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kariyaki

S03.E02: XX

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The Walrus crew is threatened by the elements; Teach and Rackham have a disagreement; Rogers and Eleanor set terms for their partnership; Bonny worries about her future with Max.

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Yeah, not spoiling it either but that storm, man... that storm !!!

 

And that's just the peak of the iceberg ! There's so much more ! Looking forward to see more reactions tomorrow !

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Ooooooh, the return of Miranda Barlow as a portent of doom in Flint's dreams.  Love it!  The storm was exciting.  Silver's scene with the guy who drowned was heart-breaking.  I'm sorry to lose that cast member.  I was so glad when he survived the fight with Flint's crew in last season's finale.

 

The politics back on Nassau island are less compelling to me.  The machinations of the Madam (I can't remember her name right now) and the way she plays Jack and Anne is completely uninteresting to me. I get bored whenever she starts talking.

 

I'm annoyed at Jack for agreeing to move the gold and NOT tell Flint and Vane.  That is a recipe for disaster and I thought Jack was smarter than that.

 

First a storm, now they're becalmed.  Damn, that crew can't catch a break, can they?

 

So last week I wondered who it was Eleanor named as the one pirate who could not be pardoned.  It was Vane, after all, just like they hinted.  Okay.  That being the case, I don't see the point in their NOT having shown us who she named last week, but whatever.

 

In closing may I just say that Billy's arms are a thing of beauty and the shot of him clinging to that sail cross-bar is simply awe-inspring.

Edited by WatchrTina
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The boat scenes were incredible!!  I dug my fingers into the sofa and held on for dear life.  Kudos to the production team and the cast.

 

The two bags of gold just laying around was LOL funny.  Yep....Jack needs a smarter crew which made a great entrance scene for Edward Teach.

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I'd like to know what Miranda was saying to Flint?  Was it "Come with me?"

 

The politics back on Nassau island are less compelling to me.  The machinations of the Madam (I can't remember her name right now) and the way she plays Jack and Anne is completely uninteresting to me. I get bored whenever she starts talking.

 

 

I get Max (The madam), I really do.  In the very first season, she told Eleanor that Nassau was "on sand," meaning that either the British or the Spanish will come to take it over.  Max knows that sooner or later the place will go belly up, that's why, in the beginning she wanted Eleanor to leave with her.  

 

I think Max was trying to tell Ann that if the British come, she'd be better off with Jack.  After all, Max is a madam and no matter who comes to the island, they'll always need prostitutes. 

 

The boat/storm scenes were fantastic, I especially loved it when the ship would groan, because that's what ships do when they hit a storm, they groan and you're like, "holy shit, is this ship going to break apart."

 

I think Silver cares more about the men than Flint (did Flint like, slice the mast, even though there were men on top?), to Flint they're all replaceable.  Interesting that now Flint cares only for himself and his revenge and it's Silver who cares about the men.   Why does Flint always 'dis Silver?  Doesn't Flint remember that if it weren't for Silver he probably wouldn't even have the Walrus?  I mean Silver was shady last season, but so was Flint.

Edited by Neurochick
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Impressive special effects and some memorable scenes like Silver watching helplessly as his crewmate drowned, but I'm somewhat disappointed in this episode. Blackbeard shows up and calls them a bunch of pussies. Except for the storm, that's about it.

 

A few things I wonder about:

 

1. What was Max holding when she suggested converting the gold into something more portable? It looked like a rock.

2. What is Amanda saying and what was that thing next to her? The same "death creature" that kissed Eleanor in the pirate's play in S3E1?

3. Does Flint think his Amanda nightmares are just bad dreams or does he actually think she's trying to deliver a message from beyond the grave?

 

I think we've seen more shipboard action in these first two episodes than we have in the whole first 2 seasons put together and that's a welcome development. Other than that I think it's a snooze fest so far. Things are moving at an excruciatingly slow pace. Here's hoping it picks up a bit now that they've gotten the budget-busting ship-in-a-storm scene behind them. Seriously, I was yawning through much of this episode.

Edited by Tabasco Cat

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In Flint's defense, he kinda had to cut the topgallants free even if there were men on them. De Groot told him they had to do it or the wind in those sails would capsize the ship. It was a choice of two or three dying versus all of them dying. You can't pull a sail down in that type of wind. It was cut it free or they all go down.

 

I think Miranda was repeating the line she said to Flint in season 2 when she told him about Abigail Ashe. The line was something about "I want you to come with me so I can save your life".

 

Really brilliant episode. The storm scenes were freaking amazing. Incredibly well-done. I've seen feature films that didn't have that good quality of work.

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One thing I didn't do while watching this episode was yawn and I watched it more than once today.  In fact the first time, I had to stop putting away laundry, sit my ass down and watch.  I don't think I moved until the credits rolled.  Damn but that was some movie quality shit. 

 

What Blackbeard told them was now that Nassau has this gold, it's grown soft, easy to take over.  The irony is that Flint and Eleanor thought that the gold would solve their problem, but it has just created new ones, more money, more problems.  

Edited by Neurochick
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In closing may I just say that Billy's arms are a thing of beauty and the shot of him clinging to that sail cross-bar is simply awe-inspring.

There ought to be a Best Arms award for Tom Hopper! This episode picked up speed after last ep's set-up and kept me riveted throughout. I still need subtitles for Mumbles Vane, but have actually grown used to Max's accent.

 Jack letting the ladies think that his change of heart had to do with their persuasiveness and NOT the new arrival will probably have repercussions.

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The storm was film quality incredible and easily one of the best special effects I think I've ever seen on television.  I simply couldn't look away.  Silver's helplessness to do anything but watch his crewmate drown was gutting and Luke Arnold absolutely sold it.

 

Methinks the crew isn't going to be all that enthusiastic about voting Flint prom king of the Walrus again after deliberately steering them into a monster storm and getting them stranded in becalmed waters running short on supplies.

 

I was a little underwhelmed by Blackbeard's integration into the canvas.  So he and Vane are old running buddies and he showed up just in time to call them all weak asses and tell them prosperity has made them soft.  Okay.  He does have a point that Jack and company are now completely preoccupied with keeping track of the gold and figuring out how to keep it safe, but I was still expecting more ... something.  I'm having a hard time buying Eleanor's story that her teenage self had such easy time chasing him away from Nassau, but who knows?

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1. What was Max holding when she suggested converting the gold into something more portable? It looked like a rock.

I'm pretty sure it was a black pearl. That was the currency that was offered by Vane & Co. when Max offered to sell them the page that Silver stole out of the captain's log back in season 1 so they must be a common medium of exchange in the area.

So . . . does anyone else think it was a bit strange that after turning down Hornigold's pardon offer, evading their cannon-fire and steering into a storm that his navigator called a "ship-killer", Captain Flint retired to his cabin and took a nap? I loved, loved, loved seeing Miranda Barlow climb up the side of the ship, looking drowned, voiceless, and just basically bringing the creepy like a boss. But Flint taking a nap right then and there seemed odd.

Edited by WatchrTina

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Poor Guy-Who-Called-Randall-and-Silver-Curs that one time. Whose name, closed captioning tells me, is Bub. Yeah, the guy named Bub probably definitely understands Silver about being afraid to be seen as the weak one.

Idelle: Just how stupid are your men?

Rackham: It's hard to say.

heh.

Although really, I don't get why they gave the guy more money if he lost it, at least, that they gave him so much again. Although Jack spent 100 pieces so some lady could serenade him on the toilet, you'd think he'd understand money can go quickly. (I was confused there though . . . was the pirate really so stupid he lost the bag, or was he trying to just safeguard his own share and just picking stupid place to hide it?)

I was also confused as to what Silver meant by "he had me" when he was talking to Billy. Did he mean he was there and he and Flint could have come up with another plan or "he had me" as in he somehow roped Silver as well as the men into believing, in that moment, that going into the storm was the only feasible plan?

Max talking about securing Ann's future was weird. Ann's gonna unsecure her own future by knifing whatever next-door neighbor accidentally steps on her flowerbeds.

Chiming in that the storm scenes were awesome.

Yeah, Eleanor's gonna find out she's really wrong about the whole "Flint can be reasoned with" thing.

I think Silver cares more about the men than Flint (did Flint like, slice the mast, even though there were men on top?), to Flint they're all replaceable. Interesting that now Flint cares only for himself and his revenge and it's Silver who cares about the men. Why does Flint always 'dis Silver? Doesn't Flint remember that if it weren't for Silver he probably wouldn't even have the Walrus? I mean Silver was shady last season, but so was Flint.

I think Flint is a "do as I say, not as I do" kind of guy, and for all he knows, Silver could be on his way to some other plan to screw him over as they speak.

Methinks the crew isn't going to be all that enthusiastic about voting Flint prom king of the Walrus again after deliberately steering them into a monster storm and getting them stranded in becalmed waters running short on supplies.

To be fair to Flint, he did want Silver to convince the men to leave before Hornigold got there. Even if he points that out he's probably screwed because probably no one is going to believe him.

I was a little underwhelmed by Blackbeard's integration into the canvas. So he and Vane are old running buddies and he showed up just in time to call them all weak asses and tell them prosperity has made them soft. Okay.

Yeah, his speech to Rackham and Vane basically amounted to "wah wah you darn kids get off my lawn". Why did he automatically assume that all the captains just let anyone who wants to join their crew just because someone asks first?

I am enjoying Woodes Rogers though.

Edited by ulkis
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I was also confused as to what Silver meant by "he had me" when he was talking to Billy. Did he mean he was there and he and Flint could have come up with another plan or "he had me" as in he somehow roped Silver as well as the men into believing, in that moment, that going into the storm was the only feasible plan?

 

 

I interpreted it as Silver getting so caught up in Flint's passionate rhetoric that he didn't question Flint's plan, even in private. The man is a force of nature, and everyone is getting caught up in it. 

 

I was glad to see Miranda again, even if it was as an older version of Samara from The Ring. There's something about the actress that's so compelling, and though I'm not much of a lip-reader, I'm sure she was saying "I want you to come with me" at one stage. 

 

Mixed feelings on Edward Teach, mainly because he's probably just going to screw up Flint's plan. You can already see Vane being swayed by what he had to say.

 

In hindsight, Vane is quite the hypocrite for dumping Rackham back in season one for turning on his men "for a woman" considering it's the exactly the same thing he did to Teach for Eleanor's sake. 

 

So far I think Eleanor's got the most compelling story arc. Is she playing British officer guy or is she going along with what he wants? Already tension is brewing between herself and the chambermaid and Hornigold. 

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I truly think Eleanor is giving Rodgers the proper intel he needs, without having a bigger agenda... yet.

 

She cant do much more until they're closer to Nassau, but then, she'll start playing a longer game...

 

Quite curious to see what will become of the tension between her and Hornigold. I dont think Rogers is gonna be able to prevent them from going at each other's throats if they want to. 

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I didn't think it was odd that Flint took a nap.  The storm was probably hours away from them, and Flint knew he needed to be awake and alert to have to deal with it, Billy knew to wake him up at the right time.

 

I was also confused as to what Silver meant by "he had me" when he was talking to Billy. Did he mean he was there and he and Flint could have come up with another plan or "he had me" as in he somehow roped Silver as well as the men into believing, in that moment, that going into the storm was the only feasible plan?

 

What Silver said was that he understood why the men wanted to follow Flint into the storm, and then Silver said "and he had me, he had ME and that is not supposed to happen."  I took that to mean Silver is not supposed to be swayed by Flint's words.  Silver is the shop steward and Flint is the boss.  It's Silver's job to say, "wait a minute captain, we might all die in that storm, take a step back."  Now Flint probably would have told Silver to fuck off, but Silver still had to make the effort.  

 

I am loving the shipboard action this season; to me what goes on on the Walrus is the best part of the show, I know the rest of is is important, but I am enjoying the dynamics on the ship.  

 

Silver's helplessness to do anything but watch his crewmate drown was gutting and Luke Arnold absolutely sold it.

 

 

I loved that scene, and the one after it when the crewman reaches Silver and he's just sitting there, he didn't give a shit if the water came up and took him.  I also noticed the scene after, when the crewman took Silver above and he saw the injuries of many of the men.  I think Silver is realizing that Flint's gone coo coo bananas and he might have to do something about it.  Another little moment was when Flint cut the sail (mast?) even though there were men on it, men Flint told to get up there.  Billy and the men looked at him like, "damn, that's fucking cold."  Billy might be leaning towards Team Silver now, as perhaps he is realizing his captain is unhinged.

 

Flint and Silver have a strange relationship IMO.  I think Flint realizes that Silver is very intelligent; I mean what do we know about Silver?  Last season he said he was an orphan, he also memorized an entire page of a book in seconds, even when he was being chased by Flint; that means Silver can read and write and probably has a very good memory.  Flint also knows that Silver is manipulative, how he got in with the crew, (last season) by finding out all their gossip and doing that report every day.  Flint thought that Silver was just going to keep getting his ass kicked and  he wrote him off, but then it worked.  Flint sees Silver as shady, but I don't think Silver is like that anymore.  I don't think he's all about John Silver, I think he truly cares about the crew, and that's kind of Flint's doing too when he told Silver something like, "where else are you going to matter?"  Sometimes I feel Flint hates Silver, sometimes I think Flint sees Silver as an annoying younger brother and sometimes  I get a master/apprentice vibe from them, and Flint doesn't want the apprentice to surpass the master.

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Anyone want to take bets on how many episodes it takes for Eleanor and Woodes to fuck?  Because I feel like that's clearly coming.  I'm gonna say by episode 5.

 

Shows like Black Sails, where the protagonists are not really good people, pose an interesting conundrum, especially the longer they go on.  Narratively we're supposed to, if not root for them, at least be interested in their story. But how does that story end?  Pirates are, generally speaking, not great people.  They kill and rape and steal.  Even Flint, originally presented as an honorable man in comparison to his fellow pirates, has a high body count on his hands, and plenty of those are innocents.  So on the one hand Woodes Rogers is presented as an antagonist.  On the other hand, I'm kind of morally completely OK with him and Eleanor succeeding in driving the pirates out.  I'm curious to see how the show runners handle their characters and the idea of what end they ultimately deserve, especially now that we're gearing up towards Pirates VS the British, rather than Pirates VS Pirates.  

 

Despite the general disdain for her around her, I continue to think Max is one of the smarter characters on the show.  It's not just that she thinks long term, she thinks contingencies, she thinks of different outcomes and how she, and the few people she cares about, might continue to survive in each possible situation.  She's very adaptable, in a way that a lot of the other very proud and stubborn protagonists aren't. 

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Silver had two days with the page, I think. In season one when Randall told de Groot that Silver was the thief, they wanted him to memorize one of the doctor's medical page in 5 minutes to prove he could really memorize something, and Silver was complaining it was a shitty test because he had two days with the schedule and only 5 minutes with the medical page. Not that memorizing it in only 2 days isn't impressive either, especially considering the pressure.

 

Flint and Silver have a strange relationship IMO.  I think Flint realizes that Silver is very intelligent;  . . .  Sometimes I feel Flint hates Silver, sometimes I think Flint sees Silver as an annoying younger brother and sometimes  I get a master/apprentice vibe from them, and Flint doesn't want the apprentice to surpass the master.

 

I got all that from Flint until pretty much the finale. I agree that Flint has always known Silver is intelligent, but he also didn't respect him because Silver was a sneak and a coward. Then after Charles Town he finally respected/liked Silver, but then Silver pretty much spilled about lying about the gold and Flint is back to holding him in contempt again. At least, it seems that way so far going by last week's episode, but maybe Flint was just pissed that Silver was trying to psychoanalyze him instead of just disliking him in general.

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Anyone want to take bets on how many episodes it takes for Eleanor and Woodes to fuck?  Because I feel like that's clearly coming.  I'm gonna say by episode 5.

 

Yeah. I didn't even think of it but you're probably right. I'll hold out a sliver of hope that they don't, because if he initiates the sex it's pretty much coerced since she's completely in his power (and I wouldn't want them to use that be like, "see! he's no better than the pirates!") and if she does it makes him look like a dumb lunk who can be manipulated by sex. But they probably won't be able to resist going there.

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Flint and Silver need to be, and are imo, a very strong part of the show, if not the central part, if TPTBs intend to end the show as a set up for the book. 

 

I don't mind a slow paced show if I have confidence that TPTBs have a directed narrative. I do think this is the case here, and I'd go so far as to say it's tighter than Game of Thrones, and that's based on books.

 

I really liked how when they showed the storm scenes, the cut to the next scene was Eleanor on the Brit's ships and it was all peaceful and calm, and they're drinking tea.

I think Eleanor is dishing out just as much intel as she can get away with. She's not stupid. She was stuck in a cell and got offered a way out. I don't think she's got a long game in motion yet, but is playing it one day at a time. Don't offer more intel than asked.

I do like how Max is the one who knows everything could fall apart and is trying to figure out contingency plans.

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I just re-watched the episode – this time on my iMac via STARZPlay.com (my computer screen handles night-time scenes better than my TV) wearing Bose headphones.  I highly recommend doing this.  It allows you to see what’s going on “up top” during the storm more clearly and the sound design for this episode is simply amazing.

 

I also liked the episode a lot better on second viewing.  Here are some thoughts.

 

During the “previously on” section you see a shot of Billy, Silver, Muldoon, and the Samurai Pirate whose name I do not know, all standing in a row.  The contrast between Muldoon on the one hand and Billy and the Samurai Pirate (who are both HUGE) on the other hand is a stark reminder of how small Muldoon is.  I’m sure now that that shot was deliberate because it struck me in the guts to realize that most of the men on the crew would have survived Muldoon’s ordeal – a few more inches of height is all that was needed to keep his head above water. Damn.

 

I actually gasped out loud when that hand grasped Flint’s shoulder at the end of the dream sequence.  That’s what good sound effects will do for you.  The sound of Mrs. Barlow squelching wetly across the deck was truly creepy.  Oh and those waterspouts we see later in the episode?  They growl.  The sound of the wind when the men get below?  Terrifying.

 

Today I learned that “to go on the account” is an express for being a buccaneer and/or pirate.  Both John Silver and Edward Teach use the term in this episode.

 

Flint ordering Billy aloft to personally oversee the take-down of the sails made for a really great “Fuck my life” moment for Billy.  Loved the look on his face.  Much later in the episode, when Flint gives him new orders to which Billy responds “this is mad!” I thought Flint was ordering Billy into harm’s way again.  But he wasn’t – this time it was Flint’s life that would be in peril – tied to the wheel and single-handedly steering the ship through the storm.  I loved the yin and yang of those two moments.

 

Someone above asked what Silver meant when he said “He had me there.  And that’s not supposed to happen.”  I think that can be interpreted in two ways.  The John Silver we met in the very first episode only cared about himself and should not have been taken in by Flint’s words.  That John Silver only cared about his own survival.  The second interpretation is that John now sees himself as the voice of the crew and that he should have at least considered surrender as being in the best interest of the crew.  I think the real answer is that it’s a little bit of both.  John does care about the crew – he lost his leg because he would not sell them out.  But I also think he’s frightened by the way he is changing.  He’s afraid of being connected to anyone.  We see that flare up in the hold with Muldoon, where he’s clearly terrified at being dependent on or beholding to anyone.  I just LOVE the character development we’re seeing with John and I even like the fact that I’m never quite sure what he is thinking.

 

We have a new female character:  Anna-Louise Plowman as Mrs. Hudson.  Interestingly I saw her in an episode of Father Brown immediately after watching this episode of Black Sails.  It was a bit disconcerting.  I’m glad to see a new female character added to the cast after the loss of Mrs. Barlow (though she is apparently going to haunt this season).  Mrs. Hudson only had a few lines but they were intriguing.  She’s clearly not just a “chambermaid” (as Eleanor calls her.)  She speaks too well for that.  I also think it is interesting that she does not hold the aristocracy in high regard, thinking them no better than Eleanor and her father, just blessed with better lawyers.  I’m looking forward to seeing what she is all about.

 

Eleanor.  I can’t figure her out.  I think she is just in survival mode – doing and saying whatever it takes to stay alive and get back to Nassau where she has at least a few friends left.  Rogers is a fool if he really believes she’s going to tell him everything she knows.  He warns her that if she withholds, if she manipulates, if she lies, she dies.  And then he immediately learns that she withheld something, “You never asked!” (about her relationship with Vane) she says.  “I needed to ask?”  he replies.  Then he threatens to ship her to London to hang . . . aaaand then he backs right down.  So much for playing tough with her.  Does he believe her when she says (of Vane) “I underestimated him and I lost my father.”  What she doesn’t say is that she despised her father.  I certainly don’t believe Eleanor named Vane as the one pirate who could not be pardoned because she wants vengeance for her father’s death.  I presume she’s remembering their last meeting, in the tunnels under the fort and she knows her life is in danger should they ever meet again.  But when Eleanor tells Rogers what he needs to know to “Slay Nassau” and tells them they can work together even without trusting one another because their goals are aligned, I don’t understand why he falls for that.  Eleanor wants to “drive the monsters out of Nassau?”  Which monsters would that be – the ones she has been working with all these years?  It’s quite clear to me that Eleanor is embarked on a long con of Rogers and I’m not sure why he’s falling for it.  Perhaps he’s not.  Perhaps, like Vane, he has a contingency plan already in place for when she plays him false.

 

And speaking of long cons, I get the feeling that the show really wants me to believe that Max loves Anne but I’m sorry I just can’t get there.  I think her feelings are more like the very mixed feelings that John Silver has for his crew – a connection tempered by a fear of that connection.  I think Max pretends to feel more than she does as a way of manipulating both Anne and Jack.

 

The dude who lost the two bags of gold was perfectly cast.  That was a great comedic scene.  And it served an important purpose.  Pirates with too much gold are like lottery winners.  Many of them will just squander the money and end up bitter about the experience (but while the money continues there is no telling them anything.)

 

I wrote a bunch of notes about how beautifully all the storm scenes were shot.  I don’t think I’ll bore you with them because you saw it for yourselves.  But wow.  This episode better be up for some cinematography awards come award season.

 

I also wrote a bunch of notes about the tragic death of Muldoon.  But you saw it.  It was fantastic.  What more is there to say?  Maybe only that watching John’s evolution from the selfish arsehole we met in the first episode to the man he is becoming is definitely one of the show’s highlights for me.

 

What do you think the crew thinks of Flint now?  On the one hand he took them into the storm.  On the other hand, most of them survived it.  He personally sacrificed four or five crew members in order to save the rest.  That’s got to generate some mixed feelings.  And then he refused to cower below decks to ride out the storm with the rest of the crew -- not if that meant ending up right back in Hornigold’s hands.  Instead he tied himself to the wheel and guided them to safety.  I’d say at this point the men fear and respect him in equal measure.  That’s not a bad thing for a pirate captain.

 

It is amazing how much was crammed into this episode.  According to the “Inside the Episode” documentary on STARZPlay.com the storm alone took 30 days to film.  Despite that, there is still a tremendous amount of exposition delivered during the episode.  Teach has very tangled relationships with a lot of the characters we already know.  Hornigold betrayed him, as did Vane.  Eleanor is an enemy.  Jack had been a fan but, in the face of Teach’s distain that’s over.  I still don’t know what to think of Teach – is he playing Vane or did he really leave the island as a way of showing mercy to his poor, misguided protégé?  Time will tell.

Edited by WatchrTina
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on the one hand Woodes Rogers is presented as an antagonist.  On the other hand, I'm kind of morally completely OK with him and Eleanor succeeding in driving the pirates out.

One moment from the show that I loved (that I did not mention above) was when the other English captain says to Rogers, "I've heard things.  Certain details of your grand voyage.  Rash decisions and the terrible injuries that followed; the scars of which are left out of the pages of your account; but perhaps are harder to erase elsewhere. Were you so confident then as you are now?"

 

It makes for an interesting comparison to Flint.  His crew is now bleeding and battered but it was his decisive action (cutting that rope) and heroism (manning the wheel) that saved them.  Maybe.  They are now in a different kind of peril.  Rogers sounds like he may be cut from the same cloth as Flint. 

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Shows like Black Sails, where the protagonists are not really good people, pose an interesting conundrum, especially the longer they go on.  Narratively we're supposed to, if not root for them, at least be interested in their story. But how does that story end?  Pirates are, generally speaking, not great people.  They kill and rape and steal.  Even Flint, originally presented as an honorable man in comparison to his fellow pirates, has a high body count on his hands, and plenty of those are innocents.  So on the one hand Woodes Rogers is presented as an antagonist.  On the other hand, I'm kind of morally completely OK with him and Eleanor succeeding in driving the pirates out.  I'm curious to see how the show runners handle their characters and the idea of what end they ultimately deserve, especially now that we're gearing up towards Pirates VS the British, rather than Pirates VS Pirates.

 

 

I don't know.   I remember that whole Charlestown disaster,  when they were going to execute Flint and then Vane.  What did these so called "civilized" people do?  Open a coffin where the body of a woman who merely stood up, was lying and had these "good Christian" people throw rotten fruit at her.  To me, that's the kind of fucked up shit I'd expect from ISIS.  Even though the pirates aren't the best people, to me they're a lot better than so called "civilized" society where if you weren't a straight, white, Christian, Englishman from the upper classes, you were fucked.  I watch this show with the mindset of how society was in the 18th century, not the 21st.  

 

 

Someone above asked what Silver meant when he said “He had me there.  And that’s not supposed to happen.”  I think that can be interpreted in two ways.  The John Silver we met in the very first episode only cared about himself and should not have been taken in by Flint’s words.  That John Silver only cared about his own survival.  The second interpretation is that John now sees himself as the voice of the crew and that he should have at least considered surrender as being in the best interest of the crew.  I think the real answer is that it’s a little bit of both.  John does care about the crew – he lost his leg because he would not sell them out.  But I also think he’s frightened by the way he is changing.  He’s afraid of being connected to anyone.  We see that flare up in the hold with Muldoon, where he’s clearly terrified at being dependent on or beholding to anyone.  I just LOVE the character development we’re seeing with John and I even like the fact that I’m never quite sure what he is thinking.

 

 

That's a good point, because what Silver said was, "and he had me there, he had ME...THERE, and that is not supposed to happen."  You could take that either way, Silver should have said, "fuck this dude, he's going to get ME killed" or "fuck this dude, he's going to get US ALL killed."  As quartermaster, Silver is supposed to be the voice of the men.  Last season, if you remember, Silver told Flint he'd lived in an orphanage, so I'm going to assume he's been taking care of himself most of his life.  He said he was most frightened by them saying "we'll take care of you."  I get the feeling that no one has taken care of John Silver (and is that is real name?) for a long time.  How old is Silver supposed to be?  If I go by Luke Arnold's age, then Silver is in his early thirties, so he could have been taking care of himself for perhaps twenty years or more.  That's a lot of time to be on your own.  

 

I think Silver is afraid because he's evolving and he doesn't know who he's becoming.  The Silver of the first and second season, to me was a man-child; this season, Silver seems more adult.  

Edited by Neurochick
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I do like how Max is the one who knows everything could fall apart and is trying to figure out contingency plans.

 

True, although I think someone like Vane doesn't have a contingency plan because for him it's either do or die. He doesn't care for one.

 

During the “previously on” section you see a shot of Billy, Silver, Muldoon, and the Samurai Pirate whose name I do not know, all standing in a row.  

 

Joji. 

 

Then he threatens to ship her to London to hang . . . aaaand then he backs right down.  So much for playing tough with her.

 

I don't think he expects her to tell him everything, on the contrary, he's just trying to get out as much information out of her as he can. All the threats and bluffs and "I needed to ask?" are a part of that.

 

I think Eleanor just wants to be in charge on Nassau, by legitimate means or no.

 

And speaking of long cons, I get the feeling that the show really wants me to believe that Max loves Anne but I’m sorry I just can’t get there.  I think her feelings are more like the very mixed feelings that John Silver has for his crew – a connection tempered by a fear of that connection.  I think Max pretends to feel more than she does as a way of manipulating both Anne and Jack.

 

I don't even know if I buy that she feels a connection in and of itself. Maybe gratitude and some lust mixed in there. 

 

What do you think the crew thinks of Flint now?  On the one hand he took them into the storm.  On the other hand, most of them survived it.  He personally sacrificed four or five crew members in order to save the rest.  That’s got to generate some mixed feelings.  And then he refused to cower below decks to ride out the storm with the rest of the crew -- not if that meant ending up right back in Hornigold’s hands.  Instead he tied himself to the wheel and guided them to safety.  I’d say at this point the men fear and respect him in equal measure.  That’s not a bad thing for a pirate captain.

 

They're probably also a little bit attracted to him because of that. ;) But no, really, I'd say you're right, at this point, although going by the previews

it seems like the balance is going to tip in favor of fear.

 

Jack had been a fan but, in the face of Teach’s distain that’s over.

 

I don't know, I can picture Jack still trying to buddy up to him. He seems a bit insecure.

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To me, that's the kind of fucked up shit I'd expect from ISIS.  Even though the pirates aren't the best people, to me they're a lot better than so called "civilized" society where if you weren't a straight, white, Christian, Englishman from the upper classes, you were fucked.  I watch this show with the mindset of how society was in the 18th century, not the 21st.

 

I always have this feeling that you are holding back when you post. You should speak your mind!

 

The extremist christians are essentially the same as ISIS as far as I'm concerned. I don't know how accurate the show is, but Nassau seems way way more democratic than the 'civilized' world. 

 

Whatever Silver meant, the plan to sail into the storm was their best option. They showed quite clearly that engaging the ship would have been suicide. They might have been able to outrun her, but she would have gotten off at least one more round if not two, and that would have crippled the Walrus.

 

Plus, you can spin it that Flint was smart enough not to get the crew involved in a losing fight, and he had the confidence in them to face the storm and survive. Silver may have wanted time to contemplate, but I don't see another option. 

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I think Silver is afraid of evolving and caring for people, etc etc, but I think he's also simply afraid of being considered/being an invalid. I think any of them would be; if it were Flint or Vane they probably would have clobbered Muldoon for trying to take the mallet out of their hands.

 

On the other hand, I'm kind of morally completely OK with him and Eleanor succeeding in driving the pirates out.  I'm curious to see how the show runners handle their characters and the idea of what end they ultimately deserve, especially now that we're gearing up towards Pirates VS the British, rather than Pirates VS Pirates.

 

I don't know.   I remember that whole Charlestown disaster,  when they were going to execute Flint and then Vane.  What did these so called "civilized" people do?  Open a coffin where the body of a woman who merely stood up, was lying and had these "good Christian" people throw rotten fruit at her.

 

It's not that society is so great but neither are the pirates. Vane doesn't like slavery, but that's because he was a slave and it's personal for him. Neither him or Flint are out there preaching equality and civil rights for all. Everyone except Bonny was pretty much fine with Max being raped as payment for losing the pearls.

 

Plus, while it doesn't make what the crowd did less crass, Miranda was presented as a pirate consort who encouraged Flint's crimes. They didn't deserve (at least, not all of them) to be cannonballed for it.

 

re: the pirates v England, neither of them have a significant moral high ground.

Edited by ulkis

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Nassau is fine, it's the "civilized" world at the time I have issue with.  Also the thing is real life isn't black or white, it's somewhere in the middle.  

 

I agree that going through the storm was the best way.  I think Silver was upset because he didn't challenge Flint.  Even if Flint said, "fuck you, we're going through the storm" at least Silver could say, "well I challenged him."  Silver isn't supposed to blindly agree with Flint, even if Flint is right, he's supposed to present another option.

 

I thought it was cool how Flint managed to stay upright during that storm, other than when he was tied to the wheel.  He may be batshit insane but he knows his stuff.

 

I think Flint and Silver could be great partners if Flint would stop dismissing Silver, sure the dude's shady but as I said before Silver's probably been on his own most of his life, takes time for someone to learn trust.  And I think Silver cares about Flint.

 

I think Eleanor might be playing Woods Rogers like a cheap fiddle.

 

Also, I watch this show for enjoyment, not a moral lesson , I don't need anybody to "root" for while I'm watching TV; I do need a team to root for when I'm watching sports though.

 

BTW, if you have Starz, check out next week's clip, it's real short and real simple,

Flint and Silver in a rowboat, Silver being Flint, Silver giving Flint death looks.

 

eta:  I do get the "moral lesson" issue, well sort of.  Sometimes I think people overthink shit.  It's like, "what if I was a person in Charlestown, going about my business and all of a sudden these ships start cannonballing my town?"  That's true, but shit like that happens in war, whether it was the Spanish or the British or whomever.  These pirates see themselves as fighting a war.  This is why IMO war sucks.  Why do the pirates need to be driven out of Nassau any more than the Europeans who "discovered" these islands (like there weren't people living there already?").  Maybe they all should leave.

Edited by Neurochick

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Nothing's black and white.  As Ashe told Flint last season,  "You want civilization?  That's what civilization is," when talking about Flint being driven out while he cut his own deals with Hamilton and the Navy.  Sometimes the moral high ground is all in the perspective and sometimes it just isn't there at all.

 

On rewatch, one thing I was struck by is that Blackbeard credited Flint with the destruction of Charleston while Eleanor believes or says she believes that Vane is responsible for it and the killing of Ashe.  It makes me wonder what the official public narrative is and if that will have any bearing on how the crown deals with each of them.

 

The Blackbeard-Vane scenes bother me a little less on rewatch because you can really see Blackbeard planting the seeds to disrupt the three-way partnership and Vane thinking "hmm, maybe he has a point.  Hey, maybe he means me," when talking about someone stepping up.  Vane is a joy to watch when he's trying to use his head because you can visibly spot the wheels turning.

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I loved that scene, and the one after it when the crewman reaches Silver and he's just sitting there, he didn't give a shit if the water came up and took him.  I also noticed the scene after, when the crewman took Silver above and he saw the injuries of many of the men.  I think Silver is realizing that Flint's gone coo coo bananas and he might have to do something about it.  Another little moment was when Flint cut the sail (mast?) even though there were men on it, men Flint told to get up there.  Billy and the men looked at him like, "damn, that's fucking cold."  Billy might be leaning towards Team Silver now, as perhaps he is realizing his captain is unhinged.

 

Flint cutting away the top of that mast may have been cold, but it was ruthlessly pragmatic . Right before that Flint was told by DeGroot that the sail was going to capsize the ship, and the Walrus was beginning to list heavily to one side. It was a choice between sacrificing the men on top or the entire ship going down.

 

That said I think you're right about Flint being unhinged. Miranda's death seems to have extinguished whatever humanity was left in him. He had no emotional reaction whatsoever to sacrificing those crew members, and even had a nice nap afterwards. Meanwhile Silver was bawling his eyes out after having failed to save a crewmate from drowning. 

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I feel like I should post here, just to register my appreciation for Vane's naked back as he broke rocks. I mean: oof.

 

That is all; carry on.

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I feel like I should post here, just to register my appreciation for Vane's naked back as he broke rocks. I mean: oof.

The abs were pretty damned impressive too.  Zach clearly works out.

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Watch Black Sails: because oof.

 

Starz knows what shows they like. Nothing wrong with that. I've been watching this network for 8 years.

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What Blackbeard told them was now that Nassau has this gold, it's grown soft, easy to take over.  The irony is that Flint and Eleanor thought that the gold would solve their problem, but it has just created new ones, more money, more problems.

Well, yes and no.  Different problems to be sure, but gold like that opens up plenty of opportunities, if they're smart enough to take them.  Once word gets out that there's bags of gold just lying around, there'll be nor shortage of pirates making a beeline for Nassau.  More pirates means more ships and fighters, and likely more people willing to sell goods to them.

 

That is, if they're smart enough to start spending some of it.  If they sit on it it'll just blow the top off inflation in the colony (which it already has, given the wages Jack had to offer for labor on the fort) and serve as a lure to every pirate who thinks he has enough men to raid it.  I mean I see Teach's point about these guys getting drunk and soft, but while squabbling might keep you tough, organizing will keep you alive.  Bigger foes (like a British fleet) mean you need more organization, multiple pirate ships working together rather than just loyalty among one crew.  Gold could make that happen but they've got to be smart about it. 

The boat/storm scenes were fantastic

Jeez, no kidding.  That whole storm scene was brutal and fantastic, which was odd given how the British Flotilla scene looked painfully fake.  I mean the ships were cool but them cutting through the water was not the best bit of CGI they did this week.  

Edited by henripootel
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We have a new female character:  Anna-Louise Plowman as Mrs. Hudson. I’m glad to see a new female character added to the cast after the loss of Mrs. Barlow (though she is apparently going to haunt this season).  Mrs. Hudson only had a few lines but they were intriguing.  She’s clearly not just a “chambermaid” (as Eleanor calls her.)  She speaks too well for that.  I also think it is interesting that she does not hold the aristocracy in high regard, thinking them no better than Eleanor and her father, just blessed with better lawyers.  I’m looking forward to seeing what she is all about.

 

Probably a vain hope, but for a second there, I wondered if she was going to end up Mary Read.

 

I really dont understand why she hasnt been introduced yet ! The show would greatly benefit from a new woman in the main cast and Mary Read is the obvious choice (and the one "real pirates" fans are expecting from the very beginning).

So I hope we'll finally get her this season ! 

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This show is much better than the first season but so far this season doesn't seem as good as last. This episode did have some great shots of the storm. The sound was horrible though. I could not hear any dialogue which I guess works with the storm but non storm scenes were tough as well.

I feel like I need to come here to catch what was said. I could rewatch, but this show, while entertaining just doesn't entice me to watch again.

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BTW, I did watch again with the headphones on and MAN, completely different experience.

 

This show is much better than the first season but so far this season doesn't seem as good as last.

 

 

Well, we're only two episodes into this season.  I didn't like a lot of last season for some reason.

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Little thing I noticed on 2nd viewing.  This was when Teach was meeting with Vane and Rackham, just after the 2 sailors were told to fight each other to join Teach's crew.  On the shot of Teach speaking with front door as the background, you could see the 2 men (short hair and blond hair) fighting outside of the tavern (the outside was blurred out).  Cut to the next scene you could see Vane and Rackham surprised expressions when they saw the fighting outside.

 

As much as people seemed to think Flint was unhinged, once Flint cut off the top sail and the crew went inside, Flint stayed outside by himself to helm the ship's steering wheel.

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So . . . does anyone else think it was a bit strange that after turning down Hornigold's pardon offer, evading their cannon-fire and steering into a storm that his navigator called a "ship-killer", Captain Flint retired to his cabin and took a nap? I loved, loved, loved seeing Miranda Barlow climb up the side of the ship, looking drowned, voiceless, and just basically bringing the creepy like a boss. But Flint taking a nap right then and there seemed odd.

At the beginning of the episode, Flint took a nap with 10 or so other crews in the common area.  I took it as the crews took turn to take nap before the storm hit them.

 

Towards the end, he probably passed out after manning the steering wheel by himself the night before and the crew took him back to his cabin

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At the beginning of the episode, Flint took a nap with 10 or so other crews in the common area.  I took it as the crews took turn to take nap before the storm hit them.

Kinda hit home for me that, on sailing ships, things develop slowly.  This isn't exactly high-speed pursuit, and it impressed me that they can see a ship coming an hour or two out, realize that the wind is wrong for them and they're gonna get fucked, and that they'll be lucky to even get away.  Over hours.  Plenty of time for a nap, and amazing that they can get any sleep knowing that the die is cast.  Nice bit of verisimilitude there, plus the dream sequences were pretty haunting.  Flint is a complicated man.

Edited by henripootel
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Count me among those who is curious about Mrs Hudson. I would be ok with her turning out to be Mary Read but right now Im leaning more towards her simply being another spy for Woodes. As in she's there to try to get Eleanor to spill anything extra she might be hiding. Im very curious indeed.

 

On a side note Anna-Louise Plowman is the wife of Toby Stephens so Im also curious to see if they will have any scenes together.

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OMG, can you imagine Maggie Smith as your mother-in-law? I'd be constantly terrified. Toby would have to spend a lot of time soothing me. Which, well, okay, if you insist.

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but then Silver pretty much spilled about lying about the gold and Flint is back to holding him in contempt again.

 

Silver didn't confess his part in that, though. He laid it all off on the other guy (who was dead by that point), claiming that guy only told him the truth before he died. Flint is a smart man so he probably suspects Silver was in on it, he just doesn't care right now. He's feeling too murdery towards others at the moment. But I could see it becoming an issue down the line, especially if Jack loses he gold. And I wouldn't be surprised if he did with Rogers headed his way and no fort to defend the place and the pirates on the island being in non-stop party mode because of the gold. Blackbeard does have a point about them there.

 

I hope/suspect they will introduce Mary Read next season. First they have to get Anne un-whipped by Max. Anne has, sadly, become boring now that all she does is mope after Max. I need her spirit and fire back. I need her back to killing people just because they annoy her. 

 

Rogers and Eleanor will probably be screwing by next week. You know it's coming. I don't think Eleanor has an endgame in mind just yet. She knows she doesn't have a lot of options. She's double-crossed Vane and he wants to kill her. Her father's dead. No one in Nassau is upset about her arrest. Most of them resented her because she had power over them so they're enjoying her downfall. She's doing what she can to survive. That said, I'm quite sick of her "poor little rich girl, daddy didn't love me enough" routine. It's tiresome and hard for me to feel for her when you compare her to others. Silver was an orphan with no one. Vane a child slave, beaten, starved, worked to an inch of his life. Anne a child bride to an abusive husband. Billy ripped from his family. Somehow "Daddy left me in a nice house with my own slave to take care of my every need, waaa, waaaa" just doesn't fill me with sympathy. I actually hope that Rogers uses her and tosses her once he's done, giving her a taste of her own medicine.

 

Count me in as another who is underwhelmed by Blackbeard. He's basically your drunk uncle at the Thanksgiving dinner table -- "In my day we didn't have school buses! You had to walk 20 miles, in the snow. Uphill. Both ways!"

 

On a shallow note, I do have to to appreciate the fan service for the ladies in ShirtlessVane and Billy in a wet shirt with his big bulging arms. Niccceee.

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Silver didn't confess his part in that, though. He laid it all off on the other guy (who was dead by that point), claiming that guy only told him the truth before he died. Flint is a smart man so he probably suspects Silver was in on it, he just doesn't care right now. He's feeling too murdery towards others at the moment. But I could see it becoming an issue down the line, especially if Jack loses he gold. And I wouldn't be surprised if he did with Rogers headed his way and no fort to defend the place and the pirates on the island being in non-stop party mode because of the gold. Blackbeard does have a point about them there.

 

 

I have always been confused about the gold, what Silver did and why.  Let me see if I remember; the scouts told Silver the gold was still there, and the men who were supposed to defend it had all come down with some tropical disease, hence it would be easy to take it.  Silver told Flint the gold was gone.  Now I was never sure why Silver said that; was it because Flint was going to Charlestown to return Abigail Ashe and was hoping to get a pardon?  Did Silver feel that Flint wouldn't return and he just wanted to make sure he got his?  Then Silver told Max about the gold, again, didn't get that unless Silver felt that Flint wouldn't return from Charlestown, that he'd go off with Miranda and that would be it.  

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Richard Guthrie (I think it was him, anyhow) gave Flint the lecture on how the Urca gold would complicate the pardons from Ashe if someone turned up with it. That it'd be hard for England to justify pardoning the men while Spain was screaming about how those men just robbed them. I think that played a part in Silver's decision. I think he felt like Flint was going to put the pardons above the gold so he decided to secure it for himself. That's just my theory, Neurochick, on what Silver was thinking. It was mostly greed in his mind -- make sure he got the gold first and foremost and then get a bigger cut to boot by shutting out the rest of the crew.

 

For me, I never got why Silver told Flint about the gold after Charles Town. Seemed to me like he'd have been better off to go back to Nassau, get his cut from Rackham/Max/Anne and disappear.

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For me, I never got why Silver told Flint about the gold after Charles Town.  Seemed to me like he'd have been better off to go back to Nassau, get his cut from Rackham/Max/Anne and disappear.

I assumed there were two reasons:

  1. ​He's just lost his leg.  He's not going to be in any shape to run away with his share of the gold any time soon.  He probably wasn't able to even get off the ship for weeks after they returned.  
  2. As soon as they return to Nassau Flint is going to learn about the gold (assuming Jack was successful in retrieving it.)  By telling Flint about it first, John stood a better chance at getting away with blaming the two dead guys for telling the lie.  Best defense / good offense and all that.

And then there's the fact of the changing relationship between John and the crew.  The crew he saved.  The crew that rescued him in return.  The crew that would not leave the room as his leg was cut off.  The crew that just elected him quartermaster.  I don't think John could bear the idea of that whole crew finding out that he had tried to rob them of their greatest prize.

Edited by WatchrTina
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Starz knows what shows they like. Nothing wrong with that. I've been watching this network for 8 years.

Heh. Their tagline should be "Starz: You know you like it". 

 

The action scenes were amazing this week. The whole storm sequence felt straight out of a movie. And the interplay between Silver, Flint and Billy is great to see. Silver is becoming more compassionate, Flint is even more cold and pragmatic (and maybe a little crazy) than ever, and Billy is just trying to keep this damn boat floating. 

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And then there's the fact of the changing relationship between John and the crew.

More to the point, there's the relationship between Flint and the crew.  I don't think John had a change of heart so much as Flint remained captain after Charles Town.  Sliver had to have an exit strategy with his (slightly larger) share of the Urca gold he'd get from betraying the crew and tipping off Rackham.  This would ostensibly be easier if Flint was no longer captain, because if Flint was captain, he'd figure out that he'd been betrayed (because the gold had been recovered by someone) and who it was, cuz three of his crew, Silver and the two guys he sent to watch the Urca, were suddenly rich.  Captain Flint would put two and two together and kill them all, but if Flint wasn't captain, he could just burn with suspicion as Silver sailed away with his cut.  

 

When he was grievously wounded and Flint stayed captain (and the other guys died), Silver saw the hand writing on the wall and told his story.  No change of heart, just practicality.  At least that's what I got.  Still leaves questions like 'why did Silver think he'd ever get away with betraying the crew?'  Would the incredible risk he incurred by betraying the crew be worth the bump in share he got from Rackham?  The Urca gold represents incredible wealth, and even if Flint intended to keep a good bit of it aside to use for his own political purposes, it's still a huge payout.  Why not stick with the plan?  Silver's no idiot, and how much could he rely on Rackham's crew to actually get the job done?

 

Another issue - isn't Silver still due his cut for giving the info to Rackham?  I could have been paying closer attention but he did tip them off that the gold was still on the beach, right?  Then Silver's a rich man, so where's his cut?  Why is he not 'convalescing in Nassau' (i.e. hiring a boat and getting his share the hell out of there) while Flint et al. are out getting themselves killed in a storm?

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Re-watchin prior to the new episode tonight.  Two more comments:

 

When Teach says to Vane (when is sword is stuck through the tent) "Man puts a dead thing in the ground, he expects it to  stay there.  But sometimes it comes back."  I assume Teach was talking about himself and his return after Vane betrayal metaphorically put him in the ground but what a nice call-back to Vane's actually rising from the grave when he went back to child-slavery island.

 

Flint said "Billy, make it so!"  Loved that.  I always assumed Picard's catch-phrase on Star Trek: TNG was an actual military (or more likely nautical) expression and Flint using it confirms that for me.  I get the strong impression that the writers of this show do their homework so I assume that's a real expression used by sea captains of this era, like "Going on the account" is a real expression describing buccaneering / pirating activities.

 

And as a side note -- there was a fire threatening the Black Sails set today (or possibly yesterday -- I can't keep straight where the international date line is with with regard to South Africa.)  It will be interesting to hear / see the results of that.

Edited by WatchrTina
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