S04.E10: Blood Debts

[wonderwall]

YR.  TIWS

 

You're right. This is way simpler.

 

Did I get that right?!??!

[lemotomato]

I agree that this is how he copes... I do appreciate that he apologized, it was a little bit of development. What I had hoped is that the writers could have moved a O/F sooner in the episode with her encouraging him to go into the field & get Darhk. They still could have had all the emotionally poignant scenes along with some top heavy action scenes at the start of the show. But if they had put it earlier in her hospital course it would have shown that OQ is learning. For drama purposes it had to be later in the episode, which frankly made the characters look bad and the pacing seem off. However, I'm trying to accept that the writers have limitations and I either need to learn to accept their limitations or move on.

I agree with everything that you had hoped would happen on the show. I'm definitely not happy that the show cheated us of all the emotional beats we should have gotten just for the sake of emphasizing how emotionally stupid Oliver is. But I had very low expectations for this episode because I remembered how we were cheated of emotional payoff in 312, when Oliver got back to Starling City. We didn't get to see the Team react to seeing him alive on TV. We got one hug and two handshakes before Oliver immediately started talking about his partnership with MM. Right before 410 I worried if we would get any bedside scenes at all, given how many previews and sneak peeks were released with no Felicity in them. So I was pleasantly surprised we got what we got, two beautiful scenes that were almost everything I had hoped for (not enough touching in the second scene, IMO.)

 

Hope for the best, but expect the worst is kind of my guideline for watching the show after what happened in season 3. Keeps me more zen about most of the problematic things (except for Laurel, who is managed so terribly that it's beyond my comprehension).

Edited January 22, 2016 by lemotomato

[quarks]

I'd like to hear your theories. Would you be interested in elaborating? :) Perhaps in the Bitterness thread?

 

More of my rants? I didn't think you were that much of a glutton for punishment?

[Starfish35]

I guess I am. I enjoy your rants. :)

Edited January 22, 2016 by Starfish35

[kismet]

 

*Seriously, folks, you're not being charged by the letter.  Just type stuff out.

Um, no?

Personally, I like the abbreviations because it makes the posts shorter to read, which on a phone or tablet is critical. For me it's not laziness in typing (ok maybe a little); primarily it's the fact that if people type out whole words or names repeatedly it just makes the posts that much longer to read. I prefer reading people's thoughts rather than assessing their typing speed or abilities.

 

Plus, I work in healthcare, so abbreviations are my jam. I could probably speak full sentences in abbreviations.

[catrice2]

I would hate for it to be Diggle in the grave, but at this point the show is so boring and misdirected that I hope he does leave. What has happened to Arrrow? 

[johntfs]

You're right. This is way simpler.

 

Did I get that right?!??!

YD

[Long Days Night]

Would she be crying over Quentin?

 

Suppose Quentin was killed on the courthouse steps, where he was going to meet Donna for a Justice of the Peace wedding ceremony, and Donna ended up watching him shot down while she was standing there, full of hope and joy, wearing her wedding dress.  Seeing her mother's happiness ripped into shreds might put Felicity in a serious "kill the bastard" mood.

[looptab]

I don't think it was, but it's probably because an interesting number of posters seem to FF the flashbacks :D

(PS: I looove your profile picture. The King of Snark!)

Haha, I'm not there yet. As much as something bores me, if it's on first viewing I rarely fastforward, I got to see it all! (I did FF parts of the Hawks during the crossover, though. It was THAT bad).

 

And thank you! yes, he is:) 

Edited January 22, 2016 by looptab

[kismet]

Similar to OQs reaction in the first FF; I don't think FSs reaction can be used to figure out who died or even who the killer is.

Honestly, I'm not even sure they know who dies and whokills who yet.

[tv echo]

Question: The news broadcast (at the end of this clip) referred to Laurel as "D.A. Laurel Lance."  When was she promoted to DA from ADA?  What happened to all the other, more senior ADAs (Laurel's only been an ADA for two-and-a-half years)? And isn't the City DA office a mayor-appointed or elected position?

 

[apinknightmare]

Honestly, I'm not even sure they know who dies and whokills who yet.

 

 

I think they know now, but I'm not sure they'd narrowed down their list of suspects to the definite death at the time they wrote/filmed this ep. And if they didn't, then the director wouldn't know (and even they did know, I'm not sure they'd give that info to the director) enough to be able to tell EBR exactly how Felicity should react to whoever it was. 

[looptab]

 I think the FF has been shot and added later, like the one in the premiere.  I seem to remember a BTS pic of EBR in the production office just before Christmas break, and I might be wrong, but she looked dressed like she was in the limo scene. So maybe they did know when they shot it? IDK, I could also be reading way too much into this and totally wong, haha.

[dtissagirl]

Question: The news broadcast (at the end of this clip) referred to Laurel as "D.A. Laurel Lance."  When was she promoted to DA from ADA?  What happened to all the other, more senior ADAs (Laurel's only been an ADA for two-and-a-half years)? And isn't the City DA office a mayor-appointed or elected position?

 

DD had the Ghosts kill every other person in the DA's office, like, not even the dude that went around at snack time selling vegan powerbars and kale smoothies survived. There's no Mayor. So Laurel took matters into her own hands.

[Morrigan2575]

Question: The news broadcast (at the end of this clip) referred to Laurel as "D.A. Laurel Lance." When was she promoted to DA from ADA? What happened to all the other, more senior ADAs (Laurel's only been an ADA for two-and-a-half years)? And isn't the City DA office a mayor-appointed or elected position?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyAshOV6ca0

I don't know that she was. They've been referring to Laurel as "DA" instead of ADA for awhile, I just think they use DA as a blanket description for anyone in the DA's office.

However,

there was that interview with WM where she said Laurel would take on a new role, which could mean she's been promoted to DA or they just mean she's actually going to be a lawyer again. [/spoiler]

[bijoux]

 I think the FF has been shot and added later, like the one in the premiere.  I seem to remember a BTS pic of EBR in the production office just before Christmas break, and I might be wrong, but she looked dressed like she was in the limo scene. So maybe they did know when they shot it? IDK, I could also be reading way too much into this and totally wong, haha.

 

Do you mean this one? It definitely could be the same black outfit.

 

 

As for Laurel, I haven't noticed the DA thing, but I can't say I was paying all that much attention. Who's running the city anyhow, Quentin? He's the only person from that council they formed who wasn't taken out by Darhk, isn't he?

[looptab]

Yes, this one. :)

[KirkB]

Given how many DA's have died in Star City, I imagine the Mayor is fine with Laurel being willing to take the position, whether it's official or not.

[AyChihuahua]

Given how many DA's have died in Star City, I imagine the Mayor is fine with Laurel being willing to take the position, whether it's official or not.

There is no mayor to be fine with it.

 

IRL a mayor or governor could appoint an interim D.A., but yeah, this show is ridiculous on political and legal stuff, so I just pretty much stopped caring. Fine, she's the D.A. now, appointed by herself or President Obama or the Emperor of Mars. Whatever.

[dtissagirl]

Given how many DA's have died in Star City, I imagine the Mayor is fine with Laurel being willing to take the position, whether it's official or not.

 

There's no Mayor! Or maybe Laurel's the interim Mayor too, which would explain so much.

[KirkB]

I meant to say Governor, not sure I typed Mayor. Sorry about that. But my point still stands. If Laurel is willing to take up a position that so far has had a one hundred percent mortality rate I don't think anyone in Star City is going to stop her. Except maybe Dark.

[lexicon]

I liked the little beats between Oliver and Felicity, even though she should have been a little less understanding.  Surely Felicity's entire life isn't about the mission--nobody deserves that kind of life. And, it was framed more as her understanding Oliver's need for vengeance than seeing him as an instrument of her own. The more I think of it, the more I feel manipulated into liking those little beats.  They just used Felicity to sell Oliver's abandonment of her to us.  At least Donna chewed on him some.

 

Honestly, my favorite parts were Anarky's digs at Laurel. I also enjoyed Oliver's willingness to throw Sara back in Laurel's face.  Basically, anybody being mean to Laurel made me happy.

 

I'm really worried that we're supposed to think Digg is in the grave, judging by Felicity's reaction in the limo.  Would she really be that upset about Laurel?  I don't think Thea is a real candidate, but Donna might be. I certainly don't think Lance would warrant that reaction. 

 

Felicity's missing ring in the limo seems to indicate that she and Oliver have broken up.  They weren't comforting each other, and they seemed really tense with each other, which is SO WEIRD to see. Ugh.

 

The flsahbacks were awful.

 

I agree with pretty much all of this except I was a tad more upset about how they chose to portray Oliver dealing with Felicity's injury. In fact, I was pretty upset that the way they chose to frame it was more about showcasing Oliver dealing with it than Felicity.

 

We saw him being told about her need for more surgery, we saw him refusing to visit her and instead focus on catching DD, we saw him being told about the surgery not going well, we saw him being told that she is probably not going to walk again. While Arrow is Oliver's story and I'm a big advocate of the focus being on him and can even appreciate the need for major developments to be seen through that lens, I am not here for yet another instance of a woman being hurt and the resulting story being all about his manpain. That being said, I still hope, naively perhaps, that 4.11 will right some of those wrongs and give me Felicity's viewpoint on all of this.

 

What really disappointed me in all of this though was Oliver's reaction to her injury, not that he wouldn't stay at her side for the entire time, not that he felt the need to hit the streets, not even that his reaction was to compartmentalise. All of that was expected and in keeping with who Oliver is. What disappointed me was that, his reaction was all about him, his needs, his feelings, his anger, his impotence, his rage. 

 

Where in the midst of all of this was his concern for Felicity? While he satisfied his need for revenge (?) justice (?) idk, he chose not to be there for her before she had to face yet another surgery and he chose not to be there for her as she learned for the first time that she was probably permanently paralysed. In essence by his failure to act/absence he chose to let her deal with all of that alone and despite her smile and understanding words when he did show up, he effectively created a situation where she was lying in a hospital bed paralyzed and wondering whether he'd changed his mind about them. He did that when all it would've taken would've been for him to take a few moments between missions to stop in and see her, reassure her, touch base to make sure she was mentally as well as physically coping or even ask that he be present when she was told about her condition being permanent. Instead we get a man who left the woman he professes to love more than anything, who he says lights his way, to deal with her most challenging physical and mental fight alone or at least without his support.

 

I watched that last Olicity hospital scene and felt sad because all of his pretty words and talk of for better or worse didn't fly because when the chips did fall he wasn't there. I wish Felicity had been allowed to get angry at him or even better, sad at his absence but TPTB decided that not good 'Ole Felicity, she's understands him you see, even though she's been essentially lying there wondering if he's changed his mind about them...bygones. Then she gave him a pep talk and he marveled at her strength and I thought how much he took it for granted, how much he counted on it, on her, always being there for him and how when she needed him to be strong for her, he let his own pain keep him away.

 

Now they say he's learned his lesson but really with these Ep's I have no confidence that the next time a scenario like this pops up, Oliver wouldn't do the same thing because they have demonstrated they have no problem with repeating the same story beats and at times, the same storylines, over and over again. 

[apinknightmare]

Oliver behaved in an unforgivable way (and I'm glad he voiced it), but he relies a lot on other people's emotional support, and hasn't really ever had to provide it for anyone. I think he was dealing with it in a way that he's used to being helpful - by going out there and getting rid of the problem with his fists and his skill. He's an emotional moron, so it might not have ever occurred to him that Felicity could be simply comforted by his presence, and not just the knowledge that he was out there trying to get Darhk. 

[bijoux]

Oliver behaved in an unforgivable way (and I'm glad he voiced it), but he relies a lot on other people's emotional support, and hasn't really ever had to provide it for anyone. I think he was dealing with it in a way that he's used to being helpful - by going out there and getting rid of the problem with his fists and his skill. He's an emotional moron, so it might not have ever occurred to him that Felicity could be simply comforted by his presence, and not just the knowledge that he was out there trying to get Darhk. 

 

He definitely was. When he came to see Felicity he said he didn't want to come see her until Darhk was off the board. Like a cat brings you a mouse as a sign of affection. It's effed up, but I think this is where Oliver was coming from.

[Guest]

I also think we forget how messed up Oliver is still. He probably still has PTSD in some ways (because no, he never dealt with that) and when his happiness is threatened he retreats into old protective behaviors. I do not agree with it. I thought he was totally wrong not to be there for Felicity, even though logically I understood why just based on his character. But he is messed up and probably always will be. 

[AyChihuahua]

He definitely was. When he came to see Felicity he said he didn't want to come see her until Darhk was off the board. Like a cat brings you a mouse as a sign of affection. It's effed up, but I think this is where Oliver was coming from.

I totally get all this, and don't disagree, but I really, really wish they would move him past making the exact same mistakes over and over.

[Chaser]

At least this time he acknowledged it was wrong. I don't remember him doing that previously.

[wonderwall]

I totally get all this, and don't disagree, but I really, really wish they would move him past making the exact same mistakes over and over.

 

I think him voicing that what he did was 'unforgivable' is a sign that he DID learn from his mistake and is likely to not make the same mistake again. Because previously he never really voiced whether his mistakes were 'unforgivable' or just 'not right'. But in this case he did so I guess that's why I took it as a sign that he learned. But only time will tell, really. 

[AyChihuahua]

I pretty much consider his behavior re the hospital all part of his "running when things get emotionally challenging." So the times that has happened that spring to mind are (1) leaving SC after Tommy died; (2) not going to Moira's funeral; (3) pretty much all of S3, which IMO was basically a slow suicide. I guess he didn't expressly state that he was wrong to do those things, at least not that I remember, so maybe he'll learn this time. If I had any faith in Guggie I'd be more comfortable with that, but I genuinely have exactly zero faith in him.

 

I don't know, I think my overall feeling is that last season I was very sure he was totally in love with Felicity, and I was far less sure that she was totally in love with him. This season that feeling has flipped. He's lying to her, he was really unsure about proposing (I get that he had reasons, but the end result of his reasons was to be unsure about proposing), and he didn't stay with her in the hospital, when he did stay with Thea. Both times she was in the hospital, and it looks like he'll

be at her bedside when she's in the hospital AGAIN

(seriously, show, learn a new trick). I get that the circumstances bw Thea's and Felicity's hospitalizations are not identical, but the end result is still that he stayed with Thea but not with Felicity.

 

I'm hoping when Felicity dumps him (not a spoiler now), that he fights for her this time and doesn't just watch her walk away. I 100% wanted her to dump him so that hopefully he'd FINALLY learn that lesson, too, but I don't want a repeat of S3's coldness and distance any more than anyone else does, and the fix to that, and to my lack of sureness that he's totally in love with her still, could be him really fighting for her this time.

Edited January 22, 2016 by AyChihuahua

[apinknightmare]

Both times she was in the hospital, and it looks like he'll

be at her bedside when she's in the hospital AGAIN

(seriously, show, learn a new trick). I get that the circumstances bw Thea's and Felicity's hospitalizations are not identical, but the end result is still that he stayed with Thea but not with Felicity.

 

The Thea thing doesn't really bother me so much, because we don't know that Oliver *wasn't* there when Felicity was unconscious immediately after surgery like he was with Thea, and when he saw the LoA pope election smoke, he took off and left Thea, too. If he hadn't had to go back and get her near lifeless body to take it to the LP, I'm not entirely sure he wouldn't have done the same thing he did with Felicity - leave Thea alone in the hospital while he took on Ra's by himself to make him pay.

 

Personally, I don't hold his presence during Thea's second hospitalization against him, since it wasn't a life/death thing. I think the possibility of losing someone is what truly scares the shit out of him and makes him avoid it - and Thea was hurt, but conscious and going to recover. 

[HighHopes]

I watched that last Olicity hospital scene and felt sad because all of his pretty words and talk of for better or worse didn't fly because when the chips did fall he wasn't there. I wish Felicity had been allowed to get angry at him or even better, sad at his absence but TPTB decided that not good 'Ole Felicity, she's understands him you see, even though she's been essentially lying there wondering if he's changed his mind about them...bygones. Then she gave him a pep talk and he marveled at her strength and I thought how much he took it for granted, how much he counted on it, on her, always being there for him and how when she needed him to be strong for her, he let his own pain keep him away.

 

 

All of this. For 3.5 seasons now Felicity has been the one to support the team and give pep-talks when needed. She's the glue and she is the emotional support. And when it was finally her who needed the emotional support, Oliver did not deliver. He apologized, yes. But the words "for better, for worse" are kind of meaningless when it is currently "the worse" and he's not there. 

 

I do understand Oliver's need to fight bad guys and punch rather than sit. But Oliver took the time out in Russia to sleep with Isabel, took the time out of fighting/finding Slade to take Sara to the hotel room and sleep with her. He took time out of finding Ra's to sit with Thea. But the one time he needed to take a time out to sit with Felicity? He didn't. He made it all the way to the hospital, but then he saw an excuse to leave, and he took it. 

 

The Thea thing doesn't really bother me so much, because we don't know that Oliver *wasn't* there when Felicity was unconscious immediately after surgery like he was with Thea,

 

 

The show showed him sitting with Thea though. They didn't with Felicity- and from what was said throughout the episode I took it as besides him taking her to the hospital, he hadn't been back. If they had one throw away line about him being there before when she woke up, or stuck in a scene of him sitting beside her it would have been fine. But they didn't, which leads me to think it was because he wasn't there at all. 

Edited January 22, 2016 by HighHopes

[Guest]

Oliver doesn't love Felicity...? His love for her is literally the only thing I'm certain about on this show, even when he's being a royal dummy.

[apinknightmare]

The show showed him sitting with Thea though. They didn't with Felicity- and from what was said throughout the episode I took it as besides him taking her to the hospital, he hadn't been back. If they had one throw away line about him being there before when she woke up, or stuck in a scene of him sitting beside her it would have been fine. But they didn't, which leads me to think it was because he wasn't there at all. 

 

But we didn't get to see anything that happened between the time that Felicity was taken into the ER and when she woke up. A whole world of things happened in that time. It wasn't ever indicated in the show that he took her there and never went back. It *was* implied that he hadn't seen her since she'd woken up. I'm not saying that I think he sat and kept a vigil by her side while she was unconscious, but once he found out she was going to live I imagine he took off to find Darhk. 

[thegirlsleuth]

Oh, Oliver, you emotional idiot.  This episode wasn't terrible, but I think I had high expectations. I didn't like how Felicity's injury became all about Oliver, but I have high hopes, based on the promo, that they will delve into Felicity's emotional/physical state a little more next week (although who knows?  They will probably spend most of the episode having Laurel and Oliver counsel Thea on her bloodlust). I did appreciate that while Oliver acted like an idiot, NO ONE except Felicity let him off the hook for it:  Thea, Laurel, Lance, Diggle, and Donna all said he should be at the hospital, although only Diggle and Thea got through.  And I don't think the writers rewarded his choice either--every single tactical choice he made in hunting Dahrk was wrong because he wasn't in his right mind, and oddly, I have to wonder whether they ringless scene at the end was them adding punishment for what he did, a sort of "see, he's not getting away with his behavior".  A friend of mine had a similar experience when she got cancer where her husband couldn't get out of his own feelings enough to be supportive.  She was fine during her illness but ended up divorcing him three years later, a sort of delayed emotional reaction.  I had that in my head during the limo scene.

 

EBR and Amell almost sold me on her being fine with him not being there for the surgery/news about paralysis with the "heroes work by different rules" thing, although I wish they had spent more time on her injury in their first conversation and  felt he should have still been looking more remorseful in their second conversation. Her spitting out the words as quickly as possible when she was giving him an out on the engagement was a nice way of showing how painful the idea of breaking things off was to her, and his quick action in putting the ring on her finger, without a second thought, was perfect and very Oliver. They are both such wonderful physical actors, and while her scenes were the highlight, I thought his acting dominated.  I loved the "You know where the door!" scene was because you could see him go through every emotion--fear, anger, frustration, desperation--but in his Oliver way, and it was followed by the hospital visit where his quiet shrug to her "Are you going off the rails?" question said everything she needed to know. 

 

I also appreciate EBR's commitment to her craft in the death-warmed-over makeup she wore throughout.  It reminded me of the end of season two where she walked around with a bloody nose and head wound even as she gave inspirational speeches and heard professions of love. 

 

It was interesting to see what kind of show we'd get if the "kissing is yucky" crowd got their way.  There may have been some good fight scenes in there, but I couldn't notice because it all became a blur, unbroken by other dramatic beats. 

[looptab]

I really liked the "I really want to go to Bali. Want to come with me?" scene, because that was right after Dahrk said to him to spend time with his family. I read it as Oliver thinking he'd better spend that time with her while he can, and making the most of what little respite DD is giving him-instead of doubling down in his efforts to take him. And, once again, it's Felicity that gets him back in the action, instead. I loved it.

Edited January 22, 2016 by looptab

[lemotomato]

We're reaching that point of going around again and again over the same argument with the same points. Point 1: Oliver is a shitty, selfish person that doesn't love Felicity enough and doesn't deserve her because he wasn't there for her and will never change. Point 2: Oliver is emotionally moronic/selfish and wasn't there for Felicity when he needed her. He acknowledged how shitty he was being. It doesnt excuse his actions, but it *might* mean he's showing some character growth and won't do it again. Doesn't seem like there will be a consensus, so maybe it's time to agree to disagree.

[wonderwall]

IDK why I really liked this moment. Goes to show one of the reasons why Felicity's skills are important and how without her Team Arrow would be lost... Meaning she's just as much of a hero as everyone else. ALSO We see Thea talking about Felicity a lot, but we never see scenes between them. It's starting to really annoy me.

 

[lexicon]

I guess I just didn't like how emotionally disconnected he was from her whole situation. He had to be told by Laurel that she was going to need surgery again, to be told by Thea that something was wrong after the surgery and by Mama Smoak that she was likely paralyzed for life. He didn't even know about the doctor from Central City or that he was her best chance at recovery. This implied to me that he wasn't even keeping up with her situation while she was in the hospital. WTF Oliver?

 

Thank God Mama Smoak was there because with Oliver going AWOL and the rest of TA either dealing with their own crap or on missions, she would've been left literally alone. I guess, maybe then he would've stepped in? I hate that the show has made me question this. 

 

As for the similar situations where he ran, after Moira and Tommy died, that to me is different. In those situations, they had died, there was nothing more he could do for them and so running in order to deal with his own pain was fair game. I too have been known to hide my head in the sand to avoid dealing with a harsh reality, it's a valid coping mechanism for some people. Doing that, when it results in more pain for the person you love though, is a whole other ball game. These are heavy issues she was dealing with. Surgery to deal with paralysis is scary, emotionally and physically taxing, and potentially life threatening and/or altering. What if she had died during that last surgery? 

 

A some point during this post I realised I wasn't giving you guys any new info and what I was saying was unlikely to change your mind if you feel differently, so all in all I guess I'm just grateful for teh opportunity to vent.  

 

ETA- Or what looptab said

Edited January 22, 2016 by lexicon

[Ceylon5]

I'm confused.  Did I miss the part where Damien finds out who Green Arrow is?  Because if he doesn't know who he is, his promise to leave Arrow's family & friends alone for a few weeks is pointless (since he has no idea who Arrow's family and friends are).  And it certainly doesn't give Oliver's family and friends a reprieve, because he doesn't know Oliver is Arrow.  So either he knows Oliver and Arrow are the same person, or that whole conversation had no meaning at all, and Oliver & co. are in as much danger as ever.

[lemotomato]

I'm confused. Did I miss the part where Damien finds out who Green Arrow is? Because if he doesn't know who he is, his promise to leave Arrow's family & friends alone for a few weeks is pointless (since he has no idea who Arrow's family and friends are). And it certainly doesn't give Oliver's family and friends a reprieve, because he doesn't know Oliver is Arrow. So either he knows Oliver and Arrow are the same person, or that whole conversation had no meaning at all, and Oliver & co. are in as much danger as ever.

Green Arrow and Black Canary showed up to rescue Felicity, Thea, and Diggle, so it's not a leap to think that they mean something to GA. Also, DD probably knows that Felicity works with GA, since he heard her name when shrunken!Ray was talking to her in 406. I think we're still assuming he doesn't know it's Oliver, though

[apinknightmare]

Plus, DD would have to be a real idiot to not have put 2 and 2 together since Oliver basically stood beneath the light on his porch at close distance. That comment might've been a slip on the writers' part, or maybe that was supposed to be the first clue that DD does actually know that Oliver is the Green Arrow.

Edited January 22, 2016 by apinknightmare

[dtissagirl]

I finally rewatched the episode, leaving the flashbacks out entirely, and the thing that struck me this time was that the way the structured the action scenes, and the lack of focus on what was going on with Felicity ended up in total failure in grounding Oliver punching people from an emotional standpoint.

 

They grounded Thea punching people from an emotional standpoint -- Anarky is her villain, and she's both horrified and fascinated by what's going on with him. She goes to Alex to break up and to make up with him based on how Anarky affects her. I'm iffy about whether any of this should have been placed in this particular episode, but I can see the hooks in the script that give Thea's action scenes the emotional grounding it needed.

 

They also grounded Diggle punching people from an emotional standpoint. His disappointment and frustration with Andy are grounded by that lovely scene between Dig and Lyla. They talk about what he's feeling about Andy, and that makes it resonate better. Dig's worry about Felicity ended up being a trigger for Diggle, and his lashing out at Andy comes with the baggage of both accepting his own disappointment in his brother AND the fear for Felicity. Again, because this show eats through too much plot in too little time, all of this could have been saved for a whole Diggle-centric episode, but again the emotional hooks are there, scripted to have layers, even.

 

With Oliver, I feel like they missed the mark by about three solar systems. He's punching people because of what happened to Felicity, sure, but because we see so very little of what is actually going on with Felicity, it feels empty. Poor little manchild who doesn't know how to deal when the chips truly fall down, resorts to violence to quell his insecurities and his complete lack of being capable to deal with grown up emotions.

 

It's kinda funny actually, how they eliminated the life-threatening danger from the episode super early. Since Felicity isn't gonna die anyway, it's all right for Oliver to not be stuck in any kind of static non-action heavy scene in a hospital set. So he can be out punching people at large, because this is an action-heavy show.

 

Which makes his motivation backwards when I think about it -- Felicity isn't in any danger of dying, and that's Oliver's out right here, that's why he can be out punching people. He needs to be told by his sister that his fiance is out of surgery, because that surgery means nothing from a narrative standpoint. So he can go to the hospital and turn his back immediately when he hears Anarky was arrested, because Felicity isn't gonna die anyway, so he can go do whatever while she's dealing with the most devastating news of her life, but she's not gonna die, so Oliver can talk to her later.

 

And this seems to be something the show doesn't realize with Oliver. His greatest fear is the people he loves dying, so he'll do anything at all to avoid them dying -- including sacrificing himself so they can live [hello his grand plan against Ra's last season] -- but anything less than dying, meaning anything that needs actual attention to another person's needs, is something Oliver doesn't know how to do. Which, hey, I understand, because I watch the show and I know he spent this formative years learning how to be a killing machine soldier instead of learning how to be a human being living in society. But I'm not really sure the show itself realizes this. I'm not sure this is intentional in an episode like this.

 

Because on the surface, it's all there -- Felicity was hurt, Oliver reacted as usual, he realizes not being there for her was unforgivable, but twist, she forgives him for it. That's a full script right there in terms of plot points and how they progress. But looking under the surface, there's a glaring lack of gravitas in any of it, caused by the lack of script time and screen time given to Felicity and the hospital scenes. Was she ever really in danger of dying? did she crash? did she code? how many surgeries did she have? when did the Central City doctor arrive? how did Felicity react when she was first told the news that she can't walk?

 

Any and all of those things would have grounded the Oliver punching people scenes WAY BETTER from an emotional standpoint. But stunting gotta stunt, I guess.

[tarotx]

I personally think Oliver not being there for Felicity now will come to a blow with the BMD. Oliver is running in that situation as well, at least in the "being present in the emotional battleground" part of it. He stays on the outskirts of dealing with high emotions. And then deals with the consequences. Felicity still has this 'ideal" about Oliver's potential. It's going to be ripped away with the fact that he lied, still keeps secrets and hasn't been there for her in ways she needed though didn't expect. Seeing Felicity emotionally broken is what's going to rip Oliver apart. She's his light and he's the one that "kills" it.

Edited January 22, 2016 by tarotx

[wonderwall]

I personally think Oliver not being there for Felicity now will come to a blow with the BMD. Oliver is running in that situation as well, at least in the "being present in the emotional battleground" part of it. He stays on the outskirts of dealing with high emotions. And then deals with the consequences. Felicity still has this 'ideal" about Oliver's potential. It's going to ripped away with the fact that he lied, still keep secrets and hasn't been there for her in ways she needed though didn't expect. Seeing Felicity emotionally broken is what's going to rip Oliver apart. She's his light and he's the one that "kills" it.

 

Well that's.... bleak. lol 

[looptab]

I agree that the truce was somehow pointless, given that DD hasn't been shown to be out for the Green Arrow, it's always GA that goes against him/disrupts his plans first- and DD kicks his ass every time. So technically they aren't really safe for now, but still, I thought the scene that followed it was a nice moment.

[tarotx]

I think it will just explain how DD won't be the main villain in the Next episode or so...

[looptab]

 

ETA- Or what looptab said

Maybe you mean lemotomato? :)

[lexicon]

Maybe you mean lemotomato? :)

 

Oh my, yes. Colour me embarrassed. 

 

If that isn't proof that we've been circling the same issue too much then I don't know what is ;)

[Carrie Ann]

I finally rewatched the episode, leaving the flashbacks out entirely, and the thing that struck me this time was that the way the structured the action scenes, and the lack of focus on what was going on with Felicity ended up in total failure in grounding Oliver punching people from an emotional standpoint.[...]

 

It's kinda funny actually, how they eliminated the life-threatening danger from the episode super early. Since Felicity isn't gonna die anyway, it's all right for Oliver to not be stuck in any kind of static non-action heavy scene in a hospital set. So he can be out punching people at large, because this is an action-heavy show.[...]

 

But looking under the surface, there's a glaring lack of gravitas in any of it, caused by the lack of script time and screen time given to Felicity and the hospital scenes. Was she ever really in danger of dying? did she crash? did she code? how many surgeries did she have? when did the Central City doctor arrive? how did Felicity react when she was first told the news that she can't walk?

 

Any and all of those things would have grounded the Oliver punching people scenes WAY BETTER from an emotional standpoint. But stunting gotta stunt, I guess.

 

100% agree, and even though they were dead-set on making Oliver an asshole this episode, they didn't actually need to remove him from all of those hospital moments to accomplish that goal, let alone removing those moments altogether. They could have done a montage of moments from the immediate arrival at the hospital through learning Felicity would live, and even have Oliver there to hear about various surgeries/doctors, and then have him NOT being there for the surgery or when she learned she wouldn't walk (basically the amount of time we are sure he wasn't there based on the ep as it stands), and he would STILL look like an asshole. We could have seen him begin to pull away, to turn his attention to defeating DD, right when he knew Felicity would live, when the shock wore off and he began to feel the guilt settle in and the need to eliminate the threat take over his better nature.

 

They just...blew it, again, as usual. And look, I love Oliver and I totally understand his actions even though they were awful, but I don't totally buy them from S4 Oliver. But part of the reason I don't is because of the above; we were missing all the context and causation and emotion. And if you're going to make him an asshole, at least pull some emotion out of it, damn. Because right now I'm just left wondering what the point of that was, in a larger sense.

[thegirlsleuth]

Which makes his motivation backwards when I think about it -- Felicity isn't in any danger of dying, and that's Oliver's out right here, that's why he can be out punching people. He needs to be told by his sister that his fiance is out of surgery, because that surgery means nothing from a narrative standpoint. So he can go to the hospital and turn his back immediately when he hears Anarky was arrested, because Felicity isn't gonna die anyway, so he can go do whatever while she's dealing with the most devastating news of her life, but she's not gonna die, so Oliver can talk to her later.

 

This is a really excellent point.  Not that Oliver shouldn't have been upset, but the fact that they made clear Felicity was going to live really early on made what he did worse in a way.  He wasn't out of his mind with grief, and it wasn't a "blood debt" because Dahrk didn't owe him one--Felicity was going to live.