S11.E18: Hell's Angel

[catrox14]

 

While I'm not against Dean being the hero here, and agree that as the prior Righteous Man, it's possible that he will qualify as the Chosen One, I'd rather him not have to be possessed to make it happen. I mean, if he's just going to be "Michael's condom", it will feel like he should have just done it years ago to get rid of Lucifer, IMO.

 

Dean did actually say yes in the Beautiful Room. Zachariah was killing Sam and Adam. I have never understood what happened there because Dean never reneged on his consent and he killed Zachariah but why did Michael take Adam when Adam never said yes and Dean did.  

 

I mean I know why in the long run but I never got the logistics of that.

[La Tortuga]

I find it best to just mindlessly watch this show without thinking too much. They've long ago abandoned any sense of a specific rules or abilities. Powers come and go based on the immediate need of the plot.

Rowena is ridiculously powerful. Not only could she release Lucifer from the trap, she can now bring herself back to life, fix her own broken neck, find and heal Amara. It's just absurd.

Crowley can possess a vessel holding not just one angel, but two. I know he's done it before with one angel, when Sam was a vessel, but I'm still not buying this should be possible.

Since when does the holy water ring of fire die? It's held Gabriel and Raphael in addition to Cas. But then the plot needed them held and now it needed Lucifer to get free. So whatever.

I don't see any issue with Sam referring to Cas's vessel as "it". It's just a lifeless vessel Cas is inhabiting. Jimmy is long gone. And Cas and his vessel are not one and the same. Cas is still an angel, and really a beam of light (or celestial intent if heaven has any intent left). He'd still be Cas without the vessel. But then I'm not sure if the show even remembers what angels used to be. Never has an entity been so completely destroyed and diminished as Supernatural's angels.

 

Rowena is 300 years old, and she's been hunted as a witch for most of that time. It isn't exactly a surprise that she's kept herself alive via magic, and she isn't the only witch on the show that's reached an unnaturally advanced age. She even implied that Charlie could do the same if she learned how. (I can't tell you how much I wish that had happened.)

 

The Holy Fire is fueled by Holy Oil, not Holy Water. The fire burns out because, Holy/Anointed Oil or not, it's still oil (probably olive oil). Eventually the fuel source gets all burned up. The show has never made a claim that it burns forever or that it can only hold a limited number of angels. This is, oddly enough, one of the few times the show actually doesn't violate the laws of physics. Much.

 

The show has already explained (somewhat too conveniently) that Cas isn't inhabiting a vessel named Jimmy Novak anymore, and that the body was reformed and is now Castiel's body. He owns it, and it's not lifeless. When he lost his grace and was no longer an angel, his soul remained in his living body. (Never mind how weird it was that an angel losing his grace but not dying was all of a sudden even a thing.) So, if an angel can inhabit a body without removing the soul of the person who owns it, then it stands to reason that Lucifer can inhabit Cas's body without removing Cas's soul. While I think this particular issue has been addressed, it doesn't explain Crowley joining the party. I also think this supports your larger point, which is that the writers reconfigure the mythology as they need to in order to advance the story or explain away the inconsistencies.

[catrox14]

Rowena is 300 years old, and she's been hunted as a witch for most of that time. It isn't exactly a surprise that she's kept herself alive via magic, and she isn't the only witch on the show that's reached an unnaturally advanced age. She even implied that Charlie could do the same if she learned how. (I can't tell you how much I wish that had happened.)

 

The Holy Fire is fueled by Holy Oil, not Holy Water. The fire burns out because, Holy/Anointed Oil or not, it's still oil (probably olive oil). Eventually the fuel source gets all burned up. The show has never made a claim that it burns forever or that it can only hold a limited number of angels. This is, oddly enough, one of the few times the show actually doesn't violate the laws of physics. Much.

 

The show has already explained (somewhat too conveniently) that Cas isn't inhabiting a vessel named Jimmy Novak anymore, and that the body was reformed and is now Castiel's body. He owns it, and it's not lifeless. When he lost his grace and was no longer an angel, his soul remained in his living body. (Never mind how weird it was that an angel losing his grace but not dying was all of a sudden even a thing.) So, if an angel can inhabit a body without removing the soul of the person who owns it, then it stands to reason that Lucifer can inhabit Cas's body without removing Cas's soul. While I think this particular issue has been addressed, it doesn't explain Crowley joining the party. I also think this supports your larger point, which is that the writers reconfigure the mythology as they need to in order to advance the story or explain away the inconsistencies.

 

I totally agree with you about Castiel's body being his and his alone.  I preparing a post and you beat me to the punch!

 

I don't think angels have souls though. So Cas' grace is what keeps him alive. Unless Cas got a soul when he was human, I don't think he has a soul now. 

[mertensia]

I enjoyed the episode. The Darkness boiling down those sterile hallways was filmed/special effected beautifully.

So Lucifer is done with the Winchesters, Rowena is playing everyone against each other, Crowley's wondering again why the Hell do these situations involve: a) the Winchesters; and b) his allying with them and Amara saved Sam and Dean. I'm guessing Chuck is God's new mouthpiece. Poor Chuck.

[DittyDotDot]

Well, I didn't totally hate the episode, but I didn't really like it, either.  It mainly just pointed out to me again just how poor the writing is on this show.  It makes me sad because I very much want it to be better.  The actors are up the to the task, but the writers let them down almost all the time.

 

[...]

 

Not sure at all what's up with Cas.  Either he's had a major break with reality, or Lucifer's done something to him to keep him docile. That was sort of frustrating to watch for me.  It does seem like they really don't have a clue what to do with him anymore.

 

I wouldn't put mental break out of the realm of possibility, but I think Lucifer is also messing with Cass somehow. Perhaps it's a good dose of both? Cass started to wake up to himself when he realized that was really Dean who had told him to cast out Lucifer--which said to me Lucifer has been must have been showing Cass a bunch of things that weren't real previously just to mess with him and keep him off balance. I also wouldn't be surprised if Lucifer is wiping his memories like Gadreel did for Sam. 

 

I'm with Dean, though, I just want Cass back. Although, it must be nice for Misha to not have to do the gravely Cass voice.

 

Dean did actually say yes in the Beautiful Room. Zachariah was killing Sam and Adam. I have never understood what happened there because Dean never reneged on his consent and he killed Zachariah but why did Michael take Adam when Adam never said yes and Dean did.  

 

I mean I know why in the long run but I never got the logistics of that.

 

Technically, I think Adam did say yes. He was pretty on-board with the angels' plans before he learned the angels were lying. It's just that the angels didn't actually care if he said yes at that point since they didn't actually want Adam but were using him to get to Dean. 

 

But yeah, the whole angel possession consent thing is murky at best. I finally decided it's not just saying yes, but also being a somewhat willing participant throughout the possession. When Gadreel possessed Sam, he just kept Sam oblivious so he wouldn't voice his dis-conscent and it seems Lucifer is messing with Cass's mind to a certain extent in-order to keep him placated and a willing participant. Michael probably did something similar with Adam to keep him a willing participant as well. 

Edited April 8, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[NoWillToResist]

Having just said yesterday that I didn't want Dean to be possessed, I've slightly changed my mind. Having ruminated on this last night, I feel it would be kind of unfair to sideline Dean on the whole Amara issue. He already feels like a failure for releasing her and being unable to kill her.

 

But then there's Cas, who feels utterly useless and a total fuck up too.

So, I've come to a wonderful (for me) compromise: Dean needs to convince Cas to vacate his Lucifer-occupied body and "possess" him so they can team up (Righteous Man and God's favourite [if all the resurrections are any indication of bias]) and defeat Amara TOGETHER. She's confident that Dean can't/won't harm her and doesn't see Cas as a threat at all. It would be lovely if she was taken down by them together.

 

Dean can relax because he'll be keeping Cas safe inside him (no double entendre intended), Cas should come to realize that he matters very much to Dean on a personal level, and they can both improve their self-esteem/image by taking down the big bad. This will also allow Amara/Rowena to fry Lucifer (or throw him back in the cage) without harming Cas. When the dust settles, Cas can then heal his empty body and hop back in.

 

Lucifer and the Darkness are gone, Dean and Cas and Sam are victorious and happy. The end. :D

 

On a side note, I really, really, really want Crowley to let slip to Dean that Cas is mentally hiding out in their bunker's kitchen (rather than that man's sunny Sunday afternoon in a park "happy place" in Heaven we were previously shown was Cas' refuge). Crowley will likely be scornful of that, but I desperately want to see Dean's reaction to that little reveal...

Edited April 8, 2016 by NoWillToResist

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

I Am The Horn Of Joshua, And I Am So Pissed At Everyone In Supernatural
I've been around since Biblical times, and these guys toss me around like a Kleenex?

[Goldmoon]

NoWillToResist:  awesome idea, teaming up Dean and Cas in Dean's vessel.  Dean would only be along for the ride, however it's so brilliant I doubt the writers thought of that!  Love the idea.

[catrox14]

NoWillToResist:  awesome idea, teaming up Dean and Cas in Dean's vessel.  Dean would only be along for the ride, however it's so brilliant I doubt the writers thought of that!  Love the idea.

 

And really Dean only being along for the ride would be in keeping with Dean being along for the ride in general this season...sigh. ...but I'm not bitter. LOL 

[MYFAKETVBOYFRIEND]

And really Dean only being along for the ride would be in keeping with Dean being along for the ride in general this season...sigh. ...but I'm not bitter. LOL 

I just saw this on Reddit-it gives me hope!

"It all ties to Dean being a witness. While the term martyr has become synonymous for a person dying for their beliefs, it's actual definition is "witness." Add on that martyrs were considered to be God's chosen when they died, and you got Dean Winchester as God's Chosen. Something to think on"

[Aeryn13]

Dabb is writing the Finale and you only have to look at the episodes he wrote this Season. They were super-Sam focused. Also, Jared basically said those were the best scripts ever and he got shivers reading them for Sam`s character. Once they brought up "God`s chosen" in this episode, I knew it wouldn`t be Dean. I think in this instance "witness" is meant literally. 

 

At best Dean is gonna be bait but I`m not sure this isn`t dropped, too, because Amara looked at him for a second here but did nothing else to acknowledge his presence. She came because she tracked Rowena. And she left with Lucifer.

 

I did like that the character got some focus. And got to display some power again. The build-up hasn`t been matched with the portrayal so far. By which I don`t mean Emily Swallows. Aside from a few curious acting choices in this episode, I find her fine overall. She isn`t acting evil or manipulative or smarmy but displays an air of detachment that I find befitting for who the character is supposed to be. And she does understand the concept of benevolence - she remarked that she did not sense the capability for kindness or empathy in Rowena - which she even showed herself previously in a childish way.  

 

It`s fine for Lucifer to be smarmy because he`ll be nursing this wounded ego for eternity going by the looks of it. Though he shouldn`t be so terrible at reading a room. Amara took him to punish him and for a second he looked shocked and afraid when his plan failed. Then he tried talking his way out of it which fine, valid strategy if you are outmatched. But Amara laid out her plans for him clearly and he just mocks her. That came across as less hubris but more blind stupidity on his part.

 

I`ve not been a big fan of Rowena. The actress seems like a very sweet person and occassionaly she has a great line delivery when she tones it down but she is too often over the top for me. But she showed much more savvyness then Lucifer here. Her trying to ingratiate herself with Amara in the beginning seemed completely genuine to me. Then Amara displays her powers and Rowena immediately knows "fuck, must abort right now". And her looks of desperation and fear when she hid from both Lucifer and Amara or tried to hide made the character relatable in those moments.

 

You can`t be a flunky in Amara`s new world oder because it`s apparent she wants her own creation and therefore erase God`s creation with everything it it, angels, humans, witches, monsters and demons too (though technically Lucifer`s creation). Who is gonna be around after that for flunky-dom? I don`t know if she still wants Dean as her consort? but if so, he is the only one of the current creation who has a future to look forward to with Amara.          

[dragonsbite]

Now that you have invoked "first born" I'm going to give Buck Leming too much credit that it wasn't a mistak.

 

That would tie it back to "First Born" when Dean first took on the Mark and maybe Dean and Michael will have a role since she seems to think Lucifer was the First Born. I'm hanging my hat on her just plain being uninformed about Michael. If I don't, I'll throw the remote, the pillow, the empty wine bottle at my TV

 

IA about the "first born" references. I hope they're winding up to Dean's being involved again. Perhaps the writers remember that the reason Castiel pulled Dean from Hell was because Dean's a "righteous man" and his being in Hell would cause the 66 seals to start being broken. Or in The Mentalists, that the waiter's affirmation for Dean was, "You are a righteous manifestation of the divine." And in 99 Problems, that Dean manages to kill the Whore of Babylon, who can only be killed by "a true servant of Heaven."  Perhaps we should consider whether Dean is a hand of God.*  And if the writers don't remember this lore, I might even throw one of the cats at the TV.  Also, NoWillToResist, I too considered whether Cas could be the Chosen One. He's definitely been favored by God throughout the series.

 

I'm glad that Dean continues to think of ways to get Cas back. Cas clearly needs an intervention, and it was thoughtful of Crowley to try to coax Cas back to the real world. But I'm pretty sure that only Dean will be successful. 

 

Another observation on the episode:  I'm somewhat underwhelmed by the Dean-Amara interaction. It could have been much more dramatic and interesting rather than buried by Lucifer's grand-standing which was just too long. I liked that Dean reacted to Amara's presence. Not fear, not surprise. But maybe dismay or confusion. As if he still doesn't know how to respond to her.  From the way that Amara looked at him while trying to deal with Lucifer, Dean might be a distraction for her. And she's not sure how he fits into this mess. She didn't come to protect him from Lucifer, so clearly (like last week), she's not going to save Dean from certain death. But does she really need to save him from death, anyway? She just needs (wants-?) his soul because they have some common ground. 

 

 

*Speaking of items touched by God, I would run over to Chuck's place and grab every bottle from the trash.

[NoWillToResist]

NoWillToResist:  awesome idea, teaming up Dean and Cas in Dean's vessel.  Dean would only be along for the ride, however it's so brilliant I doubt the writers thought of that!  Love the idea.

 

 

And really Dean only being along for the ride would be in keeping with Dean being along for the ride in general this season...sigh. ...but I'm not bitter. LOL 

 

I think he will be the only thing (other than God himself) that can bring Cas out of his (self?) imposed exile/funk. If he comes up with an idea that saves Cas, I think Dean would call that a win.

 

However, I didn't mean to imply that Dean would be dormant/useless.

 

I am hoping that Dean is 'special', in a similar way to Cas being special. And that it is only their COMBINED 'specialness' that can prevail over Amara. After all, they have both separately tried to kill her and failed. I see it as a potential jigsaw puzzle, where each one of them brings some required piece to the table and it only works together. I like to think both are good/worthy enough to wield a Hand of God; so we then need Dean's "bond" with Amara to get close enough to her to do the damage and then we'll need Cas' LACK of bond with her to be able to deal the fatal blow (perhaps with a power assist from the merging of the Righteous Man and an angel). One can't succeed without the other. The profound bond would be reaffirmed, no one would die, and I stay happy. :D

Edited April 8, 2016 by NoWillToResist

[shang yiet]

Sigh, again, the focus on Dean's feelings. It's as if Sam and Cas are strangers and only Dean's feelings matter. Whatever, writers.

Awful episode. If this is the first SPN episode you're watching, you would think Casifer, Rowena, Crowley and Amara are the main players. Sam and Dean can just sit frozen while the others take the stage..

Lucifer, so disappointing to see him trying to kill Sam. What happened to that special bond?

Edited April 8, 2016 by shang yiet

[catrox14]

 

Lucifer, so disappointing to see him trying to kill Sam. What happened to that special bond?

 

Lucifer doesn't give a shit about Sam or anyone other than Lucifer. That special bond goes only as far as what benefits Lucifer and Sam's usefulness as his vessel, nothing more, nothing less. 

 

I suspect Amara's bond with Dean is pretty much in the same vein. She needs him for her purposes. Not because she gives a shit about him.

 

Like Aunt, like Nephew...it seems.  

[MysteryGuest]

I do think that Amara freed both Sam and Dean before she left with Lucifer.  I may need to watch again, but I think they were still frozen to their seats at that point, and right before she left, she set them free.

 

Dean and Cas sharing a vessel would certainly make the Destiel/Cockles fans happy.  I actually think it's a cool idea.  I'd like for Cas to be able to get a win out of this somehow, otherwise it's just one more really bad judgment call, in a long line of bad judgment calls for him.  It would be nice if he could play a part in getting rid of Lucifer.  He was such a fierce character when we first met him, but they have definitely changed him into something completely different in recent years.  

[SueB]

*Speaking of items touched by God, I would run over to Chuck's place and grab every bottle from the trash.

10 points for Griffyndor!

 Well played.

[SueB]

So I FINALLY got a proper re-watch.  Real life kicking my ass...

The jumpiness of the episode was less jarring for me the second time around.  As I watched, I kept thinking ... either the script was super uneven or too long and Phil S. made some really poor editing choices.  Specifically:

Too long: the whole teaser, the bickering, the heaven speechifying,

Too short: backstory for where/when/how Rowena found Amara, connective tissue for Rowena leaving Amara and going to the boys, Amara/Dean interaction

A TON of stuff happened in this episode but then they'd have long-winded scenes.  I know B-L split the writing.  I wonder if that's part of the disjointedness.  All I know is that I felt like some stuff got left on the editing floor (either in the writing or the actual post-production editing).  Having crabbed about that, I'll move on to the story points that really got my attention:

 

Hand of God McGuffins are not the answer: from the litany in the previouslies leading up to 'Horn of Joshua' it's becoming evident that this is not the answer.  First one (from The Vessel) was cool.  Now... now it seems like they are almost deliberately inviting us to notice that there is no "special weapon" that is going to do the trick.  Ark of the Covenant, Rod of Aaron, and Horn of Joshua. All legit weapons. All one-hit wonders that even in the most powerful non-God-class entity (aka Casifer) hands, is inadequate to kill Amara.  I found it interesting that the combined smiting from the Angels really set her on her heels (even though they didn't know it) but the Hand of God weapon did not.  I think Dean was onto something with the 'not a Chosen One'.  And if Casifer + Hand of God raw power was less effective than combined Angel smiting.... there's a different solution IMO than "power".  When the Angels, who had been previously bickering, worked together, I don't know if they created more raw power or if just the fact that they were working together made it better.

 

Of course Rowena isn't dead.  I'm really glad she's back but I think it makes sense.  She really flew "without a net" in so many situations.  I'm not all that surprised that she had an ace up her...um thigh...   It reminding me of Meryl Streep and Goldie Hawn in Death Becomes Her (with the neck twisting and all).  But I also liked how quickly Rowena realized how out of her league she was with both Amara and Lucifer.  Pre-death Rowena would have been in there smarming it up.  I think post-death Rowena either has no more lives left and knows it or her experience provided a modicum of caution to her.  In either case, I liked the way Ruth played "terrified".  We hadn't really seen that on Rowena before.  That doesn't mean I think she's going to turn into a good-guy.  But perhaps she'll stop trying to make deals with those who are more powerful.  I also liked how they remembered that Rowena's magic stems from the forces of Nature.  I wish we'd heard more about that.  I presume she was siphoning off the smiting sickness somehow but I really don't know.

 

Outstanding performance by Misha. I really thought his Casifer was spot-on. The way he toyed with the angels in Heaven was good and then his "Cas!" mocking was both perfect and HORRIFIC.  (Of course that was Misha playing Mark Pellegrino playing Lucifer mimicking Dean).  Talk about layers! I really never saw "Cas" when he was "Casifer". I saw Lucifer.  OTOH, when he was "Cas" again, it was so heartwarming and sad.  Watching the two different portrayals made me really miss Cas.  *I'll be sitting over in the corner with Dean rocking back and forth and whispering Cas' name."

 

I feel BAD for Amara. The episode was a reminder that she's essentially a primal force out of synch with THIS universe. She is alone.  And then there's Rowena trying to manipulate her and she sees it.  And it makes me sad that all she gets is lies and manipulations.  Yes, I realized she has to go -- she does want everyone destroyed -- but I feel like her loneliness is a tragedy.  Betrayed (in her mind at least) by God, her nephew, Uncle Crowley, Rowena, and perhaps Dean (she's really confused by Dean... almost as confused as he is by her...).  Is no one Team Amara?  Has anyone in the history of EVER been Team Amara?  Somehow that makes me sad.  I think Emily Swallow does a great job of portraying her like a fish out of water but also one who is becoming increasingly defensive.  Again.. it makes me sad.  I want her brother to show up and somehow make it RIGHT.  Find a place where she can be her own self and yet not isolated.  So kudos to the writers this season (and Emily Swallow) for me feeling bad for an "amoral destructive force".

 

Bottom Line:  Although some horribly uneven moments in the script, this episodes' plot and acting had me very engaged. I really want to see where the mytharc is going to go.

[catrox14]

 

as to go -- she does want everyone destroyed -- but I feel like her loneliness is a tragedy.  Betrayed (in her mind at least) by God, her nephew, Uncle Crowley, Rowena, and perhaps Dean (she's really confused by Dean... almost as confused as he is by her...).  Is no one Team Amara?  Has anyone in the history of EVER been Team Amara?

 

She has all the souls that she's sucked out in her belly for companionship.

 

I just can't feel sorry for this entity that that was locked away when she locks away souls inside her and leaves the vessel like poor Len and the bar chick. And she just zaps Dean around when it suits her. She's a billions year old entity with God powers seeking vengeance. She might be gaming everyone with this "Poor me" I'm so misunderstood and lonely and my brother did me wrong...when we still don't know exactly WHY he locked her away.

 

And I don't think she is all that confused about Dean other than he tried kill her and I think she's pinged that he loves Cas. I don't think she really got that until this episode. 

[dr pepper]

What i find annoying is that the Horn was just like the previous two items: a battery charged with a single use of Power Word Whammy. That makes its actual form irrelevant. It should have had some ability related to the fact that it's, hello, a *horn*! And has a backstory as a *horn*! Instead of Power Word Whammy, it should have had Destructive Vibration, activated when someone blew it!

[mertensia]

We don't know that they only have one charge though. We only know it had one for Lucifer.

[catrox14]

What i find annoying is that the Horn was just like the previous two items: a battery charged with a single use of Power Word Whammy. That makes its actual form irrelevant. It should have had some ability related to the fact that it's, hello, a *horn*! And has a backstory as a *horn*! Instead of Power Word Whammy, it should have had Destructive Vibration, activated when someone blew it!

 

I think it could be that all of the items have to be used together. I'm thinking of a Power Circle thing, where the right person has to touch the right item.  So they can just play hot potato with each item to figure out who has the right touch for each item

[DittyDotDot]

So I FINALLY got a proper re-watch.  Real life kicking my ass...

The jumpiness of the episode was less jarring for me the second time around.  As I watched, I kept thinking ... either the script was super uneven or too long and Phil S. made some really poor editing choices.  Specifically:

Too long: the whole teaser, the bickering, the heaven speechifying,

Too short: backstory for where/when/how Rowena found Amara, connective tissue for Rowena leaving Amara and going to the boys, Amara/Dean interaction

A TON of stuff happened in this episode but then they'd have long-winded scenes.  I know B-L split the writing.  I wonder if that's part of the disjointedness.  All I know is that I felt like some stuff got left on the editing floor (either in the writing or the actual post-production editing).  Having crabbed about that, I'll move on to the story points that really got my attention:

 

This is totally the Horrible Duo's MO. They overpack their scripts with enough plot to fill three episodes and pile on the monologuing and "philosiphying" speeches, but almost always are very disjointed as a result. Based on their history, I would put money on this is the way it was scripted and not much of anything ending up on the cutting room floor.  Apparently TPTB like this approach since no one has reined them in over the last few years.

 

Of course Rowena isn't dead.  I'm really glad she's back but I think it makes sense.  She really flew "without a net" in so many situations.  I'm not all that surprised that she had an ace up her...um thigh...   

 

I agree, I'm glad she's back and I too think it makes a certain amount of sense. Well as much sense as anything else makes in this universe. My only issue really is they made her so powerful here it makes it hard to believe she was ever on the run from the Grand Coven. But, then again, maybe she wasn't? I speculated back when she was introduced she came out and made her presence known for a reason. Perhaps she's like the angels in S4, just been waiting for a certain set of circumstances to set the stage? 

 

Hand of God McGuffins are not the answer: from the litany in the previouslies leading up to 'Horn of Joshua' it's becoming evident that this is not the answer.  First one (from The Vessel) was cool.  Now... now it seems like they are almost deliberately inviting us to notice that there is no "special weapon" that is going to do the trick.  Ark of the Covenant, Rod of Aaron, and Horn of Joshua. All legit weapons. All one-hit wonders that even in the most powerful non-God-class entity (aka Casifer) hands, is inadequate to kill Amara.  I found it interesting that the combined smiting from the Angels really set her on her heels (even though they didn't know it) but the Hand of God weapon did not.  I think Dean was onto something with the 'not a Chosen One'.  And if Casifer + Hand of God raw power was less effective than combined Angel smiting.... there's a different solution IMO than "power".  When the Angels, who had been previously bickering, worked together, I don't know if they created more raw power or if just the fact that they were working together made it better.

 

I'm not sure the Hands of God are not going to be the answer in the end. They definitely could be a McGuffin, but it reminds me of how they collected the Horsemen rings in S5. They appeared to be useless until the end of the season when they were put together to open Lucifer's cage. I'm thinking something similar might happen with these Hands of God.

 

It could be something like catrox said, a Power Circle with an object for a specific person. Or they just need to be put together and used by one person. Or perhaps it's the fact they've been powered down that is the key? Perhaps theses used up Hands of God together will draw Amara's power out of her somehow and then the power from them can be funneled through God's chosen to kill her or lock her back up? 

 

Lots of possibilities here, I think.

 

I feel BAD for Amara. The episode was a reminder that she's essentially a primal force out of synch with THIS universe. She is alone.  And then there's Rowena trying to manipulate her and she sees it.  And it makes me sad that all she gets is lies and manipulations.  Yes, I realized she has to go -- she does want everyone destroyed -- but I feel like her loneliness is a tragedy.  Betrayed (in her mind at least) by God, her nephew, Uncle Crowley, Rowena, and perhaps Dean (she's really confused by Dean... almost as confused as he is by her...).  Is no one Team Amara?  Has anyone in the history of EVER been Team Amara?  Somehow that makes me sad.  I think Emily Swallow does a great job of portraying her like a fish out of water but also one who is becoming increasingly defensive.  Again.. it makes me sad.  I want her brother to show up and somehow make it RIGHT.  Find a place where she can be her own self and yet not isolated.  So kudos to the writers this season (and Emily Swallow) for me feeling bad for an "amoral destructive force".

 

I agree about Amara being lonely and getting bitter about it. I don't feel all that sorry for her yet, but that could change, I guess? However, this right here might be what is drawing her to Dean. In many ways this is Dean--betrayed, manipulated and abandoned by almost everyone he knows at one time or another--difference is, there are some people on Team Dean.

 

This totally reminds me of how Lucifer thought Sam would understand him back in S5 because he thought they had so much in common. 

Edited April 9, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[Demented Daisy]

I'm not sure the Hands of God are not going to be the answer in the end. They definitely could be a McGuffin, but it reminds me of how they collected the Horsemen rings in S5. They appeared to be useless until the end of the season when they were put together to open Lucifer's cage. I'm thinking something similar might happen with these Hands of God.

 

It's funny.  I was thinking that they might do a Charmed-like circle/pentagram, with 3-5 characters, each having their own Hand of God weapon.  I was thinking that someone might get sucked into the Empty/Void/whatever with Amara, but finally rejected the idea because it seemed too similar to not just the S7 finale, but also the S4 finale of Haven with William and the book and the lighthouse.

 

Now you've got me wondering again....

[DittyDotDot]

It's funny.  I was thinking that they might do a Charmed-like circle/pentagram, with 3-5 characters, each having their own Hand of God weapon.  I was thinking that someone might get sucked into the Empty/Void/whatever with Amara, but finally rejected the idea because it seemed too similar to not just the S7 finale, but also the S4 finale of Haven with William and the book and the lighthouse.

 

Now you've got me wondering again....

 

Well, given how usually one brother ends up dead or in another plane of existence every other year coupled with the show's increasing reliance on magic/spells/witch solutions, I'd say it's  not that far-fetched, myself. ;)

[mertensia]

I think they *both* should end up in whatever dimension.

[MysteryGuest]

Interesting take on Amara.  I can see her being a sympathetic character, to a point.  We only have one side of the story so far.  God locked her away, but did he really do it because she was evil, or was it a power grab on his part like she's claiming?  She only seems intent on destroying what he created to get his attention, not because she specifically hates humanity.  I don't really see how they resolve any of this in a satisfactory way, which is why I still wish they just hadn't gone this way with the story.  Unless they plan on giving us the whole back story of how these two, God and Amara, came to be, I'm going to feel cheated.  Just killing her or locking her away again isn't going to be enough for me.  

[catrox14]

Interesting take on Amara.  I can see her being a sympathetic character, to a point.  We only have one side of the story so far.  God locked her away, but did he really do it because she was evil, or was it a power grab on his part like she's claiming?  She only seems intent on destroying what he created to get his attention, not because she specifically hates humanity.  I don't really see how they resolve any of this in a satisfactory way, which is why I still wish they just hadn't gone this way with the story.  Unless they plan on giving us the whole back story of how these two, God and Amara, came to be, I'm going to feel cheated.  Just killing her or locking her away again isn't going to be enough for me.  

 

And I won't be satisfied with given the whole back story so close to the end of the season. This has been a pattern under Carver maybe Dabb now where they don't keep the focus on Sam and Dean in their own damn arc in the last episodes of the season. IMO if they spend an episode explaining the argument between Nerdy Chuck and Beautiful Amara this close to the end...without tying it directly to Sam and Dean...well I'll be really annoyed. AGAIN.

[MysteryGuest]

I'm with you, Catrox.  It appears that Rob will be in at least a few of the remaining episodes, so your scenario is very possible.  And since I'm on record for not wanting Chuck to be God, I'm going to be even more disappointed if we have to sit through an episode of sibling rivalry between the two entities.  

 

I do not watch a lot of television, and I normally don't ever pay attention to who writes what, but is it normal for shows like Supernatural to have so many different writers?  When you have a show with nothing but stand-alone episodes, I don't think it really matters, but when you have a serial like SPN with one major story arc, I don't think having a different writer every episode is a good idea.  I know it's not a big budget show, so we're not getting cream of the crop here, but I really wish the writing could be better.  It seems like such a waste of a great cast and an interesting concept.

[Aeryn13]

 

I do not watch a lot of television, and I normally don't ever pay attention to who writes what, but is it normal for shows like Supernatural to have so many different writers?

 

Actually yes. And it is usually no problem if you have a good showrunner or at least someone who runs a tight ship on continuity so everything flows together well. One or two writers just writing an entire Season is nearly unfeasible. Most of the times episodes are written concurrently. Not one after the other.

 

J.M. Straczinski once wrote every script for, I believe, the 4th Season of Babylon 5. That nearly killed the man. So multiple writers is absolutely normal. 

[catrox14]

I'm with you, Catrox.  It appears that Rob will be in at least a few of the remaining episodes, so your scenario is very possible.  And since I'm on record for not wanting Chuck to be God, I'm going to be even more disappointed if we have to sit through an episode of sibling rivalry between the two entities.  

 

I do not watch a lot of television, and I normally don't ever pay attention to who writes what, but is it normal for shows like Supernatural to have so many different writers?  When you have a show with nothing but stand-alone episodes, I don't think it really matters, but when you have a serial like SPN with one major story arc, I don't think having a different writer every episode is a good idea.  I know it's not a big budget show, so we're not getting cream of the crop here, but I really wish the writing could be better.  It seems like such a waste of a great cast and an interesting concept.

 

I think most shows that have 23 episodes have larger writing staff.  I think it's the shorter run series or ones on HBO that have one or two maybe 3 writers. But for long series like SPN the head writer or the showrunner has control over the story arcs etc but doesn't necessarily write all the episodes.

Edited April 9, 2016 by catrox14

[MysteryGuest]

Then apparently a better show runner is the answer.

Edited April 9, 2016 by MysteryGuest

[catrox14]

Then apparently a better show runner is the answer.

 

 

I think because Carver got this new pilot his focus shifted. I think its  fair to think that Dabb or Thompson will be a new showrunner if Carver's pilot gets picked up unless they hire someone completely outside for s12.

[rue721]

And since I'm on record for not wanting Chuck to be God, I'm going to be even more disappointed if we have to sit through an episode of sibling rivalry between the two entities. 

 

Wow, that would be terrible. Especially since I'm still not understanding how Amara and God are even siblings. Aren't they just antithesis of each other -- the dark and the light? It's not like they have parents or "grew up" together, I don't think, so how can they have a "sibling" kind of relationship?

 

The Darkness thing still isn't working for me because I'm still not able to wrap my head around the concept of The Darkness being personified and having "spats" with God. And I'm not understanding what the consequences were of God locking her away -- I mean, we still have darkness every night. Everyone has metaphorical "darkness" in them in the SPN world, even angels. So it seems like "the dark" was just kept in check, not actually imprisoned? But the show keeps making it sound like she was literally, physically locked up somewhere. And it seems like there aren't even big consequences to her being out, because she just is sucking up mortal souls that would otherwise have been harvested by reapers and used as power generators in Heaven or Hell. God already created humans, gave them souls, and made everyone mortal -- so Amara sucking up some people's souls or even killing some people seems like kind of small potatoes in comparison imo.

 

Idk, this whole thing is too abstract-yet-halfbaked for me. I want to go back to having like, one demon or something be the season's Big Bad. I'm really enjoying a lot about this season, but the OTT mytharc is its weak link imo.

[MysteryGuest]

Rue, you've summed up my feelings on this season, exactly!  While there have been episodes I've enjoyed a great deal, I really have not been onboard with the story arc from the very beginning.  It's too big and just absurd, really.  And I can't for the life of me figure out where they intend to go from here.  I was really hoping that once the Mark was finally gotten rid of, they'd have backed away from the "God" storyline.  I'm bored with the angels and the demons, with the exception of Cas and Crowley.  I'd have much preferred "The Darkness" to be something more like the Leviathans...only better.

[DittyDotDot]

Wow, that would be terrible. Especially since I'm still not understanding how Amara and God are even siblings. Aren't they just antithesis of each other -- the dark and the light? It's not like they have parents or "grew up" together, I don't think, so how can they have a "sibling" kind of relationship?

 

The Darkness thing still isn't working for me because I'm still not able to wrap my head around the concept of The Darkness being personified and having "spats" with God. And I'm not understanding what the consequences were of God locking her away -- I mean, we still have darkness every night. Everyone has metaphorical "darkness" in them in the SPN world, even angels. So it seems like "the dark" was just kept in check, not actually imprisoned? But the show keeps making it sound like she was literally, physically locked up somewhere. And it seems like there aren't even big consequences to her being out, because she just is sucking up mortal souls that would otherwise have been harvested by reapers and used as power generators in Heaven or Hell. God already created humans, gave them souls, and made everyone mortal -- so Amara sucking up some people's souls or even killing some people seems like kind of small potatoes in comparison imo.

 

Idk, this whole thing is too abstract-yet-halfbaked for me. I want to go back to having like, one demon or something be the season's Big Bad. I'm really enjoying a lot about this season, but the OTT mytharc is its weak link imo.

 

Ironically, I was just saying something similar to someone about why the first couple seasons of the show work much better for me before they tried to reach so big with the mythology. I guess Amara and God are sisters in the same way Michael, Lucifer, Gabriel and Co. are brothers... . 

[auntvi]

Idk, this whole thing is too abstract-yet-halfbaked for me.

It doesn't help that Amara herself is just :blah:. I don't know if the fault is with the writing or the actor or both, but there's nothing god-like about her. For example, her voice: the accent is flat American, her vocabulary is standard, modern American. I know it's a trope of US television that god-like and evil characters speak in a British accent, but it usually works because it sets the character apart, different. There's nothing special about Amara.

[catrox14]

Rue, you've summed up my feelings on this season, exactly!  While there have been episodes I've enjoyed a great deal, I really have not been onboard with the story arc from the very beginning.  It's too big and just absurd, really.  And I can't for the life of me figure out where they intend to go from here.  I was really hoping that once the Mark was finally gotten rid of, they'd have backed away from the "God" storyline.  I'm bored with the angels and the demons, with the exception of Cas and Crowley.  I'd have much preferred "The Darkness" to be something more like the Leviathans...only better.

 

I think about Dark Side of the Moon, or The End..What Is and What Should Never Be. .where things are not quite what they seem. Like a storyscape that isn't quite real. Because it's alternately too big and then too small. But if it's used to end up telling a more personal journey for Dean and Sam...I can live with this.

 

That would make all of this work for me. Because if this is supposed to be straightforward storytelling..it's not working.

  YMMV

Edited April 9, 2016 by catrox14

[SueB]

How I interpreted the look on Crowley's face during this scene:

[auntvi]

Some sort of dreamscape would help make sense of both Amara and Dean this season, but if that's what they're going for, they're not making it clear to me. Just a few woo-woo special effects would help. ;-)

 

 

[bethy]

I think the issue for me is that in taking the conflict to the God-level, they essentially made Dean and Sam useless in their own story. This episode focused on characters who can do something (I guess), but who I have no interest in. I don't want to watch Lucifer-in-Cass manipulate a bunch of stupid, bureaucrat angels. I don't care about Amara or Crowley's mom. The way Misha plays Lucifer is painful to me - I know he took tips from Mark Pellegrino, but it is NOT working for me. MP manages sinister with his weird flirting; Misha only manages creepy and awkward for me. What was left was Dean and Sam bickering and standing around (or being rendered motionless), basically unable to do anything of value. Boring.

 

I would imagine - unless Supernatural has jumped on the bandwagon and decided to kill off one or both of its main characters - that somehow, in the end, the Winchesters will defeat Amara and put Lucifer back in his cage. But spending the mytharc episodes watching them flounder around is not scintillating television in my book.

 

And what makes it even more jarring is that there are, what, two or three or four MOW episodes between each mytharc episode, so even though Sam has his obligatory "We're not finding anything about Amara, let's take a case" line each week, when we get dropped back into the Darkness storyline, I have a hard time remembering what's happening. Which is probably exacerbated by the fact that I really don't care.  

Edited April 9, 2016 by bethy

[catrox14]

You know....I really hated that entire line. Like this is just typical asshole B-L writing. 

 

Like I'm sorry Dean has been less than interested in sex this season. From what I can tell. He's not flirting with anyone. And in his moments of major Cas crisis they have to throw in a line about Dean getting laid and it's about kinky sex. So it's reducing Dean again to his base level of sex and it's kink shaming to boot! 

 

I mean WTF show. Same thing with The Bad Seed.  Dean is worried sick about Cas but let's make sure we throw in a moment of him checking out a chick. It's just ridiculous. It's out of place.

 

[SueB]

Excellent .gif usage. The line Dean used wasn't particularly funny to me... it was Crowley's reaction.  He's SUCH a Dean-boy. 

 

Also interesting in this episode is that Amara doesn't seem to be able to just "find" Dean.  Now perhaps it was a test for Rowena's loyalties, but it seems like she asked Rowena to "find" the boys using her "wings of Titania" spell. OR did Rowena suggest she could find the Winchesters as a demonstration of  her powers?  And maybe Rowena picked the boys rather than Crowley because she didn't want to risk seeing Lucifer?  Regardless, if she's telling the truth, she followed Rowena to get to the boys versus just having some innate ability to find Dean (or Sam) on her own. 

 

I keep thinking of Rowena as on a different frequency than God.  So she has power but it doesn't have the same flavor.

[catrox14]

Some sort of dreamscape would help make sense of both Amara and Dean this season, but if that's what they're going for, they're not making it clear to me. Just a few woo-woo special effects would help. ;-)

 

I've been floating  a theory since 11.01 that Dean waking up in those flowers is a clue. My first thought was Dean was Dorothy in Oz in some way or that removing the Mark broke Dean mentally and psychologically. 

 

Since they kept making it into a drug addiction analogy, I was surprised he didn't experience withdrawal. To me just ripping off the Mark would be like asking a heroin addict to go cold turkey. 

 

Or maybe that Sam or Dean are dead in the empty and this is tied to getting them back..or helping Dean fix himself like Charlie did with this whole thing.  Like I even wondered if Rowena removing the Mark from Dean put a spell on him too. 

 

At minimum "I'm sticking with things are not as they seem, Denmark is rotten". That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Edited April 9, 2016 by catrox14

[rue721]

And what makes it even more jarring is that there are, what, two or three or four MOW episodes between each mytharc episode, so even though Sam has his obligatory "We're not finding anything about Amara, let's take a case" line each week, when we get dropped back into the Darkness storyline, I have a hard time remembering what's happening. Which is probably exacerbated by the fact that I really don't care.  

 

Heard, Bethy. I agree.

 

I'll take the rest of my bitching to the Bitterness thread tonight. But just in direct response to your post:  it probably exacerbates my apathy toward Amara that Sam and Dean just don't seem that scared of her, either. Everyone keeps talking about how guilty the guys feel about letting her loose. Screw guilt, I want some terror! LOL.

[MysteryGuest]

I didn't like that line of Dean's either.  I really do enjoy the humor in SPN most of the time, but this episode should have been more dramatic than it was.  All of the silly bickering between Sam and Dean, and Sam and Dean and Crowley just went on far too long.  Considering all they crammed into the episode, that time could have been much better spent on furthering the storyline.  

 

I hated the Casifer in heaven scenes because I really hate how they portray the angels.  They are so completely bland and boring...why even show them?  Actually, the angels and demons are interchangeable on this show, and not in a good way.  I know that Jensen and Jared can't be in every scene, but then they need to come up with something else that's interesting for Cas and Crowley to do.  Most times when the J's aren't onscreen, it just means I don't really need to pay attention.

[Wynne88]

I hate that whole warehouse concept of Heaven, along with the middle-managers, the conference room, and the weird machine that lets them check on the inhabitants through the doors.  My heaven is not going to be like that.  *I hope*  I don't think they should ever have tried to actually portray heaven or hell (although Crowley endless lines were clever).

 

I wonder if the contract that Crowley tore up in the beginning was the correct one for that man's soul?  If so, I wonder where he kept it that he could access it despite all the demons looking for him.   I also noticed that the demons in the car who were hunting him had angel blades.  Man, everybody has one now.  The angel blade factory must have been putting in overtime.

 

All of the silly bickering between Sam and Dean, and Sam and Dean and Crowley just went on far too long.  Considering all they crammed into the episode, that time could have been much better spent on furthering the storyline.

 

Agreed.  Maybe they could have spent a moment on Rowena's return, instead of just showing her standing around in the background without any explanation.

 

My last complaint is about the conversation in the bunker about going after Cas.  I'm glad they understood each other because having Sam and Dean go to the effort of specifically stating what their policy is, then apparently deciding to ignore it, seemed dumb to me.

 

I didn't actually dislike the episode, despite all the gripes above.  Just not one of my favorites.

[FlickChick]

My last complaint is about the conversation in the bunker about going after Cas.  I'm glad they understood each other because having Sam and Dean go to the effort of specifically stating what their policy is, then apparently deciding to ignore it, seemed dumb to me.

Perhaps it was a tongue-in-cheek throw back to S8. Sam followed the "agreement" (or policy) and didn't look for Dean. Now they are both agreeing to throw out any such nonsense and get the real Cas back. Seems like the kind of thing these writers would do.

[catrox14]

 

My last complaint is about the conversation in the bunker about going after Cas.  I'm glad they understood each other because having Sam and Dean go to the effort of specifically stating what their policy is, then apparently deciding to ignore it, seemed dumb to me.

 

I had a little different take on that conversation. I thought Sam was humoring Dean in the moment. I think Sam loves Cas but IMO I don't think Sam is quite as on board with 'bring the idiot home" as Dean thinks because Sam is thinking about saving the world from Amara. 

 

I've been waiting for Sam to be faced with his own words in 11.01 re "can't keep saving each other over humanity" and that he would have to make that choice regarding Dean, but I've changed my mind. IMO Cas being declared family unambiguously, means Dean will do anything to save Cas. IMO Sam will be faced with stopping Dean from saving Cas because the world will be at stake.  And that is going to be HORRIBLE :(.

Edited April 9, 2016 by catrox14

[SueB]

I hate that whole warehouse concept of Heaven, along with the middle-managers, the conference room, and the weird machine that lets them check on the inhabitants through the doors.  My heaven is not going to be like that.  *I hope*  I don't think they should ever have tried to actually portray heaven or hell (although Crowley endless lines were clever).

 

I wonder if the contract that Crowley tore up in the beginning was the correct one for that man's soul?  If so, I wonder where he kept it that he could access it despite all the demons looking for him.   I also noticed that the demons in the car who were hunting him had angel blades.  Man, everybody has one now.  The angel blade factory must have been putting in overtime.

 

Agreed.  Maybe they could have spent a moment on Rowena's return, instead of just showing her standing around in the background without any explanation.

 

My last complaint is about the conversation in the bunker about going after Cas.  I'm glad they understood each other because having Sam and Dean go to the effort of specifically stating what their policy is, then apparently deciding to ignore it, seemed dumb to me.

 

I didn't actually dislike the episode, despite all the gripes above.  Just not one of my favorites.

 

I'm glad you mentioned this.  I was a little torn about it. At first I was like "Yes!" because I want Cas back.  Then the whole "isn't that hypocritical" line of reasoning went through my head.  But I finally settled on two good juicy rationalizations:

1) "two man rule" - it's sort of one that is used in some of my work life. Basically, because they've bounced the idea off of each other and both agree that's there's a good reason WHY the individuals' desires shouldn't be heeded.  Because Team Free Will has three people (when Cas is in an episode) this is a safety net that it's at least thought through.

2) the specific reason: it's not clear Cas is acting of his own free will anymore. Although they didn't see inside Cas' head, Crowley told them that Lucifer has "his hooks too deep" into Cas.  FIrst when Sam spoke to Cas in The Vessel and Cas said he 'wanted to be of service', it was evident he chose this.  Debateable logic, but chose this.  But he also clearly fought Lucifer for control during that episode AND Lucifer was about to kill Sam and Dean (which Cas would NEVER approve of) when Sam hit the Angel-B-Gone sigil. SO, it's reasonable to assume Cas is under-distress.  I could see Sam's logic to support Casifer taking out Amara (strong vessel for an Archangel's power). It's risks Cas' life but Dean's "find another vessel" was a sketchy option at best.  So, circumstances allowed Casifer to take his shot and he failed.  So, at this point, Cas' original rationale is no longer in tact. And if Cas COULD kick Lucifer out, there's reason to believe he would.  SO... I think there is rationale established that both Cas is in a debilitated state AND his actual wishes are no longer to be Lucifer's vessel. 

 

And now that he is a prisoner of Amara, who seems to intend Casifer harm.... he needs rescuing.

 

So, at the end of the day, I'm okay with the decision.  Could it have been written better?  Please, it's Buckner-Lemming.  They can mess up a lunch menu.