S03.E14: Final Decision, Pt. 2

[Kira53]

To be fair, I think Neil was also involved in vindictiveness given the cold way he kept his feelings a mystery until the very end and then unceremoniously dumped her.  Neither of them was above stuff like this - Certainly Sam is not above it but I think it shows that there is more flawed about Neil than he was willing to show on camera.  He can't possibly be that clueless and if he is that's something else negative about him!

I don't think Neil hid his feelings. If you look at his behavior he was pretty clear that he wasn't chasing after her or responding to her. She started flirting with him but he wasn't interested. She found excuses to touch him but he didn't touch her. He showed no sexual or romantic interest in her. Always polite but there was nothing happening that looked like he wanted more. I think that after she touched his face after he was very clear that he wouldnt want his face touched, Neil acted very neutral toward her. No response was his response. Pretty savvy of Neil to understand that Sam gave him a 6 week sample of how erratic she will be. The story she told of the "joke" she played at work was very telling of her character so he didn't want to waste time staying married to someone that can't change. And that original abuse was telling. And the way she threw him out of the house for nothing except speaking up for himself guarenteed that he wouldn't say anything even if the show permitted. Run, Neil run. Please don't look back.

[ChristmasJones]

After reading a  bunch of posts just now, I find myself wishing I had saved this series on my DVR so I could re-watch it after the follow-up next week. It would be interesting to see the editing of each episode after knowing the final outcome. Of course I would fast-forward through the THs of the "experts" like I did the first time

 

Its too bad they don't do it more like a real documentary.

 

I guess that is one of the interesting aspects of this experiment- the people sign up to give it six weeks with someone they've never met. But just because the production team and the contracts force them to not drop out before then, they can't control how each person will choose to cope with being with someone they don't like during the six weeks.

 

Can we really fault anyone on this show for "bad" behavior? It has to be a real mind-f*ck to spend all this time with someone that all these experts keep telling you is a perfect match, and then not be feeling it for them, but then to have to keep acting like you want to try to.

[BBDi]

I just suspect that Neil was committed to the 'process' and the 'experiment' and felt like he needed to see the whole thing through. He did the things he thought he was supposed to and finally had to accept that the feelings were never going to develop. Plus maybe he saw some deal-breakers he just couldn't live with.

I suppose you could interpret some of his actions as kind of passive/aggressive but who knows?

In one of his interviews he said something about making the right decision for 'me.' I think maybe he felt a bit obligated toward Sam when she started turning around her behavior and feelings, but decided that that wasn't a basis for staying married. Good for him. I can tell you from person experience that staying married to someone because you feel sorry for them is not a good idea!

[seasick]

Interesting how Sam finally found a comb and a decent looking outfit when she met back up with Neil after six weeks of looking like an unmade bed.  Forget trying to make Neil have any regrets, Sam honey..  He gave you all the rope you wanted to hang yourself. and you were so sucked up into your own ego that you thought they were puppet strings.  Live and learn.    

[eclectic]

David wouldn't have done the show if he didn't really, really wanted marriage. My opinion of course.  Ashley was god-awful - I wonder if she really looks like that on the street.  Unbelievable. 

 

Sam, I'm sorry for her.  Lots of arm-chair psychs on this blog.  She was saving face the next day.  She was truly distraught and trying earnestly to admit she might have blown it before he gave his answer.  Yes, she was embarrassed. Who wouldn't be.  But that doesn't mean she wasn't terribly disappointed as well.  I wonder if Neil will find love.  I think it is too bad that they didn't have another week or two.  A little more affection and it was growing would have helped tremendously.  I think Neil will be sorry.  His girlfriend at the beginning of the series looked a little astonished that he got a woman like Sam.  I have little interest in this show currently except as it pertains to Sam and Neil.  I will be interested in any news about them in the future. 

 

BTW, sort of like Ryan and Jaclyn.  Ryan was never into her - it was all for the camera even though she fell for him and hard.  I think Sam did, too. He is a pretty cold, analytical kind of guy.

[Paddywagon]

Sam, I'm sorry for her. Lots of arm-chair psychs on this blog. She was saving face the next day. She was truly distraught and trying earnestly to admit she might have blown it before he gave his answer. Yes, she was embarrassed. Who wouldn't be. But that doesn't mean she wasn't terribly disappointed as well. I wonder if Neil will find love. I think it is too bad that they didn't have another week or two. A little more affection and it was growing would have helped tremendously. I think Neil will be sorry.

I don't feel any sympathy for Sam.

The thing is, I learned to be respectful to people as a small child and refined those skills as life went on. Sam's problem isn't that she needed more time, it's that she never learned not to ever ever ever treat people like that in the first place. And it wasn't just one or two incidents, it was sustained meanness for 5 weeks! Who does that????!!!! And not only who does that but who in their right mind then thinks a week of nicey-nice afterwards fixes it? Mind=blown.

I'll always admire Neil's tolerance and patience with Sam. Those are the traits of a good person with good character.

Edited March 5, 2016 by Paddywagon

[silverspoons]

Sorry if this has been asked, I tried to read as much as I could, would David and Ashley be able to get an annulment? or even Neil and Sam? I know laws vary from state to state but with the marriages not being consummated and they whole concept of the marriage I would think they would have a good argument for an annulment.

[BBDi]

Sorry if this has been asked, I tried to read as much as I could, would David and Ashley be able to get an annulment? or even Neil and Sam? I know laws vary from state to state but with the marriages not being consummated and they whole concept of the marriage I would think they would have a good argument for an annulment.

That has been discussed here though I'm not sure where. The answer is no, that is not possible in Georgia. Consummated or not makes no difference there.

ETA: I sure bet they wish they could annul those hideous aberrations they called marriages.

Edited March 5, 2016 by BBDi

[Evil Queen]

That has been discussed here though I'm not sure where. The answer is no, that is not possible in Georgia. Consummated or not makes no difference there.

ETA: I sure bet they wish they could annul those hideous aberrations they called marriages.

 

Plus wasn't there something with the show and contracts that it wasn't an option as well? Could be wrong but thought I read that somewhere.

[ClareWalks]

I also wouldn't think annulment was an option because they went on a reality show and no doubt signed tons of contracts that would indicate that they knew exactly what they were getting into. Usually annulments require some element of deceit or false pretenses to go through.

 

ETA: Jinx, Evil Queen ;)

Edited March 5, 2016 by ClareWalks

[silverspoons]

That has been discussed here though I'm not sure where. The answer is no, that is not possible in Georgia. Consummated or not makes no difference there.

ETA: I sure bet they wish they could annul those hideous aberrations they called marriages.

Thanks. It is crazy how the marriage laws very from state to state. You would think they would film the show in a state that had easy quick divorces. I lived in one of those 1 year wait states and then moved to Utah and was able to get divorced in about 2 weeks(of course we agreed on everything).

 

I remember growing up my mom getting so mad when 2 women were given annulments after 10+ year marriages and having several kids. I guess it used to be very important to get an annulment if your wanted to remarry in the catholic church. I believe the women claimed abuse or addiction issues to get an annulment. I guess it just varies state to state.

[Zuleikha]

Usually annulments require some element of deceit or false pretenses to go through.

I am not a lawyer and personally, I'm not sure if there's an advantage to annulment vs. divorce that any of the participants would care about (since Georgia only requires a 31 day wait period from date of filing). But one of George's grounds for annulment is "fraudulently induced to enter into the marriage." To me, it seems like Ashley or another participant would have an argument for fraud on the basis that the show portrays itself as both vetting applicants and matching applicants based on some kind of expert standards when it's become clear that neither of those things are true. Background checks aren't actually performed in time to disclose information to participants or disqualify participants, and there are no discernable standards used to match people. 

[Vinyasa]

Question: Ashley, have you ever been married?

 

Ashley: Ummm....ah.....hmmm. Well, I married this stranger for a TV show. He wasn't my type but I got to wear a really pretty dress. He cheated on me when he asked out another woman for drinks. He broke my trust and I couldn't get over  it.

 

I never felt married because he was stranger and then he got caught cheating.

Edited March 5, 2016 by Vinyasa

[Evil Queen]

Thanks. It is crazy how the marriage laws very from state to state. You would think they would film the show in a state that had easy quick divorces. I lived in one of those 1 year wait states and then moved to Utah and was able to get divorced in about 2 weeks(of course we agreed on everything).

 

I remember growing up my mom getting so mad when 2 women were given annulments after 10+ year marriages and having several kids. I guess it used to be very important to get an annulment if your wanted to remarry in the catholic church. I believe the women claimed abuse or addiction issues to get an annulment. I guess it just varies state to state.

 

I think its 6 months where I live. I know my friend's SIL and BIL just got divorced and it took about that long for it to finalize. Aren't there some states that make you have to do marriage counseling as well for a set time frame before you are allowed the divorce was well? I thought I heard that years ago but can't remember who it was from. Might have been a mom's board a long time ago and it took a to have to do that before you could finalize a divorce. It is crazy how long it can take though. I don't think it should be easy in normal situations but if it comes down to issues like a spouse being abused then I think it is a bit different. 

  Anyone I don't see Ashley have grounds for fraud though either way when she basically committed fraud by signing a contract willing to be part of this and wasn't even going to try at all to be friendly with David. Again considering what happened with him wasn't repeated after the one time and with how long ago it was it probably wouldn't matter since he didn't behave in that manner to her. I can imagine how frustrating it would be to deal with someone like her. Now Neil on the other hand, the abuse he had taken from Sam is another story. Yet since the state doesn't do anything but divorce it doesn't matter in the end on which it is. 

[Empress1]

The comments that Sam's family made at the wedding hinted at the fact that Sam made it to 30 and still doesn't realize that if you treat people poorly, they leave. Sam was probably coddled and catered to as a child like Veruca Salt.

I don't remember the wedding (my God, this show feels like it's been on forever - doesn't it seem like the weddings were, like, 2012 sometime?) but what was telling for me was when Neil pulled Sammie aside at that barbecue and said something like "Sam comes across as ... I don't want to say 'a bully,' but ..." and Sammie nodded. She didn't disagree with characterizing Sam as a bully at all - she seemed to agree outright that Sam is one. And I agree. And she has zero self awareness - she said several times, when asked why she thought the "experts" (HA!) put them together, that she and Neil are both nice, compassionate people. I didn't see a shred of that with Sam. There's probably some somewhere - she does have friends, after all - but it's definitely not readily apparent.

[allthelight]

I'm very confused about Sam. Sometimes, she seems like a straightforward bully, and sometimes it seems like those qualities can partly be accounted for by a huge grade for anxiety. For a nice looking young female with a good job, a loving family and friends she seems terribly anxious. So maybe under all that horrible behavior she's pretty nice. But then again, she once mentioned on SM something along the lines of treating Neil like that because of not being able to switch off her behavior at the workplace. So I assume she's a horrible boss and people who treat people working for them terribly will never get a pass from me. The way you treet waiters and employees says a lot about your character.

[ChristmasJones]

It is truly difficult to imagine Sam as a manager in any sort of professional setting.

[still hoping]

"Annulments" for the Catholic Church has/had nothing to do with state laws.. only Church Laws - the annulments come from Rome, just ask the various Kennedy family members who obtained them LOL

And it would only be in regard to two Catholics who married in the Catholic Church. If a Catholic married civil ceremony or even another religion ceremony they would be able to remarry in the Church.

 

Legal annulments? That varies by state. Grounds are usually - deceiving - like hiding a criminal record or addiction, alcoholism..

Bigamy - I am pretty sure that an annulment is given to the wronged party then...

other reasons can be - deceit like not saying they don't want kids before marriage..or an "unconsummated" marriage...

In real life I think those cost more $$ than a divorce - I knew a girl who married a guy her parents hated, semi eloped...her family had money and when he turned out to be a slug, she went to her parents and they  arranged a good lawyer and an annulment rather than divorce.

 

I recall reading the show would ONLY pay for divorces - but apparently made an exception for the threat mess in the threatgate Jessica/Ryan case?

 

I also recall that the show will only pay at the 6 week period - afterwards it would be up to the couple  to pay?

Edited March 6, 2016 by still hoping

[eclectic]

These videos are edited.  We don't really know the whole story. It is possible the editors find personality characteristics and exaggerate them a bit to make it all interesting.  I do think the issue about the house and moving back into Sam's place was probably the last straw for Neil.   Still, several weeks ago - about half way through the show - I commented on Neil's ability to be passive-aggressive so he wasn't perfect.  Her's was a childish kind of behavior but Neil's is a more adult and even harsher kind of retribution.  

 

And it was pretty obvious she was softening and he totally couldn't communicate his feelings with her. He was part of the problem although I agree that -  even though unsaid - she realized it toward the end when he didn't respond to her affectionate advances.   I wouldn't want to live with someone who could not communicate his emotions.  I don't think he changed as much as she did and I think he may end up living a pretty lonely life.   I wonder if Neil can feel love. 

[Crazy Bird Lady]

Sorry if this has been asked, I tried to read as much as I could, would David and Ashley be able to get an annulment? or even Neil and Sam? I know laws vary from state to state but with the marriages not being consummated and they whole concept of the marriage I would think they would have a good argument for an annulment.

 

I think "still hoping" is correct - the possibility of getting a legal 'annulment' almost certainly varies from state to state. And after the big deal their 'experts' made in the beginning about how the only way out of those [Georgia] marriages is divorce, it's pretty obvious that annulment isn't a possibility in this case.

 

If it were, it's clear David and Ashley would be prime candidates for it, though! 

[still hoping]

There would be some advantage to a legal annulment -

it "erases" the union  --- like when you check off a form, single, married, divorced, widowed you legally can check off single

it is like the marriage never happened

divorce - you were married, and it was legally ended

for some it might be easier to date again, deal with future in laws to say - and brush off - an "annulment" than a previous "marriage" even if it was a crazy marriage at first sight

 

NOT putting out if you don't feel it or if the guy is a creep ? IMHO that leaves both Davina and Ashley in a better place for future relationships.

 

 

(Catholic annulment is different - and only applies to those who married in a Catholic Church/religious ceremony.)

[Neurochick]

I guess that is one of the interesting aspects of this experiment- the people sign up to give it six weeks with someone they've never met. But just because the production team and the contracts force them to not drop out before then, they can't control how each person will choose to cope with being with someone they don't like during the six weeks.

Can we really fault anyone on this show for "bad" behavior? It has to be a real mind-f*ck to spend all this time with someone that all these experts keep telling you is a perfect match, and then not be feeling it for them, but then to have to keep acting like you want to try to.

 

I think the idea of this show is interesting, but I don't think it will work most of the time.   I used to work with a woman who said the reason people have problems finding "the one" is because, "there's too many people."  I think what she meant is that today people have too many options.  There was a time when there weren't that many appropriate people for a person to date and marry.  There was a time people didn't marry outside their race, religion, geographical area, age range.  A lot of that has been thrown out of the window today; I also think that people believe there are SO many choices, SO many people out there, why settle?

 

I have a friend who's married and both she and her husband are pretty satisfied.  She told me it’s because both of them believe that the other is the best each of them will ever get.  She has health problems and he’s okay with that; he’s not as educated as she and she made his life better than it was before.  Now, it may not be 100% that they are the best for each other, but they believe that they are.  I don’t know if I’m making any sense except to say that if you feel that “this is it” you might be more inclined to try to make it work, than if you think “there’s something better for me out there,” whereas you might decide to leave.

[okerry]

I think the idea of this show is interesting, but I don't think it will work most of the time.   I used to work with a woman who said the reason people have problems finding "the one" is because, "there's too many people."  I think what she meant is that today people have too many options.  There was a time when there weren't that many appropriate people for a person to date and marry.  There was a time people didn't marry outside their race, religion, geographical area, age range.  A lot of that has been thrown out of the window today; I also think that people believe there are SO many choices, SO many people out there, why settle?

 

 

Oh, I agree completely. When something else is always waiting with a swipe of your finger or a click of the mouse, why decide? And how do you decide? Decision-making is something of a lost art, anyway, especially with some of the current generation. If you don't have to choose just one of anything, why would you?

 

I always told my kids that if you want the benefit from something - an education, a career, a sport, a relationship - at some point, you'll have to commit to it. No commitment = no real benefit, at least not the kind most people want. And so we have people with only bits and pieces of college picked up here and there, or constantly starting over at different jobs, or quitting a sport when it gets difficult, or having loads of failed and half-ass relationships. And wondering why they're "not happy."

[Nffftshewasgone]

Oh, I agree completely. When something else is always waiting with a swipe of your finger or a click of the mouse, why decide? And how do you decide? Decision-making is something of a lost art, anyway, especially with some of the current generation. If you don't have to choose just one of anything, why would you?

I always told my kids that if you want the benefit from something - an education, a career, a sport, a relationship - at some point, you'll have to commit to it. No commitment = no real benefit, at least not the kind most people want. And so we have people with only bits and pieces of college picked up here and there, or constantly starting over at different jobs, or quitting a sport when it gets difficult, or having loads of failed and half-ass relationships. And wondering why they're "not happy."

I completely agree with both of you. No pain, no gain. And that goes for actual decision making as well.

[NerdilyDone]

I am so relieved that Ashley is free of David.  Yes, she was cold to him.  But it was all his doing.  Just because he wasn't as frenetic as Sam didn't make him any less of a creeper. 

 

The trouble with David is that he's two extremes.  On one side, he claims he's desperately in love with Ashley, but on the other, whenever she does something that upsets him, he freaks out and gets really angry.  Remember in season 1 when Jamie wasn't into Doug?  She told him, and he dealt with it, and they both moved on.  But when Ashley tried to admit the same, David suddenly got really angry at her.  Ashley was so guarded around David because any disagreement on her part would only provoke David into being emotionally manipulative, and try to make her feel bad with his aggressiveness.

 

David never knew when to calm down and chill.  He was always pressuring Ashley, and he couldn't just relax and try to let things take their course.  And when she admitted that she wants a divorce, he acted like a child -- constantly showing her pictures of them together and asking if she wanted them, and throwing a hissy fit on his way out the door. 

 

A telling thing was when, several weeks in, David claimed he loved Ashley.  Mind you, this was after weeks of cold fish, establishing that either David was lying, or simply naive.  Honestly, David so strongly desired marriage that he became desperate and over-aggressive.  It didn't matter to him who he was married to, so long as he was married.

 

Both David and Sam are too childish to be married.

[Neurochick]

Ashley didn't like David from DAY ONE.  She said "I don't like him."  David could have been the perfect man, Ashley still would have acted the same way, she didn't like the man, period.

[allthelight]

I don't like him either, and he's fake and phony, thus far away from being 'perfect'. She's not perfect either, but at least she's not as fake as him.

[Kira53]

These videos are edited.  We don't really know the whole story. It is possible the editors find personality characteristics and exaggerate them a bit to make it all interesting.  I do think the issue about the house and moving back into Sam's place was probably the last straw for Neil.   Still, several weeks ago - about half way through the show - I commented on Neil's ability to be passive-aggressive so he wasn't perfect.  Her's was a childish kind of behavior but Neil's is a more adult and even harsher kind of retribution.  

 

And it was pretty obvious she was softening and he totally couldn't communicate his feelings with her. He was part of the problem although I agree that -  even though unsaid - she realized it toward the end when he didn't respond to her affectionate advances.   I wouldn't want to live with someone who could not communicate his emotions.  I don't think he changed as much as she did and I think he may end up living a pretty lonely life.   I wonder if Neil can feel love. 

We don't know whether or not Neil can't communicate his emotions.  He tried to communicate emotions with Sam about not being given a key and he got thrown out.  He communicated his feelings about being demeaned the first days with Sam and that didn't  go well.  He was pretty direct with telling her how he felt to be so demeaned.  She went in for the kill.  

 

I think that all we know is that he stopped trying to communicate feelings with Sam because Sam is the kind of person you can't express you negative feelings toward without them expressing rage or putting you down.  Sam hadn't done much for Neil to communicate positive feelings.  Why communicate your feeing to a mean bully?  You are just giving them more to hurt you with.  It doesn't matter whether she was "softening" right now to manipulate,  That mean streak is not a temporary personality.  That is her usual and dominate personality.  Remember when she insisted they more to her place and gave Neil nothing to feel it was his home.

 

We don't know how Neil would be with someone that didn't make fun of you and try to hurt you on first sight (married or not).  There was no love for Neil to feel.  

Edited March 8, 2016 by Kira53

[Waterlilly]

In one of the Jamie shows Neil said something about comforting Sam one time and he kissed her shoulder and she freaked out. He said he shut down after that or something like that.

I just want to say that Vanessa and her sister have the most perfect eyebrows!

[Evil Queen]

Ashley didn't like David from DAY ONE.  She said "I don't like him."  David could have been the perfect man, Ashley still would have acted the same way, she didn't like the man, period.

 

Exactly!!! I don't get where there was anger on his part at all during this. We never saw him get bad at her. Sorry but anyone would look needy or pushy if they had to be with her. Then on top of it have the "experts" telling you to do this and that to get her to open up. She was never going to open up though no matter what and that was a given on the wedding day when she said that. So talk about someone that is fake. She was never once real.

[VanSensei]

edit

Edited March 9, 2016 by VanSensei