S04.E01: Glanders

[sistermagpie]

I'm just saying that the trip, combined with the pastor telling someone in law enforcement, would justify further investigation.

 

 

But isn't the investigation already warranted? It just seems odd for somebody to totally not believe the girl saying her parents told her they're spies until you see that she and her travel agent mom went to West Germany for a week. It's when it comes to the passport they're overly suspicious, drawing conclusions based on a trip to Western Europe but when it comes to the testimony of their child they're overly skeptical and see no reason to even look into it. If they run her ss# they can look up and see she died in 1946 or whatever. If the local law enforcement won't do it based on Paige's testimony I don't quite get why they'd change their minds when they discover Elizabeth recently went to Germany. 

 

 

 

Yes, but to have Martha wear a wire, they need a reason to think Paige isn't just some fanciful teenager making up stories for attention or because she hates her parents, or has a mental issue.  The passport, for me, supplies that.

 

 

I think the Martha wire scenario that was floated was about a theory that Martha herself had told Gaad that she had a husband who was a spy. So there too there's no need for a wire. Once they have Martha telling them that this person is a potential spy they can investigate the person any number of ways. Getting him on tape saying he tried to make Gene's death quick or that he wants surveillance reports is unnecessary since they already have Martha to tell them that and telling them he's the spy. His whole ID as Clark Westerfield could be quickly demolished before they snatched him. Same thing with Paige's story. The girl says her mom's living under a false ID so why waste time with wondering about her trip to Germany? Just run her SS# and you get to the same place faster. 

 

I haven't seen Deutschland 83, but now I want to!

 

 

If you're into spy stories it's definitely one to add to the collection. It's very different in tone, of course. The main character is basically an amateur who's roped into going undercover in West Germany.

 

It's probably why she's not as good at fitting in among the Americans as Philip is, since Phil somehow, without even trying, developed a more traditionally Western worldview: Life should be easy and safe and carefree, and if you try to make it hard I'll kill you!

 

 

I think the thing with Elizabeth isn't necessarily that she's more Russian but that we see that her upbringing was very clear in how it related to the Revolution. Her mother told her the war memorial wasn't for her father because he was a coward and a deserter, implying that if Elizabeth wavered she wouldn't be honored by her mother so much either. When Elizabeth was tapped by the KGB her mother immediately said she had to go. She just sent her daughter away, didn't ask Elizabeth what she felt. But I don't think that would have been the standard reaction of every Russian parent. Philip and Elizabeth do differ, I think, in that Elizabeth is inherently suspicious of a life of ease and thinks it leads to a soft character while Philip seems to me at least to have more of an attitude that you should enjoy perks you can because they might be gone tomorrow and you'll have to adapt to nothing. So to me I guess it seems like they're both having different but logical reactions to early lessons that life was hard. 

 

Elizabeth also seems to have been explicitly taught at home that hard life=strong character while Philip maybe just thought hard life=hard life. I could believe that he, too, thought his hard life made him stronger than his kids--he said as much to Gabriel. But he's accepted that his kids are soft while Elizabeth thinks she's failed as a parent if they are.

[gwhh]

For a moment likes say Pastor Tim is JUST a pastor.  Any sort of Christian Evangelical type outfit during the Cold War.  LOVED to convert any atheist / commie back to the good book!  I mean that the holy grail for them.  So when Paige tells him they are "Russian / soviets" that could just mean in his mind they are "fellow travels" commie speak for believers in communist.  After they find the Lord as there savior they will no longer be Godless Commie anymore! Hat trick alert for the Lord! 

 

My mom taught children in public schools of this age for many years and you would be surprised at how many stories you get from them.  Even ones that come from good homes.  They are just learning to tell the difference from fact and fantasy.  So this type of story would not even faze most people who work with children this age!

 

Another big point is doing the Cold War.  The illegals program was NOT known among the general public.  Yes, most people knew that the KGB sent agents to live in the USA.  But not along the lines of DEEP cover such as this!  Even today VERY little is known about the actual program that could be called fact.  Remember, the illegals were strategic level asset in the cold war.  Equal to spy satellites, or ballistic nuclear missiles subs!  Game changer at all levels!

 

The Soviet Union After WW2 was basically hell on earth.  27 million dead out of population of 110 million.  Everything west of Moscow gone, etc.  Lots of children like Phillip running around.  No family, so the KGB can do what ever they want with him.  Plus orphans are very east to make obey.  Give them love and purpose and you own them for life.  Add on an instant family, they will love that also!

 

Maybe Martha found out her "husband" got another wife and I see that gun coming out because of that! 

 

Elizabeth kills for "king and county".   Phillip killing for "king and county" and MAYBE because he likes it!!

 

I am so happy to hear the end of Phillip and Serbian street gang story. 

 

To be honest.  if I caught my parents 69 each other at that age (and there age) and they told me they were actually KGB illegal agents.  I would be like "thank GOD, so those were actually your evil KGB doubles I saw doing that and not YOU!!  Now I can sleep again!!

Edited March 19, 2016 by gwhh

[Umbelina]

First the police (probably who the pastor would contact first, although maybe since he lives in Falls Church or thereabout, perhaps the FBI) would have to believe it wasn't a nut on the phone, or that he had anything credible, other than an unknown teenager's partial story about that though.  That's what I'm trying to say here.  The FBI would probably look into any claims, someone at the switchboard for the police?  Probably gets a lot of "nut" calls or crank calls, and may not, or may just tell the guy to call back with more information.

 

It was just something about that line delivery that makes me think it's important.  It didn't feel right to me when he said that to Paige, felt like someone else's words in his mouth somehow.  I could easily be wrong...we shall see.  My main point is, if he is doubted, and Paige tells him about the Germany trip, the passport would be the "proof" needed that there might be something to the teenager's tale. 

 

So IF they looked into that, even by rote, they could also look into the person she traveled with.  They mentioned it a couple of times on the show, and I don't think it's by accident that they have, that Elizabeth traveled on her own passport, with NO problem. 

 

My general idea is, yeah, no problem YET.  Ha.

 

It's always those little details that screw you up.  From there?  It's an easy hop to check out where they stayed in Germany, a very well regulated country, and as I said, full of spies and agents.  Hotel records, dates and times checked in and out?  If it had been a KGB op, I'm sure they would have covered those bases, but this was a Philip op, without support, so I'm guessing, yeah, not so neat.  If they really did only stay two days and didn't cover their asses with museum visits, and stubs, restaurants receipts, which after all, are tax deductible for Elizabeth as a travel agent...MORE questions.

[Cosmocrush]

They're blatantly making the wigs a  sight gag at this point. They must be!

Can someone please refresh my memory - when did Phillip stop wearing the wig/mustache with Martha?  I was startled to see them together in his natural state.  I didn't do a rewatch of S3 so I'm forgetting some details.  

Edited March 18, 2016 by Cosmocrush

[JennyMominFL]

 

It's always those little details that screw you up.  From there?  It's an easy hop to check out where they stayed in Germany, a very well regulated country, and as I said, full of spies and agents.  Hotel records, dates and times checked in and out?  If it had been a KGB op, I'm sure they would have covered those bases, but this was a Philip op, without support, so I'm guessing, yeah, not so neat.  If they really did only stay two days and didn't cover their asses with museum visits, and stubs, restaurants receipts, which after all, are tax deductible for Elizabeth as a travel agent...MORE questions.

I have a feeling we may see repercussions this season. Not much time has elapsed yet.

[gwhh]

They have to cut corners in this show SOMEWHERE. 

 

Its not network TV!!

 

That explains that! 

 

 

That was the oddest-looking bunch of random kids. Some didn't even appear to be teenagers.

 

Why is Paige in a class with all Down syndrome children?

That was the oddest-looking bunch of random kids. Some didn't even appear to be teenagers.

[Umbelina]

http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/04/15/the-americans-recap-abassin-zadran/

 

Episode 12 last year.

 

ETA, also, I didn't mind the wigs last night.  I really did know guys like Philip, with the old fashioned Beatles hair and full beards in the eighties.  Ha.

Can someone please refresh my memory - when did Phillip stop wearing the wig/mustache with Martha?  I was startled to see them together in his natural state.  

He removes the wig in what looks like a moment of desperation when Martha is about to leave him. His eyes say he wants Martha to stay, and that to keep her, he will reveal another layer of himself. It’s possible that he simply fears losing her as a potential agent, or that it’s just a matter of retaining control over her and what she knows. Where did she think she was going, anyway? Leaving Clark and returning to her parents’ house, even for a little while, would not fool Walter Taffet and company. It might not even fool Stan Beeman.

 

Edited March 18, 2016 by Umbelina

[Hecate7]

Agree with you, AlliMo and just hoping that it's not Elizabeth or Paige who has to kill Martha. I want to be wrong because I find Martha fascinating, but to save the fab four,  would give her up.

 

I think but am not 100% sure Claudia was in the previews and whenever she shows up, bodies tend to accumulate at a higher rate.

 

I was just thinking the same thing. I could see a scenario in which Elizabeth does it because Philip is ordered to do it and she does it for him to spare him the awful pain of doing it himself, because she knows what that's like.

[Umbelina]

Oh, I meant to say, several times but forgot, YES to all of those who want Nina back in the main story.  I hope they find a way to do that, or at least, to make her story of life in Russia more interesting.  Maybe the husband will do that.  Honestly, it seems more realistic that she never returns, and would end up in a labor camp (for as long as she survived)  there.  That could be interesting too.  She's got it made right now, as good as it gets really for someone in her position as an enemy of Russia.  Seeing her in a real gulag could be pretty cool, sad, scary, but real.

 

Also, I really thought Martha would die long ago.  The actress is seriously bringing it in her scenes though, she just exploded into being interesting last season, so I kind of hope she lasts a while.  The actress has much more range than I realized during her early dumbo scenes.

Edited March 18, 2016 by Umbelina

[Anne Elk]

But isn't the investigation already warranted? It just seems odd for somebody to totally not believe the girl saying her parents told her they're spies until you see that she and her travel agent mom went to West Germany for a week. It's when it comes to the passport they're overly suspicious, drawing conclusions based on a trip to Western Europe but when it comes to the testimony of their child they're overly skeptical and see no reason to even look into it. If they run her ss# they can look up and see she died in 1946 or whatever. If the local law enforcement won't do it based on Paige's testimony I don't quite get why they'd change their minds when they discover Elizabeth recently went to Germany. 

 

 

 

I think the Martha wire scenario that was floated was about a theory that Martha herself had told Gaad that she had a husband who was a spy. So there too there's no need for a wire. Once they have Martha telling them that this person is a potential spy they can investigate the person any number of ways. Getting him on tape saying he tried to make Gene's death quick or that he wants surveillance reports is unnecessary since they already have Martha to tell them that and telling them he's the spy. His whole ID as Clark Westerfield could be quickly demolished before they snatched him. Same thing with Paige's story. The girl says her mom's living under a false ID so why waste time with wondering about her trip to Germany? Just run her SS# and you get to the same place faster. 

 

 

It will take more than a quick ss# check. Remember, this is 1983 -- linked databases are a novelty. SS#s were not automatically assigned at birth and many people didn't get one until they were adults. The numbers weren't even assigned out of the same centralized office until the 1970s. And birth and death records would be paper records filed separately, probably at different locations, that would have to be cross-referenced and checked by hand. And that's assuming that Philip and Elizabeth are using actual identities of dead people and not just KGB-created fakes.

 

So the FBI could maybe figure them out this way, but it might take months, at best. No way Philip would be so sloppy as to not make their trip look as innocuous as possible. And really, what's suspicious about a trip to West Germany? Lots of Americans were going to Europe in the early 80s because the exchange rate for American dollars was incredibly favorable at the time. The trip was a risk, but not a huge one, or the KGB wouldn't still be giving them so much freedom.

Edited March 19, 2016 by Anne Elk

[Cosmocrush]

 

http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/04/15/the-americans-recap-abassin-zadran/

 

Episode 12 last year.

 

ETA, also, I didn't mind the wigs last night.  I really did know guys like Philip, with the old fashioned Beatles hair and full beards in the eighties.  Ha.

 

Thank you!

[Umbelina]

https://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/ssb/v69n2/v69n2p55.html

 

Now I'm researching SSN's.  They've been around and used for tax purposes much longer than I guessed.  Handy charts near the end of this article with dates.

 

I do know that using a dead person wasn't possible when computers became more prevalent, faking documents in general became a nightmare for spies, passports and visas used to be easier, driver's licenses, etc. Whole departments were set up in the FBI and CIA to fake documents, back before computers completely ruled the world.

 

1970  Legislation requires banks, savings and loan associations, credit unions, and securities dealers to obtain the SSNs of all customers.
(more in the in between years here at the site)
1976  Legislation authorizes states to require an SSN for taxes, eligibility for state programs, driver's licenses, and motor vehicle registrations.

 

 

Edited March 19, 2016 by Umbelina

[babyPhat279]

Ugh, I was so annoyed when Elizabeth made that pointed remark about there not being any surveillance the first night. We get it, you are the better spy, the center thinks you fart rainbows. Phillip can read the report just fine.

 

Did I imagine things or did Phillip go to Martha's as Clark, then take off the getup before she woke up? Is that just in case someone were to recognize him as Phillip Jennings on the way there? That's dedication.

[shura]

If it had been a KGB op, I'm sure they would have covered those bases, but this was a Philip op, without support, so I'm guessing, yeah, not so neat.

 

Philip must have had support. Someone transported Elizabeth's bedridden mother from the USSR to East Germany, on to West Berlin and back, and all of this was organized on a short notice. There is no way this could have been done without the KGB being involved. I think Philip went over Gabriel's head somehow, and that was the reason Gabriel was pissed, not that Philip had gone it alone and put KGB interests in jeopardy. 

[SlackerInc]

Oh, and I think the reason we haven't seen the son on the show yet is, yes, he shot up, so we got the whole cologne conversation to prepare us for his growth spurt.  Ha. 

 

Yup, I was thinking the same thing.  Definitely awkward when there is no time jump between seasons.  They will need to keep him offscreen for a while to make it not totally silly, since he was seen right at the end of the season finale last year.

 

Were they even gone a week though?  If so, the show didn't mention it, it seemed like a very quick trip.

 

Henry groused, when they were at the airport, that Paige was lucky to get a whole week off from school.

 

As an American, you could cross Checkpoint Charlie, with a passport, and having listed every coin in your jeans pockets...down to the last pfenning. You were charged an odd amount for a day visa...no longer can remember, but around $50, in hard currency, and had 6 or 8 hours to walk around. I remember that coffee could not be found, (just ersatz watery stuff), there was literally nothing in any shop to buy, and the highlight was walking over to the Soviet Embassy to watch the changing of the guard. It was bleak, very grey.  When you crossed back to the west, the world went back to full color. And the east German guards were not a friendly bunch.

 

When did you go?  Other than the very severe East German border guards, my experience at the tail end of the Cold War was rather different.

 

 83 was an interesting year for the Cold War. We have Korean airlines being shot down, Able Archer,  and Samantha Smith.  Plus we know  now that there was a very close call in September, when the Soviet Warning System accidentally picked up, what they thought were incoming missiles. NO, the general public didn't hear about this, but KGB agents might have. I'll be interested to see if the show touches on any of this.

 

I was really interested in seeing how the show's characters would interact with all that Cold War drama as well.  The showrunners said on their official "insider" podcast that they

had originally assumed that of course it would all figure in.  The KAL 007 flight in particular, they storyboarded a several-episode arc for.  But then ultimately they decided that the plots they already had established took precedence, and that it interfered with those to bring these things in.  My thought was that it is cool they have other plots they are so excited about; but it's kind of disappointing to hear that they are going to ignore all these major events.  I am hoping they will at least acknowledge them briefly!  Otherwise it's just very unrealistic.

 

BTW, did they ever nod to the death of Brezhnev?  He had been leader of the USSR during almost their entire time in the U.S.  I don't remember it but maybe I've forgotten.

[gwhh]

The KGB after WW2 had a habit of turning the directive into subgroup for more security.  So directive S was self contained but also had subunits that was even more secret, and those had subunits, that in turn was even more secret.  Think of it like an onion!!

 

I have no clue how the Soviet Union ran it post WW2 requirement process for orphans and/or wards of the states.  But A LOT of KGB & GRU agents talent was first notice in when they did there mandatory military service during (aka conscription / draft) that time period!   

 

 

I guess, though Clark doesn't exist. I thought you meant "real wife" in like an emotional sense.

 

 

I definitely assume they found him in some kind of home like that--though again, I don't think he'd be chosen as an *Illegal* for those reasons. KGB, perhaps. But for an Illegal I'd assume being able to kill is simply something you teach the same way you'd teach a soldier. The thing that makes you stand out there (and I believe in real life Directorate-S is quite separate from the rest of the KGB so they do their own recruiting from civilians) is things like an aptitude for languages. Not so far off, I don't think, from how they choose spies everywhere. In the end he wasn't chosen to be an assassin or a heavy, but a spy who's supposed to blend in with the enemy and not look scary. 

 

So my guess is where his violent past comes into it (and I'd bet he'd have gotten into more fights in any home he was in too, if he had to) is that they noted not just that he could be violent if confronted but that he generally tried to avoid it and had a bucketload of deflection techniques he uses in every day life. We see him doing that more than killing, the way he turns every conversation to the other person, always looks for the impression he's making and adjusts accordingly, is always sending out "nothing to see here" signals, doesn't let on all that he knows. These are the things that would make me think he'd be an excellent spy.

 

 

Wasn't in the ep but he's played by the same kid.

 

 

Nope. She probably suspects he's working for the Russians since they're the main people interested in this stuff, but I'd be surprised if she thought he actually was Russian. That's another de-wigging moment, I'd think. It's very freaky for someone to suddenly reveal they're a totally different nationality and "should" have an accent.

 

 

I was more just thinking that I don't think Philip thinks of Martha as his wife at all. She really is more like someone he takes care of and protects. He thinks of his wife more as somebody equal who takes care of him and really knows him for who he is (as much as she can). But I do think he really likes Martha, a little more so every time she does something like forgive him for something terrible.

[Cosmocrush]

Did I imagine things or did Phillip go to Martha's as Clark, then take off the getup before she woke up? Is that just in case someone were to recognize him as Phillip Jennings on the way there? That's dedication.

That's exactly what he did and why I was confused (until Umbelina posted the S3 Episode 12 recap) to see him with Martha without the wig, glasses, etc.  

[sistermagpie]

Another big point is doing the Cold War.  The illegals program was NOT known among the general public.  Yes, most people knew that the KGB sent agents to live in the USA.  But not along the lines of DEEP cover such as this!

 

 

Although...it's kind of interesting because while nobody knew about the actual Illegal programs really, the idea of Illegals was totally common from fiction. Like I think I mentioned last season, Paige was watching an episode of General Hospital that took place right before a storyline about a Russian Illegal started up on that show. Which of course in some ways makes the story that much more outlandish.

 

It will take more than a quick ss# check. Remember, this is 1983 -- linked databases are a novelty.

 

 

I used the ss# because that's what Stan actually did with Leanne and Emmett. There was a scene where he came in and announced that the people with their names/numbers died many years before. This was after he suspected them of being Illegals. So if someone says "this person is an Illegal" the FBI would definitely have things they could check or investigate that were much clearer than a passport with a trip to a western country. Back in Trust Me when the KGB pretended to be the FBI capturing Philip they mentioned how his background got really "fuzzy" before 1965.

 

I mean, the passport stamp doesn't actually prove anything, it's just supposed to be a thing that makes them think to check the out. Once they decide to check them out there's probably many things they can do. They could also check it out just on the report of the pastor saying he's got reason to think this couple are illegal immigrants working for Russia.

 

Did I imagine things or did Phillip go to Martha's as Clark, then take off the getup before she woke up? Is that just in case someone were to recognize him as Phillip Jennings on the way there? That's dedication.

 

 

Yeah--he was smart to go in as the same guy he always was.

 

Philip must have had support. Someone transported Elizabeth's bedridden mother from the USSR to East Germany, on to West Berlin and back, and all of this was organized on a short notice.

 

 

I think the trip to Germany was all on him and Elizabeth. The idea, as I understood it, was that Elizabeth and Paige would be there and not leave until the Centre sent Mom over--balls of steel!

 

BTW, did they ever nod to the death of Brezhnev?  He had been leader of the USSR during almost their entire time in the U.S.  I don't remember it but maybe I've forgotten.

 

 

Yes, I remember them talking about it in the Rezidentura and I believe Arkady and Oleg talked about it. I think Paige may have even heard a snippet of news about it.

 

I have no clue how the Soviet Union ran it post WW2 requirement process for orphans and/or wards of the states.  But A LOT of KGB & GRU agents talent was first notice in when they did there mandatory military service during (aka conscription / draft) that time period!

 

 

I don't know how it goes in this universe, but I think Directorate-S is different than many other parts of the KGB in real life. They're looking for people who can pass as people from other countries, so they were often spotted in places like universities where people are studying languages. Elizabeth was tapped when she was 16 and since they're the same age I assume Philip was too. So I think in this universe they're making a point of saying these are two kids who were at the stage Paige is at now when they were taken away from whatever life they had before. With Elizabeth that was life with a mother and that affected the way she related to her mother the rest of her life. With Philip we don't know where he was coming from but if he was in an orphanage it would be almost the opposite of Elizabeth. She went from having this strong, if small, family unit to being with the Centre. Philip maybe went from being just one more orphan with no family to somebody paying attention to him in a positive way. And both of them would have had to do something to get noticed--noticed for one of the most elite programs in the country.

Edited March 19, 2016 by sistermagpie

[BW Manilowe]

I believe the Philip/Martha wedding was a legal wedding?

Many posters here have said the Philip/Elizabeth marriage was never official. I thought it was back in Season One, but have deferred to posters who have said they never married legally - although they have a great deal of forged paperwork for their identities, so there may be a forged marriage license in there.

I kind of laughed when Paige was standing in the hallway during the Pledge of Allegiance. Trying to figure out her national allegiance.

Where is the white sports car?!

As others upthread have said, Philip & Martha's wedding wasn't legal because it was under false pretenses & because Philip was using a fake name when he entered into it.

It also wasn't a legal marriage because the license & other legal paperwork was never filed with the local government.

After the ceremony, Martha had the paperwork & said something to Philip/Clark about her or someone in her family filing it. Philip somehow managed to get it away from her & said for her not to worry & he would file it, & he stuck it in his inside jacket pocket & never actually filed it/never mailed it in (presumably he disposed of it somewhere so Martha wouldn't find it still in his jacket when they were together & have another opportunity to file it herself). This was all back in S2. Also, Elizabeth & Claudia posed at the wedding as Clark's sister, Jennifer, & his mother, respectively.

[Umbelina]

Philip must have had support. Someone transported Elizabeth's bedridden mother from the USSR to East Germany, on to West Berlin and back, and all of this was organized on a short notice. There is no way this could have been done without the KGB being involved. I think Philip went over Gabriel's head somehow, and that was the reason Gabriel was pissed, not that Philip had gone it alone and put KGB interests in jeopardy. 

It was all Phillip, basically blackmailing the KGB that Elizabeth and Paige wouldn't leave until they produced her mother.

 

Balls of Steel indeed, and black-eyes for his handlers.  So the Philip part of the operation was sloppy as hell.  Oddly, I've never been convinced that really was Elizabeth's mother, she was very different from what Elizabeth described, and she could have just been some old broad they prepped.  I think they coughed up the "mother" pretty quickly to get Elizabeth back to the USA.  It will be interesting to see how this plays out.  If the pastor gets his hands on the passport, or even presses for details about the trip to Germany we may know.

 

I always think Philip and Elizabeth were trained in something like The Charm School book.  One of my first ever spy novels and I loved it.  Alias did a rif on it as well, basically an entire "American City" where they had everything from currency, only English being spoken, and bowling alley, fast food place, car dealerships, banks...

 

When I was listening to (real former American CIA station chief) Bob Baer on his really fun commentary on the RED DVD, he mentioned that he knew Russians who spoke with a perfect "Indiana" American accent, that no one could tell the difference, and mentioned they trained in a very similar set up to the one described in Charm School.  http://www.bookrags.com/studyguide-the-charm-school/#gsc.tab=0 I had long heard that nothing like that really existed, until there Bob was, saying it did.  You've probably seen him commenting on various spy stuff on CNN, and he and his wife have several books out as well, fiction and non fiction.

Edited March 19, 2016 by Umbelina

[shura]

It was all Phillip, basically blackmailing the KGB that Elizabeth and Paige wouldn't leave until they produced her mother.

Balls of Steel indeed, and black-eyes for his handlers.  So the Philip part of the operation was sloppy as hell.

 

Even if it went down like that (which is super unrealistic, if you ask me), Philip's part of the operation was just sending his wife and daughter on a trip to West Berlin. This doesn't have to be sloppy at all - they fly in, check into the hotel and stay there. Nobody would be watching them. And when the KGB did get involved and brought the mother, I assume they would have looked over everything and tidied up where necessary with all the receipts and ticket stubs you want. At that point it was no longer run by Philip alone.

Edited March 19, 2016 by shura

[sistermagpie]

I always think Philip and Elizabeth were trained in something like The Charm School book.  One of my first ever spy novels and I loved it.  Alias did a rif on it as well, basically an entire "American City" where they had everything from currency, only English being spoken, and bowling alley, fast food place, car dealerships, banks...

 

 

Commenting in the Secret Programs thread...

[TimWil]

Elizabeth made a pointed remark that her mother seemed "different." So maybe they found an insta-Mamushka to get P & E to shut the f**k up?

The scene with the scientist telling Nina that even after his mission is completed he'll be ground into dust by them made me very sad. Because I have a feeling this will happen to Nina. They'll make her think she's finally "paid in full" but will shoot her in the back of the head, anyway.

Edited March 19, 2016 by TimWil

[RedHawk]

I don't question for one minute that the old woman was not Elizabeth's mother. Can you imagine the fury Elizabeth would unleash on the people accompanying her mother if they tried to pull a stunt like that? The KGB would not treat a valuable asset like her so poorly, even if they were pissed that she basically forced them into the meeting.

Her mother seemed "different" because she had aged 20 years (which in the USSR probably would be like 40 years for us) and she was dying of cancer. Also, Elizabeth hasn't interacted with her mom in person during those years, so she still had in her mind the mother she knew as a child and teenager.

We also did not see all their conversation.

To get back to the current episode, I was thinking about how Philip and Sandra were sitting at the outdoor bar chatting in such a relaxed way. Was Philip for once not completely aware of his surroundings? If he had noticed Tori it would have made a difference in how he was interacting with Sandra. So I feel sure he actually did not notice her. Which makes me think that Philip was really enjoying himself at that time and for once not having to be on high alert.

Edited because I remembered that Philip invited Stan and Tori over for dinner. So he does know that Stan and Tori are dating.

Edited March 19, 2016 by RedHawk

[crgirl412]

I don't don't think Martha is truly spying now in the classical sense of the word.  She is more like Stockholm-syndromed ten times over since she:

 

1.  Really does love Clark and married for love.

 

2.  Thought she was helping Clark identify things that needed to be fixed that would help the government/country.

[Milburn Stone]

I don't don't think Martha is truly spying now in the classical sense of the word.  She is more like Stockholm-syndromed ten times over since she:

 

1.  Really does love Clark and married for love.

 

2.  Thought she was helping Clark identify things that needed to be fixed that would help the government/country.

 

Does she really still think #2? I don't think it's possible.

[RedHawk]

It surprised me how readily Martha got into those files and made copies for Philip/Clark. Why? I think now she realizes that she is doing something completely wrong but perhaps feels she is in too deep to save herself so has put all her trust in Clark. Stockholm syndrome, yes, and actual love, plus guilt and shame? And fear? And also, remember that Clark turned Martha using the doctored recording where Agent Gaad and Stan were making fun of her looks. She still thinks they really don't care anything about her so perhaps she can't bear to reveal what she has done to those particular men.

She could have gone to Agent Gaad and confessed everything inside the vault, admitted her shameful secret as to how much she had been duped and offered to do everything to help them nab Clark. I don't think she has done that though, I think her loyalty now is to him.

Edited March 19, 2016 by RedHawk

[sistermagpie]

It surprised me how readily Martha got into those files and made copies for Philip/Clark. Why? I think now she realizes that she is doing something completely wrong but perhaps feels she is in too deep to save herself so has put all her trust in Clark.

 

 

I think Martha's not only trying to protect herself but also Clark. In her mind, I suspect, Clark is in the same boat she is. He's dropped hints before about how he's trying to protect her from everything, which would include "them"--the same people who want her to get surveillance reports. Really it's Philip himself who wants the reports and I think she gets that in giving them to him she's helping him not get caught, which is her goal.

 

I don't know whether I'd really relate it to Stockholm Syndrome because Martha's never been a prisoner and Clark's never threatened her at all. Some of her greatest acts of treason were ones she came up with herself, with or without Clark hoping she would. She agreed to plant the pen after he proposed to her, but she brought up secret files for him to copy all on her own, and in this ep she encouraged him to tell her what "they" wanted her to do when he told her he wouldn't let her do it.

 

Which fits with the whole reveal scene. I think Philip's starting to get more and more that the way to get to Martha is to appeal to her own protective instincts and love. She was ready to walk when Clark was just trying to figure out a way to get her off the hook. She stayed when he made himself vulnerable to her. This may prove difficult if down the line he faces a similar situation to Gregory's. Back then Elizabeth hoped Gregory would take a relocation deal so she wouldn't have to kill him. He wouldn't, but he was also spying for his own reasons and knew what kind of death he wanted. In Martha's case I think she, too, could wind up in a situation where she didn't want to relocate and be "safe" without Clark. So rather than choosing death by cop she'd want to choose Clark--who she can not have.

 

Martha really is correct, I think, that turning herself in means serious trouble at this point. She's actively committed espionage using her position of trust in the FBI and she's not like Viola who was under threat of death, a regular civilian and still came forward. Frankly, her reaction when the bug was found also shows that she knew all along she wasn't quite so sure about Clark's motives all along, even if she wasn't consciously aware of her doubts.

 

Her mother seemed "different" because she had aged 20 years (which in the USSR probably would be like 40 years for us) and she was dying of cancer. Also, Elizabeth hasn't interacted with her mom in person during those years, so she still had in her mind the mother she knew as a child and teenager.

 

 

I also believe that was totally Elizabeth's mother. I don't think she's forgotten what she looks like to the point where she wouldn't recognize her.  Age, cancer and loneliness had taken a toll, and Elizabeth had literally never even interacted with her as an adult. Of course the possibility she's a fake is always out there because it's *always* out there for these people. They can never really trust anything. Even if that is her mother she could have been told what to say, to make sure she said something to make Elizabeth loyal or whatever. We don't know. I've often played with that idea when it comes to Irina since in that case we even see a totally different woman in the photo Philip had before meeting Elizabeth. (Of course that's really just about not having cast Irina yet...) But in her case the lies are explicit. We can't not have doubts about Irina's story or the existence of a soldier son because she's told conflicting stories and Philip himself explicitly said he didn't know whether to believe her.

[TimWil]

RedHawk, your points make sense but I just don't see why they had Elizabeth point out that her mother seemed "different" without there being some sort of follow-through down the line. This is a fictional drama series with heightened melodramatic elements after all, not a documentary.

Edited March 19, 2016 by TimWil

[sistermagpie]

RedHawk, your points make sense but I just don't see why they had Elizabeth point out that her mother seemed "different" without there being some sort of follow-through down the line. This is a fictional drama series with heightened melodramatic elements after all, not a documentary.

 

 

I think the drama was what RedHawk was mentioning. It's not that Elizabeth is going to uncover a conspiracy that her mother is really alive or dead, it's that seeing her again is going to affect the way she thinks about her and the way she interacts with Paige as a result. Her relationship to her mother is an important force in her life and so far it's been a totally steady force. Now she's looking at her and seeing a different person.

[Umbelina]

Even if it went down like that (which is super unrealistic, if you ask me), Philip's part of the operation was just sending his wife and daughter on a trip to West Berlin. This doesn't have to be sloppy at all - they fly in, check into the hotel and stay there. Nobody would be watching them. And when the KGB did get involved and brought the mother, I assume they would have looked over everything and tidied up where necessary with all the receipts and ticket stubs you want. At that point it was no longer run by Philip alone.

What part of it didn't go down like that though?

 

These are not normal Americans who can just zip off to border countries at will.  They are deeply embedded, very valuable, Russian spies.  Elizabeth's cover name is from a dead person, and the slightest bit of reason to suspect her would cause that cover to crumble.  It wouldn't be instantaneous, as it would be today with all of our technology, but the FBI (and now CIA since she left the country) are not complete idiots either, she COULD be exposed, all they need is a reason to look.

 

That's why the KGB wants Paige.  Her birth and citizenship will stand up to questioning, so she can be more secure, and better placed.  Elizabeth and Philip live on a knife edge of discovery.  They can't put a foot wrong, if that foot brings them into question in any way?  It all falls apart.

 

I do agree that the KGB would tidy up as best they could though, good point.  The one thing they can't tidy up though?  Paige.  Her memories, her mouth, and most importantly, her passport, which proves where she was, and she would crumble under questioning.  All they need is a reason, and the Pastor could very easily supply one.

 

RedHawk, your points make sense but I just don't see why they had Elizabeth point out that her mother seemed "different" without there being some sort of follow-through down the line. This is a fictional drama series with heightened melodramatic elements after all, not a documentary.

I agree. 

 

I'm not saying that WASN'T her mother either, just saying that I had my suspicious the entire time. 

 

Could her mother have had a personality transplant over the decades of hard living?  Of course!  Totally logical.  Could the KGB had grabbed a handy substitute to get Elizabeth the hell out of there and back in the USA where she belongs?  Absolutely.  As for reasons, there are many possibilities, among them, Elizabeth's mother being long dead, Elizabeth's mother being too far away to get there fast enough, Elizabeth's mother actually being too sick to go anywhere, or she somehow pissed off someone in power and is in a Gulag somewhere, really, there are many more I'm not thinking of.

 

It's just that Elizabeth told us a lot about her mom, "she's not the cuddly grandmother type" and "you wouldn't like her" and yes, the very telling "she seemed different."  All easily explainable by age and softening, but this is a spy show, so, other possibilities exist, including that it wasn't her mom at all.

Edited March 19, 2016 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

I do agree that the KGB would tidy up as best they could though, good point.  The one thing they can't tidy up though?  Paige.  Her memories, her mouth, and most importantly, her passport, which proves where she was, and she would crumble under questioning.  All they need is a reason, and the Pastor could very easily supply one.

 

 

They also have Henry. He went with them to the airport and knew she was going to Germany, probably mentioned it to Stan as the reason his mother and sister were out of town. So Stan the FBI guy probably totally knows about it the whole trip already.

 

Paige, too, has no doubt told Pastor Tim she and Elizabeth were in Germany--she probably told him she was going beforehand with the cover story (that her parents have a cancelled booking and decided to use it for themselves, and thought it was good for Paige to see someplace outside the US) and afterward with the real story, since the grandmother was a big reason she freaked out. So he could just as easily just say they just went to German and the whole paper trail is already there, with or without the passport. Plane tickets, passenger list, hotel reservation. None of it was made secret. I think part of the reason they use the travel agency as a cover is to give themselves reasons for taking impromptu trips either as themselves or using other passports.

[Umbelina]

All very true sistermagpie!

 

The lie about the "cancelled booking" could easily be checked as well.

 

As we are saying, sloppy, sloppy, sloppy.

 

If the KGB had arranged this, there would be no record of either of them ever being on a plane or even leaving the USA.  No wonder the handler is in deep shit with Moscow.  I bet they are seriously pissed back at headquarters!

[sistermagpie]

As we are saying, sloppy, sloppy, sloppy.

 

 

Oh, I'm not even saying it's sloppy just that keeping it a secret was never part of the plan, so they rather than hide the trip they were open about it and just gave a reason for it. I wonder if part of the reason for that was that they didn't think Paige could handle that level of secrecy. So they just incorporated it into their actual life.

 

That was probably a big part of the blackmail too, though. They no doubt knew that the KGB wouldn't want Elizabeth and Paige Jennings hanging out in Berlin for very long. So yeah, the sheer brazenness of it, making it so open--the sloppiness--was probably at least in some part a big part of the threat and the Centre understood that. Had they refused Elizabeth and Paige might have stayed there for too long. Tick tock. Or the Centre would have had to openly say no and censure them--censure HER--and I don't know that they'd want to do that. It's really interesting, too, that while Gabriel of course sees this as Philip's plan, it's a plan that Elizabeth 100% agreed to and is defending even more than Philip is (since Philip's kind of taking a "I don't need to defend myself to you" stance anyway). She's still, I think, telling herself it's all about making Paige more open to who she "really is" but at this point she also sees it as a bonding thing for herself. The trip was really about her more than anyway--even if it was Philip's original plan, Philip wasn't with her.

[Umbelina]

 

I don't don't think Martha is truly spying now in the classical sense of the word.  She is more like Stockholm-syndromed ten times over since she:

 

1.  Really does love Clark and married for love.

 

2.  Thought she was helping Clark identify things that needed to be fixed that would help the government/country.

That is a spy though.  Someone who gives information to the enemy.  The reasons are just details, in Martha's case, LOVE.

 

Oh and the "we" didn't refer to you and I sistermagpie, it referred to me and a few others in this thread.  I know you don't agree that the sloppiness or passports matter.

 

We shall see!  Can't wait.  This season looks so good!

[millennium]

I like Martha a lot, but I would have preferred to see her killed than turned.   

[Hecate7]

You know, our last sighting of Henry was with Stan, playing the football board game. Maybe Henry slipped up and asked, "How's Mrs. Beeman?" one time too many. It's been only a couple of days since then, right? Stan then could have sneaked into the Jennings' house, sprayed Henry's cologne all over the upstairs area, and no one would would realize he was missing...

 

Is Stan really that insane, that he would kill a teen over sexual jealousy? Damn.

[Dowel Jones]

 I was so annoyed when Elizabeth made that pointed remark about there not being any surveillance the first night.

 

I, for one, thought Philip just may have been right in his observation that night.  The way the other guy walked around his contact was shown to be just a bit off.  Someone watching the contact could take it either way.  But I understand the reason behind Philip's error.  I firmly believe it will come up again, with some consequences, in a future episode.

[AllyB]

Wasn't the other guy Hans though? Looking around and giving the all clear signal to P&E.

[Clanstarling]

You know, I thought I heard Elizabeth mention something about Hans in that scene. Later on, I wondered what had happened to Hans, as my memory of the finale last season was not very detailed.

[sistermagpie]

This might be obvious but I was just thinking how cool it is that the episode literally starts and end with bookend scenes where Philip is being bullied. The first line is a mild epithet about him with his original name, and then it ends with Stan's matching "Screw you, Philip." (Both times I think we can assume those characters would really be swearing if this were HBO.)

 

Philip and his bully act differently in the second scene, but there's still a pretty neat parallel, like he's come so far but still has the same basic threats.

 

Which also led me to appreciate the other thing in that scene. The violence of the beat-down tends to be the thing you remember, and many have wondered if this is the sort of thing that would make the KGB notice him, but think about how truly clever and wily Philip is in that scene as a pretty young kid. He doesn't drop that milk in the hopes the other boys will just take it and leave him alone--he's lying in wait knowing they won't just take it, that they want to also beat him up. Plus his whole goal is to get them to stop stealing from him, so leaving the milk as an offering would have the opposite effect.

 

I think what he does is drop the milk at a place where the tunnel splits so the other boys will split up knowing he came that way but not knowing which tunnel he took next. That way he can take the first one out and go hunting the other. That's some scary focus and strategy there. He's using some mad spy skillz already to predict their reactions and how to use them to his advantage and manipulate them into a spot where he can kill them most efficiently.

[RedHawk]

^That is awesome, SisterMagpie! I think you're right!

[WTEngel]

I think Paige will end up on the run with Pastor Tim before this season is over. 

 

I get the feeling he is presenting the front of trying to be conciliatory between her and her parents, all the while driving a wedge between them to drive them further apart. In the end, this will cause them to separate enough for her to be convinced that running off is the best option. 

 

Wouldn't that be one heck of a loose end to try and run down...

 

Ultimately, all of this is so beyond belief to me...I mean with the way the second generation Illegals program went with the first trial (remember, that boy who who KILLED HIS WHOLE F'ING FAMILY?!?!??) I can not imagine why they would try it again!!!

[sistermagpie]

I think Paige will end up on the run with Pastor Tim before this season is over.

I get the feeling he is presenting the front of trying to be conciliatory between her and her parents, all the while driving a wedge between them to drive them further apart. In the end, this will cause them to separate enough for her to be convinced that running off is the best option.

 

 

So you mean Pastor Tim's been sort of a Humbert Humbert all this time plotting to run away with the teenage girl?

Edited March 21, 2016 by sistermagpie

[beeble]

Before we talk of killing more wigs, please remember that it's only 1983. Hair is going to get much, much worse before it gets better. Both Elizabeth and Philip have to wear headbanger wigs before this is all over.

[Chaos Theory]

I'll be disappointed if Martha is secretly spying on Clarke for Gaad. Not because I don't think she'd do it but because this is a spy show and so far all the other spying as been out in the open for at least the audience to see. A lesser show would have Marha suddenly end up being a secret under cover for Gaad six episode in but what I like about this show is that it doesn't pull that at least not with the main characters.

If Martha decides to work for Gaad against Clarke we will know it.

[Domestic Assassin]

I'll be disappointed if Martha is secretly spying on Clarke for Gaad. Not because I don't think she'd do it but because this is a spy show and so far all the other spying as been out in the open for at least the audience to see. A lesser show would have Marha suddenly end up being a secret under cover for Gaad six episode in but what I like about this show is that it doesn't pull that at least not with the main characters.

 

 

I agree.  Same reason I'd quit the show if Pastor Tim turned out to be some KGB operative.  The show is labyrinthine enough without adding complicating factors hidden from the audience for no real reason.

[Chaos Theory]

I agree. Same reason I'd quit the show if Pastor Tim turned out to be some KGB operative. The show is labyrinthine enough without adding complicating factors hidden from the audience for no real reason.

I may have my history wrong so if I do I apologize. Pastor Tim might have grown up during the Hollywood Blacklists and remember plenty of people innocent and guilty whose lives got ruined by simply being accused of being communist sympathizers. Plus....well The Rosenbergs. Both may be before his time but Pastor Tim doesn't look like the kind of man who would destroy someone's life without substantial proof. Even if right now the proof he is getting is from Paige. Which is suspect by itself.

[Clanstarling]

So you mean Pastor Tim's been sort of a Humbert Humbert all this time plotting to run away with the teenage girl?

Humbert Humbert vibes are what keep pinging in my head (without the running away part). The man creeps me out to no end. Whether or not it's intentional. Edited March 21, 2016 by clanstarling

[izabella]

With that hair and cheesy smile, he looks like that creepy Tiny Tim dude. 

 

I think he's way out of his depth, and he probably thinks that Paige is going through an emotional crisis and is exaggerating what might have some truth to it.  Like, maybe Paige did just find out her grandmother is Russian, but then let her imagination run away with her on the rest as far as her parents being super secret spies is concerned. 

 

If I were a pastor, that's what I'd be thinking...teens are so dramatic.