S04.E13: Sins Of The Father

[KirkB]

I think the show missed an opportunity to take care of Thea's bloodlust and get rid of Malcolm at the same time. She's stuck in this tormented loop because she needs to kill the person who killed her to be cured, only she can't because he's dead already. But there is, or was, a way around that. Given everything he has done to her and to her family, dad or not, Thea has every reason to want Malcolm dead. If she had killed Malcolm once and for all she would, technically, still be killing Ra's al Ghul and the mystical what's it of the Lazarus Pit could be satisfied. Plus, Thea would get to be her own damn hero for once.

[Carrie Ann]

God, yes, exactly. Let's not encourage Thea's burgeoning relationship with an abusive manipulator who ruined her life.

 

And I bet DD's daughter loves him too. Doesn't mean he shouldn't die.

 

Again, Oliver is probably not the person who should have to kill Malcolm. But there's a difference between Oliver being the one to do the deed and letting it happen, and he really needs to do the latter, the next time the opportunity should arise.

[dtissagirl]

It drives me nuts how gross this is. Malcolm has been gaslighting Thea on the regular since late season two, and on top of it Oliver thinks that's a relationship everyone else should respect. Yuck.

[tv echo]

And I guess Nyssa wasn't in fighting shape since she hadn't really been training and eating right. It's why she asked for another way with Katana and why she wanted Oliver to fight her battle.  But once there was no other option she didn't want to look like a coward to the league. Or that's KL's take. 

 

Hmm... that's interesting.  A weakened Nyssa is able to hold her own with Tatsu/Katana ("we're too evenly matched") but not beat her. So I guess that means Oliver could beat Katana in one-on-one combat.  In summary, Oliver is now able to defeat old Ra's, Malcolm (new Ra's), Nyssa and Katana - but he still can't defeat Anarky or Double Down by himself.

Edited February 12, 2016 by tv echo

[tarotx]

Well Double Down is a meta? I guess with Anarky, he's a cray cray who Oliver was kind of focused originally on Thea's bloodlust and then with Felicity in the hospital?

 

I do get you though but that was Just KL's (check her social media) reasoning on why her character didn't take on MM. 

[tv echo]

Double Down's meta ability involved peeling cards off his skin and shooting them at people.  Oliver has been shown to be fast enough to use his bow (or sword) to deflect arrows shot at him by Darhk (and Malcolm), so he should've been fast enough to deflect flying cards.  League assassins have to fight all kinds of people, so Oliver should've handily defeated Anarky.  It's just all for plot reasons.

 

I originally thought it was because Oliver was trying not to kill.  But he easily beat Malcolm (and Nyssa before) without killing them.

 

Oh well, trying to apply logic to this show is just an exercise in frustration.

[nksarmi]

You know to the best of my recollection no has ever said Thea loves Malcolm or wants him in her life since she learned what he's really all about and what he did to her.

 

And Oliver even trying to compare Robert Queen to Malcolm is gross. First off, Robert is who Thea should think of as her father. And Malcolm murdered him. Why did he murder him?  Because Robert Queen belatedly saw the light and tried to stop the madman from carrying out the Undertaking.  That makes Malcolm worse.

 

Also, the show - and Oliver - made it a point at the end of season two of telling us that Robert Queen KNEW Thea was not his daughter but he spurned the crazy CEO chick half his age to be a father to Thea (even though he knew!).  So that means Robert 100% chose to be Thea's dad. 

 

Robert may not be the greatest man who ever lived, but he kind of ranks right behind Diggle in the dad department on this show.

 

Oliver should stop comparing the man who sacrificed his life so he could live with the man who mind-raped Thea into killing her friend, put him in a position to be killed by Ra's, and ultimately set Ra's against him which got Thea stabbed, pitted, and full of blood lust to begin with.

 

And now that we have 100% established that Malcolm loves power more than anything else - can we ALL stop calling him Thea's dad?

Edited February 12, 2016 by nksarmi

[statsgirl]

So, you know, maybe Thea calling him "dad" has a little something to do with HER headspace being constantly fucked up by a manipulative evil guy who gets off on telling her he loves her, and how much he wants the best for her... Except when the best for Thea jeopardizes his plans for world domination.

And then her dumbass brother encourages it on top of it because plot. Poor Thea.

She wasn't even given the opportunity to hear that Malcolm picked running the League over saving her life. That's gotta change a girl's opinion of her dad.

 

I think the show missed an opportunity to take care of Thea's bloodlust and get rid of Malcolm at the same time. She's stuck in this tormented loop because she needs to kill the person who killed her to be cured, only she can't because he's dead already. But there is, or was, a way around that. Given everything he has done to her and to her family, dad or not, Thea has every reason to want Malcolm dead. If she had killed Malcolm once and for all she would, technically, still be killing Ra's al Ghul and the mystical what's it of the Lazarus Pit could be satisfied. Plus, Thea would get to be her own damn hero for once.

And, as Robert Dougherty said in his review,

 

t probably is too much to ask for that such a battle would end with Thea killing him, then being cured and then struggling with the blood on her hands even with the bloodlust gone -- giving her a real crucible to bear throughout the rest of the season that doesn't involve supernatural murder skills.

What would make it even more effective is that Thea has always resisted killing to get rid of the bloodlust, imagine the self-hate for killing her own dad even though he did this to her.

 

This show really needs to step back on the supernatural front and everything about the male villains and go back to good storytelling.

Edited February 12, 2016 by statsgirl

[arjumand]

Oliver should stop comparing the man who sacrificed his life so he could live with the man who mind-raped Thea into killing her friend, put him in a position to be killed by Ra's, and ultimately set Ra's against him which got Thea stabbed, pitted, and full of blood lust to begin with.

 

And now that we have 100% established that Malcolm loves power more than anything else - can we ALL stop calling him Thea's dad?

 

That is what I want, and I have wanted since the 'Malcolm is Thea's dad' reveal. I have so desired (coming over all Galadriel for a moment) to hear Oliver, ANYONE, say "Your dad is the man who took care of you, clothed, fed, loved you all your life. Not the man who threatened your life before he knew you were his daughter, and who then proceeded to brainwash you into murdering a friend."

 

You know why Oliver can't say it? Because then he has no justification for valuing William above every single thing in his life, including his relationship with Felicity. At this point, we are at the 'biological bonds trump all bonds' stage. And yes, I get that he's being written that way - but ultimately, what's on the screen is what we have to accept.

 

 

This show really needs to step back on the supernatural front and everything about the male villains and go back to good storytelling.

 

I guess you've been fast-forwarding through the flashbacks (I can't because I'm writing an AU and I need to see what whacked out stuff they're coming up with)? Because last week a hallucination of Shado gave Oliver a rock in a dream, which he still had when he woke up. A magic rock, if you will. And it's real - other people can see it and touch it. No, really. No, REALLY. A magic fucking rock. So it's safe to say that the supernatural bullshit is not going away any time soon.

[kismet]

I think the show missed an opportunity to take care of Thea's bloodlust and get rid of Malcolm at the same time. She's stuck in this tormented loop because she needs to kill the person who killed her to be cured, only she can't because he's dead already. But there is, or was, a way around that. Given everything he has done to her and to her family, dad or not, Thea has every reason to want Malcolm dead. If she had killed Malcolm once and for all she would, technically, still be killing Ra's al Ghul and the mystical what's it of the Lazarus Pit could be satisfied. Plus, Thea would get to be her own damn hero for once.

That would have been perfection in some ways. But it also would have been good considering that MM is the reason she is a killer in the first place, it would have completed the circle. The original Ras would have likely not killed TQ, if MM had not put her in his crosshairs in the first place. MM really did set all of this in motion.

 

I wonder if they might have TQ in the future threaten/vow to kill her "Dad" (or at least be part of the mission to take him down). Then again I see MM dying a tragic death that is partially the result of Queens' actions, but in the end not their fault. In most stories, the child is rarely actually responsible for the evil parent's death. They might be present at it, a fight between them might have lead to it, but the actual death occurs because of an accident or the villain choosing to end it.

[bijoux]

That is what I want, and I have wanted since the 'Malcolm is Thea's dad' reveal. I have so desired (coming over all Galadriel for a moment) to hear Oliver, ANYONE, say "Your dad is the man who took care of you, clothed, fed, loved you all your life. Not the man who threatened your life before he knew you were his daughter, and who then proceeded to brainwash you into murdering a friend."

To be fair, he actually did say most of that in S2 when Thea found out about Malcolm and was ranting about being the daughter of two murderers. Oliver explicitly pointed out that Robert was her dad. Good old days.

Edited February 13, 2016 by bijoux

[bmjax]

Loved Laurel! I really enjoyed how she refused to let Nyssa off the hook. She has every reason to want MM dead but I really loved that the team, Oliver and The a came first.

Felicity and Oliver continued to be just perfect together. Loved Felicity and her mom. Their interactions feel so authentic and real to me.

Sigh. I know MM is evil, awful and terrible but I just love JB. Maybe he can reform and help out on LOT.

[nksarmi]

To be fair, he actually did say most of that in S2 when Thea found out about Malcolm and was ranting about being the daughter of two murderers. Oliver explocitly pointed out that Robert was her dad. Good old days.

 

Right!  So can we all agree that Malcolm must have put a chip in Oliver's head somewhere off camera around the beginning of season three?

Loved Laurel! I really enjoyed how she refused to let Nyssa off the hook. She has every reason to want MM dead but I really loved that the team, Oliver and The a came first.

Felicity and Oliver continued to be just perfect together. Loved Felicity and her mom. Their interactions feel so authentic and real to me.

Sigh. I know MM is evil, awful and terrible but I just love JB. Maybe he can reform and help out on LOT.

 

Oh hell no!  I love LOT and I hope with all that I am that if Malcolm came anywhere near Sara while she was in her right mind that Sara would put him in the ground.  Or if he actually successfully fought her (which would be all kinds of BS as far as I'm concerned) - well she's god a winged demi-goddess, a couple of lovable villains, a man who can absorb the energy of a nuke and live, and a guy who can shrink down and pop a few blood vessels in his brain to get her back.  And since MM reconstituted Savage - Rip might even be willing to help take him down. 

 

If JB must be on any of these damn shows - we need an Earth 2 version stat because I just can't even with MM anymore.

Edited February 13, 2016 by nksarmi

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!
 

Arrow Gets Generational
The fathers on this show have not, on the whole, done a great job.

[kismet]

Was catching up on LoT recent episode, and I've got to admit, I'm a little bummed the show didn't keep a little bit of the lotus elixir to help out SL. Or at least FS could have used science to help break down the formula, just in case for future problems.

 

I know the bloodlust is supposed to be different between TQ & SL. But I think it was a little short-sighted of them to just stop the infusion and let so much of it fall on the ground. That was not the proper way to stop an infusion of that magnitude.

[johntfs]

 

And now that we have 100% established that Malcolm loves power more than anything else - can we ALL stop calling him Thea's dad?

 

I don't think we've really established that all.  Recalling Malcolm's reaction to being dethroned (and dehanded) he was bitter and unhappy, but somewhat accepting.  He seemed genuinely horrified, however, when Nyssa disbanded the League.

 

To me, Malcolm has never been about power except in the pursuit of justice.  A twisted justice, but still a kind of justice.  Even at the end of the last episode, he didn't murder William and put his head on Oliver's doorstep, he simply placed Oliver in the same position that he'd been in as a kind of justice.

 

The League's goals were summed in the statement "We replace evil with death."  They hunted Malcolm because his earthquake plot committed mass, indiscriminate murder*.  Much of the conflict between Team Arrow and the League came from Oliver shielding Malcolm from them, which led to Ra's desire to be replaced by Oliver.

 

Here's kind of a thought experiment: How would Season 1 of Arrow have gone had Oliver not been present or been present and not been the "Hood?"  The Hood was frequently a murderous figure who killed his opponents, much like the League did.  Would Star City have been better or worse off if Oliver had been on the Island for six years instead of five.

 

Another thought, assuming that Nyssa's feelings about disbanding the League were fairly longstanding, suppose she'd inherited the League's leadership and then disbanded it in episode 2.13 instead of 4.13.  That would likely mean that Star City would be a burned out wasteland thanks to the Mirakura soldiers and Amanda Waller.  How many other times has the League prevented horrors by replacing evil with death?  What new or ancient threats will arise due to their absence? 

 

* Yes, the League apparently planned to destroy Star City, but that whole situation seemed to me to be set up to force Oliver to confront Ra's in a battle to the death that would force Oliver to become the new Ra's.

Edited February 13, 2016 by johntfs

[bijoux]

Here's kind of a thought experiment: How would Season 1 of Arrow have gone had Oliver not been present or been present and not been the "Hood?"  The Hood was frequently a murderous figure who killed his opponents, much like the League did.  Would Star City have been better or worse off if Oliver had been on the Island for six years instead of five.

 

I feel pretty certain that with two earthquake machines and no warning to the general populace, the victim count would have at least doubled, although that's a very conservative estimate.

[BkWurm1]

And Oliver even trying to compare Robert Queen to Malcolm is gross. First off, Robert is who Thea should think of as her father. And Malcolm murdered him. Why did he murder him?  Because Robert Queen belatedly saw the light and tried to stop the madman from carrying out the Undertaking.  That makes Malcolm worse

 

When Oliver mentioned that his father was an bad man I was surprised but as I’ve thought about it, I’m rather glad to hear Oliver saying that.  He’s never told anyone that Robert didn’t just sacrifice his life to save Oliver but cold bloodedly murdered his employee first.  He never shares that detail and it’s always bugged me that he didn’t but now I feel like instead of rewriting history, he really does remember that part.

 

You know why Oliver can't say it? Because then he has no justification for valuing William above every single thing in his life, including his relationship with Felicity. At this point, we are at the 'biological bonds trump all bonds' stage. And yes, I get that he's being written that way - but ultimately, what's on the screen is what we have to accept.

 

I don’t know what’s in Oliver’s head but he shouldn’t see his and Malcolm’s role as the same.  Thea was an adult.  She didn’t need Malcolm like a kid depends on his parents.

 

I’m ok with Oliver being said to most value William even if he hardly knows him because William is an innocent child and deserves to have his parents put him first even if one parent only just found out (I’d go further and say all kids deserve to have adults in general put their needs ahead of theirs) 

 

That said,  I don’t think keeping William a secret from Felicity plays at all into that idea of putting William first.  The secret puts Samantha first, not William.  What Oliver owes to William is a separate issue from the secret. 

 

 

The League's goals were summed in the statement "We replace evil with death."  They hunted Malcolm because his earthquake plot committed mass, indiscriminate murder*.  Much of the conflict between Team Arrow and the League came from Oliver shielding Malcolm from them, which led to Ra's desire to be replaced by Oliver

 

The reason they hunted Malcolm was retconned not to be because he committed indiscriminate murder of innocents but because he did it without the League's permission.  By the end of season three we find out that Ra's pretty much was following through on Malcolm's plan but on an even bigger scale.  That and Ra's saying he'd spare Oliver's sister and friend's lives but actually planning on them dying eventually anywhere kind of ruined the mystic of the LoA.  It felt like they didn't abide by an honorable code after all.   It turned them from a grey society that was fighting against evil to one that was just one man's army.  I was waiting in season 3 to find out that Ra's had gone mad from too many trips to the magic hot tub, impairing his judgment to the point that it had departed from the standards of the LoA.  Instead we find out that they've always been douchebag murderers and rapists (or at least their leader was)   

[BkWurm1]

I feel pretty certain that with two earthquake machines and no warning to the general populace, the victim count would have at least doubled, although that's a very conservative estimate.

And by the time Oliver returned home, Malcolm would be knee deep into his plan to rebuild.  As long as Oliver didn't find out the truth, (I assume the original plan was to make everyone think it was a freak natural event) Oliver probably would have thought Malcolm Merlyn was a kind of savior to the city. 

 

If Slade came to town, Oliver and Malcolm probably would have ended up allies.  The LoA never would have come to Starling City (since they would also think the earthquake a natural event) and thus Malcolm would not being in their crosshairs.   Moira would be alive and a pillar of the community, yes guilty for her part in so many deaths but it was all in the past now and as long as Oliver didn't know something he shouldn't, (which means a repeat of his first kidnapping) Oliver wouldn't be a target of the Dark Archer.  Sara likely would have shown up in town around the same time as Oliver, both arriving separately.  She'd still have the same confrontation with Nyssa.  As long as Oliver found out she was alive, he would still have been there to fight Nyssa and help Sara get free of the LoA.  Would Sara have still gone to Nyssa for help?  She probably wouldn't have had to with Malcolm's resources.   I wonder if with better resources if the big showdown with the mirikuru soldier would have happened or would Ray's fiancé never have died so that Palmer Tech never comes to town. 

 

I need to stop following that thread.  It's never ending. 

[GirlvsTV]

I just got around to watching the scenes with Felicity and her Dad from this episode and I really enjoyed them. Wish there had been more to it, but hopefully we will get to see more in the future. Charlotte Ross was fantastic in her scene with Felicity and, tbh, it feels like a huge wasted opportunity to not have had a moment with her, Felicity and Noah together.

Tbh, I only watched those scenes and the ones between Felicity and Oliver - which made my dislike of his character increase even further. I will never ever believe it is in-character for him to support Malcolm in any way, especially after what he did to Thea. From the little bit I saw of that storyline, the scene between Oliver and Felicity in the Arrow Cave, having Felicity point out how terrible Malcolm is and then having Oliver still struggle over his decision is so entirely ludicrous. So that, plus the lying, is really killing any interest or emotional investment I had in his character.

[tv echo]

I’m ok with Oliver being said to most value William even if he hardly knows him because William is an innocent child and deserves to have his parents put him first even if one parent only just found out (I’d go further and say all kids deserve to have adults in general put their needs ahead of theirs) 

 

That said,  I don’t think keeping William a secret from Felicity plays at all into that idea of putting William first.  The secret puts Samantha first, not William.  What Oliver owes to William is a separate issue from the secret.

 

I agree that Oliver should make protecting William, his son and an innocent child, his top priority (with a caveat). However, that's not what Malcolm said to Darhk.  He said that William was "who Oliver Queen cares about more than anyone in the whole world".  That's what I found hard to believe, since he barely knows the boy.  I mean, I understand that there might be a visceral emotional attachment to a surprise biological child.  But this statement seemed over the top.  (We already know that when the EPs write "cares about", they're really saying "loves' -- see 2x06.)  

 

OK, my caveat:  Malcolm mentioned sacrificing his child for the greater good - which some have suggested might be a foreshadowing of the dilemma that Oliver might face: save his son or save the city/world?

[apinknightmare]

Who cares what Malcolm says, though? He wants Darhk to go after Oliver's kid, and that's the best way to get him to do it. I think the ranking system is stupid, because there are different kinds of love for different people in our lives, but even if Oliver had one, how would Malcolm know what it is? ETA: from what he's seen from Oliver, Thea should be the person he thinks Oliver loves/cares about most.

Edited February 13, 2016 by apinknightmare

[looptab]

OH, sorry I misunderstood you. The answer is also I DON'T KNOW. But probably the sucky writing? "Oliver keeps secrets" being true to his character is their out, I guess.

Makes sense. (It actually doesn't, by normal people standards, but it does by theirs). Thanks for responding :)

 

///

 

About that Donna/Felicity scene, and the whole relationship Felicity has with her father: Felicity says it's been 18 years, and previously she said she barely remembered him. So we all assumed that he left when she was very little, so when she was 9. However, Donna then tells her how she's been in Felicity's position before, that he would tell her what she wanted to hear and then she'd find herself with  "no job, no money, and a 17 years old kid who can't go to Space Camp".

So, does that imply that he had been back before, and she kept it from Felicity?

[doesntworkonwood]

Makes sense. (It actually doesn't, by normal people standards, but it does by theirs). Thanks for responding :)

 

///

 

About that Donna/Felicity scene, and the whole relationship Felicity has with her father: Felicity says it's been 18 years, and previously she said she barely remembered him. So we all assumed that he left when she was very little, so when she was 9. However, Donna then tells her how she's been in Felicity's position before, that he would tell her what she wanted to hear and then she'd find herself with  "no job, no money, and a 17 years old kid who can't go to Space Camp".

So, does that imply that he had been back before, and she kept it from Felicity?

She said 7 not 17. 

[looptab]

She said 7 not 17. 

LOL, good to know I'm deaf! Thank you.:) But I have to admit I am now a little sad because I had a whole story going on in my head about that. :(

[Delphi]

I took that as meaning is that he floated in and out of their lives periodically until finally running off when Felicity was very young. I think the space camp comment was a fill in the blank for anything that Donna needed but couldn't afford at the time, new school clothes, doctor appointments or birthday/holiday gifts and used Space Camp because it would resonate with Felicity.

[Carrie Ann]

I took that as meaning is that he floated in and out of their lives periodically until finally running off when Felicity was very young. I think the space camp comment was a fill in the blank for anything that Donna needed but couldn't afford at the time, new school clothes, doctor appointments or birthday/holiday gifts and used Space Camp because it would resonate with Felicity.

 

I think that's a nice headcanon that absolves the writers of their problems with basic math and keeping track of their characters' ages, and how they should increase by exactly 1 year every season! :) 

[nksarmi]

In my opinion, the way the LoA is presented on Arrow - they are flat out evil.  Early on, they tried to walk the "we replace evil with death" line, but that got ruined by the end of season three when we discover every new Ra's has to destroy their former life by literally destroying their former home.  That plot point nullified any bullshit about the LoA forever.  In other words, Malcolm wasn't a problem because he dispensed needless death with the Undertaking - he was a problem because he did it without permission.  Clearly, Malcolm learned his way of thinking (and Darhk most likely) from the LoA to begin with.

 

So if we want to play the "what if" game, we could argue that if there was no LoA, Malcolm would have been forced to mourn his wife in a slightly more "normal" manner and might have even ended up being there for his son.  Perhaps he would have become an advocate for a harsher stance on crime in the city or he might have ended up trying to shut down charitable works in the Glades.  But the Undertaking likely wouldn't have taken place.

 

The bottom line is that if we ignore what Malcolm says and look solely at his actions - he appears to have first wanted to control Starling City (after the Undertaking) and remake it under is command - and then later decided that he wanted to be the next Ra's.  If you view his actions as wanting to be the next Ra's - then all of his actions, from drugging Thea to kill Sara to declining the offer to trade the ring for the lotus cure, make perfect sense.  If Malcolm wants justice - it's a justice of his own design that he wants to impart on the world - which happens to also require power.  So yes, I do believe it's safe to say that all Malcolm cares about is power and control and wielding both for his own design.

 

While it's nice that Oliver recognizes that his father wasn't a "good" man - it's still gross that he can even begin to put Robert Queen and Malcolm freaking Merlin in the same boat as "not good men, but still dads all the same."  What's next Oliver?  Can't kill Darhk because he's someone's father?

Edited February 13, 2016 by nksarmi

[KirkB]

Malcolm spent years training with the League and apparently came up with the idea for the Undertaking there, and I guess he proposed the idea to Ra's but for some reason Ra's shot him down. So he asked to be released from his League contract and came back to Starling to do it himself. Years later, when Ra's wants Oliver to take over for him he basically threatens to burn the city to the ground unless he agrees. And then later, he says each new Ra's has to rid themselves of any connection to their old life by destroying their former home. So clearly the League doesn't have a problem with mass slaughter, just that for whatever reason they did not seem to like Malcolm's particular idea. Yet Ra's and Dark have similar ideas of their own. The League was hypocritical, in a very particular and twisted way. Which I guess is why Malcolm fit in so well there, it's hard to rationalize being a loving father who would do anything for the child you drug and force to kill a friend in order to have their life be threatened so their sibling will clear you of your blood debt.

[ketose]

And by the time Oliver returned home, Malcolm would be knee deep into his plan to rebuild.  As long as Oliver didn't find out the truth, (I assume the original plan was to make everyone think it was a freak natural event) Oliver probably would have thought Malcolm Merlyn was a kind of savior to the city. 

 

If Slade came to town, Oliver and Malcolm probably would have ended up allies.  The LoA never would have come to Starling City (since they would also think the earthquake a natural event) and thus Malcolm would not being in their crosshairs.   Moira would be alive and a pillar of the community, yes guilty for her part in so many deaths but it was all in the past now and as long as Oliver didn't know something he shouldn't, (which means a repeat of his first kidnapping) Oliver wouldn't be a target of the Dark Archer.  Sara likely would have shown up in town around the same time as Oliver, both arriving separately.  She'd still have the same confrontation with Nyssa.  As long as Oliver found out she was alive, he would still have been there to fight Nyssa and help Sara get free of the LoA.  Would Sara have still gone to Nyssa for help?  She probably wouldn't have had to with Malcolm's resources.   I wonder if with better resources if the big showdown with the mirikuru soldier would have happened or would Ray's fiancé never have died so that Palmer Tech never comes to town. 

 

I need to stop following that thread.  It's never ending. 

I would love to see some sort of "It's a Wonderful Life" treatment where they try to explain how things could possibly be WORSE had Oliver not come to Starling City. Except for Thea becoming a drug addict / dead, there's not much downside.

Edited February 14, 2016 by ketose

[Starfish35]

Malcolm would have had no opposition to his Undertaking, so probably thousands of people would have died in season one if Oliver had never come back.

[theacostov]

The one person that could have come closer to figuring it out is Felicity. She had the book Walter asked her to look into. When he was kidnapped she could have done some digging. Someone should fic it.

If oliver never came back Moira would also have successfully had Malcolm killed. It's so interesting to think of what ifs.

[Starfish35]

That's true - Moira's assassination attempt would have been successful. I didn't think of that.

[BunsenBurner]

I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this but is that rock that Shado gave Oliver in the flashback the hosen he gave Thea when he got back from Lian Yu in the first season? 

 

Could it be important this season or have the EPs forgotten that he did this?

[apinknightmare]

I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this but is that rock that Shado gave Oliver in the flashback the hosen he gave Thea when he got back from Lian Yu in the first season? 

 

No, it's something different.

[AyChihuahua]

I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this but is that rock that Shado gave Oliver in the flashback the hosen he gave Thea when he got back from Lian Yu in the first season? 

 

Could it be important this season or have the EPs forgotten that he did this?

Shado did have it, it had the coordinates of the Japanese sub. But it's not the rock.

[statsgirl]

Have we seen that rock before?

 

I can handwave a lot of things on this show, but a hallucination that ends up with a solid object pulled from nowhere is past my limit.

 

 

That said,  I don’t think keeping William a secret from Felicity plays at all into that idea of putting William first.  The secret puts Samantha first, not William.  What Oliver owes to William is a separate issue from the secret. 

 

Because if Oliver had put William first, he would most certainly not be running back and forth to Central City to visit him when a madman is after his nearest and dearest and just put his fiance in a wheelchair.

 

The reason they hunted Malcolm was retconned not to be because he committed indiscriminate murder of innocents but because he did it without the League's permission.  By the end of season three we find out that Ra's pretty much was following through on Malcolm's plan but on an even bigger scale.  That and Ra's saying he'd spare Oliver's sister and friend's lives but actually planning on them dying eventually anywhere kind of ruined the mystic of the LoA.  It felt like they didn't abide by an honorable code after all.   It turned them from a grey society that was fighting against evil to one that was just one man's army.  I was waiting in season 3 to find out that Ra's had gone mad from too many trips to the magic hot tub, impairing his judgment to the point that it had departed from the standards of the LoA.  Instead we find out that they've always been douchebag murderers and rapists (or at least their leader was)

Another example of how the show twists itself into knots in order to keep John Barrowman around.

 

I don't think we've really established that all.  Recalling Malcolm's reaction to being dethroned (and dehanded) he was bitter and unhappy, but somewhat accepting.  He seemed genuinely horrified, however, when Nyssa disbanded the League.

 

To me, Malcolm has never been about power except in the pursuit of justice.  A twisted justice, but still a kind of justice.  Even at the end of the last episode, he didn't murder William and put his head on Oliver's doorstep, he simply placed Oliver in the same position that he'd been in as a kind of justice.

Certainly Malcolm was horrified at Nyssa disbanding the League.  That was the source of his power since while he was rich, he was still wanted in Star City for murdering 504 + people.

 

I don't understand how this would put Oliver in the same place as Malcolm himself.  The reason Thea was suffering from the bloodlust was a direct consequence of Malcolm's actions in having her kill Sara, not because of what Oliver had done.  Oliver was just trying to fix what Malcolm had wrought.

 

As for whether Malcolm like power for its own sake, I think he actions with Tommy speak to that.  Malcolm didn't like how Tommy was living his life, and instead of talking to Tommy and helping to straighten him out, he cut him off completely, both financially and emotionally.  That was a pure exercise of power, as was brainwahsing Thea to kill Sara. There was nothing to do with justice in those actions.

Edited February 14, 2016 by statsgirl

[johntfs]

Certainly Malcolm was horrified at Nyssa disbanding the League.  That was the source of his power since while he was rich, he was still wanted in Star City for murdering 504 + people.

 

I don't understand how this would put Oliver in the same place as Malcolm himself.  The reason Thea was suffering from the bloodlust was a direct consequence of Malcolm's actions in having her kill Sara, not because of what Oliver had done.  Oliver was just trying to fix what Malcolm had wrought.

 

As for whether Malcolm like power for its own sake, I think he actions with Tommy speak to that.  Malcolm didn't like how Tommy was living his life, and instead of talking to Tommy and helping to straighten him out, he cut him off completely, both financially and emotionally.  That was a pure exercise of power, as was brainwahsing Thea to kill Sara. There was nothing to do with justice in those actions.

 

Presumably Malcolm talked to Tommy before and Tommy likely pretended to listen, made some half-hearted effort and then went back to being a playboy.  So, Malcolm cut him off and pushed him to grow the fuck up at long last.  And it kind of worked.

 

With Thea and William, their lives were/are in the hands of an enemy who will force Malcolm/Oliver to choose between their mission and their child's life.

 

Prior to the LoA disband, Malcolm was already in the worst of possible positions.  His enemy, Nyssa, was in charge of the League.  She could decide at any time to have him killed or imprisoned.  Malcolm wasn't horrified then.  When she disbanded the League, he was horrified.  Like, "My daddy built Hoover Dam.  I hate my Daddy, so I blew up Hoover Dam."

 

It's pretty clear that as Ra' al Ghul, Malcolm had access to a whole lot of secret information.  He's likely privy to all kinds of situations where the disappearance of the League will have a disastrous effect.  Maybe in Season 5 we'll get a scene like:

 

Oliver: "Why is Great Cthulhu rampaging through Starling City?!"

Malcolm: "Because thanks to you, the League no longer exists, so they weren't hunting his cultists and prevent them from summoning him here.  Dumbass."

[bijoux]

It's pretty clear that as Ra' al Ghul, Malcolm had access to a whole lot of secret information.  

 

Malcolm Merlyn, the Ultimate Yenta.

[paigow]

Certainly Malcolm was horrified at Nyssa disbanding the League....  

He was upset that the indentured population of Nanda Parbat - making LoA candles, ornate furniture and textiles - would become "unemployed". However, they could all be relocated to Star City via wormhole, where incorporating electricity into the manufacturing process would increase productivity at least 100x. 

[kismet]

MM is probably just pissed because he wasn't able to tape his homage Flash Mob to "Kung Fu Fighting" - he had just finished up the choreography and everything!!! :)  And now even if he wants to film it solo, he can't even do jazz hands anymore. :(

 

It's darhnk days ahead for MM formerly known as Ras formerly known as the Dark Archer. Perhaps he can just become a Symbol for a little bit to ease his pain.

[paigow]

[nksarmi]

Oh yea the world will suffer without the likes of Malcolm and LoA to set things right.  Like when he reconstituted Vandal Savage so he could go on and take over the world and destroy everything around him.  Clearly, Rip Hunter and the team he assembled to stop Vandal are the villains of the Flarrowverse - it all makes sense now!!!!

 

I know Laurel isn't all the popular around these parts - but I do think her encouraging Nyssa to be free from her evil father's bonds and Nyssa's subsequent disbanding of the League is supposed to be seen as a good thing.  I mean - honestly - what have we ever seen the League do that was good outside of Nyssa's orders?

Edited February 14, 2016 by nksarmi

[quarks]

The League of Assassins are very good decorators who keep the candle makers of the world in business. I see that as a net positive.

 

On a related note, did Nyssa think even once about the effect this would have on the Piers One stock price? No, no she did not. Oh, character of Arrow, never once looking at the big picture. It's very sad.

[ketose]

If anyone is watching The Flash,

Oliver died on Earth 2 and Robert Queen became the Arrow.

I wonder if the alternate Starling City did any better.

[bijoux]

Can Oliver please learn math?

 

 

Because there is no way Malcolm would have been back from NP, having skeddadled there after his thryst with Moira in time to meet Thea at four months old. Be kind to me, writers, and make it so Malcolm is actually making false memories which he buys into. If it wasn't for Slade's Shado hallucinations, I'd be all for him starting to hallucinate dead people. Starting with Rebecca and working on towards Robert and Tommy.

[tarotx]

MM could have been back in Starling for a spell and Tommy still being right. Gone for a year, back for a spell and then gone again for almost a year. It still fits. Plus MM leaving again after seeing Thea and her questioning birthday. But creating memories to serve his purpose also seems up MM's alley. 

Edited February 14, 2016 by tarotx

[bijoux]

I would debunk you on the grounds of the League not letting new recruits leave on furlough were it not for Al-Sahim popping over to Central City last season. Lord, please, let Nyssa disbanding them be the end of this madness.

[kismet]

Just read up on Tommy on Wikia to help figure out the math. http://arrow.wikia.com/wiki/Tommy_Merlyn

 

Appears according to them the affair happened before he vanished. So perhaps he was just visiting during his LoA training. Perhaps a test of Ras to see if he had detached himself from his former life.

 

In Tommy's mind he would have still been gone for 2 years, because he probably wouldn't count those few visits as special.

 

But who knows? Math & Plot consistency (esp of pre-show events) are not these writers' strengths.

Edited February 14, 2016 by kismet

[bijoux]

Honestly, I'm rather fond of my Malcolm is getting battier by the minute head canon.