Cheers - General Discussion

[DoctorAtomic]

Late 70s/early 80s had to be the golden era of guest stars. Martin Mull and Tom Selleck were on!

Burrows has 'only' 129 directing credits, but each one has multiple episodes - 15 on Friends. So he must be over 1000 episodes of tv easy. All the big ones too. Mary Tyler Moore, Laverne & Shirley, etc. 

 

 

[VCRTracking]

I don't know if it was just him but the thing I noticed about James Burrow directed shows is they never had close-ups, especially tight ones. As opposed to Norman Lear produced shows.

[DoctorAtomic]

And Mandy Patinkin in the same episode!

In terms of the camera shots, I'd say the cab shots are. 

 

[DoctorAtomic]

I guess the change in TV between 1978 and 79 was quite a change. The show has a different look. 

[DoctorAtomic]

Short video with some Cheers facts

 

[WendyCR72]

The new streaming home for Cheers is...Peacock. Sort of apropos, as it is NBC-owned, so it's like the series has gone "home", so to speak.

[Bort]

Cheers is actually owned by CBS, not NBC. Any show that was owned by Paramount is a CBS Viacom property now. NBC Universal must have cut a deal to get it onto Peacock.

[WendyCR72]

8 hours ago, kariyaki said:

Cheers is actually owned by CBS, not NBC. Any show that was owned by Paramount is a CBS Viacom property now. NBC Universal must have cut a deal to get it onto Peacock.

Go figure. Thanks for the heads up. Still, as it aired on NBC and is now on Peacock (which is NBC owned - and what I was sloppily referring to, not Cheers, above!), it does still feel like the obvious spot for it.  🙂

[KWalkerInc]

It's also on CBS All Access now.  I don't have that service, but they had a whole story on Entertainment Tonight to promote that it would now be on there (of course they didn't mention it also being on Peacock because ET is produced by Viacom/CBS).

[jeff30189]

My apologies if this has been asked and answered, or if I am not posting this in the right location, but I need the collective help of Cheers' experts.

I am trying to locate the episode in which Cliff delivers the mail to a series of apartments that are all in close indoor proximity to each other.   After he finishes and walks out of view, all of the tenants come out of their homes in unison to exchange their mail, with the obvious implication that all of it had been delivered to the incorrect address.    I don't think there is any dialogue.  

Can anyone give me the season and episode number, and god forbid you have it attach that scene clip?    Been searching Youtube and no luck. 

Thank you. 

[Bort]

28 minutes ago, jeff30189 said:

I am trying to locate the episode in which Cliff delivers the mail to a series of apartments that are all in close indoor proximity to each other.   After he finishes and walks out of view, all of the tenants come out of their homes in unison to exchange their mail, with the obvious implication that all of it had been delivered to the incorrect address.    I don't think there is any dialogue.  

Season 5, episode 24, “Cheers: The Motion Picture”

[jason88cubs]

Best show ever

[JTMacc99]

For reasons I don't ever remember right now, I found myself watching some clips of "Norm!" greetings and this one showed up in the queue. 

Two for real laugh out loud moments in the two minutes. The first one that absolutely killed me was the answer to "Do you make a drink for failures here at Cheers?" Heh. And the second one is the point of the clip.

 

[DoctorAtomic]

They built the episode around the baby saying Norm and had to figure out how to back the setup out of it. 

[WearyTraveler]

Love this series and just finished a full re-watch. Holds up well, except for two fight scenes where Sam actually slaps women (one with Diane where they slap each other several times, and one with Rebecca where she is drunk at Woody's in-laws because she thought she was going to be a guest/date of Woody's father in law and ended up being the bartender).  I don't think those scenes would be very well received in current times.

I've seen it mentioned several times that Sam and Diane were the first TV couple to use the "will they?/won't they?" device, but this is not true.  There are several examples of this trope (also known as Unresolved Sexual Tension) in earlier TV shows:

• I Dream of Jeannie (1965): Jeannie & Major Nelson
• Get Smart (1965): Maxwell & #99 (Fun Cheers related fact: Barbara Feldon, who played #99 and was a popular sex symbol of the 60s because of this role, played the Valentine mystery date that Sam meets in a cabin every year in the episode where they don't have sex because Sam threw his back out and they talk about getting older)
• Star Trek: The Original Series (1966): Captain Kirk & Yeoman Janice Rand
• Mork & Mindy (1978): Mork & Mindy
• Remington Steele (1982): Remington Steele & Laura Holt

Those are ones that I remember off the top of my head, but I'm sure there are others.  What had not been invented/created at the time these shows aired was the term "TV Trope".  So the trope itself did not have a name, but it existed.

Edited September 13, 2021 by WearyTraveler

[DoctorAtomic]

I don't think anyone should be slapping anybody, but the Sam and Diane slapping seemed more screwball inspired than actually people in the workplace assaulting one another. 

[WearyTraveler]

32 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I don't think anyone should be slapping anybody, but the Sam and Diane slapping seemed more screwball inspired than actually people in the workplace assaulting one another. 

That's precisely why I think it would not be well received in this day and age.  By making it "funny", they are sort of diminishing the impact.  I didn't remember this scene when I started my re-watch and Sam slapping Diane made me actually jump back.  I get what they were trying to do and they did manage to make me smile when the physical comedy turned to them pulling each other's noses. But, a slap in the face is just so much more serious.  And this was probably not the only show to trivialise it by making it a "funny" thing.

In a drama it's different because when we see face-slapping of any kind (female to male, male to female, female to female, male to male, etc.), the characters react in what is (generally speaking) a realistic way according to the character's traits, personalities, backstory, etc.  So, an abused spouse is traumatized but keeps it secret, an assertive romantic partners breaks it off and calls the police, etc.; there are consequences to such behavior.  Not so in a comedy, and that's what makes it tricky.  The characters don't suffer any consequences for it and that can be interpreted as condoning the behavior, or trivialising a serious issue.

If a TV comedy today had a tall, ex-athlete, strong male character face-slap a shorter, wafer-thin, smaller female character, the social media storm would be so epic the show would be cancelled pretty soon after that, I'd guess.

_______________

In other unrelated experiences:  I was a college student in Wellesley, MA when the finale aired, and I actually was in the audience, outside the "original" location in Boston during the finale.  So, I got to watch it in the big screens they had set up for the occasion outside the bar.  It was quite an experience. I don't think many shows before them had done a finale live viewing party like that.

Edited September 13, 2021 by WearyTraveler

[AgathaC]

It’s been a couple of years since I watched that episode, but as I remember, while it was played for laughs, there was also a serious undercurrent. The whole thing didn’t feel completely like a screwball fight. There was nastiness underneath (it ended with a break-up, after all). While I think that scene is brilliantly done by the actors, it’s one I just can’t bring myself to watch often. It just feels painful.

I actually got a chill at the part where Diane expresses hurt/anger that Sam hit her.

Sam: Not hard.

Diane: What does that mean, “Not hard”?

Sam: It means not as hard as I wanted to.

At which point she (wisely) decides to leave.

The negative emotions were just palpable.

I remember reading somewhere where there was a discussion of that scene’s filming and they said you could hear a pin drop on that set. It was pretty intense.

[Egg McMuffin]

I thought that scene was tough to watch, even back in the 1980s. IIRC, Diane slapped Sam first, which I think the writers did to make it more acceptable for Sam to slap back.

And it’s a VERY nasty breakup scene, even without the slapping. The actors were very, very good - I’ll give them that.

[WearyTraveler]

It was weird because Diane slaps him first and he slaps her back in like a nanosecond, as if it were a reflex reaction. She slaps him again twice, IIRC, and both times he slaps her back, and that's when they turn to the nose pulling which was clearly intended to be the funny part as it makes them progressively get lower and lower until they end up on the floor.

After that is when they had the conversation and she decides to leave.  It's uncomfortable because it's a comedy and we sort of want to laugh but the face-slapping is not a laughing matter, but the nose pulling totally is.

I don't know, it was kind of heavy for the type of comedy that Cheers had been up to that point

[WearyTraveler]

Just watched a clip on YouTube and there are like 5 or 6 reciprocal slaps. One time, after Diane tells Sam not to slap her, he's actually the one to slap first

[WearyTraveler]

I couldn't fine one clip with the entire sequence, but I was able to find two clips that overlap. You can see how the argument started, the slaps and the nose pulling in the first one. The second one has the nose pulling and the conversation that came after, where they talk about how hard the slapping was

 

[AgathaC]

Thank you for posting those, WearyTraveler! It’s still hard to watch. One of the things I love about Cheers (at least in the early years) is that I feel like they did such a good job of weaving in the occasional dramatic moments without it feeling “very special episode”-ish. (Mileage may vary, of course.)

The show became more strictly comedy later on, but those first two years had some great examples of blended style. The episodes where Diane’s cat dies and when Sam loses his lucky bottle cap come immediately to mind. For me, anyway, the back-and-forth felt very natural.

Then, of course, they were capable of scenes like what’s posted above. The foundation had been laid in lead-up episodes so it didn’t come out of nowhere but it still just felt painful. They did a good job. Maybe even too good. Ouch.

[Egg McMuffin]

I loved that the early years weren’t afraid to show heart. The episode “Coach’s Daughter”, for example, or season four’s “Dark Imaginings” (Sam starts to feel old compared to Woody and the episode ends with him contemplating his mortality).

[jason88cubs]

best show ever

[StarBrand]

It really amazes me that the first season had such awful ratings, it could have gotten cancelled. But the network head stuck with it, along with some other shows that weren't getting any viewers (I think Hill Street Blues did just as bad its first season), and the show helped NBC become the powerhouse network of the 80s. It was still getting strong ratings in its final season.   If Dansen hadn't decided he'd had enough, it could have gone on even longer.

Long's departure turned out to be a blessing in disguise. The Diane and Sam story really had played out, and the writers more or less admitted they'd let that relationship become the driver of the show. When Shelly left, they conentrated more on the original concept-the Cheers bar and the people that hung out there. It became more of an ensemble. Notice the difference in the opening credits the first five seasons-Long and Dansen's names are listed together-signifying how much the show focused on them-then afterwards, where names are listed individually for the rest of the series.

[StarBrand]

The season one episode where Sam lends a friend his lucky bottle cap was an early example of how this show could pull off nice character moments. I liked the fact Sam trusted Diane with the story of it, of how that bottle cap of his  last drink kept him from falling off the wagon, and it was often very difficult for him to do that.  Then right after that admitting that he really needed it back, because his urge to drink was getting worse since he'd lent it away.

And then he gets the phone call where he finds out his friend lost it weeks ago. Having just heard the story, Diane knows just how bad that news is to Sam, and is almost desparate to keep him from giving in and pouring a drink for himself.  She watches helplessly as Sam pours himself a glass. And stands there and looks at it for what feels like eternity, before finally doing the glass slide trick he'd done at the beginning of the episode.  The audience claps almost in relief.

It was a very thoughtful scene depicting how difficult it is for a recovering addict to stay on the path of sobriety, where one bad day, or decision, can have them standing on the edge of the abyss, and someone like Diane has to try and pull them back.

Ironically enough, Diane is the reason he relapses two seasons later.  And at that time we also get a glimpse that Drunk Sam was not entirely fun to be around...

[StarBrand]

More random thoughts;

How difficult must it have been for the writers to come up with Norm-isms for almost every episode. I wonder how much input Wednt had with those lines.  I also liked how every now and then, they'd throw a curve ball-like when Norm enters the bar after Rebecca has taken over, and the "new" crowd doesn't respond to him at all. And most of all, this one. The reaction shots of everyone are priceless...

[cpcathy]

The writers actually hated having to come up with the cold opens, it became drudgery to them.

[jason88cubs]

https://people.com/tv/kirstie-alley-dead/

so sad

[SomeTameGazelle]

56 minutes ago, jason88cubs said:

https://people.com/tv/kirstie-alley-dead/

so sad

I'm trying to remember an episode where I have a vivid recollection that Kirstie's delivery of a line made me laugh very hard, but I can't remember many details at all. For one thing I have always remembered it as being about Robin Colcord but it's possible it was actually Evan Drake. The setup was some kind of description of how badly things were going in her pursuit of whichever man it was, presumably because she had a rival, because her reaction was to assert "I'm winning!" It's been many years since I saw it but I recall it as a highlight for the character. 

[jason88cubs]

11 minutes ago, SomeTameGazelle said:

I'm trying to remember an episode where I have a vivid recollection that Kirstie's delivery of a line made me laugh very hard, but I can't remember many details at all. For one thing I have always remembered it as being about Robin Colcord but it's possible it was actually Evan Drake. The setup was some kind of description of how badly things were going in her pursuit of whichever man it was, presumably because she had a rival, because her reaction was to assert "I'm winning!" It's been many years since I saw it but I recall it as a highlight for the character. 

I think it may have been in the storyline where Colcord had Rebecca and another girl he wanted

[steelyis]

1 hour ago, jason88cubs said:

https://people.com/tv/kirstie-alley-dead/

so sad

I know Kristie was problematic these last few years, but it hurts to lose her. I hope she didn't suffer before the end. I really do.

[SomeTameGazelle]

1 hour ago, jason88cubs said:

I think it may have been in the storyline where Colcord had Rebecca and another girl he wanted

Thanks. I think that means it must be from the 2-parter Finally! in season 8.

[WendyCR72]

3 hours ago, jason88cubs said:

https://people.com/tv/kirstie-alley-dead/

so sad

Wow. This sort of shocks me. May she RIP.

[Chit Chat]

10 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

Wow. This sort of shocks me. May she RIP.

It was jarring to see the headline last night, especially since we didn't know she was sick.  RIP, Kirstie.  

[Cobb Salad]

On 10/19/2022 at 10:08 PM, StarBrand said:

It really amazes me that the first season had such awful ratings, it could have gotten cancelled. But the network head stuck with it, along with some other shows that weren't getting any viewers (I think Hill Street Blues did just as bad its first season), and the show helped NBC become the powerhouse network of the 80s. It was still getting strong ratings in its final season.   If Dansen hadn't decided he'd had enough, it could have gone on even longer.

IIRC NBC in the early 80s wasn’t exactly a ratings powerhouse.  It was probably fortunate for shows like Cheers and Hill Street Blues that NBC did stick with them as it was certainly easier to go at least another season or two with them rather than try with something brand new.  This was about the same time of Manimal which didn’t last long so who knows what other dogs they would have shown instead of Cheers.  

15 hours ago, jason88cubs said:

https://people.com/tv/kirstie-alley-dead/

so sad

I was surprised to see this earlier today.  At first I thought it was a joke then I saw the source.  The article said she didn’t publicize her illness so for all of us it came out of the blue.  So sad.  ☹️.  She gave new life to Cheers and help steer it into a new direction for several years.  Not that easy when you consider how long the show had been on the air by the time she joined. 

[Bort]

Yeah, if Kirstie as Rebecca hadn’t caught on, I think Cheers would’ve been axed that year. She really gets a lot of credit for the show being successful going in a new direction. Writers too, since they realized a new direction was better than trying to re-create the same Diane dynamic.

[AgathaC]

Absolutely. I’m more of a “Diane years girl” (especially the first two), but there’s no denying the character of Rebecca, as written and performed, breathed new life into the show. The Cheers team really could teach a master class in how to sustain a series through major cast changes.

Whenever I think of Rebecca, I remember how she would call Robin (it was him, wasn’t it?) her “sweet baby.” For some reason, that absolutely used to slay my dad, to the point where he took to imitating it whenever he wanted to comfort us by cracking us up.

[jason88cubs]

2 hours ago, AgathaC said:

Absolutely. I’m more of a “Diane years girl” (especially the first two), but there’s no denying the character of Rebecca, as written and performed, breathed new life into the show. The Cheers team really could teach a master class in how to sustain a series through major cast changes.

Whenever I think of Rebecca, I remember how she would call Robin (it was him, wasn’t it?) her “sweet baby.” For some reason, that absolutely used to slay my dad, to the point where he took to imitating it whenever he wanted to comfort us by cracking us up.

Think about what Cheers did

Lost Coach, replaced with Woody

Lose Diane, replace with Rebecca

Also added Fraiser and Lillith which even made show stronger

Added Kelly as a recurring character

[JAYJAY1979]

Cheers as a show could successfully weather casting changes because the setting was a bar..where people come and go.  

I remember the show at first tried to recreate the Sam/Diane vibe with Rebecca..when she came on.  However by the end of her debut season...the show wisely kept Sam/Rebecca as friendly..and even had Carla and Rebecca get along...for Carla that is.

[AgathaC]

Hubby, Stepson and I are doing a full-series Cheers watch right now and, last night, we hit I’ll Be Seeing You (S2 finale). I hadn’t watched it in a long time and was reminded why. It’s just so painful. Incredibly well-done, but almost too well-done.

Sam is so cold and angry. Diane is so deflated and resigned and just beyond caring about anything anymore. They both share some blame (she is condescending), but having been in similar situations, I can’t help but empathize with Diane. And I think Shelley was particularly strong. I know she became a punchline, but she was just incredible as Diane, able to bounce between comedy and drama without losing the through line.

One part I’d forgotten about but that kind of sickened me was when Sam laid down the law about Diane letting Semenko paint her. He struts off as the guys all applaud him. Just - Ugh. Again, I hurt for Diane in that moment. She was far from perfect, but the fact that she often seemed so alone makes me more sympathetic.

[Egg McMuffin]

That season 2 finale is raw and ugly. I find it difficult to watch.

Shelley Long is a marvel. It’s fun to rewatch the series just to see how she delivers a line or to see the expressions on her face. When Diane offers her condolences to Sam on Coach’s passing in the season 4 premiere, she’s smiling as she remembers him, but her eyes are so sad. Or in the season 5 finale when Sam is basically breaking up with her as she goes off to write her book, and she looks so dismayed as he outlines the reasons they may not wind up together. Long is one of the finest actresses I’ve seen on TV.

Edited March 1, 2023 by Egg McMuffin

[Crs97]

I find it hard to watch the show after hearing how badly they treated her.  She was a wonder.

[AgathaC]

12 hours ago, Crs97 said:

I find it hard to watch the show after hearing how badly they treated her.  She was a wonder.

I agree. I’m sure she was annoying and aggravating in some ways (I’ve known people who resemble descriptions of her), but it sounds like her goal was always putting out the best product possible. And as a few people have said, she didn’t have a mean bone in her body. She meant well, she could just be frustrating.

In more recent years, it’s nice to see people like Ken Levine stand up for her and Ted Danson reflect a different attitude. Kelsey Grammer has made some unfair claims (like continuing the myth that she tried to get him fired), but has also owned some of his own part in things.

A story that’s always stuck out for me was from KG. He said he really bonded with the others at first through bitching about SL. One day he said something and Nick Colasanto turned, looked at him, and very firmly but calmly said, “She’s not a bitch, Kelsey.” He respected NC too much to argue, but thought “of course she is!” Years later, reflecting on everything, he said he realized NC was right.

Sad. And no wonder she left after her contract was up. I recall watching an E! True Hollywood Story (or similar series) about Cheers. When it got to the part about SL leaving, my mom said “of course she left. Who wouldn’t?” At the time, I had been well-versed in the jokes and stories about SL being a problem and bought it. That was the first time I thought — “huh. Maybe there’s more to that.” Cue a deep dive into Cheers’s backstage history and my first real watching of S1-5.

[FormerMod-a1]

It came off to me as if they were the "cool kids" and she was the "stick in the mud". I mean how dare she be "professional" and "serious", etc.  She should "loosen up", etc.   It's fine if you don't gel, you don't need to hang out with your coworkers, but they should have been more polite and civil.  They acted like high schoolers, imo (from what I remember learning/hearing about it). 

[Crs97]

It also broke my heart when she was interviewed about leaving and was asked whom she would miss.  She choked up a little and said she missed Nick.

[Bort]

I wonder if Shelley would’ve stuck around if Nick hadn’t died. He seemed to really be what kept the rest of the cast in check and without him, gone was her only life preserver. Of course she ran like the wind, it was her only recourse. 

[Egg McMuffin]

James Burrows said that Shelley’s acting process involved a LOT of discussion about her character’s motivations. I think she had the most difficult role (making this character who was annoying on paper likable) and you can’t argue with the end results on the screen. But Burrows said that he wished he and the other producers had reined in her process early on, because it wound up frustrating the other cast members and they turned against her.

[AgathaC]

That falls in line with things I’d heard/read. Her process could be very frustrating. It’s too bad it wasn’t handled better.

At the same time, judging by stories of later Cheers, the set resembled a frat house with little-to-no discipline. Roger Rees talked about how frustrating he and Bebe Neuwirth (theater-trained pros) found it.

I once read or heard an interview with Kate Mulgrew where she talked about her short stint on the show. She knew Kelsey already and had heard quite a few stories about Shelley, but she ended up really respecting and appreciating her. For one thing, she said, there was already a laxness and aversion to rehearsal. As a guest, you weren’t as solid in your part, but didn’t really feel you could speak up. But Shelley would step forward and ask for another run at a scene, giving guest stars a little more rehearsal time.