Unpopular Opinions: Total Crackpot Thread

[Melancholy]

I love this type of thread on other shows so I thought I'd bring to the West Wing board. 

 

I'll start with some stuff I've said before.

 

(1) I never rooted for CJ/Danny because I think Danny is an asshole, even if he's an interesting and funny asshole. 

 

(2) I really like the post-Sorkin seasons, and I think I might like S7 just as much or even more than S1 and S4. 

 

(3) I love Amy Gardner a lot, from beginning to end. I like her as a political player whose love interest days were behind her in S4-7 (excepting her's and Josh's little S5 fling) but I also think that her's and Josh's pre-500 Days of Summeresque "This Is A Story About a Political Break-Up" in S3 is one of the best planned, moving romance stories in the history of the show. 

Edited January 6, 2016 by Melancholy

[Guest]

-I don't think Season 5 is as bad as a lot of you seem to.  It was one of the weaker seasons, but I think overall I prefer it to Season 7.

 

-CJ's Jackal performance made me highly uncomfortable.

 

-Donna was super annoying seasons 1-2.  She had a few redeeming moments, but not nearly enough. This is part of why it took me until the end of season 6 to ship Josh/Donna.

[BizBuzz]

I love it, thank you Melancholy for starting the thread.

 

I am in the middle of a rewatch, and into the whole Secret Service Mark Harmon story line and every time it starts, I cringe.  I cannot stand the story, I don't like the Shareef thing.  I love Mark Harmon, but didn't like his part on the show.

 

Season 5 is my least favorite, but it's still better than most television, and it has one of my fave episodes, The Supremes.  

 

I like Amy (but love Mary Louise Parker, so there you go) ... and I hated that she basically pined for Josh, because I don't think Josh is all that good a catch.  ::giggle::

 

I didn't like Matt Santos (but not crazy about Jimmy Smits) and wanted Vinick to win.  Glad he got secretary of state.

 

That is all for now, I am sure I will add more as I go through another rewatch.

[Melancholy]

Deaja, I agree with your last two opinions. I think CJ's Jackal was somewhat like on Mad Men, Megan's Zous Bisou dance- the coworkers yacking about it was more entertaining than the actual performance. I think it's hilarious that CJ is so much a Born Performer but I prefer in smaller moments, her rendition of in ascending order of quality, drunkenly singing American Pie with some big shot Senator, using Toby's irritation at sand in his shoes to start crooning, and her impromptu Keep Cool Boy to put Sam in his place for making the entire West Wing freak-out over a silly memoir ALL to the more famous Jackal. 

 

I don't care for Sorkin!Donna. She actually ticked off more in S3-4 than S1-2. I think she should have been fired for perjuring herself in War Crimes and for lying that she gave the "Everybody's very loyal to everyone around here unless you wear a uniform" quote so Jack Reese wouldn't face the consequences of his own treachery and pettiness, right when Jed was considering commanding troops to intervene in Kundu as Commander in Chief.  I also hated Jack Reese from the very start, and didn't even buy their "romance". And I didn't admire her for speaking truth to power for diminishing Abbey's complaining to her supposed friends about losing her medical license because Abbey lied for Jed. Of all people, Donna should have had some compassion for the ethical and career sacrifices women make for the men they love. 

 

I agree BizBuzz about preferring Vinick to Santos. By a lot. I actually did like Santos to some extent, but Vinick is my favorite non-Sorkin original character. A lot of that was because of Alan Alda- but there was also a ton of heart to him. With just a few scenes, it was stunning how much the Vinnick/Shelia relationship felt sweet and meaningful and real. Santos couldn't get that chemistry with any of his staff members, including Josh despite his greater screentime. 

[Bastet]

- A Josh/Donna pairing makes me gag, so I am quite thankful to have stopped watching before it happened.  I think they're each too good for the other, there's the fact he's, you know, her boss, and I never saw one genuine moment of romantic chemistry between them, so when it started being written in it felt forced and wrong.

 

- Danny and C.J. were cute in the beginning, but that faded pretty quickly thanks to his pushiness.  And he should have stayed gone.  The vibe was all wrong when he came back, and their "happy ending" makes me angry.

 

- While seasons three and four are still terrific television, they pale in comparison to the first two in a way that is distracting on re-watch.

 

- The charm of Ainsley wears off quickly.

 

- Amy was problematic in the same ways any female character, never mind a feminist female character, conceived and written by Aaron Sorkin is, but I liked her. 

 

- I don't have words for how annoying I find the Simon Donovan storyline.

[Melancholy]

Aw, I know CJ/Simon is problematic, soapy trash, out of place in a prestige political drama- but I love it anyway. Some of it is that Mark Harmon and Allison Janney look very good together. But I also though they were amusing contrasts to each other in personality:

 

SIMON: I have spent my adult life protecting people. You're the first person who's got me seriously thinking about switching sides.

C.J.: I'm sorry you feel that way. I think I've been a treat.

 

And his death did emotionally whallop me the first two times, and I think that was a necessary contrast in the rah rah assassination of Shareef.

 

I love John Hoynes and I think in a bunch of ways that he's a more principled political leader than the main characters- refusing to take the ethanol pledge because it's not good policy even though Jed did for purely political reasons in Iowa, being willing to take his name off good legislation so it can pass to help the rural poor even if he won't get political credit, not giving a fuck about the jealous personal drama between him and the Bartlet White House when he had to assume the presidency after Rosslyn but instead, thoughtfully making the best choices he could, staying loyal to Jed even though Jed decided to humiliate him in front of the Cabinet for no good reason at all. 

[Guest]

Yeah, I really liked Hoynes until it seemed like the show wanted to bring him down. Not even the sex scandal but the stuff with CJ, etc.  

[Melancholy]

Yeah, I really liked Hoynes until it seemed like the show wanted to bring him down. Not even the sex scandal but the stuff with CJ, etc.  

 

I know, right? The first sex scandal still had some dignity to it. Hoynes did resign in disgrace but he still kind of impressively took the high road in his disgrace, resigning to not put his family as much through disgrace or make Bartlet's second term about a sex scandal. Or:

 

BARTLET: What about "It's none of your business?"

HOYNES: I leaked classified information. It is their business. It's also a felony.

 

However, yeah, Hoynes writing a tell-all to paint Jed/Leo as the dishonest assholes in that scene when they were actually being very good to him (in that instance) to mount a come-back was unforgivable. CJ credibly characterizing Hoynes as a serial smooth-talking perpetual bad boy adulterer, destroyed a perfectly legitimate impression from Life on Marks that Hoynes just made one mistake and was actually kind of a cutie-patootie-nerd about the affair, gossiping about water droplets on Mars and deals with the DOJ for computers in classrooms as his version of sexxay pillow-talk. It wasn't an unbelievably degredation- I think it was a consistent character-move for a desperate Hoynes who was out in the disgraced wilderness for awhile. However, it was still a choice to go with the baser interpretations of his character instead of the better one. 

[SingleMaltBlonde]

"The Jackal" and the reaction to it never made any sense to me....it was creepy.

 

I can't wrap my head around a Presidential election where I would like both candidates...where I would really have to think about who I would vote for...except then I would remember Evelyn Baker Lange and come to my senses.

[Guest]

"The Jackal" and the reaction to it never made any sense to me....it was creepy.

 

 

Creepy is a good description. Also, as the only female member of the senior staff, I felt CJ often was marginalized in early seasons. Having her put on a performance for her male co-workers just made it too creepy for me.  

[kassygreene]

Creepy is a good description. Also, as the only female member of the senior staff, I felt CJ often was marginalized in early seasons. Having her put on a performance for her male co-workers just made it too creepy for me.  

As I recall, The Jackal is a thing Allison Janney and Richard Schiff would do for the the cast late at night while waiting for a shot...  People get punchy after lots of hurry up and wait.  Anyway, apparently everyone loved it, and they "figured out" a way to include it in the show, although only with Allison, Richard's contribution being reduced to a couple of smoke rings.

 

I think this happened early in Season One, when they all probably believed that they would be lucky to get thirteen episodes before cancellation.

[SingleMaltBlonde]

As I recall, The Jackal is a thing Allison Janney and Richard Schiff would do for the the cast late at night while waiting for a shot...  People get punchy after lots of hurry up and wait.  Anyway, apparently everyone loved it, and they "figured out" a way to include it in the show, although only with Allison, Richard's contribution being reduced to a couple of smoke rings.

 

I think this happened early in Season One, when they all probably believed that they would be lucky to get thirteen episodes before cancellation.

 

There's an old story about The Police's first US show...there were like 20 people at the club and they know most of them...but it doesn't stop tons of people from claiming to have been there...had The Jackal been like that...something people talked about and only a few had seen it would have been ok...I have a colleague who trys to have work parties or even client events center around singing so people will tell her she's a great singer (she isn't) and it always ends up being awkward...I can't imagine staying after work so someone could perform a lip sync routine.  No, just no.

[BizBuzz]

Again ... I must not have a feminist meter at all ... the Jackal never has given me the creeps ... in fact, I think it's cool. 

 

Isn't it neat how different things affect different people?  And how even cooler it is that we can feel safe with our likes/dislikes.

 

I like to remember what Leo says to Tribbey:

 

Leo McGarry: She's not an idiot, Lionel. She clerked for Dreifort.
Lionel Tribbey: Well, Dreifort's an idiot.
Leo McGarry: Dreifort's a Supreme Court Justice, Lionel, so let's speak of him with respect and practice some tolerance for those who disagree with us.

 

I have used that more than once in my life.

[Kohola3]

I must not have a feminist meter at all ... the Jackal never has given me the creeps ... in fact, I think it's cool.

 

Me, too.  I had to go back and review it to see what would make it creepy and I just don't get it.  Potato/potahto I guess.

[Aethera]

I always really liked Hoynes, and felt him writing the tell all was out of character. I agree he is more principled in some ways than Bartlet. I thought he was miles better than Bingo Bob, the product of the mess in Season 5.

 

I agree that CJ's other singing is better than the Jackal, but I still enjoy the Jackal.  I have sung Cool to people and have definitely been quoting CJ when doing so.

 

I liked both Santos and Vinick, for different reasons. I think if that was a real life election, I would have voted for Vinick, though his VP pick would have given me pause. I love Alan Alda, and he was ideally cast there, I think. Him and Bartlet eating ice cream remains one of my favorite moments.

 

I think the Shareef storyline is not thrilling, and that includes Simon Donovan, though I think Mark Harmon and Alison Janney had really great chemistry. I don't know why she hasn't popped up on NCIS as a love interest this whole time - she'd look fine as a red head.

 

I think Donna was written poorly in the first couple of seasons, and then improved from there - she grows out of the "ask questions so that the audience can learn things" role over the course of the early seasons. I do think she didn't do quite ENOUGH growing before she left, making her transition kind of startling. I feel like Josh's Assistant Donna and Post-Assistant Donna are 2 entirely different people - and I liked Post-Assistant Donna much better. But it felt like she hadn't earned that confidence, somehow - she just found it in the back of a closet and went "ooh, here it is!" and was fine all of a sudden.

 

I hated Kate on initial watch. I wanted Nancy back, and she was just irritating, and the Will Bailey thing, bleh. But as I've rewatched over the years, and after having seen and loved In Plain Sight, I find that I liked her more and more.  That romance will Will Bailey is still lame though. "Here replacement characters, get it on, because if we hook you up with someone fans love, they'll be pissed!"

[Danny Franks]

I did not like Josh/Donna as anything more than a bit of humour and a chance for them to have Josh spell out something that Donna didn't understand, for the benefit of the audience. I don't think they worked at all as a potential romantic couple. But then, I didn't like Josh's stuff with Amy either, and not just because Amy was an ass. Josh was too, when it came to women.

 

I did not like the storyline with Toby suddenly becoming a father. It felt like an unnecessary and unwelcome detour into his private life, which I did not need. I liked seeing them at work, seeing Toby be the smartest guy in the room and the guy everyone was afraid of being shouted at by. The softening of him just felt wrong.

 

The turn towards international affairs and terrorism that the show took in season 3 (after 9/11) really ruined it a lot for me. It lost a lot of its charm, and just began to feel more like a Tom Clancy story than the witty, erudite look into the work of the White House staffers that it started as.

 

I don't think the show was ever the same after Rob Lowe left, and they should have pulled out all the stops to keep him around. He was a very important piece of the ensemble, and was never replaced. Again, the show was less charming as a result of that.

[Guest]

I thought when Sam revealed he was engaged in Season 7, it should have been surprise reveal to be Ainsley.

I hated every storyline with Toby and his ex.

[SingleMaltBlonde]

I hated every storyline with Toby and his ex.

 

I liked Andy and I thoguht they made great exes...but still don't understand how after having problems getting pregnant with help they get an oops pregnancy???

[Guest]

I liked Andy and I thoguht they made great exes...but still don't understand how after having problems getting pregnant with help they get an oops pregnancy???

And Twins. Because it is such a cliche'!

I didn't hate her as a character. I just didn't like the plots involving her. Mainly the twins.

[Bastet]

Was it an accidental pregnancy?  Did she do IVF?  Did they ever say?  (I quit watching some time in season six, but I don't remember it being explained during the time I did watch.) 

 

Add me to those thinking that was a stupid story line.

[rippleintime17]

I never quite understood it. My impression was that they had been trying for so long and Andie still wants babies, so they had continued the process even after they got divorced, since Toby had already done his part. It always seemed strange to me that Toby expected that Andie would want to remarry him, and it made me uncomfortable how he continued to pursue her even after she told him no many times (and never in a way where she appeared to be "cute" about it). But she clearly wanted him to be involved in the lives of the babies and I guess it was nice to see that they were willing to try and make it work despite no longer being together. Though I never bought that Toby spent all that much time with them once they were born.

[betsyboo]

I never quite understood it. My impression was that they had been trying for so long and Andie still wants babies, so they had continued the process even after they got divorced, since Toby had already done his part. It always seemed strange to me that Toby expected that Andie would want to remarry him, and it made me uncomfortable how he continued to pursue her even after she told him no many times (and never in a way where she appeared to be "cute" about it). But she clearly wanted him to be involved in the lives of the babies and I guess it was nice to see that they were willing to try and make it work despite no longer being together. Though I never bought that Toby spent all that much time with them once they were born.

oh I absolutely think it was IVF. She wanted his baby (ies) but didn't want to still be married.

[BW Manilowe]

I never quite understood it. My impression was that they had been trying for so long and Andie still wants babies, so they had continued the process even after they got divorced, since Toby had already done his part. It always seemed strange to me that Toby expected that Andie would want to remarry him, and it made me uncomfortable how he continued to pursue her even after she told him no many times (and never in a way where she appeared to be "cute" about it). But she clearly wanted him to be involved in the lives of the babies and I guess it was nice to see that they were willing to try and make it work despite no longer being together. Though I never bought that Toby spent all that much time with them once they were born.

Apparently, after some point, he didn't. I remember Andi saying to Toby at 1 point that he didn't need an engraved invitation to see the twins.

But I could also understand his unavailability when he was still employed at the White House; working there is really demanding. Considering Andi was a sitting Congressional Representative from Maryland at the same time--again, not necessarily 1 of the least demanding jobs in the world--I kind of felt Andi should've understood the demands Toby's job put on his life outside of work.

[Melancholy]

See, I thought Toby and Andi hooked up one time in a heated moment of passion (probably while working on the campaign) and he knocked her up. Based on her difficulties in the past and her advancing age, she decided to keep the babies. I just feel like an IVF story where Andi went back and grabbed Toby's frozen sperm is a storyline in and of itself, incredibly connected to the S4 baby storyline to the point that they'd need to say it. Meanwhile, a random hook-up really can be fairly glossed over because that's not the story that Sorkin wanted to tell. This wasn't a story about a hook-up; it was a story about how Toby deals with his ex-wife bearing his children. On that level, I respect that. I just think that it should have been made clearer that it was a hook-up, because that's the only way that the story has credibility in glossing over the conception. 

 

Sorkin HAS made me uncomfortable in his various Women: Pursued storylines (S4 Charlie/Zoey, Danny/CJ, then Danny/Jordan in Studio 60, and Danny/Rebecca in Sports Night). However, I think Toby/Andi (and for that matter, Mark Zuckerberg/Erica) avert the creepiness really well. For Toby/Andi, I think Andi DID send mixed messages. First, I think they had sex to conceive. Andi grabbing Toby to make out in front of all of her staffers at her victory party and the flirtatious MARYLAND. The flirtatious "Uh huh girls, I saw him first" at Toby's "how are you fitting into an Air Force One chair" insensitivity. The coupley handholding during the sonogram. 

 

Plus, I think Toby fundamentally didn't understand why they divorced. Based on how he appeared to flashback in Debate Camp and his "I'm eating salads, giving up my bachelor pad" checklist, I think Toby was under the impression that they mainly divorced because of a difference in how much they were willing to work to have children. Toby thought Andi desperately wanted them and he didn't so Andi left him to pursue a dream of being a mother. Toby could tell that there was something increasingly rotten in his marriage, but he didn't know enough to label it. He even said so- Andi and Toby just wouldn't talk about why they couldn't live with each other. 

 

Meanwhile, I think Andi never sat him down and explained why she found him intolerable to live with. And why the baby-issue actually DIDN'T kill their marriage, but instead, IMO Andi was partly trying to save their marriage with a baby and when they couldn't even do that, Andi decided to call it quits because she was finding it depressing to live with just him. I think Andi's attitude is that she felt guilty about being unfair to Toby because anyone could tell that he's an unhappy person after spending ten minutes with him, but she thought that she was the exception and could change all of that and when she couldn't, she felt bad hitting him over the head with that because it's kind of a difficult thing for him to change about himself and he has hard-core childhood trauma and steady string of career disappointments that he was grappling with. So, I think Toby really didn't have a good idea on why Andi divorced him and viewed her as the one who got away over the baby issue. 

 

IMO, I think Aaron Sorkin was gearing up to write a serious arc about Toby as a father. The conceiving part was sketchy, but there was a lot of heart and personal feeling from Sorkin in his writing for Toby in S4. I think it was something that Sorkin really wanted to explore, actually with a lot more immediacy and feeling than a lot of the personal, non-political stories on TWW. I agree that Toby looked like an unengaged father in S5-7, which was arguably a bigger Toby-characterization disappointment than the leak. In a lot of ways, Toby Ziegler was very much an Aaron Sorkin character and didn't have The Zippy Cool to be easily taken over by the later seasons writer ala CJ and Josh or the unformedness to be remade as a better character ala Donna. 

[AriAu]

See, I thought Toby and Andi hooked up one time in a heated moment of passion (probably while working on the campaign) and he knocked her up. Based on her difficulties in the past and her advancing age, she decided to keep the babies.

 

I figured that they had maintained some type of "friends with benefits" relationship and that the pregnancy was a happy add on. we know that they had been trying and I don't recall that there was enough back story that their inability to conceive lead to the divorce. Instead it seemed like Andi felt like she could not live with his basic unhappiness, but it did not mean that she did not care for him and I have heard of many divorced couples that maintained some type of physical relationship.

I think it was a "surprise" based on the fact that they had not discussed how to deal with the situation.

YMMV

[betsyboo]

oh I absolutely think it was IVF. She wanted his baby (ies) but didn't want to still be married.

(is it bad form to quote yourself????)

 

I am struggling here, for reals. You guys are making me doubt something that I thought was canon! (IN MY HEAD!) clearly I made the IVF assumption and never questioned it. And now I am! I don't even know why I did, for sure, but I have always thought that's what it was! (I guess I made the assumption that if they were having trouble conceiving years before, that it would be unlikely a random encounter would result in pg, esp since she was older. AND -- twins, which to me screamed IVF.) That you were even discussing it was startling enough, and now to learn I am in the minority...?!?!? Black is white! Up is down! Will you still let me come to the party?????????

[Bastet]

(I guess I made the assumption that if they were having trouble conceiving years before, that it would be unlikely a random encounter would result in pg, esp since she was older. AND -- twins, which to me screamed IVF.)

 

That's what I assumed, too, and exactly why I assumed it.  And still do.

[Melancholy]

I figured that they had maintained some type of "friends with benefits" relationship and that the pregnancy was a happy add on. we know that they had been trying and I don't recall that there was enough back story that their inability to conceive lead to the divorce. Instead it seemed like Andi felt like she could not live with his basic unhappiness, but it did not mean that she did not care for him and I have heard of many divorced couples that maintained some type of physical relationship.

I think it was a "surprise" based on the fact that they had not discussed how to deal with the situation.

YMMV

 

See, I never got the vibe that Toby and Andi were were "friends with benefits." I got the vibe that it was notable for Toby to interact with Andi in the earlier seasons and usually in a political circumstance because they needed her for a specific thing- for her approval of threatening members of Congress on their hypocrisy re: the mandatory minimums, to help them out with the Blue Ribbon Commission, because she sought them out to complain about Jed's proposed UN speech attacking the Arab world. 

 

In my head, Toby and Andi were unusually On The Same Team when she was part of the congressional delegation assisting the Committee to Re-elect the President. And that's what we saw in early S4- a lot more of Andi because she was actively involved in Jed's re-election. Toby and Andi were working a lot more together and they were giving off enough vibes for like, Josh to start in the tasteless "Why don't you just do your job as a man and get that nice girl pregnant?" So, I think they just had one or a few sexual interactions in early S4 or maybe pre-20 Hours in America as they worked more closely with each other. 

 

I agree that their difficulty conceiving wasn't why they divorced. It was because Andi couldn't live with his doom and gloom anymore. However, I don't think Toby really understood that until her speech in Commencement. IMO, she didn't want to deliver such a harsh truth. And IMO, he still carried a torch for her and was inclined to think of their separation as the result of events (difficulty conceiving) or trivia (salads, his apartment) so he didn't have to deal with deeper issues leading up to the separation other than to just be mystified on WHY they wouldn't talk about why their marriage was failing (The Leadership Breakfast). Maybe its the mis en scene but I always get the vibe that we start the flashbacks in Debate Camp through Toby's POV, "OF COURSE I remember the start of the failed Roker nomination because it was also the start of my marriage failing"

[Moose135]

From Debate Camp:

 

JOSH: Why don't you just do your job as a man and get that nice girl pregnant.

TOBY: I did.

 

And I've always loved this part of the conversation:

 

JOSH: Toby, Andy's pregnant?

TOBY: With twins.

JOSH: And they're yours?

TOBY: Yeah.

JOSH: Both of them?

[Guest]

Team BetsyBoo. I could argue either way, but I think fraternal twins especially point to IVF or at the very least an IUI that Toby agreed to.

 

Of course, I've only seen that part of the show once, so perhaps I shouldn't be so opinionated. 

[AriAu]

Team BetsyBoo. I could argue either way, but I think fraternal twins especially point to IVF or at the very least an IUI that Toby agreed to.

 

AS did not leave us a lot to work with on this, but I vote against IVF for several reasons:

1. I think they would have given us some hints that they went that route. Andy would have had to ask for Toby's help and he would have had to agree to it and that would have come up some where, some how.

2. There is no way she used frozen sperm from years before since again, I have to believe it would have come up, likely from Toby being pissed that she did it without talking to him and he clearly was "involved" at the present time.

3 They clearly had not discussed all the implications of Andy getting pregnant, including where it would put them as a couple or even as co-parents etc..... Toby seems like the type to want to have some understanding on EVERYTHING before agreeing to IVF given their past history as a couple and with IVF.

4. I have a dirty mind and I like the idea of them being "friends with benefits'!

[BizBuzz]

Count me in for Team betsyboo too ... I never for once thought they were friends with benefits ... I thought the whole IVF story line was foreshadowing her pregnancy.  

 

And to tell you the truth, even with all the supporting arguments ... that is what happened ... I simply cannot imagine Toby and her together.  I didn't always like her anyway.  ::giggle::

[Guest]

1. I think they would have given us some hints that they went that route. Andy would have had to ask for Toby's help and he would have had to agree to it and that would have come up some where, some how.

 

I thought maybe they didn't show that because Toby was so private with his life.  Even to us, the viewers.  

[PeterPirate]

Personally, I think Huck and Molly were conceived via intimate relations between Toby and Andy.  Toby asked her to get married again. I doubt he would have done that unless he had some expectation that she would say yes.  And I doubt he would have had that expectation if she had asked him to be a sperm donor using a plastic cup.  

 

 

There's also this repartee from Election Night:  

TOBY - These bodies of yours, I don't know how you live with them.

ANDY- You don't seem to mind.

TOBY - I like the outsides.

 

 

 

 

[AriAu]

There's also this repartee from Election Night: 

TOBY - These bodies of yours, I don't know how you live with them.

ANDY- You don't seem to mind.

TOBY - I like the outsides.

 

oooh, forgot all about that conversation! Helps Team AriAu's position!!.

 

simply cannot imagine Toby and her together.  I didn't always like her anyway.  ::giggle::

 

Agreed on the "can't imagine" part, but I do kinda like her, especially since she won't put up with his BS or inherent Toby-ness. I love the character ( and he is wonderfully written), but there is an awful lot of baggage that goes with it. Of course, Mrs Au would say the same thing! MARYLAND!!

Edited February 2, 2016 by AriAu

[SingleMaltBlonde]

I thought he didn't make his deposit....but she was chasing him down to get the job done.

 

I wouldn't go as far as friends with benefits but I keep thinking of the whole thing with Annabeth and how Toby gets women ("smart and funny") and I get it...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1W0qVItUL4

Edited February 2, 2016 by SingleMaltBlonde

[BizBuzz]

Maryland!

[Aethera]

I hated that leak storyline, as did Richard Schiff I seem to recall. It was one of my least favorites. Just didn't do justice to Toby at all, since he got shoved off to the side.

 

I think Toby and Andi's pregnancy was accidental, based on how unprepared they were and how they'd hadn't discussed things like marriage. People often get pregnant naturally after struggling to conceive for a long time, once they stop actively trying - I know 4 couples who have had that happen within the last few years. I really liked their chemistry and was a bit sad they didn't get together, though they still wouldn't have shown her much I'm sure.

[galaxygirl76]

I have no idea if it's unpopular but my husband's most hated thing the show did was making CJ the Chief of Staff. He believes she was not qualified to do that job. I don't really care much for Josh and Donna but can deal with it because it doesn't actually happen until the end. I also didn't really care much for Santos but that could be clouded by my love for Alan Alda and Arnold Vinick.

Edited March 1, 2016 by galaxygirl76

[Guest]

I think this is unpopular. Season 3 is probably the worst Season other than 7. I'm stalling on my rewatch because I just don't feel like watching Season 3. It has some good episodes here and there, but overall, I don't like the season much. Knowing what is about to come with CJs plot makes it that much worse.

Season 5 is much better than Season 3.

[PeterPirate]

Season 3 has Bartlet For America, which I consider to be the best episode of the entire run.  But overall I agree that season 5 is better, in that it has more episodes that I find engaging and/or enjoyable to watch.  

Edited March 1, 2016 by PeterPirate

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

I think this is unpopular. Season 3 is probably the worst Season other than 7. I'm stalling on my rewatch because I just don't feel like watching Season 3. It has some good episodes here and there, but overall, I don't like the season much. Knowing what is about to come with CJs plot makes it that much worse.

Season 5 is much better than Season 3.

 

My unpopular opinion is that S5 and & were better than S3.

 

It seemed to me the criticism of the later seasons, especially S5 was in reaction to Sorkin's exit.  As a latecomer , I didn't have that attachment to Sorkin.

[Guest]

I think Season 5 struggled from the lack of Rob Lowe, and Seasons 6 and 7 focused too much outside the White House. I think Season 7 also had to play the cards they were dealt with John Spencer's death. I think it would have been a stronger season if not for that.  (I'm not sure if that's popular or unpopular. Sorry!)

[peggy06]

I have no idea if it's unpopular but my husband's most hated thing the show did was making CJ the Chief of Staff. He believes she was not qualified to do that job. I don't really care much for Josh and Donna but can deal with it because it doesn't actually happen until the end. I also didn't really care much for Santos but that could be clouded by my love for Alan Alda and Arnold Vinick.

When this happened, I was of course surprised. Being a CJ fan, I was happy that the character was being given this recognition by Leo. However, it now seems clear that this was done to set up Josh leaving to run a campaign. If Josh was made CoS, no way would he have done that. 

[PeterPirate]

I really don't like the "cliffhanger" ending to season 2.  

 

I realize that there is some debate as to whether the whole "hands in pockets" thing was a tell that made the ending not a cliffhanger. But to me it was a cliffhanger and I don't like it.

 

(This post inspired by all of the pre-airing speculation about a cliffhanger ending for the season 6 finale of The Walking Dead.) 

[FozzyBear]

I really dislike Will Bailey. Like REALLY DISLIKE HIM! I think he came across as a smug, spoiled, privileged asshole who always expected to have everything handed to him just because he was the great Will Baily. The amount of man-splaining that character engages in drives me up the wall. I always felt like he was written as some extreme version of Josh with only bad qualities.

[Aethera]

I liked original Will Bailey, but hated the plot line where Will goes to work for the VP. Not sure what the relative popularity is of that opinion.

 

I'm also not sure if liking CJ as COS is a popular opinion or an unpopular one. I did like it - they did set her up for it by having her be the one figuring stuff out when Josh & Toby were freaking out in the absence of Leo, but I think overall she was always undervalued, and it allowed her to grow a bit. I do think no way would Sorkin have gone that direction.

 

I also hated when they had Charlie 'graduate' from being Bartlet's bodyman. I know it was meant to make him grow, but instead, it just sidelined him a lot of the time. I wish they'd handled it better.

[BW Manilowe]

I liked original Will Bailey, but hated the plot line where Will goes to work for the VP. Not sure what the relative popularity is of that opinion.

I'm also not sure if liking CJ as COS is a popular opinion or an unpopular one. I did like it - they did set her up for it by having her be the one figuring stuff out when Josh & Toby were freaking out in the absence of Leo, but I think overall she was always undervalued, and it allowed her to grow a bit. I do think no way would Sorkin have gone that direction.

I also hated when they had Charlie 'graduate' from being Bartlet's bodyman. I know it was meant to make him grow, but instead, it just sidelined him a lot of the time. I wish they'd handled it better.

I'm not sure they could've handled Charlie's transition any better. By that point, Dulé Hill may have begun filming on Psych, his post-TWW series on USA Network.

[PeterPirate]

I really don't like the "cliffhanger" ending to season 2.  

 

I realize that there is some debate as to whether the whole "hands in pockets" thing was a tell that made the ending not a cliffhanger. But to me it was a cliffhanger and I don't like it.

 

(This post inspired by all of the pre-airing speculation about a cliffhanger ending for the season 6 finale of The Walking Dead.) 

 

So, yeah, the Walking Dead season finale ended on a cliffhanger. And that ending has been met with near-universal scorn.  

 

I really like Two Cathedrals. I like the flashbacks to Bartlet's formative years.  I love the scene in the National Cathedral when Bartlet curses in Latin.  I love the discussion with Ghost!MrsLandingham. I love the Dire Straits song as Bartlet walks in the rain.  I just hate the hands-in-pockets thing.  

 

And it's worth noting that Two Cathedrals is the culmination of a 5-episode arc, starting with 17 People, that most commenters agree is the best of the entire series.  Just like a lot of people liked the second half of the season of Walking Dead, right up to the cliffhanger.  

 

 

Eas in crucem, hands-in-pockets thing. Eas in crucem.  

Edited April 18, 2016 by PeterPirate

[Bastet]

I've never heard that described as a cliffhanger before (but I wasn't terribly involved with any online commentary regarding WW at the time it aired; just obsessively discussing it among my friends and co-workers who also watched).  I think it's a nice way of showing the audience he's decided to run again; I still remember getting a nice little shiver when Leo said, "Watch this," and then Bartlet put his hands in his pockets.