S06.E08: Season 6, Episode 8

[Free]

I find the row between Mary and Branson very one sided.

 

Rows involving Mary tend to be that way.

[ichbin]

Has everyone completely forgotten about that?

Nope, not me!  I completely agree with everything in your post. 

[RedWolf]

Ah, but Mary also snidely believed Edith had little to no chance at all of finding a man so scotching the one relationship she'd managed to scrape up was pretty cruel.

 

And I am pretty sure outing Marigold as a bastard child has effectively ruined *Marigold's* chances of upper class marriage. What did Marigold do to Mary to deserve that?

 

The funny thing is that Edith could have at least tried to screw Mary over. I mean, sure Henry Talbot was ready to marry Mary... but did *he* know about Kemal Pamuk? Did he know Mary's idea of a "sketching vacation" involves fucking unmarried men? (and funny how Mary's honor didn't demand she tell Henry about these transgressions)

 

Don't get me wrong, Edith has her bitch moments, but the Pamuk thing ultimately went no where and Mary learned that lesson so well, she managed to get blackmailed *again*. Whereas Mary's little fit in the last episode pretty much guaranteed Marigold's public shaming. Edith and Mary blaming their bitchy ugly games is fine as long as no one else is getting hurt. That kind of revelation in that time would have ruined a child's future. That's dirty pool on Mary.

But did Mary really ruin Marigold's future? All she did was tell Bertie (which in no way justifies any of Mary's actions but as I said in a previous post they were all taken over by aliens IMO in this episode, except for Bertie actually. I think he was the only one who didn't tell Mary to marry Talbot or express his opinion on the matter.) who I don't think is going to announce to the whole world that Marigold was born out of wedlock wether he marries Edith or not. 

 

Mary didn't tell Talbot about Pamuk and Gillingham because she is not really in love with him. She only married Talbot because Aliens brainwashed her and Tom told her too. 

[DeccaMitford]

 

I mean, sure Henry Talbot was ready to marry Mary... but did *he* know about Kemal Pamuk? Did he know Mary's idea of a "sketching vacation" involves fucking unmarried men? (and funny how Mary's honor didn't demand she tell Henry about these transgressions)

 

I'm not sure this is really comparable with the Marigold situation. Mary's sexual history before she met Talbot wouldn't really affect their marriage (and honestly, I don't think Mary was under any obligation to tell Matthew about Pamuk either, except she was so worried and guilty about it). It might make their relationship a little less honest and communicative, but it's not like Mary's history would have a physical embodiment in the house. Edith did have an obligation to tell Bertie the deal with Marigold because she was asking him to accept Marigold into his family while pretending that Marigold was a foundling: the situation was ongoing. (As an aside, this is also why Mr. Drewe should have told his wife the deal with Marigold from the beginning. That arrangement was always bound to be a clusterfuck, but a lot of angst could have been avoided if poor Mrs. Drewe had been given the truth about who the kid was and why they were taking her in.)

 

It absolutely wasn't Mary's place to tell Bertie about Marigold, and any attempt to give her honorable motives in doing so is pretty much bullshit, but I don't think she's hypocritical for not telling Talbot about her past. In some ways I think it's a sign of Mary's development - she's a stronger, more in control person than she was when she married Matthew.

[ZoloftBlob]

All she did was tell Bertie (which in no way justifies any of Mary's actions but as I said in a previous post they were all taken over by aliens IMO in this episode, except for Bertie actually. I think he was the only one who didn't tell Mary to marry Talbot or express his opinion on the matter.) who I don't think is going to announce to the whole world that Marigold was born out of wedlock wether he marries Edith or not.

 

To be fair to Bertie, he doesn't seem the type to blab, but how does Mary know that? And remember, the premise of this show is that there's always servants lurking and listening, ready to blackmail you so...

 

Mary's sexual history before she met Talbot wouldn't really affect their marriage

I think that actually would have depending on Talbot. I mean sure, she was married so he's not expecting a virgin but remember, people have openly tried to blackmail Lady Mary over the affair with Gillingham.... How will Talbot react if a serving wench comes to the door with a true tale?

 

I mean, this is the creepo who told Mary he'd hang around and make her miserable until she said yes... if this was a Lifetime Movie, he'd ALREADY be hitting her.

[Daisy]

I just watched and I thought it was lovely. 

 

Re; Mary v. Edith - Mary shouldn't have said what she said - but at the same time, if Edith was going to announce it (which was basically where they were going with it) - then Edith should have told Bertie about Marigold. Period. Mary's nuke wouldn't had any power had Edith had told him what he needed to know. I find this very similar to the Matthew v. Mary plot when Cora was pregnant. ultimately, Matthew's biggest thing was, he would never know if Mary loved him for him, or loved him for the Title. And that's Bertie's thing. even Edith said it - he would have come round on Marigold eventually, but in my estimation - Edith should have told him the moment it got serious She had to take that risk. It is about trust, and I don't think she did, not really, or she would have. 

 

(And I am still mad at Edith for hurting unseen Swiss couple + the Drewes). 

 

I don't know why they pushed the Mary/Henry thing, I really thought at one point Tom was seriously going to go... what the hell am I doing this for and kiss Mary or something. I'm fine with the the whole race-car driver thing, but I hope that Henry does give it up. 

 

Cassandra Jones is Spratt. teeee and heeeee. 

 

Barrow's suicide was sad, and it really makes me want to smack Carson sometimes (or everyone) because He (Barrow) has stated constantly for years that Downton is his home. and especially with the whole homosexuality thing coming to light, it is very much now a place where he is 'accepted' (for the time and what it means) as he is. Like honestly, y'all. good on Baxter

 

Mosely was awesome per usual. 

 

I really have a hankering to watch Season 1 again. 

 

[minamurray78]

I don't think the Pamuk and Marigold scecrets are comparable (not talking about the potential for scandal, but in terms of  whether Mary adn Edith's SO should know about it).

Pamuk and Gillingham are Mary's past and private life. Other than certain expectations within the context of the show (like when she told Matthew I guess), she's not obligated to tell Henry or anybody else about them. I mean, did Henry tell her about his former mistresses? Is there any scandal lurking around that may come afloat now that he's married an earl's daughter? well, we'll see.

Now Marigold, OTOH, is a human being. She's going to be Edith's daughter forever. Public scandal aside, let's just think about the implications of living in a house with a ward who's actually your child and a husband who's unaware of that. I think it would have been unbareable for Edith to raise wathever children she could have with Bertie as her own, and still treat Marigold as a ward. And if Marigold where to know the truth, gosh, horrible. Bertie needed to know not just for his sake, but for the child's as well.

In fact, I tihnk this a topic that the show has completely ignored in the abbey: what does Marigold call Edith? what happens when she grows up and starts asking questions about her origins? Edith loved Gregson and went through an ordeal to get to keep Marigold, could she really just lie about that? What of when Edith hears George or Sivvie call for their mam and dad? I don't know that this is a secret she could have kept in the abbey forever adn certainly not in her own house, with her husband and maybe new children.

It is just contrived writing that made Edith say yes to Bertie without telling him first and making sure he would accept her daughter as such, and from what I read here, Fellowes is the only writer? Well, no wonder there are so many poorly resolved plots.

Awful, awful writing.

[shipperx]

Here is the thing as far as I'm concerned:

Yes, Bertie has a right to be upset.

Yes, Edith dragged her feet too long out of fear. She should have told Bertie. That's only right. And it was unwise to proceed without giving him the truth. It's unfair to Marigold, to Bertie, and to herself. Allso, yes, she would have robbed Mary's bombshell had she done so. Edith made bad decisions and mistakes (largely out of fear, so yes there was cowardliness.)

And I think Edith understands all of this, and accepts it. (Although at this point the woman has to wonder whether she should have joined a convent. No romance has ever worked out for her. Ever. )

It's also true that Mary dropped the bomb out of pure maliciousness. Edith might *gasp* be in a better emotional place than Mary at that precise moment in time and Mary does NOT tolerate that sort of thing. Mary is the shiny shiny star in this circle. Edith at center stage? Inconceivable! Intolerable. There will. be. Consequences. (And more than just a spiffy haircut). ...so Mary decided to knock Edith down 'to where Edith belongs' (which is below Mary. Always).

Mary is not directly responsible for Edith's situation.

However, Mary is responsible for Mary's motives... which were 'being spiteful' and --Tom totally called it perfectly--being a bully.

Edith remaining unmarried -- NOT Mary's fault.

Being spitetful, domineering, and mean spirited then playing innocent about her bitchy motives -- totally Mary.

Like her or hate her for it, it's the way she has always treated her sister.

Edited November 10, 2015 by shipperx

[ZoloftBlob]

I don't think the Pamuk and Marigold scecrets are comparable (not talking about the potential for scandal, but in terms of  whether Mary adn Edith's SO should know about it

 

I admit to being pedantic (and truthfully I'm not that invested in this since it was a whole pile of suck) but here goes.

 

The secrets boil down to this.

 

Edith slept with someone outside of marriage.

 

Mary slept with someone (several actually) outside of marriage.

 

If the basic act is wrong, then both Bertie and Henry need to know what they are marrying. I get the child drama issues as to why Edith needs to be more honest with Marigold, but its entirely likely that revealing Mary's past lovers would have taken some of the shine off Henry's creepy love...

 

It's not that big a deal, but Edith could have dropped a bomb as well.

[Free]

Being spitetful, domineering, and mean spirited then playing innocent about her bitchy motives -- totally Mary.

 

This episode amped up those qualities for whatever reason.

 

It's also true that Mary dropped the bomb out of pure maliciousness. Edith might *gasp* be in a better emotional place than Mary at that precise moment in time and Mary does NOT tolerate that sort of thing... so she decided to knock Edith down 'to where Edith belongs' (which is below Mary. Always).

 

And this right here is why there are people who don't like her character and why they do blame Mary.

 

Fellowes is the only writer? Well, no wonder there are so many poorly resolved plots.

Awful, awful writing.

 

Yup, personally I've felt that way since S4, this episode only solidified it with the mess that it became.

 

Mary didn't tell Talbot about Pamuk and Gillingham because she is not really in love with him. She only married Talbot because Aliens brainwashed her and Tom told her too.

 

She was pushed into it because Fellowes rushed a wedding and 'happy' ending for her despite having a final season to plan things out properly.

Edited November 10, 2015 by Free

[vesperholly]

Mary shouldn't have said what she said - but at the same time, if Edith was going to announce it (which was basically where they were going with it) - then Edith should have told Bertie about Marigold. Period. Mary's nuke wouldn't had any power had Edith had told him what he needed to know.

 

Mary had plenty of opportunity to mince her words or correct herself when she saw the look on Edith's face. Mary KNEW that Edith didn't tell Bertie yet, based on Edith's stunned reaction when Mary started to speak. Mary could have corrected herself and said Bertie was lovely for accepting their family's ward into his and Edith's new life. Instead she tested the waters, stuck her toe in, stuck her foot in, then pushed Edith with all her might into the lake. Callous and cruel.

 

Of course Edith should have told Bertie about Marigold, and I think she would have before too long, but she probably never though Mary would stoop so low.

[DeccaMitford]

Yes. Edith should have told him, but when Mary said she assumed Edith already had, she was lying.

And it's not like Mary was doing it for Bertie's benefit: she didn't give a shit about him, and spent a not insignificant portion of the episode making fun of him. If she had any actual noble motives here, she would have done something like corner Edith, tell her that she knew the truth, and urge her to tell Bertie. Some kind of "if you don't tell him I will, he has the right to know" threat would have still been officious and out of line, and I doubt Edith would have taken it well, but it wouldn't have been the nuclear option that Mary chose (and she could have at least pretended to be the good guy with a straight face.) If, after the reveal, Bertie had replied that he did know, and he still wanted to marry Edith, you know Mary would have been livid.

 

She did it to hurt Edith, she was jealous of Edith's happiness and impending rank, and she wanted to hurt her in as humiliating a manner as possible. And for all that the audience knows that Bertie's a pretty decent guy who probably won't tell anybody what he learned, Mary didn't know that: she never spent any time with him or took any interest in him in order to know it. And for all the talk of Edith snarking at Mary, you'd think that if Mary found it that unbearable she'd love for Edith to be married and gone and out of her hair.

[ZoloftBlob]

She did it to hurt Edith, she was jealous of Edith's happiness and impending rank, and she wanted to hurt her in as humiliating a manner as possible

 

I have to agree. This wasn't set up as "Mary has genuine moral concerns about the situation" but as "Mary ain't calling that bitch 'your grace' and bowing to her, no goddamn way!"

 

I mean, we can go on about who is and isn't "even" but really - that moment wasn't about Pamuk or Strallan or Matthew - it was about Mary being a jealous twat that her sister was about to outshine her once and for all, and she wasn't having it so she grabbed the one arrow in the quiver left.

 

AGain, if it was just Edith, I wouldn't mind, but it affects other people, which makes the entire "Oh Mary, why don't you just admit this is about you wanting to marry Henry and we ALL support you and want that for you!" really incredibly tone deaf.

[kpw801]

Can someone please explain to me how a marriage between Mary and Henry would work? One of them would have to give up something they love, unless they live apart right?? Boy, what a ridiculous conclusion to an even more ridiculous "love" story?

I truly hated this ending. I would've preferred Charles Blake or Lord Gillingham coming back over this rubbish. I would've preferred Evelyn Napier even. Sigh, oh well.

I still can't get over how badly Tom's character was neutered this season.

I know.  I would have preferred Evelyn Napier too.  Strange how even Mary's cast offs don't judge her but Bertie walked away from Edith. 

[kpw801]

I just watched and I thought it was lovely. 

 

Re; Mary v. Edith - Mary shouldn't have said what she said - but at the same time, if Edith was going to announce it (which was basically where they were going with it) - then Edith should have told Bertie about Marigold. Period. Mary's nuke wouldn't had any power had Edith had told him what he needed to know. I find this very similar to the Matthew v. Mary plot when Cora was pregnant. ultimately, Matthew's biggest thing was, he would never know if Mary loved him for him, or loved him for the Title. And that's Bertie's thing. even Edith said it - he would have come round on Marigold eventually, but in my estimation - Edith should have told him the moment it got serious She had to take that risk. It is about trust, and I don't think she did, not really, or she would have. 

 

(And I am still mad at Edith for hurting unseen Swiss couple + the Drewes). 

 

I don't know why they pushed the Mary/Henry thing, I really thought at one point Tom was seriously going to go... what the hell am I doing this for and kiss Mary or something. I'm fine with the the whole race-car driver thing, but I hope that Henry does give it up. 

 

Cassandra Jones is Spratt. teeee and heeeee. 

 

Barrow's suicide was sad, and it really makes me want to smack Carson sometimes (or everyone) because He (Barrow) has stated constantly for years that Downton is his home. and especially with the whole homosexuality thing coming to light, it is very much now a place where he is 'accepted' (for the time and what it means) as he is. Like honestly, y'all. good on Baxter

 

Mosely was awesome per usual. 

 

I really have a hankering to watch Season 1 again. 

 

I don't think Edith was ready to announce just yet.  Bertie should have noticed her reticence.  She did not say yes.  She told him she loved him and he said "I'll take that as a yes."  Then he kissed her and the camera cut away.  Edith did not know Bertie was going to announce at breakfast.  I think she was planning to tell him and trying to find the right way.  Remember, Mary only told the truth when her Dad flat out asked her about Parmuk.  Once she had his support, she finally told Matthew.  Edith was not comfortable with marrying Bertie with a lie.  It's just that Mary spitefully beat her to the punch.  All of Mary's antics have been unreasonably vicious and condescending.  I remember when Edith was jilted her mother told her things like this only make you stronger.  I believe of the two sisters Edith is the stronger woman.

[shipperx]

Before the episode I cut Mary the benefit of a doubt and predicted that Mary would be hurt that no one in the family had trusted her re: Marigold and that if she outed Edith it wouldn't be a deliberate outing. Turns out the episode only proved why no one should trust Mary with anything concerning Edith because Mary promptly used the info to hit Edith for the sole reason that Mary happened to be in a bad mood!

Edited November 10, 2015 by shipperx

[AllyB]

I was on a bus today and two old ladies sitting opposite me were discussing DA. Neither had seen the most recent episode as on the most popular cable package here, DA airs midweek rather than on Sunday.

Lady 1: What about that Mary?

Lady 2: Who?

Lady 1: The eldest daughter, buried her her husband, has a little boy. Always very glamorous.

Lady 2 still isn't sure who she's talking about.

Lady 1: She's a right pain in the neck.

Lady 2: Oh her with the black hair. I don't like her at all. Very mean.

Lady 1: She's awful.

Lady 2: I like her younger sister though.

Lady 1: The journalist? Oh yes she's great and a lovely mother to her little girl.

Lady 2: She is, and that wasn't easy back then. It all seems to be working out for her now though.

 

I could barely keep a straight face, They'll be cursing Mary when they see this episode.

 

Other topics covered were how the DC is the best and how sorry they feel for the poor housekeeper since she married that old fuddy duddy of a butler who is always moaning.

[spottedreptile]

I actually started to understand where Mary was coming from in this episode, and it's taken me eight seasons but better late than never I guess.

Mary doesn't like herself at all. For some reason best known to her, she doesn't want people to know the real Mary. She schemes and snarks as a pre-emptive attack in case people try to get to know her, and puts up fortresses of dislike so they won't. 

Talbot frightened her because he pierced her defences and got to know the real her. That terrified Mary because she hates someone holding up a mirror. 

I'm not that invested in Mary's character, so I'm not really interested if she and Henry make a go of it, but re-watching the last episode made some sense of the Mary situation for me, at last. 

[Avaleigh]

Here is the thing as far as I'm concerned:

Yes, Bertie has a right to be upset.

Yes, Edith dragged her feet too long out of fear. She should have told Bertie. That's only right. And it was unwise to proceed without giving him the truth. It's unfair to Marigold, to Bertie, and to herself. Allso, yes, she would have robbed Mary's bombshell had she done so. Edith made bad decisions and mistakes (largely out of fear, so yes there was cowardliness.)

And I think Edith understands all of this, and accepts it. (Although at this point the woman has to wonder whether she should have joined a convent. No romance has ever worked out for her. Ever. )

It's also true that Mary dropped the bomb out of pure maliciousness. Edith might *gasp* be in a better emotional place than Mary at that precise moment in time and Mary does NOT tolerate that sort of thing. Mary is the shiny shiny star in this circle. Edith at center stage? Inconceivable! Intolerable. There will. be. Consequences. (And more than just a spiffy haircut). ...so Mary decided to knock Edith down 'to where Edith belongs' (which is below Mary. Always).

Mary is not directly responsible for Edith's situation.

However, Mary is responsible for Mary's motives... which were 'being spiteful' and --Tom totally called it perfectly--being a bully.

Edith remaining unmarried -- NOT Mary's fault.

Being spitetful, domineering, and mean spirited then playing innocent about her bitchy motives -- totally Mary.

Like her or hate her for it, it's the way she has always treated her sister.

I agree with pretty much all of this. I don't think it's Mary's fault that Bertie called it off. Mary was totally a bitch for telling him the truth like that and it was a horrible thing for her to have done to her sister.

I think I differ in my take on it from most people is that I feel like I can totally understand why the sisters dislike each other and are constantly ready to show their cattiness and disapproval. In the breakfast scene, Edith said all sorts of things that made it crystal clear to me Mary would be annoyed. Edith was more than happy to rub Mary's face in the idea that her life is a mess while Edith's is way better. There's no way that I'd tell my single sister that my life is going way better than hers upon announcing my engagement. That's just obnoxious and unsurprising to see coming from Edith because victory to her doesn't seem to taste half as sweet if she can't trump Mary in some way. She's been this way since season one.

I sometimes feel like the idea is that it's okay for Edith to hate Mary but it isn't okay for Mary to hate Edith because Mary hae gone through life with more advantages.

This isn't the first time that Edith has gloated about how she's in a better place than Mary. She announced in front of everyone last season that everyone was getting on with their lives save Mary and when Mary had words for Edith, Edith acts all innocent like she doesn't understand why she gets on Mary's nerves.

It's old and they're both guilty of trying to hurt and deliberately tick off the other.

I admit to being pedantic (and truthfully I'm not that invested in this since it was a whole pile of suck) but here goes.

 

The secrets boil down to this.

 

Edith slept with someone outside of marriage.

 

Mary slept with someone (several actually) outside of marriage.

 

If the basic act is wrong, then both Bertie and Henry need to know what they are marrying. I get the child drama issues as to why Edith needs to be more honest with Marigold, but its entirely likely that revealing Mary's past lovers would have taken some of the shine off Henry's creepy love...

 

It's not that big a deal, but Edith could have dropped a bomb as well.

Small point but Mary has had sex with two guys out of wedlock. When it comes to this I'd say she and Edith are pretty even.

Marigold seems like a MUCH bigger secret than Pamuk or Gillingham on every level.

[ZoloftBlob]

Marigold seems like a MUCH bigger secret than Pamuk or Gillingham on every level.

 

Marigold is simply a live reminder that Edith slept with a man outside of wedlock.

 

From a *sin* standpoint, it actually doesn't matter that Edith had a child after having sex once. She and Mary both committed the same sin - Mary with different men

[Avaleigh]

Marigold is simply a live reminder that Edith slept with a man outside of wedlock.

From a *sin* standpoint, it actually doesn't matter that Edith had a child after having sex once. She and Mary both committed the same sin - Mary with different men

I don't see the sin as being the out of wedlock sex. (Also, not saying that's what you believe.) I mean that keeping Marigold's identity from Bertie seems like a much bigger deal than Mary not mentioning that she's had sex out of wedlock with Pamuk and Gillingham. Edith would have had Marigold be apart of her life with Bertie and Bertie would have financially supported Marigold among other things. If they ever had children she'd be concealing her emotions on so many levels. The emotional baggage involving the two situations isn't even close to being comparable to me and that's even factoring in Pamuk's untimely death.

ETA

If she'd actually married Bertie without telling him IMO that would have been a huge betrayal.

Edited November 11, 2015 by Avaleigh

[DeccaMitford]

 

I sometimes feel like the idea is that it's okay for Edith to hate Mary but it isn't okay for Mary to hate Edith because Mary hae gone through life with more advantages.

 

Is this really so odd? I personally change how I judge people's behavior based on their relative power all the time. It's why when my four year old niece has a tantrum and tells her dad "you're stupid and I hate you," he doesn't let it hurt his feelings, but he'd be an abusive monster if he said the same thing to her. Edith annoys Mary, and she often does it deliberately, but Mary's general attitude towards it is only that: annoyance. Mary is cruel to Edith, both to her face and behind her back. She has more power in the relationship and always has, and I think it does make a difference. Edith's barbs always seem to come out of insecurity or resentment, while Mary's come out of contempt, or boredom, or habit, and I think a lot of people can more readily empathize with insecurity over contempt. I think a lot of people instinctively side with the underdog in any story. At least I do. And Edith is pretty unambiguously the underdog in her relationship with Mary.

In season two, Matthew half-heartedly asked Mary to be nicer to Edith, and Mary replied, with a smile, that "that's like asking the fox to spare the chicken." She's mean to Edith for fun.  She herself thinks of Edith as the victim here. She thinks of Edith as her inherently weaker prey that she has no choice but to pounce on. That's why I can't help but ask, if Mary is so bothered by Edith, and Edith's behavior, why would she want to keep Edith around? Because that's all she's managed to do.

Don't get me wrong, I think Mary is the more interesting character of the two, and part of the reason she interests me is that she's a rare female character who doesn't really care all that much about being nice, and partly relishes the fact that a lot people are afraid of her. But I'd have more respect for the show if it would, for once, follow through with Mary's complexity and show how it would ultimately operate in the real world. Because in the real world, I think most of us try to avoid people like Mary.

[ZoloftBlob]

I don't see the sin as being the out of wedlock sex. (Also, not saying that's what you believe.) I mean that keeping Marigold's identity from Bertie seems like a much bigger deal than Mary not mentioning that she's had sex out of wedlock with Pamuk and Gillingham.

 

In the grand scheme of things it is... but Mary isn't revealing it because she has *any* concern about Bertie or Marigold, she's revealing it because it means Edith was a slutty slut who sluts and it ruins Edith's reputation. Mary was not concerned that the awkwardness of Edith raising Marigold as a ward would come back to haunt anyone.

 

I personally have utterly no issue with premarital sex, or people having it, but in the 1920s, it would have ruined both women to have their mutual exploits publicized. I really can't accept that Mary was worried about Marigold's upbringing in that moment.

[skyways]

Talbot frightened her because he pierced her defences and got to know the real her

 

How did he do this? when did it happen?

 

I know what you mean about Mary. But the thing is she LIKES herself that way. It makes her feel superior which she needs to feel. I remember in season 1, episode one when they were having breakfast and I think Edith was talking about Rosamund's big house and how she's enjoying living there alone (or something). Mary made a sarcastic remark about how Rosamund shouldn't complain (as per dead husband equals enjoying wealth by yourself) and her father was shocked and told her to stop saying such mean things that people will come to believe she is truly like that. Do you remember her answer? She said, ' (that day) can't come soon enough for me'. Mary likes herself the way she is, not the opposite.

[Helena Dax]

I've never hated  Mary and I'm  not  going  to start now,  but she shouldn't have done that to Edith; it was mean and cruel. Otoh,  I hated the way everybody was telling her to marry Talbot:  her concerns about his  job were absolutely  logic  and valid. And Tom? I'm surprised Mary didn't tell him  to  go marry Talbot himself, if he's so wonderful.

 

I don't hate Edith either, but she's been the queen  of "poor me" all these years, and frankly, she isn't a saint either. She's got better this season,  though, and I want her to be happy. I'm pretty sure Bertie will be back in  the CS. (I haven't seen anything, but c'mon). 

 

Poor Thomas,  we all saw it coming, but it was sad anyway. 

 

Loved the bit about Spratt, it was great. Tbh,  I loved everything about the  episode except the Mary/Talbot stuff. 

Edited November 11, 2015 by Helena Dax

[Cherpumple]

I actually started to understand where Mary was coming from in this episode, and it's taken me eight seasons but better late than never I guess.

Mary doesn't like herself at all. For some reason best known to her, she doesn't want people to know the real Mary. She schemes and snarks as a pre-emptive attack in case people try to get to know her, and puts up fortresses of dislike so they won't.

Talbot frightened her because he pierced her defences and got to know the real her. That terrified Mary because she hates someone holding up a mirror.

I'm not that invested in Mary's character, so I'm not really interested if she and Henry make a go of it, but re-watching the last episode made some sense of the Mary situation for me, at last.

I can get on board with most of this, except the bolded part. Actually, to be more specific, I think the bolded part is what JF wanted us to think, but it never actually happened. As has been pointed out, their 'courtship' consisted of a handful of dates (mostly in groups) that felt like watching an Oscar Wilde play because they were frothy and droll and glamorous, but had zero substance. They don't really know each other at all.

[Avaleigh]

In the grand scheme of things it is... but Mary isn't revealing it because she has *any* concern about Bertie or Marigold, she's revealing it because it means Edith was a slutty slut who sluts and it ruins Edith's reputation. Mary was not concerned that the awkwardness of Edith raising Marigold as a ward would come back to haunt anyone.

 

I personally have utterly no issue with premarital sex, or people having it, but in the 1920s, it would have ruined both women to have their mutual exploits publicized. I really can't accept that Mary was worried about Marigold's upbringing in that moment.

Just to clarify, I'm definitely not claiming for a moment that Mary wins points or something for letting Bertie in on the truth. I know she doesn't care how he feels about anything and she was practically gleeful at the idea of him dumping Edith now that he's got the marquess's coronet. 

 

I also don't even think that Mary has an opinion on Edith supposedly being a slut as far as society is concerned. They're both in the same boat and I don't think that Mary is uptight anyway in that sense as Edith was at one point. I think it was all about deliberately wounding Edith. Also, do I think that Edith would wound Mary in that way if she could? I absolutely think she's capable of it but it would depend on the circumstances. No way though do I think that Edith is above deliberately sabotaging something for Mary if it were in her power to do so. 

 

I agree with your views about premarital sex and don't for a moment think that Mary was thinking about Marigold's upbringing at all. One of the worst things about Mary's betrayal of Edith is that she clearly doesn't give a damn about her niece's happiness or overall situation. Mary is obviously fond of Sybbie but I'm unclear as to what her feelings are for Marigold since the revelation. So far I don't think she seems to care about the welfare of her niece or she wouldn't have been so insensitive about the outburst. 

 

I can understand why Mary doesn't like Edith but I think it's sad and very disappointing that she can't cut her niece a break. 

Edited November 11, 2015 by Avaleigh

[shipperx]

I don't hate Edith either, but she's been the queen of "poor me" all these years, and frankly, she isn't a saint either.

Granted, she was dumped at the altar through no fault of her own and publically humiliated, was told by her father that the only reason she was given a job wasn't her comptency or talent but HIS title, had her fiancé disappear Into the ether. Discovered she was unmarried, alone, and pregnant in a time period when that sort of thing got you disowned and slut shamed for life, was immediately pushed by her nfluential relatives to give up her child, and when she found out her fiancé and the father of her child was violently murdered,it was deemed less important than her sister's haircut... 'poor me' wasn't entirely groundless.

Also, do I think that Edith would wound Mary in that way if she could? I absolutely think she's capable of it but it would depend on the circumstances. No way though do I think that Edith is above deliberately sabotaging something for Mary if it were in her power to do so.

Edith could have told Matthew that Mary lost her virginity in a one night stand before Mary told him, but never did. She could have been as insensitive about Mary's grief over Matthew as Mary was about Edith's grief. Whether it would have been successful or not, I don't know, but she could create some awkwardness by telling Talbot about Mary's sex week with Gillingham. If she had cause to seek vengeance, Mary's remarriage would be it. Yet rather than doing what Mary did to ruin Edith's engagement she said Mary looked lovely.

Edith is no saint by any means. Her mistakes are plentiful, and they always manage to bite her in the end But Mary took the cake in this one. At this point, if Edith were a real person, I would advise her to move to London permanently and limit contact with Mary to essential family occasions only. Even there keep things civil but distant. Mary clearly doesn't give the tiniest damn about Edith or Marigold. And it's best to avoid such toxic relationships.

Edited November 11, 2015 by shipperx

[SusanSunflower]

yes, though in fairness, I doubt that Mary has put 2+2 together wrt Gregson's disappearance  in Germany -- while trying to divorce his institutionalized wife and make an honest woman of  Edith even BEFORE he knew Edith had a Marigold in the oven ...He wasn't going to marry her because she got pregnant, but because he want to marry her -- Anyway, Mary probably hasn't comprehended yet that Edith was essentially "widowed" by the man she loved while pregnant with Marigold ... that she held out hope but went through her pregnancy while alternatively hoping and grieving. Did Mary figure out Switzerland or was that explained to her -- or not even mentioned because she wouldn't care ... 

 

fwiw, yes, the lack of interest and extreme sympathy for Edith in Switzerland (and after return) has always bothered me ... 

Edited November 11, 2015 by SusanSunflower

[Hecate7]

I'm not sure this is really comparable with the Marigold situation. Mary's sexual history before she met Talbot wouldn't really affect their marriage (and honestly, I don't think Mary was under any obligation to tell Matthew about Pamuk either, except she was so worried and guilty about it). It might make their relationship a little less honest and communicative, but it's not like Mary's history would have a physical embodiment in the house. Edith did have an obligation to tell Bertie the deal with Marigold because she was asking him to accept Marigold into his family while pretending that Marigold was a foundling: the situation was ongoing. (As an aside, this is also why Mr. Drewe should have told his wife the deal with Marigold from the beginning. That arrangement was always bound to be a clusterfuck, but a lot of angst could have been avoided if poor Mrs. Drewe had been given the truth about who the kid was and why they were taking her in.)

 

It absolutely wasn't Mary's place to tell Bertie about Marigold, and any attempt to give her honorable motives in doing so is pretty much bullshit, but I don't think she's hypocritical for not telling Talbot about her past. In some ways I think it's a sign of Mary's development - she's a stronger, more in control person than she was when she married Matthew.

 

All Bertie needs to know, is that Edith and Marigold are a package deal. Since she is not his child, it really doesn't make any difference whose child she is, does it? Except as it relates to Edith's earlier sex life. So yes, it's really no more his business than the Pamuk situation or Mary's fling in town with Gillingham is of Talbot's. And you'll notice that Edith made no attempt to bring any of that to Talbot's attention.

 

Either Bertie is willing to adopt a child or he isn't. If he was willing to adopt a foundling, but not willing to adopt Edith's biological child by another man, then it's really not about the child at all, but about Edith's perceived purity or lack thereof. Ironically, Edith is well ahead of Mary in the purity department, but now that she's not sixteen anymore you don't see her bothering people about it. She could have told Talbot about Mary's past. Perhaps she should have done so in retaliation, as Mary absolutely would have done to anyone who embarrassed her or interfered in her private life, if she had any dirt on them, however large or small. 

 

For Edith's marriage to fall through under these circumstances is bound to start rumors, and it's entirely possible that Bertie will explain to family members why there will be no marriage, and this WILL complicate Maritold's life in ways that being adopted did not.  

[Hecate7]

I don't see the sin as being the out of wedlock sex. (Also, not saying that's what you believe.) I mean that keeping Marigold's identity from Bertie seems like a much bigger deal than Mary not mentioning that she's had sex out of wedlock with Pamuk and Gillingham. Edith would have had Marigold be apart of her life with Bertie and Bertie would have financially supported Marigold among other things. If they ever had children she'd be concealing her emotions on so many levels. The emotional baggage involving the two situations isn't even close to being comparable to me and that's even factoring in Pamuk's untimely death.

ETA

If she'd actually married Bertie without telling him IMO that would have been a huge betrayal.

 

I disagree. Marigold already exists. There's no secret here. She is part of the deal if Bertie marries Edith. It doesn't matter who her father is or how she came to be--Edith has already adopted her and it's not negotiable and it's not really a surprise.  It's not as if they were imarried and she cuckolded him and presented him with a baby she pretended was his.

 

It's hideously unfair, because Edith got pregnant after having sex once. She wanted to marry the father and it was mutual. Mary has a child, but because she was married when she conceived it, she's marriageable. Mary could have been pregnant by Pamuk, but she wasn't. She could have gotten pregnant by Gillingham, but she didn't. So there's really no moral superiority there, but Mary gets to live and act as if there is. But since Marigold is Edith's illegitimate child by her deceased fiance, marriage is forever out of the question for Edith.

 

Really, the male reaction, and the 1920s reaction, isn't about a rich man's misgivings about supporting his rich, working fiance's adopted child. It's about finding out the bride isn't a virgin. Period.

Edited November 11, 2015 by Hecate7

[Ide]

I think Anna said it best: "She loves him but she can't control him.That's what frightens her. He's stronger than she is, really. Or as strong. And she's not used to it."

[Andorra]

I think Anna said it best: "She loves him but she can't control him.That's what frightens her. He's stronger than she is, really. Or as strong. And she's not used to it."

 

I actually thought the sentence was completely out of the blue and that we had seen no evidence whatsoever on the screen for it.

 

And I thought it funny then, that Mary only had to whistle once and the oh-so-strong and the non-controllable man crawled back to her like a dog after she had thrown him out the last time the saw each other. Yeah, that's a strong man indeed. 

 

On screen there was not the slightest evidence for anything we heard about Talbot. He was neither strong, nor clever. If he had been clever he would have been able to figure out that Mary had broken up with him because of the car racing. It wasn't that difficult to figure out when she did it after the car race, but he thought it had to be his lack of wealth and position. Clever guy indeed.

 

But we just KNOW he is eye to eye with her and strong and passionate, because Violet, Anna and Tom have told us. And since they are the most beloved characters we have to take their words for the truth.

[Cherpumple]

Does Edith actually know about Mary's dalliance with Gillingham? It was pretty hush-hush at the time (didn't only Anna know?), and I doubt Mary told her about it afterwards, even during the lame blackmail attempt by the chambermaid, so she might not even be aware of it. I don't remember.

[MissLucas]

I actually thought the sentence was completely out of the blue and that we had seen no evidence whatsoever on the screen for it.

 

And I thought it funny then, that Mary only had to whistle once and the oh-so-strong and the non-controllable man crawled back to her like a dog after she had thrown him out the last time the saw each other. Yeah, that's a strong man indeed. 

 

On screen there was not the slightest evidence for anything we heard about Talbot. He was neither strong, nor clever. If he had been clever he would have been able to figure out that Mary had broken up with him because of the car racing. It wasn't that difficult to figure out when she did it after the car race, but he thought it had to be his lack of wealth and position. Clever guy indeed.

 

But we just KNOW he is eye to eye with her and strong and passionate, because Violet, Anna and Tom have told us. And since they are the most beloved characters we have to take their words for the truth.

Anna was written completely OOC this episode. First she babbles and cackles about Mrs Patmore's problems as if she's the world's greatest gossip and then she makes a complete U-turn on her assessment of the relationship between Talbot and Lady Mary. And suddenly he's Petrucchio to her Kate - although we haven't seen anything that would even remotely justify to describe their relationship in terms of what TV tropes calls 'Belligerent Sexual Tension'. In my opinion there were hints of that in her relationship to Blake but as we all know that was never explored.

 

As for Talbot being stronger (or as strong) as Lady Mary: One scene played by Goode as if he was auditioning for 'Criminal Minds' does not make him strong(er). Nor the creepy stalker act he employed before. The trope would require him to stay away in order to enact a real hot-and-cold power-play. But of course there never was the time to build up this dynamic because the hospital plot had to be squashed in. So we ended up with 90 minutes of Crawleys & Co violating the 'show-don't-tell'-rule.

[Llywela]

On screen there was not the slightest evidence for anything we heard about Talbot. He was neither strong, nor clever. If he had been clever he would have been able to figure out that Mary had broken up with him because of the car racing. It wasn't that difficult to figure out when she did it after the car race, but he thought it had to be his lack of wealth and position. Clever guy indeed.

Didn't Talbot and Mary even have a conversation about how her husband had died in a car crash and she was twitchy about his profession as a result? When they got caught in the rain in London that time. So yes, it really shouldn't have been difficult after the accident at the race track to work out that Mary was having a big freak out about the dangers of car racing!

[DeccaMitford]

 

So we ended up with 90 minutes of Crawleys & Co violating the 'show-don't-tell'-rule.

And I think this is why a lot of Edith fans are upset right now. Certainly there's still the Christmas special and anything can happen, and on the whole I think Edith's in a pretty good place as far as it goes: she's shown a lot of strength of character in bouncing back from disappointment, she's got her awesome career, she's got her burgeoning girl squad of Laura and Audrey at the office. She'll be fine even if Bertie never comes back. But compared to Talbot, Bertie was very effectively written and played. He felt like a real person, and his relationship with Edith felt like a real one with real feelings at stake. I had a much stronger sense of what that relationship was about and what they both saw in each other.

And that relationship was (maybe temporarily) destroyed and reduced to basically a plot device to bolster up a relationship that no one likes, with a guy that we still don't know anything about. And it wasn't about Matthew Goode coming to the show too late, because again: Bertie came at the same time, and I at least feel like I have a pretty strong sense of who he is and why Edith would like him so much. So that relationship is lost, in order to gain something nobody wanted.

 

This was really so bungled on pretty much every level.

Edited November 11, 2015 by DeccaMitford

[rudystx01]

And I think this is why a lot of Edith fans are upset right now. Certainly there's still the Christmas special and anything can happen, and on the whole I think Edith's in a pretty good place as far as it goes: she's shown a lot of strength of character in bouncing back from disappointment, she's got her awesome career, she's got her burgeoning girl squad of Laura and Audrey at the office. She'll be fine even if Bertie never comes back. But compared to Talbot, Bertie was very effectively written and played. He felt like a real person, and his relationship with Edith felt like a real one with real feelings at stake. I had a much stronger sense of what that relationship was about and what they both saw in each other.

 

And that relationship was (maybe temporarily) as basically a plot device to bolster up a relationship that no one likes, with a guy that we still don't know anything about. And it wasn't about Matthew Goode coming to the show too late, because again: Bertie came at the same time, and I at least feel like I have a pretty strong sense of who he is and why Edith would like him so much. So that relationship is lost, in order to gain something nobody wanted.

 

This was really so bungled on pretty much every level.

 

And the congregations said......Amen!

Edited November 11, 2015 by rudystx01

[kpw801]

I can get on board with most of this, except the bolded part. Actually, to be more specific, I think the bolded part is what JF wanted us to think, but it never actually happened. As has been pointed out, their 'courtship' consisted of a handful of dates (mostly in groups) that felt like watching an Oscar Wilde play because they were frothy and droll and glamorous, but had zero substance. They don't really know each other at all.

Exactly.  We have seen Mary alone with Talbot once I think.  That was after the group dinner when they got caught in the rain.  Every other time it has been with Tom or his friend Charlie.  We have seen Edith interacting one on one with Bertie way more than Mary and Talbot.  I would hope sometime in the post-Downton fairy tale reality that Bertie will come around.  He had to know that Mary was being a total b/witch when she spitefully betrayed Edith.  I remember the side eye he gave her when he came up with all the details about the Downton open house.  If he doesn't come around, I think Edith will be okay in the long run.  She has a career, she won't have to be burdened with a judgmental in-law.  In a fanfiction sort of way, she and Bertie might be able to make things work out since he really only has his fussy mother to worry about and no other extended family.  I am not holding my breath for a resolution in the CS but maybe JF is planning for Edith to have a Cinderella moment at the very end.  

[shipperx]

Does Edith actually know about Mary's dalliance with Gillingham? It was pretty hush-hush at the time (didn't only Anna know?), and I doubt Mary told her about it afterwards, even during the lame blackmail attempt by the chambermaid, so she might not even be aware of it. I don't remember.

She made a sly aside about it to Mary last year which indicated that, like Tom, she had been aware of what Mary was up to.

[Free]

Because in the real world, I think most of us try to avoid people like Mary.

 

If she was treated accordingly, it would've been a lot better instead of spending most of the episode being a trainwreck and then pushed for an extremely rushed wedding at the end.

[ZoloftBlob]

So here's my deeper thoughts. I said this on tumblr as well.

 

I wanted Henry to work out when I saw him on the CS. I really did. And I was having a pretty open mind about it... but Henry ended up a bit of a one note wonder. Henry likes cars and Mary and while I get that JF probably no longer cared... its unfortunate that he put no effort into making Henry anything other than a pole for Mary to swing on.

 

So they lack chemistry, they are almost never alone, and Mary repeatedly puts him off with how she doesn't love him. There's a predictable car wreck where she has emotions and dumps him.

 

And everyone in her life pretty much tells her how stupid she is for not marrying him. She completely ruins Edith's life and in response... Edith tells her to marry Henry. Tom tells her to marry Henry. Anna tells her to marry Henry. Violet comes back from France expressly to tell Mary to marry Henry. I'm genuinely shocked they didn't whip out the Ouija board so Matthew could weigh in and of course say "Mary, marry Henry!".

 

And she goes to Matthew's grave and tells him that no matter what she does with another man, she'll always love him... At the end of the day, Mary is stuck in the life that she professed to hate in episode one, season one. She's marrying a man because her family has told her to. I don't think JF intended this to be a tragedy but at the end of the day... Mary is stuck in exactly the situation she was trying to avoid.

[Kirsty]

And it wasn't about Matthew Goode coming to the show too late, because again: Bertie came at the same time, and I at least feel like I have a pretty strong sense of who he is and why Edith would like him so much.

I've been arguing that the romance that led to Mary remarrying shouldn't have been left until the final season. Mary/Henry was super rushed and way underwritten. First kiss one week, break-up the next week, marriage the following week! But you're right; Bertie was introduced in the same episode as Henry. And I agree that the show has sold the Edith/Bertie romance. I buy it. And I've enjoyed it, including the drama in this latest episode.

 

I wonder if Edith and Mary's love stories this season were supposed to be equally good and of equal importance. If so, why did Mary's fall flat? Is it because Mary is a far more guarded person whose romances begin with a lot of performance and posturing? Or maybe that's a poor excuse for shoddy writing.

 

I think Edith's relationship was written as Edith/Bertie, while Mary's romance was written as Mary/Tom/Henry/Cars, with Henry -- as the only unknown in that foursome -- consequently not getting enough screentime or character development or scenes alone with Mary. It was very odd. It may be that Mary getting over her fear was the story, and the man involved wasn't terribly important. It certainly didn't make for a good romance.

 

And maybe Julian Fellowes was aware that Leech and Goode are good buddies in reality, so he wanted to write that into the show?

 

part of the reason she interests me is that she's a rare female character who doesn't really care all that much about being nice, and partly relishes the fact that a lot people are afraid of her. But I'd have more respect for the show if it would, for once, follow through with Mary's complexity and show how it would ultimately operate in the real world. Because in the real world, I think most of us try to avoid people like Mary.

Great post. I've been enjoying the insightful discussion here about Mary. Yeah, the show probably doesn't follow through on the consequences of her being an asshole because she's the writer's pet character. (Although I loved how honest the show was about her bullying in this episode. That breakfast scene was totally convincing. I just loved how Edith could tell by Mary's mood that she was likely to lash out at her.)

 

The only thing I would say is that a person like Mary is smart enough only to bully when it doesn't damage her reputation. Like, in that scene, Edith is her target, she doesn't give a damn what well-meaning Bertie thinks of her, and Tom already knows what she's like. She's keeping it in the family, and outside of that, as an aristocrat she can probably get away with being overbearing quite often.

Edited November 11, 2015 by Kirsty

[skyways]

And suddenly he's Petrucchio to her Kate - although we haven't seen anything that would even remotely justify to describe their relationship in terms of what TV tropes calls 'Belligerent Sexual Tension'. In my opinion there were hints of that in her relationship to Blake but as we all know that was never explored

 

 Aaargh...... don't remind me of what could have been. But honestly, the power-play thing was played well by Ian Glen/Richard Carlyle, so I'm beginning to think in this case it wasn't all the writing but the actor contributed to the 'dullness' of the storyline.

Edited November 11, 2015 by skyways

[kpw801]

So here's my deeper thoughts. I said this on tumblr as well.

 

I wanted Henry to work out when I saw him on the CS. I really did. And I was having a pretty open mind about it... but Henry ended up a bit of a one note wonder. Henry likes cars and Mary and while I get that JF probably no longer cared... its unfortunate that he put no effort into making Henry anything other than a pole for Mary to swing on.

 

So they lack chemistry, they are almost never alone, and Mary repeatedly puts him off with how she doesn't love him. There's a predictable car wreck where she has emotions and dumps him.

 

And everyone in her life pretty much tells her how stupid she is for not marrying him. She completely ruins Edith's life and in response... Edith tells her to marry Henry. Tom tells her to marry Henry. Anna tells her to marry Henry. Violet comes back from France expressly to tell Mary to marry Henry. I'm genuinely shocked they didn't whip out the Ouija board so Matthew could weigh in and of course say "Mary, marry Henry!".

 

And she goes to Matthew's grave and tells him that no matter what she does with another man, she'll always love him... At the end of the day, Mary is stuck in the life that she professed to hate in episode one, season one. She's marrying a man because her family has told her to. I don't think JF intended this to be a tragedy but at the end of the day... Mary is stuck in exactly the situation she was trying to avoid.

I'm genuinely shocked they didn't whip out the Ouija board so Matthew could weigh in and of course say "Mary, marry Henry!".

 

OMG!  That is the funniest thing!  You almost made me spit out my coffee laughing!!

[shipperx]

I had a long post about why the Mary romance fell flat involving the fact that they're somewhat repetitious : guy meets Mary, falls inexplicably madly in love with her and the story is whether or not she'll accept him, but somewhere in that I realized that's the symptom not the disease.

Fellowes wrote better for Edith/Bertie because he felt he had to convince the audience of why anyone would want her.

On the other hand, Fellowes loves Mary so much he takes it as a given that the men fall for her at the drop of a hat and thus Fellowes expends little to no energy in showing us why the characters might fit one another. It's always about whether Mary considers the man an acceptable consort--which is exactly what Fellowes wrote.

The problem may be that Fellowes loves Mary so much that he expends little effort in showing why love interest {insert number here} does. In his mind, they love her because --duh. Of course they do. She's Mary and she's awesome!

Edited November 11, 2015 by shipperx

[jah1986]

I've enjoyed reading everyone's comments on this season, especially since I've come to the conclusion that I won't be missing too much if I don't bother watching this at all when it comes to the US.  I'm so tired of the same plot being repeated season after season. Might look forward to the CS if only because I always watch series finales.

[DianeDobbler]

Mary had plenty of opportunity to mince her words or correct herself when she saw the look on Edith's face. Mary KNEW that Edith didn't tell Bertie yet, based on Edith's stunned reaction when Mary started to speak.

 

Not to mention Tom's appalled "Mary, don't." Everybody at that table save Bertie knew Mary knew what she was doing. Deliberately cruel. And let's say Bertie HAD known. Who the HELL icily makes that breakfast conversation? "So Bertie, so marvellous you're taking my sister on. Not everyone would accept a bastard child." She was vicious.

 

Obviously I have to greatly amend my ideas about where the series was headed. Fellowes knew Goode and Dockery had no chemistry, or suspected it, having seen the same signs when he threw the previous three at her. So, he used  Tom as a sort of sincere Cyrano go between. It's so perverse. Also, I totally agree Fellowes sees no reason to show us why any man would immediately fall in love with Mary.So it's true that Tom's story was sacrified because Fellowes needed him for Mary; just not in the way some of us suspected. He was a Henry stand-in, because he had rapport with Mary and Goode did not. Hell, he had rapport with Goode and Dockery did not. Goode utterly failed in the sex appeal, "strong male" department as well, so the bits about him being as strong as Mary seemed a spin on him being a horrible, scary creep. There was no actual strength there.

 

Dockery HAS become unbelievably thin, despite having always been slender. I look at her face from the scene when she first met Matthew and it's absolutely round compared to now. Even granted she was younger then, in subsequent seasons when she was absolutely wraithlike her face is still also fuller compared to now.

Edited November 11, 2015 by DianeDobbler

[skyways]

Matthew was developed. Although I agree that the 'balance' of relationship dynamic is often missing when it came to Mary. It always has to be (from the writing standpoint) how the men fit with her ( I know it's her story) not how she fits with them or how they fit together ( the writing works best this way). I will also add like Kirsty said above, that it was more like Mary/Matthew/getting over his death by cars. Goode was the plot-device.

 

I remember reading somewhere in a Naeme interview on why he didn't particularly like casting well-known actors (even though they've had some well-known actors popular in Britain). He said they tend to 'over-balance' the dynamic with the rest of the cast. I thought I understood what he was trying to say. What do you think happened with this casting???

Edited November 11, 2015 by skyways

[MissLucas]

Mary - or rather the blueprint of Mary - is an absolutely fascinating and intriguing character. I've known and befriended women of that mold though obviously more human. Beautiful, strong-willed and with the tact of a rhino on a rampage - yet incredibly loyal to the few folks they consider friends. But they never reached Mary's level of venom nor were they universally admired nor did any man they met fall head-over-heels in love with them (quite the contrary).

 

Fellows pushed what could have been an interesting take on the ice-queen type into caricature territory, not allowing the character to suffer any -real- consequences of her actions and to grow to a more mature and slightly more likable version of herself. I've never liked Lady Mary but I'm appalled (and I don't use that word lightly) at the character assassination she suffered at the hands of her creator. Hers is a cautionary tale for any writers to not get blinded by love for their creations.