S02.E13: The Coup

[zxy556575]

12 hours ago, Bastet said:

They've been friends for so long and both place great importance on female friendships, so I'm sure getting to do this show, with each other, is something they really enjoy.  Their comments certainly indicate they do, and this a case where I believe it's 100% genuine, regardless of needing to promote the show.

Unlike their characters, they share the same political and social beliefs IRL so I like to imagine them laughing and hanging out and mocking Trump.  ;)

[Calamity Jane]

Echoing those who want Season 3 NOW!  I binged through this season in two days, at times laughing so hard I cried.  I've loved Lily and Jane together since "9 to 5," and their relationship on this show is just pure gold.  

I thought sure the twins would arrive in the middle of Bud's party, but I guess that's for next season.  I'm going to miss all the characters and their stories!

[txhorns79]

Quote

I remember in the movie "Field Of Dreams" when Kevin Costner went back to 1972 to find Doc 'Moonlight' Graham, Burt Lancaster's character in the movie.  Costner was trying to convince Doc Graham to come back with him to Iowa, and all Doc Graham wanted to talk about was his passion for medicine, caring for his patients and his love for his wife Alisha.  I remember how he specifically talked about his wife's fondness for blue hats and how every time he saw a blue hat, he always bought one for Alisha.  Later, as Costner and James Earl Jones were listening to the local residents share stories about Doc Graham, (who had since passed away), one of the residents told them that when they cleaned out Doc Graham's office after he'd passed, they found dozens of blue hats that he had never got around to giving to Alisha.  I remember that being a lump-in-the-throat moment for me,... touching and sweet. 

Anyway,  I'm mentioning this because that's what first came to mind for me when Grace found all that jewelry that Robert had bought for her.  I can't help but wonder that if Robert had died before Grace found out about him and Sol, would she have felt the same about the jewelry?  And so I guess the moral of the story is that it depends on how you look at things.  Some people saw that jewelry moment just like Grace did:  cold and uncaring.  Others (read: me) thought it was kind of sweet.

I think for me, the difference would be that in Field of Dreams, he was buying her the hats out of love, and not to "solve" a problem.  With Robert, he was basically buying gifts to preemptively deal with Grace's moods and/or issues.  It felt more like Robert saying: "I don't care enough to be bothered when you actually have a problem, so here is something I bought in anticipation of you being upset over something." 

[AuntieMame]

6 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I think for me, the difference would be that in Field of Dreams, he was buying her the hats out of love, and not to "solve" a problem.  With Robert, he was basically buying gifts to preemptively deal with Grace's moods and/or issues.  It felt more like Robert saying: "I don't care enough to be bothered when you actually have a problem, so here is something I bought in anticipation of you being upset over something." 

Exactly how I read it. That Grace was something to be dealt with, not a person, not a wife for whom he cared and cared about why she might be upset. I know marriage can sometimes feel like a battlefield, but it is possible to step back and remember that we care about this person. 

[Bastet]

Yeah, it felt akin to a business stocking up on "free gifts" in anticipation of having to appease irritated customers, not a husband advance purchasing gifts for his wife.  He wasn't coming across something he knew she'd like and saving it for the next birthday or "just because" surprise.  He was buying in bulk (nice bulk, but bulk) to have a supply on hand for whenever he wanted to soothe her ruffled feathers -- as a means to avoid engaging with her as to why she was upset.

Edited June 21, 2016 by Bastet

[hnygrl]

What really upset me about this scene is the sad sorry fact that nobody in that family - in either family really - GOT why Grace was so upset. They just thought "there goes Grace/Mom, complaining to complain. As per usual."

The more I see this one, the more I HATE those kids! They're just awful. They LAUGH at their moms' issues and idiosyncrasies while praising the dads' even going as far as to HELP the dads adjust to the way things are now. But mom? Eh...she's nuts. She's a cold, unfeeling bitch. Ugh. Notice where they had the party? They had the chance to have a kick-ass birthday party for Bud AT THE BEACH, in a lavishly wonderful multi-million dollar ON THE BEACH beach house and they chose....the dads' house????? What does that tell you?

Grace was so hurt. So obviously devastated. As was Frankie when she found out about the painting, and nobody, not. one. kid. God WHY they were so hurt or even attempted to see things from their side. At the end when Grace & Frankie walked out and you see the family standing there? They're all thinking the same thing and it really makes me mad: "Okay, what just happened here?"

None of them get it. they're so used to the moms being WRONG (they used to LAUGH AT GRACE for being hyper vigilant at the beach). Damn. I hope in season 3, the ladies come into their own. I wanna see Grace happy. And I wanna see the kids give them the honor and respect they deserve.

Edited June 21, 2016 by hnygrl

[Serendi]

I thought the kids' reactions were more "Ew, Mom/Grace is talking about masturbating, and from the wrist bandage she's been doing a LOT of it! Too much information!" Then again, I might be reading things into it....

[Nanrad]

On May 30, 2016 at 11:03 AM, wings707 said:

 I think Sol truly loved Frankie and still does.  I see Robert being in a marriage of convenience.  She looked good on his arm for business.  We saw that aspect when he admitted to Sol that she knew how to enter a room.  She was a cold and calculating woman who did not offer him a lot of warmth and that suited him very well.  When he asked her if she had been happy it seemed he expected her to say no, because he wasn't.  

Robert saw what Grace had to offer as his beard, but he didn't see what she had to offer as a person. Although he wasn't interested in her romantically, there was a lot of dehumanization going on that he still hasn't taken credit for. Despite grace's flaws, we see that she did and still does care for him deep down. 

On May 30, 2016 at 11:31 AM, J.D. said:

Yes, that.  Plus, I think people are being a little too hard on Robert for his lack of emotional commitment to Grace considering how uptight and closed off she is emotionally. I don't read her as a loving and giving wife.  I read her as a type "A" personality, the kind who lives by schedules, and that her business came first when she was in charge of the cosmetic company. Only now do we start to see Grace 'warming up' to feelings and that which is more important than one's career.  For example, like the epiphany she had when she realized that the ottoman being placed where it was placed wasn't "all wrong," as she had put it...but rather it was perfect for two people who wanted to sit next to one another, resting their feet while they talked about their day's events.

Any spouse, gay or straight, is going to consider looking elsewhere after years of disconnect.  Again, I'm not condoning the affair because I think Robert should have ended the marriage and moved on if he was that unhappy.   Nothing was going to make him 'straight,' so why prolong the inevitable?  That only intensifies the pain.

That's no excuse. IMO, whatever uptightness and closed off-ness was further cultivated due to Robert treated her like arm candy and not like a person. We saw how Grace was around the contractor guy and the fact that it even escalated to them almost sleeping together while they were married should say "there's some warmth to Grace." Grace is uptight and closed off part because she felt she had to be that way and perhaps even her adolescence, but the other part was very much Robert keeping her at arms length. Grace is capable of passion, but IMO, when your husband keeps putting you at arms length emotionally, you stop investing emotionally as well. She is part at fault for the state of the marriage aka not questioning why it was like that and maybe even for staying, but she may have also believed that that's just who they were.

Furthermore, even if Grace wasn't uptight (let's keep in mind that he chose her for the very reasons people claim he left her), it's moot. He's gay, gay, gay, gay, gay. And even though Sol loved and loves Frankie, it didn't stop him from cheating and leaving. Robert didn't leave due to disconnect, but it makes it easier to claim to explain his behavior (that's a general not accusatory statement). Also, Robert stayed first due to image, and then because Sol drug his feet about leaving Frankie. He may have never left if he'd never fell in love with Sol.

Edited June 21, 2016 by Nanrad
correct spelling, modifying sentences

[paramitch]

A terrific end to a great season. I find this show uneven on occasion, but I so enjoy it, and I'm so happy for its existence, that it pays attention to these two women in their 70s and cares enough to address their growth, their sexuality, their wishes and fears. And without making a joke of them.

I thought one of the most upsetting moments I can remember seeing on this show was the casual, careless cruelty when Mallory told Grace that she'd asked Robert's advice about whether her husband was cheating instead, as it was better to get help from the perpetrator "than from the dupe." I actually gasped. And I thought Fonda acted the moment brilliantly; she looked like she'd been slapped.

I've liked Mallory okay previously (and had gotten a kick last episode about "this fucking guy"), but that was cold.

On 5/30/2016 at 9:03 AM, wings707 said:

 I think Sol truly loved Frankie and still does.  I see Robert being in a marriage of convenience.  She looked good on his arm for business.  We saw that aspect when he admitted to Sol that she knew how to enter a room.  She was a cold and calculating woman who did not offer him a lot of warmth and that suited him very well.  When he asked her if she had been happy it seemed he expected her to say no, because he wasn't.  

I think the disparity between Sol and Robert and their respective feelings for Frankie and Grace lies at the core in the differences between the two men. Of course Sol loves Frankie, although I do not agree that it was necessarily romantic. Sol loves all sorts of people and has kind of based his entire self-image around being a lovable schmo. Whereas Robert I think doesn't always understand his own feelings, and, I feel, felt similarly toward Grace -- he cared for her in his way, he looked on her as necessary for his definition of success, and probably didn't question it beyond that.

The irony is that while I like Sol better as a person, his love is cheap, whereas Robert's love, when he gives it, is probably worth more.

However, I do not agree that Grace is cold or calculating, at all. Grace masked her emotions because she had learned that this was both, I think, Robert's preference and the way to a smooth household. It was also a necessary aspect of Robert's social circle and the high society in which Grace found herself (and as she's implied, she was from humble beginnings, so she was to some degree playing a role).

I do think reserve can become a habit. I also think Grace was a product of her time, and in fact rather naively assumed that her marriage was at least to some degree successful and loving. When Robert did not give her affection, but gave her gifts, she was pathetically happy to receive those as indications of his feelings. Only here was she rightfully devastated to discover that the table scraps of Robert's love, that she had been so grateful for, had meant less than nothing to him.

Which is also why Grace is so warm and vulnerable now -- her facade is melting, and she is finally allowed and able to be herself, to feel things deeply (and to allow herself to do so). And the last big hurdle -- expressing her very real rage and anger -- has been simmering since the very first episode this season, so I thought it was great writing to have her finally explode here. And I cheered for her.

On 5/30/2016 at 10:02 AM, Julia said:

I think it's a hell of a stretch to look at a woman who spent forty years being Perfect for a man who didn't love her or offer her any emotional support, and who mocked her to their closest friends, and assume she started the marriage as cold as she is now.

This is what I think is so sad. The first season, I kind of thought Grace might be relieved that the state of her marriage was (yay!) not her fault, but due to an outside factor entirely -- Robert's sexuality. 

But I think in a way it's worse for her now. She is just realizing the degree of Robert's betrayal, just as Frankie is just now realizing how extensive Sol's lies were to her, as well.

I can't imagine devoting 40+ years of my life to a man only to find that his housekeeper had more compassion and regard for me than he did. 

On 5/30/2016 at 10:18 AM, J.D. said:

You talk as if Grace has no culpability.  Somewhere during that forty year span she had to have seen there's something wrong.  Why stay?

Because, I feel, Grace was a product of her time. Staying was what a woman did, especially 40, 30, even 20 years ago. And she -- it's very clear now -- was not even aware of how bad things actually were. Robert had fooled her well enough that she thought things were okay. Not delirious, not romantic, but she had stability, wealth, her own power through her business, and (she assumed) the love and at least distant affection of Robert. Only, it turned out, not so much.

On 5/30/2016 at 11:36 AM, J.D. said:

So why stay -- for FORTY years no less -- if her marriage was such a sham?  I can understand a marriage hitting a snag and wanting to tough it out for a while if both parties are willing to work on things, get counseling,...etc.

But again, I think this is a fairly modern approach. Grace and Robert encased themselves in a cocoon of a specific kind of life and social circle. I don't think Grace realized the degree of the shame of their marriage in fact until THIS very episode.

In fact, the irony is that if their marriage had been worse, more obviously loveless, then I'm sure Grace would have in fact ended the marriage. But instead she's been in a situation in which she knew something was off, but as a brittle, insecure woman, was hesitant to name it or to rock the boat. 

As a reminder, Grace has so conditioned herself against hope, or yearning, that she was unable to even express a WISH to Frankie! It took everything for her to express a simple, small wish recently.

I think Grace is deeply insecure at heart, and what kind of breaks my heart is how touchingly, visibly grateful she is for affection from others. She has been starved for warmth and not even known it.

I find it interesting that Grace seems to get so little sympathy even from her kids (and mind you, I do actually like the kids, even Brianna).

On 5/30/2016 at 0:29 PM, possibilities said:

Both Grace and Frankie have been EXTREMELY civil, understanding, and even supportive of their exes, while Robert in particular has made little to no effort and has in fact been quite demanding and callous towards both Grace and Frankie, even pressuring Sol to try to have a more adversarial divorce with Frankie instead of working towards an amicable settlement (I'm talking about cutting off the credit cards to leverage a "better deal"). I don't know how many of us would be as friendly with our exes after that, as these two are. And that doesn't even count attending their wedding to each other, let alone helping to organize it on short notice.

I agree with your wonderful post. I also found myself wondering this season, as the show continued to focus on Sol and Robert, if it wasn't a mistake on the part of the show writers to have Robert and Sol go so scorched-earth against poor Frankie and Grace in Season 1. I mean, the women absolutely did NOT deserve that, it was indescribably shitty, and the women are certainly kinder to the two men given that than I think I would be.

On 5/30/2016 at 0:31 PM, JBC344 said:

As far as Phil, Grace made it a point to tell Frankie that she never slept with Phil 15 years ago.  That was a line that she drew in the sand.  Now if she had run off with him back then she of course would of, but my point is that she was torn enough about Robert and her marriage to not go there originally.  It sounds like her and Phil got caught up in the "secret dates" and she may have fell in love with him, but I think at the end of the day she took her vows seriously.

As another poster mentioned as deceitful as Robert has been in their marriage, at some point you have to take control of your own life and happiness.  It seems to me as much as Grace may have loved Phil she wasn't entirely ready to give up on Robert. 

I think the core difference between Grace and Frankie is that Frankie comes from a culture of "Follow your bliss," that encourages the pursuit of happiness as something allowable and healthy. While, for Grace, she was encased in a culture that valued the group over the individual, the husband over the wife, and encouraged a certain facade over personal satisfaction (seen almost as something selfish or sinful).

On 5/30/2016 at 1:00 PM, AuntieMame said:

Though small knipick, shouldn't cosmetic tycoon Grace have her own credit? This plot point makes more sense for Frankie who was in a more traditional position financially. It would have been interesting if Grace had to loan Frankie credit and money during the transition. Boy, if I were Bud, I would have been kicking ass and taking names when the guys pulled this. It was insult to injury and unconscionable.

Agreed -- I do think the first few episodes of S1 set precedents that don't really work given what we see today in the relationships between Grace and Robert, or given what we know of Grace as a successful businesswoman. There's no way she wouldn't have had her own funds, her own credit, etc.

Last but not least --I have to add that I laughed at Brianna promptly grabbing that box. But honestly, I would have too. I mean, it's a box of TREASURES and nobody seemed to care (and Grace was far more upset about the emotional connotations). Brianna's action just reminded me of my late Mom, who was a magpie. She was never rich, but that woman loved jewelry and sparkles, and she'd have been all over that box like flies on sugar. So it made me laugh. Besides, I actually think Brianna would also be generous and level-headed enough to hold onto the items and to even ask her Mom later on (when less emotion was involved) if she still wanted any of them.

I was so happy that this episode ended with a righteous, joyful, bellyful of rage -- and an open expression of the anger Sol and Robert have so richly deserved from Grace and Frankie for so long now. I'm looking forward to next season.

[Clanstarling]

6 hours ago, paramitch said:

I thought one of the most upsetting moments I can remember seeing on this show was the casual, careless cruelty when Mallory told Grace that she'd asked Robert's advice about whether her husband was cheating instead, as it was better to get help from the perpetrator "than from the dupe." I actually gasped. And I thought Fonda acted the moment brilliantly; she looked like she'd been slapped.

I've liked Mallory okay previously (and had gotten a kick last episode about "this fucking guy"), but that was cold.

I never cared for Mallory (I'd not sure why), but I always pegged her as pretty cold. Again, I'm not sure why. So for me, that moment confirmed it. She's her father's daughter for sure.

Loved your entire post, but any other responses would be "I agree!"

[JBC344]

I like Mallory the least of the kids, which is still fine enough, but in defense of her it seems like Grace and Robert weren't the most "loving" parents.  I love Grace but her "calling" Mallory cold is sort of the pot calling the kettle black. 

[possibilities]

It occurs to me just now, that back when got married, it was unusual for a woman to be "allowed" to have a career, and Grace may have interpreted Robert's lack of objection to it as a sign of respect and support, when in reality it may have been a sign of his indifference. He didn't care what she did, as long as she kept out of his way. If you didn't live through those times, it's very hard to convey just how extreme the curbing of women's lives truly was. Women were not ALLOWED to have credit -- not that long ago, really-- if you were married, even a credit card was in your husband's name. Grace may have genuinely felt that Robert's "support" of her independence was a very progressive, loving statement of him believing in her when that was extremely rare and in some cases considered shocking. Meanwhile, it was that he wasn't even paying attention, didn't give a damn what she did with her time, and was just relieved she had something to distract her, so he was free to live a double life and not be noticed. It made him look good to her, but his motives were not what they seemed. I think this also contributed to Grace's ability to believe they had an OK marriage, and ironically could make it harder to leave even though she was unhappy-- she thought it would be ungrateful and disloyal to leave him after "he is so respectful and has been so extraordinarily supportive," rather than making her MORE able to leave because she was less dependent.

[Wings]

19 minutes ago, possibilities said:

It occurs to me just now, that back when got married, it was unusual for a woman to be "allowed" to have a career, and Grace may have interpreted Robert's lack of objection to it as a sign of respect and support, when in reality it may have been a sign of his indifference. He didn't care what she did, as long as she kept out of his way. If you didn't live through those times, it's very hard to convey just how extreme the curbing of women's lives truly was. Women were not ALLOWED to have credit -- not that long ago, really-- if you were married, even a credit card was in your husband's name. Grace may have genuinely felt that Robert's "support" of her independence was a very progressive, loving statement of him believing in her when that was extremely rare and in some cases considered shocking. Meanwhile, it was that he wasn't even paying attention, didn't give a damn what she did with her time, and was just relieved she had something to distract her, so he was free to live a double life and not be noticed. It made him look good to her, but his motives were not what they seemed. I think this also contributed to Grace's ability to believe they had an OK marriage, and ironically could make it harder to leave even though she was unhappy-- she thought it would be ungrateful and disloyal to leave him after "he is so respectful and has been so extraordinarily supportive," rather than making her MORE able to leave because she was less dependent.

Your timeline is way out of wack.  I am in that generation and women had careers (I did) and were valued for it!  We are talking 60's/70s not the 1940s!  I also had a credit card in my name when I was single and married.  Gloria reined supreme in the 70s.  

Edited September 2, 2016 by wings707

[possibilities]

I was talking about the 1970s. Your experience is more the exception than the rule.

Edited September 2, 2016 by possibilities

[paramitch]

Clanstarling, thanks so much!

I don't dislike Mallory, exactly, but I do think she's actually a colder character than Brianna. It's kind of interesting because she's so visibly maternal while Bri is the driven businessperson.

On 9/2/2016 at 8:49 AM, JBC344 said:

I like Mallory the least of the kids, which is still fine enough, but in defense of her it seems like Grace and Robert weren't the most "loving" parents.  I love Grace but her "calling" Mallory cold is sort of the pot calling the kettle black. 

I don't agree. While Grace could have been warmer and more emotional with the kids and Robert, I also think she learned to maintain a reserve set by Robert, which is a shame. Her choices were certainly her choices, but I just think she is a great example of someone shaped by their environment.

Grace is certainly frequently described as cold, but I just have never seen it. Instead, she just seems like a woman who learned to respond to life in a reserved and guarded way. I think Grace has the capacity to be tremendously warm and loving, but she has hidden her emotions for so long, it's been fun to watch her break through over the past year or two, because the more she has revealed herself, the more of a warm and vulnerable and loving person she's shown to be. 

What's sad is that Robert didn't know how to express love, and Grace was too timid to do so beyond maintaining a certain distance. But better late than never -- now she is able to be her real self, to show love and emotion and anger, and it's fascinating.

On 9/2/2016 at 9:37 AM, possibilities said:

It occurs to me just now, that back when got married, it was unusual for a woman to be "allowed" to have a career, and Grace may have interpreted Robert's lack of objection to it as a sign of respect and support, when in reality it may have been a sign of his indifference. 

Possibilities, great, great post on Grace, her career, and how she interpreted Robert's gestures toward her. I think it's deliberate and really ironic that Grace interpreted so many of Robert's acts of dismissal and indifference as acts of love. The sad thing is, I agree that they're why she stayed -- again, if she'd had a visibly worse marriage, she could have (would have) left.

So to realize the true depths of Robert's indifference is very sad, I think. The revelations this episode were huge and tragic for Grace because they revealed that even the stuff she rationalized about her marriage ("it wasn't so bad, we had some good moments," etc.) were not true.

I get madder and madder at Robert, the more I think about Grace. And it's interesting because Robert was certainly not deliberately cruel and I don't think he's a bad guy. But he did so much damage and I think his marriage to Grace was marked constantly by choices that could only be seen as selfish.

On 9/2/2016 at 9:50 AM, wings707 said:

Your timeline is way out of wack.  I am in that generation and women had careers (I did) and were valued for it!  We are talking 60's/70s not the 1940s!  I also had a credit card in my name when I was single and married.  Gloria reined supreme in the 70s.  

I think, however, that this wasn't universal. Even with the rise of Steinem during the 70s, there were plenty of women who watched all of this but who were passed by, who didn't see themselves in feminism or how to take action. Especially if they were in comfortable circumstances and actively lying to themselves.

It's interesting that Grace and Frankie's very safety and affluence may have contributed to their lack of action or growth on their own behalfs. They never had to struggle to survive, so they also didn't necessarily grow as much as they might have, or learn their own abilities and strengths. It's rather touching however to see them do so now, and I like that the show treats them with so much respect.

Grace and Frankie may be women in their 70s but their dreams, goals, and revelations are treated as seriously by the show as if they were single women in their 30s -- I love that. Their ages are immaterial; they are attractive, smart, funny, and strong. It's just so refreshing.

[J.D.]

On 9/2/2016 at 0:37 PM, possibilities said:

It occurs to me just now, that back when got married, it was unusual for a woman to be "allowed" to have a career, and Grace may have interpreted Robert's lack of objection to it as a sign of respect and support, when in reality it may have been a sign of his indifference. He didn't care what she did, as long as she kept out of his way. If you didn't live through those times, it's very hard to convey just how extreme the curbing of women's lives truly was. Women were not ALLOWED to have credit -- not that long ago, really-- if you were married, even a credit card was in your husband's name. Grace may have genuinely felt that Robert's "support" of her independence was a very progressive, loving statement of him believing in her when that was extremely rare and in some cases considered shocking. Meanwhile, it was that he wasn't even paying attention, didn't give a damn what she did with her time, and was just relieved she had something to distract her, so he was free to live a double life and not be noticed. It made him look good to her, but his motives were not what they seemed. I think this also contributed to Grace's ability to believe they had an OK marriage, and ironically could make it harder to leave even though she was unhappy-- she thought it would be ungrateful and disloyal to leave him after "he is so respectful and has been so extraordinarily supportive," rather than making her MORE able to leave because she was less dependent.

Back then it was even MORE unusual for 2 gay men to openly have a relationship.  That was virtually unheard of.  I'm not condoning the affair, but I do have empathy for Robert and Sol's situation.  

Also, ... when did they show that Robert didn't care what Grace did and long as she kept out of his way, or that he didn't give a damn...etc.?

[JBC344]

9 hours ago, paramitch said:

Clanstarling, thanks so much!

I don't dislike Mallory, exactly, but I do think she's actually a colder character than Brianna. It's kind of interesting because she's so visibly maternal while Bri is the driven businessperson.

I don't agree. While Grace could have been warmer and more emotional with the kids and Robert, I also think she learned to maintain a reserve set by Robert, which is a shame. Her choices were certainly her choices, but I just think she is a great example of someone shaped by their environment.

Grace is certainly frequently described as cold, but I just have never seen it. Instead, she just seems like a woman who learned to respond to life in a reserved and guarded way. I think Grace has the capacity to be tremendously warm and loving, but she has hidden her emotions for so long, it's been fun to watch her break through over the past year or two, because the more she has revealed herself, the more of a warm and vulnerable and loving person she's shown to be. 

What's sad is that Robert didn't know how to express love, and Grace was too timid to do so beyond maintaining a certain distance. But better late than never -- now she is able to be her real self, to show love and emotion and anger, and it's fascinating.

Possibilities, great, great post on Grace, her career, and how she interpreted Robert's gestures toward her. I think it's deliberate and really ironic that Grace interpreted so many of Robert's acts of dismissal and indifference as acts of love. The sad thing is, I agree that they're why she stayed -- again, if she'd had a visibly worse marriage, she could have (would have) left.

So to realize the true depths of Robert's indifference is very sad, I think. The revelations this episode were huge and tragic for Grace because they revealed that even the stuff she rationalized about her marriage ("it wasn't so bad, we had some good moments," etc.) were not true.

I get madder and madder at Robert, the more I think about Grace. And it's interesting because Robert was certainly not deliberately cruel and I don't think he's a bad guy. But he did so much damage and I think his marriage to Grace was marked constantly by choices that could only be seen as selfish.

I think, however, that this wasn't universal. Even with the rise of Steinem during the 70s, there were plenty of women who watched all of this but who were passed by, who didn't see themselves in feminism or how to take action. Especially if they were in comfortable circumstances and actively lying to themselves.

It's interesting that Grace and Frankie's very safety and affluence may have contributed to their lack of action or growth on their own behalfs. They never had to struggle to survive, so they also didn't necessarily grow as much as they might have, or learn their own abilities and strengths. It's rather touching however to see them do so now, and I like that the show treats them with so much respect.

Grace and Frankie may be women in their 70s but their dreams, goals, and revelations are treated as seriously by the show as if they were single women in their 30s -- I love that. Their ages are immaterial; they are attractive, smart, funny, and strong. It's just so refreshing.

I don't understand.  We the audience don't have to have evidence of Grace being a "cold" parent.  Grace herself has admitted to it this past season.  Her and Mallory really had that heart to heart talk when Mallory was bed ridden and Grace was feeling left out and in competition with the other grandmother. 

Now I find Grace to be the most fascinating character on the show but the woman has her own faults that have nothing to do with Robert.  Also Robert being wrong doesn't make Grace right.  The Grace that we are experiencing on the show is a woman who is going through an "awakening" of sorts so basing her past on who she is now is not a great representation.  Personally I like that Grace has really began to examine her life and realize the things that both she and Robert did wrong and change what she herself has control over.

[wendyg]

possibilities: I would agree that your timeline is a little out of whack (for two women of Grace's age who had careers at that time you need look no further than Fonda and Tomlin themselves). By the 1970s, the options for women were growing fast.

That said, I always assumed that Grace didn't start her business until her kids were older, somtime in the 1980s, say, when there were plenty of women doing such things. And despite what I said above, I'd agree that someone like Robert would be much more likely to want a wife who was always available to do business dinners and so on. But those aren't really incompatible.

[Clanstarling]

To be fair, actresses aren't good measures of whether or not women had power and opportunity - there've been film actresses with major careers since the advent of film.

As with most things, our perceptions of an era are very much based on our own experiences. I once knew an elderly woman who hand waved the Great Depression. She had a job the entire time (a career woman in the 30'!), so in her mind, it couldn't have been that bad.

My personal experience, as a young woman starting work in 1980, and as a daughter of a woman more Jane Fonda's age, was much more in line with @possibilities timeline. My father "let" my mother work in the 70's but only when it suited him.  My ex worked at a company in the 70's where the receptionist was expected (!) to entertain the clients by going to dinner with them. Which she did, willingly, she saw it as part of her job rather than the pimping out that it was. In 1980, at my first job in a technical position, I refused to do some guy's typing. I got the stink eye from the other women who also had non-secretarial positions, but would do the typing for the old goats. And all of this was a metropolitan Californian area - known for its forward-thinking.

Edited September 11, 2016 by Clanstarling

[Hecate7]

On 9/2/2016 at 11:50 AM, wings707 said:

Your timeline is way out of wack.  I am in that generation and women had careers (I did) and were valued for it!  We are talking 60's/70s not the 1940s!  I also had a credit card in my name when I was single and married.  Gloria reined supreme in the 70s.  

Gloria was famous, but she did not "reign supreme." There was a lovely wave of feminism, but that's what it was--a wave. People commented and complained about it, made fun of it, and were generally convinced that it was a passing fad. Men were not expected to agree or support it. The average woman had a credit card but it depended on her husband. She also had to bring a note from her husband to get on the pill.

Robert married Grace the way you'd hire an administrative assistant. He planned to treat her well, but he didn't really have any interest in her as a person.

Edited September 19, 2016 by Hecate7

[Wings]

2 hours ago, Hecate7 said:

Gloria was famous, but she did not "reign supreme." There was a lovely wave of feminism, but that's what it was--a wave. People commented and complained about it, made fun of it, and were generally convinced that it was a passing fad. Men were not expected to agree or support it. The average woman had a credit card but it depended on her husband. She also had to bring a note from her husband to get on the pill.

Robert married Grace the way you'd hire an administrative assistant. He planned to treat her well, but he didn't really have any interest in her as a person.

I don't know why I even mentioned Gloria, it was a throw away comment.  I retract it!   

  I never had to bring a note from my husband to get birth control!   My point is I am from that generation and I did not experience what you are saying happened during the 60s/70s.   My husband had nothing to do with me having credit card, I had one before I even met him, and that was in 1965. We met in 1969.  

[Clanstarling]

2 hours ago, wings707 said:

My point is I am from that generation and I did not experience what you are saying happened during the 60s/70s.

You were on the leading edge of change, and a trailblazer. That's wonderful (no sarcasm, truly). Many of the rest of us who were adults during that time experienced that era quite differently.

Edited September 19, 2016 by Clanstarling

[Wings]

8 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

You were on the leading edge of change, and a trailblazer. That's wonderful (no sarcasm, truly). Many of the rest of us who were adults during that time experienced that era quite differently.

Interesting.  My friends, had the same experience as I did, as far as I knew.  We were all on birth control pills, I know that.  I lived in Boston.  The area of the country may have something to do with it.  

[Aja]

I remember an interview with the original cast of SNL--Jane Curtin made remarks about how powerful it was to have women in the position that she, Gilda and Laraine were in, because she couldn't even get a credit card on her own at the time. I thought "Holy WHAT???" But I'll never forget that, because it totally blew my mind. 

[Hecate7]

5 hours ago, wings707 said:

Interesting.  My friends, had the same experience as I did, as far as I knew.  We were all on birth control pills, I know that.  I lived in Boston.  The area of the country may have something to do with it.  

Wings, I was just going to say the same thing! Boston seems to have been more forward-thinking than the rest of the country. Laws do vary from state to state, even more so back then. Being from Kansas I probably saw a much more extreme conservatism at work than might have been observed in most parts of the East Coast. But our TVs told us it was normal and right, and it took a decade of Norman Lear telling us it was idiotic for most of the country to finally agree.

[Wings]

4 hours ago, Aja said:

I remember an interview with the original cast of SNL--Jane Curtin made remarks about how powerful it was to have women in the position that she, Gilda and Laraine were in, because she couldn't even get a credit card on her own at the time. I thought "Holy WHAT???" But I'll never forget that, because it totally blew my mind. 

She probably didn't have a steady income.  They mostly came from Second City improve group in Chicago and lived on ramen, sharing an apartment with how many they could fit!  Doing stand up is a difficult road.  

I had saved like crazy when I was a teen and was able to show that I had money behind me and a well paying job.   That right there is a big difference.   

[Aja]

That might be it. I just remember being totally shocked that she said something like "as a single woman, I couldn't even get a credit card." But maybe it had more to do with her income.  Guess it's a little different today, seeing as how I'm a single woman with ZERO disposable income and credit card companies cannot get enough of me.

Edited September 19, 2016 by Aja

[possibilities]

It was legal until 1974 to refuse to give credit to women. Married women were considered legal property of their husbands. Even if you had your own income or wealth, your credit was legally allowed to be determined by your husband-- and he was often required to co-sign and grant permission, even if the bank was willing. I'm sure there were people who thought and acted differently, but the law is/was the law and common practice was discriminatory. Even after it became illegal, it took time for common practice to shift. We all know discrimination occurs even where it is illegal, and enforcement can be a battle. And besides the legal issue, there is also the issue of whether someone like Grace would be grateful for a husband who went along with rather than opposed her ambitions-- his support could have been interpreted by her as a sign that he was special and loved and respected her, rather than that he was apathetic and relieved to have her occupied and out of his way (which was my original idea when I mentioned the legalities upthread).

http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/07/living/sixties-women-5-things/index.html

https://www.directlendingsolutions.com/women_and_credit.htm

[Hecate7]

23 hours ago, Aja said:

That might be it. I just remember being totally shocked that she said something like "as a single woman, I couldn't even get a credit card." But maybe it had more to do with her income.  Guess it's a little different today, seeing as how I'm a single woman with ZERO disposable income and credit card companies cannot get enough of me.

No, it wasn't about her income, or Jane would have said "as a starving actress," NOT "as a single woman." Just because some girls in Boston managed to get credit doesn't mean that the experiences of millions of women all over the US need to be erased or that history has to be rewritten. It's a very commonly remarked on shared experience of women that age, and as possibilities reminds us, it was the law. Laws vary from state to state, but even in NY, women's adulthood was very restricted compared with what we're used to nowadays.

[mmccpp]

On 9/2/2016 at 0:50 PM, wings707 said:

Your timeline is way out of wack.  I am in that generation and women had careers (I did) and were valued for it!  We are talking 60's/70s not the 1940s!  I also had a credit card in my name when I was single and married.  Gloria reined supreme in the 70s.  

I'm 66, so younger than Grace.  In 1973 I got a job and moved to the big city, and was denied credit in my own name.  I had to get a lawyer (ironically, my father) on the case to break one loose.

[txhorns79]

Quote

I'm 66, so younger than Grace.  In 1973 I got a job and moved to the big city, and was denied credit in my own name.  I had to get a lawyer (ironically, my father) on the case to break one loose.

To give some perspective, Sex & the City did an episode with this storyline in the early 2000s.  In that episode, Miranda, a successful lawyer, was seeking to buy a home on her own, and she was asked a few different times over the course of the episode if her father or a boyfriend would be helping her with the down payment, as though it was incomprehensible that she could afford a place on her own. 

[chitowngirl]

And single women were legally referred to as spinsters on real estate documents!

Topic? It's a long time in between seasons with Netflix shows! 

[Calamity Jane]

A friend bought a house less than two years ago, in northern California, and was amazed that there is still language involved in the purchase about her being a single woman.  Seemed to indicate that it would not be the same language for a single male.  Things change slowwwwwwlyyyyyy.  

[shapeshifter]

My sister has been raving about this show for a couple of years, but in general we don't like the same things, so I resisted checking it out. She is of the income level seen in the show and is married, whereas I pinch pennies and have not been in a relationship for nearly 30 years.
Well, I finally tried the first episode about 10 days ago, and I am now past the middle of season 2, heh.

One problem I have (which may have long since been resolved) is that in a fictional extended family that includes two senior citizen men who have just come out as gay and 6 other adults who are heteronormative, it seems there would be at least one character who we should see expressing discomfort at seeing PDAs by the 2 newly out-of-the-closet men. It could be a gold mine for potential character growth (or not). 

The other problem I have was the big fricken deal made about Sol and Frankie's farewell sex, but I have long since learned that my looser attitude toward fidelity (forged in the fires of the 60s and the 70s) is not shared by my adult kids or my slightly older coworkers, so I'm just glad it's finally been resolved in-show.

Jane Fonda and Lilly Tomlin are inspiring role models for me as I wrap up my current career and prepare for the next act. However, unlike their characters, I will be continuing with celibacy—it's the prowess of their acting I hope to emulate in my own field.