S02.E07: Faith

[toolazy]

Those potions came from Raymond's shop - there were two tables in there, one with evidence from Raymond's shop and the other with evidence from the Comte's home.  But yeah, that snake is kind of a weird pet to have.

[ganesh]

It's not that weird a pet if you're the cooky king and want to use it to frighten people into telling you the truth. 

[riverheightsnancy]

On 5/23/2016 at 1:26 PM, toolazy said:

I'm interested what you non-book readers thought about the Star Chamber scene.  In Tom & Lorenzo's review, they are mostly WTF? What did you guys think?

I thought the room was really beautiful, but I also thought that it was giving a nod to the idea that the king also "dabbled" in the arts too. As we remember with Claire in Scotland, it takes very little to be accused of being a witch, so just using "herbs" to heal people could be construed as being a "witch" if someone doesn't like you. I am a little bit of interest in castles and the like, and many of them had secret rooms and passageways, so that is not surprising at all. What is done in there, is more interesting (to me). 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

2 hours ago, toolazy said:

Those potions came from Raymond's shop - there were two tables in there, one with evidence from Raymond's shop and the other with evidence from the Comte's home.  But yeah, that snake is kind of a weird pet to have.

Ack!  You're right.  Forgot that it was 'evidence'!

[taanja]

Late to the game

I must have a heart of stone because even though I liked this episode---my god the costumes alone were glorious!---I was NOT as devastated as everyone else it seems at the death of the baby. Until the show disproves me otherwise I am still holding onto the theory that when Claire goes back to her own time she also goes back physically in time to the point where she is just pregnant. In the 1740 reality she has the baby and it dies. In the 1940 reality she starts over again and this time the baby is born alive. A girl with red hair. (<<Oh soulless one) ** disclaimer--I can say that. I come from a family of red-heads ;-)

Jamie's beard was fugly. and fake fake fake. Very distracting.

I found The French court and especially King Louis XV to be very fascinating! So much so that I did a little research on the man and the time. If this had taken place one year later we would have Madame de Pompadour as the king's mistress. Ah. Such a missed opportunity. Anyway that whole star room scene was tense and well done show!  And the portrayal of King Louis XV also well done. He became king at the age of 5 and literally grew up in court so that earlier scene of him taking a crap with witnesses was spot on. Oh and he was a known womanizer so I found that quick fuck as payment with Claire to be funny.

So? back to Scotland? So France was just a waste of time?

[ganesh]

That's seems overly complicated. The more straightforward answer is she just gets pregnant a second time. 

[taanja]

4 hours ago, ganesh said:

That's seems overly complicated. The more straightforward answer is she just gets pregnant a second time. 

With another red-haired girl child?

I like my theory better! ;-)

[ganesh]

The probability of a second child with the same characteristics isn't conditional. They're independent events. 

[nara]

3 hours ago, taanja said:

With another red-haired girl child?

I like my theory better! ;-)

As they would say in Game of Thrones, Jamie's seed is strong...

[paramitch]

I thought that overall this was a pretty stunning episode, with the sole exception of the fact that they chose to actually show Fergus's rape on-camera. I thought it was egregious, used for shock value, and in extremely poor taste, especially for this show, which has regularly been accused of using rape too often as a plot device.

Before now, I've been a defender of "Outlander" and its constant use of rape as a plot device, to a degree, because I've felt like Moore and company are genuinely trying to use the story to say something about the use of rape as a tool of fear and conquest by men throughout history. I also really liked (from a plot standpoint) the way season one ended with the unexpected and brutal assault of Jamie and not Claire, and thought it brought a lot to the setup for season 2.

But the revelation that Black Jack will rape anyone, anytime, regardless of age, to me just turns his complex villain into a caricature. He's already an utterly repugnant man, but the way he's been painted up until this episode made him interesting to me, because I felt like his reasons for wanting to rape both Claire and Jamie were actually believable to his twisted and depraved character -- his efforts to assault Claire seemed like the traditional male use of sexual violence in order to subdue a woman who threatened him, while also exemplifying the worst aspects of sexual violence as a tool used by soldiers against the women of their enemies going back millennia. Meanwhile, his efforts with Jamie seemed to me to be as much about his twisted love and desire for Jamie as they did about his desire for dominance, with the violence there (as with Claire) another component of his constant need to show mastery and power.

But the fact that he walked in and casually raped a little boy has just totally ruined the character as a great (if horrific) villain for me, because now there is nothing too horrible for him to do, and I just didn't buy that this is something the guy would have actually done. I think it's bad writing, and was simply a plot device --  to get Jamie to disregard his promise to Claire so that (1) Randall is wounded and temporarily removed from play, (2) Claire loses the baby, and (3) Jamie is imprisoned, forcing Claire to sacrifice her body to the King for his return, even as Jamie once did for her with Randall. It just felt like plotting. Not like believable character actions to me.

However, with that said, I did think that the rest of the episode was pretty amazing and beautifully acted, most especially by Catriona in the scenes at the Hospital upon her loss of Faith. I also thought the scenes with the King were genuinely suspenseful and fascinating, and oddly horrible -- the guy has absolute power so I felt genuine fear for everyone's safety in that scene. The Comte was really well-acted and I actually felt for him when he realized he was going to die.

I disliked Claire having to have sex with the King in order to get Jamie's release, but I felt like Claire was, because she was expecting it, able to view it as a distasteful and momentary situation in which she still had power to a degree -- she had made the decision to agree to it, so I think it was not something she viewed as necessarily traumatic so much as distasteful and worthy of contempt. And it was a fascinating reflection of Jamie's selfless sacrifice of his own body for Claire back in S1.

Meanwhile, the final scene of Claire not wanting to relinquish her baby's body was so real and visceral to me that it made me cry. I loved that her friend showed up to help her, and showed such gentleness toward Claire there.

And the set design and costumes on this show are simply absolutely breathtaking. This show is one of my favorites simply for the visceral way the surroundings and costumes take the viewer away from the modern world, and convincingly transport us to the past. I thought this was one of the most beautifully filmed and produced episodes to date.

[foxfreakinmulder]

On ‎5‎/‎22‎/‎2016 at 3:32 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Seeing how upset Claire was when she woke up and realized that she was no longer pregnant was painful enough but the flashback at the end when we saw her holding the baby until Louise took her away was just heartbreaking.

If they are really going back to Scotland right away, I will miss the beautiful French locations, the ridiculously fancy scenes at Versailles, the gorgeous costumes, Mother Hildegard and Bouton, Master Raymond (although since he's been exiled from France, maybe he can show up in Scotland), and Louise's friendship with Claire. I hope they take Fergus with them. I was really glad that Claire had no resentment or blame at all about Fergus's inadvertent role in Jamie being in the Bastille.

This episode was so sad! Caitriona hit it out of the park, I felt her sadness and grief. And poor Furgus, I wanted to give him a hug. It was so sweet of him to take flowers to Claire and ask her to come home then brush her hair. I hope they don't leave him there.

I will miss the vivid colors of France and the characters we got to know especially Mother Hildegard.

I can't even go there with Black Jack or I'll puke. Please, someone kill him!

The trail was tense and the death scene with St. Germain when he saw Claire's neckless change colors and knew he was going to die was done really well, he actually made me feel sorry for him. Then I remembered he admitted to poisoning Claire when she was pregnant and thought, pay backs are a bitch! But the actor was excellent in that scene.

Please take Furgus with you to Scotland.

[chaifan]

I had to look up the young actor who plays Fergus.  He is older than he appears, at least to me.  I was thinking he was 10-12, but he was born in 2001, which would have put him around 14 when Season 2 was filmed.  My concern was, how do you explain to a young actor in that type of scene what is happening to the character?  I couldn't even begin to think how you'd do that with a 10 year old. 

That whole scene in the King's hidden little occult room was very interesting.  I am assuming Raymond has a poison ring, always with a little something something at the ready, just in case of situations like this.  What would have happened, though, if he didn't, and both he and St. Germain lived?  How would the King have known what Claire gave them was poison or not? 

[Camera One]

I groaned when I saw the rape warning at the beginning.  Here we go again.  

What happened to Fergus and later what the King made Claire do as "payment" were depraved.  

I wonder if we will find out if St. Germaine really was behind the attack on Claire and Mary.  The scene of the "trial" was very suspenseful and I liked Claire thinking on her feet.  It makes no sense that Louis would be fine with Claire being a "witch" while he was hunting down all these black magic practitioners.  

This episode was very well acted.  It was nice to see all the new friends Claire has made in Paris helping her and consoling her.  The only one we didn't get to see was Mary.  

They definitely did go through a lot, but suddenly, their mission is over because, convenience and we're bored of Paris now?  

Despite the beautiful cinematography and the historical setting (I really like historical fiction), this episode brought back the feeling I had after watching Season 1... I don't find all this suffering and violence all that enjoyable to watch.  I will at least finish the season though.  

Edited March 6, 2021 by Camera One

[Ziggy]

12 hours ago, Camera One said:

They definitely did go through a lot, but suddenly, their mission is over because, convenience and we're bored of Paris now? 

I think that, while Jamie is amazing and able to hold he own in just about any setting, Paris is just not where he's meant to be and not where he's happy.  Story-wise, I think he and Claire hit their breaking point and are just done with trying to "change history."  They are hoping for the best and just done and ready to move forward.  The circumstances kind of dictated it (since Jamie is forced to leave France), but they are both ready to go.

[Anothermi]

Finally. An episode I am content with. 

Jamie enters the Bastille due to the dictates of his honour...and Tyrion Lannister returns to claim Claire (especially due to the camera angle over the staircase). Surprising turn of events! (I kid you but I did think Jamie looked like Tyrion in that scene!)

Claire stops being a caricature of a strong woman and becomes real  one. 

Only Comte St Germain is killed and it wasn't even Claire who did it! She got to experience human conscience and Monsieur Raymond shouldered the guilt.  I'd imagined that the Comte might end up an ally of our two protagonists and— oddly— his death made him exactly that. It saved them. Raymond knew that the King would not be pleased without at least one death.

I'm glad that the mystery of how Claire could be so visibly pregnant at this point and so non-visibly pregnant when she returned to her present was solved. We can look forward to another bunch of sex  scenes perhaps?

And continuing on the theme of segues from this show to a completely different show? There was one scene where a carriage enters a cobbled plaza(?) to the string music reminiscent of the 20th century Sherlock series (Jeremy Brett. My favourite Sherlock). I always liked that music so it was a good time-shift. 

I really do appreciate that this show gives us the "hidden" reality of women in history. The birth scene, the fact that women were as impacted by a rape, or the loss of a child as in present times. It's not glossed over and hand waved away. Plus? I could once again relate to Claire! (exhale) Finally.

This one is my favourite episode so far. 

This was a closure episode—and from what I've seen so far— we need one every 3 episodes! Buh Bye France!

 

Edited April 12, 2021 by Anothermi
clarification

[Pallas]

Beautiful and moving. Masterly, in how the story of Faith was woven throughout the episode, building to a truly poignant finish. Both parents, a stone, two names, one year. 

What struck me was the fluid way that even the twists were presented. There's been a lot of, "This sort-of-suspenseful thing is happening and then oh-no-now-look," but with the stakes-raiser turning out to be just another of the same ol' perils. Not this time. King Louis leads Claire away from the boudoir (uh-oh) to a (now what)...Star Chamber? With who -- le Comte and M. Raymond, both on trial, for Claire to judge? And a snake to break the tie?  

I'm not sure how Louis plans to swing a pardon from the British crown for a convicted traitor and known Jacobite, in order for him to return. I'm not sure what's in it for Britain. But I do know what's in it for us. And,

On 4/10/2021 at 1:58 AM, Anothermi said:

Claire stops being a caricature of a strong woman and becomes a real one. 

C'est parfait. 

[gingerella]

So much to say, and yet where to begin? This was, overall, a beautiful episode, yet I find myself still taking the show runners to task over showing child rape, which was really unnecessary. There are so many ways we could have gotten the point without as much detail. It really feels like the Viewer was violated as well. I know that some might say that is the point, but I don't think it's needed. I also wonder if the show runners have psychologists on set for these more graphic rape scenes, and for the Jamie rape/torture scene. I would hope so, I mean it's not like another day at the office when you're asked to act out this type of thing.

So the opening scenes really jarred this Viewer! I'm not sure why we needed to see 1950's Claire and her and Jamie's daughter at the top of this episode. I think we get it, there was another pregnancy before Claire was sent back through the Stones at the top of this season, no need to hit us over the head with it. And furthermore, what was/is the significance of the heron? And for Claire to say she's seen herons on Scotland? I mean they live in bloody Boston, and the state of Mass. has a shit ton of water fowl and has plenty of heron, so it seemed like an odd choice. That said, I believe it connects to what Claire saw when Master Raymond visits her in the hospital and asks her to close her eyes and tell him what she sees - she says blue skies but doesn't mention herons IIRC - so I guess that is the connection? I suppose I get it, but I still didn't need that scene at the beginning. I can already tell I'm not going to enjoy the Boston scenes...not nearly as much as the Scotland scenes.

The whole 'where's my baby, I want my baby' scenes were so well done and you could feel Claire's grief in such a visceral way. I got teary just watching that part of this episode. Mother Hildegarde was so emotional and well done as well, you could feel the bond that she has developed for Claire and you felt her grief as well, same with Louise, who you could tell was hesitant to approach Claire because she herself was still pregnant and she didn't want to upset Claire further. That entire sequence was heart breaking. Also, I cannot help but think that the bitter cascara that the Comte tried to poison Claire with was at fault for killing her baby. I know Jamie feels the baby move last episode, but they never mention this and it makes me wonder if something is coming about this, or if they are just dropping the connection. Being 'almost poisoned' when you're already showing, that cannot be good for the baby regardless of what tea you drink to neutralize the cascara.

But the scene I loved the most was when suddenly Master Raymond appears - at first I thought it was Jamie, escaped from prison yet again - and so I was surprised that it was Raymond, and the way he healed her was just masterful. I was never sure about him but always leaned towards he's Claire's friend, not foe, and this is when he shows his loyalty to her, coming back under cover of darkness and knowing he is a wanted man, to save her life. I lerve him, and I hope he doesn't disappear from the Show permanently. Since he tells Claire again that they will meet again, I am hopeful...

The entire Claire Goes to the King to Ask a Big Favor was...interesting and weird. I thought that it was strange that the King has what seems to be a room that is decorated as if it is an homage to The Occult, and he is trying practitioners there at the same time. Perhaps he is interested in white magic too, but will not tolerate the dark arts version? In any case, I wasn't sure what would happen and who would remain standing. It was interesting that the 'evidence' from both men's places was no more sinister seeming than the very room they were in at the King's palace. WTF?!? Also, it was so telling when the Comte admitted to trying to poison Claire and accusing her of being a witch because she did not die. I mean DUDE, WTF, you are admitting you tried to murder the woman who appears to hold you life currently in her hands. What the ever-loving fuck was he thinking?!? Also, I was a bit confounded and confused when Raymond was seemingly sick immediately from the potion, but seemed to immediately recover. Wasn't Claire feeling ill for much longer a time after drinking the bitter cascara, so how does Raymond stand up and act like it aint no big deal after only a few moments of seeming pain? Also, I'm assuming that he was either wearing a poison ring - not uncommon in those days, and I need to re watch to see if he has a signet style ring on because that's what they usually look like - but I had no idea why the necklace was turning black until they panned back to Raymond and we heart Claire's voice over. And good for the Comte to feel panic seeing that he is about to be poisoned to death. I have zero sympathy for him, particularly after he so brazenly admits to poisoning Claire. Good riddance to bad trash, I say! I know Claire is grappling with her morals at that point, but I also find it odd that she isn't more "okay, this fucker just admitted he tried to poison me and thus my unborn baby, and this could have caused the baby's death so buh-bye Comte!" and instead seems fine in wanting to save his sorry ass. That didn't ring true to me. Also and not for nothing, St. Germaine is a count, how can the king just kill a count like it's no big deal? Again, makes no sense, surely someone would protest?

The whole situation where King Louis expects Claire to service him afterwards as payment for releasing Jamie, it was so perfunctory, like he had to do it because that's what a King does in such situations, but it didn't even feel like rape to me, it felt like a really sad exchange, and he didn't even seem to enjoy it. So it was weird. I also was having a difficult time during the entire time Claire was at the King's palace because she's just lost her baby and yet it seems like she's fine, so fine in fact that she can allow the King to use her for sex. I wish we'd seen some of her grappling with the loss of Faith, instead of just seeing her come home and be upset in one scene.

Which leads me to the scene with Fergus having a nightmare dream. That was such a good scene and I was relieved when it happened because I knew that then Claire would be able to understand why Jamie broke his promise to her. Nothing else would have made sense to her, but the notion that he had to get revenge on BJR after he violated little Fergus, that is something Claire can understand. I am convinced they will take Fergus back to Scotland with them, they sort of owe it to him to not abandon him at this point, and he's becoming like a son to them as well.

As for Jamie, I sort of felt like @Anothermi...

On 4/9/2021 at 10:58 PM, Anothermi said:

Jamie enters the Bastille due to the dictates of his honour...and Tyrion Lannister returns to claim Claire

Seriously, with all the amazing costuming they do on this show, that was the best beard they could come up with? And his hair needed to be longer overall as well. That beard just took me right out of the moment because it was so awful looking and he looked like he'd wandering in off the set of The Hobbit or LOTRs! Which also begs the question how Jamie was so well shaven during The Rent...but I digress. What I liked about this scene was the flashbacks to Claire holding Faith (this show uses the flashback to masterful effect IMO, similar to The Wedding), and what that did to her, that ripped her guts out, and yet she finally admits that something tragic and awful was her fault and her fault alone. I can't disagree, other than the death being a result of eventual poisoning from the Comte, she should not have continued working at the hospital and she did over do it physically, and to see her finally take responsibility, fully and completely was very cathartic for this Viewer, and I hoped it would assuage my friend @Anothermi into liking Claire a wee bit more or giving her another chance! When she tells Jamie she wants him to take her 'home to Scotland', I think when she says that, like when she says 'Take me home, to Lallybroch', it makes him feel like she really does love him and she has released any notions of going back to her own time. That guts me watching that. But the thing I loved the absolute most about this episode, is when he tells Claire that he has already forgiven her, and he tells her what he told us after he rescued her from BJRs clutches. As he started talking, I was yelling inside my own head, "Jamie, TELL HER WHAT YOU TOLD US...TELL HER NOW!!!" And he did, and I love his character all the more for that. It was the most humane and loving thing he could have done in that moment. The last scene of them at Faith's grave, grieving together, was to me another nail in their 'togetherness'. I am certain now, that the remaining/upcoming 3.5 seasons that are already done, they will be about this couple. Yes I'm sure we shall see Frank again, but THIS is THE couple, there is no doubt about that now. They are bound together so deeply now, that they can never truly be apart from one another. I'm still trying to come up with ways that Jamie shows up in S01E01 as the mysterious Highlander in the dark street, but these two, this is forever, whatever 'forever' means in a time traveling tale...*sigh*

32 minutes ago, Pallas said:

 

On 4/9/2021 at 10:58 PM, Anothermi said:

Claire stops being a caricature of a strong woman and becomes a real one. 

C'est parfait. 

^THIS^ yes! It's as if Claire finally gives up fighting against things, and gives in to the fact that she is here, in this time, and she has to accept certain things in order to be with this man of her. She becomes a strong woman, but I see her as a strong woman in that time. I'm not sure yet if she returns through the Stones with the same strength, that is yet to be seen...

Edited April 11, 2021 by gingerella

[Anothermi]

 

12 minutes ago, gingerella said:

That said, I believe it connects to what Claire saw when Master Raymond visits her in the hospital and asks her to close her eyes and tell him what she sees - she says blue skies but doesn't mention herons IIRC - so I guess that is the connection?

Here I go again with the transcript-via-closed-captioning. Hope this helps re: the blue Heron reference in the 1950s @gingerella

Raymond: Shh, shh, shh.  Hush, Madonna.  If they find me here, I'm finished.

Claire: Master Raymond.

Raymond: Tell me what you see, Madonna.

Claire: Oh, wings. Blue wings.

Raymond: Mm, blue with the color of healing. The wings will carry your pain away, if you let them.

21 minutes ago, gingerella said:

The whole situation where King Louis expects Claire to service him afterwards as payment for releasing Jamie, it was so perfunctory, like he had to do it because that's what a King does in such situations

That's exactly what I saw happening.  Louis IS the law and all powerful. But he takes that power for granted and abuses it. He's bored. 

 

24 minutes ago, gingerella said:

but it didn't even feel like rape to me, it felt like a really sad exchange, and he didn't even seem to enjoy it.

I was just grateful that there's only one BJR in this story. 
 

[gingerella]

1 hour ago, Anothermi said:

Here I go again with the transcript-via-closed-captioning. Hope this helps re: the blue Heron reference in the 1950s @gingerella

Raymond: Shh, shh, shh.  Hush, Madonna.  If they find me here, I'm finished.

Claire: Master Raymond.

Raymond: Tell me what you see, Madonna.

Claire: Oh, wings. Blue wings.

Raymond: Mm, blue with the color of healing. The wings will carry your pain away, if you let them.

Yes, thank you Madam Closed Caption! My closed caption function screws up my TV royally and takes forever to back out of, so thank you for this!

I almost forgot another favorite scene, when Raymond explains why he calls Claire 'Madonna', because she has the blue aura of the Madonna/Mother Mary around her, yes? That was a lovely full circle for this Viewer, to finally understand why he had called her that from the beginning of their relationship.

Does Louis say he's going to appeal to the British authorities to get Jamie cleared of charges so he can go back to Scotland, or did he just say basically, 'you'll be wanting to get the hell out of France now'? I wasn't sure.

[Anothermi]

45 minutes ago, gingerella said:

Does Louis say he's going to appeal to the British authorities to get Jamie cleared of charges so he can go back to Scotland, or did he just say basically, 'you'll be wanting to get the hell out of France now'?

Took some looking, but this was what he said after the "payment":

Louis: I will issue a pardon for your husband and arrange one with the English crown should you wish to return to Scotland.

 

[gingerella]

50 minutes ago, Anothermi said:

Took some looking, but this was what he said after the "payment":

Louis: I will issue a pardon for your husband and arrange one with the English crown should you wish to return to Scotland.

 

That's what I thought he said. So I wonder if the pardon is for the crime that he has a bounty on his head for and now that part will be done with...yeah right...wishful thinking!

[Pallas]

11 hours ago, gingerella said:

I'm not sure why we needed to see 1950's Claire and her and Jamie's daughter at the top of this episode.

I think it was meant to reassure us that Claire's other child by Jamie -- another red-haired daughter -- would survive and thrive. While it nods to how very indirectly Claire alludes to her first child and her time in the past.

[SassAndSnacks]

On 4/10/2021 at 1:58 AM, Anothermi said:

I really do appreciate that this show gives us the "hidden" reality of women in history. The birth scene, the fact that women were as impacted by a rape, or the loss of a child as in present times. It's not glossed over and hand waved away.

This is a huge selling point of the show, for me anyway.  In how many other shows have we seen a sexual experience from a female gaze?  How many other shows are able to both accurately, yet sensitively portray things like the frightening (f-ing terrifying) reality of childbirth in those times, as well as the regularity, yet heartbreaking truth of miscarriage.  

This was my first time re-watching this episode because I just can't with this one.  When have I ever seen a woman losing her child depicted so accurately? So graphic, so heartbreaking, so flat-out messy, and so true.  Like many other women, I've lived this, and the portrayal here is honest and sensitive.  I appreciate this show so much for that.  

On 4/10/2021 at 1:58 AM, Anothermi said:

Claire stops being a caricature of a strong woman and becomes real  one. 

For me, the Claire we've seen so far this season has lost herself after she seemingly found herself after going through the stones last season. In many parts of the Paris storyline, I didn't recognize her and she didn't seem to recognize herself.

19 hours ago, gingerella said:

I find myself still taking the show runners to task over showing child rape, which was really unnecessary. There are so many ways we could have gotten the point without as much detail. It really feels like the Viewer was violated as well. I know that some might say that is the point, but I don't think it's needed.

Completely agree.  Violence on children is off-limits, as far as I'm concerned.  

19 hours ago, gingerella said:

Also, I was a bit confounded and confused when Raymond was seemingly sick immediately from the potion, but seemed to immediately recover.

Ha!  This made me think of The Princess Bride and the iocane powder scene.  Maybe he's slowly been tippling the cascara and building a tolerance for it?

19 hours ago, gingerella said:

I also was having a difficult time during the entire time Claire was at the King's palace because she's just lost her baby and yet it seems like she's fine, so fine in fact that she can allow the King to use her for sex. I wish we'd seen some of her grappling with the loss of Faith, instead of just seeing her come home and be upset in one scene.

When she tells Mother Hildergarde that it'll "just be one more thing that [she's] lost in Paris," I took that to mean a shut-down of emotions, a resignation of her feelings, what's happened, and the circumstances.  This is just one more thing she has to do and a burden she will add to the load she is carrying.  I also got the sense that she had been in the hospital for some time and that a few weeks had transpired before she learned from Fergus what really happened.  I'm hoping so anyway because ouch and eww and no, otherwise.  

19 hours ago, gingerella said:

Seriously, with all the amazing costuming they do on this show, that was the best beard they could come up with?

I have so much to say about this because...ugh....and yet I can't because unsulliness and such.  Let's just say, Jamie's hair is a long-time topic of conversation on these boards and others.  

19 hours ago, gingerella said:

What I liked about this scene was the flashbacks to Claire holding Faith (this show uses the flashback to masterful effect IMO, similar to The Wedding), and what that did to her, that ripped her guts out, and yet she finally admits that something tragic and awful was her fault and her fault alone.

Crushed me.  In a vast majority of miscarriages, it is never the mother's (or anyone's) fault.  It's just the body's way of responding to something that isn't quite right, so it always hurts me to see women blame themselves for it.  And I certainly did.  Maybe if I hadn't worked so much, stayed off my feet more, taken better care of myself...on and on.  But it isn't anyone's fault, it just happens, and that is incredibly difficult to accept.  Women, we always try to care for things and fix things, and she couldn't fix this.   

In terms of creating a stressful situation, trying to do something they really had no ability or business to do, being demanding, being unempathetic, asking the unthinkable of your husband, yeah...there's some blame there.  But hindsight is 20/20 and everything is easier to analyze and solve after the fact.  When you're in it, you feel like you are doing the right thing, the best thing, otherwise you wouldn't do it.  So yeah, I forgive you, too, Claire.  

19 hours ago, Anothermi said:

Louis IS the law and all powerful. But he takes that power for granted and abuses it. He's bored. 

This is a great observation.  It's just the expectation that he would do this.  It is what is done, protocol, if you will.  He didn't even finish, so it wasn't like it was for pleasure. It was like putting a punctuation mark on the sentence.  It is what  you do to end the transaction.  

Edited April 12, 2021 by SassAndSnacks

[Pallas]

5 minutes ago, SassAndSnacks said:

I also got the sense that she had been in the hospital for some time and that a few weeks had transpired before she learned from Fergus what really happened. 

Yes, on her return home in the carriage, she says that she had remained in the hospital for weeks after the birth. 

12 minutes ago, SassAndSnacks said:

When I have I ever seen a woman losing her child depicted so accurately? So graphic, so heartbreaking, so flat-out messy, and so true.  Like many other women, I've lived this, and the portrayal here is honest and sensitive.  I appreciate this show so much for that.  

And I appreciate this, and what you wrote below, about Claire's taking on the fault. You have my heartfelt sympathy. 

14 minutes ago, SassAndSnacks said:

Crushed me. In a vast majority of miscarriages, it is never the mother's (or anyone's) fault.  It's just the body's way of responding to something that isn't quite right, so it always hurts me to see women blame themselves for it.  And I certainly did.  Maybe it I hadn't worked so much, stayed off my feet more, taken better care of myself...on and on.  But it isn't anyone's fault, it just happens, and that is incredibly difficult to accept.  Women, we always try to care for things and fix things, and she couldn't fix this.   

Amen.

[Cdh20]

18 hours ago, gingerella said:

 As he started talking, I was yelling inside my own head, "Jamie, TELL HER WHAT YOU TOLD US...TELL HER NOW!!!" And he did, and I love his character all the more for that. It was the most humane and loving thing he could have done in that moment. The last scene of them at Faith's grave, grieving together, was to me another nail in their 'togetherness'. I am certain now, that the remaining/upcoming 3.5 seasons that are already done, they will be about this couple. Yes I'm sure we shall see Frank again, but THIS is THE couple, there is no doubt about that now. They are bound together so deeply now, that they can never truly be apart from one another. 

 

This is a marriage make or break moment...so I love what you said. 

[Anothermi]

2 hours ago, SassAndSnacks said:

For me, the Claire we've seen so far this season has lost herself after she seemingly found herself after going through the stones last season. In many parts of the Paris storyline, I didn't recognize her and she didn't seem to recognize herself.

I'm going to be careful going forward. I was starting to like Claire at the beginning and felt betrayed by the show until this point. I even tried to blame hormones for the way Claire was acting in Paris (being bossy to the staff, completely oblivious to her husband's openness to her and definitely unwilling—or so it appeared—to give him an inch of understanding). But why the show gave her that drastic  personality swap is a mystery to me. 

I am hesitantly willing for Claire to make mistakes in the future, just not personality changing ones. 

2 hours ago, SassAndSnacks said:

Maybe he's slowly been tippling the cascara and building a tolerance for it?

Yeah. I imagined a scene where we were told/shown this as the reason he recovered so quickly so I could move on. 

2 hours ago, SassAndSnacks said:

When she tells Mother Hildergarde that it'll "just be one more thing that [she's] lost in Paris," I took that to mean a shut-down of emotions, a resignation of her feelings, what's happened, and the circumstances.  This is just one more thing she has to do and a burden she will add to the load she is carrying.

So well put. I also harkened back to this exchange she had with the Priest:

Mere Hildegarde: This is Father Laurentin. It is customary to perform an unction of the sick, my child. It has been several days now. Your fever is very high. It is wise to prepare the soul.

Claire: I need my husband.

Mere Hildegarde: I'm sorry, ma chère, there has been no word.

Claire: My sins are all I have left.
So poignant.

2 hours ago, SassAndSnacks said:

In terms of creating a stressful situation, trying to do something they really had no ability or business to do, being demanding, being unempathetic, asking the unthinkable of your husband, yeah...there's some blame there.  But hindsight is 20/20 and everything is easier to analyze and solve after the fact.  When you're in it, you feel like you are doing the right thing, the best thing, otherwise you wouldn't do it.  So yeah, I forgive you, too, Claire.  

Thank you for all you shared in this and I agree with what @Pallas said of your previous paragraph. It was these scenes that allowed me to forgive Claire as well—and to finally breath again.

[gingerella]

3 hours ago, SassAndSnacks said:

 

21 hours ago, gingerella said:

What I liked about this scene was the flashbacks to Claire holding Faith (this show uses the flashback to masterful effect IMO, similar to The Wedding), and what that did to her, that ripped her guts out, and yet she finally admits that something tragic and awful was her fault and her fault alone.

Crushed me.  In a vast majority of miscarriages, it is never the mother's (or anyone's) fault.  It's just the body's way of responding to something that isn't quite right, so it always hurts me to see women blame themselves for it.  And I certainly did.  Maybe if I hadn't worked so much, stayed off my feet more, taken better care of myself...on and on.  But it isn't anyone's fault, it just happens, and that is incredibly difficult to accept.  Women, we always try to care for things and fix things, and she couldn't fix this.   

In terms of creating a stressful situation, trying to do something they really had no ability or business to do, being demanding, being unempathetic, asking the unthinkable of your husband, yeah...there's some blame there.  But hindsight is 20/20 and everything is easier to analyze and solve after the fact.  When you're in it, you feel like you are doing the right thing, the best thing, otherwise you wouldn't do it.  So yeah, I forgive you, too, Claire.  

@SassAndSnacks, I'm so sorry you suffered a similar loss, my heart goes out to you, sincerely. Although not uncommon, miscarriage is treated so weirdly, at least in the US, more like "oh well, let's move on" and there is not much social construct for grieving such losses, which is surprising given the frequency. 

I also wanted to say that I didn't mean that Claire was responsible for her miscarriage per se, more like she'd been banging around without acting very pregnant for so long in this season, that one can almost forget she's even pregnant until the very end because those dresses hide so much. But even more so, that she took responsibility for anything major that has happened because thus far in this Story, she seems to always blame Jamie, so it was a profound moment to me. And it also allowed for Jamie to tell Claire what he'd already told us last season, which was a beautiful and poignant moment for this Viewer.

3 hours ago, SassAndSnacks said:

 

21 hours ago, Anothermi said:

Louis IS the law and all powerful. But he takes that power for granted and abuses it. He's bored. 

This is a great observation.  It's just the expectation that he would do this.  It is what is done, protocol, if you will.  He didn't even finish, so it wasn't like it was for pleasure. It was like putting a punctuation mark on the sentence.  It is what  you do to end the transaction.  

Yes to all the above! I couldn't help thinking 'please don't let Claire get pregnant so soon again, but by the King, god no!' So I hope you're right and he didn't complete his 'transaction'. Uch.

[Cdh20]

Claire was warned that the price of Jamie’s freedom would be to have sex with the king, so I see this as a business deal. A crappy deal, but one non the less. If you look up the real king, he had a reputation for this, but indeed pulled out so as to not have too many bastards running around. I assumed by the length of Jamie’s beard it had been a few months. 
 

Also I wish we did not see Fergus being raped, or better yet, this should have been an attempted rape, which would have brought on the same result as far as Jamie is concerned.

Edited April 12, 2021 by Cdh20

[SassAndSnacks]

 

9 hours ago, Pallas said:

And I appreciate this, and what you wrote below, about Claire's taking on the fault. You have my heartfelt sympathy. 

 

6 hours ago, gingerella said:

my heart goes out to you, sincerely. Although not uncommon, miscarriage is treated so weirdly, at least in the US, more like "oh well, let's move on" and there is not much social construct for grieving such losses, which is surprising given the frequency. 

Thank you both. I appreciate that so much.  It was several years ago, and I've had two other babes since then.  Miscarriage is treated so differently here, almost as though it is inappropriate to talk about.  I had already delivered a healthy, thriving child at that point, and I knew nothing about miscarriage.  As a result, I assumed because I already had a baby, I was in the clear and everything would be fine.  It wasn't fine.  And the treatment, both medically and emotionally, during and after the fact were awful.  The sentiment among the doctor and nurses really was just move on and have another one.  We never discussed it with our friends and family.  We just moved on like we were supposed to.  

6 hours ago, gingerella said:

I also wanted to say that I didn't mean that Claire was responsible for her miscarriage per se

I'm so sorry if I implied that I thought you did.  I didn't think that at all.  Your comments didn't crush me - Claire's confession that it was her fault hurts my heart.  

7 hours ago, Anothermi said:

But why the show gave her that drastic  personality swap is a mystery to me. 

I am hesitantly willing for Claire to make mistakes in the future, just not personality changing ones. 

I like to think that they are showing us where Claire is comfortable and where she is not.  For all her crazy upbringing, she does not adjust well to certain situations.  Unlike Jamie, she can't just hop in and read the room.  If that isn't what the showrunners were going for, then I'm just as confused as you are!

7 hours ago, Anothermi said:

Mere Hildegarde: This is Father Laurentin. It is customary to perform an unction of the sick, my child. It has been several days now. Your fever is very high. It is wise to prepare the soul.

Claire: I need my husband.

Mere Hildegarde: I'm sorry, ma chère, there has been no word.

Claire: My sins are all I have left.
So poignant.

This exchange breaks me.  I cannot imagine going through all of that alone.  No one to hold your hand, smooth your hair, dry your tears.  Not only had she lost her child, she was lying there in peurperal fever, near death.  And no Jamie.  Gah, I can't even consider it.  It would have been so easy to simply let go and let it consume her.  

And it also makes me so sad to think that there was nothing they could do for her. The number of women who had to have lain in similar situations for centuries boggles my mind.  Women truly are warriors.  

4 hours ago, Cdh20 said:

Also I wish we did not see Fergus being raped, or better yet, this should have been an attempted rape, which would have brought on the same result as far as Jamie is concerned.

Oh goodness, SAME!  It didn't need to happen and certainly didn't need to be seen.  We all know this is fiction, but that was a child actor portraying this.  

[mythoughtis]

Claire had already been bleeding prior to the duel- that’s why Hildegard kept her there the night before.  Should she have stayed home rather than go to the duel site?  Possibly, but people went about their business right up until the last minute and then often again right afterwards( Jenny searching for Jamie on horseback). I think Claire would have lost the child no matter what she did. 
I did however appreciate her acknowledgment that it wasn’t  Jamie’s fault.  She’s spent the last season and a half thinking she was right about everything and everyone else was wrong.   It would have  been good if she had told Jamie how quick and boring lying with the king was. 
 

I was saddened by the fact that Claire and her daughter were still in the 20th century several years later.   

 

[Maisiesmom]

Well, that episode really got me weepy. Poor Fergus! I guess BlackJack will stick his dick in anything God I hate that guy! And poor Claire losing her baby really got me in the feels. It reminded me of a time I was sent to the hospital to pick up a stillborn (before I retired I was a funeral director) Anyway, this young girl had given birth and her mother called and wanted us to come and take the baby into our care. When I got to the hospital a nurse met me at the elevator and told me the new mom wouldn't let anyone take her baby from her. She had given birth in the wee hours of the morning and it was now about noon. She knew I was coming but I really didn't want to be there. So I went in the room, introduced myself and I had brought a blanket for the wee one. I told the new mom we would take good care of her child and I was sorry this had happened. I opened the blanket and let her put the babe in it, then quickly left before she could change her mind. I could hear her cries all the way down the hall and the nurses came and thanked me for coming. Anyway,I digress. So glad they are going back to Scotland even though France was interesting, the beautiful colors and costumes and how fancy everything was- the houses, carriages and all that. Tonight will be more binging!