S04.E18: Eleven-Fifty-Nine

[SonofaBiscuit]

Will killing Laurel alienate some comic purists and cost Arrow viewers?  Sure.  Possibly.  Does the show seem to care?  Nah.

 

Also, OMG the scene where everyone is telling Laurel that they love her is all kinds of awkward.  Like, was SA forced to choose between saying the words or maintaining eye contact?  The way that they zoomed in on him while he stood there all silent was completely weird.  

 

 

[EmilyBettFan]

I think they were saying "we love you" right? It was oddly funny to see Oliver not say anything. But by saying we love you one could have said it and it would've been enough.

Edited April 7, 2016 by EmilyBettFan

[phoenics]

The Comic canon argument always baffles me. Which comic, which canon, do we want them to follow? Do we count alternate universes? One offs? Graphic Novels? Mini-series? If the tv shows followed all of those, we'd have one strange story on our hands.

LOL - that's actually not what canon means. Canon means in the current universe. One reason BvS is getting some flack right now is because they are kinda mixing Alternate Universe events with the current universe. That kind of thing irritates fans, lol. But canon is considered canon for the current universe - not alternate ones. Meaning, there is Alternative Universe Canon and Current Universe Canon. For example - just because on E2 we had KF doesn't mean she's "canon" for The Flash. She's just canon for E2 The Flash. Same thing in comics.

What comic book is LOT following? Is there an actual Flash comic book with that dumb

Jay Garrick/Zoom/quadruplets(?)

crap everyone saw coming???

Actually the LOT storyline is pulled from comic canon - it was just originally meant for the Justice League. They just replaced all of the A-list DC comics heroes from that with the B-C-D listers they have on LOT. And they changed enough of the story that it doesn't fully disrupt the storyline that the JL was supposed to have with Vandal Savage.

And about Jay Garrick - actually having him be Hunter Zolomon is total comic canon. Because that's who he is in the comics.

Like I said, The Flash is really, really good at keeping true to canon in all of the important ways, while still being fresh. Arrow isn't good at that - they basically never tried, as Arrow is just a poor man's version of Batman. Which is why I don't think one can really make "No one is SAFE!" arguments for The Flash. Maybe LOT because that's more MG's thing, but the Flash has Geoff Johns... and he's practically the owner of The Flash and wants to be faithful to his own work there, so ...

Is there another place where we should be posting these comments though? Now it feels totally off topic to the episode.

Every behind the scenes evidence we've gathered here for the past couple of years points to the opposite -- the CW went to bat for KC over and over again, while WBTV was pushing Berlanti Prod to replace her.

Interesting.

Look - don't really care about the whole Laurel thing - my point was that if fans think Laurel getting fridged means anything for other DC shows, I don't think it translates. Laurel was a very special one off case due to circumstances. I could see LOT in a similar position though - because LOT took Justice League canon and turned it into something for these B-C-D list heroes/rogues. So there is a lot of wiggle room there. Not so much with The Flash.

[mrspidey]

In all seriousness, from the way it was edited from Ollie and Laurel talking without us hearing anything and then cutting to her flatlining even though the doctor seemed very sure she was going to be fine, I think Ollie faked her death.

They probably showed him faking Poppy's death in the flashback just for this. 

[Sakura12]

LOL - that's actually not what canon means. Canon means in the current universe. 

 

Current New 52 Universe? So we should have Oliver become a werewolf and Laurel headline a band? That sounds terrible IMO. Or do we get to pick and choose which comic "canon" a tv show should follow? 

 

One reason BvS is getting some flack right now is because they are kinda mixing Alternate Universe events with the current universe

 

BvS is getting flack because it's a terribly written, directed, edited movie. 

Edited April 7, 2016 by Sakura12

[apinknightmare]

In all seriousness, from the way it was edited from Ollie and Laurel talking without us hearing anything and then cutting to her flatlining even though the doctor seemed very sure she was going to be fine, I think Ollie faked her death.

They probably showed him faking Poppy's death in the flashback just for this.

The producers have already come out and said Oliver didn't fake her death. Edited April 7, 2016 by apinknightmare

[bijoux]

When the ER doctor took over Laurel, she told the Green Arrow to get out of there before anyone else came in and saw him.  I guess he still has some friends on the hospital staff.

 

Or was it so she could slip Laurel something that would ultimately cause her death? Dun dun DUN.

 

We haven't seen Ruve fight yet.  But we do know she's the real Machiavellian one in the relationship.

Personally, I think it would be awesome to have Ruve end up to be Talia. That would be the kind of twisted black thinking I admire from Damian Darhk.

It's not about not seeing her fight. It's that the actress doesn't really come off as formidable to me. There was that shot in the limo after the run in with Anarky, but everything since then does not make me think badass.

[ComicFan777]

All I can think of when I see this is: Felicity is Oliver's home. 

 

 

 

 

[catrox14]

 

Or was it so she could slip Laurel something that would ultimately cause her death? Dun dun DUN.

 

Oh. That hadn't occurred to me. Maybe the doctor and her staff worked for Damien Darkh and it was to finish her off?

 

 

It's not about not seeing her fight. It's that the actress doesn't really come off as formidable to me. There was that shot in the limo after the run in with Anarky, but everything since then does not make me think badass.

 

 She seems more scary than Darkh.

Edited April 7, 2016 by catrox14

[mrspidey]

The producers have already come out and said Oliver didn't fake her death.

Yes, and Kit Harrington keeps claiming to be done with Game of Thrones, despite evidence to the contrary. Benedict Cumberbatch insisted he wasn't playing Kahn.

These people are being paid to lie. 

[SonofaBiscuit]

Look - don't really care about the whole Laurel thing - my point was that if fans think Laurel getting fridged means anything for other DC shows, I don't think it translates. Laurel was a very special one off case due to circumstances. I could see LOT in a similar position though - because LOT took Justice League canon and turned it into something for these B-C-D list heroes/rogues. So there is a lot of wiggle room there. Not so much with The Flash.

 

Taking comments to Mind Your Surroundings Thread. 

[bijoux]

Oh. That hadn't occurred to me. Maybe the doctor and her staff worked for Damien Darkh and it was to finish her off?

 

Not out of the realm of possibility. I'd welcome it, since it would make Laurel's death more elaborate and deemed as being worth of some planning.

[nksarmi]

Wait canon means current canon???!@?@?@?

 

I just looked it up and Dinah was a covert ops agent with the codename Operation Canary who secretly married her partner Kurt Lance - and she's a meta human.

 

She is currently in no way in a relationship with Green Arrow!

[AyChihuahua]

Yes, and Kit Harrington keeps claiming to be done with Game of Thrones, despite evidence to the contrary. Benedict Cumberbatch insisted he wasn't playing Kahn.

These people are being paid to lie. 

Well, KC's booked for European conventions during S5 filming and 

hasn't filmed on the show since doing reshoots for this episode, soooo...

Wait canon means current canon???!@?@?@?

 

I just looked it up and Dinah was a covert ops agent with the codename Operation Canary who secretly married her partner Kurt Lance - and she's a meta human.

 

She is currently in no way in a relationship with Green Arrow!

They haven't even met in their current/just ended versions. So hey, they're almost as close in canon as they were in the show!

[Sakura12]

Well, KC's booked for European conventions during S5 filming and 

hasn't filmed on the show since doing reshoots for this episode, soooo...

They haven't even met in their current/just ended versions. So hey, they're almost as close in canon as they were in the show!

 

Right. I want the version where Dinah Laurel Lance doesn't exist. Now they gave that version to me. Good job, comic canon!

[apinknightmare]

Yes, and Kit Harrington keeps claiming to be done with Game of Thrones, despite evidence to the contrary. Benedict Cumberbatch insisted he wasn't playing Kahn.

These people are being paid to lie. 

 

Okay. Any particular reason why you think they'd fake her death? It completely takes her off the board in the one job she was actually somewhat effective at - being a lawyer. Darhk targeted Felicity, too, and she went on living publicly after he shot her to hell and back. It would make her parents go through the grief of losing a daughter again. She comes back later for...what, exactly? Her leaving takes away one set of helping hands that the team desperately needs. 

 

I think it's just bad editing, which is a common issue with this show. 

Edited April 8, 2016 by apinknightmare

[ComicFan777]

Current New 52 Universe? So we should have Oliver become a werewolf and Laurel headline a band? That sounds terrible IMO.

 

"Hairy and the Canary" - doesn't that sound like a show people would love to watch?...new twist on beauty and the beast...

Edited April 7, 2016 by ComicFan777

[Jillibean]

After an almost-day of thinking about it, I have found that I'm truly annoyed by the way this was done. I agree with all others who see this as yet another failure for women on this show. I was immediately struck last night by the fact that Laurel was killed while she was frozen and helpless, which didn't sit well with me. She's a fighter; let her die fighting, not just standing there unable to move. But there are really more layers than that going on that became more apparent as I thought more about it. 

 

When it was initially spoiled that Laurel was the character to die, there was a lot of speculation on whether she would be targeted because she was the BC or whether it was as "herself" due to her prosecution of Dahrk. It's actually extremely disappointing that it ended up being because of what she represented to a man. At least give her the respect of having her die because of who SHE was, not because she was Lance's daughter. That was a simple thing that I think they really messed up.

 

And then, of course, the fact that her pre-death speech was all about Oliver and her noble love for him. I know this show is called Arrow and Oliver is the main character, but Laurel was a character who arguably had the most non-Oliver-involved storyline through the four year run. Her pre-death musings COULD have been solely about herself and her own journey, independent of and beyond Oliver. That she was made to never have stopped loving a character who treated her so poorly, completely invalidating her self-respect, is almost forgettable compared to these other issues. 

 

I was hoping when Wendy Mericle became a showrunner that some of the underlying, systemic sexism would be alleviated. But this episode really showed everything that is wrong with having people who clearly have (at best) some unrealized stereotypical views about women writing a show with women in it.  

 

I didn't like Laurel. I don't think I'll miss her. But it's hard to feel good about a show that keeps telling me in a variety of ways that it doesn't value my entire gender.

[Midnight Lullaby]

Also, OMG the scene where everyone is telling Laurel that they love her is all kinds of awkward.  Like, was SA forced to choose between saying the words or maintaining eye contact?  The way that they zoomed in on him while he stood there all silent was completely weird.

When I watched I thought he was supposed to say "we love you" like the others because the camera focused on every character in the moment they said it but he just stood there in silence. Maybe the writers or SA didn't want to make him say the words because the most cringeworthy love declaration ever was coming and it could get even more awkward? I wouldn't be shocked if they talked about it with SA and he told them he wasn't going to say it. He plays Oliver like he tolerates Laurel.

It was just all very weird and his silence very noticeable.

[phoenics]

Wait canon means current canon???!@?@?@?

Current universe canon. It doesn't invalidate other current universe canons. I was differentiating between alternate universe canon and current universe canon. I consider all continuities to be valid and legitimate - except the new 52, which I find to be an abomination.

Again - not really caring much about Laurel/Oliver or arguing for them - that's not why I'm concerned with canon because even in that, BC/GA weren't always together... my concern was killing off an iconic character like BC and setting a precedent for other comic shows.

[phoenics]

After an almost-day of thinking about it, I have found that I'm truly annoyed by the way this was done. I agree with all others who see this as yet another failure for women on this show. I was immediately struck last night by the fact that Laurel was killed while she was frozen and helpless, which didn't sit well with me. She's a fighter; let her die fighting, not just standing there unable to move. But there are really more layers than that going on that became more apparent as I thought more about it. 

 

When it was initially spoiled that Laurel was the character to die, there was a lot of speculation on whether she would be targeted because she was the BC or whether it was as "herself" due to her prosecution of Dahrk. It's actually extremely disappointing that it ended up being because of what she represented to a man. At least give her the respect of having her die because of who SHE was, not because she was Lance's daughter. That was a simple thing that I think they really messed up.

 

And then, of course, the fact that her pre-death speech was all about Oliver and her noble love for him. I know this show is called Arrow and Oliver is the main character, but Laurel was a character who arguably had the most non-Oliver-involved storyline through the four year run. Her pre-death musings COULD have been solely about herself and her own journey, independent of and beyond Oliver. That she was made to never have stopped loving a character who treated her so poorly, completely invalidating her self-respect, is almost forgettable compared to these other issues. 

 

I was hoping when Wendy Mericle became a showrunner that some of the underlying, systemic sexism would be alleviated. But this episode really showed everything that is wrong with having people who clearly have (at best) some unrealized stereotypical views about women writing a show with women in it.  

 

I didn't like Laurel. I don't think I'll miss her. But it's hard to feel good about a show that keeps telling me in a variety of ways that it doesn't value my entire gender.

Cosign on this. I think one of the reasons for my rage is also that LL was BC and as a die hard fangirl I hated seeing BC go out like that.

[lemotomato]

Nevermind

Edited April 7, 2016 by lemotomato

[phoenics]

But I thought Laurel/BC's love for Oliver/GA was comic canon? Or so I've been told.

I'm not sure it was constant canon. Meaning there were times they were apart/together/apart, etc.. I know some fans clung to them as being soulmates or something, but they aren't the same as Lois/Clark or Barry/Iris in terms of comic royalty. So while they were together at some point, they weren't constantly and they weren't necessarily presented as soulmates (although I'm sure someone might argue that they were).

I think that's why I could accept them not being together anymore on Arrow and why I was more invested in BC... thus my rage at seeing her reduced to "pining for Oliver" in her last breath and "propping up of Olicity" in her last breath when I think it would have been much better for the writers to show her in a stronger light as a woman/BC. They spent 3 years dismantling anything romantic with BC/GA, why bring that up again and then make her an Olicity shipper to boot? Since they spent those 3 years making her into her own character, why couldn't she have died that way too? Why did her death have to be because of her relationship to a man and not by her own agency?

It just felt ugly and sexist. Which I guess makes sense - these writers must eat misogyny for breakfast every morning because that's all they seem to write.

*off to self medicate with Daredevil and JJ*

Edited April 7, 2016 by phoenics

[nksarmi]

As someone who watched a lot of Justice League and Young Justice cartoons with my kids - I rather like Black Canary.  But at the same time, I never realized her name was Dinah / Laurel Lance.  So when I was binge watching Arrow on Netflix and they brought Sara on as - essentially BC - I LOVED her. When I found out they killed Sara so Laurel could become BC - I was livid.  The way they killed Sara only made it worse.

 

Sara's death not only did her character badly, it also did Thea badly, and it kind did Laurel badly as well.  Laurel should not have become BC that way and IF she did - she should have been allowed to avenge her sister!  I will not argue that the show runners didn't muck this up in a major way.  But as far as I'm concerned - they did give us a great BC in Sara.  I think it was just their desire to twist things all around to make Laurel BC that messed up what could have really been a good story.

 

I am sorry they killed Laurel off this way.  It was always my head canon that she truly loved Tommy and only fell back in with Oliver in season one because he was finally standing there picking her and Tommy had walked away.  But that once Tommy died for her she felt guilty and regretted  her actions.  And that was what led her to drink in season two and why she was so angry that Oliver could move on and be happy with Sara - because she still felt horrible.

 

I've spent a lot of time thinking that Laurel because BC to deal with her helplessness and grief over Sara in a different way than she dealt with losing Tommy.  I honestly felt that she understood that Oliver never loved her - not really and that she probably dodged a bullet since he would have only hurt her over and over again.

 

But they ruined all of that for me and made it canon that Laurel didn't love Tommy, always loved Oliver, and never understood had wrong he was for her.  That hurts and I wasn't even a fan.  I can't imagine how her fans must feel.

 

No matter how mistreated Sara, Shado, or even Moira were in their deaths - at least none of them had to profess their love for a man who knocked up their friend and slept with their sister.

[Sakura12]

Current universe canon. It doesn't invalidate other current universe canons. I was differentiating between alternate universe canon and current universe canon. I consider all continuities to be valid and legitimate - except the new 52, which I find to be an abomination.

 

So we can pick and choose the canon we like. Which means the show can also pick and choose which canon they want to base their show on.

 

I consider Sara to be Black Canary. I even hear Sara when watching BC in the Justice League cartoons. So for me they've been doing a great job writing a master martial artist that fights for woman, took in an orphan named Sin, had an on and off relationship with Green Arrow and is currently with her own team of heroes. 

Edited April 7, 2016 by Sakura12

[lemotomato]

I'm not sure it was constant canon. Meaning there were times they were apart/together/apart, etc.. I know some fans clung to them as being soulmates or something, but they aren't the same as Lois/Clark or Barry/Iris in terms of comic royalty. So while they were together at some point, they weren't constantly and they weren't necessarily presented as soulmates (although I'm sure someone might argue that they were).

I think that's why I could accept them not being together anymore on Arrow and why I was more invested in BC... thus my rage at seeing her reduced to "pining for Oliver" in her last breath and "propping up of Olicity" in her last breath when I think it would have been much better for the writers to show her in a stronger light as a woman/BC. They spent 3 years dismantling anything romantic with BC/GA, why bring that up again and then make her an Olicity shipper to boot? Since they spent those 3 years making her into her own character, why couldn't she have died that way too? Why did her death have to be because of her relationship to a man and not by her own agency?

It just felt ugly and sexist. Which I guess makes sense - these writers must eat misogyny for breakfast every morning because that's all they seem to write.

Oliver being the love of Laurel's life was KC's headcanon for the character. She's said so repeatedly, despite all evidence to the contrary on the show. You asked why the writers spent three years making Laurel her own character and repeatedly emphasizing that she and Oliver were never ever ever getting back together, only to have her declare her love at her deathbed. I'll tell you why-- because comic canon. Because whenever they tried to give Laurel something to do, the question the EPs and writers got was always still "When are GA and BC getting back together?" Because every interview KC gave, all the way up to February of this year, she was saying stuff like this:

 

Cassidy: Yeah, absolutely. Also, thinking about it, I felt I was happy -- and the way I look at their relationship -- I'm happy for Oliver, and I'm happy for Felicity. I see Felicity as this genuinely beautiful person and good person. Obviously, I still think Oliver is the love of Laurel's life, but that doesn't mean you end up with the love of your life. So I feel like she's come to peace with that. But it's also… Laurel didn't know who she was as a person when we saw her in Season 1, so she had to find herself and go through this journey on her own. Meanwhile, she got to watch this beautiful relationship blossom.

I'll be the first person to criticize the writers for their penchant to always choose the worst way tell a dramatic storyline (see: Oliver's secret child), and yes, the way BC got killed off sucked. But her declaring her love for Oliver? I'm going to blame that on KC. And the writer of this episode (Keto Shimizu, self-professed BC fan) for thinking that piece of comic canon was what mattered the most, and not the relationship with her father that was cultivated on the show.

Edited April 7, 2016 by lemotomato

[phoenics]

So we can pick and choose the canon we like. Which means the show can also pick and choose which canon they want to base their show on.

No - I said I consider it to be an abomination, but the writers may not. I'm still hating WW/Superman as a couple and I'll probably rail against that for a very long time. I think the pairing harms both characters and takes away from who they are and looks like a cheerleader/jock hooking up and not the insider/outsider thing we got with Lois/Clark. L&C humanized Supes, imo. The only good thing is that they have only a couple of years of canon compared to 50+ years that L&C have.

But it is canon... so ...

I consider Sara to be Black Canary. I even hear Sara when watching BC in the Justice League cartoons. So for me they've been doing a great job writing a master martial artist that fights for woman, took in an orphan named Sin, had an on and off relationship with Green Arrow and is currently with her own team of heroes.

Glad you liked The Canary. Perhaps they should have just made her BC. I don't think that's such a huge leap from canon - it just jumped sisters... which they already made it go from sister to sister anyway instead of mother to sister, so that wouldn't have been a horrible leap. The issue was that they'd already gone so far down the road with KC's LL.

In either case, it's immaterial since they did have LL be BC and I still didn't like how she was treated in the end.

[Midnight Lullaby]

If Arrow set a precedent that writers can kill off a character that exists in the source material because on screen she is a bad fit then good riddance. It's the logical and smart thing to do, while forcing a character into the story like they did for a long time with the risk of limiting the show's potential is just stupid. They are here to make money and since DC is fine with all the choices they did so far they agree and are fine with the show. The CW was the one that pushed to have and keep KC as BC.

The writers took the characters from the comics and made them their own version and told their own story. Good or bad it's as legit as any other take.

This year's flashbacks are the proof that stories taken from the comics can be terribly boring on screen. Not everything that works on paper works on screen.

I hated the way they killed LL like I hated the way they killed Waller, Sara, Shado because women should be allowed more agency than that but not because BC is in the comics so she should get a special treatment.

[Delphi]

I love Dinah, but honestly Arrow and Canary spend more time broken up then together. Selina and Bruce have a more constant relationship than they do.

[phoenics]

Oliver being the love of Laurel's life was KC's headcanon for the character. She's said so repeatedly, despite all evidence to the contrary on the show. You asked why the writers spent three years making Laurel her own character and repeatedly emphasizing that she and Oliver were never ever ever getting back together, only to have her declare her love at her deathbed. I'll tell you why-- because comic canon. Because whenever they tried to give Laurel something to do, the question the EPs and writers got was always still "When are GA and BC getting back together?" Because every interview KC gave, all the way up to February of this year, she was saying stuff like this:

I'll be the first person to criticize the writers for their penchant to always choose the worst way tell a dramatic storyline (see: Oliver's secret child), and yes, the way BC got killed off sucked. But her declaring her love for Oliver? I'm going to blame that on KC. And the writer of this episode (Keto Shimizu, self-professed BC fan) for thinking that piece of comic canon what mattered the most.

Um - okay? I don't actually get into the behind the scenes of Arrow, sorry. So I am not on the up and up on that as it relates to what aired. So in that sense, it's kinda immaterial to me. I'm more concerned with what aired. And what aired SUCKED. It sucked to have Laurel/BC reduced to pining for Oliver in her last breath and it sucked to have her prop up Olicity in her last breath. It also sucked to have BC die that way - not even by her own agency or due to her actions in the courtroom - but because of beef between two men.

I didn't like it. No amount of backstage stuff changes that I didn't like it.

Is it not okay for some of us not to like it? And is it not okay for some of us not to like it because we love the comics and enjoy them? It's starting to feel like admitting you like comics and canon and get a thrill of seeing it onscreen (it doesn't have to be an EXACT match, but close) is tantamount to admitting you do drugs or something.

[lemotomato]

Um - okay? I don't actually get into the behind the scenes of Arrow, sorry. So I am not on the up and up on that as it relates to what aired. So in that sense, it's kinda immaterial to me. I'm more concerned with what aired. And what aired SUCKED. It sucked to have Laurel/BC reduced to pining for Oliver in her last breath and it sucked to have her prop up Olicity in her last breath. It also sucked to have BC die that way - not even by her own agency or due to her actions in the courtroom - but because of beef between two men.

I didn't like it. No amount of backstage stuff changes that I didn't like it.

Is it not okay for some of us not to like it? And is it not okay for some of us not to like it because we love the comics and enjoy them? It's starting to feel like admitting you like comics and canon and get a thrill of seeing it onscreen (it doesn't have to be an EXACT match, but close) is tantamount to admitting you do drugs or something.

It's fine for you to not like it. I don't like it either, obviously. I just disagree with who you're blaming for that scene and the motivation behind the writing of it.

 

And I'm tired of feeling like I'm required to read a minimum of 50 issues of comics to "get" why the show sucks.

Edited April 8, 2016 by lemotomato

[AyChihuahua]

If only KC hadn't been such a total and absolute fail in the role. Casting - and budget for fx and such - the ruination of many comics to tv/movie adaptations.

[phoenics]

If Arrow set a precedent that writers can kill off a character that exists in the source material because on screen she is a bad fit then good riddance. It's the logical and smart thing to do, while forcing a character into the story like they did for a long time with the risk of limiting the show's potential is just stupid. They are here to make money and since DC is fine with all the choices they did so far they agree and are fine with the show. The CW was the one that pushed to have and keep KC as BC.

The writers took the characters from the comics and made them their own version and told their own story. Good or bad it's as legit as any other take.

This year's flashbacks are the proof that stories taken from the comics can be terribly boring on screen. Not everything that works on paper works on screen.

I hated the way they killed LL like I hated the way they killed Waller, Sara, Shado because women should be allowed more agency than that but not because BC is in the comics so she should get a special treatment.

Except the only characters taken from canon on this show have been BC, Arsenal, Speedy (sort of), etc.. Arrow wasn't taken from canon, so this show was a departure from GA canon from the start. His whole backstory is The Dark Knight (batman). So, departing from BC/GA love affair or even BC being alive matters less on THIS show because THIS show hasn't been canon from the start.

But The Flash? Pretty much has in the ways that matter. That's why I don't think it translates.

I also think it's a perfectly reasonable opinion to not want to see BC treated poorly in a portrayal BECAUSE you love the comics and her in the comics. Is "loving the comics" and "canon" not an acceptable viewpoint here?

[Sakura12]

Sara's the Black Canary to me not the Canary who wore a black costume. Which was my point. I do not recognize Laurel as anyone other than someone that happens to share the name with a comic character.

 

Even her rise to BC was half assed and she treated like an afterthought for most of the Arrow's run. They've haven't known what to do with her since S1. 

 

I do agree with how she was treated, but she wasn't treated any differently than the rest of the woman who were killed on this show. The Flash sucks at writing for female characters that is not a love interest and Arrow sucks with the way they kill off their female characters. 

 

Shado - shot with her hands tied behind her back unable to fight back.

Moira - stabbed with her hands tied behind her back unable to fight back.

Isabel - killed with her hands tied behind her back unable to fight back.

Sara - shot off a root top unable to fight back, then bounced off a garbage dumpster, slammed onto the pavement

Amanda Waller - shot in the head by surprise unable to fight back.

Now Laurel - stabbed while magically frozen unable to fight back.

Edited April 8, 2016 by Sakura12

[phoenics]

It's fine for you to not like it. I don't like it either, obviously. I just disagree with who you're blaming for that scene and the motivation behind the writing of it.

I'm blaming the writers. I don't like that they had LL propping up Olicity (it was unnecessary) or pining for Oliver (just yuk) on her deathbed, nor how she was fatally wounded.

[dtissagirl]

Except the only characters taken from canon on this show have been BC, Arsenal, Speedy (sort of), etc.. Arrow wasn't taken from canon, so this show was a departure from GA canon from the start. His whole backstory is The Dark Knight (batman).

Laurel as she was written the Arrow pilot script is a carbon copy of Rachel Dawes from the Nolan Batman *movies*. No comics involved. So she's in the exact same situation you just put Oliver.

[Midnight Lullaby]

Except the only characters taken from canon on this show have been BC, Arsenal, Speedy (sort of), etc.. Arrow wasn't taken from canon, so this show was a departure from GA canon from the start. His whole backstory is The Dark Knight (batman). So, departing from BC/GA love affair or even BC being alive matters less on THIS show because THIS show hasn't been canon from the start.But The Flash? Pretty much has in the ways that matter. That's why I don't think it translates.I also think it's a perfectly reasonable opinion to not want to see BC treated poorly in a portrayal BECAUSE you love the comics and her in the comics. Is "loving the comics" and "canon" not an acceptable viewpoint here?

Flash is in a different situation because it hasn't had a problem with the characters. You think they are going in a direction because it's canon but this is television, they are going with the direction that works on screen and luckily for you it happens to be the one you enjoy. There are a few thousand comic readers and they need to write the show for million viewers. It's not about comic canon, it's about what works on screen.

No, I just don't particularly like the idea that if a woman has no agency but wasn't in the source material it isn't a big deal, if she was there's outrage.

[phoenics]

Laurel as she was written the Arrow pilot script is a carbon copy of Rachel Dawes from the Nolan Batman *movies*. No comics involved. So she's in the exact same situation you just put Oliver.

Good point... it still doesn't change my view about how BC was killed off. If it was just LL, then I probably wouldn't feel this way. If they killed off Vixen in a similar way I'd be angry too, regardless of how well or poorly the character was written.

[catrox14]

The showrunners do seem to listen to some extent to the wishes of the actors.  They took a cue from John Barrowman's husband that instead of Oliver being Malcolm's son, it should be Thea that is Malcolm's daughter. And I think that has actually been a great thing. SA had the idea of Oliver having a kid but I don't think he figured it would play out like it did. 

 

KC had input into the design of her costume and if she wanted it known that Laurel still carried a torch for Oliver  in her final episode then she must have thought her character of Black Canary deserved it.  She might have thought it was a romantic ending for Laurel. 

 

So there is something to be said for the actors input as valid reasons why things get on screen if they feel strongly enough about it for their character.

[phoenics]

The showrunners do seem to listen to some extent to the wishes of the actors.  They took a cue from John Barrowman's husband that instead of Oliver being Malcolm's son, it should be Thea that is Malcolm's daughter. And I think that has actually been a great thing. SA had the idea of Oliver having a kid but I don't think he figured it would play out like it did. 

 

KC had input into the design of her costume and if she wanted it known that Laurel still carried a torch for Oliver  in her final episode then she must have thought her character of Black Canary deserved it.  She might have thought it was a romantic ending for Laurel. 

 

So there is something to be said for the actors input as valid reasons why things get on screen if they feel strongly enough about it for their character.

Did I say something earlier in the thread that led people to believe that I cared WHERE the "Laurel pining for Oliver", and "Laurel props up Olicity" on her deathbed, or how Laurel got her fatal wound came from?

I think another poster mentioned that, but I. DON'T. CARE. The writers put it in, so I blame them! Maybe KC got the pining part in there (gag), but I still hate it. And I still hated the Olicity part. I wanted separation from that. And I hated how she died.

So - since I'm now repeating myself, I'll see myself out.

[dtissagirl]

Good point... it still doesn't change my view about how BC was killed off. If it was just LL, then I probably wouldn't feel this way. If they killed off Vixen in a similar way I'd be angry too, regardless of how well or poorly the character was written.

This is awkward, but here's my street cred because I feel like it's needed in this convo: 1. I read DC comics on the regular. 2. I love Dinah in the comics, and I've pretty much read every book Black Canary has been in. 3. I hated how they killed Laurel, and I hated it that they made her last words about Oliver and O/F.

But. I have been unable to see the Dinah Lance I know and love from the comics in Laurel Lance, due to writing and acting choices. It has never happened, not for one second, in eighty seven episodes of television. So the fact that Arrow called her Black Canary meant nothing to me in relation to the comic book canon. So the comic canon doesn't factor in my issues. I am actually grateful that the CW forced them to call her "Laurel", because it puts even more distance between comic book canon and a character I consider a complete failure.

Edited April 8, 2016 by dtissagirl

[Guest]

I feel for DC fans who wanted an accurate representation of Dinah on TV. But the fact is that was never going to happen. They messed up big time from day one. Laurel wasn't Dinah. They didn't have to kill her off and could have just written her out but they clearly wanted a big death to get people talking and I have to hand it to them for that at least. People are definitely talking about it, whether good or bad.

 

I am uncomfortable by the notion that comic book characters should somehow get better treatment just because they're from the comics though. It's like the idea that Felicity should be killed off instead because she's not canon and that makes it better. Just no to all of that.

Edited April 8, 2016 by Guest

[Sakura12]

I feel for DC fans who wanted an accurate representation of Dinah on TV. 

 

I did, she's just called Sara instead. 

[ComicFan777]

Given the ugly history between Ollie and Laurel before, I never understood why past-Laurel always stayed with Ollie or took him back before.  What was going through her mind when she knew that Ollie cheated on her repeatedly and she still took him back.  Did she want the Queen name or was she a gold digger?  I just didn't get it.

 

I assume that the show wanted the audience to see that after the five years after Oliver was gone, that Laurel has changed from that naive girl to a strong woman who respected herself.  Just a few episodes ago, Laurel was hurt and shocked by the fact that Ollie slept and impregnated her friend - I figured if anything, on top of Ollie sleeping with her sister, that would have completely shattered her picture of Ollie and make her realize what a douche he was in the past.

 

With a single declaration, Ollie will always be the love of her life - LL just turned out to be a delusional girl with no self-respect.  It makes me sad that KC had so little respect for her character to even have this headcanon, and that the writers went along with it.  I never liked LL, but I would have expected them to at least give LL a little dignity in her last scene.

Edited April 8, 2016 by ComicFan777

[catrox14]

 

Did I say something earlier in the thread that led people to believe that I cared WHERE the "Laurel pining for Oliver", and "Laurel props up Olicity" on her deathbed, or how Laurel got her fatal wound came from?

 

I was responding to your comment about Laurel's treatment from the writing aspect and that it was the writers who are to be 100% blamed. 

 

My point was that some things that end up on the screen about a character are there because the actor wants it for their character. I'm not sure how that can be divorced from the final product and some of that is NOT on the writers.

[phoenics]

This is awkward, but here's my street cred because I feel like it's needed in this convo: 1. I read DC comics on the regular. 2. I love Dinah in the comics, and I've pretty much read every book Black Canary has been in. 3. I hated how they killed Laurel, and I hated it that they made her last words about Oliver and O/F.

But. I have been unable to see the Dinah Lance I know and love from the comics in Laurel Lance, due to writing and acting choices. It has never happened, not for one second, in eighty seven episodes of television. So the fact that Arrow called her Black Canary meant nothing to me in relation to the comic book canon. So the comic canon doesn't factor in my issues. I am actually grateful that the CW forced them to call her "Laurel", because it puts even more distance between comic book canon and a character I consider a complete failure.

Oh see - we actually agree on the fact that the show never got to real DC Comic levels with Laurel as BC. I totally agree there.

My anger was just that I wanted a nice close for the character - so this iteration of her (flawed though it was) could rest in peace. I just hated how they did it - to such an iconic character too. I think a lot of this is latent anger that they never got her right on the show and especially not in her death.

I feel like I'm being misunderstood by a lot of people here who are projecting comments/ideas onto me that I haven't said... or even fan-love that I've never expressed. My concern has always been for BC and my sadness at how she was killed off - and also (though I didn't express this clearly) that she never got to the level of BC that I knew and loved.

[dtissagirl]

I am uncomfortable by the notion that comic book characters should somehow get better treatment just because they're from the comics though. It's like the idea that Felicity should be killed off instead because she's not canon and that makes it better. Just no to all of that.

This. I'm also not keen on the idea that I have to regard comic books as some sort of homework I have to do, or framework I need to keep in mind, when I'm watching the show. And technically I could do that because I know the material, but I DO NOT WANT TO WATCH TV LIKE THAT.

[phoenics]

I feel for DC fans who wanted an accurate representation of Dinah on TV. But the fact is that was never going to happen. They messed up big time from day one. Laurel wasn't Dinah. They didn't have to kill her off and could have just written her out but they clearly wanted a big death to get people talking and I have to hand it to them for that at least. People are definitely talking about it, whether good or bad.

You're probably right in that it was never going to happen and it was probably doomed from the start. But I think I wanted it to happen and kept hoping for it to happen. I mean - even if they'd just gone ahead and made Canary the real BC - that could have worked. But no.

 

I am uncomfortable by the notion that comic book characters should somehow get better treatment just because they're from the comics though. It's like the idea that Felicity should be killed off instead because she's not canon and that makes it better. Just no to all of that.

No - that's not even what I mean. Not sure what others have said because I tend to not really be in this fandom. Was that said in this thread and I missed it? Where is it? Because that's not what I've been saying at all and I'm getting weary of feeling like my posts are being received in a way I didn't write.

I guess I just wanted a better send off for a character that was a DC icon and I didn't get it. I got a hot mess instead. That's probably all we've gotten for this character, but I still expected and hoped for better.

Like I mentioned before with BvS - I'm actually upset right now that they are using an Alternate Reality storyline for Superman in this series (they are saying it's the future and not an AR) because I believe it taints the character and disturbs his moral core that I thought was sacrosanct. I get upset when I see beloved characters treated poorly. I didn't see the worst in LL like many others did, but I agree she wasn't cutting it... and she wasn't the best BC the way they wrote her and probably in how she was acted. But that doesn't mean that it still didn't hurt seeing 1) the character killed off (BC especially) and 2) seeing her killed off in such a craptacular way.

Edited April 8, 2016 by phoenics

[Guest]

My anger was just that I wanted a nice close for the character - so this iteration of her (flawed though it was) could rest in peace. I just hated how they did it - to such an iconic character too. I think a lot of this is latent anger that they never got her right on the show and especially not in her death.

 

She definitely needed a better ending for her character, totally agree. I think we all agree on that. Her death was underwhelming and lacking and the whole deathbed scene was bad. Still maintain it should have been with her dad. They wrote her in death like they did in life - like they just didn't care tbh. 

[Sakura12]

Oh see - we actually agree on the fact that the show never got to real DC Comic levels with Laurel as BC. I totally agree there.

My anger was just that I wanted a nice close for the character - so this iteration of her (flawed though it was) could rest in peace. I just hated how they did it - to such an iconic character too. I think a lot of this is latent anger that they never got her right on the show and especially not in her death.

I feel like I'm being misunderstood by a lot of people here who are projecting comments/ideas onto me that I haven't said... or even fan-love that I've never expressed. My concern has always been for BC and my sadness at how she was killed off - and also (though I didn't express this clearly) that she never got to the level of BC that I knew and loved.

 

None of the women on this show were shown any respect when they died. Laurel just joined Shado, Sara and Moira. Sara still probably has the worst death in terms of character, she was tossed at a garbage dumpster and actually put in a fridge, then buried in a pine box in the clothes she was killed and put in her old grave. At least it looks like Laurel is getting a proper funeral and burial.