S04.E18: Eleven-Fifty-Nine

[nksarmi]

This is his expression between when Laurel says she knows she's not the love of his live  and that he will always be hers.

 

 

Notice how his mouth twitches and a frown almost surfaces.  Looks worried to me, lol. 

 

Holy cow that's bad.  I think I was too pissed, confused, etc... at the moment she was saying that to really look at Oliver.  But I also think my expression might have matched his lol.

[dtissagirl]

Steve's Involuntary Constipated Face in scenes with KC is actually a more serious disease than KC's Involuntary NOTP face when she has to mention/be near O/F.

[bijoux]

I was actually really impressed that he managed to get across touched when he saw the photo.

[nksarmi]

It's especially embarrassing when you realize that she thought she was going to be okay and pull through. So what did she think would happen once she made a full recovery? Yikes. Awkward. I know we're not supposed to think about those things because she's dead now but I can't help it. I do. 

 

Edit: Or what @apinknightmare said. Doh! I didn't read before I posted. 

 

Ok maybe she was telling him because she didn't think they'd see each other all that much anymore and she was - in fact - going to take the DA job even though she had previously said that the only time she felt alive was when she was in the field with them?

 

Or maybe as someone suggested several pages ago she was just high on the drugs they gave her for surgery.

[NumberCruncher]

I'm starting to think they really did let KC have her O/L head canon in her final moments but they also didn't want it to undercut Olicity so they threw in the mention of Felicity and being happy for them...and it was just all a big mess instead.

It's fine if they wanted to let her have her O/L head canon but there were better ways of doing it. All she needed to say was "I know I'm not the love of your life, but you've always been mine" and left it at that. They didn't need to inject Felicity/Olicity in it at all. Not that it would have made the whole ridiculousness of the situation disappear, but at least it wouldn't come off that she was cheerleading Oliver to be with another woman on her deathbed. I truly need to know whether it was Marc or Keto who wrote that dialogue. If it was Keto, well, she probably didn't realize how stupid it sounded. If it was Marc, I wouldn't put it past him to have intentionally put it in there to piss people off because that's what he does.

[Sakura12]

He looks terrified in that pic. Lol 

 

Is that what SA was trying to convey? Because I know he can look at friend with a softer look in his eyes that is not love with Sara/CL. I wonder if that's a character choice? Because from his facial reactions he looks in love with Felicity, that he deeply cares about Sara and is extremely uncomfortable around Laurel. 

Edited April 8, 2016 by Sakura12

[Cekrypton1]

I really loved the character beat of Darhk trying to explain away that he figured out Oliver was GA WITHOUT Andy's help. Such a nice little moment showing that he feels he always is the smartest guy in the room.

If they get to a season six, the flashbacks should just be season one scenes with Tommy, Moira, and Laurel.

[tangerine95]

I feel like the whole love declaration from Laurel was a last minute addition they did because they didn't care much about Laurel's last scene and how she comes off in it and decided to go with what KC wanted for so long.But once they did that, they weren't going to let it be unclear that Oliver does not feel the same so they had her mention Felicity.Plus SA always looks uncomfortable in scenes with Laurel and plays Oliver as uncomfortable with other women hitting on him so that made it worse and even more hilarious. I don't think they were writing Laurel and Oliver's previous interactions with her considering him the love of her life and not being over him in mind.But KC was for sure playing it that way though.I just don't understand why she would want Laurel to look so pathetic.The writers imo don't care how she looks which was made clear to me most recently by the whole thing with Laurel resurrecting Sara and looking insane but KC or at least that one writer that seems to like Laurel should want her to come off better than as someone pining for the guy who cheated on her with her sister among many others and who knocked up her friend and is now totally in love with someone else.

[bijoux]

I really loved the character beat of Darhk trying to explain away that he figured out Oliver was GA WITHOUT Andy's help. Such a nice little moment showing that he feels he always is the smartest guy in the room.

 

I think he was pointing to Malcolm, saying it wasn't HIM who told him, but Andy.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

Arrow Pulls Out The Big Guns
Apparently, being put in prison isn't enough to shut Damien Darhk down completely.

[NumberCruncher]

I feel like the whole love declaration from Laurel was a last minute addition they did because they didn't care much about Laurel's last scene and how she comes off in it and decided to go with what KC wanted for so long. But once they did that, they weren't going to let it be unclear that Oliver does not feel the same so they had her mention Felicity.

Not trying to be argumentative or anything but they really didn't need to clarify. Just two episodes ago Oliver was pleading with Felicity to marry him. Laurel even stated that Oliver wasn't in love with her even though she was. They didn't need to bring the O/F relationship into it at all.

I said it in my first post in this thread, I really do wonder if the writers just dislike this character. I feel like something happened between S1 and S2 that caused the wheels to come off because from the addiction storyline on, they didn't bother even trying to make her look sympathetic. Once they finally did seem to try at the beginning of this season, they just reverted right back to the sloppy writing they gave her here.

Edited April 8, 2016 by NumberCruncher

[SonofaBiscuit]

Someone tells you "I know that I'm not the love of your life...but you're the love of mine" and the response is furrowed eyebrows and flaring nostrils?  Magic 8-ball says: OUTLOOK NOT SO GOOD.

[tangerine95]

I don't think they did need to clarify but I feel like they thought they did.I mean anytime Laurel and Oliver have a scene you get fans and even reviewers talking about them rebuilding the romantic relationship between them.It's like the comic canon thing just makes people ignore everything they know about how TV romances work and refuse to believe the show doesn't intend to go back there.So I think that's why most of their conversations and this one included and Felicity and how much Oliver loves Felicity mention.I think they really want it very clear that Oliver doesn't feel the same and they're not exactly known for being subtle.

And I mean imo saying she's glad Oliver found Felicity is way less out of place than suddenly telling him he will always be the love of her life.The whole idea of her having her final moments with Oliver instead of like her dad or at least Thea was horrible.Once they decided that was happening, judging by their history of writing Laurel and Oliver, there was little chance that scene wasn't going to be cringeworthy.

[bijoux]

You know who also might have made a good candidate for Laurel's final goodbye? Dig. Who the show tells me has grown closer with Laurel and some of his actions did result in Darhk getting the idol back. So there's a lot of meaty stuff there.

[Midnight Lullaby]

Anyone would have made a better candidate that the guy who couldn't even bring himself to tell her a "we love you" after she almost died. Oliver slowly became the character on the team who cared less about her. Not sure if it was the writing or the acting from SA or a combination of both but it happened.

[ComicFan777]

I think having Laurel's last scene to be with Lance would have moved me to tears.  Lance would have killed it.

Edited April 8, 2016 by ComicFan777

[catrox14]

I thought SA played Oliver's reaction perfectly.  Stunned silence and confusion. I mean what is Oliver supposed to say to that? 

 

TMI time:

 

I actually had a somewhat similar situation happen to me. 

 

I knew a guy for years, who always had a thing for me, who I made clear with him, I did not reciprocate those feelings. We never dated, never slept together nothing. He insisted on staying friends. So I did so with some reluctance because I didn't want him to think he had a chance if we were friends. He met a woman he was much more suited to be with and they had a happy life. He started messaging me out of the blue and would tell me he wished we had gotten together. And I was, "Dude...no. Why are you saying these things to me. You're married!" He said, "I'm sorry. I'm drunk" I said, "I want to be your friend but you can't drunk message me and say these things." He apologized then sent me an email saying he had been diagnosed with cancer and was dying.  I was like "Well, fuck me" . I felt awful for being honest with him but I wasn't comfortable with what he was saying.  I emailed him back and told him he was a good man and I was happy he found happiness and to keep posted on his situation.

 

I didn't hear anything for a long time...didn't get any emails returned. So I googled his name, and he had died 6 months before and I never knew.  I didn't feel comforted by what he told me. I felt guilty because I didn't feel the way he did. But I think he was trying to say goodbye to me and I guess he thought he had things to say. But to this day, it bothers me.

 

Oliver knew he hurt Laurel. He didn't try to keep going back to her. He moved on. And she moved on. So he thought. I may be projecting but now I suspect Oliver will feel guilty for no longer loving Laurel as a romantic partner.  Blech

 

Back to headcanon that Laurel was seeing Ghost!Tommy

[bijoux]

I think having Laurel's last scene to be with Lance would have moved me to tears. Lance would have killed it.

True, but I actually get why they went this way. Life and death are cruel bitches and wait for no one. Lance was sadly once more on the receiving end of it.

[Delphi]

Upon rewatch my thoughts haven't really changed but I really do love how Thea continues to give absolutely zero fucks about that pesky no killing rule. She just immediately tries to kill the enemy, whether it's Vandal Savage or Darhk.

I think for the finale this year I really want Oliver to kill Darhk. Thea to kill Malcolm and Dig to kill Andy. A complete trifecta of killing. Hell, have Felicity aND Quinton murder some folks to. Blood must have blood.

[catrox14]

 

Do you think we will see him saying it to her privately in that "promise" scene later on?

 

Oh gods.  They better not do that, because they'll fan the shipper wars even in death.  Just oh boy. No. 

 

There is no requirement for Oliver to say her loves her, and there is no requirement for him TO love her if he no longer does.

 

I sure as fuck don't  want to see Oliver tell Laurel he loves her in private when he didn't say it to her in front of Felicity. Because then we'll get 'Look Oliver really DID love Laurel all along and Felicity was the interloper." OR  Oliver only said it because Felicity dumped him.  If can't and shouldn't apologize for her not being the love of his life and if he tells her he loves her as a friend...that's pointless. Seems to me Oliver will come out looking like a dick either way.  So, to me no. He can't say it at all at this point.  They better just let that sleeping dog lie in the bed they made...(Now that's a tortured metaphor...)

[hogwash]

I thought SA played Oliver's reaction perfectly.  Stunned silence and confusion. I mean what is Oliver supposed to say to that? 

 

I understand if Oliver felt guilty. She was still (still??) in love with him and he had to be convinced be still be friends with her. It's like the Flarrowverse doesn't want him to stop being a dick to her. Even if he's not doing it on purpose anymore. 

[lemotomato]

I sure as fuck don't  want to see Oliver tell Laurel he loves her in private when he didn't say it to her in front of Felicity. Because then we'll get 'Look Oliver really DID love Laurel all along and Felicity was the interloper." OR  Oliver only said it because Felicity dumped him.  If can't and shouldn't apologize for her not being the love of his life and if he tells her he loves her as a friend...that's pointless. Seems to me Oliver will come out looking like a dick either way.  So, to me no. He can't say it at all at this point.  They better just let that sleeping dog lie in the bed they made...(Now that's a tortured metaphor...)

But imagine the face SA would make if he had to say it! 

[bijoux]

But imagine the face SA would make if he had to say it! 

Now you're making me want it to happen just to enjoy the trainwreck.

[catrox14]

I understand if Oliver felt guilty. She was still (still??) in love with him and he had to be convinced be still be friends with her. It's like the Flarrowverse doesn't want him to stop being a dick to her. Even if he's not doing it on purpose anymore. 

 

But he shouldn't feel guilty for no longer loving someone. Especially when his behavior clearly matched his lack of feelings. He didn't play head games with her. Didn't tease they might get together. Nothing after their first ill fated tryst in s1 that Tommy saw.

 

Oliver didn't get with Sara to punish or hurt Laurel. It was arguably ill-advised. He really never did anything to purposefully hurt Laurel once they made their peace with each other.

 

It's not his fault that he moved on and she didn't. And he had NO idea. This was totally out of the blue from Oliver's perspective. 

[looptab]

Do you think we will see him saying it to her privately in that "promise" scene later on?

Where is this on the board? I can't find it o.O

 

But imagine the face SA would make if he had to say it! 

The poor man 

has to kiss her next ep.

Let's not ask too much of him!

[apinknightmare]

I hope we don't find out during some flashbacks that there was more to them after Tommy died than we thought.

Edited April 8, 2016 by apinknightmare

[ComicFan777]

Where is this on the board? I can't find it o.O

 

 

I actually originally posed it, but wanted to un-say it because I really didn't want it in the universe...

I cringed at myself for even thinking that the writers might do it.

Edited April 8, 2016 by ComicFan777

[AyChihuahua]

The poor man 

has to kiss her next ep.

Let's not ask too much of him!

This is going to be the best thing this season. The mansion kiss is one of my all-time faves. Not only are they both making very sure to leave room for the Holy Ghost and all his friends between their pelvises, SA has NO IDEA WHAT TO DO WITH HIS HANDS. I die laughing every time I see it.

[Sakura12]

But he shouldn't feel guilty for no longer loving someone. Especially when his behavior clearly matched his lack of feelings. He didn't play head games with her. Didn't tease they might get together. Nothing after their first ill fated tryst in s1 that Tommy saw.

 

 

Didn't he turn her down when she tried to kiss him in S2? 

[lemotomato]

I hope we don't find out during some flashbacks that there was more to them after Tommy died than we thought.

I dunno... whatever happened between them, he spent a good chunk of that summer on a desolate island thousands of miles away while she dealt with the fallout alone. So how much could it have meant to him?

[Sakura12]

This is going to be the best thing this season. The mansion kiss is one of my all-time faves. Not only are they both making very sure to leave room for the Holy Ghost and all his friends between their pelvises, SA has NO IDEA WHAT TO DO WITH HIS HANDS. I die laughing every time I see it.

 

The kissing between them is awkward. If the camera person and director see the actors are sticking their asses out so their pelvis' don't touch, maybe shoot from the chest up?:

Edited April 8, 2016 by Sakura12

[catrox14]

I actually originally posed it, but wanted to un-say it because I really didn't want it in the universe...

I cringed at myself for even thinking that the writers might do it.

 

Proof positive that NOTHING gets deleted from the internet...Gods. I am soooo screwed.

Didn't he turn her down when she tried to kiss him in S2? 

 

I don't remember that happening at all. I probably blocked it out...LOL but I believe you!

[Midnight Lullaby]

This is going to be the best thing this season. The mansion kiss is one of my all-time faves. Not only are they both making very sure to leave room for the Holy Ghost and all his friends between their pelvises, SA has NO IDEA WHAT TO DO WITH HIS HANDS. I die laughing every time I see it.

I don't know if that or his face when she hugged him in the lair in late season 2 is the best unintentionally funny moment of the show. That man can't do it.

[bijoux]

Didn't he turn her down when she tried to kiss him in S2? 

 

He did and he made it very clear to her it was not happening.

 

I dunno... whatever happened between them, he spent a good chunk of that summer on a desolate island thousands of miles away while she dealt with the fallout alone. So how much could it have meant to him?

 

If something actually did happen and he split AFTER it, it would be even more hilarious. 

[catrox14]

I hope we don't find out during some flashbacks that there was more to them after Tommy died than we thought.

 

Oh gods.  I didn't even think about that.  Fuck. Well they have taken Oliver down to basically being the literal worst...Why not do this for the killshot.  Sometimes I think the writers really hate Oliver more than any character LOL.

[hogwash]

But he shouldn't feel guilty for no longer loving someone. Especially when his behavior clearly matched his lack of feelings. He didn't play head games with her. Didn't tease they might get together. Nothing after their first ill fated tryst in s1 that Tommy saw.

 

Oliver didn't get with Sara to punish or hurt Laurel. It was arguably ill-advised. He really never did anything to purposefully hurt Laurel once they made their peace with each other.

 

It's not his fault that he moved on and she didn't. And he had NO idea. This was totally out of the blue from Oliver's perspective. 

 

Yeah, he's not that person anymore. But I was responding more to the entire comment where it's the object of the unrequited feelings has no reason to feel bad about not reciprocating but does anyway because of the circumstances. 

[Sakura12]

Proof positive that NOTHING gets deleted from the internet...Gods. I am soooo screwed.

 

I don't remember that happening at all. I probably blocked it out...LOL but I believe you!

 

I think it was after he found out Sara was the Canary in a Black costume. 

 

I still can't believe that Laurel thinks Oliver is love of her life. Girl, he choose your sister twice over you. That alone should've made her want nothing to do with him.  

[apinknightmare]

I dunno... whatever happened between them, he spent a good chunk of that summer on a desolate island thousands of miles away while she dealt with the fallout alone. So how much could it have meant to him?

 

I meant more along the lines of some kind of retcon where we see that they tried again after their discussion at the beginning of S2. I don't *think* the show will go there, it was just a very, very small niggle in the back of my mind 

based on the kiss in the promo for the next ep. Which is probably around the time of Tommy's death, before Oliver went back to Lian Yu and therefore nothing to worry about.

[catrox14]

 

I still can't believe that Laurel thinks Oliver is love of her life. Girl, he choose your sister twice over you. That alone should've made her want nothing to do with him.

 

Maybe she just can't admit she was wrong about Oliver. I mean that would be in character for Laurel to not admit when she's wrong. 

[AyChihuahua]

I don't know if that or his face when she hugged him in the lair in late season 2 is the best unintentionally funny moment of the show. That man can't do it.

One of my favorite gifs ever. SA's basically internally screaming "COOTIESCOOTIESOMGDON'TLETTHECOOTIESONME!!!"

[looptab]

I actually originally posed it, but wanted to un-say it because I really didn't want it in the universe...

I cringed at myself for even thinking that the writers might do it.

I forgive you. LOL

 

I meant more along the lines of some kind of retcon where we see that they tried again after their discussion at the beginning of S2. I don't *think* the show will go there, it was just a very, very small niggle in the back of my mind 

based on the kiss in the promo for the next ep. Which is probably around the time of Tommy's death, before Oliver went back to Lian Yu and therefore nothing to worry about.

Yeah, if they want they could retcon it making it as if they tried to be together after Tommy died, but then it was too much for Oliver and he went to Lian Yu. Hope not.

But it's the only "acceptable" timeframe for that kiss.

 

[AyChihuahua]

Yeah, if they want they could retcon it making it as if they tried to be together after Tommy died, but then it was too much for Oliver and he went to Lian Yu. Hope not.

But it's the only "acceptable" timeframe for that kiss.

 

I think that could work, bc he told Sara in 2.4 (or thereabouts) that he and LL tried to get back together, but "it was too much." Too much meaning INCLUDING Tommy's death, so this happening after that makes sense to me.

Edited April 8, 2016 by AyChihuahua

[catrox14]

I forgive you. LOL

 

Yeah, if they want they could retcon it making it as if they tried to be together after Tommy died, but then it was too much for Oliver and he went to Lian Yu. Hope not.

But it's the only "acceptable" timeframe for that kiss.

 

 

Here's my idea

 

What if it something happened between them when he went back to Starling City during the Hong Kong phase. 

 

Like he sought out Laurel and tells her she can never reveal he exists because her family would be in danger. They kiss or have sex. He gives her the picture or he drops it and she finds it. After this he takes off for Robert's office and sees Felicity for the first time and was gobsmacked.

 

He returns to Hong Kong goes through the rest of his shitty life. When he returns to Star(ling) City, he's different from all the shitty stuff, he's got PTSD etc etc. Laurel hates him. But maybe also......somewhere in the back of his mind he remembers this cute blonde with glasses but can't really remember where he saw her. When he goes to get his laptop fixed and sees Felicity...he's like...wait....you seem familiar but still doesn't quite place it...but feels SOMETHING for her.  Then he researches her history with the company and the lightbulb goes off...and the rest is history.  

Edited April 8, 2016 by catrox14

[AyChihuahua]

His hair doesn't match. He had long hair when he returned to SC during his HK days.

[looptab]

^I don't think that would work. He still had the picture in this ep fb; and it wouldn't really add up with how she received him in the pilot and S1.

[hogwash]

I always thought it was weird that S02 opened with Oliver back on the island but it makes sense. He had all these ideas and plans when he decided(?) to leave Lian Yu but literally none of it worked out. His first year back in Starling was kind of a disaster. Tommy died, he failed horribly at stopping the Undertaking, he had no reason to the Hood anymore, and his romantic relationship with Laurel didn't work for ~whatever~ reason so he said screw it and went back to what he knew aka Lian Yu. 

[catrox14]

^I don't think that would work. He still had the picture in this ep fb; and it wouldn't really add up with how she received him in the pilot and S1.

 

Laurel hated him no matter what. She might have had a moment of stupidity and weakness and then as time went by and she never heard another word she figured he was dead again...and then she remembered all that he was a dick to her re Sara and such. But fair points especially the hair.

[ComicFan777]

I always thought it was weird that S02 opened with Oliver back on the island but it makes sense. He had all these ideas and plans when he decided(?) to leave Lian Yu but literally none of it worked out. His first year back in Starling was kind of a disaster. Tommy died, he failed horribly at stopping the Undertaking, he had no reason to the Hood anymore, and his romantic relationship with Laurel didn't work for ~whatever~ reason so he said screw it and went back to what he knew aka Lian Yu. 

 

I think in Arrow comics 1.5, it showed that on the way to save Laurel and subsequently Tommy at CNRI, he crashed his bike and saved someone on his way there.  He felt that if he didn't take the time to save a stranger, he would have made it on time to save Tommy.  Later, he went to to try to see Laurel, but she didn't want to see anyone.  He told Diggle that he felt super guilty about not making it on time to save Tommy and that his last conversation with Tommy was about Oliver sleeping with the woman Tommy loved, and then gave Diggle and Felicity severance pay and left for the island.

Edited April 8, 2016 by ComicFan777

[blackwing]

I too am not 100% convinced that Laurel is gone from the show for good.  I don't follow the twitters and all the behind the scenes stuff, but in the comic book world, nobody ever really stays dead.

 

There's a lot about this episode that made little sense.   I find it incomprehensible that Star City would elect Ruve "Adams" as its mayor.  Every candidate would have been vetted.  There's absolutely no way that somebody didn't discover that her husband is a murderer and is in prison.  I'm puzzled as to why Oliver or someone on the team didn't leak this information to the press.

 

The idol doohickey thing is missing a piece, Oliver knows it, and he also suspects that Andy is working for Dahrk.  So what does he do?  He leaves it lying around so Andy can find it.  This is too stupid for words.  Oliver should have been carrying that piece around in his underwear or something.

 

I am so sick of Damien Dahrk.  But unfortunately, the fact that Ruve is now mayor and the fact that they gave her the name of Neal McDonough's real life wife makes me think that he is sticking around for a while.

[Advance35]

Laurel knew Oliver moved on and was happy for him and hoped he would find the happiness she wanted for the man she loved. She was a bit sad for herself because she couldn't move on and maybe if she wouldn't have died she might have finally move on after this. But life is short and when you waste it pining for a simpler time that never really was you often die alone. But Laurel didn't lie alone. She had her friends and her purpose. She knew she made the right choice in being BC because it made her happy. That's what I took from the episode.

 

This sums it all up pretty well IMO.  I'm not really sure what all the fuss was about.  The ideal death is one where she's 100 surrounded by Grandchildren, in her line of work, that wasn't likely to happen.   I thought she exhibited agency by choosing to go out into the streets of Starling as Black Canary despite the risk to her life and her career.  The romantic aspect of the character was always messy, she didn't value Tommy when he was alive (hence why she slept with Oliver while their status was up in the air) and with time, what she felt during the course of their relationship probably faded.   Oliver is someone that's been in her life in one way or another, in continous fashion through the years and she may have been reminded about what drew her to him to begin with. 

 

For me it wasn't so much pathetic as bad luck.  It was a toxic and dead-end relationship that Oliver put behind him.  He found someone who inspired stronger feeling in him.  Laurel was never that fortunate.  That's the way the cookie crumbles.   The good don't always come to a good end, nor would I want them to in fiction.   I was bored by this episode because it was centered on Laurel whom I find boring in every way.