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Season 12 Spoilers, Speculation and Anticipation

Danielg342

By Danielg342
in Criminal Minds

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wknt3

wknt3

(edited)

At this point I think all we can say is that nobody deserves our total support except the remaining cast and crew. Physical altercations with colleagues are unacceptable in any workplace. And while ordinarily this would be open and shut TPTB have long sense any trust in their judgement or benefit of the doubt. There's just too much history there. I had hoped that this season would reverse the decline and give me a reason to tune in on a regular basis and would give a show I loved once a chance of going out on something of a high note. If their time slot competition can do it why not CM? Now I just hope that they don't embarrass themselves too badly and that MGG, Joe Mantegna, etc. don't suffer too badly and move on to better things. And that they get a proper finale instead of just going out with a whimper.

Edited by wknt3
autocorrect fail. "their" not "there"
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WendyCR72
WendyCR72

If this was Gibson's first rodeo in terms of physical violence, I'd say this reaction is an overreaction. However, it isn't. So he got more chances with even having the first instance be all "bygones"

Princess Lucky
Princess Lucky

Actually, close your eyes and replay the situation like so: What if this producer had kicked TG? What if TG had kicked MGG? What if TG had kicked Erica Messer? What if Erica Messer

Princess Lucky
Princess Lucky

But this is the second instance of violence from TG. He "shoved" another person years ago, and that was swept under the rug (obviously, since we're just now finding out about it). Who was that other p

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Willowy

Willowy

8 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

No , I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that going by the Variety article and previous known incidents that TG is the one that created a hostile working environment. 

I have no idea what anyone is saying on Twitter but, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that if anyone else involved in this incident, especially a writer, was violent or contributing to a hostile work environment they'd have been fired along with TG. From what i can tell this guy is a writer with a Producer credit  (which just gives him extra $ and probably residuals). There is no way that CBS/ABC would protect a Writer over an Actor/Star.

However, going by comments here it seems people would prefer to blame the the other guy  (who wasn't violent) in order to mitigate/excuse TGs actions. 

Not me. To me, it's not Virgil that's looking worse and worse, it's Thomas. I'm devastated Hotch is gone, I mean really flattened. He did it to himself, though. I feel sorry for "Hotch", the character. He deserved a better ending than this. 

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FormerMod-a1

FormerMod-a1

You know him?  You've interacted with him personally?  I don't know him, I don't know Thomas.  So I've not been on the receiving end of anything regarding either of them.  But regardless, someone could be yelling in my face and I would not have the right to hit or kick them.  If I did, I would be in the wrong.  I have the right to be annoyed, walk away, go to HR, yell back even, but it wouldn't even cross my mind to get physical, nor should it.

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thewhiteowl

thewhiteowl

1 minute ago, Old Dog said:

I've seen how he behaves on social media - very unprofessionally! He reacts to any criticism however constructive like a high school mean girl! I know TG was in the wrong but I do believe there was some extreme provocation.

And you have every right to believe so and post so.

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Snow Apple

Snow Apple

16 hours ago, Danielg342 said:

-Lastly, could Derek Morgan come back? Shemar Moore hated working with Gibson...maybe this allows him to come back to the show. I think I'd like it (Morgan was my favourite, after all) and Morgan actually does have experience leading the BAU, so it could work.

Really? I don't know much about the two so I never heard that. Interesting and sad as a CM fan.

Bookish Jen

Bookish Jen

Despite my love for Hotch, TG has a history of bad behavior that has caused problems for the cast and crew, much of it including physical violence. This latest incident was the final nail in the coffin. If any of us got physically violent with a co-worker we'd most likely be canned from our jobs. Believe me, people get fired for far less.

That being said, workplace abuse isn't just physical. It can also be mental and emotional, which includes sexual harassment, using bullying words and speech, petty and vindictive behavior, stealing other peoples' ideas and "gaslighting" someone into quitting.

From what I've heard and read about Virgil Williams, he doesn't exactly seem like a prize to work with either.

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zannej

zannej

46 minutes ago, Sparger Springs said:

http://www.rawstory.com/2016/08/former-criminal-minds-star-shemar-moore-posts-cryptic-message-on-instagram/

I'm guessing Thomas Gibson was a pain the ass. 

I just read the article and it mentioned that he just won a lawsuit against a former friend who stole from his MS charity.  It might have had absolutely NOTHING to do with TG.

I think that even though Rossi is too old to realistically be on the show anymore, he already has experience as the Unit Chief, so I could see him getting the position. I do wish Reid would get his own office though.

I wouldn't want to be Breen Frazier about now. I bet Erica Messer is relieved she jumped on to the little lifeboat to get off this sinking ship.

I do wish they could find a way to work it out to have TG film additional scenes at a location off the set just to wrap up Hotch's storyline.

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Bookish Jen

Bookish Jen

I could see Rossi as unit chief, too. He is a bit long in the tooth to being out in the field. Plus, by staying within the confines of an office he can protect his precious Italian leather shoes (and imbibe is some of that single malt Scotch he so loves very now and then).

Yes, a million times yes-Reid does deserve an office by now, but though he has both seniority and leadership qualities, I think the paper work, politics and bureaucracy of being unit chief would drive him batty. He's just not a manager type.

UncleChuck

UncleChuck

Quote

I'd rather they brought someone completely new in than put Prentiss as Unit Chief.

I'd rather see Prentiss, Rossi, or even JJ as new Unit Chief rather than bringing in someone new, and here's why.  To replace a lead actor in a show such as this, TPTB would likely search around to find an actor who could bring "star power" and prestige to the show.  These folks do not come cheap.  Not only do they command a very large salary, possibly larger even than established members of the current ensemble, but that large salary might stir up resentment and jealousy among the current cast.  Even more problematic to viewers is that these power-players actors employ power-player agents, and these agents will not let their client sign until the new actor is GUARANTEED a certain number of episodes featuring his/her character, that the new actor is GUARANTEED to have stipulated number of lines/minutes of screen time per show, and other perks.   This all a part of the contract that must be followed before the writers even begin to figure out what to do.  These are the contracts that give us "Super Ray" type of superstars who become the center focus of the show when they are supposed to be a rookie.  Contracts can really screw up a show.

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Danielg342

Danielg342

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My opinion about Virgil Williams being an ass is that it all seems to come from Gibson's people...that is, I raise serious questions about whether or not Williams truly was a despicable guy or if it's just Gibson trying to save his reputation. At best, Williams and Gibson had a personality clash and never got along on the set, which escalated into the kick. What seems more likely, though, is that Gibson was the difficult one, and my guess is this latest incident was the tipping point.

As for what we do with Hotch- I too would want a scene or two to wrap up his character, perhaps a video where he explains the Mr. Scratch thing has gone too far and he now has to go into witness protection. Perhaps after Mr. Scratch got to Jack. He'd also explain that he'll accept a new job outside of the U.S. and will be there for the time being, since Mr. Scratch was "the last straw" and he felt the need to "retire".

Here's what I do know- and, sadly I think it's what we'll get- I don't want the characters after Hotch is gone to prattle on about how "bad" of a leader he was and basically spend whole scenes assassinating his character. I get feelings now would not be that favourable towards Gibson, and I could understand if the characters expressed some "relief" that he's gone. However, they did have some positive memories of Hotch so even if they do go the route of "I'm happy he's gone", they at least remember that they did have some good times with Hotch and that he was still a capable leader.

38 minutes ago, Old Dog said:

I'd rather they brought someone completely new in than put Prentiss as Unit Chief.

I do believe we're getting someone completely new, and it'll be someone with "star power" to replace Gibson. I could see this new person getting the brunt of the attention as the season wears on, since CBS isn't going to hire a "name brand" actor or actress and only have them deliver a line or two in each episode. Hopefully it won't be too much attention, as I think that would be unfortunate since guys like Rossi and Reid have been shoved to the background too much and deserve some more screen time.

I'm torn between whether or not I want a new person as Unit Chief. At the very least, this new person can't be "competent right away" and needs to have an adjustment period with the team. I definitely don't want a scenario where the new person comes in and the rest of the team is beside themselves fawning about how great their new Chief is or is going to be- that would be very hokey and completely unrealistic, and frankly very unentertaining.

I wouldn't mind, though, a brash Unit Chief who comes in and assumes "they knows everything" and babies the team before eventually learning to mellow and realize that their charges know what they've been doing for a while. Just as long as the "change" isn't just brought upon by a pep talk from Rossi.

While we're at it, should we throw some names out here? Michael Chiklis is gone from Gotham...maybe he'd work.

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Bookish Jen

Bookish Jen

20 minutes ago, normasm said:

Booky, you're thinking Section Chief, like Strauss. That's the job that would keep him cooped up in an office, which he would hate. Hotch was Unit Chief, and, of course, very much in the field.

Oops, you're right. Damn you, CM, for making me all stressed out and forgetting there is a difference between section chief and unit chief.

Shakes fist at the heavens above.

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Danielg342

Danielg342

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I'm not sure Reid would want the Unit Chief job or be good at it anyway. He doesn't strike me as the type that would want to make decisions for others, and I figure he overthinks everything and already places a lot of pressure on himself in his current job, so why would he want to take a position where others would pile on that pressure?

No disrespect to the character- I just can't see it as a good fit.

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normasm

normasm

Just now, Danielg342 said:

I'm not sure Reid would want the Unit Chief job or be good at it anyway. He doesn't strike me as the type that would want to make decisions for others, and I figure he overthinks everything and already places a lot of pressure on himself in his current job, so why would he want to take a position where others would pile on that pressure?

No disrespect to the character- I just can't see it as a good fit.

I agree totally, and it's no diss on Reid. He's used to being called on to do certain things, to think in the abstract. He's not good at delegating tasks, although he's certainly good at brainstorming with others. I think your point about taking on pressure in his current position, I don't think he'd be good at telling others to take on the dangerous tasks.

But, he still should get a swanky new office so he can sit and think in peace... =)

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stillbored

stillbored

I read that the argument between Gibson and Virgil occurred because Virgil was harrassing Paget and saying very inappropriate things to her. (I have no idea if that is true or not). 

The rumor that Gibson started to walk away and then turned and kicked because he thought Virgil was coming after him is interesting- because if that was the case then Gibson might not completely be at fault cos I can understand why one might be defensive and nervouse if the guy that he had just had an argument with was that close to him that he could kick him. (Because if I just got into an argument with someone and i started walking away and the person started following me, I would be probably be scared/nervous/spidey senses tingling).

Princess Lucky

Princess Lucky

When they brought in Joe Mantegna, he was a "big name" actor but he didn't exactly take over the show. And, considering TG's screentime had already been reduced, I could see TPTB bringing in a similarly famous actor or actress, older and only there to fill the role of the "leader" without really becoming the new "star" of the show. There's plenty of characters to share the screentime, with JJ, Reid (hopefully) and Adam Rodriguez getting the bulk of it, probably. I would love it if Paget came back permanently, but I don't want to get my hopes up. If she doesn't, I could see the show bringing in a Sela Ward-type actress, you know? Not there to be the main focus, but taking up an important role.

I guess we'll know if they're casting anybody soon enough. Or if they're talking to Paget about making more appearances, maybe to smooth the transition along (if not to become a regular again).

SSAHotchner

SSAHotchner

Danielg, I knew Virgil was a dick before this incident. He has behaved petulantly on Twitter for some time. Even when negative comments about episodes he'd written weren't on his page or directed specifically toward him, he'd post little snide remarks, block posters, and even resort to arguing with posters. I don't doubt he'd react similarly with his co-workers. 

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Danielg342

Danielg342

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My thoughts:

  • Hotch is recast with a different actor- No, just no. Too hokey, there's no way you can ever justifiably explain it. Plus, this is a procedural- the characters are supposed to be somewhat "disposable".
  • Hotch quits, with no on-screen goodbye, because he can't stomach the job anymore- Possible, but I can't see Hotch being a "quitter". Especially in the middle of an important case.
  • Hotch quits, with no on-screen goodbye, to focus on family/personal life- Perhaps, but I could only justify this if there was a close call with regards to Jack. I doubt Hotch would quit, mid-case, unless the situation warrants it.
  • Hotch takes a new job, with no on-screen goodbye- Again, Hotch isn't a quitter. He'd have to be forced into this situation.
  • Hotch dies- Probably the most salivating one from a writer's perspective (nothing beats the punch of a death) but my issue with this is that it's permanent. Not to make apologies for what Hotch did, but what if we get to S15 or something and Hotch and Virgil Williams patch things up? It would then suck if Hotch couldn't be in the CM finale.
  • Hotch mysteriously vanishes- TVLine says Peter Lewis could use mind control to make Hotch disappear but this feels hokey and too "science-fiction-y" for me to believe. I could buy an alternate scenario where Hotch vanishes for other more "down to Earth" reasons. I think I'd prefer this one because at least it gives the option to bring him back should Hotch's situation and the feeling in the producer's room about him improves.
  • Hotch gets fired- I added this one. I could totally buy a situation where Hotch, due to the stresses of his job, lashes out against an inferior and gets fired by the FBI for it. Yeah, it'd be too much "fiction mirrors reality" but it could be a nice way for the writers to "write" how frustrating it must be to adjust for this new reality, and it does send the message to the fans that what Gibson did was wrong. Just as long as this scenario doesn't resemble too much what Gibson did to Williams, I'd be fine with it. The only issue here would be is that Hotch would likely still want to "continue" with the case, like he did with the Joe Smith case, but this could be done via texts or phone calls to Rossi.
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ForeverAlone

ForeverAlone

The "easiest" thing they could do is turn whatever Hotch's "temporary" assignment was due to his real-world suspension into a permanent job. That keeps him alive, healthy, in the FBI and still accessible for future cases (if this issue ever gets resolved enough for Thomas to return, even as a guest star). The only way I can see them killing Hotch off, is if they have Mr. Scratch kill him offscreen and then they have to track him down, but that would be a near repeat of Gideon's unfortunate demise, so they probably won't go there. 

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SSAHotchner

SSAHotchner

1 hour ago, ForeverAlone said:

The "easiest" thing they could do is turn whatever Hotch's "temporary" assignment was due to his real-world suspension into a permanent job. That keeps him alive, healthy, in the FBI and still accessible for future cases (if this issue ever gets resolved enough for Thomas to return, even as a guest star). The only way I can see them killing Hotch off, is if they have Mr. Scratch kill him offscreen and then they have to track him down, but that would be a near repeat of Gideon's unfortunate demise, so they probably won't go there. 

Let's hope they don't go there, not that I'll be watching. We also don't really know what's in those first two episodes they filmed. But hey, these writers haven't worried about continuity at all for the past 5-6 years. CBS put themselves in this situation without thinking how they were going to deal with the onscreen repercussions. Again, not a first for them. And let's face it, they all think they're smarter than the viewing audience anyway and that we won't notice when what they write is inconsistent and/or doesn't make a bit of sense. I really don't see any way that this whole season isn't going to be a nightmare. I'm sorry for the cast having to deal with it. I'm especially sorry for Paget. She agrees to come back, yet again, after the horrible way they treated her and now she's back in the middle of a shit storm once more. 

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Willowy

Willowy

I hear you, SSAHotchner. I do think though, that Paget could actually save their bacon. We'll see, but its just a feeling I have. Prentiss is super-popular, and super-capable. If CM has ever had anyone close to a Hotchner other than Aaron, it's Emily. With all the female-led shows cropping up lately, this could be an excellent choice for Criminal Minds. *crosses fingers*

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SSAHotchner

SSAHotchner

1 hour ago, Franky said:

I hear you, SSAHotchner. I do think though, that Paget could actually save their bacon. We'll see, but its just a feeling I have. Prentiss is super-popular, and super-capable. If CM has ever had anyone close to a Hotchner other than Aaron, it's Emily. With all the female-led shows cropping up lately, this could be an excellent choice for Criminal Minds. *crosses fingers*

I love Paget to pieces. I feel she's able to really make something of the sometimes horrible lines they give her. She's a dynamic presence on screen and she is smart and able to take charge. She would be a good team leader and it would be refreshing to have a female leader. But no matter who they bring in or whether the atmosphere is all sunshine and rainbows on set, the writing still largely sucks. When you can count the number of decent episodes per season on one hand...And even having Paget there and putting her in charge, if they go that way, won't erase the tension on the set from this current situation and the loss of an actor and friend they enjoyed working with. It's going to be tough on the players, is all I'm saying, even if they can get the audience to buy whatever they come up with in terms of an explanation.

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rainbowrockgal

rainbowrockgal

Although I do not want them to kill off Hotch...just in case (wishful thinking).  I think they could and drag it out most of the season.  In a earlier season he was sent to Afghanistan, don't remember what he was doing then but he could be sent back.  Rossi could take over his duties while he is gone.  Some time later in the season, Hotch is killed by an IED.  Closed casket service with lots of nice words said about him. (Not written by VW obviously.)  Kind of blows the Mr. Scratch story line out of the water though.

Lebanna

Lebanna

5 hours ago, BW Manilowe said:

Thomas has hired lawyers; they're looking into whether or not there's a potential lawsuit over Thomas's dismissal.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/thr-esq/thomas-gibson-mulls-lawsuit-criminal-919367

This is a sensible thing to do, to look into it. Look at all the options. But actually going through with it? Pretty sure they'll drag his name through the mud so badly he'll never work again. As the article says, even Charlie Sheen didn't get fired for physical assault. Gibson was in the wrong. Maybe at some point someone else was wrong too, but it doesn't cancel out that he was wrong. Best to just let it go.

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smoker

smoker

His past offenses are already out and they are trying to gain people's symphaty that way. Thomas Gibson has to look for himself too. Maybe he wants to be paid for the season or compensated some way for the bad publicity and bad publicity isn't enterely his fault because he was quite discret about it, he only spoke when he had to

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normasm

normasm

"Lot of birdies chirping out there; the gossip is real," he said in the video. "I hear it. I see it. I'm sure a lot of you do, too, so I'll just say this: I believe in karma. Good things happen to good people. Honest people. Hard-working people. Humble people. People who believe in basic goodness. People who believe in themselves. People who believe in others. Good things will happen to you; it's not always easy; but you gotta grind it out and you gotta believe in you. Treat people how you expect them to treat you. Celebrate yourself; celebrate your blessings — as you should. But just know that you're not better than anybody. We all have our own gifts, so unwrap them bad boys and show 'em off. But then appreciate other people's gifts. Church is over."

It could be about Thomas, encouraging him, also. That bit about karma, and "good things will happen to you" if you "believe in you." I highly doubt it, but it could be interpreted that way.

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storyskip

storyskip

The lawsuit will bring out details that right now are only speculation.  I suspect CBS/ABC and Williams won't come out of it clean as a whistle so at this point they're the ones with something to lose not Gibson, he's already lost everything.

Right now, with everything that got tossed up into social media and then pulled out, Gibson's career is finished.  He could maybe lie low for awhile and come back in 5 to 10 years but as been said, he's 54 years old.

Best case scenario, CBS/ABC settles and settles big with him and he takes his money and his royalties for CMs and retires to enjoy his children.  Worst case scenario, CBS/ABC and Williams are going to get put under a microscope and Williams' behavior is going to get put on trial.

Because no one is arguing that Gibson stepped over the line when he went physical but there is also no denying that it didn't just drop out of the blue. Williams isn't blameless and Hollywood will be watching.

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