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Cranberry

By Cranberry
in Glee [V]

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SevenStars

SevenStars

(edited)

But you're talking about something outside the show. INSIDE the show, Artie and Beiste and Emma had no idea that Mercedes could sing soprano. And I'm not sure how you even determine that RIB most likely knew anything, since Amber didn't sing soprano in a song until a year and a half later.

 

My comment was not about the audience but about how the writers wrote the story in way that favored Rachel instead of Mercedes, so that the audience would most easily side with Rachel and see Mercedes as whining diva. 

 

 Ryan at least likely knew about Amber's ability because Glee is not the first production he worked with her on and she did an interview in which she stated that  she sang like that a lot during her times on stage. Also, since they picked her to sing that song, that means they already knew she could do it. If they didn't, I would think they wouldn't have picked her because there was no logical reason for Mercedes to have sang that song. 

Edited by SevenStars
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Ceeg
Ceeg

The show hit bottom when it wouldn't commit to one narrative. Either tell the high school Glee club story with rotating cast ala Degrassi, or move the fuck away from the high school and follow the cha

Cranberry
Cranberry

Marley was pretty much a friendless loser at the beginning, with aspirations of moving to New York and becoming a famous singer. She was taunted by Christian cheerleader Kitty, and eventually romanced

Ceeg
Ceeg

From the marketing thread:   Not completely. By the time the noobs came around, they were sharing a narrative with NYC. So, already in S4, the workload of the Lima narrative is cut out by 15-20%, d

tom87

tom87

(edited)

Seriously. Santana and Mercedes fighting over that  would have made tons more sense. It's a great part they're equally suited for. Though it would have messed with the Troubletones storyline.

Which is the only reason Rachel was picked over Mercedes so they could have the troubletones storyline.

Edited by tom87
dizzyizzy01

dizzyizzy01

(edited)

Even if she can hit the high C( which I don't think she can), voice type is about much more than just vocal range.

She can.  There is actual proof about this.  Besides actually doing it on Glee itself, like Matt's body of work, not everything Lea does is shown on Glee either.

 

Definition of soprano from wiki:

 

A soprano is the highest vocal range of all voice types which primarily refers to classical female singing voice, with diversification to reference male falsetto vocal range, as well as a member of an instrumental family with the highest range such as the soprano saxophone.  The soprano's vocal range (using scientific pitch notation) is from approximately middle C (C4) = 261 Hz to "high A" (A5) =880 Hz in choral music, or to "soprano C" (C6, two octaves above middle C) =1046 Hz or higher in operatic music. In four-part chorale style harmony, the soprano takes the highest part, which usually encompasses the melody.  The lyric soprano is the most common female singing voice.

 

I don't see where Lea doesn't fit the definition of a soprano?

Edited by dizzyizzy01
KatWay

KatWay

I think she's in the soprano range, though she can strain when it gets too high for her, her head voice especially isn't that strong. Her timbre sounds more like a mezzo-soprano's. Amber has a stronger high range in that regard (although I wouldn't say she's a true soprano either). Which is funny because Amber's high operatic soprano voice would have fit Maria even better than Lea's belt-heavy voice. If they'd actually let her sing an approprite audition song she'd have made more sense, vocally. But it wouldn't have fit their narrative. Just because I'm too lazy to look it up, in which song did Lea hit the C6?

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Sara2009

Sara2009

FWIW a friend of mine who is a drama teacher now and who was trying her hand at Broadway back in the mid 2000's (she only over got some off off BW parts) said Lea and Jenna both were

mezzo sopranos. She wasn't friends with them

or anything but just knew of them both before

they ever made it on Glee.

A couple of voice teachers I know of have classified them that way too.

I've also seen Amber classified as a soprano. I know she's had some classical training, but I don't know how much.

dizzyizzy01

dizzyizzy01

(edited)

Ability to hit soprano-esque notes =/= being a legit soprano. Neither Lea nor Amber are legit sopranos, as far as I know. If Amber got some classical training, she has more potential than Lea IMO. When it comes to LEGIT soprano.

 

/piano player

 

No neither are legit sopranos, but I think they're both lyric sopranos based on what wikipedia says. I agree that Amber probably has more potential, but as it stands they do have pretty similar ranges.  I have a tendency to believe what Lea has actually said about her voice though over people that have never met them.  I'm not an expert either.  I just play piano and violin, and the violin basically lives above middle C so...

 

But it wouldn't have fit their narrative. Just because I'm too lazy to look it up, in which song did Lea hit the C6?

 

 

I'd have to go look up songs, but I remember she did it kind of goofily during the beginning of the Diva episode.  It's just in the background of her doing vocal warm ups though.  

Edited by dizzyizzy01
SNeaker

SNeaker

(edited)

But not in that song. The song goes:

Girls: Life is alright in America.

Boys: If you're all white in America.

 

So, just to be clear, your view is that no white students should have been allowed to play any of the Puerto Rican characters in the High School production of West Side Story?

 

I guess it's a good thing McKinley never put on a production of Fiddler On the Roof. (And yet I do recall people taking offense when it was suggested that Santana didn't quite fit the role of an awkward nebbishy Jewish girl.)

Edited by SNeaker
jaytee1812

jaytee1812

So, just to be clear, your view is that no white students should have been allowed to play any of the Puerto Rican characters in the High School production of West Side Story?

 

I guess it's a good thing McKinley never put on a production of Fiddler On the Roof. (And yet I do recall people taking offense when it was suggested that Santana didn't quite fit the role of an awkward Jewish girl from New York.)

No, but have a white guy sing that song is a bit off.

It was also just stupid casting, they should've had Puck play Riff and Mike play Bernardo.

It also highlights how diverse the male cast of Glee really wasn't.

jaytee1812

jaytee1812

But it's a high school in the middle of nowhere Ohio.  It's pretty white there...

Then they shouldn't pat themselves on the back with the diversity card. The majority of minorities consistently on the show were mostly women so it didn't interfere with their straight, white male hero complex.

Also Lima's 70% white and over 25% African American/black so you could argue black characters were under-represented. If we were going on the actual make up of the place itself.

dizzyizzy01

dizzyizzy01

Then they shouldn't pat themselves on the back with the diversity card. The majority of minorities consistently on the show were mostly women so it didn't interfere with their straight, white male hero complex.

Also Lima's 70% white and over 25% African American/black so you could argue black characters were under-represented. If we were going on the actual make up of the place itself.

 

Well if we went by the census, then the show was over-represented with Asian and Hispanic kids.  The show did an above-average job with diversity in casting.  It's not perfect by any means, and I'm certainly not saying it's some gold standard.  The whole industry has a very long way to go, but when Glee premiered, the diversity of its cast was pretty unusual.

 

With regards to the WSS casting though, I don't think the any of the casting choices were based on race.  It was what songs they wanted to perform on the show and who they wanted to sing them.

jaytee1812

jaytee1812

 With regards to the WSS casting though, I don't think the any of the casting choices were based on race.  It was what songs they wanted to perform on the show and who they wanted to sing them.

I think this is true about a lot of the criticism Glee gets about race and gender. Partly because it's written by white men who look at the world the way white men do. I don't think 'I Kissed a Girl' was meant to be misogynist but it was. I don't think the Jake/Marley/Ryder triangle and him cheating with Bree was suppose to be racist, but it was.

I actually think those in charge have no idea that half the storylines they do could be construed as racist or sexist.

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Glorfindel

Glorfindel

(edited)

Even if she can hit the high C( which I don't think she can), voice type is about much more than just vocal range.

Exactly. There's also timbre, tessitura, breakpoints, how low someone can sing (not just how high), and the 'comfortable' vocal range in which someone likes to sing and sounds the best.

The capability to belt and the notes (height) one can belt actually says almost nothing about the voice type. And just because a girl can occasionaly hit a high C (C6) doesn't mean she is a soprano. Let me know when she can hit an E6 or F6 on her better days, and then we'll talk.

 

I'm 100% sure Lea is a (lyric) mezzo-soprano. She (Rachel) was imo miscast as Maria, as she was straining on the high notes in WSS.

I think Amber is more likely a soprano, although she also could be a mezzo-soprano with very easy access to the higher notes. She did regularly and very powerful hit that high C on the show though, so that's why I'm going for her being a soprano.

 

My comment was not about the audience but about how the writers wrote the story in way that favored Rachel instead of Mercedes, so that the audience would most easily side with Rachel and see Mercedes as whining diva.

They did the same with Blaine and Kurt.

Where Rachel and Blaine were 'allowed' to audition with very well-known WSS songs (and were even wearing clothing resembling Tony and Maria) Kurt sang a girl/Fanny Brice song and Mercedes a diva song, bringing out the exact qualities and prejudices about them and their voices (in the episode they even cut the more Tony-like lower parts and Kurt's belting out of 'I Am The Greatest Star') that would turn off the not so liberal/colorblind audience from them (as Artie, Beiste and Emma did in Kurt's case, and were highly doubting Mercedes' fit as Maria for).

 

Of course in canon their audition song choices are on Mercedes and Kurt, but who are we kidding here? The deck was conveniently stacked against them in the writers' room, so most (casual) viewers would agree with Blaine and Rachel getting the leads in the end.

Edited by Glorfindel
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Danielle87

Danielle87

My opinion on the WSS casting:

 

Rachel/Blaine: Looks better, but sung worse. I'm a fan of their voices, but I did not like their songs for this, some sounded a mess actually. I did like Blaine's Something's Coming, but they lowered the key on the songs for Darren, and while at the time I didn't realize it, looking back, I believe they lowered it for Lea as well because her voice wasn't right for the part either.

 

Mercedes/Kurt: Would have been sang better, but looked worse. Kurt doing the love scenes as Tony would have been laughable, and Mercedes is too big to play Maria. Gotta keep it real.

 

I like to think they did WSS even though most of the cast didn't fit the main roles just to have Santana play Anita.

SevenStars

SevenStars

Mercedes/Kurt: Would have been sang better, but looked worse. Kurt doing the love scenes as Tony would have been laughable, and Mercedes is too big to play Maria. Gotta keep it real

 

What does Mercedes weight have to do with the role ? What requirement of the role wouldn't Mercedes have been able to do because of her weight ?

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Danielle87

Danielle87

(edited)

What does Mercedes weight have to do with the role ? What requirement of the role wouldn't Mercedes have been able to do because of her weight ?

 

It's not a requirement, but every Maria they have cast in Broadway to my knowledge have been thin and beautiful. Tony falls in love with her at first sight, so that right there heavily implies that she's supposed to be a looker. IMO, someone that looks like Mercedes would not be believable in a role like Maria.

 

I mean, for a high school production Mercedes looks probably wouldn't be an issue, but I had saw another post about the possibility of a Mercedes/Kurt pairing, so I had how that particular pairing would look together in my mind.

Edited by Danielle87
SevenStars

SevenStars

(edited)

It's not a requirement, but every Maria they have cast in Broadway to my knowledge have been thin and beautiful. Tony falls in love with her at first sight, so that right there heavily implies that she's supposed to be a looker. IMO, someone that looks like Mercedes would not be believable in a role like Maria.

 

 

So you are saying Mercedes isn't beautiful enough for a man to fall in love with her at first sight? You do know that love at first doesn't really have anything to do with look but something more powerful than that. Which means Mercedes can be it.

 

If you are talking about lust on first sight ( which is really about looks) then Mercedes can still fit that role because there are plenty of men who would prefer Mercedes' looks over Rachel's. Just because society claim that most men would prefer Rachel doesn't mean ALL men. So a Tony could exist who could fall in love and in lust at first sight with Mercedes over Rachel. 

Edited by SevenStars
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Danielle87

Danielle87

So you are saying Mercedes isn't beautiful enough for a man to fall in love with her at first sight? You do know that love at first doesn't really have anything to do with look but something more powerful than that. Which means Mercedes can be it.

 

If you are talking about lust on first sight ( which is really about looks) then Mercedes can still fit that role because there are plenty of men who would prefer Mercedes' looks over Rachel's. Just because society claim that most men would prefer Rachel doesn't mean ALL men. So a Tony could exist who could fall in love and in lust at first sight with Mercedes over Rachel. 

 

Lookswise, no I don't think she has the right look for the role. There's a reason why women like Natalie Wood and Josefina Scaglione were chosen to portray Maria. They were both gorgeous in addition to talented.

 

Since Glee was a high school production, unconventionally casting is more okay but even then it made more sense to have either Rachel or Tina play the role (if WSS just had to be done on Glee, which it probably shouldn't have been). Mercedes wasn't right for the role in any way.

SevenStars

SevenStars

Lookswise, no I don't think she has the right look for the role. There's a reason why women like Natalie Wood and Josefina Scaglione were chosen to portray Maria. They were both gorgeous in addition to talented.

 

Since Glee was a high school production, unconventionally casting is more okay but even then it made more sense to have either Rachel or Tina play the role (if WSS just had to be done on Glee, which it probably shouldn't have been). Mercedes wasn't right for the role in any way.

 

Just because they cast these women to play the role doesn't mean that Mercedes is not beautiful enough that Tony, not the whole population of guys that society have condition into believing that only those type of woman are beautiful enough for a guy to fall for her at first sight, couldn't fall for Mercedes. The play call for one guy to see a girl and fall for her at first sight. There is no reason that Mercedes couldn't be that one girl and Tony be that one guy. 

 

Clearly, you and I will never agree this, so I think we should just agree to disagree. 

jaytee1812

jaytee1812

From the Hurt Locker Part 1

About Sue's accusing Will of not knowing who Matt, aka "Shaft" was, this from the woman who called Tina & Mike "Asian" & "Other Asian."  

And in The Purple Piano Project she destroys the piano then says: "I'm sorry, I just realised that song might be the national anthem of whatever country you're from."

Mike says "that's offensive." But she pretty much gets away with it.

I've been trying to figure out, is that even more offensive given neither actor was born in the US?

SilverShadow

SilverShadow

I was one of the (probably like 5) people who would have preferred Glee feature more musical theater songs and less hits of the week, (though I realized pretty early on which way the wind was blowing), so that was never really something I watched the show 'for'. It might be that they can no longer afford the licenses to do so many current top 40 songs. Especially since they did "Let It Go" in the premiere and that can't have been cheap.

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fakeempress

fakeempress

(edited)

I am a doo-wop junkie even though I was born like 30 years after its heyday. I don't mind Glee doing the oldies I like. There are a couple from an upcoming episode that I love, while I can't say I was thrilled to hear them do Problems, Sing or Let It Go, songs that I don't really care for or are overplayed. I'm not really a top 40 person so I couldn't care less about the Fox song or Blurred Lines, for instance.

 

I've always preferred when they use the songs well integrated to support the plot, and not just because this song is the latest hit, and they must have it to get the iTunes sales.

 

Is Don't Stop Believing still their best sold recording ?  

Edited by fakeempress
tom87

tom87

I am a doo-wop junkie even though I was born like 30 years after its heyday. I don't mind Glee doing the oldies I like. There are a couple from an upcoming episode that I love, while I can't say I was thrilled to hear them do Problems, Sing or Let It Go, songs that I don't really care for or are overplayed. I'm not really a top 40 person so I couldn't care less about the Fox song or Blurred Lines, for instance.

 

I've always preferred when they use the songs well integrated to support the plot, and not just because this song is the latest hit, and they must have it to get the iTunes sales.

 

Is Don't Stop Believing still their best sold recording ?  

I prefer the older stuff too.

 

And yes the pilot version of Don't stop believing is the best selling still.

Ikki

Ikki

(edited)

Someone I work with mentioned today that she had been binge watching Glee recently. I asked if she was all caught up with it, and she said that she was on the second or third season. I just went, "Oh, it gets so much worse."

I couldn't even fully articulate why when she asked because I was too overwhelmed by the "everything-ness" of the answer.

Edited by Ikki
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Myrna123

Myrna123

Someone I work with mentioned today that she had been binge watching Glee recently. I asked if she was all caught up with it, and she said that she was on the second or third season. I just went, "Oh, it gets so much worse."

I couldn't even fully articulate why when she asked because I was to overwhelmed by the "everything-ness" of the answer.

It's a question for the ages. Does RIB's attention mean more or less atrocity? Did Fox stick their nose in or not stick their nose in enough? Did the actors used to push back about the awfulness but then get marginalized so that all that was left were actors who didn't talk back? Did those who used to care stop caring or was it those who used to not care started caring? Can a bad show seriously just keep getting worse and worse and worse? Is there really and truly no basement for awfulness?

jaytee1812

jaytee1812

It's a question for the ages. Does RIB's attention mean more or less atrocity? Did Fox stick their nose in or not stick their nose in enough? Did the actors used to push back about the awfulness but then get marginalized so that all that was left were actors who didn't talk back? Did those who used to care stop caring or was it those who used to not care started caring? Can a bad show seriously just keep getting worse and worse and worse? Is there really and truly no basement for awfulness?

The thing I can never figure out is why did no actor ever leave? Basically any actor who was ever a regular was basically cut, but no-one ever left. I mean your not telling this group of actors wouldn't get other work. Those that were cut have done pretty well, but it seem that those in charge say jump and all these actors say how high. I don't get it.

Camera One

Camera One

There would probably be lots of reasons for that... not biting the hand that feeds you, liking your colleagues, etc.  A lot of actors don't even watch the finished product, so they might not necessarily be that invested in how it all came together.  If they generally like going into work, saying a few lines, and learning some dance routines and performing them, why leave, especially if the time demand reduced in the later seasons, and they had time to pursue other opportunities in their spare time.

jaytee1812

jaytee1812

There would probably be lots of reasons for that... not biting the hand that feeds you, liking your colleagues, etc.  A lot of actors don't even watch the finished product, so they might not necessarily be that invested in how it all came together.  If they generally like going into work, saying a few lines, and learning some dance routines and performing them, why leave, especially if the time demand reduced in the later seasons, and they had time to pursue other opportunities in their spare time.

I think all of that is true, but no-one walking away, I find strange. I actually find Jane Lynch, Matthew Morrison and Chris Colfer the strangest. Apart from a paycheck I don't see what any of them is getting out of this final season. And I don't believe they wouldn't have alternative work. (Which I believe of others who've taken every paycheck Glee has offered).

phoenixrising

phoenixrising

I think all of that is true, but no-one walking away, I find strange. I actually find Jane Lynch, Matthew Morrison and Chris Colfer the strangest. Apart from a paycheck I don't see what any of them is getting out of this final season. And I don't believe they wouldn't have alternative work. (Which I believe of others who've taken every paycheck Glee has offered).

I'm assuming they're trapped in their contracts. Didn't Matt and Jane sign a seven-year contract? I think I'm more confused as to why they didn't rework a contract to let Matt go, since they don't seem to like him, or the character.

shantown

shantown

they wouldn't have fashioned this years VA story line if they didn't like Matt or his character and didnt want him around.

Ehh, I don't know. Stunt casting for Max George, an already known choir to sing, they seemed to want this whole "choir vs. choir" thing. I could see them easily have found some arbitrary reason that Kurt was in charge of VA to make it Blaine vs Kurt vs Rachel rather than Blaine vs Kurt/Rachel vs Will. Matt's been underused for years, and even Becky is getting more this year than Schue.

Pink ranger

Pink ranger

(edited)

But the point is that he is still there in every episode this season except for one, working with all the cast crew and producers. If they didn't like him he wouldn't be there at all. And there are more spoilers for Will in later episodes .

I think it's exaggerating to says he's had less than Becky who's just that that one story about her boyfriend.

Edited by Pink ranger
fakeempress

fakeempress

(edited)

I think all of that is true, but no-one walking away, I find strange. I actually find Jane Lynch, Matthew Morrison and Chris Colfer the strangest. Apart from a paycheck I don't see what any of them is getting out of this final season. And I don't believe they wouldn't have alternative work. (Which I believe of others who've taken every paycheck Glee has offered).

Even though it's a creative field, it's still a job for them. Do people always walk away from their job when they don't like something (even anything about it)? This is a steady paycheck almost guaranteed for a few years, and even then there is really no guarantee the show will stay the number of seasons they're contracted for, on the air.  For newcomers to primetime such a show that took off is practically a dream come true. The kids esp. were on their first mortgages. I don't want to check how many unemployed actors there are in HW who would kill for their jobs. 

 

It's not that easy to leave. There are no guarantees once they leave that they will get steady work, or that their projects won't be stalled, etc. Chris said he has talked only about the projects that took off, but he stressed that he hasn't talked about many that didn't. (One of them is probably the asylum movie he was developing). 

 

Many times I've seen fans who are unhappy or really pissed with their favourite characters being shortchanged, project that feeling onto the actors and assume they must be totally unhappy and willing to jump ship. I'm sure if the perfect opportunity they can't refuse would come along, many actors will try to jump ship but as it is, Ryan has seemingly accommodated a lot of side projects of the young cast. I think it's only when you start getting steady movie offers like I think Dianna did (for many reasons, one main reason being she's the beautiful white blonde type HW so loves). For jumping ship, I think they have to really hate working on the show, have unsurmountable personality conflicts, this sort of thing. I think they look more pragmatically at their job than the fans and don't want to burn bridges when they can help it, because that's their livelihood, unlike for the fans.

Edited by fakeempress
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