Television Vs. Book: Why'd They Make [Spoiler] Such A [Spoiler]?

[Avaleigh]

We still only have one secret legit Targ IMO. Jon is the secret Targaryen and Tyrion is a secret Targ bastard. I think Tyrion is a Hill.

 

I'd forgotten about the dream of Tyrion having two heads. I'm reminded again of Maelys the Monstrous.  

 

I think for some people the idea is that Tywin's treatment of Tyrion is suddenly justified if this turns out to be true or that it somehow lets Tywin off of the hook and I disagree. Tywin still has to be held accountable for victimizing an innocent person who had been left in his care.

 

As for the idea that Tywin would have killed Tyrion if he'd had even the slightest doubt that Tyrion wasn't his--again, I disagree. I feel like this oversimplifies the situation that Tywin was dealing with. First there's the whole kinslaying thing. If Tywin is wrong then he'll have committed one of the worst sins. He might not have wanted to risk it. It also might even still be kinslaying even if Tyrion isn't his since he and Tyrion would still be cousins. I'm thinking of the fact that we know Tywin wanted to do away with Tyrion but held back because Tyrion is a Lannister. Then there are Tywin's feelings for Joanna and the strong hold that she is said to have had on him. I can see love for Joanna keeping Tywin from killing Tyrion. I can also see Tywin fearing that any action like that on his part would give confirmation to the rumors that Aerys had raped Joanna or had an affair with her. (I'm officially convinced that it was rape and not an affair.) 

[nksarmi]

Personally I think it would be fantastic if Cersei and Jamie were the result of Aerys rape and Tryion was Tywin's only true child, but haven't people said that was disproven in the Word Book?

 

I want Tyrion to ride a dragon, but I don't think he would need to be a Targ to do it.  I think Bran could warg a dragon and let Tyrion ride as a result.  I believe Bran will be grateful for Tyrion since he was the first person who told him he didn't need to let the fact that he was a cripple limit him and I have always believed that "You won't walk again, but you will fly" means that Bran will bond with a dragon.  After the "All dwarves are cripples in their father's eyes" line - I can see these two forming a unique alliance in the end.
 

[GreyBunny]

I've wondered about the chimera idea.  I would have liked the idea that Jaime and Cersei were Aerys's and Tyrion was Tywin's only true offspring but Tyrion being a chimera would be satisfying as well.  He can be Tywin's and yet still get that dash of Targ blood needed to qualify him as a dragonseed (per the Princess and the Queen).

 

The thing that puzzles me is that Tywin didn't let Tyrion go with Uncle Gerion to find the family sword.  Tyrion wanted to go, Gerion loved him, and Tywin could get a walking manifestation of his embarrassment away from court and on a high-risk mission without outright killing him.  Win all around.  Instead his desire to ruin his son's fun outweighed the advantages of letting him go.

 

Jaime and Cersei aren't Aerys's.  The dates are wrong.  Joanna had been back at Casterly rock for at least two years before she conceived the twins.  She was nowhere near Aerys. 

[Danny Franks]

Can I just say, not every little paragraph, sentence and phrase has to be a piece of heavy foreshadowing. Sometimes it's just GRRM waxing lyrical.

[nksarmi]

Can I just say, not every little paragraph, sentence and phrase has to be a piece of heavy foreshadowing. Sometimes it's just GRRM waxing lyrical.

Given how wordy he can be - most likely most of what he writes isn't foreshadowing - even those things that seem like they should be.  However, I do like to give an extra look to anything that makes it into the show.

[SeanC]

Since we're at the halfway point in the season, my assessments of each segment:

 

The Wall - Wow, what a difference a year makes.  Honestly, not a whole lot to say about this one, other than it's really good, and it feels like the writers are finally doing justice to characters like Jon and Stannis (the transformation regarding the latter, especially, is striking).  In many ways, I'm sad to see Team Dragonstone shipping out and Jon soon to go on his mission (and, it seems, Sam and Gilly soon to go as well, with Aemon soon to be among the dearly departed), because I think it's remarkable how well this ensemble clicked.

 

King's Landing - Started out pretty good, but I'm less and less positive toward this the more it goes on.  There are some issues that I already factored into my expectations (such as the ongoing travesty that is Gay Loras), but a lot of the plotting here is just plain weird.  I think I've already mentioned this, but Cersei not be Queen Regent anymore just messes up this whole plotline to the point where it makes no logical sense (if she's not regent, why is she in charge?  Why do characters like Kevan, who clearly disapprove of what she's doing, not just go around her and speak to Tommen themselves?  Why is Margaery not seeking to take the position that Cersei occupies?).  And, after last season seemed to set up the Iron Bank debt stuff as a motive for Cersei's actions, instead that element is dropped entirely, meaning that she herself just spontaneously gives the church an army for the sole purpose of going after Loras and Margaery.  Still well-acted and everything, but the show's lack of attention to detail is really throwing me for a loop here, especially since the changes are so unnecessary.

 

Meereen - Eh, on the balance I'd say this is going well, though after a really good start I think Dany's portrayal went a bit wild last week (and, much like in KL, they produced a major book plot development completely shorn of its context in a way that I don't really think makes a lot of sense).

 

Braavos - The first episode of this (which we really haven't seen much of yet) was a bit slow, but I thought the second showed promise.  The second half will really tell the tale here.  But yay, Arya finally has some new clothes!

 

Dorne - This has attracted many fan complaints, but to be honest, I think this arc works reasonably well on its own terms, and Jaime's characterization mainly makes sense to me.  Ellaria's complete personality transplant, and what that says about the show's handling of GRRM's pacifist themes, still bugs me, though.

 

Winterfell - The great combo plot of 2015, where three storylines are turned into one (or, perhaps, two storylines get cut and Sansa and Brienne get slotted into the roles of other characters in a third story).  Anyway, the acting here is great, and many of the emotional beats work when looked at in isolation.  But the plotting and character motivations required for everybody other than Brienne are basically preposterous, and I remain deeply unconvinced that trying to merge Sansa's arc of learning to play the game of thrones and Jeyne Poole's arc of grotesque victimization and damselhood will have any chance of working.

[Hecate7]

Personally I think it would be fantastic if Cersei and Jamie were the result of Aerys rape and Tryion was Tywin's only true child, but haven't people said that was disproven in the Word Book?

 

I want Tyrion to ride a dragon, but I don't think he would need to be a Targ to do it.  I think Bran could warg a dragon and let Tyrion ride as a result.  I believe Bran will be grateful for Tyrion since he was the first person who told him he didn't need to let the fact that he was a cripple limit him and I have always believed that "You won't walk again, but you will fly" means that Bran will bond with a dragon.  After the "All dwarves are cripples in their father's eyes" line - I can see these two forming a unique alliance in the end.

 

 

The line is "all dwarves are bastards in their fathers' eyes." Tyrion will bond with Jon Snow. He will also most likely reveal to the audience, if not himself, that he is in fact a bastard. I don't think he and Bran will meet. I don't think Bran will actually leave the tree, but I think he will warg a dragon and/or its rider. To actually sit on a dragon you have to have Targaryen blood, but Bran has a way to cheat that rule.

[GreyBunny]

SeanC I agree about the Wall.  The Castle Black Crew and Team Dragonstone were good separately, put them together and it was magic.  Jon and Stannis forging a mutual respect, Shireen teaching Gilly to read, and Stannis finding value in Sam as a scholar, something Randall Tarly and some in the Night's Watch never did.

Edited May 17, 2015 by GreyBunny

[Holmbo]

Does the order of the segments represents how you rank them SeanC?

My rank so far is:

The wall

Winterfell

Tyrion

Kingslanding

Mereen

Dorne

Arya

I agree that the character motivations for the winterfell plot to happen makes little sense. But I'm willing to forgive it because I think it improves both Sansa's and the winterfell plot. Maybe I'll change my mind about it further in the season but right now I find it very compelling.

With the kingslanding I agree with all of your assessment. And also adding that Margaerys disinterest in the actual ruling makes her totally unrootable to me. Why do I care if she win over Cersei?

[Shanna]

I need more arya at this point....

Edited May 17, 2015 by Shanna

[Danny Franks]

They've ruined the Dornish stuff, in my view.

 

I liked Arianne and Arys, thought that was a nice little narrative, and it gave the storyline some resonance beyond the usual petty politics. And while I thought Quentyn was an incredibly useless character in his own right, the existence of him and Arianne gave us that kickass reveal of "fire and blood", when Doran unveiled the long game he'd been playing, all these years, to get revenge.

 

Without any of that, it's just a bunch of paper thin female warrior characters being dicks to people, and an old man in a wheelchair who doesn't do anything. Woo.

[FurryFury]

Dornish stuff in the show honestly feels like filler. In the book, it was a whole new setting, new characters, new rules - it served to show the worldbuilding, to set up Doran's plan and was honestly a pretty good story in itself (at least for me, I liked almost all characters). However, Quentyn turned out to be pointless and the show has (wisely) decided to avoid using both him and Aegon (thus no point for Aryenne as well)... Not sure if they should have gone to Dorne at all, TBH. Stripped from so many stuff, this narrative feels useless.

[Oscirus]

Tyrion will bond with Jon Snow.

 

Haven't they already bonded? Hell, the only reason that John started training people was because Tyrion advised him to do so.  I do think that they will eventually reunite though.

 

I'm starting to think that aging up Tommen was a huge mistake. It makes no sense that he's seemingly agreed to let his mother run everything without at least being there.  Margery's seduction game is looking weak. She literally left Tommen with Cersei, allowing Cersei plenty of time to poison his mind against her.

 

In general, other then Dany's story in Mereen this season has felt like one huge setup to get characters where they need to be in order for the story to get to the endgame.  Then again this is my first season watching in real time so maybe I'm just not used to the pace.

[SeanC]

Does the order of the segments represents how you rank them SeanC?

No, that was more or less the order I thought of them (though I saved Winterfell for last).  My order would be:

 

1.  The Wall

2.  Meereen

3.  Tyrion & Jorah (I forgot to include this in my initial ranking; it's fine for what it is, since I knew from the beginning that we'd be getting St. Tyrion and Nice Guy Jorah)

4.  Winterfell/King's Landing

5.  Braavos

6.  Dorne

[benteen]

Haven't they already bonded? Hell, the only reason that John started training people was because Tyrion advised him to do so.  I do think that they will eventually reunite though.

 

I'm starting to think that aging up Tommen was a huge mistake. It makes no sense that he's seemingly agreed to let his mother run everything without at least being there.  Margery's seduction game is looking weak. She literally left Tommen with Cersei, allowing Cersei plenty of time to poison his mind against her.

 

In general, other then Dany's story in Mereen this season has felt like one huge setup to get characters where they need to be in order for the story to get to the endgame.  Then again this is my first season watching in real time so maybe I'm just not used to the pace.

 

Yeah, with Tommen as old as he had, it makes little sense for Cersei to still be there.

 

As for Dorne, it's hard to ruin something that wasn't that good in the first place.  Though through the first five episodes they've made sure that Dorne won't be getting any better.  Though I enjoy Jaime and Bronn on the road.

Edited May 17, 2015 by benteen

[jjjmoss]

I do enjoy Arianne as a character enough to find Dorne somewhat good in the books. But here she doesn't exist, so.

 

1. Winterfell

2. King's Landing

End of list.

[Avaleigh]

The Wall (although I'm not looking forward to it as much now that Stannis and Mel are gone. I'm mainly looking forward to Hardhome.)

 

King's Landing (I actually agree with SeanC's points about everything that's wrong with this story but it's still one of the most interesting parts of the season for me.)

 

Winterfell (I'm riveted so far. Not knowing exactly how Brienne is going to factor into it all is an exciting bonus.)

 

Dorne (I dislike what I've seen of the Sand Snakes and Ellaria so far, but I've loved every scene with Jaime and Bronn and like that I don't know what's going to happen.)

 

Meereen (I'm fine with how the story is being told I'm just mostly waiting for the pit scene so when there's a scene where someone is trying to convince Dany to reopen them I find myself drifting a bit.)

 

Braavos (The only positive thing I have to say about this story so far is that I like the actors who are playing the two characters in the House of Black and White with Arya. I'm assuming the blind thing will come up and I'll know that it's going to resolve itself so it isn't something I'm particularly looking forward to and in general hope we don't spend too much time on this.)

[Knuckles]

Since the battle at the Wall and the arrival of Stannis, everything there has been compelling. Especially giving Stannis fresh characters to interact with...still, he hasn't spoken with Aemon, which is a little disappointing.

Winterfell...I like the addition of Brienne and Pod to that storyline, and am waiting to see how long poor Walda survives. Ramsey and Roose are totally evil and totally compelling.

And, I can't wait to see Littlefinger in the reformed King's Landing. Exactly what does Cersei want with him? Some of his money magic to fend off the Iron Bank?

Food from the Vale? 

And in Bravos...have Mace and Meryn arrived? 

And if Dany is going badass, as opposed to well meaning but utterly ineffectual, I am fine with that. 

[Avaleigh]

It'd be nice to get a little bit more on the Bolton family tree. I'm assuming that Roose doesn't have any brothers or nephews and maybe doesn't even have any siblings.

 

You'd think it'd be easier to take a nephew under his wing than to deal with the instability of Ramsay but I guess Roose doesn't feel like he has any choice. I know it's a plot thing but it doesn't really make sense why he wasn't married years ago. It's like he needed to be conveniently single so that there could be a union between two of the most disliked houses. 

 

 

Winterfell...I like the addition of Brienne and Pod to that storyline, and am waiting to see how long poor Walda survives. Ramsey and Roose are totally evil and totally compelling.

And, I can't wait to see Littlefinger in the reformed King's Landing. Exactly what does Cersei want with him? Some of his money magic to fend off the Iron Bank?

I can't decide if Walda is at risk or not. I can't see her having a death that would be too similar to Talisa's but I can also see how it would make sense to Ramsay to get rid of both threats at the same time. OTOH what's to stop Roose from retaliating. Not only that but it isn't as though Roose can't remarry. In a way it would almost make sense to just take out Roose if he thought he could get away with it. 

 

I too am looking forward to Littlefinger's return. I almost think anything could potentially happen here apart from him being at risk for being killed which I don't think will happen until a lot closer to the end of the series. 

[BlackberryJam]

If this were a soap, and it kind of is, I'd expect Ramsay to give Walda the classic staircarriage. If you've not heard of the term, a miscarriage from falling (or being pushed down) the stairs. Pregnant women in TV shows should always avoid the stairs.

[Winnief]

Now as you may know, I've defended a LOT of the show's changes to the book material in the past because of the limits of time/money they have and in many ways I think they've surpassed the book material, but the ending to tonight's episode....

 

God.  Damn.  I don't know much longer I'll be able to stand to watch.  I kept hoping that something would happen to postpone the wedding there like maybe they'd decide to hold off until after dealing with Stannis or something, but no.  D&D actually went there.  What the hell is up with them and their rape/abuse of women fetish?!?  Jesus they're even worse than Martin himself.  Do they realize how alienating this is to viewers?!?  I mean I get they like to 'test the boundaries,' and shock people but seriously do they really think this is actually *good* for the series in the long run?!? 

 

Sorry, I shouldn't rant, but...Damn.  I mean I'll probably keep watching, for the end of the season if only to see Sansa 'rescued,' but why DID THEY DO IT?!??

[benteen]

I don't blame you for being upset.  In fairness to D and D, the scene depicted did happen in GRRM's A Dance with Dragons and the scene was portrayed less graphically here.  But D and D were the ones who decided to put Sansa in that scene instead of Jeyne Poole and they are the ones who decided to make her a bigger victim than ever.  They are also the ones who decided to have Dany, Cersei and Sansa raped at one point or another on the show.

Edited May 18, 2015 by benteen

[Avaleigh]

 What the hell is up with them and their rape/abuse of women fetish?!?  Jesus they're even worse than Martin himself.  

I honestly think GRRM is worse.

[Advance35]

Was Dany's consummation willing in the book, I don't recall.    And I can't throw a stone at D&D until we see the rest of Sansa's storyline play out in the books.   GRRM could be planning to give Sansa a horrible wedding night at some point.   If he wrote Sansa's story and she was never brutalized in this way I'd think D&D are jerks but that fact is we don't know.   GRRM can't be bothered to get his books out in a timely fashion so here we are.    I assume this will happen in the books.    I don't get the mob mentality about the whole thing.   The Sept scene of last season I get but Sansa's storyline unfolding, if this is what GRRM has planned it's a matter of not liking the direction of her character and that has to be laid at the feet of the source material.   Shakes head.   If D&D were the monsters people like to call them they never would have let the horrible Lolly's character slip through their fingers.

 

ST has greatly improved as an actress and I don't think Sansa standing up to Myranda is automatically undone because of what happened between her and Ramsay.   She stood up to Myranda and put her in her place, then met a bigger monster later on and didn't come out victorious in their first round.     I can't wait to see where her storyline is going.

[Avaleigh]

Was Dany's consummation willing in the book, I don't recall. 

Dany says "yes" on their wedding night and then it's rape for weeks on end, maybe even months I can't recall. During the wedding ceremony Dany is frequently wishing that she didn't have to do it and is clearly dreading the consummation that will happen later. She keeps thinking that she just wants to go home but Viserys makes it clear that if she doesn't make Drogo happy that Dany will "wake the dragon" in Viserys.  

[SeanC]

 I can't wait to see where her storyline is going.

Her storyline is going toward "running away", just like Jeyne Poole's was.  You can see her looking teary-eyed and scared in both of her scenes in the promo for next week.

 

This is not GRRM's story.  That's perfectly clear (and he's said at one point that he wasn't interested in writing POV rape; which doesn't quite jibe with Dany's story in AGOT, but that's another matter).

[benteen]

After tonight, I'm convinced Jon will never received The Pink Letter.  Ramsay now has enough enemies likely to kill him.  Theon was always a possibility of course but Brienne and Sansa are now strong candidates for that too.

 

Where does Jon's storyline go from here?

[Hecate7]

I don't blame you for being upset.  In fairness to D and D, the scene depicted did happen in GRRM's A Dance with Dragons and the scene was portrayed less graphically here.  But D and D were the ones who decided to put Sansa in that scene instead of Jeyne Poole and they are the ones who decided to make her a bigger victim than ever.  They are also the ones who decided to have Dany, Cersei and Sansa raped at one point or another on the show.

 

 

The characters in the books would have done this exact same thing with Arya if they had her. They don't. So they used Jeyne and lied and said she was Arya. But if you have Sansa, you don't need Arya. You don't need a fake Stark, if you have a real one. There was no need for Jeyne Poole because Sansa is right here. Littlefinger in the books is using Jeyne Poole because this whole situation started playing out when he didn't have Sansa yet. But the timing worked out differently on the show, and so why not use Sansa?

[Maximum Taco]

After tonight, I'm convinced Jon will never received The Pink Letter.  Ramsay now has enough enemies likely to kill him.  Theon was always a possibility of course but Brienne and Sansa are now strong candidates for that too.

 

Where does Jon's storyline go from here?

 

Seems like it's pretty simple.

 

Comes back from Hardhome with even more wildlings, decides to let them though the wall and then everyone stabs him.

 

All they are writing out is Jon's intent to march south. The wildlings are the more hot button issue for the Brothers anyway.

Edited May 18, 2015 by Maximum Taco

[benteen]

I meant where does Jon's storyline lead after his betrayal?  Ramsay clearly isn't part of the equation.

[yellowfred]

so why not use Sansa?

 

I'm sure there are a ton, but the four big ones (to me) are:

 

1. It doesn't make sense for the Boltons to want to piss off the Lannisters by taking in a wanted fugitive who's accused of murdering the King, especially when the only thing making them Wardens of the North is the fact that the Lannisters say they are and there aren't any Starks in a position to dispute their claim. 

 

2.  It doesn't make sense for Littlefinger to give Sansa over to people he doesn't know very much about and doesn't trust, especially given how much she knows about him (i.e., his role in Joffrey's murder).

 

3.  It doesn't make sense for Sansa, as someone who actually gets a say in this plan, to go along with it.

 

4.  It's not actually legal (or whatever the Westerosi version of that is) for her to marry Ramsey when she's still married to Tyrion.

[Hecate7]

1. As Roose explained, the Lannisters are very far away and won't send any armies to support the Bolton claim. They gave them the North and washed their hands. I do think they should have pretended Sansa was Arya--it would have kept Cersei off the scent.

 

2. Littlefinger has convinced Sansa that she is equally culpable in Joffrey's murder. It's been pinned on Tyrion and she's most likely to leave it at that.

 

3. Littlefinger convinced Sansa she could avenge her family by either killing the Boltons or "making him hers."

 

4. As Littlefinger explained to Roose, she's no man's wife. By law, She is single because Tyrion never consummated the wedding. No need to even annul it, apparently.

[Maximum Taco]

I'm sure there are a ton, but the four big ones (to me) are:

 

1. It doesn't make sense for the Boltons to want to piss off the Lannisters by taking in a wanted fugitive who's accused of murdering the King, especially when the only thing making them Wardens of the North is the fact that the Lannisters say they are and there aren't any Starks in a position to dispute their claim. 

 

2.  It doesn't make sense for Littlefinger to give Sansa over to people he doesn't know very much about and doesn't trust, especially given how much she knows about him (i.e., his role in Joffrey's murder).

 

3.  It doesn't make sense for Sansa, as someone who actually gets a say in this plan, to go along with it.

 

4.  It's not actually legal (or whatever the Westerosi version of that is) for her to marry Ramsey when she's still married to Tyrion.

 

1) Eh. Maybe. But the Boltons also know winter is coming. If they can hold the North via a Stark marriage, they can easily defend it against the Lannisters in winter. In fact it's probably more important to shore up against angry Northmen who might try and avenge Ned and Robb then worry about the Lannisters down in King's Landing.

 

2) Who the fuck knows what Littlefinger is planning? After the last episode I think he might be fine with everyone there including Sansa dying, and him just swooping in and becoming Warden of the North and East.

 

3) Sure it does, she trusts Littlefinger, kinda. And he's already laid out the plan. Endure until Stannis comes. After the wedding night though she'll probably decide she can't endure and make her break for freedom.

 

4) They already explained away #4. Littlefinger already introduced the fact that marriages that are not consummated are not legal. Another change from the books apparently.

Edited May 18, 2015 by Maximum Taco

[Hecate7]

Hecate7 are you saying Tyrion consists of two twins one from Tywin and one from Aerys? Does that even exist in real life? Like the twins from different father's?

 

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. Not sure which of Tyrion's eyes is the "real" one--whether our Tyrion is the Lannister twin and the Targ twin got absorbed, leaving only the white hair and "black" eye, or if perhaps all that's ever been Lannister in Tyrion was his one green eye.

 

It happens all the time, btw, that fraternal twins can have different fathers. For a very common example of how that works, look at a litter of kittens. If the cat has 6 eggs in her, and mates with 6 toms, it's very common for her to pop out kittens who are all half siblings--each is hers, but each has a different father. So in one litter from a little gray short-haired female, might be a siamese, a black persian, a ginger tabby, a manx, and a tortoiseshell. In humans it's the same principle. Two eggs sitting there, might be fertilized by the same father, or two different fathers, depending.

 

It is also shockingly common for people (and animals) to absorb their twins in the womb and be chimeras, without anyone knowing a thing about it unless blood tests reveal the second blood type or DNA of the absorbed twin alive and well in the surviving one.

 

Tyrion's dream of two heads shows him killing Tywin and Jaime. He's going to destroy Tywin's line--Jaime, Cersei, and their remaining kids, and what's left of the Lannister in himself. The scary truth he's working out in that dream, is that he already killed his own Lannister twin, just like Maelys the Monstrous. Nobody ever saw his "black" eye as purple, because nobody expected it to be purple--except possibly Tywin. And nobody ever looked into it that long or that deeply--doubtless the green one is more attractive, and is the eye all the hookers looked into. But all along, Tyrion was as Targaryen as he was Lannister, and he was as much a bastard son of Aerys, as he was the legitimate heir of Tywin. Tywin probably knew it, but didn't want to bring disgrace on Joanna. I'm sure it wasn't her fault.

Edited May 18, 2015 by Hecate7

[Cheshrkat]

If this season doesn't end with someone (I don't care who - Stannis, Brienne, Theon or Sansa herself, or even Myranda) stabbing Ramsay Bolton repeated with the pointy end of something sharp, it's going to become hard for me to keep watching.  Knowing that we will see Jon betrayed, there has to be some sort of win for a Stark loving viewer.

[Danny Franks]

If this season doesn't end with someone (I don't care who - Stannis, Brienne, Theon or Sansa herself, or even Myranda) stabbing Ramsay Bolton repeated with the pointy end of something sharp, it's going to become hard for me to keep watching.  Knowing that we will see Jon betrayed, there has to be some sort of win for a Stark loving viewer.

 

It won't. They know they're on to a winner with a character who can do anything they want, to shock the audience. They'll keep him around for as long as they can.

[Pete Martell]

2) Who the fuck knows what Littlefinger is planning? After the last episode I think he might be fine with everyone there including Sansa dying, and him just swooping in and becoming Warden of the North and East.

 

Per Bryan Cogman, Littlefinger had no idea they were as dangerous as they are.

 

The writer producer also confirmed that, for those suspecting Littlefinger might have known about Ramsay’s sadism, that Baelish was definitely ignorant of the situation. “The difference between the Ramsay Snow of the books and the show is the Ramsay of the show is not a famous psycho,” he said. “He’s not known everywhere as a psycho. So Littlefinger doesn’t have the intelligence on him. He knows they’re scary and creepy and not to be folly trusted and it’s part of a larger plan.”

 

http://www.ew.com/article/2015/05/17/game-thrones-sansa-ramsay-interview

 

This, along with his attempts to sell this as Sansa knowing what she was in for, remind me again of how much the endless ambiguity and apathetic misery of so much of the show has blurred most of the momentum for the stories and central characters. At this point I don't even really know what I'm supposed to want for Sansa. Should we want her to become Queen of the North when the North amounts to the Boltons + some frightened bit players Brienne meets? Am I supposed to hope Littlefinger wins out, since we got a season of him "teaching" her about how to survive and the show has taken pains to make sure we know he is not as "bad" as the Boltons? Am I even supposed to see the Boltons as being that bad, given that Cogman made sure we knew that Sansa knew what she was getting into? Given that Sansa is, after a few episodes that feigned character growth for her (even as this mostly amounted to her getting droned at by Any Accent Baelish while wearing Goth Talk fashions), again being victimized, are they saying she's always just going to be a victim, and we should turn our attention to who will save her? Or is she not a victim, and her being raped is actually their way of showing us her strength, because the only way to prove you're a strong woman if you're not full of BAMF sword-fighting moves is to get raped? (something that, for all their flaws, Walking Dead's creative team managed to mercifully avoid translating to screen)

 

I can't help feeling like they just decided there was no story for Sansa, and they knew a lot of fans hated her, so if they dumped her into the middle of the Bolton/North story, which is full of characters who also aren't fan favorites (aside from Brienne), and had her get roughed up and sexually assaulted, then viewers would suddenly like her. As a bonus for them, complex materials about alliances and control of the North and a broken post-Red Wedding landscape could just turn into a suffering woman waiting for salvation, and they could tie in Theon's story by possibly having him involved in "saving" Sansa, thus tying up how he wronged the Starks. Add in that Brienne could get in some "bad-ass" sword kills on finale night, and maybe have a swordfight with Ramsay, and they could turn the whole struggle of a plotline into a damsel-in-distress-blood-and-steel saga.

 

It could be an exciting finale, but for an entire season I think it's been a huge slog that has robbed Sansa of most of voice she had even in the first 4 seasons, and reduces her to somehow being taught her place after what could be interpreted as a girl's fantasy of believing that a new hair color or clothes would ever make her more than a constant victim waiting for anyone to set her free.

Edited May 18, 2015 by Pete Martell

[Advance35]

Well I for one have really enjoyed this season and I like the hints I think are being given.   I stand by the fact that D&D are going to make all of these characters end up the same place as GRRM, and I think they are hitting all of the MAJOR and NOTEWORTHY story beats that relate to the endgame.   I think Sansa will be parting with her maiden head before all this is over and it won't be in a swoon worthy romantic sense.

 

I also note and find it interesting and telling that in the show, Cersei Lannister now knows where Sansa Stark is.   In the book Sansa is still a fugitive that could be ANYWHERE.   Me thinks that Cersei and Sansa are likely to meet again now, under what circumstances I can't imagine but maybe Sansa really is the young more beautiful Queen in Cersei's prophecy.

 

LF simultaneously stabbed in the back Roose, Ramsay, Cersei and Sansa.  The man is an artist, of a sort.

[Winnief]

I also note and find it interesting and telling that in the show, Cersei Lannister now knows where Sansa Stark is.   In the book Sansa is still a fugitive that could be ANYWHERE.   Me thinks that Cersei and Sansa are likely to meet again now, under what circumstances I can't imagine but maybe Sansa really is the young more beautiful Queen in Cersei's prophecy.

 

 

I agree.  Poor Margaery is likely doomed and even if she does survive, she' not the YMBQ because Cersei is wrong about everything.  Dany might seem logical but there's no personal element there with Cersei, and the show is setting up hints that she's not right to rule either, with Tyrion's great speech to Jorah about how Dany's unfamiliar with Westeros and the Targaryen madness.  But Sansa...it doesn't get more personal than that, the irony factor alone would make it worth it, and it would be a vindication of sorts for Ned-he sacrificed his honor for his daughter in what was Cersei's greatest moment of triumph but if that same daughter casts Cersei down to become Queen-well who really won in the long term after all?

 

Whatever Sansa's eventual fate, I agree another in person confrontation between her and Cersei is inevitable. 

 

And LF must be feeling pretty smug right now, but I have a feeling that when he does go up North with the knights of the Vale it's going to turn out very, VERY badly for him thanks to Sansa.

[ElizaD]

I'm starting to feel that the Sand Snakes are the show's first major casting screwup. There was speculation that they were kept over Arianne because they have stuff to do in KL, but right now it's ridiculous to think of these characters confronting Cersei, Olenna or the High Sparrow and looking even remotely formidable. At least the absolute mess of Sansa's show storyline has Sophie and Alfie's acting. Dorne wasn't special in the books, but I'm still surprised by how badly it's flopping. It hasn't even had the campy fun moments of season 2 Dany's legendary Where Are My Dragons and Qarth.

 

If this season doesn't end with someone (I don't care who - Stannis, Brienne, Theon or Sansa herself, or even Myranda) stabbing Ramsay Bolton repeated with the pointy end of something sharp, it's going to become hard for me to keep watching.  Knowing that we will see Jon betrayed, there has to be some sort of win for a Stark loving viewer.

 

By cutting Manderly and the other pro-Stark lords and potentially setting up a situation where Sansa is raped and Stannis killed by the Boltons, the show has managed to make the Northern plot even more miserable than in ADWD where Roose's control over the events was starting to slip. I'd rather see a Bolton dead this season than spend one more year unspoiled in the futile wait for TWOW.

[SeanC]

If you were wondering what D&D would say about Sansa's rape in the BTS video, the answer is

.

[Danny Franks]

By cutting Manderly and the other pro-Stark lords and potentially setting up a situation where Sansa is raped and Stannis killed by the Boltons, the show has managed to make the Northern plot even more miserable than in ADWD where Roose's control over the events was starting to slip. I'd rather see a Bolton dead this season than spend one more year unspoiled in the futile wait for TWOW.

 

There is no Northern plot. All those people who still felt loyalty to the Starks and wanted revenge on the Boltons? Basically now just Sansa, who is as powerless as ever, and who was put up to this by Littlefinger. Talk about taking a storyline and gutting every single tiny piece of goodness out of it. It all feels absolutely pointless.

 

I almost wish they'd put the fucking Greyjoys into the show now, so I could feel even more negative about it than I do.

[blixie]

 

All those people who still felt loyalty to the Starks and wanted revenge on the Boltons?

 

They have shown the small folk have her back, and I can appreciate a proletariat narrative, but l loved Manderlay and Doran being secret plotting badasses is one of the FEW joys in AffC/ADWD.

 

 

almost wish they'd put the fucking Greyjoys into the show

 

YOU SHUT YOUR MOUTH. Ramsay is at least attached to Roose whom I enjoy despite his awfulness. The Greyjoys are like three Ramsay's and no Roose, not even for more Asha. 

[SeanC]

I was not previously one of the people who were very critical of the Dorne plot, but the Dornish scenes in this episode sucked, culminating in that hilariously terrible fight scene.

Edited May 18, 2015 by SeanC

[Shanna]

There is no Northern plot. All those people who still felt loyalty to the Starks and wanted revenge on the Boltons? Basically now just Sansa, who is as powerless as ever, and who was put up to this by Littlefinger. Talk about taking a storyline and gutting every single tiny piece of goodness out of it. It all feels absolutely pointless.

I almost wish they'd put the fucking Greyjoys into the show now, so I could feel even more negative about it than I do.

I wouldn't go that far (re greyjoys) but they basically cut everything worthwhile about this plot in favor of a raped stark. I'm not sure how much of this shit I can watch..

[Avaleigh]

Is Cersei going to have a birthmark too? 

 

It definitely seems like Olenna is going to make a deal with the High Septon, I just can't decide if Loras is going to have to suffer a Walk as well. 

 

How did Lancel get out of not having to do a Walk? Olyvar? Even when Cersei confessed she was still made to do it so how is it that these guys got out of it? When people freely "confess" like Kettleblack they end up getting tortured and they still aren't off of the hook so how is it that Lancel and Olyvar haven't had to pay any public consequences? With Lancel, I'll assume that it's because he confessed before the FM was formed again so he gets a pass but it doesn't really explain whatever is happening with Olyvar. 

 

ETA:

 

Regarding the speculation that Cersei had the snake and necklace sent to herself in order to get Jaime out of her hair--how would she know that Jaime would volunteer? How would she know that he'd only bring one guy with him? It seemed like it was all Jaime's idea. Maybe she wants him to think that but it's still counting on him doing an awful lot that she wouldn't have been able to guarantee.  

Edited May 18, 2015 by Avaleigh

[Cheshrkat]

There is no Northern plot. All those people who still felt loyalty to the Starks and wanted revenge on the Boltons? Basically now just Sansa, who is as powerless as ever, and who was put up to this by Littlefinger. Talk about taking a storyline and gutting every single tiny piece of goodness out of it. It all feels absolutely pointless.

 

I almost wish they'd put the fucking Greyjoys into the show now, so I could feel even more negative about it than I do.

 

I'm still desperately hoping that Stannis prevails over the Boltons - I don't feel his storyline is over, and I think the Boltons are Grade B villains - Seasons 6 and 7 need to be concerned with the Grade A villains, including Littlefinger and the White Walkers.  So now I'm speculating that in addition to taking Jeyne's place, Sansa will take over for Lord Manderly as well - assuming she and Theon escape Winterfell, I feel as though Theon will have to tell her that her younger brothers are still alive.  When she meets up with Stannis, I think she promises him the Northern support on the condition that he finds Bran and/or Rickon and returns them to her (the equivalent of Wyman's "bring me my liege lord" compromise).  Davos can then seek out Osha and Rickon next season.

 

I just don't see how the show (or the book, really) has the Boltons triumph over Stannis.  Someone needs to take the Boltons out and clear the way for the ending which focuses on the major threats, and the Boltons are disgustingly minor league.  And I would cheer loudly if they were flayed.

Edited May 18, 2015 by Cheshrkat

[ChromaKelly]

By cutting Manderly and the other pro-Stark lords and potentially setting up a situation where Sansa is raped and Stannis killed by the Boltons, the show has managed to make the Northern plot even more miserable than in ADWD where Roose's control over the events was starting to slip. I'd rather see a Bolton dead this season than spend one more year unspoiled in the futile wait for TWOW.

Agree. They have cut a lot of the pro-Stark minor characters and the sense of love and loyalty that the Northern families have for the Starks. Little touches like The Liddle that Bran and co encounter, the Reeds' pledge, Mormont women at the RW, Greatjon (could have subbed in Smalljon), Manderlys, Alys Karstark, all those moments that made me as a reader more connected to the Starks. I saw exactly why the North was so loyal to them.

Edited May 18, 2015 by ChromaKelly

[Avaleigh]

I just don't see how the show (or the book, really) has the Boltons triumph over Stannis.  Someone needs to take the Boltons out and clear the way for the ending which focuses on the major threats, and the Boltons are disgustingly minor league.  And I would cheer loudly if they were flayed.

I think Stannis is on the way out. It's the conversation with Shireen that convinces me. That coupled with Mel likely transferring her loyalty over to Jon, I feel like that would be more likely to happen with Stannis's death. I also only see Davos separating from Stannis if Stannis were no longer around and I feel like Davos still has a role to play in everything. 

 

At the moment my thought is that the Boltons are indeed defeated but that Stannis still dies in the process. Maybe Stannis will linger for a bit but ultimately die of his wounds in Winterfell. I think that Davos will survive and I can see Sansa and/or Stannis asking him to help find Rickon. Maybe Brienne will get the task of finding Bran. (I'm trying to think of a reason for her to go further North.) 

[Winnief]

I think Stannis is on the way out. It's the conversation with Shireen that convinces me. That coupled with Mel likely transferring her loyalty over to Jon, I feel like that would be more likely to happen with Stannis's death. I also only see Davos separating from Stannis if Stannis were no longer around and I feel like Davos still has a role to play in everything.

 

At the moment my thought is that the Boltons are indeed defeated but that Stannis still dies in the process. Maybe Stannis will linger for a bit but ultimately die of his wounds in Winterfell.

 

Agreed.  In fact I have the disturbing notion that Mel might try to offer up Shireen to the Lord of Light in an attempt to save Stannis-which would be the last thing he'd ever want, but that wouldn't stop her.

 

Also I noticed in next week's promo Ser Allister telling Sam, that with Jon gone he's got no more friends to protect him, so it looks like Sam and Gilly are gonna be leaving the Wall pretty soon.