Television Vs. Book: Why'd They Make [Spoiler] Such A [Spoiler]?

[elzin]

Grayscale and the Pale Mare and Ghost Grass just seem like overkill in a land where nearly everything else is trying to kill you, but I wonder if they're not somehow all linked with the Others or can be cured by dragonfire/magic in some way.  Maybe if you have grayscale or the Pale Mare you can't be wight-ed.  Maybe Ghost Grass poisons dragons too.  There seems to be too much mentioning of those three, too much foreshadowing, too much magical connection for them to just be Shit That Happens in Planetos That's Bad, But Not As Bad As The Others.

[nksarmi]

For the record, I never bought A+J=T, and felt the show subtly tried to discourage that viewpoint, by giving Tyrion the same blond locks of Jaime and Cersei to emphasize they were siblings.  To put it bluntly, that particular secret would have just blown up the entire Tyrion/Tywin dynamic.  The whole point of their relationship was that Tyrion was not only Tywin's child, but the only one of his children to inherit his political smarts...but that Tywin was incapable of seeing that because of his prejudice against his son's disability-and that this led inevitably to a life and death battle between the two with Tyrion becoming a cursed kinslayer.  Having Tyrion be Aerys's bastard, just ruins the whole thing.  Besides we already have one secret Targaryen heir out there-two is just overkill. 

I agree and I think the show - perhaps even GRRM - really wanted to show that Tyrion was the son and heir worthy of Tywin's dynasty if he could have just overlooked his son's physical limitation.  Tyrion proved he had the mind, strategic instinct, and wit to keep the Lannister name great, but Tywin put all his eggs in the Jamie/Cersei basket.

[nksarmi]

I didn't pay much attention to grayscale in the books, but it getting mentioned on the show when so much has been cut has really made me wonder. It doesn't seem like the kind of thing the showrunners would love to include. If Tyrion dies of grayscale, maybe they felt they had to be faithful to the books even if it's not the most upbeat or glorious ending for their favorite. But dying of disease seems so low-key for someone as major as Tyrion. Maybe it becomes a widespread plague instead, but even then, it feels a little pointless - shouldn't winter and the epic return of the Others be enough to wreck Westeros? If that is done by a plague instead, the Others keep on being irrelevant.

I would find it far more likely that the inclusion of grey scale will play into the power of the lord of light and/or the power of fire and magic of dragons.  We have twice been told that Stannis brought in every healer to stop the disease, but we don't know what god that healer prescribed to or what exactly was the magic that stopped the disease.  Between that and Mel saying that those scars mean nothing to the lord of light make me believe that it was a priest/priestess of that religion that saved her which would go a LONG way to explain why Stannis even remotely tolerates this religion when he otherwise seems to have little use for any faith.

 

If a character like Jorah or even Tyrion gets grey scale but is healed by a red priest/priestess, that would go a long way to Dany aligning herself with that faith which could also end up mattering in the North when the fight against the whitewalkers happens.

[Avaleigh]

I wish the show would find a way to include them being cousins because I think that would get a huge reaction from viewers and a lot of hilarious jokes.

As much fun as they've had with Lancel I agree that it would be great if this could be revealed. I don't think they've ever said Joanna's name on the show. Hopefully one of the Lannister sibs still has time to mention it. 

[Rockstar99435]

As much as I don't want to see Loras get tortured for being gay, I like that the Sparrows are going after men as much as women. In the book, the High Sparrow was so gross and misogynistic that it was just more shit and terror for the women of Westeros. I didn't feel bad for Cersei and her walk of shame but for all the other women who are now in danger. If the High Sparrow and his army can attack the Queen with impunity then what hope do the regular women have? The men of Westeros don't do anything to protect women now, let alone if the church started torturing them. But if the High Sparrow is attacking both men and women, then it's only a matter of time before the men will start to defend themselves against the church and overthrow the sparrows.

[Avaleigh]

I never bought the Tyrion Targaryen theory.

 

The books go out of their way to emphasize that Tyrion is the most like Tywin out of the three Lannisters. And it's not like Jon where there are several clues to his "true identity." All there is are little throwaway lines about Aerys coveted Joanna.

 

Tyrion's angst at never being accepted by his family and also being the most like his father, especially the parts his father values in himself and also still being tied to their fortunes and legacy is part of what makes his character sympathetic. It's not as interesting if he's not a Lannister IMO.

 

Also I like the love story between Tywin and Joanna, since that is one of the few things that humanizes Tywin. Her being raped and concealing that from Tywin, or worse yet willingly sleeping with Aerys taints that horribly.

I disagree with this. I feel like the hints have been scattered since the first book and TWOIAF kind of compounded all of that on top of one of the writers saying that fans have been flamed for AJT while Jaime/Cersei as possible Targaryens has finally been put to bed. Right off the bat in the first book Tyrion's parentage is called into question. In the first book we also get stuff about physical appearance, dragons, the special connection with Jon, the line about his shadow standing as tall as a king's, etc. There are clues dropped in each book where Tyrion has a POV. 

 

There are more than the throwaway lines about Joanna. At the very least I feel like it should give people pause that GRRM went out of his way to make sure that the information that Joanna just happened to be at King's Landing when Tyrion was conceived was included into the world book when it was previously going to be left out. It's not like Joanna went there frequently after her marriage. 

 

This isn't getting into any of the dragonrider theories or whether or not Targaryen blood is required in order to be a dragonrider. I definitely think it's significant that Jon, Dany, and Tyrion's mothers all died giving birth to them. I also think that the names Dany chose for the dragons makes sense in terms of what their riders will be to her. Jon will get Rhaegal since he's Rhaegar's son and half brother Tyrion gets the dragon that was named after her brother.  

 

Tyrion is still a Lannister through his mother. He's still their blood. Also, I think that Tyrion is like Tywin because Tywin raised him and because Tyrion was the one who craved Tywin's approval most. I also like the irony in Tyrion, the non biological child, being the one most like Tywin. I'm not sure that I care for the idea that Tyrion is like Tywin primarily because of their blood. 

 

I agree that Tywin's love of Joanna is one of the few things that humanizes him. I don't think Joanna willingly slept with Aerys. When I was still totally sold on the theory my thoughts were essentially along the lines of Joanna being raped by Aerys and being unsure whether or not he was responsible for the subsequent pregnancy. I think Tywin being uncertain as to whether or not Tyrion is his is a key part of the theory. I also think it's an awesome kind of psychological torture to inflict on the character of Tywin because it sucks for him either way. There is no best case scenario for him here. He'd love the knowledge that he isn't responsible for fathering a monstrous "creature" but then that means accepting that his wife was dishonored by his king and one time friend. If Tyrion is his then the gods saw fit to curse him and he was responsible for fathering the child that killed his wife. And he probably thinks about all of this stuff every time he sees Tyrion. It's kind of a tailor made punishment for somebody as proud as Tywin. 

 

I think the theory makes multiple relationships more complex rather than it being the other way around. 

 

More than anything I disagree that the theory somehow cheapens the relationship between Tywin and Tyrion. For some reason I feel like the father/son bond between Ned and Jon is respected more in that people will still see Ned as Jon's father even after the Rhaegar reveal because Ned is the one who raised Jon. With Tyrion and Tywin though it's like there's this idea that their relationship will suddenly become one dimensional and meaningless if Aerys turns out to be the bio dad and I've never really understood this. 

[Holmbo]

Personally I prefer the theory which makes the most of a fool out of Tywin which is the J+A=C+J. There's lots of hints towards this in the books too though I'll trust those who states it's disproved by the world book.

I think the reason people are ok with Ned and Jon but not Tyrion and Tywin is because the whole drama between them is Tywin not accepting Tyrion as his son. If turns out Tyrion was actually not his son one could interpret him as being justified because we would never know for sure how much he knew. I'd see it as Tywin not knowing but some people might think he knew all along.

[Winnief]

Personally I prefer the theory which makes the most of a fool out of Tywin which is the J+A=C+J.

 

LOL!  It certainly might explain the Twincest, and the incredible narcissism and madness shown by Cersei and her eldest spawn...

 

 

I think the reason people are ok with Ned and Jon but not Tyrion and Tywin is because the whole drama between them is Tywin not accepting Tyrion as his son. If turns out Tyrion was actually not his son one could interpret him as being justified because we would never know for sure how much he knew. I'd see it as Tywin not knowing but some people might think he knew all along.

 

Precisely.  Possibly my favorite bit from AFFC was when Aunt Genna tells Jaime, "But Tyrion is Twyin's son not you.  I told him once and he wouldn't speak to me for half a year."  Basically, Tywin refused to see how much of him there was in his dwarf child-and ignored the fact that Golden Boy Jaime has as much ambition as a leg of lamb.  Also for what it's worth, I think he was genuinely unaware of how unfit Cersei was as a mother and political actor until ASOS-and by then the damage had already been done. 

 

For what it's worth, I *do* believe that Tyrion is the third dragon rider on Visenya...(with an outside hope that it might just be Shireen with her Targaryen ancestry if she could somehow survive events at the Wall,) but if it is Tyrion it won't be because of Targ blood but from magical assistance from the likes of Moqorro or more likely Bran. 

[jjjmoss]

But if the High Sparrow is attacking both men and women, then it's only a matter of time before the men will start to defend themselves against the church and overthrow the sparrows.

 

Well, many assholes don't consider gays to be real men, so perhaps this crap society is in that boat so the men wouldn't care.

[FurryFury]

LOL!  It certainly might explain the Twincest, and the incredible narcissism and madness shown by Cersei and her eldest spawn...

 

Yes, Aerys being a possible father of Jaime and Cersei has been definitively disproven. Which is a shame, because I think I'd take it them over Tyrion, dragon dreams be damned. I mean, the irony would be terrific if after all the fighting for the Iron Throne, it turned out that Cersei's children were the "rightful" heirs all along. I'd be laughing like mad. And also, knowing all that we know about Targaryen kings of old, Joffrey sure does seem related to them.

Oh well, chalk it up to "what could have been".

[Rockstar99435]

Well, many assholes don't consider gays to be real men, so perhaps this crap society is in that boat so the men wouldn't care.

 

True. But the original High Septon was caught with girls before his walk of shame so I figured the sparrows are going for anyone who has sex outside of marriage. And I can see a lot men thinking that's while it's okay to go after women and gay men, it's not okay to go after straight men. 

Edited May 5, 2015 by Rockstar99435

[Avaleigh]

LOL!  It certainly might explain the Twincest, and the incredible narcissism and madness shown by Cersei and her eldest spawn...

 

Precisely.  Possibly my favorite bit from AFFC was when Aunt Genna tells Jaime, "But Tyrion is Twyin's son not you.  I told him once and he wouldn't speak to me for half a year."  Basically, Tywin refused to see how much of him there was in his dwarf child-and ignored the fact that Golden Boy Jaime has as much ambition as a leg of lamb.  Also for what it's worth, I think he was genuinely unaware of how unfit Cersei was as a mother and political actor until ASOS-and by then the damage had already been done. 

 

For what it's worth, I *do* believe that Tyrion is the third dragon rider on Visenya...(with an outside hope that it might just be Shireen with her Targaryen ancestry if she could somehow survive events at the Wall,) but if it is Tyrion it won't be because of Targ blood but from magical assistance from the likes of Moqorro or more likely Bran. 

I don't think Tyrion being the bastard of Aerys invalidates Genna's comment. Tyrion is still the son who is most like Tywin even though he isn't Tywin's biological son. I disagree that the blood is what makes Tyrion like Tywin. 

 

As for Targaryen/Valyrian blood being necessary to become a dragon rider, while I think there's plenty of set up in the books, I think that this was all but confirmed in TWOIAF. Nettles is the best that people can come up with when they want to point to a dragonrider who didn't necessarily have Targaryen blood but there's little reason to think that she wasn't an example of a dragonseed. Why place all of the emphasis on the dragonseeds in TpatQ if it isn't something that's going to come up? I feel like all of the stuff about the Valyrians/Targaryens being the blood of the dragon is key to why they were able to bond to dragons in ways that other groups simply were not. It also explains the incest among the dragon riding families in Old Valyria.

 

That being said my hope is that Bran does assist Tyrion with riding Viserion in some way likely via warging. I agree that Moqorro could be of assistance and think that it wouldn't be a bit surprising if Tyrion's blood is the magic ticket wrt to the horn and that this could cause him to wondering why the horn works for him but didn't for Victarion. Maybe it'll cause Tyrion to wonder about any rumors that he might have been dismissive of in the past. If Dany sees that Tyrion is able to tame Viserion maybe she'll connect the dots to what Barristan told her.

 

Re Rhaegal

Even though I feel confident that he's meant for Jon I can't imagine what would bring Rhaegal that far north initially without a rider or without being captured and it makes me wonder if this is where Bran could come in. If he finds out about Jon then maybe bringing Jon the ultimate weapon will be something Bran does if he indeed ends up being capable of warging a dragon. 

 

I would have to think that Bran wouldn't be able to warg all three dragons so I prefer the idea of him warging Rhaegal because he and Jon were once so close. It'd be a way for them to go into battle together and I feel like that could be amazing if done the right way. Imagine too the heartbreak factor of Jon possibly never knowing that Bran is helping him. 

[nksarmi]

Am I the only one who wants Ayra to be a dragon rider?  I know she isn't a Targ, but she is a warg.  And as far as I can recall, two characters dreamed of being dragon riders in the books - Ayra and Tyrion.  Plus, the original three dragon riders were a man and two women.  I believe that Jon has a very important role to play, and while it would be cool if he rode the dragon named after his real father - I still want Ayra on that dragon with Jon leading the battle with Ghost at his side.

[Hecate7]

Well, many assholes don't consider gays to be real men, so perhaps this crap society is in that boat so the men wouldn't care.

 

This. Usually societies that persecute gays are very misogynistic, too.

[Funzlerks]

I would like it if the dragons dumped Danerys into the Narrow Sea then just flew south. I still have a big problem with the huge easy button she has. Problem? Dragons.

Does she even care about what Westeros is like beyond stories of her own family or how easily she can conquer it?

[GreyBunny]

I think the book dragon riders will end up being Dany (Drogon), Tyrion (Rhaegal), and Brown Ben Plumm (he has Targ blood and one of the dragons, Viserion, took a shine to him).  Then something happens to Ben and Jon takes over by skinchanging into Viserion (which makes sense to me because V's the white dragon and would match Ghost and Jon's whole snow theme).  

 

Since GRRM said there is going to be a second Dance and Plumm is kinda shifty, I wouldn't be surprised if he defected with his dragon over to fAegon's side, Ben gets snuffed and then Jon takes over, bringing the dragon back to Dany's side.

 

For the show it appears fAegon got cut and I'm going to guess the second Dance got cut as well.  They'll probably skip over Plumm and give the dragon right to Jon.

Edited May 6, 2015 by GreyBunny

[Avaleigh]

I would like it if the dragons dumped Danerys into the Narrow Sea then just flew south. I still have a big problem with the huge easy button she has. Problem? Dragons.

Does she even care about what Westeros is like beyond stories of her own family or how easily she can conquer it?

I don't see Dany as having it easy with her dragons. I think it would be different if they were under her control but that isn't the case. Even now that she's become a dragon rider she doesn't have control over where Drogon chooses to take her. She's figured out how to make him veer right or left but she still only has minimal control so I don't think she's yet in a position where life is easy because she happens to have a dragon. I don't think the dragons have ever really made life easy for her. To me it very much seems like it's more dragons, more problems even when the person is the mother of said dragons. Plus, as far as it is on the show it seems that both Rhaegal and Viserion have turned on her so they aren't going to be solving any problems for her any time soon. 

 

I definitely think that Dany has an interest in Westeros apart from the history of her family. The book Dany seems to anyway. I've been rereading the first book and one of the things that jumped out at me during Dany's wedding to Drogo was how happy she was to get these books about the seven kingdoms as a wedding present from Jorah. Apart from the gift of her Silver it was the only present that inspired a genuinely heartfelt reaction from her IIRC. It's less clear with show Dany but she strikes me as somebody who wants and is willing to learn about other people and cultures. 

 

I will say though that I've never been fond of the idea of setting the Dothraki on the people of Westeros unless we're talking about the Iron Islands and even then it would be salt wives and children who would feel the brunt of an attack like that so I can't say that it would feel root worthy. 

 

I think the book dragon riders will end up being Dany (Drogon), Tyrion (Rhaegal), and Brown Ben Plumm (he has Targ blood and one of the dragons, Viserion, took a shine to him).  Then something happens to Ben and Jon takes over by skinchanging into Viserion (which makes sense to me because V's the white dragon and would match Ghost and Jon's whole snow theme).  

 I too initially thought that Jon would end up with Viserion because of the color thing but I'm ultimately more swayed by the appropriateness of the names. I can't think of many reasons for why Tyrion would end up with Rhaegal. With Jon though not only is Rhaegal named after his father but I feel like bronze could be seen as fitting for Jon as a kind of nod to him having the blood of the First Men. Drogon's color's are right for House Targaryen and the gold in Viserion could maybe be a nod to the gold associated with House Lannister. I think it makes sense too for Tyrion to get the smallest dragon and I'm pretty sure that Viserion is the smallest.

 

I will say though that in favor of Rhaegal being for Tyrion and Viserion for Jon--if Dany is another Aegon the Conqueror then Tyrion would be the Rhaenys in that situation with Jon being more of a fit for Visenya. 

 

Am I the only one who wants Ayra to be a dragon rider?  I know she isn't a Targ, but she is a warg.  And as far as I can recall, two characters dreamed of being dragon riders in the books - Ayra and Tyrion.  Plus, the original three dragon riders were a man and two women.  I believe that Jon has a very important role to play, and while it would be cool if he rode the dragon named after his real father - I still want Ayra on that dragon with Jon leading the battle with Ghost at his side.

I think Arya has enough power in being a Faceless Man. Having her be able to do that and be a dragon rider would be too much for me personally. A beautiful girl who can become anyone, who can also fight, and she has a dragon and she's a warg and she has the most fearsome direwolf around? (I say the most fearsome because she has an army and she doesn't really answer to a master unlike Ghost and presumably Shaggy Dog.) I don't think Arya needs a dragon; she has enough.

 

As for Jon and Ghost, while I like the idea of them going into battle together I think that Ghost is going to die in order for Lightbringer to be forged. The only thing I can't decide about that is whether or not Ghost will be the second or third death it takes. 

 

As for the Nissa Nissa candidates if she ends up being human, my favorite choice is Arya actually. Any time I'm considering the AA/NN story happening again I think that whoever Jon ends up having to kill will have to be on board with dying because I can't see one of the main heroes of the story murdering a person he loves without basically getting their permission first. I think Dany is the second strongest candidate even if they haven't met yet. If it's Val I think I will vomit. Even Melisandre would make more sense if she's the one who brings him back to life but I don't think she's a strong candidate either even if the show is going with her apparently being 100% alive. 

Edited May 6, 2015 by Avaleigh

[Constantinople]

I would like it if the dragons dumped Danerys into the Narrow Sea then just flew south. I still have a big problem with the huge easy button she has. Problem? Dragons.

 

Even if she could control the dragons, I'm not sure how finely tuned they are as instruments of war in a civil insurrection.  I suppose she could torch other pyramids, similar to what happened to Harrenhal, but otherwise it would appear she'd have to destroy Meeren in order to save it.

[Maximum Taco]

Even if she could control the dragons, I'm not sure how finely tuned they are as instruments of war in a civil insurrection.  I suppose she could torch other pyramids, similar to what happened to Harrenhal, but otherwise it would appear she'd have to destroy Meeren in order to save it.

 

They're also patently useless in guerilla warfare like the Sons of the Harpy use.

 

That's how the Dornish countered Aegon's fully grown dragons.

 

Unless you want to massacre an entire army (Field of Fire) or torch a castle (Harrenhal) dragons are not useful. If your enemy strikes from the shadows and then runs back into hiding there's not much your dragons can do. Unless as you suggested she wants to throw the baby out with the bathwater by burning Meereen.

Edited May 6, 2015 by Maximum Taco

[SFoster21]

Right. The dragons will be useful when the Thread falls (sorry, Ursula LeQuin) or no, when the White Walkers appear.

[Funzlerks]

If the dragons are not useful, how did her ancestors conquer Westeros quite easily with a tiny army against large armies? Everything Danerys currently has is a direct result of having dragons. She has never achieved anything without them and now that she is in trouble again she is resurrecting her dragons to be of use to her.

Instead of hitting her easy button, she could have improved her leadership skills, but she cannot rule without them because she is largely uninterested in people at a deeper level. Her family, including Rhaeger, all seemed like pretty marginal people without dragons. Well, except for Maester Aemon, but he doesn't have much to do with Danerys. Other than disliking slavery, which doesn't exist in Westeros, Dany doesn't seem to have any big ideas other than conquering for the sake of conquering.

Edited May 6, 2015 by Funzlerks

[SFoster21]

I don't get how Stannis will rescue Sansa. Doesn't DoD have a scene where the Wall is notified that Stannis is dead and defeated and Theon re-captured? Will they veer that far from the books?

[SeanC]

If the dragons are not useful, how did her ancestors conquer Westeros quite easily with a tiny army against large armies?

The poster said that dragons are not useful outside of open warfare.  Aegon conquered six of the seven kingdoms when their armies met him in the field.  The only one he couldn't conquer and hold was Dorne, because the Dornish refused to face him in open combat.

I don't get how Stannis will rescue Sansa. Doesn't DoD have a scene where the Wall is notified that Stannis is dead and defeated and Theon re-captured? Will they veer that far from the books?

The letter claims that.  Most don't believe it.

[Cheshrkat]

 

I will say though that I've never been fond of the idea of setting the Dothraki on the people of Westeros unless we're talking about the Iron Islands and even then it would be salt wives and children who would feel the brunt of an attack

 

So much agreement with this.  While I'm usually more of an "everyone is entitled to their opinion" person, I've never understood those who romanticize the Dothraki (including Khal Drogo).  In the books, I viewed them as misogynistic thugs.  I sympathized with Mirri Maz Dur (did I remember that right?), who had been raped several times before Dany "saved" her.  I'd like to serve up most of the Dothraki to the Drowned God (given that they are so afraid of the open sea), while stranding the Iron Born in the desert wasteland that almost killed all of Dany's group.

[Unknown poster]

The poster said that dragons are not useful outside of open warfare.  Aegon conquered six of the seven kingdoms when their armies met him in the field.  The only one he couldn't conquer and hold was Dorne, because the Dornish refused to face him in open combat.

The letter claims that.  Most don't believe it.

Correct. In the letter, Ramsey claims he destroyed Stannis and his army, and demands the return of Reek and "Arya". Since we know those two were with Stannis, it seems pretty obvious its a bluff. Also, there has been at least one WoW chapter released from Theon's POV, before any battle takes place. So, unless they are messing with the time lines again, I think it's clear the letter isn't legit.

[Shanna]

I never liked the idea of setting the dothraki on westeros but it never really got anywhere close to happening so I didn't worry about it too much. That was a plan made by Danys brother who was a crazy asshole. (Or maybe master Illyrio?)

Dany talked a little about the dothraki but It didn't seem to be going anywhere since they rejected her.

Btw, what happened to her blood riders? Are they all dead in show?

Edited May 6, 2015 by Shanna

[WearyTraveler]

Why do people think the AA sword needs to be forged again? The story never says the sword was destroyed.  AA will be reborn, that's clear in all the prophesies but the sword was forged once, it doesn't need to be forged again.  I think it's more likely that the sword was given to the Mormonts (the House that lives furthest North) for safe-keeping and that through the years its history was forgotten.

 

Jon already has the sword he needs, he just doesn't know it yet.

[GreyBunny]

^ So Longclaw may actually be Lightbringer?  

 

I'm concerned that Jon may be dead and Mel will kill Ghost to bring him back to life.  
 

Correct. In the letter, Ramsey claims he destroyed Stannis and his army, and demands the return of Reek and "Arya". Since we know those two were with Stannis, it seems pretty obvious its a bluff. Also, there has been at least one WoW chapter released from Theon's POV, before any battle takes place. So, unless they are messing with the time lines again, I think it's clear the letter isn't legit.

 

The Pink Letter has

some direct quotes from the Winds of Winter teaser chapter with Theon: "He wants his bride back. He wants his Reek."   Also he says to Justin Massey "It may be that we shall lose this battle," the king said grimly. "In Braavos you may hear that I am dead. It may even be true."  It appears he's tipping off Massey that future news of his death may be just a rumor.

 Also the letter says "I want his wildling princess. I want his little prince, the wildling babe."  Why would Ramsay or any northern lord even consider them prince and princess? To him they'd just be a couple of wildlings.  It's Stannis and his buddies who keep trying to put royal titles on them so that lends some credence that Stannis penned it.

[Cheshrkat]

One thing I really am appreciating this year is both an expanded role for Stannis on the show and also a much more balanced (in my view) presentation of the character.  He's still charisma-less, as he is in the book, but I must say, Dillane does an amazing job in portraying the depth in the character despite the fact that he's purposely written as lacking the qualities that make most characters compelling.  And I find the writing is better - I loved loved loved the scene between Stannis and Shireen in Episode 4, and thought it was a great way to show the iron will behind Stannis without also making him someone you hate, by showcasing that unwavering determination in the context of his unwillingness to give up on his daughter.

 

But... I am now more than ever deathly afraid for Shireen's lifespan on the show.  I feel certain that Melisandre only wanted her up there as an eventual "kings-blood" sacrifice, and while I do not believe Stannis would ever allow it, I think she will wait until he is gone - I think she may leave for Winterfell with him, but something will intervene and result in her returning to Castle Black, and while I don't think Selyse would actually willingly sacrifice her daughter, she is not strong enough to stand up to Melisandre.

 

I am therefore hoping fervently that D&D are intending to use Shireen as a replacement for Mance Raydar's son - that Jon somehow finds out about Melisandre's plan and sneaks Sam/Gilly off to Oldtown with Shireen instead of Mance's son (plus I think they will take Gilly's baby as well) - I think that is why they showed Shireen teaching Gilly how to read.  Plus, it would be a nice book-end if Gilly ended up protecting Shireen from Selyse after Selyse warned her to stay away from wildlings.

 

I really don't want Shireen to die.  Of course, I also don't want Stannis (after Arya, he's my favorite character) to die, and that might be the other shoe that drops, notwithstanding the book's pink letter subterfuge.  I am seeing a lot of commentary that either he or Shireen, or both, will be dead by the end of the season.  I'm desperate for other options.

[WearyTraveler]

^ So Longclaw may actually be Lightbringer?  

 

 

 

 

That's what I'm thinking.  It was given to Jon in a very special moment and he's been very careful not to lose it, even in the most dire situations North of the Wall, and after he escalated it with the Wildlings and escaped to Castle Black.  I think those details are important.  It may be that the sword doesn't activate (for lack of a better word) until AA is reborn, that is, when Jon resurrects after being stabbed.

[Winnief]

I am therefore hoping fervently that D&D are intending to use Shireen as a replacement for Mance Raydar's son - that Jon somehow finds out about Melisandre's plan and sneaks Sam/Gilly off to Oldtown with Shireen instead of Mance's son (plus I think they will take Gilly's baby as well) - I think that is why they showed Shireen teaching Gilly how to read.  Plus, it would be a nice book-end if Gilly ended up protecting Shireen from Selyse after Selyse warned her to stay away from wildlings.

 

 

I really, really love that theory,  because like you I don't want Shireen to die, or for House Baratheon's bloodline to go extinct.  (If Shireen survives to inherit Storm's End or even Dragonstone then scars or not she can get a husband and continue the line if only on the maternal side.  And for that matter, Shireen's great-grandmother was a Targaryen-which could make her a potential dragon rider.)  And as someone who was never a fan of the whole baby switching storyline, I think that angle works much better. Plus it would be such an adorable family unit.  I think Jon will be resurrected in part via blood sacrifice but that it will be Theon's blood that's used, and that will be Theon's merciful release/redemption. 

 

Of course if they do that, then Sam, Gilly, and Shireen may not go to Oldtown but to Braavos, (to link their stories with Arya, and D&D could explain it as Jon needing Sam to do business with the Iron Bank or getting supplies there or something,) or even another location that D&D have in mind.  Or maybe Oldtown/Highgarden after all if that's to be featured in Season 6. 

 

It's certainly possible that Longclaw could be Lightbringer.  Another option is Oathkeeper-yet another reason for D&D to make sure to have Brienne in place up at the North right now.

Edited May 6, 2015 by Winnief

[Avaleigh]

I will be very surprised if we actually see some kid burn to death on the show. I'll be shocked actually. I know kids die in asoiaf but they tend to not be kids we know very well not counting the occasional little asshole like Joffrey. There's also Mycah, Lommy, babies in brothels, the boys Theon killed--all horrible examples of course but it's never been someone we've known at all well, and all but Lommy's happened off camera. I'm 90% sure that it'll only be a scare and that someone will save Shireen. 

 

Cheshrkat, love your idea of Shireen being a substitute for Baby Mance. Selyse seems awfully upset in that shot of her on the ground though. If Jon is able to get Shireen to safety somehow it seems like it might happen at the last minute. He'd need more assistance than Sam and Gilly if it's happening in front of everyone. 

 

I'd like to think this could mean that Oldtown might still happen but I know I'm not that lucky. I'd like to say that they could go to Winterfell but again I don't think I'm that lucky. I'm not sure what that leaves lol. 

 

Why do people think the AA sword needs to be forged again? The story never says the sword was destroyed.  AA will be reborn, that's clear in all the prophesies but the sword was forged once, it doesn't need to be forged again.  I think it's more likely that the sword was given to the Mormonts (the House that lives furthest North) for safe-keeping and that through the years its history was forgotten.

 

Jon already has the sword he needs, he just doesn't know it yet.

I think we were told the story in order to prepare us for another character doing something similar. Jon just realizing that his sword happens to be the magic sword feels too simple to me. I think he has to make it happen. 

 

My thought is that he'll reforge Longclaw when he finds out who he is and he'll swap the bear's head for that of a wolf or a dragon or maybe even some combination of the two. 

 

I like the idea of Oathkeeper being a contender as well. And Dawn. I definitely still have Dawn in the back of my head. 

[Elkins]

I was one of the people outraged by the rape in the Sept scene but I didn't feel the same outrage when we had those men of the Night's Watch raping and wreaking general havoc over at Craster's. It made sense to me to include this scene to remind viewers that most men on the Wall aren't like Jon or Sam but are very often hardened criminals who would be willing to steal, rape, and kill given the right circumstances. 

 

Same here. In fact, I can even see why the show-runners might have thought it necessary to include that scene. It seems to me that the show audience is a lot less forgiving of the GrimOldTimes aesthetic than book readers are. I was surprised, for example, by how many show-only watchers never quite forgave Ned for executing the Night's Watch deserter in the first episode, even going so far as to call it "karma" when he himself eventually suffered the same fate. Reading the books, it just never would have occurred to me to be horrified by Ned's sentencing a military deserter to death. That's just...sort of expected in a quasi-historical setting, you know? Perhaps it's because a visual medium makes everything feel far more immediate and visceral, but for whatever reason, it seems to me that the show needs to go a lot further than the books did to justify its protagonists taking violent action without losing audience sympathy.

 

Jon Snow is one of our "good guys," yet he's totally down with showing up at Craster's and killing every last man he finds there. In order to make that seem okay to the TV audience, maybe the audience really did need to first be convinced that these men were Seriously Bad Dudes Who Need Killin' .

 

Maybe Ghost Grass poisons dragons too.  There seems to be too much mentioning of those three, too much foreshadowing, too much magical connection for them to just be Shit That Happens in Planetos That's Bad, But Not As Bad As The Others.

 

Does Ghost Grass get more attention in the recent world book, or am I forgetting it getting more mentions in ADWD? I only remember it being mentioned once, and...I don't know, maybe this is stupid, but I always assumed that it was an orally handed-down memory of snow, or maybe of hoarfrost, of frost on grass. I thought that the legend of the Ghost Grass spreading and ending the world was basically the Dothraki equivalent of the prophecied Super Bad Winter -- a winter so severe that even the Dothraki Sea will be frozen, which would be a pretty major catastrophe for nomadic horse people who have never had to deal with freezing temperatures before. But maybe I was totally off on my own flight of fancy there.

 

The constant focus on greyscale this season really is intriguing, though, isn't it? I can't wait to see where that's going.

 

But... I am now more than ever deathly afraid for Shireen's lifespan on the show.  I feel certain that Melisandre only wanted her up there as an eventual "kings-blood" sacrifice, and while I do not believe Stannis would ever allow it, I think she will wait until he is gone -

 

I'm utterly terrified for her as well. I'm also a little creeped out by something I saw hypothesized elsewhere: that possibly the reason the wildlings don't believe that grayscale ever goes dormant is that unlike most of the 7K folks, they burn their dead -- and the specific way in which dormant grayscale can reawaken to infect people is through inhalation after being incinerated. In other words, the northern vector for the speculated future grayscale epidemic might be Shireen...but only if she is burnt for her kingsblood.

 

Huh. You know what? Actually, now that I've typed all that out, it sounds so remarkably improbable to me that I'm feeling far more cheerful about it. Sure, I know, magic, whatever, but that's so far removed from any real world means of virus transmission that I somehow can't see Martin writing it. (ETA: also, I think that Avaleigh is probably right in thinking they'd balk at actually burning Shireen to death, although they very likely willl threaten it.)

 

It looks as if grayscale really is going to be important to the endgame, though, as otherwise it's hard for me to imagine that the showrunners wouldn't have excised it. I'm insanely eager to find out what its role might be.

Edited May 6, 2015 by Elkins

[benteen]

Is Melisandre going to be heading to Winterfell with Stannis?  Cause that's going to create some problems when Jon killed stabbed.

 

As greyscale, looks like we'll be getting the Stone Men next week based on a shot I saw in the trailer.

[WearyTraveler]

I think we were told the story in order to prepare us for another character doing something similar. Jon just realizing that his sword happens to be the magic sword feels too simple to me. I think he has to make it happen. 

 

But we are told many stories that serve as background info and help us understand current events without repeating the story exactly.  Everything having to do with the Children of the Forest, the First Men, or the history of the Stark family, for example.  I think the only events we could expect to be reproduced word by word are the prophecies specially those related to AA and Dany's visions in The House of the Undying.  The rest just seems historical background to better explain current events.  To me, anyway.

 

Also, Jon wouldn't suddenly realize he has a magic sword, because it will not be magic until he is reborn.  The sword will only respond to AA reborn, so, Longclaw will not become the magic sword until then.

 

I like Oathkeeper as a contender too, but can't imagine how that would happen in the books, since Brienne and the sword are in the Riverlands when Jon is being stabbed.  I think that Jon's resurrection needs to happen pretty quickly after his death, otherwise, his body would be in decomposition stages, and that's not a pretty sight for "the prince that was promised", who will deliver the world of the zombie apocalypse. Furthermore, we have seen that any resurrection that leaves the risen one in functional order (Beric Dondarrion, Lady Stoneheart) happen pretty close to death, I think we are supposed to feel that unless the magical resurrection event happens close to death, it won't have a satisfactory result.  I also feel that the sword, being such a huge identifier of AA (so much so that Melissandre feels the need to trick Stannis sword to appear as Lightbringer and it's only Master Aemon who realizes it is not because it's a cold sword) would have to be at hand when Jon is reborn.  Ergo, the sword must be close at hand when Jon is resurrected, and that only leaves Longclaw, which is the only Valyrian steel sword in close proximity to him when he's stabbed.

 

As for Jon's dragon, I think that since he is literally the product of Fire (Rhaegar) and Ice (Lyanna), his animals would have to represent those elements and their houses; so, white for the direwolf (ice) and red for the dragon (fire).

[GreyBunny]

I love the idea of Sam and Gilly taking Shireen south to Horn Hill (or wherever) to protect her.  I don't think Oathkeeper is high on the list for Lightbringer, it was forged from Ice which was just a regular, if large, Valyrian steel sword.  Dawn's white shimmer is eerie, I think that one is a better candidate.

[Holmbo]

I don't think Jon will have to be resurrected right away because they can store him in the wall so he's kept fresh ;)

About Shireen I really can't see her being burnt to death. Not because I don't think the show would go there if needed but just cause I don't see what purpose it would have for the plot. So Melisandre comes back to the wall after going with Stannis and decides to burn Shireen which result in... ?

I just don't see the point of it.

By the way does anyone else think that Melisandre has misunderstood the whole kings blood thing? She seems to be assuming anyone who calls themselves king automatically has magical blood. That makes little sense to me and I think any effect the blood has (which what has it done so far?) Is just due to blood magic. The prophecy stuff about kings blood I think means not literal blood but kings relative. So the prophecy is that akings relative will help wake dragon out of stone.

Unless we think that while prophecy has already happened with Dany.

[Brn2bwild]

So much agreement with this.  While I'm usually more of an "everyone is entitled to their opinion" person, I've never understood those who romanticize the Dothraki (including Khal Drogo).  In the books, I viewed them as misogynistic thugs.  I sympathized with Mirri Maz Dur (did I remember that right?), who had been raped several times before Dany "saved" her.  I'd like to serve up most of the Dothraki to the Drowned God (given that they are so afraid of the open sea), while stranding the Iron Born in the desert wasteland that almost killed all of Dany's group.

 

If Martin lives to complete the series and does a follow-up novel set 10 years after the conclusion, I could see a situation where Dothraki horselords have become a menace in Westeros because they are intermarrying with the hill clans, creating threats to the small folk and great families alike.  Queen Dany would then be forced to make the difficult decision of whether to exterminate the group that aided her rise.

Edited May 7, 2015 by Brn2bwild

[WearyTraveler]

I don't think Jon will have to be resurrected right away because they can store him in the wall so he's kept fresh ;)

 

He, he! I'll have an order of frozen, epic hero to go, please!

 

I think they wouldn't do that in the books since that's what they did with the bodies of the rangers who later rose as wights and almost killed LC Mormont.  I don't see it happening on the show either because it would delay things too much and they only have a few episodes left to wrap it all up.  I think Jon's resurrection will either happen at the end of this season, as a closing shot that will leave the unsullied wondering if Jon is a wight, or in the first episode next season.

 

Regarding Jon's resurrection, I think it would be a thousand times better, in the books and on the show, if Melissandre had nothing to do with it.  Just as no one had anything to do with Dany becoming the Mother of Dragons (Mirri told her the rules, but Dany, who was no sorceress and had never done magic, did it all by herself).  In the books we finally got some insight into Melissandre, and she's starting to question her interpretation of her visions, which are not all that straightforward.  I think it would be extremely powerful if Jon rose all by himself because he just IS Azor Ahai, and he doesn't need Melissandre's help to be reborn.  The fact that the show has Melissandre leaving with Stannis makes me think that this is the way it will happen on the show.

Edited May 7, 2015 by WearyTraveler

[Shanna]

I honestly don't trust anything Melisandre says so I don't know what to think of her prophecies. We know she lies and in her head she thinks she misinterprets but it's been a while since I read her chapters...

I think what she isn't lying about is usually wrong. And I have no idea why she burns people, unless she just likes it. I always wondered if she wasn't serving the evil counterpart to The Lord of light.

Edited May 7, 2015 by Shanna

[Constantinople]

I love the idea of Sam and Gilly taking Shireen south to Horn Hill (or wherever) to protect her.

 

I thought in the books the idea was to send Gilly and Mance's son to Horn Hill and claim that the baby was Sam's.

 

I don't know how they do that with Shireen since Sam hasn't been in the Night's Watch anywhere near long enough to have a daughter Shireen's age.

 

There's also the tricky situation of sending the Baratheon heir into Lannister allied country.  Presumably they'd come up with a cover story, but that cover story would need to be more complicated than for Mance's son, and thus more likely to get blown.

 

Also, doesn't Shireen still have some distinguishing marks as a result of the greyscale?

[that one guy]

Correct. In the letter, Ramsey claims he destroyed Stannis and his army, and demands the return of Reek and "Arya". Since we know those two were with Stannis, it seems pretty obvious its a bluff.

 

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and speculate that Mance Rayder wrote that letter. Why would Ramsey care about "the wildling princess" or even be aware of her existence? So, with no baby on the show and Mance apparently dead for real, will there even be a letter?

 

I hope/suspect that Mance the infiltrator is replaced by Tormund Giantsbane on TV, because he's believable as an entertainer. But I highly doubt the man can read.

[GreyBunny]

Shireen has spent her life locked away on Dragonstone so no one knows what she looks like.  She was an infant/toddler when she was treated so any maesters they come across wouldn't recognize her.  Also, she's not the only child that has gotten greyscale, so she could easily be passed off as Gilly's daughter by someone else or her little sister.  Show!Sam may yet get Gilly pregnant with his child for real which would be their ticket into Horn Hill.

Edited May 7, 2015 by GreyBunny

[Avaleigh]

Shireen has spent her life locked away on Dragonstone so no one knows what she looks like.  She was an infant/toddler when she was treated so any maesters they come across wouldn't recognize her.  Also, she's not the only child that has gotten greyscale, so she could easily be passed off as Gilly's daughter by someone else or her little sister.  Show!Sam may yet get Gilly pregnant with his child for real which would be their ticket into Horn Hill.

How does that work though? Sam swore a vow just as they all did. It's one thing for him to go to the Citadel so that he can become a Maester for the Night's Watch but for him to just go home to chill with Gilly, why would he be allowed to get away with that? Furthermore, why would his father let him when last time we heard he said that he'd have to go to the Wall if he didn't want to suffer a tragic "accident".  

[Shanna]

How does that work though? Sam swore a vow just as they all did. It's one thing for him to go to the Citadel so that he can become a Maester for the Night's Watch but for him to just go home to chill with Gilly, why would he be allowed to get away with that? Furthermore, why would his father let him when last time we heard he said that he'd have to go to the Wall if he didn't want to suffer a tragic "accident".

Horn hill is close the citadel iirc. So he should be able to do it like the book.

[nksarmi]

I honestly don't trust anything Melisandre says so I don't know what to think of her prophecies. We know she lies and in her head she thinks she misinterprets but it's been a while since I read her chapters...

I think what she isn't lying about is usually wrong. And I have no idea why she burns people, unless she just likes it. I always wondered if she wasn't serving the evil counterpart to The Lord of light.

I think in the books Mel believes Stannis fulfills the prophesy and she very much seems like a true believer in the Lord of Light.  And frankly, if she resurrects Jon - she has served her purpose for me.

 

On the show, her motivations are harder to understand because she doesn't talk as much about the ultimate battle and the role she believes Stannis will play.  In the books, it's clear to me she doesn't give two cents about who sits the Iron Throne - she really believes Stannis is the one.  Aemon seems to think she does as well when he says, she had it wrong.  He comes to believe its Dany and I certainly understand his reasons for that.

 

Personally, I almost believe it is Dany as well except GRRM has taken no steps to make her capable in wielding a sword.  For her to fulfill the prophesy to me, I would have liked to see her be a little more like Arya and want to be a Warrior Queen.  They could have had her husband teach her some, Jorah as well, and then Ser Barrister and her lover now that she is in Mereen.  Dany getting to the point where she could kill with a sword even though she is small like Arya would have gone a long way to make me believe she truly was the fulfillment to the prophesy. 

 

So that is why I can see the argument that it will be Jon and I don't blame anyone for not figuring it out yet since his parentage is still unrevealed to most of Westerous. 

 

However, one would think with the revelation that Dany has brought three dragons to life making its way throughout the land, Mel would have at least considered that Dany might be important and I don't think we've ever heard her mention her, have we?

[John Potts]

I've always believed Mel is sincere in believing Stannis to be Azor Azhai - but that doesn't make her any less scary. I'm reasonably sure that Robbespierre, Lenin and Pol Pot were all sincere in the belief they were creating a perfect society. That doesn't mean hey weren't scary people with a combined body count in the millions.

 

From what I recall of a preview chapter

Stannis captures Winterfell and is holding Theon there (suspended by his wrists), who seems pretty resigned to his fate.

Edited May 8, 2015 by John Potts

[SeanC]

Discussing some spoilers for upcoming episodes:

 

Well, the other shoe has dropped regarding the Winterfell story, in the form of more information from that site that exists to catalogue upcoming TV nudity/sex scenes.  The marriage at Winterfell is in episode 6, complete with Sansa being "deflowered" by Ramsay, in a scene that is supposedly primarily focused on Theon's reaction; given that that fits with the description Alfie Allen gave of the horrible scene that will make huge waves, and Iwan Rheon's talk about the worst thing he's ever done, I'm guessing he gets quite violent.  So D&D have rewritten Sansa's story to include her being violently raped.

 

Well, mark your calendars for the shitstorm.

Edited May 8, 2015 by SeanC

[Avaleigh]

I think in the books Mel believes Stannis fulfills the prophesy and she very much seems like a true believer in the Lord of Light.  And frankly, if she resurrects Jon - she has served her purpose for me.

 

On the show, her motivations are harder to understand because she doesn't talk as much about the ultimate battle and the role she believes Stannis will play.  In the books, it's clear to me she doesn't give two cents about who sits the Iron Throne - she really believes Stannis is the one.  Aemon seems to think she does as well when he says, she had it wrong.  He comes to believe its Dany and I certainly understand his reasons for that.

 

Personally, I almost believe it is Dany as well except GRRM has taken no steps to make her capable in wielding a sword.  For her to fulfill the prophesy to me, I would have liked to see her be a little more like Arya and want to be a Warrior Queen.  They could have had her husband teach her some, Jorah as well, and then Ser Barrister and her lover now that she is in Mereen.  Dany getting to the point where she could kill with a sword even though she is small like Arya would have gone a long way to make me believe she truly was the fulfillment to the prophesy. 

 

So that is why I can see the argument that it will be Jon and I don't blame anyone for not figuring it out yet since his parentage is still unrevealed to most of Westerous. 

 

However, one would think with the revelation that Dany has brought three dragons to life making its way throughout the land, Mel would have at least considered that Dany might be important and I don't think we've ever heard her mention her, have we?

This is precisely why I think that Jon makes more sense as AAR than Dany. When I first started reading the series I thought that Dany would initially be on some sort of path to becoming a warrior queen but it never happened and she doesn't seem interested. 

 

As far as the coulda woulda shoulda in this scenario--

It never really made much sense to me anyway that Viserys wasn't all about training to become as skilled a fighter as he could be and even if he didn't have all of the money for the equipment to help him become a knight, I feel like the last son of the House Targaryen could have found somebody to train him if he'd really wanted. With the first Visenya having trained with Aegon I feel like it would have made sense for Viserys to eventually help train Dany as he would see it as a benefit to him further down the road. Have Jorah come into the picture as someone who is there to help train the Targaryens and be the one to give Viserys a knighthood only it ends up never happening. Then when Barristan comes into the picture he can be seen as the superior fighter and teacher and Jorah can feel resentful of that on top of everything else.   

 

Since Dany isn't a skilled fighter though I can't think for a moment why she should end up with Lightbringer. This is another reason why I think that she could end up in the role of Nissa Nissa assuming that Lightbringer needs to be made again.  I can't get on board with Jon just conveniently already having the right sword that will go all magical after he's been resurrected. 

 

Maybe it's Lord of the Rings-ish but I feel like the sword has to be reforged in order to become Lightbringer. The other way feels too simple IMO. 

 

Even Mel seemed to expect that she had to treat Stannis's sword to make it into the so-called Lightbringer. She wasn't expecting it to just start to glow just because her candidate for AAR happened to touch it. 

[SeanC]

With all the 'dragon has three heads' discussion, I'm not sure there's going to be just one person fulfilling the role.  

 

And I really don't believe any of the Nissa Nissa theories, regarding Dany or any of the series' other major female POVs; the idea that the culmination of their stories is going to be to die so that a male character can save the day is a really regressive notion.