S12.E22: Mama Tried

[DrKarevFan]

I think its interesting that the main reason that Arizona did not want children was because she did not want to feel the pain of possibly loosing a child. Like she lost her brother. She accepted Sophia because of her love for Callie, she accepted Sophia, loved her, adopted her and was fully committed to being a great mom for Sophia. Callie knew all this about Arizona's fears, yet went ahead and selfishly made plans to take Their daughter to New York. Calzona is over, dead and buried.

Parallel Story

Jackson and April and their dinner.

Calmly and civilly they were discussing how to co parent. They were respectful and considerate of each other's wants and the best plan for their child. There is hope for Japril. Their love is still alive....though Reba McEntire's Every Other Weekend was playing in my head.

[Black Knight]

I wanted Arizona to win the case on the merits so badly, but I really thought that what the show was going to do was have her lose, and then have Callie be shamed into being a decent human being. The episode title of "Mama Tried" did make me wonder, since that's how Sofia refers to Callie, and certainly if the title had been "Mommy Tried" I would've been completely convinced that it meant Arizona would lose, but I just really thought that Callie would win. That's because I don't believe Shonda wants there to continue to be as much Callie hate as there currently is, and so to have Callie win and then do the right thing by deciding not to move, not to take Sofia away from Arizona, would have been a way to redeem her character.

But Arizona won. And so the question is, how are they going to redeem Callie now? The theory I'm currently playing with is this: Callie tries to butter up Arizona in the next episode with fake apologies, and Arizona sees right through them. And although she wants to give Callie parenting time with Sofia for Sofia's sake, she's just so afraid that Callie will twist it around and say that Arizona is dumping her kid on Callie so she can work and party, and that Callie will take her back to court and this time they'll have a judge who's not smart enough to see through Callie's bullshit. So Arizona says no for now to significant parenting time. Callie gets desperate and runs away with Sofia, and that's one of the season cliffhangers, Callie on the run with Sofia, Arizona freaking out. In the season premiere Callie comes to her senses and brings Sofia back to Arizona, thus redeeming the character. And either SaRa has decided to stay and so Callie spends next season trying to build credibility with Arizona so they can eventually go back to a joint custody arrangement; or SaRa has decided to leave and so Callie's just there for a couple of episodes to wrap up her storyline, and Callie will move because it's too painful for her to live in the same city as her daughter if she can't have her daughter living with her. (Which is weak motivation-wise, but if SaRa decides to leave, they honestly don't have any really good explanations to use for why Callie would move away from Sofia, and they have to write Callie off somehow. And it leaves the door open for SaRa to return to the show.)

The captions, by the way, had Callie's line as the person "I love and the person I love." Not loved/love. I really don't think there's any reason to take her statement at anything more than face value: Callie wanted to have it all, to have both her girlfriend and her daughter with her. She wasn't talking about Arizona, she doesn't still love Arizona or want to be with her. Callie wanted to have her (presumed) perfect happy ending in NYC with Penny and Sofia. Arizona was just inconvenient.

I figured out just exactly what it is I find so unforgivable about Callie's approach at trial. I realized today that Callie's lawyer was actually building a cohesive narrative with the witnesses, a narrative that was to reach its conclusion when she got to cross-examine Arizona. It wasn't just scattershot criticism of Arizona, blowing holes in her wherever she could. No. She painted Arizona as a bad mother who continually chose to work and party over actually parenting her child...and the culmination of her plan was to be to say that the reason Arizona was a bad mother was because she is only Sofia's adoptive mother and so she didn't really love or parent Sofia the way she should have. Of course it ended up backfiring because Arizona got so mad on the witness stand when she realized where Callie's lawyer was going...but that was the plan. That's what Callie signed off on: "Arizona is a bad mother because she is only an adoptive mother." Of course I knew when I first saw that scene between Arizona and the lawyer that Callie was playing the biological-mother card, but I didn't really understand until today just how she was playing it. It's one thing, gross as it is, to say that Callie loves Sofia more than Arizona does because Callie is the biological mother. That's more elevating Callie than it is tearing Arizona down, like, Arizona loves Sofia, Callie just loves her even more. But it's really horrific to say that Arizona was a bad mother to Sofia because she was only an adoptive parent and so she didn't really care about spending time with her kid. Playing the biological-mother card in that way is so much worse. It's unforgivable. And I just can't see Arizona ever forgiving Callie for it. Arizona made a commitment six years ago - a commitment Callie badly wanted at the time - to be Sofia's third parent, equally with Callie and Mark, and Callie turned that into a dumpster fire and poured gasoline on it, all because Arizona stuck to her commitment: She was a loving mother in that she didn't want her daughter to be across the country from her, and she was a responsible parent in that she didn't think it was good for Sofia to be uprooted from her whole life, so she fought to stop it. That was inconvenient for Callie and her happy NYC ending with Penny and Sofia, so she tried to turn it around and make it out to be the exact opposite.

[Starscream]

I didn't find it all that surprising that Callie's lawyer was more cutthroat than Arizona's.  Callie had the disadvantage going in that she'd have to get the judge to agree that moving Sofia to the other side of the country and basically cutting Arizona out of her life was somehow a reasonable request.  The only way this can possibly be accomplished is by making Arizona look unfit compared to Callie.

[Emily Thrace]

15 hours ago, lorbeer said:

And I don't understand why Alex didn't want to support Arizona on that. Perhaps he knew Mer would be on team Callie and he didn't want to endanger their reliationship ;d...

I think Alex is close enough with Callie that he would be torn on choosing sides there. I mean Arizona is his mentor  if they would were both trapped in a burning building he would probably pick her over Callie. He does have a lot of history with Callie too though especially as it relates to George so I can see him not wanting to tear her apart on the stand. Mostly I think Alex is "Team Sofia because you are both ridiculous" as he explained in the episode.

Something that occurs to me with Callie's tactics backfiring is that the judge may have actually liked that Arizona kept her personal life separate from Sofia. It actually may have underlined how reckless and inconsiderate Callie was being with regards to Penny.

Also the way Owen was describing Callie I was again wondering why the writers never hooked these two up. He was so much more animated than he has ever been with Amelia. Can Amelia just fall off a ferry boat in the finale or step outside and have a helicopter land on her?

[Catznip]

Right on Black Knight... I enjoyed reading your analysis and I agree with you about the tittle, Mama Tried is Callie's attempt to paint Arizona as a bad parent and drag Sofia away from her.  Also you can hear Callie referring to herself as mama when she goes to hug Sof and at the end you hear Sof referring to Arizona as mommy. I heart Callie and Arizona but this OOC storyline for Callie is disengenious to the character I have admired.  Arizona told her she has the biggest heart and that's what she loves about her.  

[dr pepper]

how many episodes left in the season? unless there are drastic changes, i'm out at the end. i know it's a soapy drama, but there's no call to keep torturing characters or making them suddenly awful like this.

[CED9]

35 minutes ago, Catznip said:

Right on Black Knight... I enjoyed reading your analysis and I agree with you about the tittle, Mama Tried is Callie's attempt to paint Arizona as a bad parent and drag Sofia away from her.  Also you can hear Callie referring to herself as mama when she goes to hug Sof and at the end you hear Sof referring to Arizona as mommy. I heart Callie and Arizona but this OOC storyline for Callie is disengenious to the character I have admired.  Arizona told her she has the biggest heart and that's what she loves about her.  

This is what threw me and some of my friends off. In S8, Arizona was referred to as Mama, and Callie as Mommy. So, when we saw the episode, it was like...um...oh.

[Black Knight]

1 hour ago, Starscream said:

I didn't find it all that surprising that Callie's lawyer was more cutthroat than Arizona's.  Callie had the disadvantage going in that she'd have to get the judge to agree that moving Sofia to the other side of the country and basically cutting Arizona out of her life was somehow a reasonable request.  The only way this can possibly be accomplished is by making Arizona look unfit compared to Callie.

That makes sense. The weird thing is that at the beginning of this episode, both lawyers clearly felt Callie had the upper hand. Arizona's lawyer said that Callie and her lawyer were being unreasonable because they could be, because they had the better witness list. She advised Arizona to seriously consider accepting the offer of school breaks and summers (that plural of "summers," by the by, reinforced something that I thought already, that although Penny's grant was only for a year, Callie was operating on the assumption that she and Penny would never move back to Seattle, that the move to NYC would be permanent). Callie's lawyer seemed completely comfortable with going to trial, while Arizona actually had to pull rank on her lawyer.

(Digression: That was my other favorite acting moment of Jessica Capshaw's in this episode. I loved the steely tone and voice she got when she was saying, "I am painfully aware of that. Their offer is insulting. And last time I checked, you work for me." Arizona routinely makes life-and-death decisions involving children as part of her job, so she has to have a certain innate steeliness and decisiveness; it was great to see her bring that to this situation with her personal life.)

The other weird thing is that, even though it makes sense that Callie would need to call Arizona's fitness as a parent into question, Arizona's lawyer didn't seem prepared for it - for some reason she thought Callie had the better case, even without the character assassination. Arizona and her lawyer obviously had agreed that they would not pursue a strategy of trashing Callie, but it still would have made sense to gather the data of the emergency surgeries, texts, etc. to prepare for and be ready to answer Callie's lawyer's attacks. But Arizona's lawyer wasn't prepared and Arizona herself was shocked at how far Callie went. So it just seems like that was never part of the calculus on Arizona's side.

But, all that weirdness aside, Callie needing to attack Arizona's fitness as a parent makes sense. I think where it really backfired is that Callie and her lawyer went too far with it. They ended up painting a distorted picture of Arizona that was just too wildly different from the actual living, breathing woman. When Callie's lawyer finished her worst attack to that point, the slut-shaming of Arizona, that's when Arizona's lawyer became totally confident and told Arizona that all she had to do was tell the truth and she would win. That Judge Kane was smart and would know the truth when she heard it. The lawyer knew that as soon as the judge was able to hear from Arizona directly, it would be obvious that the other side's portrayal of her as an irresponsible, uninvolved, selfish slutty mother was greatly skewed. And that would've made the judge doubt all of the nasty things that Callie's lawyer said. I understand (even though I don't like) the need to attack, but being more restrained, less over the top, would have been wise.

[pennben]

12 hours ago, photo fox said:

I thought that was such a cop-out, when they had her leave, even though the other witnesses stuck around. There's no way Meredith wouldn't be insulted by that, so she conveniently didn't hear it, so she can still be Team Callie. (And knowing Mere, she'll treat Arizona like crap for the next year, just because Callie says so. Maybe Arizona and Riggs can start a club.)

Oh, yeah, they had to get Meredith out of that courtroom before her hearing Callie's case and Arizona's testimony. They had to! And they actually made sure we knew Meredith wasn't there for almost all of the awfulness of it. Otherwise, the courtroom becoming tilted because of weight-bearing issues because everyone other than Penny moved as far to Arizona's side as possible would have given the outcome up.

I really do hope they deal with the fallout at the hospital because of everyone's involvement... there should be a lot, and it could be fascinating.  And, yes, you are probably right that Meredith will be wrong-footed on this initially and hopefully Alex or someone else can set her straight on what nonsense is to come from her initially.

Edited May 8, 2016 by pennben

[Deanie87]

Maybe its just me, but I don't think that this recent string of events is totally out of character for Callie.  She always jumps into some situation with both feet and then is completely shocked when there are negative consequences.  I think she sometimes browbeats people to get what she wants and if things don't go her way, she whines and then removes herself completely from any blame and becomes the victim.  She did it with George, she did it with Hahn, she has done it numerous times with Arizona and she did it with the plane crash stuff.  I don't think that any of it is malicious on her part, she does have a huge heart and just wants to be happy, nor am I minimizing the fact that she has been treated badly by various people.  But she doesn't think before she acts and when things blow up in her wake, she is constantly bewildered at how she got there and seems to have absolutely no self-awareness as the part she may have played.   So while the stuff with Penny and Sofia is on a much larger scale as things involving children always are, I don't think that this is some kind of Callie that we have never seen before.  Its just that this time there she doesn't have anything to play the victim about.

[timimouse]

On 5/6/2016 at 0:12 AM, Starscream said:

All I could think was that all this stupid hullabaloo was over Penny.  Penny. 

It was pretty obvious from the start that things were going to go Arizona's way, but I still didn't really believe it until Meredith said "spoiler alert."  Arizona has been portrayed as the wronged party from the start of this dumb storyline, so it's not like this outcome wasn't telegraphed.  I agree though that Callie winning would have made sense in order to make everything dramatic as possible.  Maybe she would have if Capshaw wasn't about ready to pop.  I imagine it was a bit easier to use Ramirez for big scenes when doing these last few episodes.

Most of the courtroom stuff just made me roll my eyes.  Owen was laying it on so thick that it made me want to barf.  Meredith was condescending as hell until the lawyer turned the tables on her.  Bailey came off like a pamphlet from a Sheryl Sandberg lecture.  Penny was Penny.  Callie's waterworks felt more rehearsed than sincere.  Arizona getting to defend herself so freely and make a speech about what was truly important at that moment made it clear that the deck was stacked.

I hope this show never does a courtroom episode ever again.

Agreed. The courtroom scenes really annoyed me. I've never been to court so I could be wrong but are witnesses allowed to be so talkative on the stand? I used to get the impression that you were asked a question and you answer it. Done. Callie's witnesses seemed to be gushing on and on and on about how wonderful she is and I found myself rolling my eyes every time. I also felt that Penny's testimony felt rehearsed and Callie's reaction to her "Sophia's favourite things" was a sigh of relief as if she was saying "Good girl Penny, just as we practised!" Oh please. And it still really bugged me that Meredith was so much on Callie's side. I didn't understand why she agreed to testify on Callie's behalf so quickly. All of them actually because there are very few doctors in that hospital that I would say is closer to one than the other (except Richard with Arizona) but Meredith especially because I remember in the days of George, she DID NOT like Callie AT ALL. Can somebody tell me when that changed? I know they became civil and maybe even friendly at one point but to the extent that she thinks Callie should take Sophia from Arizona? The Arizona that was in a plane crash with Meredith? She expects Arizona to fly across the country regular after having been in said plane crash and Mer herself can hardly fly now? Oh and Meredith is now drinking tequila in bed with Callie because they're oh so close? **Rolls Eyes** Whatever....

On 5/6/2016 at 4:10 PM, GreysFan89 said:

The more I see this post, the more pissed I get. It is pretty much saying "yeah they are both equal parents BUT some parents are more equal than others."

LOVE the animal farm reference! Haha!

Also, I'm not sure why there was so much debate as to whether or not Arizona had adopted Sofia. I remember the episode after the accident and Sofia was born that Arizona told Callie that she wanted legal rights. It was after her and Mark were arguing about the best treatment for the baby and he screamed at her something about her not even being a parent and telling her that she was nothing. Callie agreed with her that they would make it happen. I just don't expect us to see everything on screen. Like I think Meredith and Derek eventually did get legally married but we only ever saw the post-it (I think). Anyway, at least now we know there was a legal adoption. Meaning equal rights.

I too wasn't surprised that Arizona won. They tried WAY too hard to make us think it was going to go in Callie's favour. Her hugging Sofia and everything being all good with them and then Arizona dropping her off the next day and Sofia telling her she hated her. All of Arizona's witness' testimony seemingly make her look bad but Callie's building her up. It was too obvious of a fake-out.

I too am of the belief that the teenage mother tried to hurt herself. But that story is boring me. Not sure why. I'm hoping we don't see them again.

Finally, I see some posters saying that Callie showed no remorse but during the scene with her an Meredith drinking on the bed, didn't she say that she lay awake every night wondering if she was doing the right thing? Is that not her questioning her decision to go down this road?

[Black Knight]

3 hours ago, pennben said:

Oh, yeah, they had to get Meredith out of that courtroom before her hearing Callie's case and Arizona's testimony. They had to! And they actually made sure we knew Meredith wasn't there for almost all of the awfulness of it. Otherwise, the courtroom becoming tilted because of weight-bearing issues because everyone other than Penny moved as far to Arizona's side as possible would have given the outcome up.

Owen didn't come back for the second day, I noticed. Yeah, that was probably because Kevin McKidd was directing the episode, but I still like to think it was because he also had a problem with the angle Callie's lawyer took with Bailey (remember, he broke up with a girlfriend for wanting to give up her medical career to be a stay-at-home mom for a few years, so he wouldn't have appreciated that line of attack either) and he chose to express it by not coming for the second day. Andrew still showed for Arizona on the second day even though, like Owen, he'd already testified on day one. I was amused how after on day one Callie had had four supporters and Arizona had two, for day two it flipped to one supporter for Callie and three for Arizona.

It does bring up another point: Although the rest of the hospital wasn't there to witness the worst of Callie's attacks on Arizona, that doesn't mean they won't hear about it. Arizona will probably tell April and Alex. Bailey will probably tell some of the other attendees, and Andrew will probably tell some of the other residents. I can also see Arizona chewing Callie out about it and someone overhearing. Word is going to get around.

1 hour ago, Deanie87 said:

Maybe its just me, but I don't think that this recent string of events is totally out of character for Callie.  She always jumps into some situation with both feet and then is completely shocked when there are negative consequences.  I think she sometimes browbeats people to get what she wants and if things don't go her way, she whines and then removes herself completely from any blame and becomes the victim.  She did it with George, she did it with Hahn, she has done it numerous times with Arizona and she did it with the plane crash stuff.  I don't think that any of it is malicious on her part, she does have a huge heart and just wants to be happy, nor am I minimizing the fact that she has been treated badly by various people.  But she doesn't think before she acts and when things blow up in her wake, she is constantly bewildered at how she got there and seems to have absolutely no self-awareness as the part she may have played.   So while the stuff with Penny and Sofia is on a much larger scale as things involving children always are, I don't think that this is some kind of Callie that we have never seen before.  Its just that this time there she doesn't have anything to play the victim about.

Oh, I thought this whole thing from start to finish was completely in character for Callie, so you're not alone. The impulsiveness, the failure to consider that Arizona might have a different point of view, the shock and anger once Arizona made clear she not only had a different point of view but that she wouldn't just roll over, the fighting dirty - we have seen all of that consistently over the years. This was the ugliest manifestation we've ever seen of those traits, but she had all of them before. 

16 minutes ago, timimouse said:

And it still really bugged me that Meredith was so much on Callie's side. I didn't understand why she agreed to testify on Callie's behalf so quickly. All of them actually because there are very few doctors in that hospital that I would say is closer to one than the other (except Richard with Arizona) but Meredith especially because I remember in the days of George, she DID NOT like Callie AT ALL. Can somebody tell me when that changed? I know they became civil and maybe even friendly at one point but to the extent that she thinks Callie should take Sophia from Arizona? The Arizona that was in a plane crash with Meredith? She expects Arizona to fly across the country regular after having been in said plane crash and Mer herself can hardly fly now? Oh and Meredith is now drinking tequila in bed with Callie because they're oh so close? **Rolls Eyes** Whatever....

Callie lived with Meredith for a while after she left Arizona over the cheating, and they got pretty close, sharing the childcare and housework and so on. It culminated in an amusing moment where Meredith absent-mindedly gave Callie the same sort of "bye" peck on the lips that she'd just given Derek. So I always expected that Meredith would side with Callie in this case (not knowing that Callie planned to play the adoptive-isn't-as-good-as-biological card).

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Finally, I see some posters saying that Callie showed no remorse but during the scene with her an Meredith drinking on the bed, didn't she say that she lay awake every night wondering if she was doing the right thing? Is that not her questioning her decision to go down this road?

She said she wondered if she started something that she shouldn't have. I appreciated her acknowledgment that she started this, it was a little layer of nuance and self-doubt that we didn't otherwise get to see from her, so I agree, she wasn't totally oblivious and remorseless. It would probably have gone over better with viewers though if it seemed to come partly from a place of wondering what was best for Sofia, as opposed to just being concerned about losing (and if she hadn't finished the episode saying "How the hell did this happen?"). Contrast to Arizona in the previous episode questioning whether she should fight the case after all, in which she said she felt like a terrible mother, that she was hurting Sofia. Callie never questioned her own parenting choices.

[Chicken Wing]

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Oh please. And it still really bugged me that Meredith was so much on Callie's side. I didn't understand why she agreed to testify on Callie's behalf so quickly. All of them actually because there are very few doctors in that hospital that I would say is closer to one than the other (except Richard with Arizona) but Meredith especially because I remember in the days of George, she DID NOT like Callie AT ALL. Can somebody tell me when that changed?

If I recall, Meredith never actually disliked Callie. She kind of laughed at her eccentricities behind her back with Izzie, but beyond that she was kind of indifferent toward her as far as liking/disliking. She very quickly encouraged George, actually, to pursue her, the hot dirty sexy girl. It was Callie who never liked Meredith in the beginning, mainly because of the whole incident between Meredith and George but also because Meredith and Izzie seemed to her to go out of their way to make her feel unwanted even though she was George's girlfriend. In the years since, though, Meredith and Callie have been fine with each other, but I've never been sure when they became specifically "friends." And I certainly don't get why Meredith automatically agreed to testify for Callie here, but only because Meredith identifies more with Arizona's case.

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Also, I'm not sure why there was so much debate as to whether or not Arizona had adopted Sofia. I remember the episode after the accident and Sofia was born that Arizona told Callie that she wanted legal rights. It was after her and Mark were arguing about the best treatment for the baby and he screamed at her something about her not even being a parent and telling her that she was nothing. Callie agreed with her that they would make it happen. I just don't expect us to see everything on screen. Like I think Meredith and Derek eventually did get legally married but we only ever saw the post-it (I think). Anyway, at least now we know there was a legal adoption. Meaning equal rights.

I remember (vaguely) Mark trying to make Arizona feel excluded because she wasn't the "real" parent like he and Callie were, but more specifically I remember an episode when Zola was back in the hospital and Meredith wasn't allowed to go see her, and Arizona realized that she would be in the same situation if it were Sofia so she quickly appealed to Callie that she wanted something on paper, something legal, to recognize her as Sofia's mother, because she's her mama too. But I don't think it was ever mentioned again. We could assume that it was taken care of after that, but it was never actually mentioned or clarified, so it's always been a bit of a question mark. Did they ever actually get that legal something or other on paper? And if so, did they make her legal guardian or did she legally adopt her? They never said anything until now.

And we did see Meredith and Derek officially get married. It was the same episode as Callie and Arizona's wedding. Meredith and Derek skipped the ceremony and went down to the courthouse to get married themselves, because they decided it would make them better prospects to adopt Zola. There was no question that they were married only on the Post-It until then.

Edited May 8, 2016 by Chicken Wing

[DearEvette]

9 hours ago, Black Knight said:

The other weird thing is that, even though it makes sense that Callie would need to call Arizona's fitness as a parent into question, Arizona's lawyer didn't seem prepared for it - for some reason she thought Callie had the better case, even without the character assassination. Arizona and her lawyer obviously had agreed that they would not pursue a strategy of trashing Callie, but it still would have made sense to gather the data of the emergency surgeries, texts, etc. to prepare for and be ready to answer Callie's lawyer's attacks. But Arizona's lawyer wasn't prepared and Arizona herself was shocked at how far Callie went. So it just seems like that was never part of the calculus on Arizona's side.

I think this really wasn't part of Arizona's calculations because as she said "they switch all the time"  so to Arizona that would have been a non-issue because it was something they both did.  Callie chose to selectively use it in a way that made Arizona look bad. 

I am really baffled by why Callie chose to go so scorched earth in this.  The move and Penny aside, Arizona is still Sofia's mother and there still has to be some sort of relationship between the women throughout her life. The route Callie went assures that the relationship would be more bitter than is really necessary.

[choclatechip45]

Callie and Meredith became friends at the end of season 8. Richard asked Callie to help Meredith study for her boards. I remember Callie saying something about how they should be friends.

I think Alex would always have Arizona's back over Callie. I think the friend thing was a bs excuse. I think with everything Alex went through as a kid and adult he knew how bitter custody battles are. Remember how upset he was when he came back from puttin Aaron in a pshycriatitc hospital? Plus he looked disgusted when Callie asked him to testify. While he didn't give Arizona the same look.

Edited May 8, 2016 by choclatechip45

[Chicken Wing]

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Callie and Meredith became friends at the end of season 8. Richard asked Callie to help Meredith study for her boards. I remember Callie saying something about how they should be friends.

Ah, yes, I remember that scene. There were out walking and Callie was mentioning how the two of them were never really friends before, even when she was with George. I remember because it always sticks out to me when the show cares to mention George's name. "O'Malley!"

[Black Knight]

On May 7, 2016 at 7:54 PM, Eolivet said:

Since everyone has already commented on the Callie/Arizona storyline, I will say how surprised I am that Jackson and April's scene is being referred to as "co-parenting" and "adulting." From where I was sitting, they were gazing longingly into each other's eyes -- I couldn't tell whether it was a custody arrangement or a date (or both). This was not a dispassionate discussion that was the model of maturity -- this was a starry-eyed look into their future (never mind that it was a future supposedly apart). if they weren't divorced, you'd assume they were just a normal couple talking about things were going to be like when the baby was born. They don't fool me at all -- they're not adulting, they're backsliding. The question is where it goes from here.

To switch topics for a moment - could you unpack that more? I mean, I kind of agree in that April and Jackson are clearly still in love, and I fully expect them to get back together eventually (although, considering how Grey's drags things out, that very well might not be anytime soon). But I'm just not sure what they could have done better here, given that there is a baby coming and they're not currently together nor are they actively working towards a romantic reconciliation, so they do have to make decisions about how to split time and parenting. I thought the fact that they had both done reading about the way to best divide up time once the child is older, and that neither suggested sharing holidays (which I would have seen somewhat as "Maybe we won't just be two divorced parents coming together to share a holiday for our kid's sake, we'll actually be a family!" hopefulness), showed that they were genuinely planning for a future in which they remain apart. Yes, they were a bit googly-eyed, but they can't help that they're still in love. They didn't get divorced because they no longer love each other, they got divorced because their relationship became extremely fractured despite their love for each other.  I thought they handled the very necessary discussion about their future parenting plans in as adult of a way as could be managed under the circumstances. It wasn't dispassionate, but it was mature and their plan didn't include any "we might get back together" caveats.

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I remember (vaguely) Mark trying to make Arizona feel excluded because she wasn't the "real" parent like he and Callie were, but more specifically I remember an episode when Zola was back in the hospital and Meredith wasn't allowed to go see her, and Arizona realized that she would be in the same situation if it were Sofia so she quickly appealed to Callie that she wanted something on paper, something legal, to recognize her as Sofia's mother, because she's her mama too.

Yes, that's how I remember it too. Mark said that to Arizona because at the time they were fighting about whether to have the baby removed from Callie despite the risk that the baby wouldn't live. Mark wanted to save Callie's life at any cost, and Arizona was against it because she knew it wasn't the choice Callie would make and she wanted to respect Callie's wishes and give the baby more time to grow. Mark got angry and told Arizona she didn't have a say anyway. Then Callie got worse and the surgery became required rather than optional. Sofia almost died, Arizona saved her life (I really wish Bailey had had the presence of mind to bring that up in court), and after that Mark apologized and told Arizona she was Sofia's mother, and forever after he stuck to that and spoke of and treated Arizona as an equal parent (I agree with the posters who said Mark would have been on Arizona's side here). Then in a later episode, Arizona had the total breakdown prompted by the incident you recounted about Meredith and Zola, and Callie promised they'd get her legal rights. Some states do allow three legal parents now - the birth mother and father can go to court and agree, without having to give up any parental rights of their own, that one of their partners should be allowed to adopt the child and become a third legal parent - but back then, I don't think so, so it was probably a guardian-type of thing. But once Mark died the way would have been completely clear for Arizona to adopt Sofia, and given her fears about losing Sofia, and how very aware she is of mortality (Mark died, Arizona almost died once, Callie almost died once, every day at work she sees people dying) I never doubted that she did. Of course, she never dreamed that one day Callie would try to take their child from her.

Edited May 8, 2016 by Black Knight

[GreysFan89]

52 minutes ago, Black Knight said:

Yes, that's how I remember it too. Mark said that to Arizona because at the time they were fighting about whether to have the baby removed from Callie despite the risk that the baby wouldn't live. Mark wanted to save Callie's life at any cost, and Arizona was against it because she knew it wasn't the choice Callie would make and she wanted to respect Callie's wishes and give the baby more time to grow. Mark got angry and told Arizona she didn't have a say anyway. Then Callie got worse and the surgery became required rather than optional.

If Arizona had wanted to play dirty too, then when Callie's lawyer was talking about Arizona "coming along" and that the pregnancy was "an agreement she(Callie) entered into with Mark Sloan." she could have brought this up, I'm glad she didn't but it would have been proof that Arizona never viewed herself as just Callie's girlfriend but as a Mom even before Sofia was born and she wasn't just hanging around because she wanted to be with Callie no matter what, when she thought they might have to choose she picked their baby.

[Black Knight]

28 minutes ago, GreysFan89 said:

If Arizona had wanted to play dirty too, then when Callie's lawyer was talking about Arizona "coming along" and that the pregnancy was "an agreement she(Callie) entered into with Mark Sloan." she could have brought this up, I'm glad she didn't but it would have been proof that Arizona never viewed herself as just Callie's girlfriend but as a Mom even before Sofia was born and she wasn't just hanging around because she wanted to be with Callie no matter what, when she thought they might have to choose she picked their baby.

In fairness, I am truly not sure what Arizona herself would have chosen. She never said which option she personally preferred. But she knew what Callie would choose if Callie had been able to speak for herself, and so she advocated for Callie. Arizona's position was essentially that it was Callie's body, Callie's choice. Not Mark's or Arizona's. If she thought Callie would choose the surgery to save her own life, then that is what Arizona would have advocated for. Arizona's personal wishes did not enter into it, and we never found out what they were. (This is why Arizona was so angry with Callie about the leg later on. Arizona was very clear about her wishes, and Callie specifically went against those wishes and did what she herself wanted. Yes, in the end, Arizona's happy to be alive after all, and has fully adjusted to not having her leg, but it was still a fundamental breaking of trust. When you give someone else decision-making power in the event you are incapacitated, you expect them to follow your wishes.)

I loved the way Arizona answered when Callie's lawyer was saying that Callie and Mark had entered a parenting agreement - she just said, "They entered it after the fact, but yes, Mark was Sofia's father." Such a classy way of correcting that without going into the details that Callie and Mark had a drunken ONS in which they were too stupid to have Mark wear a condom, even though he slept around routinely and could've given Callie something so much worse than an unexpected baby.

Edited May 8, 2016 by Black Knight

[GreysFan89]

Just now, Black Knight said:

In fairness, I am truly not sure what Arizona herself would have chosen. She never said which option she personally preferred. But she knew what Callie would choose if Callie had been able to speak for herself, and so she advocated for Callie. Arizona's position was essentially that it was Callie's body, Callie's choice. Not Mark's or Arizona's. (This is why Arizona was so angry with Callie about the leg later on. Arizona was very clear about her wishes, and Callie specifically went against those wishes and did what she herself wanted. Yes, in the end, Arizona's happy to be alive after all, and has fully adjusted to not having her leg, but it was still a fundamental breaking of trust. When you give someone else decision-making power in the event you are incapacitated, you expect them to follow your wishes.)

I loved the way Arizona answered when Callie's lawyer was saying that Callie and Mark had entered a parenting agreement - she just said, "They entered it after the fact, but yes, Mark was Sofia's father." Such a classy way of correcting that without going into the details that Callie and Mark had a drunken ONS in which they were too stupid to have Mark wear a condom, even though he slept around routinely and could've given Callie something so much worse than an unexpected baby.

I just meant if she had wanted to play dirty she could have mentioned that, Callie and her lawyer were twisting the truth to their advantage she could have stooped to their level but I'm really glad she didn't and I loved the way she answered that too - especially since they had just been slut-shaming her. Way to rise above!

[GreysFan89]

Was anyone else hoping that when Callie was talking about the day Sofia was born she would mention "and that's when I started singing Chasing Cars to myself." lol

[Black Knight]

Oh, I see what you mean. Yes, Arizona resisted twisting the truth around the way Callie and her lawyer had been doing all through the trial. Major props to her.

I'm kinda glad Arizona got interrupted by her phone, because god knows what else Callie's lawyer had planned for the cross-examination. Someone commented earlier that they were surprised Callie's lawyer didn't bring up Arizona not wanting kids initially, but that was probably next on deck. And then more slut-shaming: How many women has Arizona slept with in the last six months? Why doesn't she want to settle down and commit when she has a child? etc.

[pennben]

17 minutes ago, GreysFan89 said:

,,,, Way to rise above!

Or maybe, rise up?!:)

What a perfectly beautiful song to play over that ending. 

[OtterMommy]

I just watched this so I'm waaaay behind on posts.  But, there is this thing that is bugging me about the whole Callie/Arizona custody thing and I had to get it out there.  I'm sorry if someone already brought this up.

While this was an extremely uncomfortable show for me, a fan who likes both Callie and Arizona (but not Penny), I do agree with the judge's ruling, if only for this:  Callie wanted to take Sofia away from her entire support system because of a relationship that is still new and lacks any real commitment.  All the adults on this show work and Callie, Arizona, and Meredith all rely upon each other (as Meredith testified) and, in New York, Callie wold have to hire that network and fill it with people Sofia did not know.

But here is what was bugging me: Why even do this?  Isn't Penny's fellowship for only a year and she's still technically in the intern program at GSMH and, therefore, would be returning once her fellowship is over?  I mean, Callie is ridiculously stupid for dropping her career for Penny (as Bailey pointed out) and her claims of "I just want to live my life they way I want to" is not only selfish but incredibly short-sighted.  But, to drag her young daughter through this just really makes no sense.  I mean, I could even see (but not really believe and definitely not support) if she worked out an agreement with Arizona where Callie would have Sofia for the year but then they would return to the original agreement once Callie and Penny returned.  I don't know...I guess that all just bothered me enough that it interfered with my enjoyment (?) of the show.

Also, Penny....when I see a character on a TV show that I doesn't work for me, I always ask myself what is behind that--is it the character, the writing, or the acting and, in this case, I'm pretty sure the bulk of the problem is the acting.  There is the issue that the character is shoe-horned in, and that is a problem, but I was also listening to the dialogue and I really think that a different actress could deliver her lines in a much more effective way.  I mean, Penny would probably not be my favorite character under any circumstance, but I do think I could stomach her easier (and be more willing to believe that she would be worth it to Callie for her to uproot her life) if she were played by a different actress.

[Starscream]

3 hours ago, Chicken Wing said:

I remember (vaguely) Mark trying to make Arizona feel excluded because she wasn't the "real" parent like he and Callie were,

That was more a case of Mark taking offense to Arizona calling him a sperm donor by calling her a nothing.  After Sofia was born, they were all pretty much on board with the modern family scheme.  Of course, it wasn't until the plane crash that Arizona stopped resenting Mark's permanent presence in Callie's life, but that didn't seem to play much of a role when it came to Sofia.

[Black Knight]

5 minutes ago, OtterMommy said:

But here is what was bugging me: Why even do this?  Isn't Penny's fellowship for only a year and she's still technically in the intern program at GSMH and, therefore, would be returning once her fellowship is over?  I mean, Callie is ridiculously stupid for dropping her career for Penny (as Bailey pointed out) and her claims of "I just want to live my life they way I want to" is not only selfish but incredibly short-sighted.  But, to drag her young daughter through this just really makes no sense.  I mean, I could even see (but not really believe and definitely not support) if she worked out an agreement with Arizona where Callie would have Sofia for the year but then they would return to the original agreement once Callie and Penny returned.  I don't know...I guess that all just bothered me enough that it interfered with my enjoyment (?) of the show.

The "it's only for a year" thing was never mentioned by anyone - not Callie, Penny, Arizona, either lawyer - and Callie and her lawyer offered Arizona visitation rights for summers (and school breaks). Summers. So I think Callie's plan was that once she and Penny moved to NYC, they wouldn't come back. They would form a new network of professional connections in NYC that Penny would use to get another job there after the Preminger was over, and put down roots. And although Arizona would have been against uprooting Sofia either way, she probably wouldn't have been as "I'm losing my little girl" if it was only to be for a year.

[OtterMommy]

1 minute ago, Black Knight said:

The "it's only for a year" thing was never mentioned by anyone - not Callie, Penny, Arizona, either lawyer - and Callie and her lawyer offered Arizona visitation rights for summers (and school breaks). Summers. So I think Callie's plan was that once she and Penny moved to NYC, they wouldn't come back. They would form a new network of professional connections in NYC that Penny would use to get another job there after the Preminger was over, and put down roots. And although Arizona would have been against uprooting Sofia either way, she probably wouldn't have been as "I'm losing my little girl" if it was only to be for a year.

Right, it wasn't mentioned in the past couple of episodes, but it WAS mentioned when the grant first come up and I think part of the "approval" that Callie thought she was getting from Arizona included something along the lines of "it's only for a year" (although I could be mis-remembering that part).  So, I'm not sure if it was a lapse on the part of the writing team or if a scene was cut somewhere that had Callie or Penny decide that they were done with GSMH (which also doesn't really make sense since Callie is one of the owners of the hospital), but there is definitely a disconnect there that, for me at least, sort of destroys the whole reason for even having this custody battle.

[GreysFan89]

Do you think if the situation was reversed that there would be anyone on Arizona's side on the show or off?

[Black Knight]

6 minutes ago, OtterMommy said:

Right, it wasn't mentioned in the past couple of episodes, but it WAS mentioned when the grant first come up and I think part of the "approval" that Callie thought she was getting from Arizona included something along the lines of "it's only for a year" (although I could be mis-remembering that part).  So, I'm not sure if it was a lapse on the part of the writing team or if a scene was cut somewhere that had Callie or Penny decide that they were done with GSMH (which also doesn't really make sense since Callie is one of the owners of the hospital), but there is definitely a disconnect there that, for me at least, sort of destroys the whole reason for even having this custody battle.

I've rewatched all the relevant scenes more times than I really want to admit, so I can definitely say that Callie didn't say anything to AZ when trying to get her approval about their move only being for a year. If that was the plan, not only would I have expected her to say "it's only for a year," I would've expected her to cast this as an entertaining, educational once-in-a-lifetime experience for Sofia, to get to experience New York City. I think your speculation that maybe a scene was cut out somewhere explaining the change makes sense. I could see it being that when Penny thought she was going alone, she intended to return to Callie, so at that point "it's only a year." But once Callie decided she would give up her job in Seattle and move with Penny, it turned into a permanent move.

Edited May 8, 2016 by Black Knight

[pennben]

40 minutes ago, OtterMommy said:

But here is what was bugging me: Why even do this?  Isn't Penny's fellowship for only a year and she's still technically in the intern program at GSMH and, therefore, would be returning once her fellowship is over?  I mean, Callie is ridiculously stupid for dropping her career for Penny (as Bailey pointed out) and her claims of "I just want to live my life they way I want to" is not only selfish but incredibly short-sighted.  But, to drag her young daughter through this just really makes no sense.

That's the question, isn't it?!  I think 98.9% of folks side with Arizona and do not understand Callie here, and I'm not sure that is the balance the show runners want.

I have developed a theory, and if there was a "conspiracy" thread here, I'd put it there, but there isn't so I hope all will indulge me for a minute.

What if this plot was meant as a Season 11 plot for Meredith/Derek, but for whatever reason they aborted it to get Dempsey out before the end of that season?  Thinking this through, Season 10 ended with Meredith, after agreeing to move across country with Derek and the kids backing out and saying she wasn't going to leave and if Derek wanted to fine, but the family was staying in Seattle because that was home.  Season 11 sees them trying to negotiate the cross-country relationship, and having difficulty with it.  In that scenario, it made perfect sense for Derek to move across the country because he was working for the President directly.  He also had family on that coast.  And Meredith had reasons to stay in Seattle and not want to disrupt the kids and had a good job there. Maybe they planned this for them to give up and fight for custody in a cliffhanger at the end of Season 11 because they weren't sure Dempsey would come back for Season 12 (even though he had a contract, he was already expressing some regret).  But once things blew up for whatever reason mid-season and it was determined he had to go, the plot had to be dropped.  Remember, it was quite quick when he decided he couldn't stay away and came back before being killed off.

It's a compelling plot, so I can see why they wouldn't let it go and transferred it to Arizona/Callie, but for all the reasons we've all said, Callie's motives never have really made sense here.

Anyway, just some crazy thoughts, carry on...

Edited May 8, 2016 by pennben

[Starscream]

13 minutes ago, GreysFan89 said:

Do you think if the situation was reversed that there would be anyone on Arizona's side on the show or off?

Callie is probably second only to Meredith on the list of Shonda's favorites while Arizona gets the same amount of focus as the male characters on this show, so it's not really a question of Arizona receiving the same amount of support as she wouldn't be in that position in the first place.

[Black Knight]

10 minutes ago, pennben said:

That's the question, isn't it?!  I think 98.9% of folks side with Arizona and do not understand Callie here, and I'm not sure that is the balance the show runners want.

I wondered about the balance the showrunners wanted when they sidelined both April and Alex and had Bailey, who is rarely written as being in the wrong, sitting on Callie's side in the previews. Arizona had been getting the more sympathetic writing leading up to this episode, as she was the only one shown questioning what was best for Sofia, and crying in her car, while Callie's whole thing of wanting to move for a new girlfriend was just not rootable on any level, but Bailey sitting on Callie's side along with neither April nor Alex testifying for AZ threw me.

But once Voice of the Show Bailey switched sides and sat next to Slightly Less Frequent Voice of the Show Webber, I knew the showrunners never intended this to be a story where the audience was seriously divided between Callie and Arizona. But I still thought AZ was gonna lose, and then somebody would shame Callie into doing the right thing, and thus Callie would redeem herself. I don't think the showrunners want us to hate Callie for the rest of her time on the show, however long it is, so how they plan to redeem her now is the question for me.

Edited May 8, 2016 by Black Knight

[arilliope]

20 minutes ago, GreysFan89 said:

Do you think if the situation was reversed that there would be anyone on Arizona's side on the show or off?

If the situation was reversed and it was Arizona with Penny, I honestly don't think this mess would have happened because Az is not impulsive. (Yes she has made mistakes, but was during a bad time for her when she was physically and emotionally unstable.) I know that Arizona doesn't "do long distance relationships", so I think she'd either break up with Penny or if she really did indeed love her enough, she'd give LDR a try.

However, say she acted OOC and wanted to follow Penny and take Sofia with her, I'm pretty certain Alex and April would have her back. When push comes to shove, Alex and April always pull through for Arizona.

[GreysFan89]

3 minutes ago, Starscream said:

Callie is probably second only to Meredith on the list of Shonda's favorites while Arizona gets the same amount of focus as the male characters on this show, so it's not really a question of Arizona receiving the same amount of support as she wouldn't be in that position in the first place.

It still baffles me how anyone can be on Callie's side in this situation, if it was Arizona or one of the male characters there would be no way to redeem them in the eyes of most viewers, but yet you know if SaRa is staying, Callie will be everyone's best-est friend next season. I'm actually really surprised Shonda would approve this storyline in the first place, they usually have to have Callie as the victim in some way but she just isn't in anyway the victim here. 

5 minutes ago, searims said:

If the situation was reversed and it was Arizona with Penny, I honestly don't think this mess would have happened because Az is not impulsive. (Yes she has made mistakes, but was during a bad time for her when she was physically and emotionally unstable.) I know that Arizona doesn't "do long distance relationships", so I think she'd either break up with Penny or if she really did indeed love her enough, she'd give LDR a try.

However, say she acted OOC and wanted to follow Penny and take Sofia with her, I'm pretty certain Alex and April would have her back. When push comes to shove, Alex and April always pull through for Arizona.

I don't get you, cause neither had her back in this. They both copped out on supporting her.

[Joana]

I'm now thinking about this "It's only a year" thing. I hadn't given it much though since it clearly was said in the beginning that the research would last a year, so we all went along with it. But yeah, now that I've thought about it, there's something lacking there. The actual phrase "Just a year" should have certainly come up more often and I'm sure both of them would try to use it to their advantage. Like Black Knight said, Callie could claim it's actually a unique opportunity for Sofia and something she could only benefit from. She could also say that Arizona can visit any time she wants and Sofia would spend her holidays in Seattle, and the year will go by before they even know it. Arizona could on the other hand argue that it's unreasonable to uproot the child and disrupt her life twice over a single year - she would just get used to living in NY before she'd have to move back again. She could say that Callie can visit any time she wants and Sofia could spend the holidays with her. Or simply, that Callie can stay in Seattle and try a long distance relationship, like any sane person would. And yes, the opening scenes of this episode did seem like the two lawyers negotiating over the conditions of a permanent move.

And honestly, if it's just a year, they could probably quite easily come to an understanding if they really tried. Callie could spend her time between Seattle and New York. As one of the owners of the hospital, I'm sure she could find a way to manage her schedule. And Arizona would probably be perfectly willing to let Sofia go and spend some time with Callie and Penny in New York during her school holidays. 

On the other hand, Callie did say she'd work part-time in New York, which I don't think she'd be doing if she considered settling down there permanently. She'd have probably wanted to find a full-time job ASAP, which surely would not be a problem for someone of her reputation. 

Maybe even the writers realized how ridiculous it was to have all this hoopla over just a year, so they tried to play down that fact as much as possible.

[craziness]

I have so many questions about this super prestigious Premier grant, that we never heard of before,  but is apparently an annual event,  since Penny (before she sneakily applied) made a comment that they always pick senior residents (or interns,  I can never remember the order of these levels) and she would just apply the next year. 

So,  super prestigious annual event that we've never heard of before,  even though GS is such a prestigious teaching hospital, so people like Christina or Lexie should have gotten it. 

Is this a grant just for GS interns/residents (i/r)?  They said in the ep where it was awarded that the attendings would each recommend one i/r, and after discussion the chief of surgery (bailey) would decide on the winner. 

I understand that the winner would need a few weeks/a month to prepare to leave,  but how long has it been since it's been awarded?

Where I work,  if you get some big thing (full time academic training with normal pay,  a physical move to a new city paid for by the company) you owe the company a certain amount of (I'll say) loyalty to come back.  Training is 3 times the amount of time you were out in training,  the move is you have to reimburse all moving costs.  So,  if GS is anything like my company,  Penny would have to come back or would owe GS some major bucks. Oh,  and my company would not pay for Callie to move, unless they got married. 

[Kate213]

I seem to remember when Callie and Penny were talking about the grant after Penny initially won it, Penny said she'd be moving to New York for "at least a year."  So it seemed like the grant timeline was for a year but could be longer if needed.  That uncertainty could be another reason why Arizona wasn't willing to take school breaks and summers (plural), and why Callie was treating it like a permanent move (quitting her job instead of taking a sabbatical, not even considering long distance, etc).  Callie definitely didn't mention the year timeframe to Arizona, but she'd be familiar with the grant anyway.  With Penny in the middle of residency and taking a leave for the research fellowship, I'd imagine she'd have to return to Seattle after to finish her residency, unless she was planning to transfer programs AGAIN (Dillard > Grey Sloan > Preminger > NY / Timbuktu / The Moon?).

I don't think Callie said she wanted to work part-time, just that the offer she got was for less hours than what she was currently working.  Which seems to lean more toward a temporary position rather than a permanent one.  Someone of Callie's (supposed) reputation shouldn't have a problem finding a decent full-time job. 

The whole storyline can't really be looked at in too great a detail or it all starts to fall apart, which is classic Grey's.  Some things point to "just a year," while others (including the custody case itself) point to a permanent move.

[arilliope]

1 hour ago, GreysFan89 said:

It still baffles me how anyone can be on Callie's side in this situation, if it was Arizona or one of the male characters there would be no way to redeem them in the eyes of most viewers, but yet you know if SaRa is staying, Callie will be everyone's best-est friend next season. I'm actually really surprised Shonda would approve this storyline in the first place, they usually have to have Callie as the victim in some way but she just isn't in anyway the victim here. 

I don't get you, cause neither had her back in this. They both copped out on supporting her.

Arizona is written better (or back to her semi-original self) after Stacy McKee and Bill Harper took over as the show runners in Season 11. As for Callie, I think they are taking her to her absolute lowest point so that she can self-reflect on her actions for once and be accountable for herself rather than blaming others and playing the victim card. Which is why (in my opinion) they broke up Calzona early Season 11 so that they could be apart, mainly for Arizona to find herself and for Callie to not have Arizona as an excuse to make whatever choices she wants to make.

Regarding the Alex and April copping out of Arizona's witness line-up; I think the writers wanted to emphasise the under-dog aspect of Arizona's case and so they had Mer, Owen and Bailey (arguably the most out-spoken/well listened to characters) to support Callie. Notice, every time Calzona are in crisis, they show Callie and Mer as being best buddies. 

[Biggie B]

Didn't Mark Sloan have an adult daughter (named, I think, Sloane?), who is thus Sofia's half-sister? I would have loved for that judge to award custody of Sofia to Sloane for the next year, and tell both Arizona and Callie they're both out of luck! Although truth be told, I was totally fine with Arizona prevailing. It made logistical sense - when Mer mentioned how it takes a village, and Arizona's attorney went on that riff about how ALL of Sofia's support system is in Seattle, I feel as if that was the tipping point. For 12 months, it won't kill Callie to be one to do the traveling back and forth to visit. I don't know why Callie felt the only option was that Sofia move to NY for such a finite amount of time.

I'm hoping that Penny either decides to decline the fellowship or falls on her sword and breaks up with Callie, sacrificing her newly-found love so that Sofia can be with both of her parents. That would (a) get rid of the Penny character and (b) create all sorts of crazy tension and angst at the hospital (well, in addition to that which already exists!) as Arizona and Callie are forced to continue as colleagues. 

My 19 year old son, who does not and has not ever watched this show, wandered in as I was watching it. He asked what was going on, I gave him a 60-second synopsis, to which he replied, "None of these people are capable of being doctors or parents." He has a point!

As for Jackson and April hammering out the terms of their co-parenting - it seems too good to be true how well they're getting along. They're just way too amiable. I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop.

[Black Knight]

3 hours ago, GreysFan89 said:

Do you think if the situation was reversed that there would be anyone on Arizona's side on the show or off?

Off the show, absolutely not. I've noticed even people who don't like Arizona have been on her side in this story. It's not about how people feel about the women in question. Wanting to move your daughter away from her other parent so you can be with a new girlfriend is just not rootable. If Callie, not Penny, had been the one with the amazing job opportunity, I think people would've been at least sympathetic to her wanting to move. On the show, someone would've been on AZ's side, just because there has to be somebody, but it wouldn't have been Voices of the Show Webber or Bailey. They probably would've made it April; she's the easiest since out of everyone in the group she's the one who's really friends only with Arizona and not Callie, and April gets written as being wrong a lot, so her siding with AZ wouldn't be the show endorsing AZ's position.

3 hours ago, GreysFan89 said:

I don't get you, cause neither had her back in this. They both copped out on supporting her.

Technically, April didn't really cop out - Arizona fired her as her patient (I got a kick out of the fact that's the way the show presented it, having it said twice by two different characters in this episode, when the way I had thought of it was that Arizona fired herself as April's doctor), so her lawyer didn't feel comfortable putting April on the stand. So April was never asked. Arizona herself said April is a good person and would tell the truth, and wanted to put her on. And although April didn't come to court because she didn't want to watch fighting over kids when she'd already been through some of that herself, she was otherwise supportive, reminding Arizona she had to get going, then telling Alex not to text AZ because she had so much on her plate. (Which was a nice setup for the twist that it was April, not Alex, who ended up texting Arizona.)

Alex is the one I found rather iffy reasoning-wise. I just don't think his relationship with Callie is close to the same level as what he has with Arizona. I always felt like he likes Callie but loves Arizona. Arizona's opinion means everything to him. Before the plane crash, Callie told Alex that Arizona loves him. Arizona was also was comfortable confiding to Alex that she'd cheated on Callie, and she moved in with him for a while after she and Callie broke up for good. In short, Alex is the one who has been Arizona's person for most of her time on this show. Callie's person was Mark, of course. But I agree with searims that sidelining both Alex and April was the writers' way of emphasizing the underdog aspect for Arizona, and thus increasing her rooting value even more. On day one of the trial, she should've had the same number of supporters as Callie, four, but then she wouldn't have looked like an underdog.

But, apart from the one time he thought about texting her, Alex did generally want to keep from distracting Arizona from the trial. Honestly, that's one of the things I found really interesting here, the difference between Alex and April in that regard, who ended up texting Arizona and why, and how Arizona herself would have felt about it. And here's what I think: Arizona would say that April, not Alex, is the one who did the right thing. She was certainly not happy that she had to leave court, but if after court was over she had gone to the hospital to check on Jenny - which she certainly would have, just like she did the previous day - and learned that Jenny's baby had died, she would have been devastated, and felt terribly guilty, and been angry that she wasn't contacted.

2 hours ago, Joana said:

And honestly, if it's just a year, they could probably quite easily come to an understanding if they really tried. Callie could spend her time between Seattle and New York. As one of the owners of the hospital, I'm sure she could find a way to manage her schedule. And Arizona would probably be perfectly willing to let Sofia go and spend some time with Callie and Penny in New York during her school holidays. 

And, if it was just a year, I think Arizona would have folded at the beginning of this episode. Going to court to prevent Sofia being away for one year - just too risky. If she lost, then Callie would've been awarded sole physical custody and then, even when Callie moved back, she could potentially have still been so angry with Arizona for taking her to court that she would've refused to modify that to a joint custody arrangement. It really only makes sense to risk the court battle for sole physical custody if Callie was going to be moving across the country permanently and so AZ was never going to have much time with Sofia again anyway.

I wish someone had pointed out that putting Arizona in a position where she has to fly across the country to visit her daughter is kind of hilariously evil on Callie's part. (I can type "hilariously evil" because Callie lost. I'd be a lot less amused if Callie had won.)

1 hour ago, Kate213 said:

I don't think Callie said she wanted to work part-time, just that the offer she got was for less hours than what she was currently working.  Which seems to lean more toward a temporary position rather than a permanent one.  Someone of Callie's (supposed) reputation shouldn't have a problem finding a decent full-time job. 

Yeah, Callie never said part-time, just fewer hours (and the implication for why the fewer hours was that she wouldn't be a chief - a chief probably has more hours than an attending due to the managerial/oversight responsibilities). I think that's actually my fault; I said much earlier that Callie could have made an argument in court that she would be working part-time and so would be able to spend more time with Sofia (I was demonstrating a way Callie could have made a positive case for herself that didn't involve tearing Arizona down). Callie herself didn't say she'd be working part-time, but having her lawyer change "fewer hours" into "part-time" for court would have fit right in with their general legal strategy to twist everything around.

Edited May 9, 2016 by Black Knight

[Joana]

Another strange thing is that basically none of their friends really talked to them about this situation or tried to intervene, except for Bailey's "chasing tail" comment that can't be taken as an advice. If it's "just a year", surely someone would point out to Callie that there's absolutely no reason she must be taking Sofia with her full-time? And someone else would probably make Arizona question herself it whether it's really worth going to court over it if they're coming back next year anyway. And someone would most definitely ask "Can't you two just talk about this, for God's sake?!" On the other hand, if it's a permanent move, no one seemed to bat an eyelid about it. Certainly her friends who were all gushing about how great she was would be at least a bit upset and sad she's leaving?

You can't really make a coherent picture based on the things we've been shown. Basically, this:

1 hour ago, Kate213 said:

The whole storyline can't really be looked at in too great a detail or it all starts to fall apart, which is classic Grey's.  Some things point to "just a year," while others (including the custody case itself) point to a permanent move.

Edited May 9, 2016 by Joana

[TheresaW1934]

2 hours ago, Kate213 said:

I seem to remember when Callie and Penny were talking about the grant after Penny initially won it, Penny said she'd be moving to New York for "at least a year."  

You are correct.  At the end of the same program when Ben and Bailey were talking and Bailey asked Ben why he didn't apply - he said why would I want to be away from my family for a year or more.

 

Seems even though the application spoke of a year, there must be some thing that would allow it to take more than one years time. Obvious would be - research grant, research  becomes viable, keep team in place to continue. 

 

Plus, nothing was mentioned about what happens to the residents post grant.  if 5th years are the standard, then they most likely would move onto fellowship, hospital position or private practice.  Penny is 4th year.  Does she still have to complete her 5th year?  Is her residency guaranteed - as in can she return to Seattle? 

 

Callie said had a couple of other offers beyond the two she mentioned.

 

Neither Callie or Penny presented it as a one year commitment.  Callie presented it as an 'adventure'.  Did she sell her home for the adventure?  Is he going to rent?  Too many outstanding questions me thinks.

 

Regarding Callie and Penny - if they were engaged or even married before Penny leaves, or Penny leaves and Callie follows, or both leave together, how would that change the landscape? 

Or does everyone here think Callie and Penny are finished?  What was your take on the pulling the hand away scene in the end?

[Black Knight]

8 hours ago, DearEvette said:

I am really baffled by why Callie chose to go so scorched earth in this.  The move and Penny aside, Arizona is still Sofia's mother and there still has to be some sort of relationship between the women throughout her life. The route Callie went assures that the relationship would be more bitter than is really necessary.

I've been pondering this since you wrote it. All I can really come up with is, Callie is someone who never thinks through the consequences of her actions. Remember how a couple of episodes ago when she went to the NICU to butter up Arizona, she said "And I've done everything wrong since" with this huge grin on her face, like she expected Arizona to find her adorable and just melt? (And oh, how I loved the actual look Arizona shot her instead, not remotely amused or charmed, just 1000% done with Callie's bullshit.) I don't think she understood just how badly going scorched-earth would damage her relationship with Arizona, permanently. She probably thought Arizona would be upset for a little while and then get over it. But Arizona will never forgive her for this. She'll treat Callie civilly enough for Sofia's sake, she may even be able to be amicable with Callie again at some point in future. But she'll never forgive Callie, or really be able to trust her again. If Callie had understood that this would be the consequence of her scorched-earth tactics, she might have chosen differently. But I really expect that she'll be surprised in the next episode when Arizona doesn't just accept her lame apology.

47 minutes ago, TheresaW1934 said:

Or does everyone here think Callie and Penny are finished?  What was your take on the pulling the hand away scene in the end?

None of this is Penny's fault, but Callie "How did this happen?" Torres is sure to make her feel guilty - her pulling the hand away was the start of that. I expect Penny will decide to turn down the fellowship so she and Callie can stay in Seattle (thinking that since Callie made a sacrifice for her, now she needs to make a sacrifice for Callie), but I don't think it will ultimately be enough to save her relationship with Callie, as Callie's going to be bitter for a long time that Sofia now lives full-time with Arizona and Callie only has visitation. And at some point, I wouldn't be surprised if Penny has enough and tells Callie that she totally fucked up the way she handled everything with Arizona and that the tactics she used were awful. Penny showed herself to be a class act throughout this mess, even understanding Arizona's point of view and not falling into the easy trap of demonizing her, so frankly, I kind of think the only reason she didn't switch sides during the trial too was because as Callie's girlfriend she couldn't. I don't see Penny/Callie surviving all this.

And next season? Don't shoot me, but I think a Penny/Arizona relationship will be in the works. They have to give Arizona a girlfriend eventually, and there are only so many lesbian/bisexual women they're going to have in the already-large cast, and if they can give Arizona a girlfriend without having to introduce a new character, they will. That means Penny. One of the reasons Penny is not popular is because her relationship with Callie is chemistry-free, so I think they'll try to boost Penny's popularity by pairing her with Arizona, with whom Penny had more sparks when they met at the dinner party than Penny has had in her entire time with Callie. Penny and Arizona would have the short-term conflict in that they were on opposite sides for the custody trial, but Arizona should soften when she learns Penny never ratted her out to Callie, and then there's longer-term drama in Callie's reaction. (If Callie's even around to see it.)

Edited May 9, 2016 by Black Knight

[funnygirl]

No way Arizona dates Penny. Why would she want to? And imagine the mess and confusion that would be for Sofia, who knew Penny as Mama's girlfriend and now she's Mommy's? I just don't see that happening. And who even says Penny will be back next season? I don't think Penny is going to hang around, there certainly isn't a reason why she should. They have an out for the character and hopefully the show will take it. 

[Black Knight]

I don't like it either, but I can't see the show dropping the Penny character - they've invested so much in her, setting up multiple relationships for her, like Amelia mentoring her and so forth. Mere has come around to defending her as a good person. They were careful to portray Penny as a class act during the custody battle, not getting angry at Arizona even when Arizona lashed out at her, because she understood that Arizona was just wracked with pain and fear over the prospect of losing her daughter. I think she stays, and becomes a regular. They have just spent so much time on her this season that I would be shocked if they wrote her off.

And no, I don't see Arizona wanting to date her, but it would be one of those slow build kind of things where the reluctant feelings/attraction just builds, and the drama is in how complicated it is. It comes down to this: if they keep Penny on the show and make her a regular, there's no way they don't put her with Arizona. They are not going to have two lesbian regulars for whom they'd have to bring in outside girlfriends. I would rather see Arizona with someone new, so although I don't dislike Penny the way many do, I do hope she goes off to a happy, Callie-free, life in NYC. For the classy way she behaved during this storyline, she deserves a better partner than Callie.

[Kate213]

2 hours ago, Black Knight said:

And next season? Don't shoot me, but I think a Penny/Arizona relationship will be in the works.

They've just spent several episodes building Arizona up, they're not going to completely erase that by trying to pair her with dull Penny, her ex-wife's (soon to be) ex-girlfriend.  That will just make her hated again.  

I don't believe Penny will be around next season.  The actress isn't in the finale (and wasn't made a series regular, which given her massive screen time would have been especially likely if she was returning next season), so my guess is she goes to NY next episode and her and Callie break up.  Callie will realize that her relationship is not worth her daughter and Penny will realize that she deserves better.  On the one hand that will be wonderful because Penny will finally be off our screens but on the other hand it will be infuriating because what was the point of all this then?  I guess they're milking SaRa's uncertain contract status to the fullest and giving themselves the lamest possible out for her character if she doesn't re-sign.  But Callie won be able to leave Sofia, there's no way.  

I'm hoping Callie has to truly acknowledge the hurt and damage she's caused (and would have caused if she'd won), and if/when she stays that things with custody don't just immediately go back to how it was before (eventually, yes of course).  But if I were Arizona I'd be afraid that Callie was going to use her just going back to the old arrangement as proof that she can't handle sole custody and try to get a reversal --- not that Callie would, but that trust has got to be gone at this point.

My guess is that the finale will have some positive moment between those two with Sofia, just enough to indicate there's potential next season and to string fans along.  In real life they'd be completely done, especially after Arizona's cheating and Callie's unforgivable courtroom arguments, but ultimately this is a primetime soap opera.

Edited May 9, 2016 by Kate213

[arilliope]

Black Night, I really enjoy reading your insightful analysis of the current Callie-Arizona SL :)

Regarding Penny though, I think Perfect Penny is just the Perfect Prop. She was used to bring about growth in Mer, now that that's done, she was used to bring about growth in Amelia, now that that's done, she was used to bring about ultimate damage to Calzona, and with this 12x22 done and dusted, she has completed her mission on Greys season 12.

i don't think she'll be back for the next season and quite honestly, I think the writers deliberately chose her to be Callie's partner knowing full well that the two lacked in the chemistry department. So that it would be easy for the viewers not to get too invested in this couple. Heck, they done even have a ship name and they were together for most of the season.

As for Callie and Arizona, as much as I'm not a Calzona fan (ex-Calzona fan), I do think they are endgame so next season we'll probably see a slow burn reunion. I'd like to see Arizona get a new love interest (Penny 2.0) with Callie trying to win Az back.

[Chewy101]

Why is Maggie ALWAYS watching everyone's kids.

When Callie hugged her daughter on her way in to court, and Sophia said, "you're hugging me too tight, you're hugging me too long..." I burst out laughing. That sums up Callie to a T. Mark would be kicking her thoughtless clueless butt for all of this, were he still around. I still don't get how Owen and Meredith would choose Callie's side. with their own issues with kids. I think at this point in the series, it's safe to say if Meredith agrees with you, you need to change your mind.

I had to skip the court scenes. As soon as Owen called Callie a sympathetic person, I was out. Listening to all the twists and slants with each character is too much on my gag reflex.

Callie drinking tequila with Mer, the worst influence ever, whining about how this is so unfair. And doing it about the woman who killed Meredith's husband, lol. It's all too much. Callie seems incapable of seeing things clearly.

Couldn't resist and caught one part of the crap hearing. How on earth is Arizona taking her nights off to date any different than Callie doing it AND now trying to break up Sophia's family? ugh.

Had no idea sole custody would ever be given to Arizona, but I highly approve. I am sure Callie will blame Penny because Callie is a nutwit, but if she let's Penny go away alone, she is doing the girl a favor. Shame on you, show, for making Callie unbearable, but props for at least not letting her get away with it.

Edited May 9, 2016 by Chewy101

[Chewy101]

I am going to guess that the real reason why Alex and April didn't choose sides in custody, previously, is because they were needed to do the medicine stuff, where they showed the patient parallel about a child being better off on the outside or in the womb. Someone had to be around to show that Sophia needed to stay in Seattle. 

There was a moment where Callie was meeting with her attorney and marveling that Arizona could allow her lawyer to get so devious (about Penny), and even the attorney justified the actions. Then, her attorney got so ugly about Arizona that I continue to think Callie has become a monster. Clueless, selfish, and now the loser. Yay for Sophia, she gets to go home.

3 hours ago, Kate213 said:

And next season? Don't shoot me, but I think a Penny/Arizona relationship will be in the works.

I can see this happening. This show has no scruples, and the more pathetic and evil the characters are, the happier Shonda seems to be. So, yeah, I will be looking for this.

5 hours ago, funnygirl said:

No way Arizona dates Penny. Why would she want to? And imagine the mess and confusion that would be for Sofia, who knew Penny as Mama's girlfriend and now she's Mommy's?

I am pretty sure Sophia called Arizona mommy in the end, which makes this true. But I really thought Callie was Mommy before and Arizona was Mamma? I thought AZ was always Mamma....  When AZ told Callie at that party years ago that she wanted the papers signed up for custody, she said, "I'm the Mamma."

Edited May 9, 2016 by Chewy101

[Chewy101]

6 hours ago, TheresaW1934 said:

Or does everyone here think Callie and Penny are finished?  What was your take on the pulling the hand away scene in the end?

I didn't actually see them as finished, so much as Callie lashing out like the emotional child she is. But I would like Penny to move on and upward. And maybe Callie's hypocritical wretched friends can just plow her with liquor and encourage her downward spiral for next season.