Babylon 5 - General Discussion

[Anduin]

37 minutes ago, Driad said:

 

 

JMS was a white man in his 40s when this happened.  He felt it would be good to have more diversity.

Yeah, I get it. But it still feels a bit weird. I'll cope. :)

[Hiyo]

I don't think he was way saying there shouldn't be any white men in their 40s...just that they all shouldn't be.

Edited August 16, 2021 by Hiyo

[The Crazed Spruce]

11 hours ago, Driad said:

I watched B5 when it first aired, except season 5, which was on cable (I have never had cable).  One aspect I enjoyed was that JMS sometimes posted behind-the-scenes descriptions online.  Once he said that for an early episode, he had asked casting for a dozen people to play ship captains.  They sent him a dozen white men in their 40s.  He complained, and casting told him that was the default, so if he wanted diversity he had to be specific.  After that, he did.

I'm a white guy in his 40's, and I'm all for it. And the fact that JMS had to specifically request diversity casting tells you everything you need to know about Hollywood in the 90's. (Hell, Hollywood today for a large part.)

JMS was a pioneer when it came to communication with his show's fans. Hell, he had a production blog before the word "blog" even existed.

[ProfCrash]

1 hour ago, The Crazed Spruce said:

I'm a white guy in his 40's, and I'm all for it. And the fact that JMS had to specifically request diversity casting tells you everything you need to know about Hollywood in the 90's. (Hell, Hollywood today for a large part.)

JMS was a pioneer when it came to communication with his show's fans. Hell, he had a production blog before the word "blog" even existed.

JMS regularly answered questions after each episode. The Lurkers Guide to Babylon 5 was amazing and included lots of JMS quotes and answers to questions about specific episodes. Such an amazing site.

[call me ishmael]

7 hours ago, ProfCrash said:

JMS regularly answered questions after each episode. The Lurkers Guide to Babylon 5 was amazing and included lots of JMS quotes and answers to questions about specific episodes. Such an amazing site.

The Lurkers Guide was fabulous.  It was one of the only sites that actually made the show better because it was there.

[starri]

The one thing that bugs me a bit about his interactions—which I did and do think were cool—is that later on in the show’s run, he gets awfully defensive. I mean, I get being proud of what you accomplished(which he should be), but some of the responses get a bit…snippy. 

[ProfCrash]

12 hours ago, starri said:

The one thing that bugs me a bit about his interactions—which I did and do think were cool—is that later on in the show’s run, he gets awfully defensive. I mean, I get being proud of what you accomplished(which he should be), but some of the responses get a bit…snippy. 

Agreed. He is a bit prickly.

[merylinkid]

13 hours ago, starri said:

The one thing that bugs me a bit about his interactions—which I did and do think were cool—is that later on in the show’s run, he gets awfully defensive. I mean, I get being proud of what you accomplished(which he should be), but some of the responses get a bit…snippy. 

Ehh, I would get snippy too if I had actually laid out a 5 year plan for a show, instead of the usualy, hey here's a GREAT FIRST SEASON we will wing it the rest of the way if we get picked up, then got told, yeah you have to tell it in 4.     Like "I set stuff up back in ONE, that can only be paid off in 5 without leaving GAPING HOLES."

[Morrigan2575]

Just got through Believers and, I can honestly say my opinion of S1 has changed. I used to find if very weak and never rewatched but, I'm off a different opinion now. There was some really enjoyable stuff and some deep storylines. 

Any chance S5 doesn't suck as much as I remember too? 😂

[ProfCrash]

5 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Just got through Believers and, I can honestly say my opinion of S1 has changed. I used to find if very weak and never rewatched but, I'm off a different opinion now. There was some really enjoyable stuff and some deep storylines. 

Any chance S5 doesn't suck as much as I remember too? 😂

No, Season 5 still sucks. I mean, you have Byron and singing Telepaths. 

Season 1 has been massively underrated for a long time. It had some amazingly good episodes and a few impressive clunkers. But there were still some important lines and foreshadowing in the clunkers. 

[Morrigan2575]

10 minutes ago, ProfCrash said:

No, Season 5 still sucks. I mean, you have Byron and singing Telepaths. 

Season 1 has been massively underrated for a long time. It had some amazingly good episodes and a few impressive clunkers. But there were still some important lines and foreshadowing in the clunkers. 

I think the there were 2-3 episodes of S5 i liked, the one with the storyline from the maintenance workers POV, the Brakiri Day of the Dead episode and, the one with Penny and Teller which actually might be the same as the Day of the Day episode (why I said 2-3). Byron sucked and, I was biased against Not!Ivanova 😂

For S1, I remember not liking Sinclair and thinking his acting was OOT. Now, there were times that he was a little OTT (so far) but, I'm noticing a lot of well acted scenes, The Believers is a great episode.

I think I spent a lot of time comparing Sinclair to Sheridan and, that was unfair to Sinclair. 

[John Potts]

I kinda liked Garibaldi falling off the wagon and resulting in the fall of Centauri Prime, but yeah, there's not a lot of good episodes in S5.

[ProfCrash]

2 hours ago, John Potts said:

I kinda liked Garibaldi falling off the wagon and resulting in the fall of Centauri Prime, but yeah, there's not a lot of good episodes in S5.

Yeah, that plot line worked because it was directly tied into the characters past history. It made sense.

[DoctorAtomic]

Really, you take out most of Byron; on paper, telepaths being created by Vorlon for a war that's past and asking for essentially reparations isn't a bad plot, and S5 is good as far as I'm concerned. 

One of the key parts of the series is that there's significant show and drama *after* the Big War ends. Now what? And really, we're seeing it still today irl. 

Now, of course, I'm in complete agreement with 'shut up, Byron,' but I can't trash the season as a whole. 

[ProfCrash]

Conceptually, the Telepath story made total sense. The execution of the story line was poor. I suspect that it initially was meant to be an Ivanova plot line, to tie into her revelation that she was a low level telepath and in hiding.  It would have been interesting to see how different they story would have been with Ivanova then with Lyta. 

Byron was just not well written or executed. 

I think it falls into much of the Lochely stuff, they were new characters that were introduced late in the game who just didn’t tie in well with the cast that we had developed connections to. They felt like minor characters who were introduced too late and thrust into the spotlight.

If Ivanova had been there, the Telepath storyline takes on a different feel because we have her back story and her past interactions with Bester. 

I have not read if Talia was meant to return for the Telepath plot or if she was a back up when Ivanova left and so the story was massively altered. But Sheridan’s interactions with Ivanova and the Telepaths likely would have been massivly different then Lochely’s interactions with Talia. 

[DoctorAtomic]

Not great casting for Byron either. 

Even with Ivanova, you still need for them to find out they were made by the Vorlon. I mean, Ivanova knows, but it's more visceral with Lyta. 

 

[call me ishmael]

14 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

Not great casting for Byron either. 

Even with Ivanova, you still need for them to find out they were made by the Vorlon. I mean, Ivanova knows, but it's more visceral with Lyta. 

 

Byron certainly killed that plot line.

But your point about Lyta is a good one.  Not only was she REALLY Team Vorlon but she ended up being abused by notKosh.  Her getting all caught up with Byron makes a ton of sense.

[Maverick]

 Lochley had the same problem as Ezri on DS9.  You can't introduce a new main character to replace an original character in a long running serialized show and expect anyone to care about them.   You spend valuable time trying to establish this character when it should be spent on wrapping up years of storylines.  

[merylinkid]

9 hours ago, Maverick said:

 Lochley had the same problem as Ezri on DS9.  You can't introduce a new main character to replace an original character in a long running serialized show and expect anyone to care about them.   You spend valuable time trying to establish this character when it should be spent on wrapping up years of storylines.  

And having her be Sheridan's ex as a quick way to shoe horn her into the "family" of the station was just horrible storytelling.   If you must have a new character introduced in Season 5, then have a NEW character.   

Although finding out her access code in Day of the Dead was a pretty powerful moment.  because of the buildup.   But Day of the Dead was an excellent episode.

[ProfCrash]

Day of the Dead was amazing. Yeah, Lochley was just a mess. it just didn't work. Still annoyed that Claudia did not return. I mean, I understand what she was trying to do but everyone else resigned and she didn't. Screwed things up worse than they needed to be.

[DoctorAtomic]

I didn't really mind the change as much as I did love Ivanova. They just ended a big war. She'd been on B5 for years, and the station was transitioning to something else. She was instrumental in both the current and the 1000 year old shadow war. 

She had a chance for a promotion and captaining a ship with brand new technology. I can get she wanted a new challenge and a change. 

To be fair, it was asinine to have Lochley be Sheridan's ex. Scoggins is a good enough actor that she can do something with the character without saddling her with that. 

The situation with a new B5 captain and former captain Sheridan being there is interesting enough. I think they dropped the ball there on thinking about what B5 is now in the post Shadow-Vorlon galaxy.

Really though, the season is worth it in terms of setting up Londo for the books. 

[starri]

Reboot? And it's not April Fool's Day.

The old cast is involved somehow, at least according to Claudia Christian's Twitter.

[Lokiberry]

45 minutes ago, starri said:

Reboot? And it's not April Fool's Day.

The old cast is involved somehow, at least according to Claudia Christian's Twitter.

I wish this was going to be on something besides the CW. I fear the characters will all be in their 20s obsessed with their hormones. Sheridan and Delenn will almost certainly be. If only Amazon Prime could have gotten hold of it; as they've proven with The Expanse, they know how to make intelligent science fiction. 

[merylinkid]

10 minutes ago, Lokiberry said:

I wish this was going to be on something besides the CW. I fear the characters will all be in their 20s obsessed with their hormones. Sheridan and Delenn will almost certainly be. If only Amazon Prime could have gotten hold of it; as they've proven with The Expanse, they know how to make intelligent science fiction. 

I'm less concerned because JMS is involved as the creator too.   Since he did okay the first time, I am willing to give it a chance.   There were sex jokes sure -- like OMG the Centauri genitals  OMG -- and who can forget "old way, new way" Ivanova --- but it was just more in the lines of "exploring different species" so to speak.   Not the focus.   

[DoctorAtomic]

I was hoping it would be the original treatment, but this doesn't sound like it. 

[Anduin]

It's actually officially happening! From his twitter:

Quote

To answer all the questions, yes, it’s true, Babylon 5 is in active development as a series for the CW. We have some serious fans over at the network, and they’re eager to see this show happen. I’m hip deep into writing the pilot now, and will be running the series upon pickup.

He goes into some thoughts about why it's a reboot and not a continuation. He's learned more over the years, half the cast have passed away, and other such things.

Hey, thread reader app has the whole deal!

[ProfCrash]

Sooo excited! So very excited

[paulvdb]

I have started a topic in the Pilots and Development forum for further discussion about the reboot.

[Morrigan2575]

21 hours ago, starri said:

Reboot? And it's not April Fool's Day.

The old cast is involved somehow, at least according to Claudia Christian's Twitter.

Was just coming hear to ask if this was an April Fools Joke...I love B5 it is a work of art but, the CW?! 😔

Yes, a part of me would love to see the original plan. With Sinclair AND Sheridan and, hell and actual ending to erase that crappy S5 but...I just don't know if it's worth it. I can just watch the show again.

The biggest problem I see is the acting, especially for G'Kar and Lando

Edited September 28, 2021 by Morrigan2575

[starri]

I'm willing to keep an open mind about the thing.  But if the entire thing is about starting from scratch on the original story....I mean, they told that one.  And very well, if not perfectly.

After two other attempts to launch a series in the same universe about a scrappy crew attempting to uncover eldritch horrors, part of me wants something new.

[Morrigan2575]

35 minutes ago, starri said:

I'm willing to keep an open mind about the thing.  But if the entire thing is about starting from scratch on the original story....I mean, they told that one.  And very well, if not perfectly.

I mean we could get the story of B5 post Shadow War, it was around for 15-20 years, right? Plus there was that whole Centauri thing and David. That could be interesting but, calling it a reboot means to me, we get original story with a twist...like Battlestar Galactica.

 

[ProfCrash]

45 minutes ago, starri said:

I'm willing to keep an open mind about the thing.  But if the entire thing is about starting from scratch on the original story....I mean, they told that one.  And very well, if not perfectly.

After two other attempts to launch a series in the same universe about a scrappy crew attempting to uncover eldritch horrors, part of me wants something new.

I don't thnk he told the full story the way he wanted to. There were three characters from the Pilot that were removed from Season 1 because of contract issues, Laurel takashim, Doctor Ben, and Talia. They took too long with deciding to gree light the series to get those three actors. So plot lines were adjusted and shifted around. We know that the Sinclair story wasn't told the way that JMS wanted to. The Shadow War and earth Civil War timeline was adjusted to deal with the cancellation. Ivanova's story was shifted around. 

Honestly, I would love to see the story the way JMS really wanted it told without some of the changes he was forced to make because on contract issues and the cancellation.

And, I think I would love to see the original story with much better effects and better actors. Some of the actors were brialliant, mainly the Alien leads, but the human characters were kind of lack luster. 

I think that the original story told the way JMS wanted to tell it would be pretty different then the original and would be pretty amazing. 

[Anduin]

5 hours ago, starri said:

After two other attempts to launch a series in the same universe about a scrappy crew attempting to uncover eldritch horrors, part of me wants something new.

I never considered this before, but could that have been an influence on the Expanse?

[ProfCrash]

3 hours ago, Anduin said:

I never considered this before, but could that have been an influence on the Expanse?

I suspect he is referencing Crusade and the ridiculous box the Captain had that was suppose to be full of bad juju. The other was the one about the Rangers which who knows were they were going with. 

[Anduin]

51 minutes ago, ProfCrash said:

I suspect he is referencing Crusade and the ridiculous box the Captain had that was suppose to be full of bad juju. The other was the one about the Rangers which who knows were they were going with. 

Yes, I know. But I'm wondering if the Expanse authors watched them too.

[DoctorAtomic]

The apocalypse box. 

[Morrigan2575]

 

 

[DoctorAtomic]

Fair. 

[Affogato]

On 9/28/2021 at 11:50 AM, ProfCrash said:

I don't thnk he told the full story the way he wanted to. There were three characters from the Pilot that were removed from Season 1 because of contract issues, Laurel takashim, Doctor Ben, and Talia. They took too long with deciding to gree light the series to get those three actors. So plot lines were adjusted and shifted around. We know that the Sinclair story wasn't told the way that JMS wanted to. The Shadow War and earth Civil War timeline was adjusted to deal with the cancellation. Ivanova's story was shifted around. 

Honestly, I would love to see the story the way JMS really wanted it told without some of the changes he was forced to make because on contract issues and the cancellation.

And, I think I would love to see the original story with much better effects and better actors. Some of the actors were brialliant, mainly the Alien leads, but the human characters were kind of lack luster. 

I think that the original story told the way JMS wanted to tell it would be pretty different then the original and would be pretty amazing. 

I think the changes you are talking about are fairly unavoidable in television. Not being able to get actors, having people get sick or get better offers, JMS kept a lot of control of Babylon 5, relative to the team efforts of other shows, but he couldn't do anything. I imagine that it would be the same with a new version of the show.

[Affogato]

On 9/27/2021 at 2:37 PM, Lokiberry said:

I wish this was going to be on something besides the CW. I fear the characters will all be in their 20s obsessed with their hormones. Sheridan and Delenn will almost certainly be. If only Amazon Prime could have gotten hold of it; as they've proven with The Expanse, they know how to make intelligent science fiction. 

I'm also concerned that if the story gets interesting the CW viewers won't be interested (and hence it will be soon cancelled).

Yes, the CW does have a template, and that template is to revisit our last big shared experience, high school.  It is hard to find the high school in Babylon 5.

[Morrigan2575]

3 hours ago, Affogato said:

I'm also concerned that if the story gets interesting the CW viewers won't be interested (and hence it will be soon cancelled).

Yes, the CW does have a template, and that template is to revisit our last big shared experience, high school.  It is hard to find the high school in Babylon 5.

I don't think CW knows how to cancel shows. There are plenty of shows that get like 0.01 and get renewed for years. CW makes its money on international sales

[diebartdie]

4 hours ago, Affogato said:

I'm also concerned that if the story gets interesting the CW viewers won't be interested (and hence it will be soon cancelled).

Yes, the CW does have a template, and that template is to revisit our last big shared experience, high school.  It is hard to find the high school in Babylon 5.

While this statement is mainly true, The CW has 1 show at least that is really at the level of quality we should all hope for with the new Bab5 and that show is Superman & Lois. While supposedly set in the same universe as Beebo, The Flash & Batwoman, Superman & Lois LOOKS like it's made for a different service all together, it LOOKS like it's for HBO or Netflix. I'm hoping the new Babylon5 LOOKS that good & we get enough good actors to make it all worthwhile. It's exciting to consider, isn't it?

[ProfCrash]

5 hours ago, Affogato said:

I think the changes you are talking about are fairly unavoidable in television. Not being able to get actors, having people get sick or get better offers, JMS kept a lot of control of Babylon 5, relative to the team efforts of other shows, but he couldn't do anything. I imagine that it would be the same with a new version of the show.

Agreed that you can lose actors and the like. My only point was that JMS could actually develop the show with the original characters, three of whom he had to write out after the pilot, and end up with a different show then its first iteration, which would be interesting.

[starri]

On 12/12/2021 at 1:39 PM, Morrigan2575 said:

I don't think CW knows how to cancel shows. There are plenty of shows that get like 0.01 and get renewed for years. CW makes its money on international sales

B5's money was ALWAYS made overseas.  So it's actually in good keeping.

I'm also not going to be shocked if the show shifts primarily to HBOMax.

[Morrigan2575]

 

 

[starri]

I can't find a link, but it seems like the reboot won't be moving forward, at least partially as a victim of the CW being up for sale.

I actually think it would be better on HBOMax, but for good or ill, they may not want to invest the level of money in it that the CW would, and might not quite fit their brand.  But the script is apparently on the shelf.

[Anduin]

5 minutes ago, starri said:

I can't find a link, but it seems like the reboot won't be moving forward, at least partially as a victim of the CW being up for sale.

I actually think it would be better on HBOMax, but for good or ill, they may not want to invest the level of money in it that the CW would, and might not quite fit their brand.  But the script is apparently on the shelf.

Not this year, but there's hope for next year.

[starri]

I have a hard time believing that if they have new owners by that point that the management of the network would be the same.

Of course, I will try to be optimistic, but who knows.

[ProfCrash]

JMS had posted on Patreon and FB that it was being pushed back a year. I do wish that this would be picked up by Amazon or HBO or Netflix or anyone but CW.

[Morrigan2575]

1 hour ago, ProfCrash said:

JMS had posted on Patreon and FB that it was being pushed back a year. I do wish that this would be picked up by Amazon or HBO or Netflix or anyone but CW.

Seriously. HBO Max or Amazon would be awesome. 

Edited February 11, 2022 by Morrigan2575