S04.E08: The Magic of David Copperfield V: The Statue of Liberty Disappears

[JennyMominFL]

21 hours ago, madam magpie said:

When you say "annexed the other SSRs," do you mean Ukraine, etc.? Maybe. But places like Guam, Puerto Rico, Hawaii, etc. were more about imperialism than a buffer. Same with Soviet incursions into Vietnam, Afghanistan, etc. Taking over those places does little to protect the mother country against invasion, except establish spots around the world for military bases. The US has natural buffers in the two oceans, and it's bordered by two (mostly) friendly nations. We've never really needed to create a buffer zone. The Soviet Union was bordered by or very close to hostile nations, so the idea of creating a buffer zone does, in theory, make sense for them. But I think few people today would argue that the way Stalin did that (or even that the idea of creating a buffer at all) was OK. If I remember right, the Soviet Union, China, Vietnam, and Cuba all became communist of their own free will via their own internal revolutions. But Eastern Europe was forced into it. I think too that Lenin was against imperialism; wasn't he the one who called it "the highest form of capitalism"? But Stalin was a power-hungry dictator who saw things differently.

This morning, I found myself wondering if the illegals could or did vote. Elizabeth would TOTALLY be feeling the Bern right now. Ha!

 

It not a theory though,  about the buffer. That's really what they were doing and they left documents declaring just that. In March of 1946,  in response to Churchill's Iron Curtain speech , Stalin gave and interview in rebuttal. He specifically states thet the USSR needed a buffer. It As for the eastern  countries,  you are right to a degree. Lithuania, for example, had been a part of  the Polish-Lithuanian  commonwealth. They were actually annexed by Russia in the last decade of the 1700's. There was an attempt to establish and Independent Lithuanian state during  WW1, but it failed. Moldova, went back and fourth, being part of the Russian Empire, then not,  before the Revolution. Eastern Europe has also spent 100 or so years prior to the Revolution experiencing so-called Russification, in which their usual cultures and languages were lost. Languages like Belarussian, Lithuanian, Polish and Moldavan were completely lost in many places.  

 Canada never really tried to invade us. In reality, we were the invaders with Mexico.  Russia was repeatedly invaded for 150 years or so most famously, by both Germany and by Napoleon. Russia also felt they had longstanding claims in many of the Eastern Block nations due in part to the above reasons.

Bernie wouldn't be remotely close enough to communist for Elizabeth to support him.

[SunnyBeBe]

19 hours ago, jjj said:

The scene in the cemetery struck me as extremely risky -- and the fact that Philip knew where Gene's marker was located means that he had been there previously.  He looked an awful lot like "Clark" and the drawing the FBI has.  Even if the KGB knew the location of the grave, Gabriel would not tell it to Philip.  We never saw a funeral for Gene, correct?  I seem to remember Martha at a funeral, but maybe I am thinking about a different show. 

I thought that Philip appearing at the cemetery was risky too, but then I thought that it would probably be unlikely that the FBI would suspect that a KGB agent would feel remorse and want to visit the grave of an FBI Agent that they had murdered to show respect. 

I'm a little confused about Maurice. I know that Lisa said he had met a woman in Florida and disappeared.  Didn't that mean that Elizabeth or someone had already taken care of him and his body will never be found.  I mean, if  Maurice was alive and well in Florida, I would think that when E returned to the house after taking care of Lisa, she would have said that Maurice was a loose string that needed to be attended to.  Because, if he was still alive, he would likely spill the beans if he got word of Lisa's death and returned to be upset that the money had dried up.  That wouldn't be good.  I cant 't see them not taking care of Maurice for good. Of course, I know others say that that is why E made the comment about going to Epcot.  I guess we can't know the answer to this for sure.

Edited May 9, 2016 by SunnyBeBe

[madam magpie]

1 hour ago, JennyMominFL said:

It not a theory though,  about the buffer. That's really what they were doing and they left documents declaring just that. In March of 1946,  in response to Churchill's Iron Curtain speech , Stalin gave and interview in rebuttal. He specifically states thet the USSR needed a buffer. It As for the eastern  countries,  you are right to a degree. Lithuania, for example, had been a part of  the Polish-Lithuanian  commonwealth. They were actually annexed by Russia in the last decade of the 1700's. There was an attempt to establish and Independent Lithuanian state during  WW1, but it failed. Moldova, went back and fourth, being part of the Russian Empire, then not,  before the Revolution. Eastern Europe has also spent 100 or so years prior to the Revolution experiencing so-called Russification, in which their usual cultures and languages were lost. Languages like Belarussian, Lithuanian, Polish and Moldavan were completely lost in many places.  

 Canada never really tried to invade us. In reality, we were the invaders with Mexico.  Russia was repeatedly invaded for 150 years or so most famously, by both Germany and by Napoleon. Russia also felt they had longstanding claims in many of the Eastern Block nations due in part to the above reasons.

Bernie wouldn't be remotely close enough to communist for Elizabeth to support him.

I was joking about Sanders.

I didn't mean to sound like it was a theory, the buffer, but I do think there was more to it than just that. Stalin wanted to consolidate and expand power as well. Just because Stalin said something doesn't make it singularly true. He lied or embellished or left things out all the time. So I don't just take his word for it that the Soviet expanse into Eastern Europe was only to create a buffer zone to protect them from invasion. I believe there was a lot more to the politics, etc. than that.

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I'm a little confused about Maurice. I know that Lisa said he had met a woman in Florida and disappeared.  Didn't that mean that Elizabeth or someone had already taken care of him and his body will never be found.  I mean, if  Maurice was alive and well in Florida, I would think that when E returned to the house after taking care of Lisa, she would have said that Maurice was a loose string that needed to be attended to.

I think it meant he really did meet a woman and ran to Florida, taking her money. He's not really a loose string since he doesn't know Elizabeth's name and has only seen her disguise (even if it's not much of a disguise) and thinks she and "Jack" were working for a rival company. Maurice wasn't the one working for Northrup so wouldn't have any way of selling her information on his own, so would have no need to even try to contact her, and he's got no reason to even want to tell Northrup this had been going on.

Edited May 9, 2016 by sistermagpie

[Chaos Theory]

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I think it meant he really did meet a woman and ran to Florida, taking her money. He's not really a loose string since he doesn't know Elizabeth's name and has only seen her disguise (even if it's not much of a disguise) and thinks she and "Jack" were working for a rival company. Maurice wasn't the one working for Northrup so wouldn't have any way of selling her information on his own, so would have no need to even try to contact her, and he's got no reason to even want to tell Northrup this had been going on.

P&E can't kill everyone who has seen them in their disguises that would be a lot of killing even for them.  That is the point of their wigs and glasses.  Maurice at best can give a vague description of them and that is if someone doesn't think he hasn't killed Lisa himself. The more beliavable story is that he beat up his girlfriend and stole her money.  No one is going to believe two people no one  has ever met but them killed a woman he has been known to abuse.  

Edited May 9, 2016 by Chaos Theory

[AllyB]

6 hours ago, JennyMominFL said:

Bernie wouldn't be remotely close enough to communist for Elizabeth to support him.

I think thatafter the end of the Cold War, Elizabeth, if she had freedom to choose whatever she wanted and only had to think about herself rather than her family, would move to Cuba and then Venezuela. I could just see her leading the palace guards to defeat the coup against Chavez in 2002.

As for Bernie, what he's campaigning for is just minimum standard fare in most of Europe and we've never seen her express the opinion that Western Europe is the best of all worlds. Sure she'd probably be campaigning a little for him if she was in the US now but only because he'd be the least bad option to her. Not because his politics match hers.

Edited May 9, 2016 by AllyB

[madam magpie]

2 hours ago, AllyB said:

I think thatafter the end of the Cold War, Elizabeth, if she had freedom to choose whatever she wanted and only had to think about herself rather than her family, would move to Cuba and then Venezuela. I could just see her leading the palace guards to defeat the coup against Chavez in 2002.

As for Bernie, what he's campaigning for is just minimum standard fare in most of Europe and we've never seen her express the opinion that Western Europe is the best of all worlds. Sure she'd probably be campaigning a little for him if she was in the US now but only because he'd be the least bad option to her. Not because his politics match hers.

Politics are verboten here (I think?), so I'm really not intending to discuss. But I feel obligated to say that Bernie Sanders is not a communist; he has some socialist economic ideas. Communism in practice is basically a socio-political system, whereas socialism is a socio-economic system. Right now, Elizabeth seems to be a hardcore supporter of both. That doesn't mean she couldn't change over time, though. If she's really forced to confront the extravagance, classism, discrimination, and excess of the party, I can't help wondering what she'd do. She's already started to buy into the American idea of freedom of thought a little, and I'm reminded of the argument she and Philip had at the beginning of the show where she said the kids didn't have to be pure Americans; they could be socialists. She didn't say communists, which might be telling. 

I do kind of think she'd like Cuba or Venezuela. Philip would probably hate it, though.

Edited May 9, 2016 by madam magpie

[JennyMominFL]

12 hours ago, madam magpie said:

I was joking about Sanders.

I didn't mean to sound like it was a theory, the buffer, but I do think there was more to it than just that. Stalin wanted to consolidate and expand power as well. Just because Stalin said something doesn't make it singularly true. He lied or embellished or left things out all the time. So I don't just take his word for it that the Soviet expanse into Eastern Europe was only to create a buffer zone to protect them from invasion. I believe there was a lot more to the politics, etc. than that.

 

 

 

yeah, and Apologize. I didn't mean to imply that a buffer was the only reason. It was true, but  there were definitely other factors that are far less easy to understand or accept. For  one they needed the water ports that the Balkans and Ukraine could give them.  I mean, they have been fighting over Crimean ports since Peter the Great. And Stalin was a cruel, vile ,power-hungry man who wanted an empire

Edited May 10, 2016 by JennyMominFL

[AllyB]

11 hours ago, madam magpie said:

Politics are verboten here (I think?), so I'm really not intending to discuss. But I feel obligated to say that Bernie Sanders is not a communist; he has some socialist economic ideas.

I know that. I do think that season 1 Elizabeth would have liked Paige and Henry to have a future as something like a Sanders staffer. That's exactly what would have fit with the vague description of the future she hoped for them when she gave Philip in the pilot. But Sanders policies would be nothing more than a 'good start' in terms of Elizabeth's politics. I'd say Philip might be fine with them though. Philip would probably be very, very happy living in a Scandanavian country. I always thought it was kind of ironic that his cover for handling Annaliese was Swedish Intelligence, as it's the country who's politics I think would be close to ideal for him. If he really was Scott he would be quite happy as opposed to feeling like shit all of the time. I don't know if that was true of Sweden in the early 80s though.

[Hanahope]

I really felt a bit sorry for Paige.  She just had no idea how significant it would be in her telling Pastor Tim.  I really how that Paige isn't literally forced to spend every single day with them.  Wouldn't they think it strange?  A few times a week, sure, but every day?  That had to be a bit of an exaggeration by Elizabeth.  And Elizabeth has to know that Paige isn't trained enough to keep up that kind of subterfuge on a daily basis.  I'm sure it would be hard enough to keep up every few days.

Philip has to hope that there's never a need for him to be fingerprinted, or fingerprints taken in his home.

[madam magpie]

12 minutes ago, Hanahope said:

I really felt a bit sorry for Paige.  She just had no idea how significant it would be in her telling Pastor Tim.  I really how that Paige isn't literally forced to spend every single day with them.  Wouldn't they think it strange?  A few times a week, sure, but every day?  That had to be a bit of an exaggeration by Elizabeth.  And Elizabeth has to know that Paige isn't trained enough to keep up that kind of subterfuge on a daily basis.  I'm sure it would be hard enough to keep up every few days.

I thought that too! How weird and maybe even shifty it might seem if Paige were with the Groovyhairs everyday. It also seems reasonable to me that a teen might bail on bible study sometimes, not suspicious. I wondered briefly if that was another example of Elizabeth being out of touch.

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Hanahope said:

 

I really felt a bit sorry for Paige.  She just had no idea how significant it would be in her telling Pastor Tim.  I really how that Paige isn't literally forced to spend every single day with them.  Wouldn't they think it strange?  A few times a week, sure, but every day?  That had to be a bit of an exaggeration by Elizabeth.  And Elizabeth has to know that Paige isn't trained enough to keep up that kind of subterfuge on a daily basis.  I'm sure it would be hard enough to keep up every few days.

 

I would bet it is an exaggeration because as you say, it's not like these people would have time to see her all the time. I would guess she sort of more means there's not a day where she's not in their lives in some way just because stuff is going on. The day we saw her seemed to be a day off since the parents and Henry were at home playing and Paige was with Pastor Tim and mini golf, so that was probably a sign that sometimes she went on little outings like that. If they invited her she had to go. But every day would be suspicious. She was probably saying that because whatever she said it would be less than that.

It's always interesting on the show watching how the family dynamics work, the way that often there's one person who's on the outside. In early S3 there were some shots that made Philip isolated; Elizabeth was isolated in the baptism announcement scene, Henry's often the outsider because he's clueless. Here it was funny that you had the family enjoying normal fun time but Paige was banished to her Pastor Tim family, which in the past she'd run away too. It's a nice contrast to Henry's time at Stan's which he can just enjoy as variety since he can go home any time he wants.

[SlovakPrincess]

What is this show doing to me??! Nina dead, Martha whisked off to Russia sad and alone, Gaad pushed into retirement.   Damn, I'm running out of my favorite characters here, people!

I honestly wanted Martha to turn herself in.  At least her parents could visit her in an American jail.  And the FBI might have cut her a deal.  Partly, I just want to move the story forward.  It's not like the FBI would have immediately realized Clark was Philip from Martha's description, and it would raise the stakes a bit.

I get why Philip loves Martha -- I don't know why she still loves him.  He ruined her life.

Ugh, poor Paige.  And now Pastor Tim's wife is pregnant, which will make it extra gross if the Rezidentura decides to off them.  

I don't think Oleg can trust Tatiana.  I still kind of want them to have sex.  

[Inquisitionist]

On Friday, May 06, 2016 at 0:40 PM, madam magpie said:

There's nothing for Gregory; he was sold out and killed. She failed him.

Didn't Gregory have the same option as Martha?  I recall Elizabeth talking to him about adapting to life in the USSR.  He rejected that and chose to go out the way he did, knowing that what he really wanted (to go on the run in the US) was not acceptable to the KGB, for whom he willingly worked.
 

On Saturday, May 07, 2016 at 9:10 AM, DrSpaceman73 said:

 

Still not really clear about what Elizabeth's on related goal is with the Korean woman.  Infiltrating Mary K with Russian spies to get their beauty secrets and behind the scenes info on how to make things big and pink like their Cadillacs.

On Friday, May 06, 2016 at 0:40 PM, madam magpie said:

 

Ha, that's a good image.  ;-)  It's a bit subtle, but back in the 2nd or 3rd episode, Gabriel gave Elizabeth a list of possible targets for getting access to the 4th floor of the lab where William works.  This was her new and urgent assignment.  Almost immediately after that, we saw Elizabeth cozying up to Young Hee through Mary Kay.  Since Young Hee does not work at the lab herself, the inference is that a family member (most likely her husband) worked there.  E's mission is to work this relationship in a way that will result in access to the 4th floor.  
 

[madam magpie]

8 minutes ago, Inquisitionist said:

Didn't Gregory have the same option as Martha?  I recall Elizabeth talking to him about adapting to life in the USSR.  He rejected that and chose to go out the way he did, knowing that what he really wanted (to go on the run in the US) was not acceptable to the KGB, for whom he willingly worked.

Sure, yes. But I don't think that would change how Elizabeth views it. He's still dead. She still couldn't save him. (Also, didn't the KGB frame him as a drug dealer, or was that just the FBI?)

[Inquisitionist]

I think you're right that the KGB framed Gregory, but they still gave him a choice.  Elizabeth lashed out at Philip about Gregory for complicated emotional reasons, I think, but she's also logical and must know that if Martha had tried to turn down the Center's plan for her, she'd be as dead as Gregory.

[madam magpie]

16 minutes ago, Inquisitionist said:

I think you're right that the KGB framed Gregory, but they still gave him a choice.  Elizabeth lashed out at Philip about Gregory for complicated emotional reasons, I think, but she's also logical and must know that if Martha had tried to turn down the Center's plan for her, she'd be as dead as Gregory.

Ohhhhhhh yes, but what she knows logically and how she feels about how emotionally involved her husband seems to be with Martha were very much at odds. I think that was the whole point of the exchange. And she didn't really lash out at Philip about Grgory--at least, not that I saw. He lashed out at her for that. She lashed out about Irina, which I do think she had a right to be mad about.

[sistermagpie]

24 minutes ago, Inquisitionist said:

 

I think you're right that the KGB framed Gregory, but they still gave him a choice.  Elizabeth lashed out at Philip about Gregory for complicated emotional reasons, I think, but she's also logical and must know that if Martha had tried to turn down the Center's plan for her, she'd be as dead as Gregory.

 

Although this wasn't what they were actually arguing about I do think there's subtext of exactly this fact underneath. Ultimately Elizabeth and Gregory's relationship put the cause at the center of it (heh--and the Centre) very explicitly. They were all about that being the priority and how they would sacrifice anything for it. Gregory's parting words included telling her not to let Philip make her soft, to find some other man like him. That was how he saw himself as her "real" love. He chose to die the way he wanted, the way Elizabeth would have thought was heroic, rather than go to Moscow.

But that also means that Martha is the person who had somebody bucking orders and the Centre to keep her safe. And Martha chose life. Both those factors got Martha to Moscow. If asked Elizabeth would absolutely consider Gregory the hero, but underneath I think she really does, I think, long for the people who care about each other rather than the cause all the time. She brings up Gregory in the context of Philip not shouldering his sacrifice as correctly as she does--she's not complaining or moping about Gregory and he's dead! But is she really just upset that Philip chooses to openly grieve when he should be stoic, or that she didn't choose to do so?

[fivestone]

On 7.5.2016 at 4:10 PM, DrSpaceman73 said:

Still not really clear about what Elizabeth's on related goal is with the Korean woman.  Infiltrating Mary K with Russian spies to get their beauty secrets and behind the scenes info on how to make things big and pink like their Cadillacs.  

BWAHAHAHA... totally laughed out loud. Thanks for that. But yeah, I wondered this too. I like that Elizabeth actually enjoys spending time with her.

Edited May 12, 2016 by fivestone

[VCRTracking]

The scene with Gabriel and Claudia did remind me of a twisted version of Gigi with Maurice Chevalier and Hermione Gingold singing "I Remember it Well".

[Umbelina]

I actually googled how that trick worked, to make the Statue of Liberty disappear, it was driving me a little crazy.  I have to say, pretty dang clever!

[RedheadZombie]

Does anyone else think Pastor Tim looks like Philip in a wig?  They look strangely similar to me, and I'll add in the EST guy.

[izabella]

I wonder if it's just the wig that makes it seem so?

Maybe the FBI will one day confuse Pastor Tim with Philip in disguise and end up gunning him down in the street somehow. 

[heavysnaxx]

On May 6, 2016 at 9:25 AM, whiporee said:

One other thing that's getting overlooked in the Paige thing -- Paige may have wanted her parents to be honest, but it was there choice to let them know they were Russian spies. They could have come up with other lies to cover up, but they went with the truth. That Paige couldn't handle it early isn't on her as much as it is on them. So this idea that Paige is somehow responsible for endangering the family is just another rationalization from Elizabeth -- just another manipulation by a spy working someone over whom they have power. 

Paige didn't ask to be the child of spies. She didn't ask to be recruited. All she asked from her parents was honest answers to their suspicious behavior. She doesn't deserve any of the shit that's been tossed at her. 

I don't see this show as being about family in the same way as it may have been intended. It seems more about using the emotional power of "family" and intimacy to corrupt and/or destroy someone, to use them in a way that violates their humanity. I see Elizabeth a person who -- however it happened -- has no core. There's no "there" there. She is often trying to act like the people around her but she's severely limited. (It's hard for me to watch her with "friends" or asking questions "sensitively" because Keri Russell has really mastered the character who knows how to say the feelings that she doesn't know the meanings of.)  Philip seems to have a slightly greater capacity for empathy, a little more self. Neither seems idealistic, at this stage. They're so, so damaged.

Which makes me feel terrible for them but doesn't mean I think what they do to their children -- particularly Paige -- is any less odious. They chose to bring children into their powder-keg of a life and it seems pretty clear that the motivation was largely because kids would bring a lot of blending-in-ness. As they get older, well, their responsibilities become greater. If the Soviet Union could make a buck on trafficked organs, I suspect Elizabeth would explain to Paige that that piece of her liver will grow back real quick and Philip would bring a stuffed animal to the safe-house where she's comfortably sedated.  

This episode, especially, was very painful to watch because I snapped into seeing how Elizabeth, especially, sees her relationship with her daughter as utterly transactional. Paige has little to no inherent value beyond what she can be used to do. I can't even adequately describe the depth of violation Paige is living with. Let's not forget -- they're STILL gas lighting her.  OF COURSE she told Pastor Tim; people who are very, very scared but not yet completely fucked up reach out to other seemingly safe people. And the only reason Paige isn't already shredded is because the prop stage of her life was relatively benign compared to this indentured servant stage.

This reminds me of a word we heard a lot in that time: totalitarian. This describes the way Paige has been violated by her parents. It's not just that she has to do stuff she doesn't want to do; she also has to simulate intimacy, she has to be a false friend, she has to piss on her own values. That stuff's in her head full-time. And if she doesn't, it's her fault when her family gets hurt.  

[Umbelina]

Quote

They chose to bring children into their powder-keg of a life and it seems pretty clear that the motivation was largely because kids would bring a lot of blending-in-ness.

Well, they were ORDERED to bring children into it.  Again, they are soldiers fighting a war they feel (or perhaps in Philip's case FELT) just, and worthy to fight.  It's not as if they said "hey, let's have a kid or two, that will be fun, even though I don't love you and have my hands full with all of these jobs!"

[izabella]

It's mind-boggling to me what they did as far as the children go.  I could see the fake spy marriage, but adding kids to that goes beyond commitment to a cause or a job.  Now you're committing your children to something YOU took on; either way, the kids will have to deal with the result, good or bad.  It's like the brainwashing, of whatever kind, was strong when they followed orders and had Paige, and it must have been even more so with Henry.  Having the first baby should have brought them to their senses.  Jared killing his family seemed like a wake-up call.

[sistermagpie]

13 minutes ago, heavysnaxx said:

This reminds me of a word we heard a lot in that time: totalitarian. This describes the way Paige has been violated by her parents. It's not just that she has to do stuff she doesn't want to do; she also has to simulate intimacy, she has to be a false friend, she has to piss on her own values. That stuff's in her head full-time. And if she doesn't, it's her fault when her family gets hurt.  

This definitely isn't the way any of their relationships read to me. Their love of Paige and Henry seems totally real to me, never faked. Philip seems ready to fight anybody who tries to use her for their own ends, and Elizabeth struggles with the idea that she should be okay with that, that this is what she's spent her life thinking is the best way to live, but she can't do it because she doesn't actually want to hurt Paige the way she was hurt.  If anybody wanted to take Paige's liver for money they'd do it over his dead body--and Elizabeth's too, probably. They also seem really respectful of who she is independent of them, which is why they told her the truth. That created a situation that was even more dangerous, but that was the reality. Paige did cause problems for herself by telling the Tims (and she didn't bring herself much comfort either, she's realized). She knows her parents created the situation to begin with, but that doesn't change anything.

They didn't grow up in a world where you were protected from scary responsibilities. I think they've actually done remarkably well as parents considering. They were in denial of how this would go down when the kids were small (they both thought the kids would just grow up and have normal lives and never know the truth) but then, Paige is the same way, not understanding the consequences fully until they're falling on her head. (Or not even then.) I doubt anybody in the history of the world has been able to get through life without pissing on the values they had when they were 15. She could, after all, turn them in. That would be true to her "I won't lie" values, but there are sacrifices that come with that she doesn't want to make for obvious reasons. Just as Elizabeth ultimately doesn't want to make the sacrifice of Paige that her own values demand.

[heavysnaxx]

I think my viewing of this show is framed by my work with abused youth. Who often have parents who truly feel love for them, have horrific histories, and feel very, very entitled to do whatever they have to when under stress. It also reminds me of the two little Rosenberg boys. Horribly sad.

Also: I recall Elizabeth discussing whether she wanted children in Season 1, in a flashback. I could be wrong.

[izabella]

22 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

They didn't grow up in a world where you were protected from scary responsibilities. I think they've actually done remarkably well as parents considering. They were in denial of how this would go down when the kids were small (they both thought the kids would just grow up and have normal lives and never know the truth)

Is that true, though?  I thought Elizabeth was all gung-ho to groom the kids to be spies, when the time was right.  She started down that path by taking Paige to the neighborhood where she and Gregory worked, and talked about their activism.  It was Elizabeth's zeal to recruit Paige that started her down the path of telling Paige the truth.  She was adamant that Paige know who she is, the child of committed KGB spies.  Elizabeth had started working Paige, and Philip did not like it.

Edited May 13, 2016 by izabella

[sistermagpie]

11 minutes ago, izabella said:

Is that true, though?  I thought Elizabeth was all gung-ho to groom the kids to be spies, when the time was right. 

I think the pilot made clear that when they had the kids they never intended to make them spies. Elizabeth said at best they would be socialists.

Later when they told her about this program then yes, Elizabeth thought it was a good idea. By then there were other factors at play, though. She wanted to bond with her and didn't want to lose her, plus she had her own mother's "shining example" she thought she had to live up to etc. I wouldn't say her zeal totally started Paige down that path of truth--she was already challenging them and asking questions. But it definitely helped. Still since then she's made decisions that show she does have doubts about it.

[Umbelina]

I really don't understand, in any universe, how waking up in bed and thinking you screwed your wife's friend is somehow worse than having your head bashed in or being strangled to death.  Death is forever, and his death would certainly devastate his family more than this.  People do go on after things like infidelity (which didn't even happen!) 

Dead is dead.

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, heavysnaxx said:

Also: I recall Elizabeth discussing whether she wanted children in Season 1, in a flashback. I could be wrong.

I think it was season 2. She had never wanted to have kids, plus we know she ran off to Gregory right before Paige was born to freak out about the prospect. And she waited to tell Philip about Henry just to tell herself she could choose not to have the baby.

[SusanSunflower]

Quote

This part at least made sense and wasn't out of nowhere.  Elizabeth brought up Gregory in the context of telling Philip "Hey, sometimes we lose agents in this business.  At least you didn't have to see Martha gunned down in the street."  That was a reference to Gergory and how he died.

Gregory knew he was an agent and he was offered assistance in making a clean break, he chose to provoke the police and die as a soldier rather than be ... irrc, exfiltrated and relocated outside his community and separated from his cause ... 

Martha thought she was helping Clark keep the FBI "clean" ... but she had old-fashioned #1 priority loyalty to her husband ... I did expect more of an explosion when Phillip flat out told her they were KGB (erasing any alternative fantasy she might have been clinging onto ... some (any) other "enemy" -- like Cuba or y'know something other than KGB ... China? She worked overtime NOT sweating the detail) 

Elizabeth might have been jealous of Phillip's baby mamma ... a pre-KGB genuine youthful love match, something Elizabeth never had.  Even with Gregory, she was one-up as his handler ... and as someone mentioned, while emergencies might have arisen from time to time, they were "mission" related, not Gregory feeling neglected, being emotionally needy, etc. 

Shitty and out of touch (really unthinkable, imho) for anyone to make any Martha v. Gregory comparisons.   In many ways, for many people, Gregory's death would have been a heroic soldierly "last stand" ... Martha never enlisted in this army, did not volunteer for this battle ... Elizabeth's youthful "true love" experience memory is framed by the "heroic" circumstances of his final act, final sacrifice (spare me) 

Edited June 7, 2017 by SusanSunflower

[Roseanna]

On ‎7‎.‎5‎.‎2016 at 6:41 PM, sistermagpie said:

I didn't even really see it as a brother/sister connection because he was still lying to her. They were never really equals. I thought it was more just that they'd been through a lot with Philip's lies slowly being uncovered and Martha stepping up to handle each one and finally going out with dignity and impressing him with that. So on the one hand there's this terrible guilt at how he used and manipulated her and really ruined her life and took everything from her, but I think there's also a real respect for how she handled it that raises it above mere pity. Which I think is even more threatening to Elizabeth. It's what makes it feel like more to her, or one of the reasons. And I think that also makes him overly defensive of her, even when Elizabeth's trying to be nice about her.

But how much do we need? We saw Arkady call a meeting about getting Martha out with Tatiana and Oleg, then later saw Oleg and Tatiana discussing it, then Oleg coming in to report from someone else that she was on her way. I don't think there were any meetings there at all about Robert's wife, for instance. Probably just the baby.

You made a good summary of how Martha and Philip's relationship developed.  Martha showed astoning inner strength in the end. 

Martha had three options: to commit a suicide, to turn herself to the FBI and spend the rest of the her life in prison or trust in Philip and go to Russia. She chose to live, alone and in a foreign country, but it's up to her to make the best of it.  

I am astonished how many still wonder if Martha is alive in Moscow. The Soviets are no fools - why would anybody help them if they didn't take care of their agents whose cover is broken if it is possible? 

[Roseanna]

On ‎9‎.‎5‎.‎2016 at 4:10 PM, JennyMominFL said:

There was an attempt to establish and Independent Lithuanian state during  WW1, but it failed. 

Not at all. Lithuania, Estonia and Latvia were independent states between the world wars. 

In the secret protocol of Molotov-Ribbentop pact between the Soviet Union Nazi Germany in August 1939 they were settled in the Soviet interest sphere, and in the fall they were pressured to hand over the military bases on their soil. In the summer 1940 the Soviets made an ultimatum and occupied the countries. Then they arranged the elections that had only one list of candidates and the new Parliaments "asked" to be allowed to be join the "family of Soviet republics" -  in the meetings there was Soviet soldiers with rifles!