S06.E03: Oathbreaker

[WearyTraveler]

The Kingsguard business is weird.

In the books Oakheart is sent to Dorne to protect Myrcella, after he's assigned that duty, he's pretty much bound to her command, as the impracticalities of communications in Westeros (sending ravens who may or may not make it and then waiting for a raven with a response, who, again, may or may not arrive) make it really difficult for a KG to follow the King's order on every single issue.

I think the France example is a good one, in that Vyserys could have been proclaimed Regent, or even King, and then any legitimate son of Rhaegar could have been proclaimed King after he was discovered and thus either force Vyserys to abdicate or start another war.

I think in the case of the KG at the Tower of Joy, they were assigned to Rhaegar, presumably by the King, so they then followed his command.  Rhaegar died and KL's was under siege by the Lannisters.  Three King's Guard are not going to break the Lannister army and rescue Aerys, so, they have an added reason not to engage into a futile battle, follow their Prince's command and protect someone who could be the next heir.  Could they go to Vyserys? Maybe, but he was in Dragonstone, which was later taken by Stannis.  I haven't read the worldbook, so I don't know what was known to the three at the TOJ, but they could have been told that Stannis had set sail from Storm's End, or they could have thought that they wouldn't make it to Dragonstone on time.  As I recall, they didn't have any boats.  Leaving Rhaegar's possible heir unprotected, breaking their oath to their Prince... these would have been issues they would have considered.

Also, by the time Rhaegar died and KL's was under siege, it was clear the Dragons were losing. No big army was coming to their aid.  Perhaps one consideration was to protect Rhaegar's offspring in the hope of saving him/her from certain death and hide him/her until such as time as he/she could be brought out into the open, or not.  It must have been clear that any Targaryen was in danger at that point.  Perhaps they were thinking about the long game, as Jon Connington was with (f)Aegon.  They couldn't have known that anyone in Dragonstone was going to make it out alive.

ETA: There are strong suggestions that Rhaegar believed that "The Prince that was promised" would be one of his children.  In Dany's vision, he seems to think it's Aegon, but then he met Lyanna and perhaps something clicked.  From Dany's visions in  the HotU we also know that Rhaegar knows about the "song of Ice and Fire", so maybe the thing that clicked when he met Lyanna was that the "prince that was promised" must have both, ice and fire (or he could have interpreted it that way) and Lyanna was the ice. If he believed this, he could have told the three KG at the TOJ that they were protecting, not only his unborn child, but THE prince of prophesy, and that might have trumped any succession issue for the KG: do they protect a King without a throne or do they protect the saviour of the world?

Edited May 11, 2016 by WearyTraveler

[screamin]

1 hour ago, WearyTraveler said:

If he believed this, he could have told the three KG at the TOJ that they were protecting, not only his unborn child, but THE prince of prophesy, and that might have trumped any succession issue for the KG: do they protect a King without a throne or do they protect the saviour of the world?

There's a more concrete reason all three Kingsguard would prefer duty at the Tower of Joy, that doesn't require either oathbreaking or belief in an esoteric prophecy that could be just more Targaryen madness - they know that Rhaegar intends to depose Aerys (as IIRC he strongly hinted to Jaime at their last meeting), and they approve of it, but they want to be well out of the way when it happens so they don't have to choose between breaking their vows by siding with Rhaegar, or keeping their vows and killing Rhaegar, Westeros' Last Best Hope, to save Aerys.

Rhaegar's two bodyguards are no doubt fine with obeying him - they were assigned by Aerys, there's no conflict with their vows to the King to obey the prince. Hightower is the real sticking point. He's the KG Commander. He was sent by Aerys to get Rhaegar back to KL. He doubtless also has the authority to order the other two KG back to KL with him, which is where the KG commander ought to be in times of war. But Hightower stays at the tower with the other 2 KG, and Rhaegar returns to KL alone. Why?

I'd guess by how easily Hightower tracked Rhaegar to his Super-Sekrit Love Nest that he already knew where to find Rhaegar - because he's already a Rhaegar confidante and sympathizer, and Rhaegar's therefore kept him in the loop about his plans. As for what happened once Hightower got there - I'd guess that after too many hours of slaving over a hot torture chamber on Aerys' orders, Gerrold was desperate for any plausible justification for not going back to KL and letting Rhaegar take power without breaking his Kingsguard vows. I'd guess it went something like this:

Hightower: Your lord father requests you return to KL and take command of the armies.

Rhaegar: I refuse to go unless you agree to stay here with my men and guard Lyanna till I return. You cannot fulfill your king's command to get me back to KL unless you agree to stay.

Whereupon Gerrold agrees, and silently thanks all the gods that he now has a fig leaf of vow-preserving excuse to cover the naked relief he feels at leaving Rhaegar free to finally take down that pyromaniac loon.

Unfortunately, they were all so careful to prissily preserve their vows by obeying Rhaegar's wrongheaded orders that they way overestimated Rhaegar's competence, and ended up contributing both to Rhaegar's death AND to the fall of the king they'd sworn their vows to. I'd guess that after that, they decided the only path left to save their honor was to continue to follow the letter of Rhaegar's orders to the bitter end.

[FemmyV]

On 5/10/2016 at 8:38 AM, Dev F said:

I'm no huge fan of Karstark, but I assumed that was just the Smalljon taking a piss.

I thought the 'Karstark likes' em young' was a reference to the Lannister boys that were killed.

TOJ: Lyanna's baby, had Ned not intervened, would either be killed on sight if found by Robert or Tywin (especially Tywin), or used as a pawn by those who would want to have something to keep Robert & Tywin in check, over the years.

It's possible Dayne, himself, might have wanted to take possession of the baby, if for no other reason than a bargaining chip, as someone on the losing side.

About Sam & Gilly: as boring as they are right now, I'm looking forward to seeing Sam 1) confront big daddy 2) tell daddy about the WW and Jon Snow. Because then, Big Daddy is going to have the option of — just maybe — going to the Tyrells with Sam's news.

Spoiler

In the book, Tarley was invited to join the Council

I don't see Book Tarley siding with Sam, not without a major personality change. Heaven knows what Show Tarley will do.

Edited May 12, 2016 by FemmyV

[lucindabelle]

8 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

One thing to remember about Westeros (and medieval nobility in general) is that marriage isn't about love. Its about politics and securing your family's legacy. Ned and Cat were virtual strangers when they married and conceived Robb and yet grew to have one of the most generally successful marriages ever depicted in the series.

One of the things the books make clear is that neither Sansa nor Jon have any illusions about this. Both of them reflect on what it would like to be married (to Willas and Val respectively) and the nature of their spouse was barely even a consideration; it was all about having children named for their dead relatives and recreating the happier times they remembered from their youth with themselves in the role of Cat and Ned respectively.

There's a reason a reason Jon/Sansa is sometimes referred to as Ned/Cat 2.0.

No one I've seen who predicts it has claimed it will be some mad passionate love affair. The claim is almost universally that it will be a political union with which the two can be reasonably content. That's about as close to a happy ending as you're going to get in a story like this.

I actually am aware of the fact that marriage need not be for love. Please don't conescend.

that doesn't in the least alter my opinion that both Jon and Sansa would find the idea of marrying one another repulsive, I would not consider that a satisfying ending, let alone happy. 

 

Theres a a difference between marrying a stranger your family picked and marrying someone you always thought of as a sibling.

[patchwork]

If/when Jon and Sansa reunite I think we'll probably get a clue as to how their relationship will proceed. If they are going to get married their reunion will have a very different feel to two sibling who were never close but are the only family they've seen in years and both of them have been through hell during that time. 

 

It's like how show Sansa/Tyrion having a softer more trusting relationship than their book counterparts has often made me wonder if that marriage is endgame.

[Oscirus]

I don't think this show cares about whether or not a relationship feels squicky. This is a show where a brother raped had rough sex with his sister by the corpse of their dead son. If the relationship is necessary to move the story along they'll do it.

That being said, the fact that there's been zero povs where either Jon or Sansa states their feeling about the other, pretty much tells me they won't end up together.  If they were going to have one, we'd at least see Sansa judging Jon to be a bastard or something of the like. Six seasons in, I'm pretty sure that they won't just start a relationship out of thin air. Also, generally in these types of stories about separated family members, the closest relationships generally tend to reunite last.

There's two chances at a happy ending romance wise. The easy one is that the lord commander somehow changes the NW's stance on relationships and allows for marriage, thereby allowing Sam and Gilly to get together. The other one is so ridiculous that I'll keep that to myself for now.

[Macbeth]

I agree Patchwork.  Why is Sansa and Tyrion ending up together not an option?  They are already married.  Tyrion has always looked out for Sansa as much as he could given his family situation.

[SeanC]

17 minutes ago, Macbeth said:

I agree Patchwork.  Why is Sansa and Tyrion ending up together not an option?  They are already married.  Tyrion has always looked out for Sansa as much as he could given his family situation.

They're not married anymore on the show.  Beyond which, their relationship in the books makes it pretty damn clear they're not staying together; GRRM makes it very, very clear at every turn that they don't understand each other (in particular he doesn't understand her) and that they aren't compatible.  She appreciates his being nicer than the rest of his family, and pities him for how sad he is much of the time, but she doesn't have any interest in being married to him and isn't sexually attracted to him, and I don't see why that would change.

Their relationship is different in the show because the show softens everything about Tyrion, and I expect the writers take the same view as many readers that Tyrion is such a lovable guy that Sansa has no reason not to like him.

[Tikichick]

15 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

One thing to remember about Westeros (and medieval nobility in general) is that marriage isn't about love. Its about politics and securing your family's legacy. Ned and Cat were virtual strangers when they married and conceived Robb and yet grew to have one of the most generally successful marriages ever depicted in the series.

One of the things the books make clear is that neither Sansa nor Jon have any illusions about this. Both of them reflect on what it would like to be married (to Willas and Val respectively) and the nature of their spouse was barely even a consideration; it was all about having children named for their dead relatives and recreating the happier times they remembered from their youth with themselves in the role of Cat and Ned respectively.

There's a reason a reason Jon/Sansa is sometimes referred to as Ned/Cat 2.0.

No one I've seen who predicts it has claimed it will be some mad passionate love affair. The claim is almost universally that it will be a political union with which the two can be reasonably content. That's about as close to a happy ending as you're going to get in a story like this.

I think part of the reason they didn't know each other well when they married was because Catelyn had been betrothed to Brandon Stark, not Ned.

[nksarmi]

2 hours ago, Macbeth said:

I agree Patchwork.  Why is Sansa and Tyrion ending up together not an option?  They are already married.  Tyrion has always looked out for Sansa as much as he could given his family situation.

In the show I think it is an option. Not sure about the books. I think Tyrion could also end up with Dany in the show if she lives. No matter what, I do think somehow Tryion ends up with the high born lady his father wanted for him and he will be a kind husband and reform his drinking/whoring ways - at least on the show.

[SeanC]

22 minutes ago, nksarmi said:

In the show I think it is an option. Not sure about the books. I think Tyrion could also end up with Dany in the show if she lives. No matter what, I do think somehow Tryion ends up with the high born lady his father wanted for him and he will be a kind husband and reform his drinking/whoring ways - at least on the show.

If they weren't with Tyrion in the books, they won't be in the show.  That's the sort of major final detail the writers won't change.

[nksarmi]

1 minute ago, SeanC said:

If they weren't with Tyrion in the books, they won't be in the show.  That's the sort of major final detail the writers won't change.

You are probably right - I'm just thinking show Tyrion is so much more of a white hat than his book counterpart that he will probably get some kind of happy ending even if his book character doesn't. And for some reason, I think that happy ending will involve a pretty girl, power, and Lannister babies. Everything Tywin could have hoped from his son lol!

[Oscirus]

2 hours ago, SeanC said:

If they weren't with Tyrion in the books, they won't be in the show.  That's the sort of major final detail the writers won't change.

Show is the show and the books is the books.  Just because they don't love each other in the books don't mean they can't wind up together for political reasons. If they wind up together then circumstances don't necessarily have to match on the show.

Dany would be an even harder sell. She has nothing to gain from it politically and her heart already belongs to another.

[SeanC]

14 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Just because they don't love each other in the books don't mean they can't wind up together for political reasons.

Struggling against being married off for political reasons is one of the major recurring themes of Sansa's story.

[Oscirus]

Isn't learning how to play the game and taking control of her destiny another theme? It's pretty much what she's doing in the vale right now. 

[screamin]

There'd be a difference between being married off by someone else for political reasons, and deciding to get married yourself for whatever reasons seem convincing to you. Even the most successful marriages in Westeros (like the one Sansa knows personally, Ned and Cat) started out for political reasons and turned into love, which is kind of the best-case scenario there. If Sansa herself has power enough to decide who she's getting married to for what advantage, she's ahead of the game.

Though of course it's been implied that maybe she never wants to marry again, and she'll end up being the quasi-Elizabeth I Virgin Queen of Westeros...

[Knuckles]

I apologize for my obsession with the Umbers...but if they are joining with the Bolton and Karstark armies and heading north to take on the wildlings and presumably Jon Snow, what options does Jon have? We know from the attack by Stannis that armed men on horseback can cut thru the wildling foot soldiers, and we know and Ramsay knows that Castle Black has no defenses from the south, even if Jon and Tormund were to take defensive control of Castle Black.

Will he head for Howland Reed and the cragnogmen, as he advised book Stannis? Send ravens to the Vale, where Littlefinger presumably lurks? A few of the northern vassal houses have already been flayed and their garrisons either killed or absorbed by Ramsay. The Umbers were the northernmost house...who else is left to join with Jon.  He needs a cavalry to take on the combined Bolton forces, I would think.

[WearyTraveler]

There's the Mormonts and the mountain clans that helped Bran when he was travelling North, although that last part didn't make it to the show, and, as you say, the Reeds.  There's also the possibility of a betrayal from within from the Manderlys.

I think it's logical to assume that Ramsay has absorbed whatever is left of the vassal houses, but the show can always have them be as intent upon revenge on Ramsay as the Karstarks are on the Starks.  And they could always have Jon and friends recruit some houses not previously mentioned.  Maybe Sansa can send a raven to LF about those Vale soldiers, or he might already be on his way, since last season Cersei authorized him to attack the North.  Who the Vale supports if/once they get there is left to be seen.

I get the feeling that the show will make up houses, if they have to, so that Jon can beef up his little army, if he decides to head to Winterfell

[FemmyV]

9 hours ago, SeanC said:

They're not married anymore on the show.  Beyond which, their relationship in the books makes it pretty damn clear they're not staying together; GRRM makes it very, very clear at every turn that they don't understand each other (in particular he doesn't understand her) and that they aren't compatible.  She appreciates his being nicer than the rest of his family, and pities him for how sad he is much of the time, but she doesn't have any interest in being married to him and isn't sexually attracted to him, and I don't see why that would change.

Well, it happened for Ned & Cat.

I don't see Sansa & Jon as a politically expedient marriage, either. If anything, it'd be kind of redundant; he's already on track to lead the North. A political match would be one that brings add'l people to the fold, who they might otherwise have to watch their backs with.

 

9 hours ago, Macbeth said:

I agree Patchwork.  Why is Sansa and Tyrion ending up together not an option?  They are already married.  Tyrion has always looked out for Sansa as much as he could given his family situation.

I've often thought Sansa & Tyrion would do well together in the long run, but that was before the Season 6 SuperSansa we've been told about. And Tyrion, right now, is a pity party. Still, it's not outside the realm of possibility that an alliance with Tyrion could, in the future, be helpful in getting/keeping Lannister armies off of Jon Snow's back.

Edited May 12, 2016 by FemmyV

[benteen]

Quote

5 hours ago, WearyTraveler said:

There's the Mormonts and the mountain clans that helped Bran when he was travelling North, although that last part didn't make it to the show, and, as you say, the Reeds.  There's also the possibility of a betrayal from within from the Manderlys.

I think it's logical to assume that Ramsay has absorbed whatever is left of the vassal houses, but the show can always have them be as intent upon revenge on Ramsay as the Karstarks are on the Starks.  And they could always have Jon and friends recruit some houses not previously mentioned.  Maybe Sansa can send a raven to LF about those Vale soldiers, or he might already be on his way, since last season Cersei authorized him to attack the North.  Who the Vale supports if/once they get there is left to be seen.

I get the feeling that the show will make up houses, if they have to, so that Jon can beef up his little army, if he decides to head to Winterfell

I have nothing to say about Tyrion in Meereen.  It's disappointing that Peter Dinklage has been reduced to the comic relief character.  Give him something to do.

I'd like to think both the Mormonts and Glovers would be on Jon's side.  They already set up the Mormonts loyalty to the Starks last season and their remote location protection them from immediate retaliation from Ramsay.

[qtpye]

On 5/12/2016 at 10:17 AM, nksarmi said:

And for some reason, I think that happy ending will involve a pretty girl, power, and Lannister babies. Everything Tywin could have hoped from his son lol!

Beautiful golden hair green eyed Lannister babies that do not grow up to have incestuous relationships with each other.  I do not think show Tyrion will sit on the Iron Throne, but I do think he will end up being the Lord of Casterly Rock, which is something he has always wanted.

[ElDosEquis]

Hodor.

 

"whatcoo talking about Wylis?

[Cthulhudrew]

So Cersei let the High Sparrow into the City and get a stranglehold on its politics. Her solution to oust him? Let in Qyburn with his dark magic, undefeatable warrior, and now his spy ring.

Yeah, that's going to end well.

(And the show seems to have just decided not to bother with the "Ser Robert Strong" deception of the books? Is that new to this episode, or has it just been so long since last season that I completely forgot and they never introduced him that way?)

Edited May 14, 2016 by Cthulhudrew

[Knuckles]

benteen,

Lyanna Mormont is a tough cookie, but she's what, 10 years old? Bear Island is her stronghold and the Glovers are where, Deepwood Motte? I lent the books out so cannot recall. Do the Glovers have any real troops left? Manderley and the forces are nowhere mentioned, so I guess it is Reed and the cragnogmen...though in the books there was a split in House Karstark, again, maybe not in show reality.

Poor Edd, he has what, 20 NW men left at Castle Black? Sansa is presumably heading north, so the Vale remains in Littlefingers hands. Does LF have informers at Winterfell, or any news of Ramsay's doings?  The North Remembers had some coherence in the books, but on the show, Jon and the Wildlings look to be badly outnumbered by the Bolton allied forces. And again, Jon needs men on horseback...only the Vale could supply those.

[Misplaced]

On 5/10/2016 at 3:48 PM, Alapaki said:

I'm embarrassed to admit that the whole Arya scene was disorienting to me with all of the interspersed short flashbacks.

[snip]

But, otherwise, either I was zoning out (a definite possibility) or I failed to see the reason for Arya to be answering questions about her background in one scene only to revert the "a girl has no name" routine with Jaquen before being given her eyes back.

 

Didn't all this happen in the book?  The Waif knows when Arya's not telling the "truth" (thus the *thwack* when Arya says she has four brothers).  She can't get her eyesight back until she lets go of everything she was, which would include endless repetition of her history to the Waif -- as I recall (it has been a long time) Arya starts lying to her (or the Faceless Man) at some point and isn't thwacked, meaning she is almost No One.  I guess the point is that No One is able to tell lies (or someone else's' history) with the same level of emotion as truth (or The Girl With No Name's history). 

Re the succession debate upthread:  GRRM is writing the Westeros version of the War of the Roses, so on the assumption he's following the property and succession rules of Medieval, Rhaegar's unborn son succeeds on the death of the Mad King prior to Rhaegar's younger brother.  (For grandson succeeding king, see Richard II succeeding Edward III...and under English property and succession law, a fetus in the womb counts as a "life in being"; the minute Lyanna got pregnant, the forthcoming kid was considered alive and running around.)  It is a wholly different question whether Viserys' supporters would allow Rhaegar's yet-unborn child to take the Throne -- very possibly not, and of such are civil wars born.  Locally, of course, Robert Baratheon had just declared himself King, and Ned was fresh from the Trident...both facts that might suggest to Dayne that Ned would not allow the Just Being Born Jon to live, even if he was Lyanna's son.  Ned just fought a war to get rid of the Targs:  he wouldn't seem likely to suddenly support one.   So I can see why Dayne was not about to let him near his sister.  

[Hecate7]

On 10/05/2016 at 4:30 AM, Pogojoco said:

"4 brothers" indicates her Arya feelings. She says she has four because she has four in her heart. The actual fact, not taking into account how she was raised, how she feels towards Jon,  is three full brothers and one half. 

Moreover,

Spoiler

Jon isn't her half brother at all, but rather her cousin.

I wonder if they know that, and if so, how they know it.

Edited January 16, 2017 by SilverStormm
Tagged spoilery info from a later episode.

[John Potts]

Davos - EVERYONE should have a No. 2 like you!
"I failed." "Good! Now go out there and fail again!"

Love that Gilly was a good sailor (unlike in the book, IIRC). And good on you for calling Sam on lying about staying together.

"Why did you do that?" Bran. "Spoilers!" BloodRaven. OK, that wasn't quite what he said, but he might as well have.

Love seeing Varys being competent.

On ‎09‎/‎05‎/‎2016 at 4:55 AM, Knuckles said:

Umber refusing any sign of submission to Ramsay will be remembered by the evil one, even with the gift of Osha and Rickon. Do I think it's a set up? No, the North in the D&D version now seems hopelessly fractured, with every house for itself.

So the Umbers are on Ramsay's side because they're pissed about the Wildlings, while the Karstarks are pissed about Robb executing his dad. OK, that makes some sense, even if it's a little disappointing. Though if the Umbers were to turn on Ramsay, that would be a very "North Remembers" way to do it, as he wouldn't be breaking his word.

So the Tower of Joy was 5 v 2 instead of 7 v 3? Didn't mind it was won "dishonourably", it was a fight to the death

Not that I care one way or the other, but was that Kit's butt?

On ‎09‎/‎05‎/‎2016 at 3:04 AM, mac123x said:

Tyrion's dialog with Missandei and Grey Worm was painfully bad.

It also made Tyrion look stupid. What exactly did you think the Master was doing with his female slaves?

On ‎09‎/‎05‎/‎2016 at 8:24 AM, mrspidey said:

I think you forgot a few. I counted six stabs, not four. Don't tell me the other two were the ones who randomly got killed by Tormund and Wun Wun last week.

I was going, "So, we're to believe that the only two casualties of the Wildlings were two of Jon's assassins? That's lucky!"

As for where Jon (Jaherys?) Targaryen might fall in the order of succession, the only case I can think of where an unborn heir inherited ahead of a living one was Shapur II. And that may well be apocryphal. What the Shapur's example does show is what really
 matters isn't "who has the right" but "who has the support" - which was true then, true in Game of Thrones and true in its inspiration, The Wars of the Roses.

On ‎09‎/‎05‎/‎2016 at 12:34 PM, wallflower75 said:

Does the Night's Watch let him go so easily, even though he's technically correct?  And if so, where does Jon go from here?

Now I'm picturing Law & Order: Westeros. "But my Lord, the Night Watch oath clearly states that members are to serve until death. I have ten witnesses who can swear that my client was dead!"