Television Vs. Book: Why'd They Make [Spoiler] Such A [Spoiler]?

[Oscirus]

they wanted to present her as a sexy, mature woman so Baelish could ogle her at the end of last season, yet she's still a manipulated or quiet child when the script needs her to be such.

 

  I've never really seen her as a sexy mature woman. Her way of seducing Littlefinger has been dying her hair black, dressing a little sexier and letting him kiss on her without really kissing him back. Which is pretty much the way a naive child would try to seduce somebody.

 

The part of the story that bothers me is Littlefinger. He spent so much time carefully planning everything out just to all of a sudden give up a pretty important game piece to an unknown factor?  I thought he was stashing her to hide from Cersei but since that's obviously not the case, it doesn't add up.

 

[Avaleigh]

I don't see Sansa as a sexy mature woman either. I agree too that there is something still childlike about the way that she interacts with Littlefinger and to me that's understandable. I guess I continue to think that too much was made of Sansa's mockingbird moment and suddenly people were expecting her to be this manipulative genius because she chose to tell the truth about her identity to the Lords Declarant in addition to giving LF a few knowing looks.

As far as the Vale stuff being cut, I get it. It wasn't that I didn't enjoy reading it (although I was a little annoyed that this was supposedly the "controversial" Sansa chapter) but more how that chapter came across as a little CWish. Sansa is basically eating lemon cakes, flirting with boys, babysitting Sweetrobin, and running around giggling with Myranda. I can see how it would seem pretty frothy alongside what the other characters on the show are dealing with. Is anyone seriously in suspense as to whether or not Sansa is going to marry Harry the Heir?

ETA: Ugh, I fail at posting when I'm at work. Anyway, I can totally see why D&D cut the Vale based on what I've read so far.

Edited June 12, 2015 by Mya Stone

[loki567]

I bristle at dismissing the chapter as "CW-like," (not to mention The 100? probably the most Game of Thrones-like show on network television right now). You can say the scene is lighter than most of the books, I think that's exactly the point. GRRM has stuck Sansa in a setting that's the closest thing left to a pre-war Westeros court. It's politics on a smaller stage to get Sansa ready for a big one. It's her getting a read on the various Vale lords and their retinues, forming relationships with potential allies like Myranda Royce, and her learning how to seduce for political gain. It's character development. 

[Advance35]

I actually really liked the Sample Alayne Chapter released.  

I thought it was definitely a precursor to a lot of dark and sinister activity.  And I think a lot of the dark goings on will be performed by she and Petyr.   It felt like Sansa was much more proactive.   SHE considers herself and LF a team (for now) and she's working towards that end.   Her observation of political currents and socials manuevers has improved (more than the rest of the Starks that's for sure), and I really like that she has struck up a genuine rapport with Luthor Brune.   Seeing the Mad Mouse that just happened to bump into her was unsettling as was her observation of Lyn Cobray.

 

I felt Myranda Royce was going to become a dangerous enemy (I don't buy that she's remotely ok that Harry and Sansa are being steered towards each other) and I think while not Ramsay Bolton levels of bad, Harry is going to show some not nice colors in the future (more than displayed already).

 

 

But to adapt all of this for the screen?  Yikes, the extra's, the sets.  It was never going to happen.

Edited June 12, 2015 by Mya Stone

[Winnief]

I actually really liked the Sample Alayne Chapter released.  

I thought it was definitely a precursor to a lot of dark and sinister activity.   I felt Myranda Royce was going to become a dangerous enemy (I don't buy that she's remotely ok that Harry and Sansa are being steered towards each other) and I think while not Ramsay Bolton levels of bad, Harry is going to show some not nice colors in the future (more than displayed already).

 

But to adapt all of this for the screen?  Yikes, the extra's, the sets.  It was never going to happen.

 

Agreed. 

It's also worth noting that "Alayne" was showing some real shrewdness with her idea of a tourney to choose SR 'winged knights.'  It was good character building

, but they weren't going to do a Vale detour, (though why Dorne was more worthy than the Vale is beyond me.)  More importantly, they wanted to get Sansa Up North.

[Mya Stone]

Agreed.

It's also worth noting that "Alayne" was showing some real shrewdness with her idea of a tourney to choose SR 'winged knights.' It was good character building,

but they weren't going to do a Vale detour, (though why Dorne was more worthy than the Vale is beyond me.) More importantly, they wanted to get Sansa Up North.

I can only assume that the Dorne characters have more to do with advancing the story as a whole, while the Vale serves only to advance Sansa. (At least I hope.)

[SeanC]

He manipulated her into saying yes. If she'd been able to resist his manipulations, there wasn't a lot he could have done. but she isn't on that level yet.

That's the thing, the people associated with the show say he wasn't manipulating her.

 

I'm hoping that Sansa can pull through.  And she's not even one of my favorite characters.  To be honest I always thought book Sansa was an idiot with her naive fantasies about knights and princes and, for me, she didn't learn fast enough in the books.  I remember always thinking "when are you going to open your eyes, you idiot?" a lot while reading her chapters.  I think TV Sansa has fared better with me.

Book Sansa has learned much faster than the show version, at this point (particularly in King's Landing, where the show excised most of her character development and she just sat around doing nothing).

[WearyTraveler]

Book Sansa has learned much faster than the show version, at this point (particularly in King's Landing, where the show excised most of her character development and she just sat around doing nothing).

 

True, but it's the stuff they didn't show that made me like her on the show more.  For example, on the show, she doesn't rat out her own father to Cersei.  Reading her thoughts on that chapter elicited a lot of "OMG! How much more stupid can you be?!"

[Hecate7]

That's the thing, the people associated with the show say he wasn't manipulating her.

 

Then they should have edited out that huge smile behind her back after he manages to persuade her to marry Ramsey.

[jjjmoss]

I mean, she's a preteen in the first book. I don't expect them to be very smart.

 

Certainly adults in the series have made idiotic, often deadly decisions.

[The Mormegil]

Which would make him more like Robert than he ever thought, given that Robert permitted Raegar's children to be brutally killed for his own purposes.

 

But Robert never did that.

 

Would he have had the children killed if they were still alive when he got to Kings Landing, maybe (though only if Ned wasn't there).

 

 

As it played out though he had nothing to do with it. Robert is lying injured at the Trident when Tywin decides to finally join the rebellion and it's Tywin who orders the children killed to prove his loyalty to Robert.

[Avaleigh]

But Robert never did that.

 

Would he have had the children killed if they were still alive when he got to Kings Landing, maybe (though only if Ned wasn't there).

 

 

As it played out though he had nothing to do with it. Robert is lying injured at the Trident when Tywin decides to finally join the rebellion and it's Tywin who orders the children killed to prove his loyalty to Robert.

Robert was definitely pleased with the act though. It didn't seem to chill him. I never got that impression. Robert was just happy that he wasn't the one who had to do it or give the order to do it. He wanted it to happen because he hated Rhaegar so much.

 

Then of course when all is said and done and years pass, we see that Robert has it in him to give the order on Viserys, thirteen year old Dany and any kid she might have. 

[Avaleigh]

I bristle at dismissing the chapter as "CW-like," (not to mention The 100? probably the most Game of Thrones-like show on network television right now). You can say the scene is lighter than most of the books, I think that's exactly the point. GRRM has stuck Sansa in a setting that's the closest thing left to a pre-war Westeros court. It's politics on a smaller stage to get Sansa ready for a big one. It's her getting a read on the various Vale lords and their retinues, forming relationships with potential allies like Myranda Royce, and her learning how to seduce for political gain. It's character development.

To each their own when it comes to the CW, I guess. I somehow managed to make it through two episodes of Reign and can easily say that it is one of the worst shows I've ever seen. I remember commenting about how superficial and craptastic it was over at TWoP and the average response was something along the lines of 'What were you expecting from the freaking CW?' Add in the times when my younger sister had me watch episodes of The Vampire Diaries and The Secret Circle, well, I guess it's just not the network for me. I will say that The 100 sounds like it has an interesting premise.

As far as my comments,

it's not like I was saying that the chapter sucked just that I can see why D&D chose not to waste time with Sansa there. Fair enough though that we have no way of knowing if things turn up in the Vale and that there very well could be more to it than the lighthearted fare we've so far seen.

I agree that her character is being developed but I can still see how it would seem somewhat frivolous and maybe even a little boring when I compare Sansa in the Vale to what other show characters are going through.

Littlefinger also doesn't seem as interesting in such a light hearted environment IMO. As far as learning to seduce for political gain, I can't say that it seems like it's going to be much of a challenge for Sansa as far as Harry is concerned. The character of Harry doesn't come across as terribly memorable or interesting and I get the feeling that he's unlikely to appear on the show. The friendship with Myranda also seems expendable from what I've read of her so far and the character doesn't seem like she's going to bring that much to the table.

At the moment the main thing that interests me about the Vale is what is going to be done with their soldiers and food. Who are they going to aid? I can't really say that I feel much suspense as far as Sansa interacting with the characters of the Vale so

even though I despise the character of Ramsay I'd be lying if I didn't admit to being tense and engaged during the scenes he and Sansa share together on the show.

The dinner that Sansa had at Winterfell was definitely one of my favorite scenes of this season.

Edited June 12, 2015 by Avaleigh

[Advance35]

I agree that her character is being developed but I can still see how it would seem somewhat frivolous and maybe even a little boring when I compare Sansa in the Vale to what other show characters are going through.

Littlefinger also doesn't seem as interesting in such a light hearted environment IMO. As far as learning to seduce for political gain, I can't say that it seems like it's going to be much of a challenge for Sansa as far as Harry is concerned. The character of Harry doesn't come across as terribly memorable or interesting and I get the feeling that he's unlikely to appear on the show. The friendship with Myranda also seems expendable from what I've read of her so far and the character doesn't seem like she's going to bring that much to the table.

 

I get what you mean,

I guess what I liked about the chapter, is that it came off like a pre-Storm of Swords Highgarden.  Nobody had made their play yet but just about every character we meet has a tangible agenda or is rallying for their own grasp of power and the one's that don't have an agenda I can recognize as a reader, come across as being more oblique with their agenda than being innocent of having one.   Harry want's the Vale IMO, Lady Waynwood want's Harry to rise high, The Waynwood Heirs want to continue to cultivate the brotherly relationship they have with the man (Harry) everyone expects to become heir, Robin just wants to survive and instinctively seems to know the vultures are circling, Myranda is cultivating a friendship with "Alayne" the Lord Protectors illegitimate daughter but still seems chafed that she'll ultimately be denied status as "Lady of the Vale", The Mad Mouse seems to be in LF service OR is he in Varys or Cersei's (he seems to be turning up wherever Alayne is quite frequently).   And than we have Petyr and Alayne (still secretly Sansa), plotting to ensnare the future Lord of the Vale, keeping close and keeping the appearance of doting on the current heir and Petyr is hoarding food and sowing up support against forces outside the Vale and Bronz Yohn Royce.   While Sansa makes friends with her guard Luthor Brune and Baratheon Bastard Mya Stone.   Add in Lyn Cobray's lethal allegiance potentially being up for grabs, a feast ball (in which Harry and Sansa continue to literally dance around each other) and an impending Tourney.   I found it all deliciously juicy.

 

But Sansa would need 30 min of screentime per episode MINIMUM to make all of it work on screen.   So I'm with you in that I get why the show chose not to go there.  It just wasn't realistic or feasible for them to do so (though it would have been great if they had).  But I'm like you in that I'm always at attention whenever Ramsay and Sansa are on screen together.    I've enjoyed the Winterfell storyline this year, it's given the character a chance to interact with different characters entirely in an environment that's just as deadly as Kings Landing but where the civilized veneer is more removed.   I feel like Sansa really is different in these circumstances, she doesn't go for niceties and she takes swipes where she can.   I think she manuevered the way she did in the Vale because she was reasonably confident it would work and seemed to have a grasp on what the people were like, by reputation if nothing else.   In Winterfell, she thought the worst thing about the Bolton's was that they were turncloaks and she's finding out that it is the least dangerous thing about them.

 

I thought the Wedding was Beautifully filmed and the acting from all was spot on.   Outwardly beautiful but so macbre on a substantive level.   I love Sansa and root for her but I am sort of sorry we haven't had more scenes of Ramsay and Sansa because IR and ST have been absolutely wonderful together.   AA has also been great, as expected.   I feel like they have given more dimension to Ramsay this year.   Sometimes when you peel an onion or an apple, you don't get to anything remotely fresh, sometimes it's rotten all the way through and that's what I think is displayed about the Boltons.   The only relatable thing about them is their hunger for power.   Ramsay hungers for his fathers approval, a human desire in a character that is so repellantly inhuman.

 

I too loved the dinner scene with Roose/Walda/Ramsay/Sansa/Theon.  Walda had the "How did I get here vibe", Roose had the "What am I going to do next with everyone in this room individually and as a collective",  Sansa brought the chilly haughty she hasn't been able to use much since Season 1, and Ramsay "I pick the wings off butterflies and crack up whenever anyone looks at me strange vibe".

 

I like both versions of Sansa's story.

[Mya Stone]

Any preview chapter George has released for TWOW should be behind spoiler tags. Some people choose to not read them. 

[nksarmi]

I admire you people for reading his release chapters - I just find myself not caring.  I will probably get sucked into the next book because I'm curious about GRRM's version of Jamie's story and maybe a couple of other things, but I just know I'm going to end up skimming some chapters.  And I'm waiting until I can get it at the library for sure.

[Avaleigh]

I admire you people for reading his release chapters - I just find myself not caring.  I will probably get sucked into the next book because I'm curious about GRRM's version of Jamie's story and maybe a couple of other things, but I just know I'm going to end up skimming some chapters.  And I'm waiting until I can get it at the library for sure.

I admire you for having the discipline to wait. I'm so going to read whenever it's released. No way though do I plan on reading it cover to cover though. I had to skip around for the last two books. I think with ADWD I jumped straight to either Melisandre or Jaime's chapter and kind of went from there. Once I got through the stuff I was most interested in I went back to the beginning. I was already to start skimming Bran and ended up being surprised that I was so engaged.

I still haven't finished the Mercy chapter yet. Given the fan reaction I was expecting to really enjoy it but I guess it says a lot that I'm not interested enough to give it another try. The main thing that was interesting to me was the info that maybe Cersei won her trial. (I mainly recall reading this on the boards though and don't specifically recall what was said in the text)

[Hecate7]

I admire you for having the discipline to wait. I'm so going to read whenever it's released. No way though do I plan on reading it cover to cover though. I had to skip around for the last two books. I think with ADWD I jumped straight to either Melisandre or Jaime's chapter and kind of went from there. Once I got through the stuff I was most interested in I went back to the beginning. I was already to start skimming Bran and ended up being surprised that I was so engaged.

I still haven't finished the Mercy chapter yet. Given the fan reaction I was expecting to really enjoy it but I guess it says a lot that I'm not interested enough to give it another try. The main thing that was interesting to me was the info that maybe Cersei won her trial. (I mainly recall reading this on the boards though and don't specifically recall what was said in the text)

 

I'd post this on another thread, since it's spoilers, but isn't this the spoiler thread? So, the reason you think spoiler might have spoilered, is that

there are references to "the Golden Queen" in Westeros. The Golden Queen might be Cersei--Lannister Gold and her golden hair. Or Margaery, with her Tyrell gold roses and golden nature, or it could be the golden-haired Myrcella on the throne, with her Baratheon gold and the Martell gold in her heraldry. Whoever it is, the gold may refer more to her heraldry than her actual coloring, but it's tempting to think that the hair is a clue.

[MrWhyt]

I'd post this on another thread, since it's spoilers, but isn't this the spoiler thread?

< not a mod > Book talk is obviously allowed in here as it'd be hard to do a compare and contrast with the show without it, but the various pre-release chapters from the next book are considered spoiler material. < / not a mod >

[Mya Stone]

I'd post this on another thread, since it's spoilers, but isn't this the spoiler thread? So, the reason you think spoiler might have spoilered, is that

there are references to "the Golden Queen" in Westeros. The Golden Queen might be Cersei--Lannister Gold and her golden hair. Or Margaery, with her Tyrell gold roses and golden nature, or it could be the golden-haired Myrcella on the throne, with her Baratheon gold and the Martell gold in her heraldry. Whoever it is, the gold may refer more to her heraldry than her actual coloring, but it's tempting to think that the hair is a clue.

We are totally okay with y'all discussing the books, as it pertains to the show. We only ask that you spoiler tag material from TWOW, as it hasn't been released yet.

[Amtosbm]

 

I've enjoyed the Winterfell storyline this year, it's given the character a chance to interact with different characters entirely in an environment that's just as deadly as Kings Landing but where the civilized veneer is more removed.   I feel like Sansa really is different in these circumstances, she doesn't go for niceties and she takes swipes where she can.   I think she manuevered the way she did in the Vale because she was reasonably confident it would work and seemed to have a grasp on what the people were like, by reputation if nothing else.

Your post summed up better than I could why I enjoyed the Winterfell plot this year and don't miss Sansa in the Vale. I also think the actors work well together and feel it has especially given Theon's story new energy, the way introducing Tyrion has given Danys.  I don't enjoy seeing Sansa or any woman being abused, but stories don't have to always be about what I want. Life certainly isn't.

 

I love historical fiction and Sansa really is the character I feel fits in the most in that type of setting or genre. Sadly that means often a lack of real of power except behind the scenes. I really hope next season we see more of that type of storyline for her.  I never really considered it before but with Stannis burning his only heir I am wonder if he will be looking for a younger more fertile wife?  Maybe its tinfoily but I think there has to be a reason Sansa is in the north.  And Stannis has been mentioned as possibly being the one to  save her.  After episode ten I think we will have more of an idea.

 

I really think the one D and D has dropped the ball on the most is Jamie. I came to like him so much in the books, but the show version while physically gorgeous, has not quite brought out the same feelings. I liked his talk in the bath with Brienne but since then, and especially after murdering his kinfolk, I just have not felt a change in Jamie for the better like I did in the book. I was hoping the Dorne plot would do this but honestly I am just not seeing the point so far.  And the slapping game was one of the moments that made my blood boil because it could have been time spent instead on something far more relevant to the plot. With only ten episodes each second is literally precious and often I feel D and D waste more seconds than I think they need to.

 

 

[Umbelina]

I admire you for having the discipline to wait. I'm so going to read whenever it's released. No way though do I plan on reading it cover to cover though. I had to skip around for the last two books. I think with ADWD I jumped straight to either Melisandre or Jaime's chapter and kind of went from there. Once I got through the stuff I was most interested in I went back to the beginning. I was already to start skimming Bran and ended up being surprised that I was so engaged.

I still haven't finished the Mercy chapter yet. Given the fan reaction I was expecting to really enjoy it but I guess it says a lot that I'm not interested enough to give it another try. The main thing that was interesting to me was the info that maybe Cersei won her trial. (I mainly recall reading this on the boards though and don't specifically recall what was said in the text)

After the first few books I just read them all "my way" since I detest the way he breaks up narrative.  It's a pain in the butt, but I read the POV chapters IN A ROW, and then rinse/repeat.  If something that was happening in (for example) Arya's story that actually had one single thing to do with something happening with Bababa's or CaCaCa's or DaDaDa's I wouldn't, but they really didn't relate to each other at all, or not much, usually not even in timelines.  (I could be wrong about some.)  I enjoy the books much more that way, and don't have to keep going back to remember where I left off hundreds of pages ago with someone's tale.

 

I probably won't wait, but I may, since so many websites are so very very good at furthering various character's arcs.  (Westeros, etc.)

 

Your post summed up better than I could why I enjoyed the Winterfell plot this year and don't miss Sansa in the Vale. I also think the actors work well together and feel it has especially given Theon's story new energy, the way introducing Tyrion has given Danys.  I don't enjoy seeing Sansa or any woman being abused, but stories don't have to always be about what I want. Life certainly isn't.

 

I love historical fiction and Sansa really is the character I feel fits in the most in that type of setting or genre. Sadly that means often a lack of real of power except behind the scenes. I really hope next season we see more of that type of storyline for her.  I never really considered it before but with Stannis burning his only heir I am wonder if he will be looking for a younger more fertile wife?  Maybe its tinfoily but I think there has to be a reason Sansa is in the north.  And Stannis has been mentioned as possibly being the one to  save her.  After episode ten I think we will have more of an idea.

 

I really think the one D and D has dropped the ball on the most is Jamie. I came to like him so much in the books, but the show version while physically gorgeous, has not quite brought out the same feelings. I liked his talk in the bath with Brienne but since then, and especially after murdering his kinfolk, I just have not felt a change in Jamie for the better like I did in the book. I was hoping the Dorne plot would do this but honestly I am just not seeing the point so far.  And the slapping game was one of the moments that made my blood boil because it could have been time spent instead on something far more relevant to the plot. With only ten episodes each second is literally precious and often I feel D and D waste more seconds than I think they need to.

Yikes!  I never considered Stannis and Sansa, and I hope that doesn't come to pass.  Interesting idea though!

 

Yes, I so agree.  I adore book Jamie and feel he is so well written and complex, but the TV show has absolutely wrecked all of the complicated poetry of his character.  It was bad enough, but then they pulled that Cersei rape and there just isn't any coming back from that.  The scene as written in the book was powerful and enlightening and extremely well set up.  On the show?  Total and complete bullshit, and as "not Jamie!" as it was possible to be.

[Avaleigh]

After the first few books I just read them all "my way" since I detest the way he breaks up narrative.  It's a pain in the butt, but I read the POV chapters IN A ROW, and then rinse/repeat.  If something that was happening in (for example) Arya's story that actually had one single thing to do with something happening with Bababa's or CaCaCa's or DaDaDa's I wouldn't, but they really didn't relate to each other at all, or not much, usually not even in timelines.  (I could be wrong about some.)  I enjoy the books much more that way, and don't have to keep going back to remember where I left off hundreds of pages ago with someone's tale.

 

I probably won't wait, but I may, since so many websites are so very very good at furthering various character's arcs.  (Westeros, etc.)

 

Yikes!  I never considered Stannis and Sansa, and I hope that doesn't come to pass.  Interesting idea though!

 

Yes, I so agree.  I adore book Jamie and feel he is so well written and complex, but the TV show has absolutely wrecked all of the complicated poetry of his character.  It was bad enough, but then they pulled that Cersei rape and there just isn't any coming back from that.  The scene as written in the book was powerful and enlightening and extremely well set up.  On the show?  Total and complete bullshit, and as "not Jamie!" as it was possible to be.

With AFFC I remember reading all of the Jaime and Cersei chapters together and I thought it worked pretty well that way. I did some skimming with Brienne. I never would have caught the hint of the Hound if I hadn't seen it online. I didn't make much of Sam's chapters either but some of the glass candle theories are intriguing especially now that it seems the show is going to incorporate Oldtown and the Citadel. 

 

One thing that the show can't really play up and emphasize the way that the books can is the whole twin thing especially how they both seem to get off on how much they look like each other and how they feel complete when they're together sexually. The fact that they shared a womb seems like it's a BFD to both of them and I'm not even sure if their being twins has been mentioned again outside of the first season. The way they feed each other's egos--we don't really get a sense of that on the show and for me that was one of the key things to understanding their dynamic.

 

I also have always thought that Cersei's feelings for Jaime were a bit easier to understand than Jaime's feelings for Cersei. Cersei can at least make comparisons and in her opinion Jaime is the only person that she has ever enjoyed having sex with. Jaime has had no other experiences so it's like he's stuck in that adolescent place when he first fell in love with Cersei. Also, with Cersei, Jaime continues to give and give and protect and has since they were young. In the books when Cersei thinks about how she was the brave one between the two of them because she dared to touch one of the actual lions they had in the Casterly Rock menagerie and Jaime pulls her away probably just in the nick of time--it's like no, honey, you were clearly always the stupid one. 

[Holmbo]

I've been thinking a bit about last episode of the show and what it implies about the show knowing the end game. I was very upset at first thinking this burning of Shireen could not serve any plot purpose since it doesn't happen (at least at this point) in the books. I'm still angry at them putting it in the middle of an episode like that but when I thought about it I do think it fits into the bigger plot. Stannis choices here fits very well into how he's been portrayed by the show from the very start. As someone who's really determined to get the throne and will follow Melisandre's advice on how to get it no matter how horrible it is.

So this makes me wonder: did the show runners write Stannis with this knowledge in mind, that he will at one point burn his daughter?

And what does that mean to the difference in their portrayal of other characters?

For example people have complained that the adaption has regressed Jaime's development. Does this mean that GRRM has told them about something horrible Jaime does in future books and they're writing with this in mind?

I'm not saying that I think every change from the book characters is part of some bigger plan. Just that I think it's worth taking into account the show portrayal of the character when speculating where they're going to end up.

Edited June 13, 2015 by Holmbo

[ElizaD]

I prefer Sansa in the Vale because the show character has turned out to be too stupid to live, which I never thought in the books despite all the hate she gets. Sansa in the Vale may be more secure than she was in KL, but she's also learning things. The show's Winterfell plot, on the other hand, has wrecked any credibility she might have as a player: instead of committing the sin of being passive, she is actively idiotic when she makes an effort and rendered passive anyway by the people she tries to play. She agrees to marry Ramsay and wastes both her virginity, which is a political asset that could be used in the future in a way that actually helps her cause, and her marriage to Tyrion, which she sees in the books as a shield to avoid unwanted sexual attention and being once again married for her claim alone. She agrees to go to Winterfell to avenge her family: her stupidity has turned her happy childhood home into the site of yet another Bolton victory and Stark humiliation. Why should I ever root for her to return to Winterfell now that she has made it the place where, as the result of her failure as a player, she endured weeks (months?) of violent rape and imprisonment by the son of her brother's killer? Show Sansa is inevitably going to be inferior to Book Sansa, who won't have needed Bolton rape to develop as a player and turn on Littlefinger. The show didn't even go for a Jeyne/Manderly combination: Sansa has been pure victim (shouting at Reek and engaging in some pointless dinnertime sass before she was locked up is no great triumph), and her efforts to escape Winterfell are only character development because the showrunners chose to cut Book Sansa's efforts to escape KL and make her Littlefinger's passive puppet instead.

 

Show Sansa went to Winterfell to avenge her family and talked about how it's her home: right now, it's looking like she might be reduced to fleeing that home after allowing the Boltons to thoroughly degrade and outplay her. Her victory will be getting out of a situation she herself was stupid enough to enter due to the delusion that she could actually accomplish something, and her escape will take place after she was made Sansa Bolton and given reason to suffer lifelong trauma: even after the Boltons meet their inevitable deaths they will still have won, because what was done to her can never be undone and there will always be public and private reminders of her marriage to Ramsay. I used to defend Sansa a lot, but if she's so worthless that the showrunners get more excited about Ramsay's ADWD storyline than her credibility as a character and are fine with giving Sansa a plot that makes her simply Ramsay's plaything and a total failure as a player, it's no use expecting her TV version to ever be anything more than a joke character who inspires memes about her stupidity and how she's passed from one psycho to another. If the book plot absolutely requires Sansa to kill Littlefinger, it will be a lesser achievement on the show because she was so irredeemably stupid that she needed to be raped by Westeros' worst sadist to realize that she should turn on this shady backstabber.

 

Who was it that said Robert was fine with the deaths of Elia's children since that saved him from having to damage his image by being the one to actually kill them? IMO, he's the kind of character who would be fine with ordering a death from a distance, like he ordered Dany killed and approved of the sack of KL after the fact, and I could even see him killing children in an absolute fury if it was possible for him to react right away (what might have happened to Cersei's children if Ned had told him about them), but I think he's enough of a coward that ordering an execution, waiting for the day and then having to be present for it would make him uncomfortable since it's not a heroic, manly thing to do.

[Advance35]

Show Sansa is inevitably going to be inferior to Book Sansa, who won't have needed Bolton rape to develop as a player and turn on Littlefinger.

 

 

I think this presumes a lot that can't be verified until the books are out.     I guess I can't understand, (and in all honesty, I don't have to, everyone's entitled to their own outlook) how something bad happening to someone in what could be (unless she dies in Book 6 which is a possibility despite the many that think she'll wind up Queen/Consort/Wardeness or whatever) the mid point of their story, soils a character.    

 

Maybe Sansa's virtue or lack there of doesn't play a role in the fate GRRM has in mind for her.   Maybe she ends up assaulted by Harry, Petyr, The Mad Mouse or some other character.   How can someone's story be derailed when we don't know yet what that story, ultimately is.

 

I never know what kind of ending these characters will get, I know what I root for.   But GRRM could have Sansa NOT wind up a player at all.    He could have her lose everything and end up prostituting herself in Kings Landing, alternating between The Street of Silk and Pisswater Bend.   I think it INCREDIBLY unlikely but I can't say it's impossible.   GRRM is the author and invented the characters.  

 

I can't say which Sansa is superior yet between the Television and Book versions.   I personally would give the edge to the TV!Version, as I think she's going through more and seems to have a more pronounced inner steel than the book version.   That could certainly change IF the next book ever comes out.

 

And for some reason I feel like the relationship between LF and Sansa will ultimately surprise everyone.  I'm not sure how (and I have know doubt it's going to make some fans spit nails) but I think there will be a curve people won't see coming.

[benteen]

I've been thinking a bit about last episode of the show and what it implies about the show knowing the end game. I was very upset at first thinking this burning of Shireen could not serve any plot purpose since it doesn't happen (at least at this point) in the books. I'm still angry at them putting it in the middle of an episode like that but when I thought about it I do think it fits into the bigger plot. Stannis choices here fits very well into how he's been portrayed by the show from the very start. As someone who's really determined to get the throne and will follow Melisandre's advice on how to get it no matter how horrible it is.

So this makes me wonder: did the show runners write Stannis with this knowledge in mind, that he will at one point burn his daughter?

And what does that mean to the difference in their portrayal of other characters?

For example people have complained that the adaption has regressed Jaime's development. Does this mean that GRRM has told them about something horrible Jaime does in future books and they're writing with this in mind?

I'm not saying that I think every change from the book characters is part of some bigger plan. Just that I think it's worth taking into account the show portrayal of the character when speculating where they're going to end up.

 

It's a legitimate question to ask about Jaime and perhaps you're correct.  Though D and D have gone out of their way to make Cersei a more sympathetic character despite the fact she's committed a ton of horrible atrocities in the books and is absolutely NOT headed for redemption by the end of this series.

[MadMouse]

Maybe she ends up assaulted by Harry, Petyr, The Mad Mouse or some other character.

 

Hey now, those are fighting words.

[SeanC]

The Austrian Sky network as put the "Previously on..." for the season finale online.  It's basically all the expected stuff except for:

 

The mention of the disappearance of Benjen Stark way back in season 1.  I wonder what that's about?

 

Also, there's no mention of anything relating to warging, resurrection, or the Brotherhood Without Banners, for what it's worth.

Edited June 13, 2015 by SeanC

[Pete Martell]

  I've never really seen her as a sexy mature woman. Her way of seducing Littlefinger has been dying her hair black, dressing a little sexier and letting him kiss on her without really kissing him back. Which is pretty much the way a naive child would try to seduce somebody.

 

I haven't seen her that way either, but I think that was where they were going with the "reveal" last season. It was just like the romcom scenes where the shy girl gets a makeover and the boy looks up and her and goes gaga. I remember a lot of comments at the time about how "hot" she was, and speculation over where this would be going. 

 

Of course, it just ended up being another rape scene, but I do wonder if they set all this up for a future Baelish/Sansa sexual relationship, after getting the virginity part of the storyline out of the way. They seem to want to protect his character from getting too much blame.

I think this presumes a lot that can't be verified until the books are out.     I guess I can't understand, (and in all honesty, I don't have to, everyone's entitled to their own outlook) how something bad happening to someone in what could be (unless she dies in Book 6 which is a possibility despite the many that think she'll wind up Queen/Consort/Wardeness or whatever) the mid point of their story, soils a character.    

 

I don't know if I feel Sansa has been "soiled," but I do think most of what made her unique has been taken away. If I wanted to watch a long-suffering female who has little role on the show beyond "getting revenge," there were already 3 or 4 other poorly written female characters to choose from.

[Holmbo]

It's a legitimate question to ask about Jaime and perhaps you're correct. Though D and D have gone out of their way to make Cersei a more sympathetic character despite the fact she's committed a ton of horrible atrocities in the books and is absolutely NOT headed for redemption by the end of this series.

How do you know? Maybe she's going to regret her hateful ways and join the septas to repent? Then she'll overthrow the high sparrow and create a kind strong church which protects the rights of the small folk :)

Anyways I don't know that making people more sympathetic is as much of a clue. The show has made a lot of people lot more sympathetic.

Tyrion

Jorah

The Hound

Varys

To name a few.

But they seem to have something against Jaime. I doubt there's anything to it. But in light of the Stannis reveal its worth considering. What could he have for end game that makes D&D think he shouldn't be too sympathetic? Maybe Tyrion comes back as an enemy to the Lannisters and Jaime kills him.

It could just be that they just don't think he can never be redeemed anyway because of his past actions. Or they just think people enjoy him more if he's darker gray.

[snowblossom2]

Hey now, those are fighting words.

The reason I don't by the "we don't know if Sansa gets abused by someone else" reason is because they're not making up the Bolton storyline for her, if they did, I would agree, but they are switching a storyline from one character to another

[benteen]

How do you know? Maybe she's going to regret her hateful ways and join the septas to repent? Then she'll overthrow the high sparrow and create a kind strong church which protects the rights of the small folk :)

Anyways I don't know that making people more sympathetic is as much of a clue. The show has made a lot of people lot more sympathetic.

Tyrion

Jorah

The Hound

Varys

To name a few.

But they seem to have something against Jaime. I doubt there's anything to it. But in light of the Stannis reveal its worth considering. What could he have for end game that makes D&D think he shouldn't be too sympathetic? Maybe Tyrion comes back as an enemy to the Lannisters and Jaime kills him.

It could just be that they just don't think he can never be redeemed anyway because of his past actions. Or they just think people enjoy him more if he's darker gray.

 

I just don't see redemption for Cersei.  Maybe at the very end she'll realize what an idiot she was.  But I think she's going over the cliff and taking a bunch of people with her.

[MadMouse]

The reason I don't by the "we don't know if Sansa gets abused by someone else" reason is because they're not making up the Bolton storyline for her, if they did, I would agree, but they are switching a storyline from one character to another

 

I wasn't being serious with my comment it was a bad joke since you mentioned the Mad Mouse.

[Holmbo]

I just don't see redemption for Cersei. Maybe at the very end she'll realize what an idiot she was. But I think she's going over the cliff and taking a bunch of people with her.

No I was only joking. I don't for a second see her having a change of heart.

[Avaleigh]

I prefer Sansa in the Vale because the show character has turned out to be too stupid to live, which I never thought in the books despite all the hate she gets. Sansa in the Vale may be more secure than she was in KL, but she's also learning things. The show's Winterfell plot, on the other hand, has wrecked any credibility she might have as a player: instead of committing the sin of being passive, she is actively idiotic when she makes an effort and rendered passive anyway by the people she tries to play. She agrees to marry Ramsay and wastes both her virginity, which is a political asset that could be used in the future in a way that actually helps her cause, and her marriage to Tyrion, which she sees in the books as a shield to avoid unwanted sexual attention and being once again married for her claim alone. She agrees to go to Winterfell to avenge her family: her stupidity has turned her happy childhood home into the site of yet another Bolton victory and Stark humiliation. Why should I ever root for her to return to Winterfell now that she has made it the place where, as the result of her failure as a player, she endured weeks (months?) of violent rape and imprisonment by the son of her brother's killer? Show Sansa is inevitably going to be inferior to Book Sansa, who won't have needed Bolton rape to develop as a player and turn on Littlefinger. The show didn't even go for a Jeyne/Manderly combination: Sansa has been pure victim (shouting at Reek and engaging in some pointless dinnertime sass before she was locked up is no great triumph), and her efforts to escape Winterfell are only character development because the showrunners chose to cut Book Sansa's efforts to escape KL and make her Littlefinger's passive puppet instead.

 

Show Sansa went to Winterfell to avenge her family and talked about how it's her home: right now, it's looking like she might be reduced to fleeing that home after allowing the Boltons to thoroughly degrade and outplay her. Her victory will be getting out of a situation she herself was stupid enough to enter due to the delusion that she could actually accomplish something, and her escape will take place after she was made Sansa Bolton and given reason to suffer lifelong trauma: even after the Boltons meet their inevitable deaths they will still have won, because what was done to her can never be undone and there will always be public and private reminders of her marriage to Ramsay. I used to defend Sansa a lot, but if she's so worthless that the showrunners get more excited about Ramsay's ADWD storyline than her credibility as a character and are fine with giving Sansa a plot that makes her simply Ramsay's plaything and a total failure as a player, it's no use expecting her TV version to ever be anything more than a joke character who inspires memes about her stupidity and how she's passed from one psycho to another. If the book plot absolutely requires Sansa to kill Littlefinger, it will be a lesser achievement on the show because she was so irredeemably stupid that she needed to be raped by Westeros' worst sadist to realize that she should turn on this shady backstabber.

I don't think Sansa is being portrayed as being "too stupid to live" on the show. Not at all. Ramsay actually acknowledges that there's some truth in what she says about the whole bastard issue. I think it makes sense for her to want to play on any insecurities he has about his father's marriage to Walda. She's working with what she has and so far I disagree that she's behaving idiotically this season. There were things she couldn't have predicted and she has no way of knowing everything that Theon has gone through at the hands of Ramsay. Yara too was shocked at the change in Theon and she didn't know him as well as Sansa did. 

 

As far as the idea that she wasted her virginity on Ramsay--virginity isn't played up in the same way that it is on the show and Margaery is a perfect example of that. Her virginity is a BFD in the books and in the show it isn't seen as being a big deal. She was "officially" a virgin for Renly even though Loras admitted that she isn't one and nobody really cares. Sansa's name is what is important and her beauty pretty much guarantees that it's unlikely that somebody is going to be hung up on whether or not she's a virgin. Nobody is going to care that Dany isn't a virgin. Olenna's objection to Cersei was her age not the fact that she wasn't a virgin.

 

I disagree that having a character be raped automatically makes that character inferior to one who hasn't been raped. 

 

I also disagree we the idea that we shouldn't want to root for Sansa to take back Winterfell because she was raped there. The rape doesn't change her identity or change the fact that it's her home. She's still Sansa Stark of Winterfell and I think she'll be able to accomplish making Winterfell the seat of the Starks once again. I'm not convinced that she's going to runaway as Jeyne and Theon did.

 

I don't think the Ramsay situation is necessarily even going to be what gets Sansa to turn on Littlefinger. It can add to it and she might feel resentful but I think it's going to boil down to how he fucked her family over. 

[SeanC]

I don't think Sansa is being portrayed as being "too stupid to live" on the show.

She allowed herself to be dragged from Runestone to Moat Cailin, a distance of hundreds of miles, without ever asking where they were going; agreed to marry Ramsay with absolutely no details as to what the point of this was; and has done nothing, since arriving in Winterfell, beyond sulk, get abused and raped, and spout "cool" one-liners.  There's no trace of any of the character development that episode 408 suggested we were going to see (beyond, until episode 506, her wardrobe).

Edited June 14, 2015 by SeanC

[Avaleigh]

She allowed herself to be dragged from Runestone to Moat Cailin, a distance of hundreds of miles, without ever asking where they were going; agreed to marry Ramsay with absolutely no details as to what the point of this was; and has done nothing, since arriving in Winterfell, beyond sulk, get abused and raped, and spout "cool" one-liners.  There's no trace of any of the character development that episode 408 suggested we were going to see (beyond, until episode 506, her wardrobe).

I thought it was obvious that the point to her of marrying Ramsay was to get her foot back in the door with regard to Winterfell by marrying the heir of the guy who is currently in charge. I don't even think she had "cool" one liners I just think she's said a few truthful things that people have responded to because they're true. Winterfell is her home. She is Sansa Stark and she isn't particularly scared of Myranda. Ramsay and Tommen are bastards and Roose's marriage to Walda is a threat to Ramsay. 

 

As for why she didn't ask about where they were going, I think in the back of her mind she might have had a feeling. 

 

I see a continuation of the character development that we saw in 4.08. There we had Sansa telling simple truths about who she is and people responded to it. There isn't anything from that episode last season that would make me think that she should be able to handle Ramsay seamlessly but to me this doesn't make her stupid, just human. Same with the sulking. She's locked up in a room, I feel like I would probably sulk a bit too. 

[SeanC]

I thought it was obvious that the point to her of marrying Ramsay was to get her foot back in the door with regard to Winterfell by marrying the heir of the guy who is currently in charge.

She's supposedly there on being urged to "avenge" her family.  So you think she's going to do that by marrying into her family's murderers?

 

I see a continuation of the character development that we saw in 4.08. There we had Sansa telling simple truths about who she is and people responded to it. There isn't anything from that episode last season that would make me think that she should be able to handle Ramsay seamlessly but to me this doesn't make her stupid, just human. Same with the sulking. She's locked up in a room, I feel like I would probably sulk a bit too.

 

 

She wasn't "telling simple truths" in episode 408.  She was making calculated strategic assessments of people and deploying her background and a mixture of the truth and lies to achieve a result she wanted, i.e., playing the game of thrones.  And the season ended with the rather obvious point that she was seeking to use her sexuality to manipulate Baelish.  Absolutely none of this is seen in season 5.

 

She was sulking in episode 505-506, before she was locked up in a room.

[Avaleigh]

She's supposedly there on being urged to "avenge" her family.  So you think she's going to do that by marrying into her family's murderers?

 

She wasn't "telling simple truths" in episode 408.  She was making calculated strategic assessments of people and deploying her background and a mixture of the truth and lies to achieve a result she wanted, i.e., playing the game of thrones.  And the season ended with the rather obvious point that she was seeking to use her sexuality to manipulate Baelish.  Absolutely none of this is seen in season 5.

 

She was sulking in episode 505-506, before she was locked up in a room.

If I learned anything from TWOIAF it's that marrying into an enemy house is a recurring theme in this world and numerous characters in this world have been expected to do it. I don't see why it's any different for Sansa. She's attempting to ensure that her blood is going to be part of the next generation at Winterfell.  

 

Again, I would probably sulk a bit too if I found myself in that situation. I don't see how that makes her stupid. 

 

In s4e8 she tells them who she actually is. That is a simple truth. She didn't go with the lie that she was Alayne. She told them that Lysa was crazy in love with Petyr to the point where she basically lost her mind--perfectly true. 

 

I think it's odd too that Sansa is accused of being stupid enough to believe Petyr when he encourages her to marry Ramsay but that she isn't considered to be stupid in 4.08 when she saves Littlefinger's life. I don't think she's stupid in either scenario but I don't really understand why she's criticized for trusting him in this season when she was trusting him last season. (Or at least trusting that LF was the lesser of two evils even though she has no cause to think that the Lords Declarant wished her any harm.) 

[WearyTraveler]

I've tried to stay away from the Sansa controversy because it seems to be such a hot button, but...

 

She's supposedly there on being urged to "avenge" her family.  So you think she's going to do that by marrying into her family's murderers?

 

That is playing the game.  That is how LF gained the Vale, by marrying Lysa who had aborted his son and married Jon Arryn choosing not to defy her father for him.  Justified or not, it is clear that LF feels that the Tullys wronged him and he set out to get revenge.  He set in motion the wheels that got Catelyn and Ned involved, got Ned imprisoned, seduced Lysa, married her, swiftly murdered her and got named Lord Protector.

 

If Sansa is learning from LF that's one lesson he would teach: "marry your enemy so you can betray him/her from within"

 

She wasn't "telling simple truths" in episode 408.  She was making calculated strategic assessments of people and deploying her background and a mixture of the truth and lies to achieve a result she wanted, i.e., playing the game of thrones.  And the season ended with the rather obvious point that she was seeking to use her sexuality to manipulate Baelish.  Absolutely none of this is seen in season 5.

 

 

So, one play paid off, the other hasn't, so far.  Playing the game and winning the game are two different things.  As to using her sexuality to manipulate Baelish, that's one interpretation, but I don't think it's the only one possible from that scene.  It could be that it was supposed to represent her leaving behind her childish notions of Knights and Ladies.  It could be that it was supposed to represent her growing up, or her falling for LF who, up to that point had been her savior (never mind that he created the circumstances that put her in peril in the first place).

 

She was sulking in episode 505-506, before she was locked up in a room.

 

She is seeing her ancestral home, the place of so many happy memories burnt and flying the Bolton banners.  All her people, and her father's people gone, why isn't she allowed to sulk?

 

I think many people want Sansa to be a certain way, cunning like Olenna, badass like Danny, a leader like Jon, and it may be that she will eventually be all those things,; but I will say this: had she been all those things this season, I wouldn't have bought it.  It's true her character had some interesting developments last year, but those were nowhere big enough to make her this cunning player so many people want her to be.

[SeanC]

If I learned anything from TWOIAF it's that marrying into an enemy house is a recurring theme in this world and numerous characters in this world have been expected to do it. I don't see why it's any different for Sansa. She's attempting to ensure that her blood is going to be part of the next generation at Winterfell.  

Again, no, she's there to "avenge them"...somehow.

 

Again, I would probably sulk a bit too if I found myself in that situation. I don't see how that makes her stupid.

It makes her stupid because she put herself in that situation supposedly as some sort of scheme, but does absolutely nothing while there, not even attempting to charm Ramsay, which was the one thing Littlefinger suggested she do.

 

In s4e8 she tells them who she actually is. That is a simple truth. She didn't go with the lie that she was Alayne. She told them that Lysa was crazy in love with Petyr to the point where she basically lost her mind--perfectly true.

She told them that Petyr kissed her on the cheek and that Lysa went crazy with jealously and committed suicide.  Perfectly false.  There's no "simple truths" in what Sansa says; it's a story she concocts to get a specific result that she wants.  Which is that she wants to rescue the "devil she knows" to achieve some further purpose.  But the end of that season clearly indicates that she's as much looking to manipulate Littlefinger, indicating that she does not trust him -- again, a plot point that season 5 drops entirely, as she credulously does whatever he says and never once attempts anything like a separate agenda.

That is playing the game.  That is how LF gained the Vale, by marrying Lysa who had aborted his son and married Jon Arryn choosing not to defy her father for him.  Justified or not, it is clear that LF feels that the Tullys wronged him and he set out to get revenge.  He set in motion the wheels that got Catelyn and Ned involved, got Ned imprisoned, seduced Lysa, married her, swiftly murdered her and got named Lord Protector.

 

If Sansa is learning from LF that's one lesson he would teach: "marry your enemy so you can betray him/her from within"

Except none of that was in the show, and there is never any remotely credible reason why Sansa would want to marry the Boltons, because it gains her nothing (as, indeed, once she gets there she becomes completely powerless). The Littlefinger/Lysa comparison is a complete non-starter

 

So, one play paid off, the other hasn't, so far.  Playing the game and winning the game are two different things.  As to using her sexuality to manipulate Baelish, that's one interpretation, but I don't think it's the only one possible from that scene.  It could be that it was supposed to represent her leaving behind her childish notions of Knights and Ladies.  It could be that it was supposed to represent her growing up, or her falling for LF who, up to that point had been her savior (never mind that he created the circumstances that put her in peril in the first place).

Playing the game means, first and foremost, having a plan that makes some modicum of sense, and demonstrating brains, neither of which she's done this season.

I don't see how that last scene could be interpreted as showing her falling for Littlefinger, based on the preceding scene.

 

She is seeing her ancestral home, the place of so many happy memories burnt and flying the Bolton banners.  All her people, and her father's people gone, why isn't she allowed to sulk?

Because, again, she's supposedly there to avenge her family and manipulate the Boltons, and she is not making the slightest attempt at doing either of those things.

Edited June 14, 2015 by SeanC

[Hecate7]

She's supposedly there on being urged to "avenge" her family.  So you think she's going to do that by marrying into her family's murderers?

 

 

Well, considering that she's NOT going to do it by sending her ginormous army that she hasn't got, or by coming in swinging a broadsword she can't lift, or by knocking on the door and saying, "Hey, guess what, I'm here to kill you," yes, actually, that is the ONLY way she can avenge her family. She has to infiltrate, and the only way to do that is by pretending to give them something they want. She's got one thing they want, and so she must pretend to be giving them that.

 

That is how it's done.This does not make her stupid, it does not make her a victim, it does not make her any less intelligent than Jon Snow or Tyrion or Danaerys. And in fact it demonstrates that she is considerably MORE intelligent than Cersei, Robb, or Catelyn. She may not be up there with Baelish, Varys, or Maester Aemon, but she's certainly more intelligent than most, and she's doing all that can be done with it.

[SeanC]

Well, considering that she's NOT going to do it by sending her ginormous army that she hasn't got, or by coming in swinging a broadsword she can't lift, or by knocking on the door and saying, "Hey, guess what, I'm here to kill you," yes, actually, that is the ONLY way she can avenge her family. She has to infiltrate, and the only way to do that is by pretending to give them something they want. She's got one thing they want, and so she must pretend to be giving them that.

In fact, there is a "ginormous army", in the Vale...the very one that Littlefinger is planning to use in the very same season, the one lead by lords whose friendship Sansa was cultivating at the end of last season.

 

Infiltration only makes sense if you can actually accomplish something by doing that.  What was she expecting to accomplish?  Literally the only thing Baelish suggested she do was charm Ramsay, which she didn't even attempt; she just sat around sulking, making it perfectly clear that she hates all of them, and waiting to be rescued.

[Avaleigh]

Again, no, she's there to "avenge them"...somehow.

 

It makes her stupid because she put herself in that situation supposedly as some sort of scheme, but does absolutely nothing while there, not even attempting to charm Ramsay, which was the one thing Littlefinger suggested she do.

 

She told them that Petyr kissed her on the cheek and that Lysa went crazy with jealously and committed suicide.  Perfectly false.  There's no "simple truths" in what Sansa says; it's a story she concocts to get a specific result that she wants.  Which is that she wants to rescue the "devil she knows" to achieve some further purpose.  But the end of that season clearly indicates that she's as much looking to manipulate Littlefinger, indicating that she does not trust him -- again, a plot point that season 5 drops entirely, as she credulously does whatever he says and never once attempts anything like a separate agenda.

Except none of that was in the show, and there is never any remotely credible reason why Sansa would want to marry the Boltons, because it gains her nothing (as, indeed, once she gets there she becomes completely powerless). The Littlefinger/Lysa comparison is a complete non-starter

 

Playing the game means, first and foremost, having a plan that makes some modicum of sense, and demonstrating brains, neither of which she's done this season.

I don't see how that last scene could be interpreted as showing her falling for Littlefinger, based on the preceding scene.

 

Because, again, she's supposedly there to avenge her family and manipulate the Boltons, and she is not making the slightest attempt at doing either of those things.

Since you accept what the showrunners mean by the avenge comment then surely you accept it when they say that Sansa didn't realize that marriage to Ramsay would be as bad as it is. She wasn't deluded enough to think that he'd be nice or that he'd be some courteous lord she just didn't think he'd be *that* horrible. Theon couldn't imagine that Ramsay could be that horrible. Littlefinger supposedly doesn't know that Ramsay is that horrible. How is it that Sansa is stupid for not knowing? 

 

Initially she did tell LF that she didn't want to do it but he talked her into thinking that this would be the best way of taking revenge. I disagree that this makes her stupid. So far she sees him as the man who helped rescue her from the snake pit of King's Landing so it isn't hard for me to believe that she'd take his advice. 

 

I don't think it's true at all that she isn't making the slightest attempt to manipulate the Boltons. I thought that was what her conversation with Ramsay was about when she brings up how a trueborn son between Roose and Walda will always be a threat to Ramsay. I have my doubts that it would be Roose's preference for Sansa to go around saying things like that to Ramsay. 

 

Lysa was crazed with jealousy over Petyr. This was perfectly true. Yes, she also lied in order to save Littlefinger's neck because she thought it was better to stick with the devil she knows. She said that Littlefinger was her only friend in KL a place where she was otherwise friendless. This is all perfectly true from her perspective. She tells them who she is, she tells them that Lysa's feelings for LF are what made her freak out, and she tells them that LF has been a friend to her when she's needed it most. (Again, from her perspective.) These are the things I'm talking about when I say that she was simply telling the truth. I wasn't trying to deny that she told lies as well in order to save Littlefinger. Most of what she was saying was the truth though at least the truth as she sees it. 

[SeanC]

Since you accept what the showrunners mean by the avenge comment then surely you accept it when they say that Sansa didn't realize that marriage to Ramsay would be as bad as it is. She wasn't deluded enough to think that he'd be nice or that he'd be some courteous lord she just didn't think he'd be *that* horrible. Theon couldn't imagine that Ramsay could be that horrible. Littlefinger supposedly doesn't know that Ramsay is that horrible. How is it that Sansa is stupid for not knowing? 

Where did I say Sansa was stupid for not knowing about Ramsay? 

[Avaleigh]

I was responding to you saying that she was stupid for putting herself in the situation in the first place. If she'd known about Ramsay then she wouldn't have put herself in the situation. 

[Skeeter22]

The Sansa plot wouldn't have been so terrible if they hadn't gone out of their way to make sure she was completely at Ramsay' s mercy. Why would Littlefinger take her there, with no intelligence on the Boltons, and then immediately abandon her with no guard or even loyal servants? Was it really necessary in the show for Littlefinger to go to King's Landing? The audience could have just as easily been let on to his scheme with him remaining in Winterfell.

Why were there no Northern lords staying at Winterfell? I'm not suggesting they needed the complete Manderley plot, but a few glorified extras wouldn't have hurt. They could have upped the tension considerably and made the Boltons hold on the North appear tenuous. This season, the only threat to the Boltons has been Stannis, and he's been a very distant threat. It makes no sense for the Boltons to not advertise Ramsay's marriage to Sansa to their bannermen. How can she legitimize their claim if no one knows she's there?

Where is Roose? He can't possibly think it's a good idea for Ramsay to keep the real Sansa Stark locked away. Sansa isn't friendless Jeyne Poole. He knows Sansa has a powerful ally in Littlefinger. The whole point of Littlefinger making the alliance was that Roose would receive aid from the Vale. It makes no sense for Roose to allow her to be abused this way. They haven't even explained it away by implying he can't control Ramsay or he doesn't know what's going on.

Leaving Sansa no room to maneuver and the Boltons no reason to panic or keep themselves in check sucks all the tension and growth potential out of the story. I think it has hurt every character involved.

[Hecate7]

In fact, there is a "ginormous army", in the Vale...the very one that Littlefinger is planning to use in the very same season, the one lead by lords whose friendship Sansa was cultivating at the end of last season.

 

Infiltration only makes sense if you can actually accomplish something by doing that.  What was she expecting to accomplish?  Literally the only thing Baelish suggested she do was charm Ramsay, which she didn't even attempt; she just sat around sulking, making it perfectly clear that she hates all of them, and waiting to be rescued.

 

An army exists. That doesn't mean they take orders from Sansa.

[SeanC]

An army exists. That doesn't mean they take orders from Sansa.

They take orders from Littlefinger just fine, as we see.  And they are responsible to her cousin, and led by powerful lords who are Stark-friendly.  Any reasonable plan of action (like, for instance, the one she's trying to carry out in the books, and Littlefinger's in the show) would involve bringing them into play, or, failing that, attempting to cultivate all the Stark loyalists who apparently exist offscreen in the North.  She does neither, opting instead to become a hostage of the Boltons waiting to be rescued (which is what she is in the plan Littlefinger gives her, not just what happens because she misjudged Ramsay).