S05.E10: Map of the Seven Knights

[jbrecken]

Meisner and Trubel look at a computer screen where it's labeled "Czechoslovakia: Police Report."  Apparently having a bunch of Royals running things behind the scenes isn't the only difference between the Europe in the world of Grimm and ours.

[OtterMommy]

Meisner and Trubel look at a computer screen where it's labeled "Czechoslovakia: Police Report."  Apparently having a bunch of Royals running things behind the scenes isn't the only difference between the Europe in the world of Grimm and ours.

 

And, um, didn't Czechoslovakia cease to exist about 25 years ago?

[OtterMommy]

Wow...I managed to watch this ep within 24 hours.  I think that's a record for me this season!

 

First off, I FF'd through anything with Adalind because, as I said before, I just can't.  And, the thing is, it isn't even Adalind!  It's the situation!  If Adalind was no longer a drab housewife and someone halfway interesting (who wasn't shacking up with the man she raped....), I'd have no problem.  But, no...

 

Speaking of that, I also went through the scene with Nick and Monroe, although I did watch it as a sneak peek earlier.  Seriously, it gave me all sorts of icks.  What is wrong with these people who think that "slept with" is the same as "raped"?  You know, the show actually had an opportunity here.  They could have acknowledged what Adalind to Nick as rape and, even if Nick is still in whatever state of mind that seems to block that out (and I do think there is something like that...that Nick consciously made the decision to not deal with things in the first episode when he thought he heard Juliette's voice), have Adalind *be* the sort of character (villain) who would do the sort of thing she did to Nick AND exploit the situation.  But no.......

 

Eve....So, this is probably not a popular opinion, but I'm intrigued by her right now.  That being said, I don't think she can stay this way for more than a few more episodes.  She's either going to have to go full-out evil or crack to reveal some remaining Juliette in her.  Personally, I hope it is the latter--because we know that evil isn't Bitsie Tulloch's strong suit (and Claire Coffee can do it quite well).  But, how she is now is needs to be a finite sort of thing.  And, no...I don't think they'll kill her off--they went to far too much trouble to bring her back.

 

I don't know if I *like* Meisner, but I do like how Damien Puckler is playing him.  I think a lesser actor would keep him a very one-dimensional character, but Puckler is giving him depth that the script doesn't provide.

 

I also liked Jacqueline Toboni more in this episode than I did in the past.  In an post on an earlier episode, TheaterMouse said that her monotone was probably an acting choice and I am starting to agree--I also don't think it is a great choice, but whatever.  Trubel definitely seemed to have more life in her tonight that I'm used to seeing.

 

Silas, oh Silas.  I love Monroe, but I think you might be too good for this show....

 

Oh, and Felix...despite the fact that you woged into Vladimir Lenin, I have to admit that I fell a little in love with you...and now you're dead.  And I am sad.

 

So, I had to laugh when Trubel (I think) said that there is some sort of alarm that goes off at Hadrian's Wall whenever the Black Claw mark is found anywhere in the world.  That alarm must be ringing constantly for the Philippines since THAT IS THE SAME MARK THE ASWANG MAKE!  Seriously, how hard is it for the writers/creators to go back ONE YEAR to see what the show has already done?  You know what?  They could have made it 3 black lines, or 5...but no.....

 

I'm still miffed that the Black Claw/Hadrian's Wall thing even exists in this show (other than the fact that it brought Damien Puckler back).  It just doesn't fit.  There are too many pieces right now, especially with them now all of a sudden solving the mystery of the keys (and check in the Wishlist thread for my prediction there....).  And, frankly, if it were its own show, I would totally watch it.  I just don't want to watch it here.

 

Speaking of things that don't belong in this show...the mayoral race.  For the love of all that is holy, something needs to start to happen here.  It has nothing to do with anything, at least not yet, and I just do not care.  If they had made it so Renard was the one running for office, I might have been more interested, now--well, I'd FF through it, except that takes too much effort.

 

All in all, it was pretty good.  Not wonderful--and I did have to accept the fact that it was an attempt to fix the fuck up of last season, but whatever.  I can live with that.  Now can they fix the fuck up of Nadalind?

Edited February 21, 2016 by OtterMommy

[neuromom]

Good to see you back in the trenches (watching the show) , OtterMommy! Your posts are great anyway, but SO much better and on target when you've actually watched the show.

Please stick with us!

And I'm assuming if you FF Adalind, you did a FF of the "dinner party " scene? Gosh, that was ALL kinds of wrong! It was totally like they switched out Juliette foe Adalind. And like you, I can't forget the rape. Not just of Nick, but Hank too. Oh, AND the poison cookie that Wu got. But everyone is "let's open a bottle of wine!" Gah!

Oh, and is there a betting pool yet on what kind of Wesen/Grimm/human Meisner is? Because I have no clue, and my bet would be that the writers don't either (yet).

And, when Meisner says this is a "government" operation..which government? The U.S? This "war" is occurring all over the world. So, the U.S. Is behind the fighting of this war? Or is it some super secret World Governemnt organization?

ETA- all the questions that keep popping into my head.

Edited February 21, 2016 by neuromom

[OtterMommy]

Good to see you back in the trenches (watching the show) , OtterMommy! Your posts are great anyway, but SO much better and on target when you've actually watched the show.

Please stick with us!

And I'm assuming if you FF Adalind, you did a FF of the "dinner party " scene? Gosh, that was ALL kinds of wrong! It was totally like they switched out Juliette foe Adalind. And like you, I can't forget the rape. Not just of Nick, but Hank too. Oh, AND the poison cookie that Wu got. But everyone is "let's open a bottle of wine!" Gah!

Oh, and is there a betting pool yet on what kind of Wesen/Grimm/human Meisner is? Because I have no clue, and my bet would be that the writers don't either (yet).

 

 

Awww, thanks!  I think I'll definitely be here for at least the next couple of episodes.  With Nick in "Germany" and Adalind not, I'm sure the repulsion factor will be limited (and I think it might be an opportunity for some, um, let's say "growth" from Adalind...just a hope on my part....).  And, yeah, I totally skipped the dinner party--for the same reason that I skipped Nick's conversation with Monroe.  I'd prefer to continue to like the characters of Monroe, Rosalee, Hank, Wu (was he there?  I FF'd it) and I might not be able to do that if they keep acting like Adalind is some saint.  Ugh!

 

Meisner--I'm in 100% agreement with you that the writers don't even know yet.  Personally, I'd put my money on him being a zauberbiest.  I don't think he's a Grimm and he doesn't seem to have a problem with hexenbiests, so zauberbiest would at least make sense.  Plus, maybe then we'd find out what a zauberbiest actually is.  First we're told that they are male hexenbiests but they clearly don't have the same powers AND last season Renard said that they were different, but we were never told HOW they were different.

 

ETA: Your point about the government agency.  I got the feeling that it was something like the FBI and that it was an American agency--but that may all be just because Chavez was an FBI agent and I'm drawing too much from that.  Again, I'm not sure how the viewers are supposed to know when I'm pretty sure that the writers haven't figured it out yet....

Edited February 21, 2016 by OtterMommy

[OtterMommy]

The rooftop scene at the fortress was super incongruous -- the supposedly secret location looks like it's right in the city.  Even if the perspective was wonky, there sure looked to be an apartment building right behind Monroe.

 

That view of the city was from the East Bank Esplanade, near OMSI.  While there used to be a fair number of warehouses there, it's all pretty high rent (and fully occupied and highly trafficked) now.  If Nick were to live in an abandoned factory, it would either have to be north, almost to the Columbia River, or--and this is more likely--south into Oregon City.  Neither location has great night time views....

I forgot to include this is my initial post-viewing post.

 

We need an explanation of the keys.  Nick had 2.  In season 2, Renard said that they Royals had 4, which left one key.  However, there were 3 in the chest.  So either there were 9 keys or the Royals are somehow involved once again (....or...the writers are idiots).

[OtterMommy]

I almost forgot. When Monroe said, "You killed my uncle," did anyone add, "prepare to die?"

 

 

I did!  I did!  (Raising hand over here!  Glad to know i wasn't the only one!)

 

[jhlipton]

No, it is actually better to handle rare books without gloves because you loose tactile sensation with gloves so you are more likely to accidentally damage it. The important thing is to wash your hands immediately befor handling the book. In rare book reading rooms, they often request that patrons use gloves because the librarians cannot trust that people have washed their hands well, and there is also concern about how a request to wash your hands will be perceived. I will wear gloves to carry rare books sometimes because of the icky red rot in some bindings, but I would never turn the pages wearing gloves.

 

 

Thanks for the explanation.  I'd always presumed that the amount of acid on fingertips made it imperative to wear gloves. But the whole gang was pawing over the books (Monroe and Rosalee almost literally).  My inner bibliophile was yelling "NOOOOOOOOO!!!!"

 

I almost forgot. When Monroe said, "You killed my uncle," did anyone add, "prepare to die!"?

 

 

Yep, I did!

[33kaitykaity]

Regarding where the top of the fortress/home was filmed from, the skyline view is of downtown west across the Willamette River from inner Southeast, which is a heavily industrial area. But there is a red-faced brick building at 563 SE Hawthorne Blvd. that has the exact same windows as the building someone pointed out earlier looks like an apartment building.  It's county offices.  

Edited February 21, 2016 by 33kaitykaity

[ShadowFacts]

Regarding where the top of the fortress/home was filmed from, the skyline view is of downtown west across the Williamette River from inner Southeast, which is a heavily industrial area. But there is a red-faced brick building at 563 SE Hawthorne Blvd. that has the exact same windows as the building someone pointed out earlier looks like an apartment building.  It's county offices.  

That's interesting.  And doesn't really fit with the abandoned paint factory being some secluded, secret location.  Poor baby Kelly, his mother is de-powered and his father the cop + Grimm maybe has not picked a super safe location.  But it was a pretty view when Monroe and Nick were on the roof right out in the open.

[jmonique]

So can someone help me out?

I was wondering which show Renard is on? Because it really doesn't feel like he's on "Grimm."

[Prevailing Wind]

I think it's "House of Cards."

[Hiddenpick]

Yay!! They found the keys--to my heart and the show's heart that is, and not a moment too soon. There was no dragging or lagging scenes in this episode, it was well-wound and pertinent. It was not weighed down by a procedural sequence as have been the case in some of the episodes. Procedurals have (sometimes) been intrusive in a show with meager plotting--well maybe I should say a season (thus far) with woefully uneven story telling which has in turn marginalized the mythos. What this outing did was bring the focus back on a long lost mythological plot.

 

It was exciting to watch the story unfold even thrilling. Okay so maybe I'm going a tad overboard with the description of the emotional impact, but I was neither restless nor bored in viewing. The story-line wasn't useless or deplored. The way the episode was formatted was cool in that with exclusion of a case of the week scenario, the story was enriched with depth and weight. I was just as intrigued and excited as the characters were to learn the contents of the trunk and was impressed by how the acquisition of these book and artifacts was incorporated in the Black Claw plot.

 

I liked seeing the team together, discovering and researching this new treasure trove of intel. I love Monroe's uncle Felix and how urgent he made the importance of the discovery seem. As Felix babbled on excitedly about the historical aspects, this particular  familial trait made it clear to the group and I that this was absolutely Monroe's family. RIP Uncle Felix, you were a delight even for your short stay. Black Forest here we come.

 

The conversation between Nick and Monroe about Adalind/Juliette/Eve/Nick was amusing simply because among other things,  I could hear the roar of thunder and the crackling of lightening from those who cannot stand Nick/Adalind. Me? I don't get hives contemplating their hook up. If they get together, cool; if not that's cool too. I think though Nick suspects what her feelings for him are and he knows his for her, just don't think he's ready to share.

 

In spite of the awesomeness of this episode, there were some minor but puzzling moments. Renard and the mayoral race? Why?

Eve doing levitation push ups seemed a silly and unnecessary scene. The topic of Trubel's conversation seemed equally curious; as was the timing of said convo. They have been in contact for what?... weeks--possibly months? yet, they're just now having this conversation? I don't trust Eve. I don't trust or understand this dissociative disorder and the claim that she knows but doesn't feel. And in as much as Meiser helped to mold this creature, dunno if I trust him either. On the other hand, I loved Monroe's not so subtle remark about the "not an accident" destruction of the trailer. Nice.

Meiser's aggression is spilling into areas that I'm not sure I like. It may be an insignificant moment, but his dismissive and authoritative tone that he 'won't risk' Trubel helping Nick retrieve the trunk seemed out of line and Trubeling...er..troubling.

 

In any event Teresa's absence allowed Nick and Monroe's excellent adventure to occur. The boys were up to the task. Well actually Monroe with his bad-ass Blutbat self. Pity the fool who messes with a Blutbat--and the fools who tried were the flying? Anubis. Ahh, that moment when Nick and Monroe faced each other as Grimm and Wesen, *shrudder* tense. It brought home the fact that these two men have forged an unusual connection and friendship. 

 

 

[iMonrey]

 

First off, I FF'd through anything with Adalind because, as I said before, I just can't.  And, the thing is, it isn't even Adalind!  It's the situation!  If Adalind was no longer a drab housewife and someone halfway interesting (who wasn't shacking up with the man she raped....), I'd have no problem.  But, no...

 

It's sort of like the writers listened to the fans complaints and feedback but didn't respond to it correctly. With Adalind, for example, I think there was a lot of positive feedback about Claire Coffee because she's a good actress and made a good villain. I think a lot of people also pointed out she had more chemistry with Nick than Juliette did, although the criticism was more about the irony of that. So what do the writers do? Come up with some convoluted plot device where she and Nick actually wind up together after she essentially raped him and got pregnant with his baby.  That doesn't fix things.

 

Same with Juliette - a lot of negative feedback about the character and/or actress, but I guess this show really likes Bitsie and doesn't want to fire her, so they come up with some crazy way of re-inventing her as a different character like they think that fixes it. It doesn't. 

[OtterMommy]

It's sort of like the writers listened to the fans complaints and feedback but didn't respond to it correctly. With Adalind, for example, I think there was a lot of positive feedback about Claire Coffee because she's a good actress and made a good villain. I think a lot of people also pointed out she had more chemistry with Nick than Juliette did, although the criticism was more about the irony of that. So what do the writers do? Come up with some convoluted plot device where she and Nick actually wind up together after she essentially raped him and got pregnant with his baby.  That doesn't fix things.

 

Same with Juliette - a lot of negative feedback about the character and/or actress, but I guess this show really likes Bitsie and doesn't want to fire her, so they come up with some crazy way of re-inventing her as a different character like they think that fixes it. It doesn't. 

 

I agree completely with this--it's like that old kids' book, "Half Magic" or something like that where the magic spells only half work.  It's like the creators only hear the first half of any criticism and act on it.  The chemistry thing.  I think that Nick and Adalind had great chemistry (and now the creative team has stopped listening) as adversaries.  I think they played very well off each other...as adversaries.  What I've seen of whatever this is, though, has (in my opinion) been devoid of any chemistry at all.

 

As someone said on another thread....just because two characters have chemistry does NOT mean they should be in a romantic relationship.  I also think it is possible for characters, such as Nick and Adalind, to have chemistry in one situation and not another (and I think the show is proving that point quite well right now...)

[possibilities]

The Adalind situation is really weird because even if she hadn't raped him, taking a complex and interesting villain acted by a skilled and nuanced actress, and turning her into a bland mommy who does nothing but stay at home and greet visitors and put the baby to sleep off camera, is kind of a weird choice. Nick's previous domestic partner was often criticized for being too bland (I liked original Juliette, but I accept that many people found her boring), but now they have given him an even less active character to co-habit with, and no one can blame the actress because we know she's capable of more.

[jmonique]

I think it's "House of Cards."

 

That's exactly it. Why do the writers continue to sequester one of the strongest actors on the show in random-ass storylines that rarely if ever intersect with the rest of the cast? And while Renard is off to the left, acting with random day players, Bitsy's character is reinvented not once, but twice? And I know she has a lot of fans, but the actress who plays Trubel is pretty obviously learning on the job as well.

So why sideline Renard? I don't get it.

[OtterMommy]

As a person who does get sick of all the hate that Juliette/Bitsie gets (I don't love or hate her), I have to say that I have had it with the "Juliette is dead" skit!

 

This is one of the more ridiculous things they've done (but not the most ridiculous--that still belongs to "Nadalind.")  I mean, Juliette is obviously not dead.  She's walking, talking, etc.  And, with what this show has done in the past, they could have theoretically come up with some way for Juliette to be actually dead but have Bitsie play another character (we've seen at least 2 difference instances of hexenbiests using dead bodies for something).  But, "Eve" has Juliette's history but isn't Juliette?  No, sorry.  That's just moronic.

 

I'm sticking with my belief that Juliette is suffering from extreme PTSD to the point that it caused some sort of personality disassociation.  Notice how quick she is to cut anyone off when they say anything that might illicit any sort of emotion.  My guess (or hope, although I still think it is a bad idea-but, again, not as bad as "Nadalind") is that she'll "break" and we'll eventually get Juliette back.  Besides, the show is putting in a lot of effort to tell us that she's dead--which means she's not....

[ottilie]

Capt Renard's mother could technically come back from wherever she's been and announce "oh my goodness, I guess my spell that transferred the identity of these two women did not work right, and it's because I forgot one ingredient in the potion. Here, let me correct that" and she could set them back to their original condition. She is a hexenbiest after all.

[OtterMommy]

Capt Renard's mother could technically come back from wherever she's been and announce "oh my goodness, I guess my spell that transferred the identity of these two women did not work right, and it's because I forgot one ingredient in the potion. Here, let me correct that" and she could set them back to their original condition. She is a hexenbiest after all.

 

Replying in the wishlist thread....

[Darklazr]

I finally watched Friday's episode.

 

Nick.  It was nice to see him in Grimm mode, I just wished he had not wasted time in calling Trubel and handled his own business with Monroe and the man's Uncle.

 

Trubel and Juliette are like relatives that stay too long and you can't wait until they leave.

 

Grimm Books.  How nice to see the books, but why not have super power snowflake Hexenbiest cast a spell to undo the damage to the trailer.

 

CC looks good with her new haircut and color.

 

Renard said the Royal's had four keys and Nick has two keys.

[Darklazr]

Don't you know? It's because she's a bad-ass now, and bad-asses aren't nice. I think she stated that multiple times throughout the episode, in case you missed it the first time.

 

Ms. Bad-Ass doesn't owe Juliette ANYTHING. Grrr...

 

Ugh.  I feel a Juliette is still alive rant coming on, but it is late and I need to go to bed!

So can someone help me out?

I was wondering which show Renard is on? Because it really doesn't feel like he's on "Grimm."

 

I suspect the Mayoral side story will end up being part of BC that wants to take over the town, and Renard just happens to be friends with Dixon.

 

Renard should be more in the loop with the Scoobie team, and find out what is going on with Meisner and HW.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Awww, I loved Monroe's uncle! Anyone who can get that worked up about books and instantaneously spew the entire history of a book, where it came from, etc. gets a high five from me.

 

I was also fine with Monroe killing those two Black Claw guys, because I don't think Nick and Hank would have been able to tie them to the murders of Felix or the paramedics enough to get a conviction (and even if they did, how much do you want to bet that Black Claw would somehow get them out of it and sent back home?).

 

And now on to everything else, most of which sucked. As happy as I am for Nick to have some grimm stuff again so that his research doesn't consist of asking Monroe and Rosalee if they've ever heard of/seen whatever the wesen of the week is, how convenient that he got an entire treasure chest full of stuff AND they didn't have to fork over $100K?

 

Did the lady who was killed say that the dead guy's family wanted everything sold quickly? So does that mean he wasn't a grimm? Or he didn't have any family members who were grimms? Or he was a grimm but no one in his family knew?

 

I just can't with Eve. It's like now Bitsie has this pass to act like a robot (as opposed to when she was Juliette and she was supposed to act somewhat human). At least the Buffybot and Vicky on Small Wonder were funny. Eve is boring yet annoying. I didn't realize that was possible.

 

I loved how Felix wouldn't let Nick touch the grimm book with his bare hands and made him wear gloves, but when Monroe brought the book to Meisner, he carefully wrapped it in a cloth and then opened it with his bare hands. Then at the end of the episode, everyone just started grabbing books and flipping through them. They're old and delicate, you guys! Be careful! And even though we learned from a previous poster that it's better to handle the pages with bare hands, my point is that Monroe, Rosalee, and Nick all heard Felix say not to and then they just ignored it at the end.

 

When Adalind said, "Hey!" in a totally friendly/casual way when Monroe, Rosalee, Hank, and Wu came over, I was like OH HELL NO. How can she say hi to them like that, as if she never tried to kill any of them? How can Wu stand to be in the same room with her after the cookie incident? How can Hank stand to be around her after she put him in a coma? I guess that's why they had Monroe have the whole "Do you like her? Or do you LIKE LIKE her?" conversation with Nick. I could not believe they had him make a joke about Nick sleeping with both of them when they were each other. That is a pretty generous way to put it.

 

Renard's boring "I support this mayoral candidate" storyline is soooooo boring. I can't wait until the election is over so we can find out the new mayor is eeeeevil.

Edited February 22, 2016 by ElectricBoogaloo

[OakGoblinFly]

So if Meisner had to "break" Juilette to turn her into Eve, why is he looking to her for direction?  Is Eve in charge?

[tpel]

I have no idea what Sean is doing with the election story, but he seemed a little evil there, again. I wonder if he's relapsing.

 

 

Yeah, this story line is kind of dull, but I am amused that what might make Renard relapse into his more shady ways isn't the crapstorm of wesen related stuff around him, but is POLITICS. Besides being funny, it is totally in character for him: his coin-induced delusions revolved around gaining political power -- not necessarily abusing it, but definitely having it in abundance. Makes sense for that to be a weakness of the bastard son of a powerful family.

 

I don't know if I *like* Meisner, but I do like how Damien Puckler is playing him.  I think a lesser actor would keep him a very one-dimensional character, but Puckler is giving him depth that the script doesn't provide.

 

 

I agree, OtterMommy. There is something intriguing about the character, despite the fact that he's been around a while and we know next to nothing about him. The writing for him is uneven, sometimes giving the character a chance to shine, but often just serving the convenience of the plot. An example of the latter was, I think, when he prevented Trubel from helping her friends retrieve the books. With a blutbad and a Grimm against two hyena-like wessen (one of whom was already injured), the fight was already a bit anticlimactic. Adding Trubel to the fray would have made it even less of a challenge for our guys. So having Meisner hold her back was an easy way to preserve some excitement at the end of the episode. Yet the way DP plays his scenes is interesting, even when the scenes are pretty functional. 

[ottilie]

"Renard should be more in the loop with the Scoobie team, and find out what is going on with Meisner and HW."

--very true. He did work with Meisner extensively before, and he has now only spent 5 minutes with him since he moved to the gov't project in Portland. I anticipate that show writers are deliberately stretching out explaining what his purpose and goals are, just like they spent about 3 episodes hiding the operations of the HW bunker, and slowly revealing that Juliette had been put under mind control and transformed into Eve. It was actually fairly good suspense writing. Maybe they could explain that Meisner is mostly a mercenary, and Capt. Renard sensibly stays at a distance so they don't reveal that he ordered the hit on his brother Eric.

  The angle that I would find the most satisfying as a story would go back to Sebastian's remark that Meisner used to be a bohemian in Berlin, and Meisner also mentioning to Renard that his royal family killed his parents and girlfriend. We just don't understand why they killed his parents yet. Maybe Meisner has a complicated revenge motive where he decided to train to be a warrior to retaliate against the people who harmed him. There was a reason why Chavez picked him out.

 

The other thing though (which just might not be possible to answer in the script) is that female witches and probably male zauberbiests too are so powerful that you'd think they could quickly cast a bunch of spells and solve problems right away (leaving no plot or challenges to resolve unless it was entirely witch vs. witch). Yet, they seem so restrained, given their powers.

Edited February 22, 2016 by ottilie

[OtterMommy]

So if Meisner had to "break" Juilette to turn her into Eve, why is he looking to her for direction?  Is Eve in charge?

 

I really have no clue...nothing in that bunker makes sense.

 

I'm just hoping that there is some piece that the audience doesn't yet know and, once it is revealed, everything will make sense.

 

I mean, I doubt that will happen...but one can only hope.

 

Also, I have to admit that I was a little disappointed when we didn't get the "identification" view of everyone there when Monroe showed up.  I would have loved to see if the show committed to "Monroe" or if they went the "Eddie/Edward/Edmund/whatever Monroe" route....

The other thing though (which just might not be possible to answer in the script) is that female witches and probably male zauberbiests too are so powerful that you'd think they could quickly cast a bunch of spells and solve problems right away (leaving no plot or challenges to resolve unless it was entirely witch vs. witch). Yet, they seem so restrained, given their powers.

 

As far as I can tell, the only "Power" a zauberbiest has is to look ugly on command.  Of course, the only one we know is Renard (we think!), so it is hard to be sure.  But most of his power seems (er, seemed...back in season 1 and early season 2) to be a Machiavellian ability to manipulate people--and I don't think that has anything to do with being a zauberbiest.

 

What we do know:

1 - Zauberbiests might just be male hexenbiests.

2 - Renard says that zauberbiests are not the same as hexenbiests, but never elaborated

3 - They can make their faces look decayed, but not to the point that hexenbiests do (however, that might be due to Renard being "half-zauberbiest."  Which I'm also not sure makes sense)

4 - They are physically stronger when woged.

 

And....that's it...

[FormerMod-a1]

My crackpot fear is that Juliette did die and when they revived her, only her body and not her "soul" was revived with all hexen powers in tact.  So that had to break her as a pure hexen.  And then since they took Kelly's (Nick's mom, not his baby) head and body, they used her brain to download Kelly into "Eve's" body and then buried her body.  

[Hanahope]

Renard said the Royal's had four keys and Nick has two keys.

 

 

It was my recollection that the royals had "four keys" after Renard made copies/stamps of Nick's two keys.  Either that, or someone counted the number of keys wrong.

 

While its great to have books again, and a trunk with some equipment, it still doesn't replace the countless items the van had.  i'm still amazed/angry that the writers had Juliette destroy everything.  Some of that stuff probably can never be replaced (like that huge gun Monroe used in S1 on one wesen), not to mention all the potions and other assorted objects.

.

[tpel]

So if Meisner had to "break" Juilette to turn her into Eve, why is he looking to her for direction?  Is Eve in charge?

 

 

I don't think Eve is in charge, but I don't think Meisner is in charge either. I think he, like Trubel and Eve, are assets of HW. His skill set -- which includes all manner of Getting. Shit. Done., from assassination to organizing troops to beating hexenbieste -- generally puts him in a position of some authority. But he's a tool to be used by the higher ups. The question is, why would he go for this arrangement? I mean, Eve was basically brainwashed and Trubel is young and looking for meaning, but Meisner was a successful mercenary who already had, it seems, a mission of vengeance against the Royals. Has he left the Resistance to work for Hadrian's Wall, or are the two groups connected more deeply than we might think?

 

Of course, I may be looking for sense where there is none. It is quite possible that the writers had this name "Meisner" that they threw in when they needed something violent to be done off-screen, then eventually it moved the plot along have him show up on-screen. Fortuitously, the guy they cast happened to be hot and magnetic, and a good actor to boot, so they expanded the role without thinking it through much. Usually that doesn't work very well, but in this case, it kind of did.

 

Hey, doesn't he deserve his own thread? I would start one, but I don't know what to call it  :-)

Edited February 22, 2016 by tpel

[OtterMommy]

It was my recollection that the royals had "four keys" after Renard made copies/stamps of Nick's two keys.  Either that, or someone counted the number of keys wrong.

 

While its great to have books again, and a trunk with some equipment, it still doesn't replace the countless items the van had.  i'm still amazed/angry that the writers had Juliette destroy everything.  Some of that stuff probably can never be replaced (like that huge gun Monroe used in S1 on one wesen), not to mention all the potions and other assorted objects.

.

 

The writers are going to have to fix the key issue--most likely by somehow bringing the royals back up.  I mean, they obviously screwed up, either by forgetting that the Royals had 4 keys or realizing that, while Nick and Monroe don't need all 7 keys to put the map together, they do need more than 3 (5 should be enough, providing that they are the "right" 5 keys and, since this is TV, we know they will be).  My guess is that we'll get a throw away line sometime about how "valuables" were stolen from the Royals...blah blah blah.

 

Speaking of the writers screwing up, I don't think they realized what an impact burning the trailer would be.  I really don't think they expected people to hate Juliette *that much* for it.  And, really, what was the point?  Not having the trailer has not played any part in the show and, now, it doesn't even matter as they have a new set of everything. 

[OtterMommy]

I don't think Eve is in charge, but I don't think Meisner is in charge either. I think he, like Trubel and Eve, are assets of HW. His skill set -- which includes all manner of Getting. Shit. Done., from assassination to organizing troops to beating hexenbieste -- generally puts him in a position of some authority. But he's a tool to be used by the higher ups. The question is, why would he go for this arrangement? I mean, Eve was basically brainwashed and Trubel is young and looking for meaning, but Meisner was a successful mercenary who already had, it seems, a mission of vengeance against the Royals. Has he left the Resistance to work for Hadrian's Wall, or are the two groups connected more deeply than we might think?

 

Of course, I may be looking for sense where there is none. It is quite possible that the writers had this name "Meisner" that they threw in when they needed something violent to be done off-screen, then eventually it moved the plot along have him show up on-screen. Fortuitously, the guy they cast happened to be hot and magnetic, and a good actor to boot, so they expanded the role without thinking it through much. Usually that doesn't work very well, but in this case, it kind of did.

 

Hey, doesn't he deserve his own thread? I would start one, but I don't know what to call it  :-)

 

I'm guessing "Meisner:  Getting Shit Done" isn't appropriate?  ;-D  

 

I'm pretty sure NO ONE knows who is in charge of Hadrian's Wall...and everyone includes the creative team.  I wonder if they (the creative team) knows that viewers almost always realize when there is information that is being strategically/dramatically withheld and when the show has no clue.  I'm all for keeping that one piece of the puzzle from the audience until a time when it can be revealed in an effective way.  However, just treading water--and leaving the audience in the wake--until you can come up with a way to get yourself out of the mess you made is not cool....

[Darklazr]

It was my recollection that the royals had "four keys" after Renard made copies/stamps of Nick's two keys.  Either that, or someone counted the number of keys wrong.

 

While its great to have books again, and a trunk with some equipment, it still doesn't replace the countless items the van had.  i'm still amazed/angry that the writers had Juliette destroy everything.  Some of that stuff probably can never be replaced (like that huge gun Monroe used in S1 on one wesen), not to mention all the potions and other assorted objects.

.

 

Marie gave Nick her key and he acquired the second one from Josh's father in season 4 and Renard said the Royal's had four keys.

[OtterMommy]

Marie gave Nick her key and he acquired the second one from Josh's father in season 4 and Renard said the Royal's had four keys.

 

Right...there is the confusion.  Before this episode, we were told that there were 7 keys and we knew the location of 6 of them.  3 more keys showed up, which brings the total to 9--so either there were 9 keys OR an explanation needs to be made.  And, having 9 keys doesn't work--not only does that not match up with the 7, um, Grimm families or was it the 7 royal houses?  I can't remember exactly how that mythology was explained.  Also because if Nick has 5 keys, 5 out of 9 keys is most likely not enough of the map for Nick or Monroe to find whatever they are looking for.

Edited February 22, 2016 by OtterMommy

[Darklazr]

The elephant gun was not damaged in the fire, because there was a scene with Monroe checking it out and Hank's comment about the man saving his life.

 

What happened to the police mole?!

[Darklazr]

The writers are going to have to fix the key issue--most likely by somehow bringing the royals back up.  I mean, they obviously screwed up, either by forgetting that the Royals had 4 keys or realizing that, while Nick and Monroe don't need all 7 keys to put the map together, they do need more than 3 (5 should be enough, providing that they are the "right" 5 keys and, since this is TV, we know they will be).  My guess is that we'll get a throw away line sometime about how "valuables" were stolen from the Royals...blah blah blah.

 

Speaking of the writers screwing up, I don't think they realized what an impact burning the trailer would be.  I really don't think they expected people to hate Juliette *that much* for it.  And, really, what was the point?  Not having the trailer has not played any part in the show and, now, it doesn't even matter as they have a new set of everything. 

 

For me, I liked that Marie turned over the trailer to newbie Grimm Nick and loved the scenes with Kelly where she talked about the Kessler Grimm's and their families history.  Nick going into the trailer each time gave viewers a chance to see the various books, weapons and potions that had been handed down from his family, plus I get so annoyed now that the Spice Shop is the be all and end all of whatever "Grimm book" research versus using Marie's trailer.  

[Darklazr]

Right...there is the confusion.  Before this episode, we were told that there were 7 keys and we knew the location of 6 of them.  3 more keys showed up, which brings the total to 9--so either there were 9 keys OR an explanation needs to be made.  And, having 9 keys doesn't work--not only does that not match up with the 7, um, Grimm families or was it the 7 royal houses?  I can't remember exactly how that mythology was explained.  Also because if Nick has 5 keys, 5 out of 9 keys is most likely not enough of the map for Nick or Monroe to find whatever they are looking for.

 

Seven keys for the seven Grimms that went on the Crusades.  However, I wonder if maybe the Royal's have fake keys and maybe they don't know it?!  Think about it.  The Royal's have no idea if their four keys are correct and could very well be fakes.  Eh.  The writers probably forgot that there were seven keys!   Maybe the new keys are ones that the Royal's had no idea existed for the treasure, because the Grimm's never told them that part of the adventure?

[iMonrey]

It doesn't make much sense for Nick to keep what remains of his Grimm collection, much less the keys, in the spice shop. We know at this point Black Claw has identified Monroe as Nick's friend, and has already tried to kill him for it. Surely they know about the spice shop. The shop is a powder keg waiting to go off. Didn't Black Claw already destroy and vandalize a whole bunch of Wesen-run businesses because the Wesen who ran them refused to join Black Claw or were otherwise undesirable? What's to prevent the spice shop from suffering the same fate?

 

Bottom line, Nick needs a new hiding spot.

[Darklazr]

Yes, Nick needs a new hiding place for the Grimm books, weapons and potions, and he needs to STOP allowing every Tom, Dick and Trubel access to that information.  Grrrrr.  Kelly told Nick to treat the trailer with RESPECT and this idiot allows everyone access and Wu eats food while looking at books.  

 

I have to laugh at how Renard went from being all frenzied about having a Grimm with a key working for him in 2011 and in 2016 the man never even mentions the keys or Nick being a Grimm.

[tpel]

I'm guessing "Meisner:  Getting Shit Done" isn't appropriate?  ;-D

 

 

Anyone know how to say that in German? :-)

 

It doesn't make much sense for Nick to keep what remains of his Grimm collection, much less the keys, in the spice shop.

 

 

At least he's not keeping them in his desk at work any more. Seriously, Nick is the worst hider-of-important-things ever!

 

Honestly, I can't get too worked up over a discrepancy in the number of keys. I'm just glad the writers remembered that there were keys out there at all!

[OtterMommy]

Bottom line, Nick needs a new hiding spot.

 

Nick should not be in charge of hiding anything...ever.  The only time he successfully hid anything was when he gave Rosalee the keys to hide and HE didn't know exactly where they were.  Think about it:

1 - The trailer...he hides it in a busy storage facility at first.  He then moves it to the middle of the forest (but it has an electric hook-up!) but, when the Juliette situation develops, he not only doesn't move it, he doesn't bother to change the locks (not that a lock would stop a hexenbiest, but still!)

2 - The key...in his UNLOCKED desk drawer (Yes, it is a "police station" but his desk is right there...and people of questionable repute come in and out all day...and his desk is right there in the open--he doesn't even have a cubicle!)

3 - The engagement ring...in his sock drawer.  Oh, and his intended is the one who puts the laundry away.

4 - His super secret lair that no one can find--except Trubel.  And Meisner.  And the people he invited over for dinner.

Edited February 22, 2016 by OtterMommy

[OtterMommy]

Honestly, I can't get too worked up over a discrepancy in the number of keys. I'm just glad the writers remembered that there were keys out there at all!

 

I'm more amused by the keys than anything.  As I said, it can all be cleared up with a throw away line about the Royals being robbed.

For me, I liked that Marie turned over the trailer to newbie Grimm Nick and loved the scenes with Kelly where she talked about the Kessler Grimm's and their families history.  Nick going into the trailer each time gave viewers a chance to see the various books, weapons and potions that had been handed down from his family, plus I get so annoyed now that the Spice Shop is the be all and end all of whatever "Grimm book" research versus using Marie's trailer.  

 

I think a lot of people felt that way.  That was the problem...the creative team never realized how much the *viewers* valued the trailer.  And then they torched it (really!) for what ended up being no reason at all--leaving a character that is probably despised more than *they* want her to be.  Major screw up on their part--and yet another sign that they don't know and/or respect their audience.

[theatremouse]

So if Meisner had to "break" Juilette to turn her into Eve, why is he looking to her for direction?  Is Eve in charge?

 Someone remind me, did they use the phrase "break" in the episode or is that just interpretation going on here? All I recall is (during the "it's chicken" scene a couple weeks ago) Eve referring to what "Meisner did" to her. I think we still have no idea what that was.

 

Before this episode, we were told that there were 7 keys and we knew the location of 6 of them. 3 more keys showed up, which brings the total to 9--so either there were 9 keys OR an explanation needs to be made. And, having 9 keys doesn't work--not only does that not match up with the 7, um, Grimm families or was it the 7 royal houses? I can't remember exactly how that mythology was explained. Also because if Nick has 5 keys, 5 out of 9 keys is most likely not enough of the map for Nick or Monroe to find whatever they are looking for.

Didn't someone say the royals had 4, two of which were copies of the 2 Nick had?

So Nick has 2 real keys.

Royals have 2 real keys, and two copies of the keys Nick has.

Leaves three real keys to be found in secret compartment?

Edited February 23, 2016 by theatremouse

[Darklazr]

If I remember correctly, Renard said the Royals had four keys and it took them 100 or 300 years to get their last key and now they wanted Marie's key that she gave to Nick.  

 

Nick has 2 keys.

 

Nick now has 3 new keys?  Meh.  Whatever.  I hope the continuity person on the writers staff is keeping track of the keys!

 

I miss the trailer.  I miss seeing Nick in Grimm mode going to the trailer and pouring over the various books.  I am furious that the secret compartment that Kelly showed Nick with the diary page discussing the keys is gone.  The writers really made a dumb move burning up the shows major prop.

[OtterMommy]

 Someone remind me, did they use the phrase "break" in the episode or is that just interpretation going on here? All I recall is (during the "it's chicken" scene a couple weeks ago) Eve referring to what "Meisner did" to here. I think we still have no idea what that was.

 

Didn't someone say the royals had 4, two of which were copies of the 2 Nick had?

So Nick has 2 real keys.

Royals have 2 real keys, and two copies of the keys Nick has.

Leaves three real keys to be found in secret compartment?

 

Re: The whole "breaking" thing.  I didn't watch a few episodes in there, so I don't know if that is how it was said in the show.  However. the show's social media accounts were pushing an interview with Bitsie Tulloch *very* heavily in which she said Juliette had been beaten until she was broken.

 

As for the keys...I don't remember them saying that two of the keys the royals had were copies, but i could be wrong (and I'm not motivated to go watch a season or two to find out).

[TVSpectator]

Anyone know how to say that in German? :-)

 

http://www.bing.com/search?FORM=UP97DF&PC=UP97&q=translate

[Actionmage]

Got to finally watch the episode. ( Was celebrating my 50th! It was fun. )

 

I love Rick Overton, so him being Uncle Felix warmed my heart and I instantly forgot what I briefly read here. *sigh* Waste another fine actor that didn't have to be on all the time, but could have been a wonderful addition to the show's universe. I want to know why Monroe's mom doesn't have an accent but Uncle Felix does. If they aren't blood-family, who is he to Monroe's mom? Close enough to drop the tidbit about her son and his friend, the Grimm. Anywoo, Like the awesome Kate Burton, Mr. Overton, you didn't shine long, but you shone oh-so-brightly. Your Uncle Felix will be missed.

 

The  grand opening of the Fortress of Dull: I may have missed them, but did either Hank or Wu do a double take at Adalind making effing cookies?! I can see Adalind doing so, but seriously intending for either of those men to eat one is a bit rich. As others have stated, if there was any ground-laying that Adalind is back to her hex-y ways, I could even giggle a bit over that as a sly character thing. But, to borrow from Once Upon a Time, this is being played as the scary lasagna bit ( The Evil Queen had made lasagna for a town party, folks didn't trust it, she got sniffly and put out)-- Adalind is playing like Suzy Homemaker and being serious about her food. *sighs*

 

Hey, Teresa? If you aren't for sure if you'll get answers you'll like, don't ask the questions. I get why Teresa did ask, but going that extra one- the 'you'd help me' one- was ill-advised. Especially if Teresa hadn't worked with Eve before, really.  Still, I like that she a) is valued* and b) still does as she chooses.  *I dislike that Teresa is seemingly valued as simply a weapon in Hadrian's Wall's arsenal. I dislike that that is how Juliet/Eve is valued. We haven't ever heard any male, and certainly not Meisner, valued only for being a weapon. Now, Meisner may think that about himself, but I do not believe that he or any other male of Hadrian's Wall's employ has been referred  to in that way. Something that could be remedied if there were more to Hadrian's Wall than Meisner, Eve, Teresa and poor dead Agent Chavez.

 

I'm waiting patiently for Renard's tortoise of a storyline to catch-up to everyone else. Maybe he can drag the "lost boys" ( and girl!) along too? Also, maybe his mom and Adalind's mom? (If she's good enough to bring up to facilitate domestic "intimacy", she can rejoin everyone else. Maybe Hadrian's Wall also "broke" Catherine and she'll come back as a red-head too! Oh! Sean also needs to bring back Dr. Harper the M.E. and Majik the cat. Just sayin'.)

 

I was appalled at how rude, not cautious, Nick was. He was insta-suspicious of Monroe's uncle; why? The uncle contacted Monroe only because of the books. Yes, we in the audience know that and Nick didn't, but when has Monroe's family tried anything murderous towards Nick after the initial meeting ( and that was due to Monroe not giving his family a heads up.) Then to ask Teresa along... for back-up? Granted, Aunt Marie could have wrestled an angel and possibly win, but Nick never had met this guy who was described as a bookish sort. Did Nick get some inkling somewhere that Monroe would allow Nick to be hurt in his own home? Did I miss an episode? Is there some reason to believe that Monroe's uncle would be able to overpower two wesen and a Grimm? I roll my eyes at you, Show. Plus? When has it ever been considered good manners to lunge at your hosts' family members? Yes, Uncle Felix woged and was aggressive, but you know, Teresa, that the man has obviously been on the run for 24 hours- since the murder of his friend! Ease the eff up and be a grown-up.

 

Gee, it also looked like some intern found our complaints about how BS-y the 'we're running out of stories" line was. It looked like Pacific cultures and Indian (sub-continent) was also a part of Grimm's world!  Too bad it wasn't until Season 5 when these stories were found.

 

"Did you kill him?" There's that winning personality from Nick. The Hippie Grimm that is so different. Yes, I can understand how Nick would be suspicious, yet how is shutting down the man who contacted you- when he didn't have to do a damn thing- helping you or these books' preservation? Honey/vinegar, Nick. As for $100k? Uncle Felix is working for the dead man's family, through his now-dead friend. Would you want someone to screw over your family just because you died?  (While I appreciate that there was work and the going-to-Meisner for cash, there really seemed to be a lot of non-urgency outside of Felix.)

 

About that riot that was mentioned: was it just Roman and Latin folks or was it really wesen, the historic personages who did all the rioting all the time throughout every time period, as per Monroe earlier in this season?

 

Last we saw, as of S4 finale, Nick had Aunt Marie's key and Rolek Porter's key (Josh's dad). (BTW, Sean, while you're filling up the Wish-ebago, bring Josh along too. Teresa seemed to feel lighter and less closed off with him.) Renard said that the Royal families had four. I am pretty sure nothing was said, in-show- about fake keys anywhere.  Then again, I am okay if fakes were swapped in. That's what fuchsbau and the mice wesen are for at times, right? *g*

 

It was okay, but man. The old hem's stitches were really obvious. The show really, really, really wants us to buy into Nadalind so very hard, no matter what kind of messed up  message that sends. I am glad that there are Grimm logs and an awesome crossbow again. They never should have left. I almost wanted a football-style "break!" when Hank, Wu, Monroe and Nick broke to handle the various parts of the case.

 

The nighttime city shot was nice. I personally enjoy scenes like that.  I still would love to live in Monroe and Rosalee's house.  I am curious about what's behind the Big Yellow Door.  I lived in Germany ( but closer to France) for a couple of years in the early 90s, so I am looking forward to next week for a couple of reasons.

 

And for those who don't want to mess around with links:

Meisner: Immer Scheiße gemacht/ Meisner: Getting Shit Done

Edited February 23, 2016 by Actionmage

[OtterMommy]

Got to finally watch the episode. ( Was celebrating my 50th! It was fun. )

 

Happy birthday!

 

So I skipped the whole dinner party scene because, you know...did she really make cookies????  If so, that is almost a good sign...perhaps a hint of things to come?  I'd like to think that the writers are clever enough to plant little Easter eggs like that.  But, hey, I'd just be happy if they remembered season 1.  (But, if they are being clever...that's support for my mind control theory!)

 

Re: Renard...well, I'm all for him bringing his mother along, but I'm pretty sure the ship has sailed for Adalind's.  She's been dead since season 2 and her corpse was mutilated, distilled, and consumed in season 4!

 

i also agree about the money and Uncle Felix.  In the world of rare books, $100K is a steal for 20 rare books.  Plus, I don't think Felix wanted the money to make a profit--I think that was money he wanted so he could escape whoever was after him.  I really kind of feel that this show has never really painted Nick in a good light.  I mean, the bumbling newbie was fine in season 1, but then he just sort of became a dick.  Well, maybe not a dick--but he definitely has his dickish moments.

Edited February 23, 2016 by OtterMommy

[tpel]

And for those who don't want to mess around with links:

Meisner: Immer Scheiße gemacht/ Meisner: Getting Shit Done

 

 

Are we sure this accurately translates the idiomatic meaning, rather than the literal meaning? Want to get across his badass competence, not reference actual defecation . . .

 

Hey, Teresa? If you aren't for sure if you'll get answers you'll like, don't ask the questions. I get why Teresa did ask, but going that extra one- the 'you'd help me' one- was ill-advised. Especially if Teresa hadn't worked with Eve before, really.

 

 

The scene where Trubel talks to Eve was one of my favorites, because it reminded me of the really nice interactions that used to take place between Juliette and Trubel. Everybody else's reactions to Eve seem somehow forced -- just incredulously repeating that she's dead, or not dead, or a different person, or whatever. But Trubel reached out to see if there was anything left of the woman who had been kind to her. That struck me as sweet.

Edited February 23, 2016 by tpel

[orza]

Are we sure this accurately translates the idiomatic meaning, rather than the literal meaning? Want to get across his badass competence, not reference actual defecation . . .

That translation is not even close. It would be understood to mean something like "always screws up". "Scheiße machen" (or bauen) means colloquially to make a mess of things or screw up, etc.