S04.E14: Code Of Silence

[ah-maa-zing]

Jumping into the fray here, my personal reaction to this episode was: "Cute, with a side of meh." I liked the majority of it, it was serviceable, no more shaky cam (thank you, Arrow gods), FB!Oliver finally killed someone "just 'cause", the Olicity stuff was adorable and I really, really enjoyed EBR's acting choices in that final scene with Curtis. 

 

The stunts were better than last time (Brotherhood) mainly because I felt they weren't just throwing in stunts for the sake of showing stunts (I really disliked that long corridor fight in 4x07) -- though I will say that Green Arrow and co. trailing Ruve Adams/Darhk's car in full costume ON AN EMPTY ROAD and then being surprised she somehow found out they were chasing her was...just...no. 

 

The lie, ah the lie. Largely speaking, my general reaction at this point is: just rip the damn band aid off. I don't know if it's a casualty of being online/an active participant of fandom, but the endless discussion/speculation/rage of last few weeks/months has certainly contributed to the sense of ennui I feel towards this storyline. I've long past moved on from rage and am now impatiently tapping my foot waiting for the fallout. In fact, as soon as this episode ended I was looking around wondering if I could just get an early screener of 4x15 and watch it straight away (I miss the days of marathoning this show...). 

 

No defence of the lie, and Oliver absolutely deserves to be raked over the coals for it (which he will be, as he always is, which may be part of the reason why I can't quite hate him entirely), but I do feel that the fallout may not play out in exactly the way that (some) fans have speculated. Time will tell, I guess.

 

To end I would concur that Guggie is a hack, and I hope that with the resolution of this bullcrap SL we may never have to have a leftover S2 plot that makes no sense in current canon grace our screens again. :)

 

Also -- why did they CGI the freaking glitter?! According to Bamford, that was a one-take shot. Surely the whole (okay, a lot of the) point of the scene was to have Stephen/Oliver actually covered in the stuff...? Maybe that's just me :)

[hogwash]

I can't get over Oliver literally asking another character why he is still lying to Felicity and the best response they could come up with is the utter nonsense that came out of Thea's mouth. "That's exactly what I need to hear." Are you joking?? Not to mention Thea's unique perspective on the whole thing being ignored because bringing up her paternity means that Oliver would have to mention Malcolm knowing about William which destroys Thea's entire ~safety~ argument. 

 

All this just to breakup Oliver and Felicity??? I don't understand.

[lemotomato]

Also -- why did they CGI the freaking glitter?! According to Bamford, that was a one-take shot. Surely the whole (okay, a lot of the) point of the scene was to have Stephen/Oliver actually covered in the stuff...? Maybe that's just me :)

I thought it was CG too, but Bamford said it was real glitter on Twitter: https://twitter.com/jamesbamford/status/700048575003283456

[SonofaBiscuit]

I just want the lie to go away forever and ever, never to be spoken of again.  Ugh, I'm so tired of everything about it, and I know it'll be rearing it's ugly head big time next week, but damn!  It's so exhausting.  Please, send MG to LoT full-time where he can can destroy characters and entire seasons by focusing only on prearranged plot points.  

 

I'm fairly certain that I've started blacking out during the episodes.  I completely missed the glitter bomb thing (I missed the first ten minutes of the episode, so maybe it occurred there), and I didn't even realize that a debate actually happened.  I must have powered down Laurel style when some of this stuff was happening, I guess.

[ah-maa-zing]

I thought it was CG too, but Bamford said it was real glitter on Twitter: https://twitter.com/jamesbamford/status/700048575003283456

 

Ugh. In that case, I call even more bull. How did none of that land on Stephen's face/shoulders?! (Clearly I have a lot of feelings on this...)

 

I just want the lie to go away forever and ever, never to be spoken of again.  Ugh, I'm so tired of everything about it, and I know it'll be rearing it's ugly head big time next week, but damn!  It's so exhausting.  Please, send MG to LoT full-time where he can can destroy characters and entire seasons by focusing only on prearranged plot points.  

 

I'm fairly certain that I've started blacking out during the episodes.  I completely missed the glitter bomb thing (I missed the first ten minutes of the episode, so maybe it occurred there), and I didn't even realize that a debate actually happened.  I must have powered down Laurel style when some of this stuff was happening, I guess.

 

I completely missed first time around that Lyla was now head of ARGUS. 

 

In my defence, they did bury it in dialogue... 

 

Also, yes. The glitter bomb happened in the first scene. 

Edited February 18, 2016 by ah-maa-zing

[catrox14]

Heh, I rewatched the scene with Oliver telling Thea just to check my perception. I think Oliver is seething with barely contained anger and bitterness and really I don't think the scene warranted anger on any level  when it's Thea supporting Oliver's choices. I mean shouldn't Oliver be kind of relieved?  But I don't get relief out of it at all.

 

It seems like Stephen can barely spit out the stupid lines confirming the stupidity of the whole thing. 

 

Poor Stephen. I don't think this is what he had in mind when he pitched Oliver having a kid. 

Edited February 18, 2016 by catrox14

[ComicFan777]

It's sad that not even Wendy Mericle could salvage this episode.  With her way of writing 4x9, it made me forget the awful crossover and I just got lost in the epicness of olicity.  This episode was simply SECRETS & LIES painted everywhere on top of the cuteness.  It seemed like it was literally everywhere and the best she could do was have Thea justify it all as the cherry on top.       

Edited February 18, 2016 by ComicFan777

[bijoux]

Heh, I rewatched the scene with Oliver telling Thea just to check my perception. I think Oliver is seething with barely contained anger and bitterness and really I don't think the scene warranted anger on any level  when it's Thea supporting Oliver's choices. I mean shouldn't Oliver be kind of relieved?  But I don't get relief out of it at all.

 

It seems like Stephen can barely spit out the stupid lines confirming the stupidity of the whole thing. 

 

Poor Stephen. I don't think this is what he had in mind when he pitched Oliver having a kid. 

 

I don't think it is either, but he shot himself in the foot. You are not on Parenthood, Steve. Wake up an smell the coffee.

I am looking forward to his post-season interviews when this will be done with, though.

[Lady Calypso]

Heh, I rewatched the scene with Oliver telling Thea just to check my perception. I think Oliver is seething with barely contained anger and bitterness and really I don't think the scene warranted anger on any level  when it's Thea supporting Oliver's choices. I mean shouldn't Oliver be kind of relieved?  But I don't get relief out of it at all.

 

It seems like Stephen can barely spit out the stupid lines confirming the stupidity of the whole thing. 

 

Poor Stephen. I don't think this is what he had in mind when he pitched Oliver having a kid. 

 

Oh, poor Stephen. The first person to get affected by this dumbass storyline. I feel bad for the guy. He has to go through this storyline with clenched teeth. And we all know SA is not a great liar!

 

 

Oh, I found this gem and I have to share:

 

I don't know when exactly this was, but he can't even hide his shipper smile. Think of this as a new, bonus, 'lying' Stephen Amell gif.

[wonderwall]

Ugh. In that case, I call even more bull. How did none of that land on Stephen's face/shoulders?! (Clearly I have a lot of feelings on this...)

 

 

I completely missed first time around that Lyla was now head of ARGUS. 

 

In my defence, they did bury it in dialogue... 

 

Also, yes. The glitter bomb happened in the first scene. 

 

Greatest injustice of the season: No glitter was visible on Oliver's face/shoulders after he got glitter bombed. 

 

I wish ;)

[catrox14]

I don't think it is either, but he shot himself in the foot. You are not on Parenthood, Steve. Wake up an smell the coffee.

I am looking forward to his post-season interviews when this will be done with, though.

 

 

No it's not Parenthood. But they could have written it in a reasonably acceptable way that doesn't destroy Oliver's progress or they could have just told Stephen...sorry we can't do that.  I mean it's not like he's going to quit the show over it.

[thegirlsleuth]

Heh, I rewatched the scene with Oliver telling Thea just to check my perception. I think Oliver is seething with barely contained anger and bitterness and really I don't think the scene warranted anger on any level  when it's Thea supporting Oliver's choices. I mean shouldn't Oliver be kind of relieved?  But I don't get relief out of it at all.

 

It seems like Stephen can barely spit out the stupid lines confirming the stupidity of the whole thing. 

 

Poor Stephen. I don't think this is what he had in mind when he pitched Oliver having a kid. 

I think Stephen Amell can be a remarkably nuanced actor who can give really moving performances.  I also think he can be a bit of a stubborn ass who when he doesn't personally like a storyline will give a borderline flatline performance.  I think he's doing it with some of the babymama lie stuff and sort of overselling the loving Olicity stuff to counterbalance it.  I am suspecting he doesn't like the Island storyline, or at least the romance, because he's going completely flat in a way that goes beyond him turning into a cold-blooded killer in the story.  This is just my theory--for all I know he's a method actor.

 

I was also convinced that they CGI'ed that glitter because he should have been completely covered.  I have rarely missed Moira as much as when I picture her response to the glitter bomb.

[ah-maa-zing]

Lady Calypso - that second GIF is from the press roundtable at the SDCC 2014. Pre-season 3. The day Stephen went in and basically declared Olicity endgame (or so I choose to believe). 

 

wonderwall - I maintain that the biggest logical inconsistency in that episode was the lack of glitter. Forget Thea's OOC speech which can be handwaved/rationalised. No excuses for no glitter :-P

 

I've often thought that, for a good actor, SA is often a terrible actor - in that, he can never quite hide his distaste for certain storylines. Nor does he try to. It's part of his charm. 

 

thegirlsleuth - I missed Moira most when Donna was talking about playing Pin the Junk on the Hunk. I can just imagine her face...

Edited February 18, 2016 by ah-maa-zing

[Midnight Lullaby]

Oh, poor Stephen. The first person to get affected by this dumbass storyline. I feel bad for the guy. He has to go through this storyline with clenched teeth. And we all know SA is not a great liar!

 

 

Oh, I found this gem and I have to share:

 

I don't know when exactly this was, but he can't even hide his shipper smile. Think of this as a new, bonus, 'lying' Stephen Amell gif.

They were asking him about Oliver's relationships with Felicity, LL and SL and the reporter asked if Felicity was the long game in all of this. It was at SDCC 2014..

Anyway Stephen should know to be careful what you wish for with Arrow by now!

[bijoux]

No it's not Parenthood. But they could have written it in a reasonably acceptable way that doesn't destroy Oliver's progress or they could have just told Stephen...sorry we can't do that.  I mean it's not like he's going to quit the show over it.

 

Sure they could have, I just think they didn't want to. Nothing that Guggenheim has said so far indicates that he thinks this isn't less than awesome. So why would they tell Stephen he's not getting what he wants. When in their minds he's actually getting so much more!

[Delphi]

http://itberice.tumblr.com/post/139519444558/what-do-you-think

I wish I could imbed on my mobile, but this scene was probably my favorite. Emily's delivery was fantastic

[dtissagirl]

I bet Steve imagined a storyline in which Oliver discovers he has a kid, and then it's a rom-com O/F lying to a kid about their secret lives through their teeth, while the kid keeps trying to figure out what the grown ups are hiding from him. 

 

You know, he basically wanted that Dawson's Creek storyline when Pacey babysat Jonathan Lipnicki for like half a season.

 

Instead he got THIS.

[bijoux]

I bet Steve imagined a storyline in which Oliver discovers he has a kid, and then it's a rom-com O/F lying to a kid about their secret lives through their teeth, while the kid keeps trying to figure out what the grown ups are hiding from him. 

 

You know, he basically wanted that Dawson's Creek storyline when Pacey babysat Jonathan Lipnicki for like half a season.

 

Instead he got THIS.

 

Snicker. My assumption is he wanted things to get emotional all around and to deal with the fall out. It's not like he got that either. He got four episodes of amnesia and then a sudden guilt trip that was swiftly dealt with.

[catrox14]

Sure they could have, I just think they didn't want to. Nothing that Guggenheim has said so far indicates that he thinks this isn't less than awesome. So why would they tell Stephen he's not getting what he wants. When in their minds he's actually getting so much more!

 

I'm sorry. I'm not following.  I'm just saying that just because Stephen pitched an idea doesn't mean they had to do it they way the did it. 

[bijoux]

I agree that they didn't have to do it this way, I just believe that they honestly, if erroneously in my opinion, believe the way they are doing it is the best.

It's not that I see the story as good. I don't because I don't even see it as a story at all. It's that I believe the writers think it's good.

[dtissagirl]

Snicker. My assumption is he wanted things to get emotional all around and to deal with the fall out. It's not like he got that either. He got four episodes of amnesia and then a sudden guilt trip that was swiftly dealt with.

 

Yeah, I figured he wanted a storyline about parenting. Which would involve the people in his life interacting with the kid he would be parenting, because that's how the audience would connect to Oliver as a father, and to the kid as a full fledged character.

 

But nothing whatsoever in the story we're watching is about parenting.

[ah-maa-zing]

I agree that they didn't have to do it this way, I just believe that they honestly, if erroneously in my opinion, believe the way they are doing it is the best.

It's not that I see the story as good. I don't because I don't even see it as a story at all. It's that I believe the writers think it's good.

 

This is the same guy who thought Ray Palmer was the star of his own rom-com and anyone who didn't see him as the dashing hero come to sweep the damsel off her feet was wearing their shipper glasses too tight. 

 

I am general okay with MG, but I never quite forgave him for this. His own lens for what is and isn't a good story is cloudy with a definite chance of rain. See: Sara's unnecessary death, see Ray Palmer, see: Nyssa/Oliver "marriage", see: majority season 3. No wonder he thinks this baby mama drama is a good storyline (and interestingly, of the EPs he's the only one defending it...)

[lemotomato]

Yeah, I figured he wanted a storyline about parenting. Which would involve the people in his life interacting with the kid he would be parenting, because that's how the audience would connect to Oliver as a father, and to the kid as a full fledged character.

But nothing whatsoever in the story we're watching is about parenting.

Nothing about parenting, and it needlessly blows up a relationship that he's said that he (and EBR) feels protective about.

[apinknightmare]

But nothing whatsoever in the story we're watching is about parenting.

 

It's a pretty good lesson in what not to do though!

[quarks]

Hello, Arrow's pretty much annual mid season slump and questionable February sweeps episode! I wondered where you were!  Remember back in the day when your February episode included the bad guys counting just how many arrows Oliver keeps in his quiver, Moira shooting her own son, and Felicity getting introduced to Team Arrow? Me too. Me too.

 

Not to say that this episode didn't have any good points. 

 

Good things:

 

1. Oliver. Glitter bombed. I need say no more. Also, pink envelopes.

 

2. Tomas' hat! Perfect for an evil guy! Sorry you weren't with us for long, Tomas! Your clothing boded so well!

 

3. Slade Wilson, Arrow party planner. Bring on the fanfic, everyone. I need this.

 

4. Oliver's huge motorcycle leap, sailing over everything!  Ok, yes, it was slightly out of place for what I thought was supposed to be a stealthy attempt to follow someone but I love the motorcycle stunts so I'm going to let that go.

 

5. I'll go ahead and say it: I really did like the stunt sequence with Quentin and Laurel in the collapsing building. Not Quentin having to be dumbed down to get him into that situation, or Laurel needing to be told to run, but the sequence. 

 

6. At least someone on this show got around to telling the truth, if belatedly. Good for you, Quentin.

 

7. LYLA IS THE HEAD OF ARGUS YAY!

 

8. Anvilling Mister Terrific reference, but I'll take it.

 

9. Damien Dahrk: Arrow's slickest Big Bad ever. And now adding Malcolm to his board of directors. I love this.

 

10. Thea's moment with the fire alarm. Sometimes, yes, Team Arrow and specifically Felicity, simplicity is better! I laughed.

 

11. And as always, I must applaud Arrow's willingness to call out its questionable logic in the very same episode pushing that logic:

 

Samantha: Don't tell anyone! William must be kept safe!

 

Thea: Don't tell anyone! William must be kept safe!

 

Damien: Welcome to my house, kid! It might be safe! 

 

Questionable things:

 

1. "This is really very simple. Either you respect me enough to tell me the truth, or you don't. Clearly you don't." THE ANVILS ARE SHATTERING MY HEAD, ARROW.

 

2. I don't think this was the intent of the episode, but I was left convinced that William is in much better hands with Damien.

 

3. Was there any reason to think that Oliver Queen would be able to out-debate Ruve? She seemed polished and competent, and the insistence by the reporters/pundits that Oliver had won the debate seemed a little, I don't know, too easy? The pundits haven't been able to agree on the winners of any of the Republican/Democratic debates so far, including the Democratic ones which have basically focused on just two candidates. I'd expect at least one candidate to say that Ruve won - especially since that would up the stakes for this mayoral race and add tension to an episode that really needed it.

 

4. And on a related note, just how many pundits does Star City have? Surely only the major newspaper and maybe the alternative newspaper? The city's not that big. It can't be. Not only does the script keep telling us that, but it's very clear that Star City only has about two overpasses.

 

5. I realize many fans aren't fond of Laurel, and I guess it's sorta awkward to invite the ex girlfriend over to the engagement party, but given that you proposed to the new girlfriend right in front of Laurel, you could have invited her to the party, Oliver. Especially since, for once, Laurel might actually have been useful in smoothing over some awkward social moments!

 

6. Just how many slow cookers do you think Oliver needs, Laura Hoffman? And how desperately sad is your life that you would make that drive just for the engagement party, not the wedding?

 

7. Also, if a neighbor who's only known them for less than a year made it to the party, where is Team Flash? About half the time they're in the same soundstage anyway! Just walk over, guys!

 

8. If they can spend that much money on an engagement party, why haven't they installed some sort of stair lift so that I don't spend my time wondering if Donna had to carry Felicity up all those stairs, and if so, why they didn't just have that conversation in the main living area?

 

9. Cute callback to the bullet holed laptop in the first season, immediately followed by someone other than Felicity finding those blueprints. Oh, Arrow. I know, I know, it was done for Dramaz, but still.

 

10. I'm genuinely surprised by how many people bothered to show up for a mayoral debate in a city that, according to the script, keeps losing population.  And in a city where you can find yourself in the middle of a street battle at any point. Why not just stay at home and watch this on C-Span?

 

11. And the biggie: if Damien can kill someone in Spain through an internet connection/screen while he's in Star City, why can't he just kill Oliver Queen while he's on a televised interview?

 

I'm honestly asking. Can Damien only kill people over a two way connection like Skype? This viewer wants to know!

[quarks]

Bad things:

 

1. Minor point, but how did Homeland Security flag an uncashed check? A cashed one, sure, but Samantha has the check in her house, so I'm not sure how Homeland Security saw it. An entry in Moira's check ledger that caused a discrepancy in the totals, sure, but the picture of the actual check, maybe not?

 

2. When the flashbacks said they'd be digging, I didn't think they'd be digging up the prison. This seems terribly shortsighted – what if all the slaves run out through the new prison hole? And is anyone still growing and harvesting the drugs? Does anyone in the flashbacks remember the drugs or is the magic rock supposed to be a drug?

 

3. Why is Poppy defending Oliver? Either this has not been explained (problem) or I completely missed/forgot something in the flashbacks (bigger problem.) And am I misremembering, or wasn't she recently telling him not to kill? Why is she on the killing bandwagon? Where is this you must become a monster to fight a monster coming from? I'd buy it from Amanda Walker or Reiter or Conklin or Tatsu, but it feels unearned here. It certainly isn't helping me warm to this character.

 

4. And Arrow, have you forgotten that Oliver's killed a lot of people in the flashbacks already, not just the Hong Kong guy?  Did Fyers' death mean nothing to you at all?

 

4. Um, Reiter, is getting eaten by a shark and finding a magic rock really enough proof that the gods like someone? Maybe the magic rock part, but not the shark.  Seriously, I think you'd be better off just saying, "Hey, the show we're both on has you returning to Starling City in a couple years, a magic that is keeping you alive. So go bang the Poppy chick so the CW gets its sex scene, and in the meantime, we'll all pretend that this rock is sorta interesting even though it isn't."

 

5. Arrow, it would be a lot harder to tell that you are outside the same theatre that Team Flash likes to visit if you digitally removed that glaring McDonald's sign. Which brings me to:

 

6. Seven bad greenscreen shots in one episode, five of which were more noticeable because of incorrect lighting during filming. I realize that it didn't help that I've just had a discussion about Disney's Hyperion software and light rendering, which made me notice it more, but still, I think this is a new record, Arrow, as well as a sign that if you're going to be using this many digital shots - which is understandable - you might need to give your digital team more time to compensate for the original lighting problems. And then they can remove the McDonald's stuff.

 

7. We've discussed here the issue of Arrow's cast size, with the consensus emerging that as it is, Arrow often struggles to give adequate screen/story time to the existing characters (another reason to ditch the flashbacks, but moving on), which seems like a fair criticism. At the same time, the limited cast size creates major problems as with this episode, where Oliver needed to discuss the issue of his son for plot reasons - that is, to remind viewers that the son exists, to set up the kidnapping twist, and to set up both the breakup and the forgiveness. The problem is, thanks to the limited cast size, unless Oliver heads over to Flash, he has a very limited number of people he can discuss this with, and an even more limited number of people who would agree that he shouldn't tell Felicity.  He just cut off Malcolm's hand; Diggle and Lyla would probably argue for telling Felicity; Alex and Curtis aren't aware of the Green Arrow side of this; and Quentin just decided to tell Donna the truth, mostly.

 

That left Laurel and Thea as the only options. Laurel is a problem because she was the one cheated on, plus, although she's a terrible lawyer, I think she'd at least have the skill to remind Oliver that he has legal rights here. So that left Thea. Which brings me to --

 

8. Thea. The first problem here, Arrow, is that Thea spent most of the first and third seasons arguing against keeping secrets, regardless of whether or not this helped to keep her safe, so having her argue for keeping the secret felt off.  Yes, Arrow did sorta set this up when Thea wasn't entirely truthful about the Lazarus Pit trip earlier this season, but that wasn't enough of a setup. The second problem, Arrow, is that assuming Thea really does want to keep William safe - and I assume she does - then the correct response from her here should have been, "Ok, if your campaign people, Homeland Security, and I could all find out this stuff, what's to keep H.I.V.E. from finding out this stuff? Have you told Team Flash to keep an eye out for this poor kid?" 

 

I mean, it was great that Arrow immediately showed just how full of crap this "I'm lying to keep the kid safe! Samantha's totally justified here! She needs to keep the kid safe!" thing is, but in the process, it made Thea (and Oliver) look like complete idiots.  Coming right after an episode where Thea didn't get to cure her own bloodlust just made it worse for me. I like Thea. Do better by her, writers.

 

In the meantime, I think it's important to note that this would not have come up if Arrow did have someone else that Oliver could talk to. If any moment really called for a Flash crossover, this was it - the Flash characters all know who Oliver is, and Barry is friends with Felicity and Oliver and already knows part of what's going on. And Barry makes so many bad decisions in the name of protecting people that Thea's speech probably would have sounded ok coming from him. As it was, it sounded like a quick last minute insertion from the Arrow writers to deflect fan criticism of this storyline; Willa Holland did her best to sell it, but it didn't quite work. Because although she was the only character on Arrow able to have this conversation, she was the wrong character for it.  It might even have worked better coming from Alex.

 

9. Of course the overall problem was that Arrow was trying to do two things at once: give us a justification for Oliver's lie, while also showing us that those justifications are wrong. Arrow's pulled that off before, of course, and I like that Arrow continues to question its heroes and ask questions (LOOKING RIGHT AT YOU, FLASH) but for whatever reason, it didn't quite seem to work in this episode.

 

10. Yeah, let's continue to make Samantha look horrible by demonstrating that she massively failed to teach William the basic "Don't go off with strangers even if they are as well dressed as Damien Darhk" lesson. If Samantha isn't in that grave, it's going to take a lot of work for Arrow to rebuild this character. And although Arrow has rebuilt characters before (hi Roy, and Ray and Laurel for some people) they haven't with others (Poppy, Ra's, Amanda Waller and the DJ). So I'm not optimistic here.

 

11. Yes, I know that Felicity, as a vigilante, is going to have a different approach to keeping secrets than, say, I would, and I realize this was setup for an Oliver/Felicity dialogue down the road. And I realize that Felicity didn't tell Oliver that she was helping out Team Arrow, and didn't tell Oliver that Ray was building the supersuit last year.  With all that said, not fond of Felicity telling her mother, who went through a lot of crap with her ex, that Quentin's lies are ok because he really cares about her. Not a great thing to say to Donna.

 

11. Quentin, Donna, WHY ARE YOU HAVING THIS CONVERSATION ABOUT H.I.V.E. IN A PARTY FILLED WITH PEOPLE?

 

12. Disappointing waste of Rachel Luttrell.

 

And now, Laurel:

 

That's right, everyone! Laurel was in this episode, even though it was easy to forget since, as so often, she had very little to do with anything happening in it and was left out of many of the major moments, hilarious given that, of all the characters on Arrow, she arguably has more right than anyone to get ticked over this Samantha plot. It was nice of Arrow to finally give her a moment of spotting something useful (the blueprints on the laptop.) And rather less nice to let one of the characters most harmed by all the ongoing secret keeping in this show to not get to say a word about it.  I realize why Arrow couldn't drag her into the William/Samantha pile of lies, but she easily could have talked to Quentin about the lies he was telling Donna, instead of blah blah H.I.V.E. is after you here's some coffee.

 

It's yet another example of how Arrow continues to waste Laurel's story potential, and it's particularly glaring given the other point made above - Arrow's limited cast.  In the first season, Quentin at least had his partner and boss and (briefly) McKenna to talk to; in the second season he had Sara and (briefly) his wife to talk to. Even in the first half of this season, he had Damien and the cop that he keeps yelling orders to.  Right now, he doesn't have that many characters that he can talk to, and yet Arrow ignored the obvious choice. Laurel was also noticeably absent in scenes that she could reasonably have been present for - on the stage for the Mayoral debate. I was expecting some sort of line about how Team Arrow wanted to keep Ruve from knowing just who is supporting Oliver (although, come to think of it, that doesn't make any sense since everyone seems to know that Oliver and Laurel are friends), or, failing that, another nod to the "having Laurel stand next to you just brings up your terrible past," Oliver, but nothing.

 

Plus, of course, this being Laurel, the usual litany of fail, even in an episode that for once showed her using common sense and recognizing that something was off with that 602 call.

 

Alas, that moment didn't last.

 

Number of times Laurel fails as an attorney: Quentin, openly stating that the DA's department doesn't work with the police that often, like, no wonder Star City needs vigilantes, but surely, Laurel, there's other ways to ensure that you get to keep dressing up in leather with buckles, if you know what I mean, and I think you do, 2) coming over to the police station and yet, failing to discuss any cases, instead openly talking about H.I.V.E. and Quentin's involvement in it RIGHT IN FRONT OF POLICE OFFICERS WHO CAN HEAR THIS AND FIGURE OUT THAT THEIR BOSS WAS WORKING FOR AN EVIL ORGANIZATION thanks Laurel. You're an ATTORNEY. You should know better! Quentin doing this later in the episode doesn't make that any better.  Sure, some of this was Arrow's limited sets again - the police station set really doesn't have that many places for private conversations, and for some reason Bamford wanted tracking shots even though that scene didn't need it, but, still.

 

Number of times Laurel fails as a vigilante, six, but one is so awful I probably should count it six times on its own: 1) Black Canary, a bit of advice: when attempting to tail someone while trying not to be noticed, it helps NOT TO STAND RIGHT IN FRONT OF A BIG BRIGHT LIGHT SO EVERYONE CAN SEE YOU. You were more noticeable than the McDonald's sign. Seriously, WHAT WAS THAT? 2) Despite STANDING RIGHT IN FRONT OF THE BIG BRIGHT LIGHT, completely failing to notice that H.I.V.E. was noticing Team Arrow stalking Ruve, like, YOU HAD ONE JOB, LAUREL. WATCH FOR H.I.V.E. THAT WAS IT. 3) Needing Quentin to tell her to run away from a collapsing building like MOST PEOPLE DON'T NEED TO BE TOLD THAT, LAUREL, 4) failing to save the laptop from a nailgun, 5) needing Thea to dismantle the collapsing building things with arrows since she couldn't, 6) needing Thea to save her twice in one episode.

 

Number of times Laurel fails as a human being, 1, inviting herself along on her father's date with Donna, like, I get wanting to know Donna better, Laurel, but maybe either wait for an invitation or, failing that, ask Felicity to bring Donna over for lunch and dinner, which would be a nice gesture and also give us a still rare on Arrow moment of female friendship, 2, leaping right into Felicity's little romantic musings about broken laptops with that comment, though to be fair, that was an awkward situation for her.

 

At least it's shorter than other lists this season! Let's all focus on the bright side.

[lemotomato]

Since Laurel standing on the marquee keeps getting brought up, didn't the BTS pics of filming show KC up there with her stunt double? Why did her double have to be there if there weren't any, you know, stunts?

[Starfish35]

Excellent question.

[apinknightmare]

Since Laurel standing on the marquee keeps getting brought up, didn't the BTS pics of filming show KC up there with her stunt double? Why did her double have to be there if there weren't any, you know, stunts?

 

Maybe, like a lot of Laurel's stuff, a stunt got cut for time? 

[Chaser]

Does anyone else read the episode title and suddenly have The Sound of Silence playing in their head?

 

Disturbed does a fantastic hard rock cover (sounds crazy, but it's so good) and now I just picture Oliver singing it in his manpain glory.

[dtissagirl]

That's how Mrs DD greats DD every night. Hello Darhkness, my old friend.

[kismet]

Here goes my post~ no influence from reading (although look fwd to reading the posts). After a few technical difficulties my show finally loaded and I was underwhelmed.

 

It was just an ok 45min. So glad, I didn't have to sit through a real debate (there are enough of those irl). Loved that the buildings are now attacking, guess we run out of stunts. Although it did put me on the look out for all of the falling anvils. Man, were they hitting those pretty hard tonight.

 

There was nothing surprising about the episode, except FS Star Labs sweatshirt wardrobe change. Why the shout out to SL? TQ being the one to find out made sense, although the twist on her being ok with the secret keeping was a little huh? But then I remembered that so long as people aren't keeping secrets from her about her father, she is generally ok with secrets (must be a Queen DNA thing).

 

Other than that it was predictable. DS/QL have a break, Curtis designs an implantable chip, Neighbor is gonna buy a slow cooker & the Queen Siblings for as well as they can lie & keep secrets - they are HORRIBLE at coming up with excuses. It's really a dichotomy I would love to explore at a latter date.

[kismet]

So, 3 people know about the kid now. What's the point of keeping it from Felicity? 

I'm assuming by 5 pages in, someone let you know it's for plot? :)

[kismet]

It was more than a little painful with BC standing on the marquee.  There were people just across the street.  There is no way that they didn't see her.  I'd hope that Ruve' had good enough security to have noticed as well. 

Although it did lead to LL/BC's meta comment for the set/scouting dept. "I've run out of rooftops"... trust me we know Arrow :)

[Starfish35]

I didn't hate it, although that might just be due to having read this thread beforehand and thus having a case of severely lowered expectations.

-The directing didn't have as much shaky cam this time, which was good, but.....please excuse the non-professional here...but I thought the point of shooting fight scenes was to make them look real, instead of exposing how extremely choreographed they are.

- I have to admit, I might not have thought of the issue with Laurel standing in front of the big lit up sign if it hadn't been for this thread, but wow, least stealthy trailing operation ever. When Felicity said it was "textbook", I was like "textbook what? Textbook for what not to do?"

- If Oliver is trying to give away that he is the Green Arrow, or at least in pretty close contact with him, he's doing a great job.

- I do wish we could have seen at least a small portion of the debate. I was kind of looking forward to that.

- I'm assuming Oliver won because Ruve didn't prepare due to thinking she wouldn't have to have the debate.

- Some of the dialogue throughout was just really bad. Really stilted/clumsy.

- I love Donna, but some of her lines this time did make me cringe. Particularly "pin the junk on the hunk." Ugh. Really?

- on the other hand, I do kind of love how she can turn on a dime. When she gets serious, the whole cooing ditzy Vegas girl thing just vanishes. It's kind of awesome.

- show, you have cheated me by not giving me any Laurel/Donna scenes. Likewise, any scenes of Laurel and Felicity reacting to the fact that their parents are dating. One of the few times I actually want Laurel scenes, and you refuse to give them to me.

- Laurel was fine this episode - no particular complaints. But she wasn't used much. She had some good scenes with her dad. And yeah, it seemed weird that she wasn't at the engagement party.

- yeah, they're back to throwing death anvils for Lance.

- I loved Felicity's hair at the engagement party, and Thea's outfit at the debate.

And now the two big things.

Here's the thing. I'm going to be honest here. I'm not an Olicity shipper, so the lie doesn't really bother me that much from the aspect of their relationship, because candidly, while I don't have a problem with their relationship, I also have no emotional investment in it. What does bother me about it is the utter contrived-ness of it. There just isn't any way for me to make it make sense from an in-show in-character perspective, so it forces me to see it all from an out-of-show "this is happening for plot" perspective. And that really annoys me. There's few things that irritate me more than characters coming down with intense cases of PIS (plot-induced stupidity).

Case in point - poor Thea. She opened her mouth and Marc Guggenheim jumped out. That scene was so very very stupid, but I can't blame Thea for it anymore than I can blame Felicity for her "light" speech to Laurel last year. Both cases are so obviously the writers using the characters as mouthpieces to defend their rationale for doing what they're doing. But the rationale they are using is exceedingly stupid. Even if we were to say that Oliver had a legitimate reason to keep quiet about his son (and I'm not saying that - just using it as a starting point for argument), that reason went out the window when people started finding out anyway. It's beyond absurd that Barry can know, and Malcolm can know, and Thea can know, but no, Felicity can absolutely not know, because that keeps William safe. I mean.....huh?

Speaking of Malcolm! Here is the other exceedingly stupid portion of the episode.

Here Oliver finds out last week that Malcolm knows he has a son, and knows that Malcolm has vowed to destroy Oliver's life, yet it never occurs to anyone that they might want to keep tabs on this guy? I thought the penny might have dropped in that scene where Felicity is talking about the cell phones signals being like the ones from the HIVE cell phone that Malcolm gave them, but noooooo. I mean, is Oliver just taking it for granted that Malcolm's going to go away and pop up at a more convenient time? Does it really never occur to him, to any of them, what Malcolm might do with all the information he has on all of them, now that he's royally pissed off and out for blood?

Apparently not. *facepalm*

[kismet]

Does anyone else read the episode title and suddenly have The Sound of Silence playing in their head?

 

Disturbed does a fantastic hard rock cover (sounds crazy, but it's so good) and now I just picture Oliver singing it in his manpain glory.

It's been in my head since before the episode even aired! I even posted about it in the "happy stories" section. It is my Arrow Mid-season Slump Jam.

[Scribbles]

....

And now the two big things.

....poor Thea. She opened her mouth and Marc Guggenheim jumped out.

​....

Speaking of Malcolm! Here is the other exceedingly stupid portion of the episode.

Here Oliver finds out last week that Malcolm knows he has a son, and knows that Malcolm has vowed to destroy Oliver's life, yet it never occurs to anyone that they might want to keep tabs on this guy?... I mean, is Oliver just taking it for granted that Malcolm's going to go away and pop up at a more convenient time? Does it really never occur to him, to any of them, what Malcolm might do with all the information he has on all of them, now that he's royally pissed off and out for blood?

 

Oh how great it would be to see a modified gif that brings to pictures the poor Thea moment you describe.  TY for the laugh!

 

Is there any chance Thea proved effective in her research because her dad spilled the beans to her?  It just seems too convenient that Alex was away and Thea is suddenly so spot on in her research. 

[BkWurm1]

show, you have cheated me by not giving me any Laurel/Donna scenes. Likewise, any scenes of Laurel and Felicity reacting to the fact that their parents are dating. One of the few times I actually want Laurel scenes, and you refuse to give them to me.

 

 

This so much.  I'm holding on to hope that they are saving them as a rare bright spot post Olicity break up. 

 

I thought the demolition team, or whatever they were called, were pretty weak. These are the guys HIVE hires? Then again, Dark seems to be the only semi-competent person there and maybe he outsourced that day. The one thing they had going for them is their leader was Rachel Luttrell, Teyla from Stargate Atlantis.

 

 

 

The characterization of the demolition crew was weak but I was impressed with Rachel Luttrell's fighting.  Pretty sure I saw her face during most of her battle.  Makes sense since Telya did a lot of that on Atlantis.  Still, would it hurt to give them a few more lines?  Something to flesh them out just a tiny bit more. They were barely better than the ghosts and at this point I am so over faceless henchmen.  

From TheMovieNetwork review of 414:

 

Even though WM and OB are the official co-writers for this episode, I bet that MG gave significant input into some of the dialogue (especially Thea's speech to Oliver).  WM is usually better about writing character development and relationship-related dialogue.  I would've loved to have been a fly on the wall during script discussions between MG and WM.

 

Also, this episode was originally supposed to be directed by Antonio Negret (iirc).  So I wonder if after JBam took over the directing duties, they added more action stunt sequences.

 

 

 

After watching the episode, I am even sadder that Negret didn't direct.  I honestly don't have any complaints about the technical filming part but there were a lot of times when I felt a better director would have gotten a more nuanced or less rushed reaction.  Maybe that's in keeping with BamBam being a stunt guy and feeling more connected to keeping everything moving.  I don't know.  Maybe nothing would have helped.  Like I said before, I had a real hard time not getting stuck in my head on this episode. 

 

Or maybe the reception of the big lie was getting to the actors while they were filming.  Someone up thread pointed out that filming for this started just a couple days after 4-08 and I don't recall any review that mentioned the BMD having anything the least bit positive to say about it.  Every article I remember called the show out on it's crappy, weak storyline and to know that the episode they were filming was just doubling down on the crap that was to come...maybe it had the actors a bit off their game. 

 

I know, I'm reaching.  The reality I'm sure really is that this show is just poisoned until The Lie is done.  I was able to put it out of my mind (mostly) after 4-9 but now we're just too close.  Can't ignore it. 

 

 

 

I just want the lie to go away forever and ever, never to be spoken of again.  Ugh, I'm so tired of everything about it, and I know it'll be rearing it's ugly head big time next week, but damn!  It's so exhausting.  Please, send MG to LoT full-time where he can can destroy characters and entire seasons by focusing only on prearranged plot points.  

 

 

 

Yep, that's pretty much where I am...except I've been really impressed by how well they've been using the characters on LoT.  Though now that I think about it, LoT  does already have its own glaring plot hole (like why they keep not trying to kill the guy they want to kill)

It's sad that not even Wendy Mericle could salvage this episode.  With her way of writing 4x9, it made me forget the awful crossover and I just got lost in the epicness of olicity.  This episode was simply SECRETS & LIES painted everywhere on top of the cuteness.  It seemed like it was literally everywhere and the best she could do was have Thea justify it all as the cherry on top.       

Yeah, Thea's conversation with Oliver was too close to the bull MG has been pitching for WM to have a chance at doing anything.  This is their big plot pivoting point they are working toward. Wish someone had stopped and asked why they even want to break them up.  How is any of this good for the show or the characters? 

 

This is the same guy who thought Ray Palmer was the star of his own rom-com and anyone who didn't see him as the dashing hero come to sweep the damsel off her feet was wearing their shipper glasses too tight. 

 

I am general okay with MG, but I never quite forgave him for this. His own lens for what is and isn't a good story is cloudy with a definite chance of rain. See: Sara's unnecessary death, see Ray Palmer, see: Nyssa/Oliver "marriage", see: majority season 3. No wonder he thinks this baby mama drama is a good storyline (and interestingly, of the EPs he's the only one defending it...)

And what's so confusing is over on LoT Ray is totally changed for the better.  The ego maniac stalker is no where to be seen.  It's like it takes a year before the truth finally seeps in.  Guess that means next year they will be talking about tightening up the scripts to make sure they are logical to the characters or some other spin designed to admit their past errors while begging for everyone to return again (last summer it was it's going to be a lighter season and Felicity won't cry...well, as much)

Edited February 19, 2016 by BkWurm1

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Best moment of the episode: Oliver's face when the glitter exploded from the envelope.

 

Second best moment of the episode: Felicity scrambling to evacuate the building remotely and then Thea pulling the fire alarm.

 

I know I was supposed to get emotionally invested when Donna said that the reason she was being such a momzilla about all the wedding stuff is that she's living vicariously through them because their relationship is so perfect and beautiful and awesome, but all I could think was DUDE, IT'S NOT YOUR WEDDING. It just drives me crazy when I see parents getting way too involved with wedding planning. Oliver shouldn't have to say, "Donna, enough with all this fucking glitter," because she shouldn't be doing that stuff in the first place.

 

You guys have already covered the hypocrisy of Thea "how could you keep this a secret from me?" Queen telling Oliver that it's okay not to tell Felicity about William, so I won't bother to address is since we all know how stupid and out of character it was, thanks to MG feeling the need to justify this ridiculous continued lie. I rolled my eyes when Thea told Oliver that he's not actually lying to Felicity. Yup, I guess that if Oliver had just told you, "Well, TECHNICALLY I never lied to you about Malcolm being your father - it was just a secret I kept from you," then you would have been fine with it.

[BkWurm1]

I keep seeing it pop up in reviews where it’s pointed out that Felicity is at least sympathetic to Lance lying to her mother to protect her and this being somehow hypocritical later on when she will be upset about Oliver lying to her about William. 

 

Just want to say it’s not the same thing.  At all.

 

Lance was trying to put some distance between he and Donna so she was safe.  Right or wrong, he was doing it to keep her safe. Felicity knew he was lying with at least good intentions and she knew there really was danger to her mother.  She more than anyone knows it. 

 

Oliver on the other hand is not lying to Felicity to protect William or Felicity or anyone.  He’s just obeying an unenforceable edict that has already been blown since “tell no one” does not translate to “confirm to three people you have a kid.” 

 

The two lies are not comparable.  If all lying is equal, sure, fine, but I don’t believe that and I’m certain neither does Felicity.  They all lie about breaking the laws for the good of the city.  There are lies that yes, Felicity is fine with and while Quentin’s choice to lie to Donna was questionable, he did it with the best intentions for Donna since it seemed telling her the truth didn’t occur to him (and I can’t fault him since it didn’t initially occur to me either) and she genuinely would have been in danger, but Felicity sympathizing with that lie does not undercut being hurt that Oliver would lie to her about William when (apart from BM saying he can’t tell her,) he has zero reason not to tell her. 

 

At least Lance’s lie to Donna was in his mind for her benefit, again, the only one benefitting from Oliver’s lie to Felicity is Samantha so she can get her petty pound of flesh. 

 

I'm just saying I don't see how Felicity being ok with some kinds of lies means she isn't allowed to be mad as hell over this  BMD kind of lie.  Not the same kind of lie. 

Edited February 19, 2016 by BkWurm1

[ah-maa-zing]

@BkWurm1 - I've heard it said too, and obviously the show framed those two situations (Lance/Donna, Oliver/Felicity) as a kind of parallel.

 

While I don't believe that the lies are comparable, the point that I took from that conversation isn't that she's not allowed to be mad - like you said, there are lies and then there are lies. She's absolutely allowed to be mad and to push back and even to dump him if she so chooses. That's well within her rights. But once the mad has kind of dissipated, what's left is a situation where you have a choice - to forgive or not to forgive. 

 

To me, intent matters quite a bit in these things. If someone pushes me and I fall to the ground and hit my head, it's gonna hurt me no matter what their intention was. But there's a difference in how I choose to feel about it if, say, they accidentally jostle me and then apologise because their intent was never to hurt me, or if they maliciously throw me to the ground. Not an airtight analogy, but I hope you get what I mean. 

 

All that to say this: when Felicity tells Donna to look beyond her initial hurt and try to understand where Lance might be coming from, I don't see it so much as: "never be mad" or "forgive all lies immediately!" or even "let him walk all over you". I see it as her trying to look beyond the initial hurt and justifiable anger and to try to reach a place of understanding; especially because ultimately, he loves her and was stuck in a tight spot (ostensibly of his own making but whatever) and was trying to do the right thing by her and his child, and perhaps those two things just didn't quite add up. The intent was not to hurt her. 

 

That is where I think Felicity might be reminded of her own words (by Donna or even herself). I don't think this is going to happen immediately; I do think there's going to be a fallout and a period of time in which Felicity cannot or does not want to see beyond her own pain...but there are mitigating circumstances here (however contrived they are), and I would hope that in time, Felicity would see it from that perspective too. 

Edited February 19, 2016 by ah-maa-zing

[Midnight Lullaby]

@BkWurm1 - I've heard it said too, and obviously the show framed those two situations (Lance/Donna, Oliver/Felicity) as a kind of parallel.

 

While I don't believe that the lies are comparable, the point that I took from that conversation isn't that she's not allowed to be mad - like you said, there are lies and then there are lies. She's absolutely allowed to be mad and to push back and even to dump him if she so chooses. That's well within her rights. But once the mad has kind of dissipated, what's left is a situation where you have a choice - to forgive or not to forgive. 

 

To me, intent matters quite a bit in these things. If someone pushes me and I fall to the ground and hit my head, it's gonna hurt me no matter what their intention was. But there's a difference in how I choose to feel about it if, say, they accidentally jostle me and then apologise because their intent was never to hurt me, or if they maliciously throw me to the ground. Not an airtight analogy, but I hope you get what I mean. 

 

All that to say this: when Felicity tells Donna to look beyond her initial hurt and try to understand where Lance might be coming from, I don't see it so much as: "never be mad" or "forgive all lies immediately!" or even "let him walk all over you". I see it as her trying to look beyond the initial hurt and justifiable anger and to try to reach a place of understanding; especially because ultimately, he loves her and was stuck in a tight spot (ostensibly of his own making but whatever) and was trying to do the right thing by her and his child, and perhaps those two things just didn't quite add up. The intent was not to hurt her. 

 

That is where I think Felicity might be reminded of her own words (by Donna or even herself). I don't think this is going to happen immediately; I do think there's going to be a fallout and a period of time in which Felicity cannot or does not want to see beyond her own pain...but there are mitigating circumstances here (however contrived they are), and I would hope that in time, Felicity would see it from that perspective too.

The problem for me isn't that much Felicity forgiving Oliver or not (I think she will after the initial, justifiable anger) but Felicity trusting Oliver the way she does now again. Because to be with him and marry him trust seems a pretty big deal to me and Felicity showed how big of a deal it is to her too (the recent fallout with her dad, her reaction in 4x08, how mad she was about him trusting MM last year over them..)

She needs to believe, if faced with a difficult choice again, Oliver isn't going to lie to her again but remember they are partners and she is his first ally in everything. Because fool me once shame on you, fool me twice....and Felicity is in love, but she is no fool.

This is a hero's journey and it would be awesome if the writers used the mistakes the hero makes as a life lesson for him because it's discouraging to see Oliver doing the same mistakes over and over again no matter the fallout. He has to learn at some point.

I'd like to see Oliver proving to Felicity that he deserves her trust now because after years of lying and messing up because of it he has finally learned that being loyal and honest to the people closest to him is the right choice and would have avoided him and everyone else lots of pain, suffering and traumatic experiences.

[ah-maa-zing]

The problem for me isn't that much Felicity forgiving Oliver or not (I think she will after the initial, justifiable anger) but Felicity trusting Oliver the way she does now again. Because to be with him and marry him trust seems a pretty big deal to me and Felicity showed how big of a deal it is to her too (the recent fallout with her dad, her reaction in 4x08, how mad she was about him trusting MM last year over them..)

She needs to believe, if faced with a difficult choice again, Oliver isn't going to lie to her again but remember they are partners and she is his first ally in everything. Because fool me once shame on you, fool me twice....and Felicity is in love, but she is no fool.

This is a hero's journey and it would be awesome if the writers used the mistakes the hero makes as a life lesson for him because it's discouraging to see Oliver doing the same mistakes over and over again no matter the fallout. He has to learn at some point.

I'd like to see Oliver proving to Felicity that he deserves her trust now because after years of lying and messing up because of it he has finally learned that being loyal and honest to the people closest to him is the right choice and would have avoided him and everyone else lots of pain, suffering and traumatic experiences.

 

Agreed. I think he's largely learnt that lesson in respect of the team (and letting them make their own choices/keeping things a secret etc.) this year. I believe that all the Mature!Oliver we saw in 4a and parts of 4b where he actively chose to take a back seat and let others make their own decisions/choices (esp. with regards to his relationship with Thea) laid the groundwork for the fact that Oliver can and does learn from the mistakes he's making, and that he can and will learn from this one too. 

 

All of the "You don't have to do this alone" and "Nothing worthwhile ever comes easy" and "Marriage is about sticking together in the hard times" and even "It's my life, it's my choice" have been anvils that the show has dropped periodically throughout the season, albeit more softly than in this last episode. To me that indicates that the tools are already there; the conversations have been had and the awareness - at least the theory of it - is already within Oliver. Yes, he needs to prove - to show and not tell - these things definitively to Felicity. Maybe it's the optimist in me, but for all the contrivances and trauma that the writers put Oliver through, for all that they sometimes make him look like an absolute dolt who makes hugely questionable decisions, its always done with the intention of making him grow. I don't believe that growth is necessary linear - in that you just keep moving forward and never take a step back or make a mistake - so perhaps my stance on this is a little softer than that of others. And perhaps it's also a result of SA's acting and not necessarily the script, but when he tells Lance that he's trying to be better, and emphasises the "trying", I believe it, and I believe that there's a duel within him, and that losing Felicity - however short-term that loss is - will cause him to re-evaluate the way that he chooses to react to these things. 

[dtissagirl]

The one thing I really really REALLY need to happen next week is for the narrative to point out that Oliver's actions [or lack thereof] lead to DD kidnapping the kid.

 

I fear they won't go there because they're trying to sell this as Oliver ~had super solid valid reasons~ to lie, and here's Thea explaining why in a weird dudebro voice that sounds exactly like Marc Guggenheim, but someone [Diggle would be awesome in this role] needs to tell Oliver that if they knew about the kid, they could have put up safeguards to avoid what happened.

[apinknightmare]

I'd like that too, since they're acting like Felicity is some evil mastermind who'd eliminate the kid if she found out about him, or someone who can't be trusted with huge secrets, which is clearly not true. The first words out of Thea's mouth should've been, "Being your kid isn't safe. If it's his safety you're worried about, tell the team, *especially* Felicity."

This show, lol.

[bijoux]

I'd prefer it to be Felicity, but Dig is a fine option for serving truth tea as well.

[ah-maa-zing]

I think Felicity may get to say a variation of the "And you didn't think you could trust me with your secret?" which would then prompt Oliver into trying to find a response that doesn't sound utterly ridiculous, and when he can't, realise (d'oh!) that the reason he can't is because IT'S NOT RATIONAL. Amell plays that kind of situation quite well...and Oliver would have a moment where, in trying to justify his (lack of) reasoning, he realises that nothing he says is actually going to make sense. 

 

I'd also love for Digg to do it, but coming from Felicity it will be an even greater gut punch. 

 

Also, I'd now really like to see a video/GIFset of the Thea/Oliver scene with Guggenheim's head superimposed on hers, and possibly a douchey dudebro voiceover spouting those same lines. Just...because. (Hey, if we can get a "Blah blah" Felicity screensaver, we can get one of these too...right?)

[Midnight Lullaby]

I'd like to see either Felicity or Diggle, but I would settle for anyone, pointing out that the team would have kept the kid safe if only they knew. But at that point I'm afraid Oliver will become MG and say "I made a promise to the mother of my child!" and I don't really want to see that, or anyone agreeing with Oliver that he was forced and he did the best he could in an impossible situation because he wasn't forced and it clearly wasn't the best choice because it led to the kid getting kidnapped.

The best scenario IMO would be for the writers to acknowledge that the fans' idea of Oliver being afraid of losing Felicity has more merit than their own and incorporate that in the show. Because it's easier to empathize if a stupid decision came from an emotional place than if it was the result of a rational decision to be loyal to BM and not to the person who has always stood beside him.

[rtalive]

Wow ,this episode was really strange. It seemed to me that I was watching two different shows mashed up at one. There was the funny light part about engagement, glitter and keeping secrets to protect the loved ones, and there was the action and a lot of explosions.

The think is I couldn't quite figure it out how these two subplots actually worked. IN one moment I am watching our heroes in masks running from falling buildings and fighting bad guys for two minutes and then they are back to formal clothes talking about completely different things as if nothing happened. What I am trying to say is that there wasn't any built up for the scenes, too many filler scenes, two many subplots, and a lot of missed opportunities for good scenes.

For example I wanted to see the debate. I wanted Oliver to outsmart Dark's wife and to see her being also evil and smart.

Also I wanted to see her reaction to the fact that the demolition team was beaten by team Arrow in the theater were was the debate and that Oliver Queen was unharmed. They cut too quickly between the two scenes. She was supposed to be a tough opponent in the Oliver's fight in the light but we actually saw so little of that.

I liked very much that Curtis invented a bio chip that will make Felicity walk again, because I just want her so much to walk again, but again it was such a minor part in the episode, no built up, no real struggle, just one cute but very short scene where he gives this big present. It just seemed so easy and so forgettable. So another missed opportunity to be main plot of an episode.

In the flashbacks I was so excited to see Oliver fight all the guys that wanted to attack him, and while doing so try to convince them he is on their side. And then kill Cocklin because he just hates the guy and escapes. But instead we had again another female character asks him to kill for her, without him actually wanting it. And he ends up in the same position he was before killing Cocklin, in prison.

[kismet]

I'm frustrated because they had the perfect opportunity for TQ to take OQ's side and say that she understands why he initially withheld the secret but now it is time to tell his team to protect William. It would have been very dramatic for the siblings to reach this realization at the end of the show and then cut to reveal DD new baby-sitting gig. That way we could still have the fallout from the secret, but it would not have made TQ sound like a hypocrite or OQ forced illogicality.

 

I understand why OQ initially withheld the truth from everyone. I also understand why he felt he needed to work with the mother's demands instead of pursuing legal avenues. Personally, I might have done the same thing in his scenario, while I work to gain the mother's trust, so that I could tell my loved ones.What I don't understand is the minute he found out the MM knew about his child, he decides to still keep the secret. Furthermore, in the next episode when he is given a lifeline/bailout because TQ found out on her own he does not capitalize on it.

 

That is where I find the writing so poor & frustrating. Because you can still milk the drama of secret keepings & move the plot, but it you can do it without sacrificing your characters. Instead, they just filleted both the Queens for plot. I also think by having MM reveal to OQ that he knows about his son, it permanently set OQ up to look like a fool. Remove the MM knowing about the secret & perhaps some of MG's philosophy on secret keeping might be able to stay a float. But right now the plot is drowning in TPTB's stupidity & stubbornness. What had the potential to be about the characters & their growth development has now become about plot & therefore easier to handwave.