All Episodes Talk: Breadstix

[dizzyizzy01]

I completely understand why actors stayed. I just find it strange that basically no-one left. If they're asked back, they go, pretty much.

You'd think there would be one person going "Nah, it's been great, but I'm off!"

 

None of these actors are really at the point in their careers where they can just say no to a pretty decent paycheck.  This show gave them their big breaks, I think these actors recognize and appreciate that.  And like others said, I'm sure they like working with the cast and crew of the show.

[fakeempress]

I think also the unsurmountability of their internal conflicts is often much more augmented in our fans' minds than for them. They can make up and move on, because this is an industry that works on connections, and when they have a job conflict, if they can show good will it'll be good for their future career (maybe how the Naya issue worked out). I've read in interviews how actors were hired because of their rapport with some of the top guys (a director, etc.) and easiness to work with. People don't like to hire (they hire but they don't like it) conflict persons on set, unless they are a name / above the line star who has to be accommodated for the project to work. I think Ryan is such a drama queen star here, and probably Fox was more concerned with keeping him in than going to bat for the actors against him. Even though the original cast are the stars, there are fans who loved all the newbies more, and some stopped watching during the last part of Season 5 after the newbies disappeared from view, so I think even the star cast wasn't 100% irreplaceable.

Edited January 25, 2015 by fakeempress

[jaytee1812]

None of these actors are really at the point in their careers where they can just say no to a pretty decent paycheck. This show gave them their big breaks, I think these actors recognize and appreciate that. And like others said, I'm sure they like working with the cast and crew of the show.

There's usually one that doesn't (the words Katherine and Heigl spring to mind) that thinks it them not the show that means they're a great success, that they can do it on their own. Maybe because this show recruited a lot more outside of normal Hollywood, from theatre and dance backgrounds that it hasn't had that.

Also you get people leaving for normal reasons. Sasha Alexander left NCIS because the working hours were just too long, and apparently Glee's hours were insane by Hollywood's standards. Other actors have left because they prefer to do different types of work.

I'm not saying it's right or wrong, I just find it strange no-one ever left.

[Sara2009]

They're not allowed to just leave because they're under contracts. Ryan would have to let them out.

I know Matt has been itching to get back to Broadway for awhile now.

Edited January 25, 2015 by Sara2009

[fakeempress]

They can try to renegotiate contracts if they have family etc. issues or whatever, it's that success with renegotiation isn't guaranteed. Ryan spoke in that infamous graduation-gate interview about some of them not being happy if they have to move to NYC for the spinoff because of family ties in the west (probably Chris), but these things are negotiable. Katie Heigl though has a reputation before GA of being a pain, and she left Grey's when she thought she had HW by the balls so to speak with her rom coms. As we know, this turned out to be a miscalculation and lo, she's back on TV.

 

But I think what's also important here is that this is a (very) young cast, and for many of them their first big break or big network show, and for Lea a break into HW which she may have been seeking (I don't think Rachel's HW story was just because Lea was hired, I think it may be something of her willingness to leave BW in there too). I think the story is that Groff introduced Lea and Ryan? 

Edited January 26, 2015 by fakeempress

[Pink ranger]

Naya did choose drop her regular status for this current season thought, aleast all the evidence supports that.

There are so many examples in TV history of actors quitting shows mid contract. It's not exactly a gun that can be held to an actors head to force them to work. If the circumstances warrant it renegotiations can be made quickly.

[fakeempress]

Naya did choose drop her regular status for this current season thought, aleast all the evidence supports that.

There are so many examples in TV history of actors quitting shows mid contract. It's not exactly a gun that can be held to an actors head to force them to work. If the circumstances warrant it renegotiations can be made quickly.

Yes, examples of people leaving mid-contract are not few and far between. Mandy Patinkin is notorious. ER had people leaving, etc.. But I still think most of these cases are for more established actors, or those willing to take risks for various reasons. On Glee, also cast was dropped from regular to episode commitments or guest stars as you say, which still could give them Glee work, but freed them to look for other gigs. I don't know if all such cases were met with cheers from the actors though. So, t's not like they all are still tied to Glee 24/7 as it were. 

Edited January 26, 2015 by fakeempress

[Pink ranger]

They're not allowed to just leave because they're under contracts. Ryan would have to let them out.

I know Matt has been itching to get back to Broadway for awhile now.

But like I said contracts aren't iron clad. If Matt REALLY REALLY wanted to go the network would have let him.

[Kromm]

Dianna Agron clearly and definitely left at one point. Part of that was how much other work she was getting, but her coming back was clearly because they finally tossed enough money at her.

Harry Shum seemed to have left fairly definitely. He wasn't really there as a name anyway, so I doubt they were ever willing to toss that much money at him.

Really my point is that it's Hollywood, but also this is an ensemble cast, and the only person who probably was considered irreplaceable was Lea, and possibly Jane (who I suppose you could leave out for a few months of stories, but who's needed at a few key points per season mostly because the fandom expects Sue a few times per year to zing things up). Even "Kurtless" stories were probably possible, if they'd wanted to take it that way, and Mr. Shue could easily be written out (as we saw for a while) with hardly a blink. If Matt is there it's because they decided to toss some money at him, but at the same time they probably didn't have to work THAT hard to convince him. His career outside this show has hardly been gangbusters. He's got a fairly high profile Broadway show coming up this spring, so 2015 may be another story, but 2014 was hardly a busy year for him.

[txhorns79]

But like I said contracts aren't iron clad. If Matt REALLY REALLY wanted to go the network would have let him.

 

That's not always true.  It really depends on the show, and how important that particular star is to the continued success of the show.  If it's someone essential, the network is not just going to let them break their contract and leave.        

[camussie]

From what Matt himself said he was all set to leave last season but circumstances changed. I think it is pretty obvious sometime in the spring of 2013 he came to a verbal agreement with TPTB that he would leave in season 5 (my guess is when they came to that agreement they also decided the 100 would be his last episode) but then Cory passed and that agreement was rescinded.

The upside for him is they ended up leaving Lima for the last 7 of S5 (probably because ratings tumbled to the point that supporting 2 narratives was not feasible) so he was able to do what he had planned last spring anyway (which was quite a bit) all while perhaps receiving a Glee salary.

As for Dianna, instead of accepting a reduced episode count but still being beholden to Glee when they called, she opted to be a guest star. It gave her more control over when she would work at Glee but it also seems to have put her on RM's bad side for awhile.

As for Naya, given that she was a abruptly written out twice last season, including once where they had to rewrite the script practically overnight and not use a song they had already started producing, I doubt she had a choice to come back as a regular this season. I would guess getting her back at all involved people swallowing their pride on both sides, especially Naya. I would also guess that there was some very specific conditions she had to agree to before they let her on set even as only a guest star.

Edited January 26, 2015 by camussie

[Sara2009]

2014 actually was a busy year for Matt. He shot 3 movies( though he was just a voice in one), did the " Finding Neverland" workshops,and did a whole bunch of concerts. Granted none of that was extremely high profile stuff, but he didn't spend the year sitting on his butt either.

[fakeempress]

From what Matt himself said he was all set to leave last season but circumstances changed. I think it is pretty obvious sometime in the spring of 2013 he came to a verbal agreement with TPTB that he would leave in season 5 (my guess is when they came to that agreement they also decided the 100 would be his last episode) but then Cory passed and that agreement was rescinded.

The upside for him is they ended up leaving Lima for the last 7 of S5 (probably because ratings tumbled to the point that supporting 2 narratives was not feasible) so he was able to do what he had planned last spring anyway (which was quite a bit) all while perhaps receiving a Glee salary.

As for Dianna, instead of accepting a reduced episode count but still being beholden to Glee when they called, she opted to be a guest star. It gave her more control over when she would work at Glee but it also seems to have put her on RM's bad side for awhile.

As for Naya, given that she was a abruptly written out twice last season, including once where they had to rewrite the script and not use a song they had already started producing, I doubt she had a choice to come back as a regular this season. I would guess getting her back at all involved people swallowing their pride on both sides, especially Naya. I would also guess that there was some very specific conditions she had to agree to before they let her on set even as only a guest star.

In Dianna's case, I think the main driver has been the movies she started getting, and these offers reached the tipping point for her, so she wanted to leave. Maybe she's the best candidate for who of the cast really bailed on their own volition. I don't follow news about her but it sounds plausible she agreed to a guest star in exchange for being able to do her movies, and that wasn't initiated by Ryan and not something he liked. Hence his temper tantrum-type comments about her.

 

I also think Naya wanting to be a guest herself is a spin to make her look good. There must have been a lot of backroom action for her to come back, and she wasn't exactly in the power position to dictate terms, I think.

 

Matt: Is it possible that the changing circumstances are due, in part, to his engagement and marriage, a commitment that has more responsibilites as well re career security?

Edited January 26, 2015 by fakeempress

[camussie]

My very strong impression from the interview Matt gave where he talked about circumstances changing was that it was really obvious he was talking about Cory's passing. I can't find it right now but when I read it I felt that was clear implication.

Edited January 26, 2015 by camussie

[tom87]

In the end those  who stayed did because they are under contract and  RIB wanted them to stay . Those who they "let" leave, the writers had no intention of writing for them at time.

 

 

In Dianna's case, I think the main driver has been the movies she started getting, and these offers reached the tipping point for her, so she wanted to leave.

 

Dianna didn't have new roles lined up when news leaked of who was staying for season 4. In Jan 2012 it was announced who was for sure staying and the others were in limbo. Thats when Dianna started more PR and auditioning for  jobs and did not secure the Family until later that spring.  But sure her getting the role in The Family probably made her decision to only be a guest easier.    Other movies did not come in until later.

Edited January 26, 2015 by tom87

[Pink ranger]

My very strong impression from the interview Matt gave where he talked about circumstances changing was that it was really obvious he was talking about Cory's passing. I can't find it right now but when I read it I felt that was clear implication.

http://www.broadway.com/buzz/173121/whats-up-matthew-morrison-the-glee-star-on-his-classic-christmas-ep-why-hes-dying-to-get-back-on-stage/

He says that he though he would be out of glee a little earlier but then " some things happened" and he can't leave.

[Craphole Island]

Since there was a lot of discussion about Sam on the spoiler thread, I decided since I'm like the only Sam fan I'd come to this thread to just say that I don't understand all the hate for Sam/Chord. I think he's seriously the most harmless character there is. He's never done anything super offensive like most of the other characters (excepting maybe the reaction to Ryder's sexual assault, but ugh that whole storyline I just can't).

 

I understand getting annoyed with how dumbed down he got (I certainly am) and his constant relationships, but to be honest Sam always ends up on the shitty end of the stick of his relationships. Quinn cheated on him, he was basically a beard for Santana, Mercedes led him on somewhat (season 3), Brittany...well that one I guess wasn't on either of them but the writers decided Brittany was a genius which ugh, and then I honestly don't remember how Season 5 ended up with Samcedes. I think Mercedes broke up with him because she didn't feel it was right to make him wait or something? I don't know but I remember thinking Mercedes was very mature in it all. But that's also why I don't see the big deal about Samchel. Like yeah, it's probably just to "pair the spares" but I don't think this is some horrible betrayal to Mercedes considering she ended things with Sam (months ago at this point). 

 

I also think, with the exception of "City of Angels", they haven't really tried to sell him as a male lead as much as others seem to think. He still took a backseat to Blaine throughout Season 4 and 5 and the Samcedes storyline in season 5 basically consisted of 4000 Mercedes solos and Sam singing about a puppy once. And this season he hasn't had much, but it seems that's changing with this past episode, so I can't say for sure.

 

Also, as for acting and singing, I really don't think Chord is that bad. I think he sells his scenes just fine. He's certainly never taken me out of a scene the way others have. And sure he's no Matt or Chris in acting or singing abilities, but I don't see him as being any worse than any of the other guys. Also, since this was brought up, I still think Chord rapping "Stereo Hearts" is the best male rapping on Glee, which granted IS a low bar, hehe.

 

Okay, sorry rant over! I'm not even angry I just decided I wanted to share these things since there was so much hate and it seems so over the top for a character like Sam. Please don't throw things at me!

[camussie]

My issues with Sam go back to how he was introduced - as a blonder better finn. They backtracked on everything that happened "Theatricality" to sell Sam as more enlightened than Finn in "Duets" and more of leader than Finn in "Furt." Then as the topper they had Finn develop amnesia about Quinn in part so Sam could be the aggrieved party in "Silly Love Songs." Glee has never done well with trying to introduce 2.0's and that all started with Sam's intro.

Fortunately after that they stopped with the Sam is Finn 2.0 push. Unfortunately and predictably they doubled down on the Sam is the new Finn push in season 5 , especially in "City of Angels," going as far as to co-opt Finn's second most significant relationship on the show to do so.

If Sam is such a great character he should be able to stand on his own merits instead of trying to push him into the role Finn used to have on the show and using Finn's ghost/memory to do so.

Secondary to me disliking the Finn 2.0 push in season 2 and the Finn lite push these past 2 seasons is how Blam! became the McKinley leads in the second half of season 4 even as RM claimed that he kept McKinley around for Finn's story.

Finally, while I am sure Cord is a lovely person, I find him to be the blandest actor and singer on the show which is why him becoming Mckinley's co-lead with Darren in the back half is all the more annoying. Not that Darren should have been either but at least he was part of the the show's second biggest ship and sang one of the show's biggest hits. Given those 2 factors I at least understood the tenuous logic leading to Blaine's emergence as a lead. For Sam there was no such reason in s4.

Edited January 31, 2015 by camussie

[ancslove]

I still think that after his return mid-Season 3, Chord was guaranteed a certain amount of storyline once the seniors graduated.  That's complete speculation on my part, but RIB had to have offered him something, and Chord's screen time did visibly increase in S4.

 

I liked early Sam.  I thought it was interesting to have a popular geek jock, who was less image-conscious than Finn or Puck in some ways.  I took him more as a different foil for Finn, not a "newer, improved" 2.0 version.

[caracas1914]

I just don't understand giving Chord more screen time and focus than Naya, Chris and Matt. As a supporting character he was OK, as a lead character, just no.

[camussie]

I think it was the opposite and Chord had to be the one to swallow his pride given that he was the one who played hardball (demanding to be put on contract like Darren was) and glee said see ya! I think the only reason he emerged as a lead is because RM liked the Blam! dynamic.

As for him only being a foil for Finn versus being a 2.0 I could have bought that if they didn't completely erase the growth finn experienced in "Theatricality" to make him a foil. For example Finn warned Sam that singing with Kurt in the choir room, where the football bullies wouldn't be hanging out, could hurt his rep even though Finn dressed in a Gaga inspired shower curtain outfit to defend kurt in front of those same bullies. After that bold move Finn being concerned about a duet seemed like writing done by an amnesiac and/or someone wanting to sell Sam at the expense of the story they had already established for Finn.

In other words there were ways to make Sam Finn's foil without negating Finn's story up until that point. Because the writers took the cheap lazy route and Sam was a character I disliked immediately much like many of us disliked the 2.0 in season 4

Edited January 31, 2015 by camussie

[jaytee1812]

Just on the discussion about Will and the old newbies. I don't remember any interaction with Marley, Ryder or Kitty. He had that one episode with Unique, and his only interaction with Jake should've cost him his job. You don't reveal stuff from a students file to anyone, but hey, this is Glee.

[Hana Chan]

Sam is less a character than he is a plot device. Finn needs someone to show him up? Female character needs a placeholder until her next relationship? Someone needs a voice of unwavering support? Sam gets used to fill in whatever need the show might have at any given moment. Sam himself has no core personality (which shifts depending on the writer and what purpose he's being used for in any given episode), no direction, no passions and no goals. He develops a desire to be a model while the storyline was in NY, but as soon as this shift is made back to Lima he decides that he's fulfilled that ambition and he doesn't like NY. It's hard to take anything about him seriously.

 

So pairing him up with Rachel because the show feels the need to give her a love interest and show that she's moving on after Finn's death? I can't take that any more seriously than any of the other plot points they're using him to fulfill.

[camussie]

A couple of lies that this season has exposed is that Matt/Will was a lead after season 1 and that they kept the Lima narrative around to tell Finn's story. This season clearly shows what it looks like when they use McKinley/ND as a backdrop for the coach's' story versus using it an attempt to make the next generation of Glee stars. Don't get me wrong it is a good thing that McKinley/ND is a backdrop to Rachel's story.  That is where the focus should be. I am just noting the marked difference in the approach and focus of her story as coach compared to Will's story post season 1 and Finn's story in season 4.  

 

To my surprise I have liked a lot of Rachel's coaching story this season even as it makes me sad that Finn's story in the same position never got that kind of writing because TPTB were too intent on franchising Glee.  It is sort of ironic, though, that Rachel's coaching story is their best one since season 1, considering that Will and Finn were the characters who were coaches/aspiring coaches while this is probably a stopover for Rachel to steel her spine before she heads back to NY.

Edited February 1, 2015 by camussie

[tom87]

Well I  do not  believe Ryan's ending for Finn and Rachel so we will never  know if they would have fixed it or not.

[shantown]

I thought RIB hit bottom with catfishing and school shootings, but nope. They found an even lower place with with hypnotism and Saw parodies. Seasons 1-3 was a sort of guilty pleasure, the show was cheesy and a bit off the rails, but there was still some good music and you couldn't help but like the actors. Seasons 4-5 gave you secondhand awkwardness to watch, and you felt embarrassment for the cast being associated with some of it. This season is just ridiculous in the levels of awful, and I won't even admit in real life to watching it anymore.

[camussie]

Well I  do not  believe Ryan's ending for Finn and Rachel so we will never  know if they would have fixed it or not.

 

 

I think that is the ending he had planned.  The only question is would ratings have allowed for two narratives for two more seasons.  I doubt it.  Still even if they were in the same place I don't think Finn/Rachel would have reunited before the last 5 minutes of the show nor do I think teaching would have been treated with the same care as it has been this season unless it was Rachel or Blaine who went into teaching.  If it was just Finn who remained a coach/teacher I don't see RM and team as using that position as anything more than a backdrop to other stories they wanted to tell.

[jaytee1812]

I thought the show hit rock bottom with a college freshman with a bad attitude getting a lead role on Broadway.

[tom87]

It show hit bottom  in  season 4 when they tried to shove the newbies down out throats and make Blam a  thing. 

Edited February 1, 2015 by tom87

[Ceeg]

The show hit bottom when it wouldn't commit to one narrative. Either tell the high school Glee club story with rotating cast ala Degrassi, or move the fuck away from the high school and follow the characters that the audience already knows. The in-between bullshit is what killed the show IMO. It ruins the trust of the audience and becomes tiresome when your faves have to share screentime with people you hate. Not to mention, whether you shipped the ships or not, it was a completely boneheaded decision to both give major screentime to new characters, while breaking up the 3 biggest ships and THEN put them all in different locations, geographically. I'm not saying they needed to pander to shippers, but jesus, at least put something out there to make the people who like those ships want to continue watching.

 

So, the viewers were essentially left hanging with minimum screentime for their faves, a confusing non-sensical split narrative (seriously WHY), no actual major ship to look forward to seeing (other than Wemma, which not really because Emma was MIA too), and a bunch of new faces that are really hard to get invested in when there are already 12 characters still technically on the show that we (mostly) loved.

 

Pretty much every decision made in Season 4 should be written down, with bullet points, in A Guide: How To Screw Up Your Hit TV Show and Alienate Your Fans in a Few Easy Steps.

[camussie]

Amen to all of that and let me add a few more - completely blowing up the original story for one of your leads to try and sell those newbies.  Also featuring the originals played by blandest/weakest actors in the case.  I swear for several episodes in season 4 I felt like I was watching the Blam! show.  Now I consider both Blaine & Sam originals but i don't consider either actor lead material.

[jaytee1812]

The show hit bottom when it wouldn't commit to one narrative. Either tell the high school Glee club story with rotating cast ala Degrassi, or move the fuck away from the high school and follow the characters that the audience already knows. The in-between bullshit is what killed the show IMO. It ruins the trust of the audience and becomes tiresome when your faves have to share screentime with people you hate. Not to mention, whether you shipped the ships or not, it was a completely boneheaded decision to both give major screentime to new characters, while breaking up the 3 biggest ships and THEN put them all in different locations, geographically. I'm not saying they needed to pander to shippers, but jesus, at least put something out there to make the people who like those ships want to continue watching.

All of this, I know most people disagree with me about which narrative they should've gone with I still think they should've picked one.

I've always thought although it's a good episode The Break Up is the dumbest idea ever. Especially Klaine and Brittana, much as I hate both ships. If you want two narratives, link them, two or three functioning relationships would've done that, I'd add Tike to that, which make Mike look less of a loser for repeatedly showing up at his old high school looking like he couldn't let go of his ex.

The newbies should've been background characters until season 5. Little bits of focus but as parts of the old casts storylines, then later have their own.

I also think Glee's problems began when it simultaneously wanted to use things like bullying and homophobia for comedy and PSAs at the same time.

[SilverShadow]

The show hit bottom when it wouldn't commit to one narrative. Either tell the high school Glee club story with rotating cast ala Degrassi, or move the fuck away from the high school and follow the characters that the audience already knows. The in-between bullshit is what killed the show IMO.

So much word. They also did a really bad job seeding newbies into seasons 2 and 3 and with integrating the cast in Season 4. There was no reason we needed four new faces all at once. And, frankly, they should have split the originals senior year into two seasons to buy themselves extra time to plan.

[indeed]

The in-between bullshit is what killed the show IMO.

I think it had potential to work if it was executed better, starting in season 3 with the setup. As has been mentioned before, they could have done a better job introducing new characters that would eventually get more focus when some people graduated. Only giving the main graduates a few minutes of screen time in NYC and centering mainly on new characters no one really cared about that weren't exactly original, and essentially ditching characters people did care about started the mess. The split narrative could have worked INO if it was a true, balanced split. Spending time at McKinley just so they could get their Blam on and run around in circles singing while the potential for new and interesting stories in NYC was wasted didn't do the show any favors.

[camussie]

I think breaking up all three ships could have worked if they went back and gave some focus to Finn & Kurt as brothers.  Not that the split narrative was ever a good idea but it wouldn't have been quite as painful if the two were linked up better and with Rachel/Finn and Kurt/Blaine broken up, the Kurt/Finn brothership was the last link standing.  It also wouldn't have been quite as painful if they didn't send Rachel & Kurt, two similar characters, off to NYC alone.  

 

I still think they missed the boat by having Mercedes come back to Lima repeatedly instead of having her pop in and out of NYC.  She would have given NYC a much need third voice and Finn's own musical talents (and despite what people say he did have some especially when it came to arranging) wouldn't have been downplayed in order to make room for a Mercedes drop in

 

I think it had potential to work if it was executed better, starting in season 3 with the setup.

 

 

I think it was a non-starter no matter how well it was executed.  It was just too much to juggle for even the best showrunners which is why they aren't stupid enough to attempt it.  It is a nightmare for showrunners as inept as RM and team.  

Edited February 1, 2015 by camussie

[jaytee1812]

So much word. They also did a really bad job seeding newbies into seasons 2 and 3 and with integrating the cast in Season 4. There was no reason we needed four new faces all at once. And, frankly, they should have split the originals senior year into two seasons to buy themselves extra time to plan.

I've never understood why they did that season 4/5, if anything the should've shortened it. But season 3/4 covering the original first senior year would've been awesome. I would still brought Marley, Jake, Ryder and Kitty in at the start of season 4. By the time the originals graduate the don't feel like newbies.

[Pink ranger]

They should have started graduating people by season 2 IMO. graduating most of the core cast in one go was insanity. Look at any long running ensumble show and they work by getting rid of only a couple of people at a time year by year while also gradually introducing fresh blood.

Edited February 1, 2015 by Pink ranger

[Ceeg]

I think breaking up all three ships could have worked if they went back and gave some focus to Finn & Kurt as brothers.  

 

I don't know. It's not specifically the breaking up all 3 ships I had issue with, but the fact that they did it ALL at once, and then separated all 3 ships by having them live in different states. That gives zero hope to people invested in those couples that they will have any sort of interaction whatsoever. Shippers do fine with breakups, if you throw them some bones and some angsty stuff in there. But, break up 3 ships, put 1/2 of each ship in a different location, and then give them a new romantic pairing. The idea is bad, the setup was bad, the execution was bad, the whole thing was bad. What is the audience supposed to look forward to if they're invested in 1 or more of those relationships?

 

I hate Klaine and I didn't like Finchel, but I still thought the way the whole thing played out was terrible.

[Camera One]

I never thought the show was all that well written.  Season 1 had every soap opera cliché, but at least the show was fresh at that time and I was watching mostly for the fun incorporation of music.  One of my continuing problems with the show has been the showrunner refusing to let the characters grow and move on, and instead keeping them running on a hamster wheel of stagnant characterization.  They're still writing Sue as if it were Season 1, except when it's The Sensitive Sue.  Even main characters like Rachel, Kurt, Blaine, etc., I can't even describe how their characters have grown at all.  The slushie stuff should have been done by the end of Season 1. The whole Glee-Club-as-the-scorned-underclass-of-the-school stuff was no longer believable, and they should have moved on from it.  

 

I never minded the newbies, but Ryan Murphy's obvious disinterest in many of the original characters became very obvious by that time.  

 

Overall, though I still watch the show the same way as I did in Season 1.  For me, it's a mild diversion and I can't bring myself to hate any character or couple, and I just don't find it very interesting to analyze this show or its characters.

[jaytee1812]

IOne of my continuing problems with the show has been the showrunner refusing to let the characters grow and move on, and instead keeping them running on a hamster wheel of stagnant characterization.

In season 1 Mercedes says "I may be a strong proud black woman but that's not all I am." It season 6, what else is she?

Having said that, the one character that has changed is Tina, and I'd give anything for season1/2 Tina back.

[camussie]

As a Finn/Rachel shipper i can say it wasn't the break-up that bothered me.  It was how their stories weren't focused on them becoming their own people apart from each other.  Finn had his finding a passion in teaching story and the concept was good but the execution was fairly watered down because it wasn't Finn taking the initiative as much as it was Artie and Will pushing him along with Mercedes, Santana, and Mike dropping in to be mentors.   Then they dropped it after 410, when McKinley became the Blam! show, until he finally went to college in 419.  

 

For Rachel her story was entirely too focused on whatever she had going on with Brody and her trying show Cassie up (even though Cassie wasn't wrong about her dancing).  Her story should have been finding out she was one of many Rachel's out there and re-doubling her efforts to succeed and showing that journey.  Then there was the god awful way they ended Brody/Rachel.  It was cheap cheap storytelling that did Rachel no favors because it should have been about Rachel realizing she has strength from within and this thing with Brody wasn't working no matter how hot he thought she was.   

Edited February 1, 2015 by camussie

[indeed]

I don't know--rewatching season 1, Kurt certainly has changed. Tina was better in the early days. Sam wasn't as super dumb when he first started.

[jaytee1812]

I don't know--rewatching season 1, Kurt certainly has changed. Tina was better in the early days. Sam wasn't as super dumb when he first started.

Some characters have changed, Tina's had a personality and wardrobe transplant, and not a good one.

[Camera One]

I do think there were some character changes in their first season on the show.  That's usually easy to write, the initial change that characters go through, since that first arc is usually planned.  The stagnation set in after that.

 

Agreed about Tina.  They really destroyed her character for no good reason. It was one case of where it was not an advantage to stay behind at McKinley.

Edited February 1, 2015 by Camera One

[Myrna123]

I think it was clear in Season 2 that Glee was badly written, poorly planned and plotted, and entirely subject to RIB's whims, ego and petulance.

 

You got Emma marrying the dentist (why exactly?), absolutely zero repercussions from Quinn's pregnancy--no closer friendships, no strained relationships, nothing; you got reset after reset after reset, plot points set up early in the season that were completely ignored later in the season--nearly every set-up ended in a tepid whimper and nothing that happened in any one scene or episode had any impact on what came later if one of the showrunners didn't want it too.

 

What you had was really talented costumers and choregraphers, invested music producers and actors who transcended the material.

 

That Glee managed to last six seasons (five and a half, really) is 100% in spite of RIB.  Well, maybe 99%.  I guess they created the characters.  "Created" may be too charitable.  They named the characters.  I'll give them .05% credit.

Edited February 2, 2015 by Myrna123

[Kromm]

I think it was clear in Season 2 that Glee was badly written, poorly planned and plotted, and entirely subject to RIB's whims, ego and petulance.

I think it became crystal clear right about the mid-point of Season 2. That's when the bleeding started.

[Ceeg]

 

Sam's a good guy he won't pursue Rachel completely if he knows Mercedes will be hurt by it. That's not in Sam's character.

.....He had no problem dating Brittany after she and Santana broke up, even though Brittany told him that she was still bummed and hurt over their breakup, and even when Santana came back and wanted Brittany back, Sam and Santana sang Make No Mistake She's Mine. I think Santana had no right to demand they breakup, and Brittany had every right to date whoever she wanted, but if Sam was actually a good friend to Santana, he never would have dated Brittany in the first place. You just don't date your friends' exes, or your exes' friends. Or your exes' exes. Sam's done all three. God, Glee is so messy.

 

And, if Sam had already developed feelings for Rachel, and later Mercedes came to him and said she was hurt, I don't think that would deter Sam from seeing Rachel if he wanted to. I think it's in-character for Sam to ~fall in love with whatever girl is closest to him that is breathing. And that's his most consistent character trait.

[jaytee1812]

I know Quinn cheated but to react by dating on of her closest friends also isn't the mark of a good guy.

Asking someone why they didn't enjoy being molested as a child isn't the mark of a good guy.

Mocking your friends crush isn't the mark of a good guy.

Persuing a woman when she tells you she's with someone else is not the mark of a good guy.

So how is Sam a good guy?

[Craphole Island]

As far as Sam dating Brittany being some slap in the face to Santana, I don't agree. I wouldn't say Sam and Santana were very close before. He's been on the other end of her tirades a few times (granted, he mostly took them in stride/jest) and he didn't give two shits when she broke up with him to "date" Karofsky.

Plus, I'd say compared to the shitty things most of these characters have done, Sam looks pretty good in comparison. Especially with regards to relationships. Quinn and Puck slept together and let Finn believe he was the baby daddy, Santana convinced Brittany to cheat on Artie because it's not really cheating, Blaine cheated on Kurt, Jake cheated on Marley, Finn convinced Quinn to cheat on Sam, Tina dumped Artie to upgrade, and this whole Glee club is so incestuous anyways. So I'd say by Glee standards, Sam is a pretty good guy.

[Ceeg]

But, I never claimed that any of those people were good. All of these people are assholes tbh. I just think the claim that Sam is somehow special and it's out of character for him to date his exes' friend, if the ex is hurt about it, is bogus. Sam isn't a good guy. No one on this show is a good guy. And one doesn't become a good guy simply by being ~less of an asshole than an asshole.