special about this winter if they have come so far south that the wildlings are fleeing in droves. Mance Rayder has been working to get everyone together almost since he deserted the Night's Watch so that they may have a chance at surviving.

It just seems like whatever is happening, this is the winter that has been chosen for the invasion. 

There's a theory that the NK might be a greenseer just like Bran and that's why he was able to sense and touched him last season. Like that vision that Bran has back in season 3 when we see Jojen for the first time.

[YaddaYadda]

4 minutes ago, Edith said:

There's a theory that the NK might be a greenseer just like Bran and that's why he was able to sense and touched him last season. Like that vision that Bran has back in season 3 when we see Jojen for the first time.

The show will never flesh that out. Or they will and I'll just be very shocked.

[Edith]

1 hour ago, anamika said:

Are you saying that the dragons should never be deployed against the WW?

Dany uses her dragons and one of them got taken down. You can't blame Jon and Dany for this, as it's not possible to predict what happens during battle.

You're right, there was no way of predicting what was going to happen but just because they couldn't know doesn't make them blameless. Even good actions have horrible consequences.

I don't know, I think this is a discussion for the season 8 thread but if the NK takes down one dragon so easy, what is going to stop him for no killing another one and having two wight dragons in his army?  

[TarotQueen]

6 minutes ago, doram said:

Awww, Drogon's meeting his new step-daddy. :)

Who was his old step-daddy?

[Edith]

13 minutes ago, doram said:

OK, I can see the link between the Long Night and the Wall... but how again is this Jon & Dany as a couple's fault?

 

This, exactly. I can maybe squint and see that it was Jon's fault because he created the situation by trying to prevent it (like Oedipus), but I don't see how it's the fault or consequence of Jon & Dany falling in love...? 

Dany goes beyond the Wall with her three dragons to save Jon. According to friki, the scene in Dragonstone is going to show a very concern Dany for Jon and then risking her children lives after receiving Jon's letter. 

Edited August 13, 2017 by Edith

[Edith]

26 minutes ago, doram said:

But that still leads back to "if Jon hadn't gone around trying to recruit Dany's dragons + capture a wight to prove that the WW are real and recruit Cersei's army, then this won't have happened?"

Jorah was part of that team, and that's another person that she cares about deeply whose life is in danger because Jon basically created this situation. 

It's not, from what I can see, the same direct cause/effect of R+L where Rhaegar's kidnapping Lyanna directly leads to a war. This seems more like Jon being the one that doomed the world because he didn't let Sleeping White Walkers Lie. 

There was not kidnapping between R+L. She went willingly and I doubt she thought oh my father and big brother are going to get kill because of this. She just went without thinking of the consequences of her actions because she was in love. Rhaegar on the other hand had a more prominent responsibility in the war.

And while J+D are different because Jon just wants to save the world (although R, apparently, was obsessed with PTWP prophecy, hence why he might've look for a Ice bride) Dany going with her three dragons to save Jon (and yes Jon is the reason according to Friki even Tyrion is going to mention how concerned she is for Jon) brings consequences that allow the NK to melt the wall. She's not thinking that one of her dragons is going to get kill or anything, she just want to save him even though Tyrion is going to tell her how dangerous it is.

Edited August 13, 2017 by Edith

[Katsullivan]

When Dany refuses to take Jon at his word, leave her war and take her dragons and army to the North to fight the White Walkers - she's an entitled bitch who doesn't care about Westeros.

 

When Dany takes her dragons, risks her own life and theirs to help Jon fight the White Walkers - she's the stupid bitch who caused the Long Night.

 

 

---stares at the camera like in The Office---

[Edith]

13 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

When Dany refuses to take Jon at his word, leave her war and take her dragons and army to the North to fight the White Walkers - she's an entitled bitch who doesn't care about Westeros.

 

When Dany takes her dragons, risks her own life and theirs to help Jon fight the White Walkers - she's the stupid bitch who caused the Long Night.

 

 

---stares at the camera like in The Office---

Stupid bitch? Wait what? When did I call Dany a stupid bitch? I'm sorry but that's not the tone this discussion is going...

@doram maybe I'm failing to explain myself because English is not my first language. For me, and this is my opinion, Jon and Dany, without knowing, are going to make possible for the NK to bring the long night to Westeros. Is her dragon, that she brings north of the wall to save Jon, that melt the wall.

Have a good day! ;)

Edited August 13, 2017 by Edith

[YaddaYadda]

I can't blame Jon or Dany for what's happening. The only thing it does is precipitate the NK and his army getting south of the Wall.

Jon is trying to bring everyone together to fight, he is the person with the most knowledge because he was at Hardhome, he has been mining the dragonglass. Meanwhile you have asshats like Glover who are questioning his leadership because his ass isn't parked at Winterfell. 

As far as Dany goes, Melisandre told her she had a role to play in the wars to come and Jon told her he needed her help and her dragons, so that's what she's doing, taking her dragons to help the other person who has a role to play in this war. 

Of course, the NK ending up with a dragon is shocking, but we need to even out the playing field. NK is going to be next year's Cersei who is last year's Ramsay. 

People make mistakes, and Jon and Dany are doing what they feel is right when he goes beyond the Wall and she comes to rescue him and everyone else. 

The NK and his army are already on the march, whether they have a dragon with them to clear a path through the Wall for them, or Bran's mark was what was going to bring the Wall down, it was always going to be a matter of time before the NK succeeded in getting south of the Wall.

I'm pretty sure it will be different in the book. I think he'll pass under the Wall instead of through it.

[SimoneS]

5 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

Of course, the NK ending up with a dragon is shocking, but we need to even out the playing field. 

This is basically how I view everything that has happened this season so far. Daenerys is practically invincible when she arrives at Westeros with three dragons, two massive armies, and thousands of ships, and three powerful allies. So the writers have basically spent this season manufacturing losses for her to give her enemies a credible shot at defeating her. With her forces, Dany could destroy both her main enemies, Cersei and the Night King, in a few hours. She doesn't even need to ally with Jon or the north or Cersei to defeat the NK. With the dragons alone, Dany could burn the NK and his army to the ground causing them to scatter so that the Unsullied and the Dothraki can pick off them off. In fact, a more sound military strategy would have been to Dany to prioritize defeating Cersei  and Jaime by burning down the Red Keep so she could incorporate the Lannister bannerman and the rest of the Westeros bannermen into her army before marching north. Also, Dany should have based her forces at the Reach where all the food and the other resources that her army needs are located instead of on Dragonstone, an island that requires ships to ferry soldiers and food.

Edited August 14, 2017 by SimoneS

[YaddaYadda]

23 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

This is basically how I view everything that has happened this season so far. Daenerys is practically invincible when she arrives at Westeros with three dragons, two massive armies, and thousands of ships, and three powerful allies. So the writers have basically spent this season manufacturing losses for her to give her enemies a credible shot at defeating her. With her forces, Dany could destroy both her main enemies, Cersei and the Night King, in a few hours. She doesn't even need to ally with Jon or the north or Cersei to defeat the NK. With the dragons alone, Dany could burn the NK and his army to the ground causing them to scatter so that the Unsullied and the Dothraki can pick off them off. In fact, a more sound military strategy would have been to Dany to prioritize defeating Cersei  and Jaime by burning down the Red Keep so she could incorporate the Lannister bannerman and the rest of the Westeros bannermen into her army before marching north. Also, Dany should have based her forces at the Reach where all the food and the other resources that her army needs are located instead of on Dragonstone, an island that requires ships to ferry soldiers and food.

That's what happens when a lot of the book plots get cut away, they have to manufacture this. I'm assuming that Dany will be taking losses when she finally comes to Westeros. By the time Dany turns her attention north, she will have lost men in her army, maybe a dragon.

[SeanC]

Notable changes from outline to show:
- They have Jaime say he was trying to kill Dany, rather than Drogon, which is a much better explanation.
- The initial Winterfell setpiece where Arya’s suspicions are aroused is somehow both less over-the-top than it seemed on the page (I’m particularly glad the Ramsay mention didn’t make it in) and even less justified than it appeared on the page as a result of how brief it was.
 

[SimoneS]

So I was wrong and Varys was referring to Dany. He and Tyrion have short memories. Tyrion most likely survives, but hopefully Cersei finishes off Varys. I wonder what Dany does next episode. I thought she won't appear, but she is in the preview.

[Oscirus]

14 minutes ago, SeanC said:

 

Notable changes from outline to show:
- They have Jaime say he was trying to kill Dany, rather than Drogon, which is a much better explanation.
- The initial Winterfell setpiece where Arya’s suspicions are aroused is somehow both less over-the-top than it seemed on the page (I’m particularly glad the Ramsay mention didn’t make it in) and even less justified than it appeared on the page as a result of how brief it was.
 

Also no Dany accusing Tyrion of wanting to conspire with the lannisters.

[anamika]

2 hours ago, SeanC said:

- The initial Winterfell setpiece where Arya’s suspicions are aroused is somehow both less over-the-top than it seemed on the page (I’m particularly glad the Ramsay mention didn’t make it in) and even less justified than it appeared on the page as a result of how brief it was.
 

For whatever reason, despite mentioning that Sansa really wants to rule the North in the scripts, they don't seem to want to commit to it on the screen. They really did frame it like Arya was being unnecessarily paranoid while Sansa was being reasonable. Such an injustice to Arya as a character, but after the way they threw Jon under the bus last season to prop up Sansa, I am not surprised anymore. Just disappointed. One of the reasons I dislike show Sansa - shitty writing for characters around her.

Plus, Sophie Turner's poor acting and emoting also plays a role here - her blank face does not really tell us anything, leading fans to unfairly accuse Arya of being 'Psycho'.  Maisie Williams on the other hand is just so good that we can make out everything she is feeling with no dialogue.

Glad the Ramsay line did not make it in. Even the writers must have realized how ridiculous that would have been considering that he had the most loyal allies instead of assholes like Glover.

Edited August 14, 2017 by anamika

[SeanC]

5 minutes ago, anamika said:

Plus, Sophie Turner's poor acting and emoting also plays a role here - her blank face does not really tell us anything, leading fans to unfairly accuse Arya of being 'Psycho'.  Maisie Williams on the other hand is just so good that we can make out everything she is feeling with no dialogue.

I don't see that at all.  If the show isn't actually emphasizing those things, as you say, why would Sophie be acting that?  And facial expressions are where Sophie is the strongest, in my view; she became terrific at that during the early seasons when she hardly had any dialogue to work with.

I'm sure that on some level Sansa does want to run the North.  Arya's accusations are still ridiculously over-the-top.  I'm sure every VP in American history has imagined themselves behind the President's desk, since any sensible person knows that's something that could happen if the President dies; that's not the same as actively wishing for, let alone working toward, the President's death.

[Raachel2008]

10 hours ago, doram said:

I don't disagree that Jon is Dany's primary concern but it's not in keeping with Dany's character that she would know that Jorah or someone else she cared about was in danger, she could do something to help them, and she refuses for her own safety.

NO way she would do the same if it was only Jorah.

2 hours ago, SeanC said:

- They have Jaime say he was trying to kill Dany, rather than Drogon, which is a much better explanation.

How can anyone think Jaime was trying to kill Drogon? It was pretty clear that he wanted to kill Dany.

11 minutes ago, SeanC said:

I'm sure that on some level Sansa does want to run the North

Of course she does; she is a legitime Stark, in her eyes she saved the North in BoB, plus we've already seen that she thinks she knows better.

Also can we stop witth this whole "it is Dany or Jon and Dany/Jon fault the Wall goes down"? The WW would pass the Wall one way or another or there would be no plot.

[anamika]

19 minutes ago, SeanC said:

I don't see that at all.  If the show isn't actually emphasizing those things, as you say, why would Sophie be acting that?  And facial expressions are where Sophie is the strongest, in my view; she became terrific at that during the early seasons when she hardly had any dialogue to work with.

There were lines in the script where she thinks that she deserves the credit and should have been queen - these are things that Sansa should emote because it's internal. Arya recognizes Sansa's desire to rule the North and that's why she acts. If Sophie does not show that, then it makes Arya look unreasonable. As it stands, Sansa's blank face in the hall tells us nothing about how she feels about who should rule the North - does she want it , does she not? We can see Arya watching her closely, but Sansa is blankly looking at the Lords.

As for the show not emphasizing things, I am talking about all those scenes in the hall with Arya and Lyanna etc. They cut it down to solely Arya judging Sansa on her reaction to the Lords. If she does not react, then there is nothing there. Is the show trying to tell us that Sansa is entirely selfless in this whole thing and that Arya is just being paranoid?

19 minutes ago, SeanC said:

I'm sure that on some level Sansa does want to run the North. 

But that's the problem, we don't know if Sansa wants to rule the North over Jon. The show and Sophie's acting does not tell us this making Arya look unreasonable for even pointing it out.  Even last episode, we had like 10 different reactions assigned to her, because she can't act.

19 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Arya's accusations are still ridiculously over-the-top. 

As I said, par for the course for every character stuck with Sansa on the show. Just as ridiculous as Jon charging towards Ramsay and losing the battle so that Sansa can triumphantly smirk from a hilltop for saving his ass. We will get something similar when Sansa demonstrates that Arya is dumb and then Arya will praise Sansa as being the best, like Jon had to praise Sansa for winning the battle. Already the comments about Arya being slow minded as opposed to smart Sansa is making me go ugh! I am going to just skip the WF scenes as there is nothing there but annoying drama to prop up David and Dan's favorite. Either commit to fairly show both sides of the conflict or don't write this nonsense.

Edited August 14, 2017 by anamika

[SeanC]

2 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

How can anyone think Jaime was trying to kill Drogon? It was pretty clear that he wanted to kill Dany.

In the original outline for this episode, Jaime said he was going to kill Drogon, and there was an extended back-and-forth with Bronn about how stupid that was.

Just now, anamika said:

There were lines in the script where she thinks that she deserves the credit and should have been queen - these are things that Sansa should emote because it's internal.

In the outline.  We don't know what the finished script said.

Quote

Even last episode, we had like 10 different reactions assigned to her, because she can't act.

No, there were 10 different reactions because those were all plausible interpretations of the sequence.  Sequences that depend on dialogue will always be open to that; we were shown that Sansa was disturbed by what she was seeing.  Exactly what about it disturbed her is not something that can be conveyed solely by facial expressions; external context, shot emphasis, etc. are used to highlight that further.

[anamika]

9 minutes ago, SeanC said:

In the outline.  We don't know what the finished script said.

So what do you think the finished script said from that scene?

[SeanC]

Just now, anamika said:

So what do you think the finished script said from that scene?

I don't know.  But things change between outline and script, as we've seen in numerous instances, so I don't think you can judge acting choices based solely on what's in it.  The tenor of a lot of the Northern scenes are different from how the outline reads.  It's not like Sophie couldn't play her as more imperious and shifty-eyed if she wanted to; we've seen her do that in previous seasons during assorted Dark Sansa feints.

[anamika]

6 minutes ago, SeanC said:

I don't know.  But things change between outline and script, as we've seen in numerous instances, so I don't think you can judge acting choices based solely on what's in it.  The tenor of a lot of the Northern scenes are different from how the outline reads.  It's not like Sophie couldn't play her as more imperious and shifty-eyed if she wanted to; we've seen her do that in previous seasons during assorted Dark Sansa feints.

So if Sophie did not play her as imperious and shifty eyed, then it means that Sansa has no desire to rule the North and that Arya is entirely unreasonable and in the wrong here to have any doubts of her intentions? That the Arya who learned to read emotions with the FM was entirely wrong here? That's what you are saying the show is telling us?

[Raachel2008]

40 minutes ago, SeanC said:

In the original outline for this episode, Jaime said he was going to kill Drogon, and there was an extended back-and-forth with Bronn about how stupid that was.

But that was not on screen. On screen, Jamie saw that Dany had her back turned to him, grabbed that spear and tried to kill her.

[SeanC]

4 hours ago, Raachel2008 said:

But that was not on screen. On screen, Jamie saw that Dany had her back turned to him, grabbed that spear and tried to kill her.

I was describing changes from the outline to the show.

[SimoneS]

The changes from the outlines/scripts leaked to what is shown on the screen suggest to me that sometimes our discussion is off. However, in the case of the wight hunt, it was just as ridiculous on screen as in the leaks. I don't know what is worse, that they came up with that dumbass plan or they think that they can convince Cersei. Oh well, I suppose it brings the drama and will eliminate some extraneous characters. The bit of good news is that Edd is not involved. I read some speculation that he would go on the hunt and be killed. Hopefully, we will see him again before the season is over.