All Episodes Talk: Walk With Me

[Bastet]

5 hours ago, deaja said:

My most unpopular opinion is that I don’t like Donna.

Donna was never as cute or clever as the writers thought she was.  Part of it may be a Janel Maloney thing for me, as I think she's so overly-earnest on her Sports Night episode she cheapens what is supposed to be a quietly powerful dressing down.  She lacks subtlety, and it really shows among a cast like this.  But it's also the writing, as they shoe-horned her into so many scenes with senior staff when no other assistant was present that I found myself resenting her.  Which was a bummer, because she's a character I could have really liked (and I do like many moments of hers).

I had quit watching by the time she moved up in her career, but given how I felt about her in the first four seasons, I probably would have found it unearned.

And I am completely turned off by even the thought of Donna and Josh in a romantic relationship, so very glad I did not stick around to see that.  I never saw any such chemistry between them, and found narrative hints at there being buried feelings quite forced.  As I've said before, they are this odd situation where each one is simultaneously not good enough/too good for the other. 

[ProudMary]

I don't know if anyone else caught this Monday night on The Last Word with Lawrence O'Donnell  on MSNBC. Lawrence was having a conversation with Jen Psaki, where she mentioned that she had worked for six White House Chiefs of Staff, all of whom were men as there's never been a woman in the position. Lawrence took a little detour and basically claimed credit for the one fictional WHCOS, C.J. Cregg. He said that he pushed very hard for C.J. to be promoted to the COS position because of the greatness of Allison Janney, but also because he felt the character was the best fit. I've been searching for a video clip, but I can't find one. It was a somewhat strange sidebar.

I think Allison Janney is a great actor and Press Secretary C.J. Cregg was exceptional, but I hated C.J. as COS. 

[schnauzergirl]

Am I the only one who had the sense C.J. knew she wasn't up for the job?  It's been a long time since I watched those episodes and my own belief that this was a really bad idea might be coloring my recollection.  

[CheshireCat]

On 9/23/2023 at 5:56 PM, storyskip said:

Okay. Re-watch # 100+ in the books, time for some unpopular opinions.

1. I found the storyline of CJ becoming COS to be patronizing, forced and just bad. I am a female viewer and I feel about that storyline the way Ainsley did about the ERA. I did not need John Wells and the other MALE writers and producers of the show to come along and patronize me, as a viewer, with the message of "Oh look at us being all progressive and making this female character the second most powerful person in the WW universe!!"

Do not get me wrong. Allison Janney is a FANTASTIC actress and up until she was made COS I loved the character of CJ Cregg. But 3/4 of an episode devoted to making bumbling idiots out of Josh and Toby, does NOT set up an organic reason to have CJ jump so many more qualified people into the COS office.

I never felt like she was making bumbling idiots out of Josh and Toby but provided a much needed damper on their very, very huge egos. I guess, you need an ego like that when you work the jobs they worked, still, they were so full of themselves at times.

With that said, making CJ CoS never made sense to me and I think you make a good point. I've always felt that they made her CoS and then didn't use her or gave her a purpose, so your take sounds pretty good. It's like they were thinking they were doing so much better than Sorkin with regards to female characters because they made CJ CoS when that's really all they did and then didn't do anything with it. 

 

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Josh was probably the in universe obvious successor, but in my opinion there was more set up from season 1 for Toby to go into the role. Toby, who had been with the President since the first campaign. Toby, who was shown to have political savvy. Toby, who could have been an interesting foil for the President, because while Leo knew how to 'handle' the President, Toby had been shown he wasn't afraid to stand his ground and openly argue with the President.

I think Toby was too righteous for the job. Yes, a CoS should be willing to challenge the president and play Devil's Advocate but, I think, their main objective needs to be to protect the President. Yes, Toby was loyal but I think he was too willing to challenge the president to be CoS.

I also don't think he would have been good at handling the WH staff, Cabinet or Congress for that matter. As you say, CJ was not a political operative but I don't think Toby was either and between the two of them, CJ was the better "diplomat" and also the better "people's person".

Josh would have been the obvious choice and, based on the character of the characters and what I believe a CoS should be, I think Will would actually have made the most sense after Josh. Or someone from the outside.

Although, things might have been different if they had actually given CJ something to do. Then again, at that point of the show, most of the WH characters didn't have much to do anymore other than wait for time to pass.

6 hours ago, deaja said:

 I think Kate is my least favorite character on the show (barring characters we are obviously supposed to dislike).

I still haven't figured out her purpose. I mean, I know what her WH job was but why was she introduced as a cast member?

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My most unpopular opinion is that I don’t like Donna. For all she claims Josh held her back, we routinely see him include her in higher level stuff.

I mostly like her because she, too, talks back and puts a damper on Josh's ego at times. The "we're the kings of the world" attitude Josh, Toby and Sam display at times is one of the things I find the most annoying of the show. (It also provides some humor but I do think characters like CJ and Donna are desperately needed to not let the egos get out of hand too much. Of course, Donna didn't need to have the background that she had for that and could actually have had a college degree and proper resume).

[Guest]

1 hour ago, CheshireCat said:

 

Josh would have been the obvious choice and, based on the character of the characters and what I believe a CoS should be, I think Will would actually have made the most sense after Josh. Or someone from the outside.

It’s also always sort of bugged me that when Jed and Leo are fighting, Leo says he will give Jed a list of names but then after his heart attack he says there is only one option. 

[storyskip]

14 hours ago, CheshireCat said:

I never felt like she was making bumbling idiots out of Josh and Toby but provided a much needed damper on their very, very huge egos. I guess, you need an ego like that when you work the jobs they worked, still, they were so full of themselves at times.

 

Just to clarify. I did not mean to imply that the character of CJ made bumbling idiots out of anyone.  It was the WRITERS/PRODUCER who deliberately made bumbling idiots out of Josh, Toby and Will in the episode, so they could write/highlight the need for a new CoS and then put the spotlight on CJ as being so deft at identifying how they needed to organize, that she is the obvious/only choice.

[Guest]

I also felt they took away all of CJ's lightness and humor once she became CoS. Like they wanted her to have gravitas, but that included making her ruder. Season 7 when she was rude to the waitress while having dinner with Danny was an example - had it been building to a resolution of her realizing she was off her bearings and it was impacting her, that would have been one thing, but it wasn't.

[bluegirl147]

I liked the idea of Donna more than the reality that was Donna. I agree with @Bastet I saw very little chemistry between Josh and Donna.  On the other hand I didn't care for Amy but thought she had oodles of chemistry with Josh.

Did not like CJ as COS. I mostly liked the character of CJ overall especially when they focused on her being Press Secretary.  When they would deviate to her personal life I found her less interesting.  Except with Danny. Probably because he was related to her job.

 

[jah1986]

Currently doing another re-watch, this one with mom, who never watched the show when it was airing. We're in season 7, Two Weeks Out was the episode we just finished. Took mom a while to warm up to the Santos/Vinick story, she just wanted to stay with the White House staff. We agreed that CJ was one of the dumbest choices for COS. CJ became COS and her communication style became, "do it because I said so, I'm the COS and you have to do whatever I say because I'm the COS".  Neither of us ever warmed to Kate Harper mainly because she came along and the totally awesome Nancy McNally, who was her boss, disappeared. Now mom is just watching each remaining episode asking is this the one where Leo dies? But she really did come around on the campaign trail, so it wasn't all bad at the end.

[justmehere]

My thoughts about CJ as COS and Donna as over-rated have already been noted by others. I didn't hate the Kate character though I didn't really warm to her. However, I like Mary McCormack a lot, so that tempered my view of Kate a bit. The whole tone of the show changed so much, which made it harder to care. There was a lot of dry policy talk all around without the personal feeling it had before - less balance in the writing, less or little heart. I also couldn't warm up to Annabeth - much as I like Kristin Chenoweth - though she had a more personal vibe. 

My unpopular opinion is that I often had trouble taking Josh seriously in such a high-level position. To me, he too often came across as a clown, not to mention ineffectual - thinking he would easily get something done and then falling on his face. He was loyal to Leo; we saw that clearly, and I loved that about him. On the other hand, we were told how much he did and how capable he was, but I often couldn't see it. The time Jed detailed all that Leo had done in a day, I believed it. When there was mention of the number of staff Josh was responsible for and all he did, I thought, "really?" I certainly liked Bradley Whitford, but it felt like there was a disconnect between how the character was written and portrayed and what the position must entail. Toby I believed. Sam felt somewhat balanced. CJ was great as press secretary. I liked Josh as a person but had trouble believing his position. I'm not saying he should have been serious all the time or been 100% successful in everything. None of the others were either. I don't know. It's just how I felt.

[labresq]

West Wing connection...  Emily's List.  The organization that Toby told CJ that Bartlett was impressed with ( which wasn't true) is in the news today because the person appointed to Sen. Feinstein's seat is associated with it!

[Bastet]

13 minutes ago, labresq said:

The organization that Toby told CJ that Bartlett was impressed with ( which wasn't true)

It wasn't true that Bartlet was impressed with her work for EMILY's list; he'd never heard of her (but Leo had).  Hopefully he was impressed with the organization itself, given its success in getting Democratic pro-choice women elected to office across the country.

[labresq]

Yes I could have been more clear.  That whole scene which was CJ felling into her pool was just so wonderful...right down to the package of Goldfish  crackers floating away.

[bluegirl147]

8 hours ago, labresq said:

That whole scene which was CJ felling into her pool was just so wonderful...right down to the package of Goldfish  crackers floating away.

While I had heard of Emily's List before it was this episode that I learned what EMILY meant.  Early money is like yeast.  It makes the dough rise.

[ProudMary]

Sadly, we don't have to do Six Degrees in memory of Matthew Perry. 😔 His dramatic chops were quite a revelation in the too-few epidodes in which he appeared. His character, Joe Quincy had a huge impact on two major TWW story arcs.

It's a sad day. 

 

[ProudMary]

Hi everyone!

The Primetimer Awards have opened for nominations today and there's once again a category where The West Wing is eligible! There are several holiday categories including Favorite Christmas TV Episode, which transcend the stated eligibiliy window. IMO, The West Wing has three Christmas episodes that are of a quality level above almost anything else, but I've chosen to nominate only one, "Noel." I think "Noel" is the Christmas episode that we can all get behind. (Side note: "In Excelsis Deo" is my favorite of the West Wing Christmas episodes, but I didn't nominate it because I think it's important that we all support one episode, instead of splitting votes.) Here's the link to the  category, so you can follow what else is being nominated. The first round of official voting won't start until December 11th. 

Let's vote "Noel" to a victory!

https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/142066-snuggle-season-favorite-christmas-tv-episode/#comment-8229923

 

[Orcinus orca]

3 hours ago, ProudMary said:

Side note: "In Excelsis Deo" is my favorite of the West Wing Christmas episodes

My favorite of all time but also one that results in floods of tears no matter how often I see it.

[ProudMary]

Voting is now open for first round voting in the Winter Primetimer Awards and we have an opportunity to vote for The West Wing in the category, "Favorite Christmas TV Episode." First round voting is multiple choice. I'm choosing to vote only for "Noel."

Here is the direct link to the category. Voting for this round is open from today, December 11th through Thursday, December 14th.

Please vote!

Snuggle Season: Favorite Christmas TV Episode

[Bastet]

I was glad to see someone nominate Excelsis (I used my three on other things, as I had about a dozen contenders, and that was one of the ones I figured someone else would nominate), but I guess it turned out it was after there were already 25 nominations, so it's not one of the nominees.  Boo; I like it far better than Noel.  But Noel will still get one of my votes in this first round.

[ProudMary]

I'm hoping that like "Favorite Christmas Movie," this category will also become a perennial Hall of Fame-type category during the Winter Primetimers (last year's movie winner, It's a Wonderful Life, is now retired) and that next year we can band together and get what will hopefully be a second WW victory for "In Excelsis Deo," which is also my favorite of the West Wing Christmas episodes. "Noel," by a very slight margin, is the highest rated of the WW Christmas episodes, which is why I nominated it. 

JMHO, but I actually think that "Holy Night," which is only the third best WW  Christmas episode, is still miles ahead of much of the schlock nominated! I hope we ultimately get a chance to retire all three. 🙂

I think our main competition will come from The Big Bang Theory--that is a delightful episode!--and from Friends. I also think Doctor Who is a strong challenger, but with three episodes of the series nominated, the Doctor Who votes will be split. 

[SoMuchTV]

Well thanks a lot y’all, I had to watch Excelcis and now Noel is up next, then Holy Night, so I can refresh my memory! 

[ProudMary]

2023 Winter Primetimer Awards Round Two voting is now open and "Noel" made it to the finals! 👏

Let's vote it to victory. Here's the direct link to the category:

Snuggle Season: Favorite Christmas TV Episode

 

[ProudMary]

Wow, we seem to have lost A LOT of posts in our thread here since the recent updates. 😢

Anyway, Mary McCormack and Josh Malina have made a couple of interesting posts on Twitter/X over the past few days. We'll have to see what they're up to on Wednesday. 

 

[ProudMary]

Book details at its Penguin Random House website page.

https://sites.prh.com/whats-next-book

[ProudMary]

From Season 1, Episode 9, "The Short List."

Josh Lyman: [after a press conference that claimed 1 out of 3 White House staffers takes drugs] Five White House staffers in the room... I would like to say to the 1.6 of you who are stoned right now that it's time to share.

[Driad]

Since it's State of the Union day, here's a bit from "He Shall from Time to Time":
President Josiah Bartlet: We meant "stronger" here, right?
Sam Seaborn: What does it say?
President Josiah Bartlet: I'm proud to report our country is stranger than it was a year ago?
Sam Seaborn: That's a typo.
President Josiah Bartlet: Could go either way.

[CheshireCat]

I loved that rehearsal scene, from the dialogue between Josh and CJ to the comments Bartlet made about the typos and how the staff tried to urge him along. I always laugh at it; thanks for the reminder.

[Bastet]

15 hours ago, CheshireCat said:

from the dialogue between Josh and CJ

Oh dear, Allison Janney's delivery when Josh asks C.J. if Bartlet's glands are swollen is perfect.  Written, it's simple -- Damn.  You know what I forgot to do today?  I forgot to check the president's glands. -- but she makes it art.  And Bradley Whitford is great as clueless Josh fails to pick up on her sarcasm until the final line, and just keeps asking her "What?" in all seriousness. 

 

 

[labresq]

With the tragedy of the bridge collapse in Baltimore, is anybody else having flashbacks to the "Francis Scott Key Key" episode?  Poor C.J. not being able to keep it together:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80mHu_nRLms

 

[Orcinus orca]

2 hours ago, labresq said:

With the tragedy of the bridge collapse in Baltimore, is anybody else having flashbacks to the "Francis Scott Key Key" episode?  Poor C.J. not being able to keep it together:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80mHu_nRLms

I thought of that immediately as soon as I heard the name of that bridge!

[Ed D]

retracted.

Edited July 12 by Ed D

[Orcinus orca]

1 hour ago, Ed D said:

I'm searching for a "reunion" or "postscript" show that was broadcast about four years after Season 7.

Was that the one they did as a stage play in black and white?  With another actor filling in for John  Spencer?

[Driad]

During the Apollo 11 mission, William Safire wrote a speech for Nixon to use in case of "mishap."  Toby Ziegler would approve.

[ProudMary]

Et tu, Aaron Sorkin?

[caitmcg]

One of the answers in the Sunday NY Times crossword is

Spoiler

post hoc, ergo propter hoc

 

[caitmcg]

15 hours ago, ProudMary said:

Et tu, Aaron Sorkin?

Yesterday, he had an opinion piece in the NY Times saying that were he writing their script, he’d say the Democrats should nominate Romney. 

[ProudMary]

19 hours ago, caitmcg said:

Yesterday, he had an opinion piece in the NY Times saying that were he writing their script, he’d say the Democrats should nominate Romney. 

Hence, my comment above. 😄

As yesterday's story continued to unfold, I was thinking, "I bet Sorkin wishes he'd have kept his mouth shut for just one more day."

[ProudMary]

Martin Sheen and Mary McCormack appeared on Inside with Jen Psaki earlier today. Jen is evidently quite a fan. 

 

[SoMuchTV]

Hey! Did this forum get unvaulted?!  All of a sudden there are a bunch of “new” threads (with last posts 5+ years ago). Not sure if someone requested that, or it’s part of some ongoing effort from station management. Either way, thanks!

[Bastet]

2 hours ago, SoMuchTV said:

Hey! Did this forum get unvaulted?!  All of a sudden there are a bunch of “new” threads (with last posts 5+ years ago). Not sure if someone requested that, or it’s part of some ongoing effort from station management. Either way, thanks!

They said, in the Site Business section, when they first reorganized things to go back to every show getting a forum, they would at some point un-vault, on at least a limited basis, the old forums.  So it's probably a work in progress starting with the larger old forums.  This one was big enough it almost escaped being vaulted in the first place, so it makes sense for it to be the first/among the first.

[SoMuchTV]

On 2/12/2024 at 1:25 AM, ProudMary said:

Book details at its Penguin Random House website page.

https://sites.prh.com/whats-next-book

Now that we've been unvaulted and have a media thread, I posted over there that for any TWWW podcast listeners, there's a new episode in the feed where they talk about this.

[Fool to cry]

On 7/21/2024 at 8:35 AM, ProudMary said:

Et tu, Aaron Sorkin?

His timing was hilariously perfect! 😆 

 

[juno]

Just started a rewatch. I must have watched this show half a dozen times since the original. Maybe I have been watching a bunch of crap lately, but I am blown away by how incredible this is. Each episode has brought me to tears and I am overwhelmed by how great it is. If ever there was a perfect tv show this would be it.

[MaryMitch]

It really holds up well, doesn't it?

[juno]

18 minutes ago, MaryMitch said:

It really holds up well, doesn't it?

I am in the second season now. Mind blowing good.

I think the two parters on the gunmen might be the best episodes I have ever seen.

[Orcinus orca]

9 hours ago, juno said:

I think the two parters on the gunmen might be the best episodes I have ever seen.

Wait until you have seen it all.  It will be impossible to choose a best.  So many really amazing stories, so may great performances.