Legends of Crush Objects, Partners, Teammates, (and Everything Else): The Relationship Thread

[Starfish35]

Yeah, I think it's Zaray.

[Starfish35]

For me, they're just moving too fast with "AvaLance".  It's not that I'm opposed to changing my mind on Ava - the Beebo episode made me think I could be persuaded to come around on the pairing. But as I said in the episode thread, that was only a couple of days ago by the show timeline, but suddenly there's all innuendo and teasing by Gideon (who previously called Ava a bitch) and flirting and awkwardness between Sara and Ava, and a 180 degree personality turnaround on Ava (now suddenly Ava's the girl you take home to your parents? Since when?) and it's all just moving way too fast for me when they only really just started breaking the ice a couple days ago.  It's like they're pushing them into this rather than letting that thaw gradually warm into something else.

Edited February 13, 2018 by Starfish35

[Proteus]

I've made it known that I like Sara/Ava. I can definitely see them as a long term pairing since I think that's what the show intends for them. I'm fine with the pacing. I don't feel it's rushed at all. Steins death is what softened Ava towards the Legends and I find that believable.

[Sakura12]

If the Ava we met inn the Viking episode was like that the first time we met her, I might've liked her for Sara more. People will say "Sorry for your loss" to people they barely know if they lost someone close to them. I don't see that making Ava suddenly turnaround on the Legends. So it still came out of nowhere and looks like she got a personality transplant in that episode so they could start the Ava and Sara ship. 

But I know it seems to be a popular ship and I like the actress playing Ava but for a long term Sara romance she's not working for me. I've pretty much liked everyone else they paired with Sara, it has to be how they are writing it. Sara deserves someone that wasn't an asshole to her for no reason. Plus it seems like they are trying way too hard to make it happen. 

Edited February 13, 2018 by Sakura12

[Proteus]

I guess I just don't see the way Ava behaved in her first episodes as such a deal breaker. 

Sara/Nyssa are very popular ( I liked them) and they have probably the most toxic backstory of any Arrowverse ship. 

So Ava being nasty towards Sara when they first met isn't a big deal to me.

[Starfish35]

5 hours ago, Proteus said:

Sara/Nyssa are very popular ( I liked them) and they have probably the most toxic backstory of any Arrowverse ship. 

I never shipped Nyssara personally because of that very reason, and I'm not sure anyone here is arguing that either Nyssara or Avalance is unpopular.  We're just saying the reasons it doesn't work for us.  

[Proteus]

1 hour ago, Starfish35 said:

I never shipped Nyssara personally because of that very reason, and I'm not sure anyone here is arguing that either Nyssara or Avalance is unpopular.  We're just saying the reasons it doesn't work for us.  

I understand. I was just saying that Ava doesn't have the most complicated past with Sara & some still ship them.

[tennisgurl]

Avalance is...fine. I dont hate Ava, and I liked her more in Beebo than I did before, but I cant say I think they have much chemistry, and I think Ava has gone from hating Sara and the Legends to being into Sara pretty quickly. So, I highly doubt it will hurt my enjoyment of the show, but I am not super excited about the inevitable hook up. 

But, if their chemistry grows, and Ava becomes a more interesting character, I`m sure I can get into it eventually, especially if its gives Sara some happy times. Basically, I am neutral now, could go either way. 

[johntfs]

3 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I think Ava has gone from hating Sara and the Legends to being into Sara pretty quickly.

While there was a tiny bit of progress in the second episode where Sara and Ava earned each other's respect in physical combat, figure the main breakthrough began in episode five when Sara turned in Rip to the Time Masters.  That showed Ava that Sara and the Legends were willing to put the higher mission above personal relationship.  The big breakthrough came in episode 9 with Sara and the Legends beating back the Darkhs and correcting the Level 12 anomaly.  Well, mostly correcting it.  Did anybody else note that Ava was affected by the anomaly and was wearing her hair down  in presumably the current Viking style?  Figure while you can get time mostly back on track, there always have to be some ripples once its been changed enough.  Perhaps Ava's hair and Ava's openness are part of those changes.

[Sakura12]

I don't need Sara's love interest to have a complicated history with her. I'd rather they didn't. However I'm just not feeling Ava. I know she was being set up as the love interest the moment they had scenes together. It's just for me they went about it the wrong way. Ava came in too aggressive and now she's suddenly shy and giggly. It's an abrupt change that is just making me roll my eyes. 

Sara's been my favorite character since the moment she appeared on Arrow Season 2, I'm protective of her and don't want her to have love interest just to have a love interest. I don't hate AvaLance and I know Caity and Jes are pushing it, so I'll deal with it. I just don't ship it. 

Edited February 14, 2018 by Sakura12

[Miss Dee]

I'm not feeling Ray/Zari. Which I'm sure comes as no shock to anyone! But I freely admit it is COMPLETELY my own prejudice and absolutely nothing to do with the show's choices, writing or acting or otherwise. In fact, I have to compliment everyone involved - they're not rushing things, they're not forcing any UST, they're just letting the characters breathe and interact and build up a dynamic as friends and colleagues first. Which is what is sparking everyone (except me) to go "Hey, Ray and Zari! What about that?"

The one successful way I've seen to get fans to board a ship is keep everything casual up to the point where shippers feel like the ship is their idea, something they're building up from the show's hints rather than something imposed on them, and therefore the eventual blossoming of the romance feels like a reward rather than something fans are forced to put up with. The writers are being very careful not to push this too much, Routh and Ashe are keeping things playful and charming, and it's paying off in spades. So kudos to everyone.

Now they just need to avoid 1) setting up a triangle (NO BLOODY EFFING SHIP WARS IN MY PRETTY FANDOM, PLEASE) and 2) prolonging everything to where people are sick and tired of waiting for it and stop caring.

[wingster55]

On 12/9/2017 at 9:23 PM, Sakura12 said:

I was hoping we'd get some reaction from Team Flash in the Crossover to Mick calling Sara boss. But she wasn't part of a Ship so she wasn't that important. We did get Mick calling her boss but that was in front of Alex. 

This is old...but why from them? Because they also have a team leader who's female (and a WOC)

[Sakura12]

1 hour ago, wingster55 said:

This is old...but why from them? Because they also have a team leader who's female (and a WOC)

Because Team Flash only knew Mick as an uncaring criminal arsonist, now he follows orders from Sara and fights for the good guys. 

[johntfs]

2 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

Because Team Flash only knew Mick as an uncaring criminal arsonist, now he follows orders from Sara and fights for the good guys. 

They didn't only know him as that.  Mick was around for the last crossover, after all.  That said, the idea that he's fully accepted Sara as his new boss should have raised some eyebrows.  We might get some extra comment/reaction when Wally eventually joins the team.

[lurker22]

I think the surprise is that Mick would actually listen to Sara and follow her orders. He's only known to be loyal to Snart and Snart alone, so to see him call Sara "Boss" and obey her orders without question would be unexpected.

I look at the current state of Team Arrow and how fractured and distrusting they are of each other, and I'm grateful and appreciative of how good a leader Sara has become. Her team admires and respects her, and they are truly more like family than just teammates.

[tennisgurl]

It is kind of hilarious that, for all that Team Legends is known as the resident screw ups of the Arrowverse, they really do work well as a team. Yeah they have their issues (and occasional betrayals) but, for the most part, they get along really well, work together, enjoy each others company, accept new members quickly, and are understanding of each others quirks and flaws. They really do come across as people that deeply care about each other as family, even when they drive each other insane. 

I do think a lot of that is due to Sara's leadership, and how far she has come since her introduction on Arrow. Also, with last weeks episode, Sara has now hooked up with a character from every show in the Arrowverse! At least, the live action bits. And while Black Lightening isn't a part of the universe yet, that could change...

[Sakura12]

The Legends also have the advantage of living together and sharing 1 bathroom, that will really make you close. :lol: 

I do think Sara's leadership style does help them work together since she does listen to their ideas. I liked when Rip finally came back in season 2, he went off to do research by himself while Sara and the team were brainstorming around Gideon and coming up with ideas as a team. I also think that Gideon likes being more involved with the team too, she's certainly much more comfortable making fun of them and arguing like the them. Sara treats everyone like they matter and are important to the team. 

The other shows teams don't really have that equal balance. 

[johntfs]

2 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

And while Black Lightening isn't a part of the universe yet, that could change...

Sara and Anissa would melt the TV screen.

[Miss Dee]

I still need to see the bathroom. I want Ally McBeal scenes in that puppy. I want fighting over the mirror when brushing their teeth. 

[lurker22]

5 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

The Legends also have the advantage of living together and sharing 1 bathroom, that will really make you close. :lol: 

I do think Sara's leadership style does help them work together since she does listen to their ideas. I liked when Rip finally came back in season 2, he went off to do research by himself while Sara and the team were brainstorming around Gideon and coming up with ideas as a team. I also think that Gideon likes being more involved with the team too, she's certainly much more comfortable making fun of them and arguing like the them. Sara treats everyone like they matter and are important to the team. 

The other shows teams don't really have that equal balance. 

Living together and not getting to have a break from one another could actually create more friction, so I'm glad that's not the case with the Legends.

Sara is definitely more inclusive as a leader. Occasionally she'll put her foot down and insist they do things her way, but majority of the time, they come up with plans together as a team, and she's really good at recognizing the strengths and weaknesses of each of her team members and using them in the best way possible when executing the plan. I think we got a glimpse of her leadership style on Arrow when they were going against the Huntress and when she disagreed with Oliver, she asked what Felicity and Diggle thought. Oliver was mostly the opposite - his way or the high way. 

[MarkHB]

8 hours ago, Miss Dee said:

I still need to see the bathroom. I want Ally McBeal scenes in that puppy. I want fighting over the mirror when brushing their teeth. 

If Legends had the same production designer as Supergirl, you won't.  Kara's loft had a bathroom when the show shot in LA; when they moved to Vancouver the new loft didn't have one because the new PD hates bathrooms (he said it in an interview).  I bet he had a hand in the Star Labs pipeline cells as well.

[Miss Dee]

Dammit, one bathroom for eight people is a Checkhov's Shitter and I WANT IT, PDs be damned!

?

[Sakura12]

Since it was brought up in the "Here I go again" thread, I thought I'd bring it here. 

While I'm not really feeling Avalance. With Nyssa I never really felt that Sara loved Nyssa the way Nyssa loved her. Of course there is also the fact that we never really saw them together the first time. However from what I've seen now Nyssa will always have a spot in Sara's heart but she's not in love with her. Plus their relationship also kind of felt like another Stockholm syndrome situation. Sara wasn't there by choice since she was brought there while she was half dead then it was Ra's decision to either kill her or let her join the league. Sara laughing at him and (maybe meeting in her 1959) made him decide to let her join. Where the only way she could leave was to die or have assassins sent after her and her family. Now I understand Sara understands Nyssa's upbringing and accepts it, it is still not a healthy relationship. 

Sara has grown so much being away from the league and Nyssa that she is a different person then the one Nyssa knew. They are on different paths and want different things which is what she told Alex. Her and Nyssa are not going to work anymore. She does think about it probably when she's lonely and wants the companionship she had with Nyssa but I don't think Sara would actually go back to her. 

With Ava, I don't mind the idea of Ava. I just don't like the way she was introduced and her sudden turnaround. It seemed so telegraphed and forced that it's not working for me. I just feel they gave Sara a love interest just to give her one. When I'm more for the relationships that happen naturally with or without the writers. And these writers have proven to be terrible at writing scripted relationships Ray/Kendra and Nata/Amaya. I like Ray/Zari because they are not writing any romance for them, it's happening just with them hanging out and interacting with each other.  That's why I would've been on board with Mick/Amaya which then took a sharp left to Nate/Amaya. So at this rate these writers go Zari will probably hook up with Wally. 

[tennisgurl]

Ava is fine as she is now, and she and Sara have decent chemistry, but I wish we had maybe one episode between Beebo (when Ava started being nice to the Legends) DD, where she and Sara are rather flirty. I mean, she did have some moments of showing a softer side towards the gang, or at least a side that wasn't totally hostile, but I would have liked to see a bit more of a turn around. She almost seems like a different character now, with just hints of the original character we met. Then I could buy the relationship more. As it is now, I dont hate them or anything, and I highly doubt they will hurt my enjoyment of the show, but i think it could have been done better. 

Really, its just because I hold these writers to higher standards than the writers of most of the Arrowverse writers. 

[Aeryn13]

Quote

With Ava, I don't mind the idea of Ava. I just don't like the way she was introduced and her sudden turnaround. It seemed so telegraphed and forced that it's not working for me. I just feel they gave Sara a love interest just to give her one. When I'm more for the relationships that happen naturally with or without the writers. 

I agree. 

I felt they brought in Ava as bitchy, bitchy, bitchy for the first few episodes and then the Viking episode, it was like the script said "okay, Season is half-way over, we need to get going with the romance stuff now, forget everything that came bfore, let Ava put her hair down and suddenly be much nicer". Since then, the character is all giggly and flirty and totally crushing on Sara. She got a complete personality overhaul, a complete overhaul on how she even looks at Sara and interacts with her.

Was the seething disdain for Sara and the legends seriously because of her hairdo? Because that is the only real change I can pinpoint it to.  

I`m just not feeling the ship at all and admittedly some part of it is also how the actress for Ava is just not doing it for me. 

Now obviously the writers are committed to putting the Avalance ship together. Frankly, I just hope it is not permanent.

I`d say the Legends writers are the best out of the Arrow-verse shows in terms of creating fun, likeable characters and quirky, slightly goofy stories. But their romance writing is just a huge weak link for me. Ray and Kendra didn`t work for me at all. Mick and Amaya? Lets say I can accept them but when episodes turn to their relationship drama, I roll my eyes. Now Avalance feels really forced to me.

Where the writers do excel IMO is creating some friendship chemistry with unusual pairings. Mick and Amaya used to have some really good scenes before it was all about her yes/no/yes/no with Nate. So do Ray and Mick. Now I`ve liked both Zari and Ray and Zari and Nate. I do not want those characters to hook up but I want to continue to have fun, quirky scenes with them.  

[tarotx]

I feel like I missed an episode before Bebo that softened Ava a bit but other than that I don't think Avalance has anti chemistry. On that level I'm OK with it. I don't want Sara stuck on an island. Plus Ava has the potential to be a boring Sara 2.0. 

Edited February 22, 2018 by tarotx

[Starfish35]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

I felt they brought in Ava as bitchy, bitchy, bitchy for the first few episodes and then the Viking episode, it was like the script said "okay, Season is half-way over, we need to get going with the romance stuff now, forget everything that came bfore, let Ava put her hair down and suddenly be much nicer". Since then, the character is all giggly and flirty and totally crushing on Sara. She got a complete personality overhaul, a complete overhaul on how she even looks at Sara and interacts with her.

Yeah I agree.  I mean, I thought they had some good interaction in the last episode, and I don't hate it (though it's not exactly what I would have liked to see for Sara) but....this Ava might as well be a completely different character than the one we started the season with.  

And I hope this doesn't become Sara's only real storyline going forward.  I still want to see her relationships with the team, and not just as their captain.  

[Sakura12]

I guess I have to see Ava as this new character to work with her being Sara's love interest. I just wish it was handled better. I suppose that's the best I could hope for with these writers. They are so good at friendships and fail so much at romance. 

[Starfish35]

I think the thing is for me.....I'm not anti-shipping in general.  I have shipped and will ship again. :)  But I have found that, pretty much across the board, the Arrowverse writers just don't do ships in a way that pushes my shipping buttons, for whatever reason.  I don't hate their ships, generally speaking (Lauriver being the one glaring exception).  But they don't generally grab me either.

What does generally draw me in is the friendships and family relationships, and I think that's one thing Legends has done probably better than any of the shows.  I love "team/found family" relationships, and those are the type of shows I generally get the most fannish about.  And Legends does hit all of those "shipping" buttons extremely well, and consistently.  Not that I haven't ever had any complaints, but I'm here for the team, not the ships, and as long as they don't mess that up, I'll probably still be here.

[tennisgurl]

Maybe Ava's super tight ponytail was making all the blood rush to her head and she was always in a bad mood due to headaches. When she took it down for five minutes to replace a broken hair band, she lost the headache and become a nice person!

5 hours ago, Starfish35 said:

 But I have found that, pretty much across the board, the Arrowverse writers just don't do ships in a way that pushes my shipping buttons, for whatever reason.  I don't hate their ships, generally speaking (Lauriver being the one glaring exception).  But they don't generally grab me either.

I totally agree. Most of the ship that the Arrowverse create that scream "THIS IS A COUPLE NOW" tend to fall flat for me (Laurel/Oliver, Ray/Kendra, Kara/Mon-El), while the ones I tend to actually like just kind of happen organically (Felicity/Oliver, Rip/Sara) without being shoehorned into the plot just because they felt they needed a romance. However, they do a consistently good job writing platonic relations. Family, friends, teammates, those they can do just fine. LoT is definitely the best (of all the teams, they really do feel the most like people who do truly love each other as family, for better or worse) at this dynamic, but the other shows do a good job as well. Its just when people start sucking face out of nowhere that they start to lose me :) 

[MarkHB]

22 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I felt they brought in Ava as bitchy, bitchy, bitchy for the first few episodes and then the Viking episode, it was like the script said "okay, Season is half-way over, we need to get going with the romance stuff now, forget everything that came bfore, let Ava put her hair down and suddenly be much nicer". Since then, the character is all giggly and flirty and totally crushing on Sara. She got a complete personality overhaul, a complete overhaul on how she even looks at Sara and interacts with her.

I can't remember which episode featured the fight between Ava and Sara, but that was the turning point.  I'll spare the story of my own first kiss except to say that adrenaline is love juice.

[Sakura12]

And yet she was still calling Sara and the team idiots and trying take away their ship after that. 

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I totally agree. Most of the ship that the Arrowverse create that scream "THIS IS A COUPLE NOW" tend to fall flat for me (Laurel/Oliver, Ray/Kendra, Kara/Mon-El),

Kara/Mon-El had a similar problem for me to Avalance. I mean, Kara wasn`t all the time disdainful because that`not her because she was also clearly not interested. And then suddenly that shifted to her falling madly in love with him. I got whiplash from it and I didn`t hate them as a couple.

Quote

And yet she was still calling Sara and the team idiots and trying take away their ship after that. 

Agreed. When that episode aired, I actually thought they would use that to thaw Ava out, on Sara at least but she was still super-bitchy and utterly disdainful for the next few episodes. It`s really like two distinct characters, the one with the tight bun and the one with the loose hair-do.   

Quote

And I hope this doesn't become Sara's only real storyline going forward.  I still want to see her relationships with the team, and not just as their captain.  

And especially not sitting out missions all the time to spend time with Ava. I`ll have to accept that this is a ship the writers want to pursue but if it interferes with Sara being in the thick of things with her crew, that`s a line crossed.  

[johntfs]

On 2/23/2018 at 12:29 PM, Aeryn13 said:

And especially not sitting out missions all the time to spend time with Ava. I`ll have to accept that this is a ship the writers want to pursue but if it interferes with Sara being in the thick of things with her crew, that`s a line crossed.  

For my part they haven't really sold me on the idea the Sara wants anything more than a casual romantic relationship with anybody, Ava included.  I mean, two episodes ago she was cool with fucking John Constantine in a 1960s mental institution's laundry room.

[tennisgurl]

So, I have a confession to make. I...just dont care about Avalance. I dont hate it or anything, and I like this new personality that they've given Ava recently, and it doesn't hurt the show for me. I just feel very meh about it. Maybe its the actors? But Caity has chemistry with everyone, so I dont think thats it. Maybe because its kind of being shoved onto us, instead of happening organically? But, I've shipped other ships that have clearly been "this shall be romance now" and those were fine if written well. Maybe its because Ava was obviously brought on to be a love interest? But, they've tried to give her some development (I think my favorite scenes of her were probably this week when she was with Constantine and Gary) and its worked alright. I just dont know whats not clicking for me. Again, its not real full on dislike, and I admit they've had some cute scenes, and I want Sara to be happy, but I just dont care much. Maybe its not even the ship itself, but the fact that this ship has enveloped most of the fandom, other than here, and thats annoying to me? I tend to get bored of fandoms that only have one or two characters or ships they care about, and I dont want to see that happen here. And, again, not hating on shippers or anything. I dont begrudge them their happiness, and if AvaLance makes so many fans happy and want to watch the show, then I hope it sticks around. Honestly, I just feel like I am missing something. 

And its extra weird, because I seriously ship EVERYONE else on this show, or can at least see it. Sara/Rip? Amaya/Nate? Amaya/Mick? Mick/Ray? Nate/Ray? Zari/Ray? Zari/Wally? Zari/Amaya? Sara/Nyssa? John/Sara? Hell, freaking Gary/John? Those all sound like totally legit ships to get behind. Honestly, I've seen sparks between just about everyone on this show (except Martin, who was happily married thank you very much), both in the main cast and the reoccurring and guest cast, and yet...I just dont get the AvaLance love. Is there something wrong with me? 

Edited March 20, 2018 by tennisgurl

[scarynikki12]

19 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Is there something wrong with me? 

Nope, I'm not a fan either.  For me it's because they managed to telegraph that Ava would be the big love interest on social media while also not actually doing anything in show to lay the groundwork that either character was interested in the other until the Beebo episode.  They did such a poor job that I was starting to think Ava was a misdirect and they'd make Gary or Constantine the big love interest.  Then she (literally) let her hair down, letting us know that This Was The Episode To Start Shipping Her With Sara, and revealed that she wasn't into men, at which point Sara started showing interest.  It was just sloppy.  I've said it felt like a switch was flipped because that's the only way I can describe it.  I've gotten on board with other ships for Sara, including her relationship with Oliver, her history with Nyssa that Lotz and Law pulled off with only a few scenes, and, of course, her growing attachment for Snart that was both friendship and attraction.  I've also enjoyed her various flings and flirtations, with Camelot being my personal favorite so far, so my conclusion is that Arrow did it better in season 2 and LOT does a good job when they aren't trying for Epic Romance.  If they'd treated the relationship with Ava the way they did Snart then I'd probably be on board but it was just sloppy.

[Lady Calypso]

I did like Ava/Sara in this past episode...until they got into the whole "come back to me" stuff at the end. I think they're good as a temporary relationship, a way for Sara to have a romantic relationship for a short time, but I don't see it lasting very long at all. It's not one where I could see them getting married down the road, for instance. Also, it's similar to the mess that was Kendra and Ray in season 1, where it was very heavily telegraphed on what was going on but the execution was very poor in itself to get to that point. 

I think Sara is capable of being in a long term relationship. I just don't see it with Ava. I saw it with Nyssa, but that's about it. I don't know; I think Jes and Caity are trying to sell the relationship, but it's falling flat for me. 

[Sakura12]

For me it's I just don't feel a romantic chemistry between Sara and Ava. They don't have anti-chemistry or anything, I just don't feel the love. Lol. Which is weird because I felt that Caity's has had more chemistry with her one off love interests, the nurse from the 50's, Alex from Supergirl, Guinevere from Camelot and even Constantine. I hate Rip but him and Sara have more chemistry than her and Ava. Then of course Oliver and Nyssa even though we got so few scenes of them together I felt their love. The casual flirting with Leonard was fun too. 

Sara and Ava are just meh. I don't hate them but I felt nothing when they broke up besides feeling bad for Sara. And I do want Sara to be happy the poor girl deserves nice things. I just don't feel the writers did a good job building that relationship into something I want to root for. 

[tennisgurl]

It doesn't help that Ava really isn't Sara's normal type, exactly. Sara, when she is into someone for more than an episode, tends to go for people who, like her, struggle with their dark sides and have a troubled past that they are trying to deal with, and occasionally dont deal with it well. I think you could definitely draw some interesting conclusions, actually, to the fact that Sara is often attracted to people who are damaged, as Sara is quite damaged herself. Not sure what those conclusions are, but I do think its a notable pattern. 

 I think thats something that might be rubbing me wrong, at least in how shippers are looking at the relationship, to an extent. You could make the case that Ava being more of a rule following "good girl" could be a nice change for her, and they kind of referenced that with her "you take girls like Ava to meet the parents, you take me to the exorcism" comment, but that just seemed more sad to me than anything else. It looks like the show is setting her up to be the one to "save Sara from her darkness" and that Ava is just a wonderful person who will finally be the love that Sara deserves. Now that I am thinking about it more, I think I might be getting a little annoyed with the idea that Ava is a "good girl" so her relationship with her is better than her previous relationships? Not that all of her past romances were exactly healthy or anything, but it seems like something of a ret con, making Ava go from this Lawful Stupid asshole who would happily send innocent people to suffer if it meant the time stream would be alright, to this lovely super well adjusted person who is too nice and normal for someone as messed up as Sara, without a lot of time to show how she went from point A to point B, and it seems to be retroactively making her past romances with less "good" people to seem like symptoms of her issues? Yeah, maybe I am reading into it a bit too much, but a lot of fans seem to going hard on the "Ava is finally the sweet wonderful hero who will save Sara", and I dont really like that idea. Not only is it too simplistic (yeah, being in a happy relationship would probably help a messed up person get less messed up, but it cant be the ONLY thing) but it looks kind of bad when you discard her relationships with people like Oliver, Nyssa, or even Snart or John as being just plain unhealthy because they were also rather messed up people who went through a lot of bad stuff, like Sara, when they were really more complex than that, or even just writing all of her other romantic partners off as damaged goods who were never good enough for Sara. Maybe thats the issue I keep having? Or am I overthinking? 

On the other hand, I was living for how worried Zari was when Ray was hurt. Now that is a ship I can sail on!

Edited March 20, 2018 by tennisgurl

[Starfish35]

4 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

On the other hand, I was living for how worried Zari was when Ray was hurt. Now that is a ship I can sail on!

Did she call him "schmience guy?" :)

I just finished the episode, and.....yeah.  I agree about AvaLance.  I know a lot of people are excited about it, but it just does nothing for me.  I mean, I liked Ava this episode otherwise.  Her exasperated relationship with Gary cracks me up, and her antagonism toward Constantine was hilarious (I almost felt like I saw more sparks there than between her and Sara).  And I loved the scene where she reluctantly places just one finger in Constantine's hand.   I do have to give credit to Jes Macallen - she is a good actress.  

But I just don't buy the Sara/Ava relationship.   The scene where she's pleading for Sara to come back to her felt totally unearned, and it bothered me a little in that break-up scene because it felt like Ava was trying to change or "rescue" Sara from her past.  I think part of Sara's journey this season is going to be accepting her past - not being "saved" from it by her girlfriend's love.  There is darkness and death in Sara's past, but it also shaped her into who she is.

Other relationship things - I do love the big sister/little brother relationship that's developing between Zari and Wally, and Sara and Nate - I like his casual supportiveness of her.  And Amaya is the one to believe in Mick's ability to be a totem bearer - that felt right.  And canon team mom Sara - lol. ;)

Edited March 21, 2018 by Starfish35

[johntfs]

Next season with Constantine on the ship is going to be interesting.  I could see him forming an alliance with Zari over changing time for the better.  More than anything he wants to get Astra out of Hell.  I could also see a friendship/partnership forming between John and Mick.  To one degree or another, they're both criminally inclined.

[tarotx]

To me it feels like I missed an episode or two of The AvaLance relationship. It's weird. I find they are cute together but that's it. It's super early for this kind of saving scene to matter Imo. The breakup was super similar to Sara"s with Olivers. As I said in the episode thread, that's what got to me.

http://tarotx.tumblr.com/post/172064917999/kd2900-i-care-about-you-too-much-to-be-with

Edited March 21, 2018 by tarotx

[Sakura12]

I agree that Sara's relationship with Ava has taken away her team bonding time with the ones that are left. I wanted to see the team really fight to save their Captain when she was possessed not someone that's known her for 3 weeks. I know they helped but Ava was the only one that actually looked worried about her. While Ava should and can be worried we barely got anything from her team that's known her for years. 

I get the sentiment behind Ava saving Sara with her love is going with the trope that's usually with m/f relationship. It just wasn't enough time for it be earned imo, I would've felt the same way if Ava was a male love interest.  It's a tell not show that is often used when they want to rush a romance. That's why the planned love interests don't always work for me. It feels too much like we need to get from here, to here, to here. It never really feels natural that way. 

Edited April 7, 2018 by Sakura12

[Starfish35]

I think that was one of the biggest issues I had with Necromancing the Stone.  It would have been far more powerful to me to see Sara pulled back by the love and faith of her team in her, rather than having her pulled back by the power of a relationship that had been going on all of three weeks.  

[Miss Dee]

So, on a slightly happier note (for me, anyway)....

I told ya, AtomWave's gonna happen. It's inevitable. ?

Edited April 7, 2018 by Miss Dee

[johntfs]

I posted in Spoilers and Speculation an idea of how Amaya would stay on the ship without Nick.  At least part of that is wishful thinking because I'd like more scenes with Amaya and Mick.  I won't say that I "ship" them exactly, but I notice they both seem more relaxed and open with each other than with any of the other Legends.

[BaggythePanther]

On 3/20/2018 at 6:01 PM, tennisgurl said:

On the other hand, I was living for how worried Zari was when Ray was hurt. Now that is a ship I can sail on!

I’m so glad someone else sees this. I was starting to worry that I was alone in this ship.

[johntfs]

57 minutes ago, BaggythePanther said:

I’m so glad someone else sees this. I was starting to worry that I was alone in this ship.

I kind of like the idea of Ray and Nora somehow.  Mostly just because the idea of Damien being Ray's father-in-law is hilarious to me and I love Brandon and Neal in their scenes together.

Zari and Mick would be interesting, too.  I think half his supposed ignorance about her food taboos was him messing with her to get a rise out of her as a little payback for snooping into his novel. 

[legaleagle53]

On 2/15/2018 at 2:56 PM, tennisgurl said:

It is kind of hilarious that, for all that Team Legends is known as the resident screw ups of the Arrowverse

I thought that was Barry Allen's title.

[Sakura12]

I love the Legends but I think they've screwed up just as much as Barry has. I just like the Legends and don't like Barry. Lol

The Legends are the team that functions like an actual team, while the other ones are floundering on who's the leader, going against each other and not knowing how to work together. The Legends are a family, the bicker, they disagree, make up, come together to fight the battle, hug it out, then go out for drinks.  I think they should go teach the other teams, team work.