Television Vs. Book: Why'd They Make [Spoiler] Such A [Spoiler]?

[Lady S.]

I don't think D&D give a shit about the backlash to Septgate, or how sick people got of s3 Theon/Ramsay, for that matter. They wouldn't be doing this if they did care about any of that, they're not that stupid.

 

See I don't mind Sansa going to WF under false pretenses or even Sansa doing an arranged marriage solely to get the upper hand and/or help her brothers.  I can see her (like Osha with Theon in Season 2) deciding to do whatever it takes to get the job done-and no one would think any less of her for it.  As long as she was in control if you know what I mean.  But if we have to watch a girl we've practically seen grow up on screen become Ramsay's latest 'toy' for NO GODDAMN REASON...we'll if they thought the backlash from the Sept scene was bad they ain't seen nothing yet.

Theon was always easily manipulated which made him an easy target for Osha. A Sansa/Ramsay consummation could never go that way without him being severely OOC. Not that you're saying it would, but there were commenters on WotW acting like this would just be s3 Marg/Joff 2.0 when the rumors first started, and they're somehow shocked it won't be.

Edited April 16, 2015 by Lady S.

[Winnief]

Theon was always easily manipulated which made him an easy target for Osha. A Sansa/Ramsay consummation could never go that way without him being severely OOC. Not that you're saying it would, but there were commenters on WotW acting like this would just be s3 Marg/Joff 2.0 when the rumors first started, and they're somehow shocked it won't be.

 

 

No I was thinking a scenario like that could have happened though with Sansa/HtH, or some other such character.  Hell maybe even Littlefinger for that matter...but not with Ramsay.  Which is why I really, REALLY hope we're somehow still being misled and Sansa doesn't actually have to marry Ramsay...but sadly I'm starting to think it might be true after all.

 

THough, if it DOES happen, then that makes all the reviews that have come out so far seem misleading that they glossed over something like *that*.

[Lady S.]

An actor they're both excited to get to work with sounds more like Sophie than some random newbie. And I think Michael confirmed a Winterfell wedding at the premiere, and I know one of the Ds has promised three weddings this year, the other two would have to be Tommen/Marg and Dany/Hiz. I wouldn't hold my breath for a surprise Myrcella/Trystane wedding to be the third instead of Ramsay's.

 

 

THough, if it DOES happen, then that makes all the reviews that have come out so far seem misleading that they glossed over something like *that*.

 

They're not going to reveal why Sansa's going to Winterfell in reviews of screeners.

[WearyTraveler]

I'm still of the opinion that Sansa in Winterfell will be going there willingly to seek revenge, and that whatever the play is, she will be a willing participant.  The show closed Sansa last season with a very dramatic scene that signaled she'd changed.  I don't think they would have done that only to regress her.  It is possible, off course, but I still don't think so.

 

The article says:

Both Allen and Rheon were excited to work with the new actor, with Allen calling it an "absolute joy."

 

I don't recall exactly, but didn't Sansa and Theon (Turner and Allen) share some screen time in season 1 before half the Starks headed to King's Landing?  If so, the actor wouldn't be new to Allen.

[Constantinople]

I don't recall exactly, but didn't Sansa and Theon (Turner and Allen) share some screen time in season 1 before half the Starks headed to King's Landing?  If so, the actor wouldn't be new to Allen.

Ned, Sansa & Arya hit the (kings)road in Episode 2, so any shared screen time would have been in the pilot. I don't recall the characters talking or interacting with each other in the pilot.

[ElizaD]

No I was thinking a scenario like that could have happened though with Sansa/HtH, or some other such character.  Hell maybe even Littlefinger for that matter...but not with Ramsay.  Which is why I really, REALLY hope we're somehow still being misled and Sansa doesn't actually have to marry Ramsay...but sadly I'm starting to think it might be true after all.

 

I don't think anything like this happens to Sansa in the books. It's just Jeyne's story given to a different character even though it makes no sense. They had zero interest in exploring or even acknowledging any emotional consequences of the Jaime/Cersei rape, so to me it's perfectly believable that they would have Sansa raped and treat it as just another shock twist that's no different from Jaime going to Dorne instead of the Riverlands; female rape victims, like locations, are interchangeable.

 

I'd guess they have Sansa and Littlefinger as partners in crime in the early episodes (the followup to the Maleficent walk), and then he returns to KL and she becomes Ramsay's new plaything. It's still stunning to me that they would want to change the plot of a major POV character, who we've seen grow up onscreen, so that she can take a minor character's place as a rape victim, but at this point with all the interviews and information it really seems that the only reason to argue against it is "they wouldn't do that." It's the show's fondness for female nudity/rape threats and indifference to criticism of these elements taken to the logical conclusion. Instead of invented characters like Ros/random prostitutes or a minor character like Meera being abused, they get the far greater controversy (attention is good!) of going through with the rape of a young major character. Extreme edginess and pleasing the infamous "pervert side" of the audience in one plot. I've moved from my initial reaction "of course they wouldn't make such a change" to "of course they would do it." They'll cut a ton of content from the books, but not a rape even if they've cut the actual victim and so have to swap in a different female character.

 

The North was the best-written plot in ADWD and I've been looking forward to it for years. Now it seems the showrunners have cut the focus on Theon, the Northern lords' support for the Starks, Manderly's revenge, and the increasing tension at Winterfell with the Boltons slowly starting to lose control (which will hardly be possible if the only named characters inside are Ramsay's two powerless playthings). The key thing about the plot that they wanted to keep was marital rape, which was already its worst part and seemed like GRRM trying to see how he could outdo previous abuses with even worse torture porn. Interviews and spoilers truly make it sound like the show's version will be silent Theon in the background while Sansa is raped until it's time for him to grab Sansa, a helpless victim again, and jump. Nothing is achieved, not even the background progress Manderly was able to make on his revenge. But won't it be shocking and edgy and awesome that a Bolton gets to rape Sansa at Winterfell!

[Winnief]

The North was the best-written plot in ADWD and I've been looking forward to it for years. Now it seems the showrunners have cut the focus on Theon, the Northern lords' support for the Starks, Manderly's revenge, and the increasing tension at Winterfell with the Boltons slowly starting to lose control (which will hardly be possible if the only named characters inside are Ramsay's two powerless playthings). The key thing about the plot that they wanted to keep was marital rape, which was already its worst part and seemed like GRRM trying to see how he could outdo previous abuses with even worse torture porn. Interviews and spoilers truly make it sound like the show's version will be silent Theon in the background while Sansa is raped until it's time for him to grab Sansa, a helpless victim again, and jump. Nothing is achieved, not even the background progress Manderly was able to make on his revenge. But won't it be shocking and edgy and awesome that a Bolton gets to rape Sansa at Winterfell!

 

God I hope you're wrong about that.  Not just as a Sansa fan but because as you said the Northern plot in ADWD was a highlight in a otherwise disappointing book, and I for one was really looking forward to Frey Pie, and Roose Bolton starting to realize he signed his own death warrant with the Red Wedding. 

[Advance35]

Yeah, if this is happening on the show, then probably in the books something just as bad happens soon, and it's Littlefinger's fault.

 

 

This is my outlook too.  I assume Sansa's "maiden head" will be a thing of the past by the end of TWOW, I don't know if it'll be Harry or LF himself but I do trust D & D in that they are streamlining things.  And as readers we don't know what is going to happen by the end of TWOW, if the worst thing to happen to Sansa from here on out is she can't have lemon cakes after dinner, than good for her BUT there is the distinct possibility that there is MORE horror ahead and it could very well have a sexual connotation to it.

 

Who has the screen time (10 eps a year and a cast up to wazoo), The Budget (new sets for Bravos, Dorne, etc) to create Vale sets and cast actors/actresses with SIZEABLE parts.  That was never going to happen.   They had to keep her as part of the main narrative and going to WF was the best way to do it.

 

I'm still of the opinion that Sansa in Winterfell will be going there willingly to seek revenge, and that whatever the play is, she will be a willing participant.  The show closed Sansa last season with a very dramatic scene that signaled she'd changed.  I don't think they would have done that only to regress her.  It is possible, off course, but I still don't think so.

 

IA.  I know many scream that D&D are the worst things to ever happen to ASOIAF but I disagree.  I think they've put together a very good show, GRRM was going no where fast and the show has seemed to light a fire under him.   Some characters aren't going the way other people expect BUT they know how it all ends the rest of us don't.   The only way I feel comfortable saying they took a wrong turn is in hindsight.  

 

And I think the actor that plays Ramsay is awesome.  I've seen other work by him and he can be very magnetic so I can't wait to see and Sansa on screen together from an acting perspective.

[Winnief]

This is my outlook too.  I assume Sansa's "maiden head" will be a thing of the past by the end of TWOW, I don't know if it'll be Harry or LF himself but I do trust D & D in that they are streamlining things.  And as readers we don't know what is going to happen by the end of TWOW, if the worst thing to happen to Sansa from here on out is she can't have lemon cakes after dinner, than good for her BUT there is the distinct possibility that there is MORE horror ahead and it could very well have a sexual connotation to it.

 

 

Point taken.  It's just that *Ramsay* in particular is SO horrifying, (and I never felt more sorry for anyone in the story than poor, poor Jeyne Poole,) that even if they *are* just streamlining, it still seems gratuitous.

 

And I think the actor that plays Ramsay is awesome.  I've seen other work by him and he can be very magnetic so I can't wait to see and Sansa on screen together from an acting perspective.

 

Granted, Sophie, Alfie, and Iwan will definitely act the hell out of those scenes.  I'm just not sure I'll be able to stand to watch.

 

Oh well, one consolation is that however, Sansa gets up North, it *will* give Sophie the opportunity to start interacting with new actors in Season 6 like Stephen Dillane, Carice, and Kit.  I'm just trying to hold on long enough for us to get a Stark re-union on screen.

 

For the record I LOVE the show and think that D&D *usually* do a very, very good job of adapting the material but they have made some noteworthy missteps as well.  Still I'm here til the bitter end because frankly its the only closure I think we'll ever get for the series, but it ain't always easy.

Edited April 16, 2015 by Winnief

[Constantinople]

This is my outlook too.  I assume Sansa's "maiden head" will be a thing of the past by the end of TWOW, I don't know if it'll be Harry or LF himself but I do trust D & D in that they are streamlining things.

Streamlining isn't a virtue if it turns a a plot point that made sense in the books to a plot point that doesn't make sense.

Passing someone off as Arya to marry Ramsay made political sense. Jeyne Poole didn't have any say in the matter because she was under the control of the Lannisters and then Boltons. No one cared what happened to her so long as she lives long enough to have children. And Ramsay is Ramsay.

Sansa does have a say in the matter. In the show, unlike the books, she told lords of the Vale, or at least the 3 most important, that's she's Ned Stark's daughter. She can rat out Littlefinger any time she chooses. Plus, we're expected to believe that she's smart enough to concoct a story at the last moment that saves Littlefinger from being tossed out the Moor Door, but dumb enough not to press Littlefinger for more details. Bonus points for turning Littelfinger from an intelligent, informed political player into an ignorant moron.

 

They had to keep her as part of the main narrative and going to WF was the best way to do it.

What they have to do is tell a story that makes sense, not just say "Let's rape Sansa" when her story line isn't spoon fed to them by GRRM.

 

I know many scream that D&D are the worst things to ever happen to ASOIAF

No one is arguing here that that D&D are the worst things to ever happen to ASOIAF.

But D&D aren't infallible and they have questionable judgment, to put it mildly, when it comes to sexual violence.

[Advance35]

Sansa does have a say in the matter. In the show, unlike the books, she told lords of the Vale, or at least the 3 most important, that's she's Ned Stark's daughter. She can rat out Littlefinger any time she chooses. Plus, we're expected to believe that she's smart enough to concoct a story at the last moment that saves Littlefinger from being tossed out the Moor Door, but dumb enough not to press Littlefinger for more details. Bonus points for turning Littelfinger from an intelligent, informed political player into an ignorant moron.

 

She decided last season she doesn't want to pin her hopes on The Lords of the Vale.  She didn't trust them enough to tell them the truth, she didn't trust that they wouldn't execute her.  Even in the premier though she doesn't think  Lord Royce will betray them she apparently doesn't trust him to see himself and her through upcoming political events.  She thinks she knows what LF ultimately wants and thinks that can work to her advantage or at least thats the impression I've been given.  But like so many things Subjective.

 

And for the record I'd question how much the Lords of the Vale or anyone else in Westeros cares about Sansa now that her House has fallen.   The Tyrells have no use for her now that she's an enemy to the Throne, The Lannisters have no use for her either.  House Martell has never been concerned and House Tully is all but finished.  She could be useful in the right hands for PR reasons but at this stage in the game other than as a figure head, she doesn't have much more worth than Fake!Arya/Jeyne.

 

Point taken.  It's just that *Ramsay* in particular is SO horrifying, (and I never felt more sorry for anyone in the story than poor, poor Jeyne Poole,) that even if they *are* just streamlining, it still seems gratuitous.

 

I honestly can't think of what they could have done with Sansa if they couldn't cast a sub!cast of Vale Lords.   I guess they could have put ST out to pasture for a season like Bran, but otherwise.......I'm drawing a blank.   Would we have gotten a scene every other episode of LF giving a soliliquy with Sansa keeping an oblique look on her face.  I don't know what else they could have done.

 

Granted, Sophie, Alfie, and Iwan will definitely act the hell out of those scenes.  I'm just not sure I'll be able to stand to watch.

Oh well, one consolation is that however, Sansa gets up North, it *will* give Sophie the opportunity to start interacting with new actors in Season 6 like Stephen Dillane, Carice, and Kit.  I'm just trying to hold on long enough for us to get a Stark re-union on screen.

 

I read one of the reviews that said they really liked the Sansa scenes with the Boltons.   It's a fine edge sword I think.  They MASSIVELY watered down Sansa's time in Kings Landing.  In books 2 and 3 MUCH of the abuse Sansa suffered had a sexual connotation to it to the point where I breathed a sigh of relief when she got on LF's boat BUT they omitted MUCH of it from the show and as a result Sansa isn't viewed by many as having suffered like her siblings.   People still hold the fact that she didn't leave with the Hound against the character where in the book I thought that was a wise choice.

 

And like you I am very interested in seeing Sansa have scenes with Stannis, Mel, Jon and others.     IA their have been DEFINITE missteps during the course of this show but I can't feel like the sky is falling until I see how it all plays out and can compare it to whatever GRRM has planned for her.

[nksarmi]

I'm confused - do we have spoilers saying Littlefinger is taking Sansa to Winterfell to marry Bolton?  If so, I'm not sure I mind and I'm not 100% positive he would rape her (unless we have those spoilers as well?). 

 

Given that uncle Kevin doesn't seem nearly as strong a character in the show as he was in the books, the Lannisters are all but done in Kings Landing.  Cersi could not maintain power much longer even if we didn't have the religious trial coming.  So given they have little else to do with Sansa, having her work to regain control of Winterfell and by extension - the North - makes sense.  If she is going to come to power, doing so in the North where her little brother is in hiding and her older half brother is at the Wall works for her story.

 

Plus there are few things Littlefinger probably knows - he likely knows Stanis is at the Wall, he will probably know when Jon comes to power at the Wall, depending on how good his spies are, he might even know that Rickon is alive and being hidden in the North, and it seems to be common knowledge that Bolton killed Robb Stark which means Littlefinger probably knows the North wants to get rid of him - they just need a Stark to rally behind.  With the Lannisters weak in Kings Landing and Cersi focused on the Tyrell's and Dorne - now is the time to manipulate the North and I'm sure Littlefinger has a plan. 

 

Rather or not that plan is good for Sansa is another matter - but I wouldn't at all be surprised if he intended to put Sansa back in Winterfell, kill Bolton, and then marry Sansa himself before it's all over.

[SeanC]

 don't recall exactly, but didn't Sansa and Theon (Turner and Allen) share some screen time in season 1 before half the Starks headed to King's Landing?  If so, the actor wouldn't be new to Allen.

He means an actor new to the storyline.  Turner and Allen were both in the Winterfell courtyard scene, but they did not interact or really "work together" in any meaningful sense.

 

Everything about these interviews points to Sansa being a damsel in distress again.

Edited April 16, 2015 by SeanC

[SeanC]

I'm confused - do we have spoilers saying Littlefinger is taking Sansa to Winterfell to marry Bolton?  If so, I'm not sure I mind and I'm not 100% positive he would rape her (unless we have those spoilers as well?). 

We know that Sansa is going to Winterfell from the trailers.  We know there's a marriage at Winterfell, per Michael McElhatton.  And we know that there's a new main character joining the storyline, and that Ramsay gets a new plaything, who he horrifically abuses.  It's all quite clear that Sansa is getting Jeyne Poole's plot, more or less unchanged.

[nksarmi]

We know that Sansa is going to Winterfell from the trailers.  We know there's a marriage at Winterfell, per Michael McElhatton.  And we know that there's a new main character joining the storyline, and that Ramsay gets a new plaything, who he horrifically abuses.  It's all quite clear that Sansa is getting Jeyne Poole's plot, more or less unchanged.

Thanks - was looking for a spoilers thread and couldn't really find one.  While it will suck to see them hurt Sansa, it will have way more impact on the audience than fake Ayra since I doubt many people even remember Jeyne Poole. And frankly, I'd like to see Sansa find some wolf in her and kill the bastard.

 

But honestly, I've wondered for awhile if Sansa's wolf dying so early and the fact that she shows no warg abilities didn't somehow mean something.  Sansa seems the least like her siblings and the least like a Stark of all of them. I'd be impressed if the show somehow turned her around and made her a hero in Winterfell even if she has to take some abuse first.

[SeanC]

And frankly, I'd like to see Sansa find some wolf in her and kill the bastard.

 

But honestly, I've wondered for awhile if Sansa's wolf dying so early and the fact that she shows no warg abilities didn't somehow mean something.  Sansa seems the least like her siblings and the least like a Stark of all of them. I'd be impressed if the show somehow turned her around and made her a hero in Winterfell even if she has to take some abuse first.

Iwan Rheon has given indications that he'll be in season 6.  There's been nothing to suggest Sansa's going to be doing anything other what Jeyne Poole did.

 

The whole "least like a Stark" thing is one of those ideas that I really dislike.  There's no one way to be a Stark -- all the kids are different (it's especially the case when people treat Ned as the paragon of Stark-ness, when we know his siblings Brandon and Lyanna were nothing like him).  Sansa definitely started out as the person who was the least interested in aspects of Northern culture, but one of the main themes of her story is her increasing attachment to that stuff.

[Hecate7]

It would be funny if Sansa was Cat's "turn about is fair play" baby.

 

Females pretty much have to marry. That's their thing. It's not like she's Queen of Westeros. She's not even Sansa Stark right now. It makes way more sense for a TV show to have Sansa, a character we already know and care about, pretend to be Arya and marry Ramsey Bolton and do the Jeyne Poole plot, than to bring in another girl about whom we don't much care, to do it.

 

It also makes sense from Sansa's perspective. She can't openly declare herself Sansa Stark, heir to Winterfell, without prompting assassins and arrests from people in Cersei's hire, (and by now the North is actually probably crawling with them, considering that Cersei is hunting Sansa. Where would YOU look for Sansa Stark if you were Cersei? The North, of course). But she CAN claim to be Arya. why not? She's got dark brown hair now, and nobody's seen Arya in awhile. They'd believe she could have gotten tall and unrecognizable.

 

And by marrying Ramsey she's lady of Winterfell. That's plenty of motivation for her to go along with it. She's not to know, any more than Theon was when Ramsey "rescued" him, that Ramsey is a monster. But having Ramsey suddenly NOT be all rapey and torturey, just because Sansa's here, now THAT would not make any sense at all.

Edited April 17, 2015 by Hecate7

[Lady S.]

I don't recall exactly, but didn't Sansa and Theon (Turner and Allen) share some screen time in season 1 before half the Starks headed to King's Landing?  If so, the actor wouldn't be new to Allen.

I don't think he and Robb laughing when Arya threw food on Sansa's dress really counts. He's not saying the character is someone Theon's never met before, but he and Sophie really haven't worked together onscreen, Kit would probably say the same thing if she turned up at the Wall, since there was never any Jon/Sansa in the pilot either. It also says the actor is a major character. There's really no one else it could be. 

 

There's no reason Sansa needs to be in Winterfell with Ramsay to rally the northerners to a Stark. It would make a lot more sense to rally them by traveling throughout the North. I hate to offer anything approaching praise to Littlefinger but there's no way I believe he'd ever give his precious Cat 2.0 over to a family known for murdering Starks and skinning human beings, that's entirely different from offering her to Harry the Heir. 

 

I can only prey Iwan is lying about Ramsay's survival the way Esme Bianco and the three who bit it in the Red Wedding had to lie about their characters' survival during season three press. Why on earth would Ramsay not rape her? Whatever tenderness he may share with Myranda would have to be based on her being his psycho hunting buddy.

[mledawn]

If/when she goes back to Winterfell, it hasn't been THAT long - someone would recognise her, would they not? She's the daughter of Ned Stark, Lord of Winterfell. I just can't imagine her not being recognised. Although, I guess who would be there to recognise her is the question.

[Domenicholas]

It might be a bit of a drastic change in the show, but, assuming Ramsay marries and rapes Sansa (it would be OOC if he didn't), could D&D go with a pregnancy storyline if it mirrors something that will happen in the books?

[SeanC]

I don't understand all the fuss.

Rewriting a main character's story to include brutal sexual assault, as if she's interchangeable with a very minor character, and turning her into a victim that needs to be rescued yet again, is a rather obvious cause of "fuss".

[Mya Stone]

Two things: 

1. I don't see any reason to overreact as of yet, as we haven't seen anything play out on screen. If/when we do, I can only imagine it will be an even more passionately discussed topic. With that said...

2. Speculation is fine, but being dismissive/attacking other posters for not agreeing with your stance is not. 

[Paradigm14]

I'm incredulous about the idea that LF or Sansa would want to go anywhere near the Boltons. I mean they flay people. What is supposed to protect her if she goes there? 

[GreyBunny]

Tyrion is dead and the Lannisters are falling apart so Roose no longer has protection.  Littlefinger can fill that gap.  By bringing in Sansa, he can get the relatively fresh forces of the Vale to support Bolton.  If Ramsay hurts Sansa, Littefinger can turn the Vale against Roose.  Between Stannis and the Vale, Roose has no chance so he and his son have to remain on their best behavior where Sansa is concerned in order to maintain their alliance with the Vale.

 

At least that's what I'm hoping will happen. I don't want Sansa to be the next revolving door damsel in distress rape victim.

Edited April 17, 2015 by GreyBunny

[Hecate7]

If/when she goes back to Winterfell, it hasn't been THAT long - someone would recognise her, would they not? She's the daughter of Ned Stark, Lord of Winterfell. I just can't imagine her not being recognised. Although, I guess who would be there to recognise her is the question.

 

That is the question. That's what I keep saying--most of the people who ever saw the Stark family are dead. The ones who are still alive wouldn't really care which sister she is, or if she's even a Stark at all.

[Advance35]

That is the question. That's what I keep saying--most of the people who ever saw the Stark family are dead. The ones who are still alive wouldn't really care which sister she is, or if she's even a Stark at all.

 

Didn't the show display everyone dead at the end of Season 2.  Bran and his crew were the only people left alive weren't they? 

 

Roose, Ramsay, Theon, Myranda, Fat Walda, Littlefinger, that cast of characters screams trial by fire.   If Sansa makes it she will be definitely be a force to be reckoned with.  Though I'm going to miss seeing her around the splendor and beauty of Kings Landing.

[seacliffsal]

So, I had a thought-would it make sense if Nymeria (sp) and her pack have a role in helping/saving Sansa?  Maybe replace the 'saving' of LS with that of Sansa as well as restoring a direwolf with a Stark.  Could be interesting that Lady was sacrificed for Nymeria and Nymeria would protect Sansa.  It could also bind the Northerners more strongly to Sansa as she would be connected directly with the signal of the Starks.

 

Probably not, but I've always been more of a fan of the direwolves than the dragons (why yes, I am strange like that) and so would like to see them more integrated within the storylines.

[nksarmi]

The Starks should still have allies in the North, right? Just not at Winterfell.  I don't think anyone BUT Bolton would recognize Sansa as Sansa.  However, I'm not sure why not proclaim her Sansa Stark - Cersi be damned. Littlefinger can proclaim her innocent of Tyrion's crimes and say he got Sansa out of the city because he heard rumors and feared for her safety.  Cersi is about to be put on trial for her life - she hardly has the power to go after Sansa.

 

Besides, the dynamic on the show is just so different for the Lannisters than in the books right now.  Since they dropped the plot with Jamie winning peace in the Riverlands and Catlyn's brother being hostage at Casterly Rock - the Lannisters don't seem to have much power or influence in the North.  Kevin doesn't seem like he is going to be strong enough to fill his brother's shoes like he was in the books and now Stannis has a very strong presence at the Wall. Futhermore, Bolton killing Robb appears to be pubic knowledge so I don't know how safe he is as Warden of the North with Stannis breathing down his neck and the Lannisters falling apart.

 

Furthermore, since I assume they are going to do something with Brie and Pod - I can't believe they could marry Sansa off as either herself OR Ayra without Brie heading straight to Winterfell to check on her. I imagine that would put some damper on the bastard's abuse.

[Shanna]

God I hope you're wrong about that. Not just as a Sansa fan but because as you said the Northern plot in ADWD was a highlight in a otherwise disappointing book, and I for one was really looking forward to Frey Pie, and Roose Bolton starting to realize he signed his own death warrant with the Red Wedding.

I was already annoyed they cut the mance part (because wildings and manderlys randomly offing boltons all over the place was pretty much the best).

I seriously hope they had at least some damn sense and make this about Sansa getting revenge and not Sansa just taking Jeynes place because that would be just awful.

If/when she goes back to Winterfell, it hasn't been THAT long - someone would recognise her, would they not? She's the daughter of Ned Stark, Lord of Winterfell. I just can't imagine her not being recognised. Although, I guess who would be there to recognise her is the question.

Part of this is Sophie, because she is SO tall, but I can't take seriously the idea that people wouldn't figure it out if anyone had ever seen her before. Not in the vale because they weren't expecting Sansa to be there but in winterfell peoples brains would naturally go that way. I definitely can't see anyone confusing her for arya, no matter how long she's been missing. Of course in the books I thought they were all pretty obvious that nobody actually thought Jeyne was arya, or they would never have let her marry a Bolton and take the abuse.

Also when the plot was about arya it made more sense that people didn't know what she might look like. But tons of people saw Sansa in kings landing.

As for needing the impact of Sansa being abused...I hated theon and I could not even watch his scenes with Ramsey at a certain point. I don't know if I can deal with those applied to a stark. Now if they want to do something like they get married and immediately murder Ramsey to death and escape? Before a rape or torture? That would be ok.

Edited April 17, 2015 by Shanna

[Danny Franks]

Yeah, if Sansa gets raped, I'm done. Sorry, I'm just not interested in watching teenage girls get sexually assaulted, no matter how great the story might be. And it would just say far too much about the attitudes of the writers, to imagine that one helpless woman can be replaced by another, equally victimised. Not only that, but it would be a complete ruination of everything Sansa has been building towards, both in the books and on the show. 'You thought you were learning and finally figuring things out? LOL! Dog rape!'

 

The North was the best-written plot in ADWD and I've been looking forward to it for years. Now it seems the showrunners have cut the focus on Theon, the Northern lords' support for the Starks, Manderly's revenge, and the increasing tension at Winterfell with the Boltons slowly starting to lose control (which will hardly be possible if the only named characters inside are Ramsay's two powerless playthings). The key thing about the plot that they wanted to keep was marital rape, which was already its worst part and seemed like GRRM trying to see how he could outdo previous abuses with even worse torture porn. Interviews and spoilers truly make it sound like the show's version will be silent Theon in the background while Sansa is raped until it's time for him to grab Sansa, a helpless victim again, and jump. Nothing is achieved, not even the background progress Manderly was able to make on his revenge. But won't it be shocking and edgy and awesome that a Bolton gets to rape Sansa at Winterfell!

 

 

All of this. Cutting most of what was actually good about ADWD so they can focus more time on disgusting the audience with absurdly revolting villainy is just not what I would want from any show. If they've gone down that road, then I would sadly conclude that the writers have decided that piling on shock after shock to ensure people keep talking is more important to them than a coherent, satisfactory, fulfilling narrative experience.

 

I was genuinely moved when I read the Northern sections of ADWD. I got a lump in my throat when the men of the mountain clans said that they would go to Winterfell and fight for Stannis "to save Ned's girl", or for when little Wylla Manderley openly talked of how she loved the Starks, or when Wyman Manderley revealed his hand. Sacrificing that sort of emotional resonance for more gore porn would be too sad for words.

 

I've long since written Ramsay Bolton off as Martin's attempt to just be as disgusting as he possibly could be, and it seems like Benioff and Weiss might be trying to one-up him by redirecting all of that vileness onto a character that people actually care about.

Edited April 17, 2015 by Danny Franks

[Hecate7]

I was already annoyed they cut the mance part (because wildings and manderlys randomly offing boltons all over the place was pretty much the best).

I seriously hope they had at least some damn sense and make this about Sansa getting revenge and not Sansa just taking Jeynes place because that would be just awful.

Part of this is Sophie, because she is SO tall, but I can't take seriously the idea that people wouldn't figure it out if anyone had ever seen her before. Not in the vale because they weren't expecting Sansa to be there but in winterfell peoples brains would naturally go that way. I definitely can't see anyone confusing her for arya, no matter how long she's been missing. Of course in the books I thought they were all pretty obvious that nobody actually thought Jeyne was arya, or they would never have let her marry a Bolton and take the abuse.

Also when the plot was about arya it made more sense that people didn't know what she might look like. But tons of people saw Sansa in kings landing.

 

But that's just it. Name someone at Winterfell now, who has ever seen Sansa or Arya. Name anybody in the North who ever actually got a good, close look at either of the girls.

 

Nobody cared whether Jeyne was really Arya, but the message loud and clear was that if Arya had been available, it WOULD have been her. And also that the only reason people were settling for Arya was that nobody knew where Sansa was.

 

Also, the characters haven't been watching the show. None of them have ever seen any closeups of Maisie Williams. None of them saw her even once a month--yearly might even be stretching it. Same with Sansa. Nobody ever saw a closeup picture of her, either. What they might have seen, is a little girl with dark brown hair running around in the distance, or a girl with bright red hair sitting or walking. So, this girl with dark brown hair really is close enough. They may have heard stories that one of the girls looked more like Ned, and one looked more like Catelyn, but how many people alive at the castle, or in the North, have ever seen Ned or Catelyn?

 

Most people who ever saw Catelyn died either at King's Landing in the purge, or at the Red Wedding, or on the battlefield, or were put to death under Theon or Ramsey. The Bolton colors are flying at Winterfell. There's only one person in that castle who knows what the Starks looked like, and he's not going to tell.

[Shanna]

There were tourneys and other things at kings landing before Ned died. There are people who've been in kings landing and fled like brienne and the hound. Sansa is just far more conspicuous than arya was due to her age, status and length of time in kings landing.

[nksarmi]

I don't know - do we know that everything has been cut from the Northern plot?  I assume Rickon is still out there being sheltered and protected by someone. 

 

I think the North - of all people - will believe that Cersi's children are bastards and that Stannis is the rightful heir.  I think Catherine made a big mistake by not recommending that her son back the man her dead husband backed - Robb Stark and Stannis would have made strong allies in the war of 5 kings.  But the North is a place where they believe there is a reason for that Wall - where they fear whitewalkers and knowing Stannis is there trying to protect them should make the North sympathetic to him.  All he has to do is get rid of the Boltons and restore the Starks to Winterfell.

 

With that said and knowing Brie's story is probably going to tie to protecting Sansa - I'm not sure how much abuse the EP's plan to visit on her.  She isn't Cersi - she is a character that is either very sympathetic or at least not hated.  For example, I don't like her very much - I think she is a fool who places her trust in the wrong people much like her mother did.  But I don't she is evil or want to see her suffer.  I suspect the EP's will put her in a bad place, but there will be people there to help her besides LF.  The real question is who will she choose to trust because in my opinion - her instincts have not been very good in that area to date.

[Ripley68]

For some reason, I just have never bought that Sansa was getting all smart and political.  I don't know why, I think I've never got over her shallowness and stupidity at Kings Landing.

[Happy Harpy]

I think her "smartening-up" happened too fast on the show. Maybe it was bound to happen with the merging/condensing/accelerating storylines thingy, and I know that  an internal/psychological evolution isn't always easy to translate onscreen, but I think that they didn't show enough (if at all) that Sansa understood the manipulations around her. I did see her learn to protect herself by playing possum, but I didn't get the feeling that she went farther.

She was still, imo, an unaware pawn in the Tyrells and Lannisters marry-the-northerm-womb challenge at the end of season 3, then reeling from the Red Wedding/in mourning with seemingly no interest in her surroundings, just days before the Purple Wedding and her escape. That's why, although I welcomed the change, it came out of the blue for me. It felt more of a "because books" than a real organic progression during the show, for me.

Edited April 18, 2015 by Happy Harpy

[benteen]

I don't know - do we know that everything has been cut from the Northern plot?  I assume Rickon is still out there being sheltered and protected by someone. 

 

I think the North - of all people - will believe that Cersi's children are bastards and that Stannis is the rightful heir.  I think Catherine made a big mistake by not recommending that her son back the man her dead husband backed - Robb Stark and Stannis would have made strong allies in the war of 5 kings.  But the North is a place where they believe there is a reason for that Wall - where they fear whitewalkers and knowing Stannis is there trying to protect them should make the North sympathetic to him.  All he has to do is get rid of the Boltons and restore the Starks to Winterfell.

 

With that said and knowing Brie's story is probably going to tie to protecting Sansa - I'm not sure how much abuse the EP's plan to visit on her.  She isn't Cersi - she is a character that is either very sympathetic or at least not hated.  For example, I don't like her very much - I think she is a fool who places her trust in the wrong people much like her mother did.  But I don't she is evil or want to see her suffer.  I suspect the EP's will put her in a bad place, but there will be people there to help her besides LF.  The real question is who will she choose to trust because in my opinion - her instincts have not been very good in that area to date.

 

I think it Robb had known about the incest issue earlier, he would have backed Stannis.  I agree that would have been a great partnership as long as Stannis didn't try to shove the Red God down their throats.  If he did that, the North would have pushed back forcefully.

[Hecate7]

There were tourneys and other things at kings landing before Ned died. There are people who've been in kings landing and fled like brienne and the hound. Sansa is just far more conspicuous than arya was due to her age, status and length of time in kings landing.

 

Yes, there were. And how close do you think anyone ever got to Sansa or Arya at those tourneys? Go to one at a Renaissance Festival. You're going to be the width of the Downs away from the hosts, or you'll have your back to them. Either way, you're not really looking at little girls.

 

Moreover, as I keep saying, people who know what Sansa and Arya looked like, are either dead, or many, many miles from King's Landing. These characters are not omniscient. Witness the way Sansa went past, while Brienne moped and sharpened her sword and did not look up and see her. Brienne has seen Sansa, but probably wouldn't recognize her now. It was quick and from a distance. She'd recognize Arya, and that the girl being wed to Ramsey doesn't look like her, but what are the odds of Brienne going to Winterfell? And if she does, what are the odds of the Boltons not killing her on sight? Remember, their flunky never did get his sapphires.

[WearyTraveler]

I think Pod would recognize Sansa if he saw her again.  When he was Tyrion's squire he saw her several times in court, up close.  Also, I think that if Brienne were to go North, they could have her scene in the books where she kills Vargo Hoat and all the guys that held her and Jamie prisoner, like she did in the books.  It would be the same outcome without her trip to the crab holdfast.

 

I think the show doesn't give the "Sansa undercover" plot as much importance as the books do because she did reveal herself to the Lords of the Vale on the show.  They just might have her reveal herself as Sansa Stark to the Boltons.  Cersei's lines by Tywin's body in the Sept are probably meant to signal that Westerosi people see House Lannister as weak now that Tywin is no longer there to spearhead it and Tyrion, the cunning one, is on the run.  I think show Roose is probably very concerned about his position right now and might accept, even welcome, with open arms, Sansa Stark to solidify his position in the North.

[Shanna]

Hecate I think we are going to have to agree to disagree with this one. Sansa was on the dais for joffreys wedding. She publicly married Tyrion. She got a rose from Laurus at a tourney. She was going to marry the prince an then she was a famous traitors child and she lived in kings landing for years. She is 9 feet tall. There are people in the kingdom not dead and not in kings landing who know what she looks like.

If brienne or pod had seen her they would have recogniEd her. Ditto the hound. There are likely lots of non important characters who would recognize her as well. She's not arya.

Edited April 19, 2015 by Shanna

[loki567]

I just can't believe that after what happened last year, they'd jump back into these waters with a Sansa rape scene. What in the world would be going D&D's minds? And especially if that interview from Alfie is anything to go by, the scene will be framed from THEON'S pov. It would be legitimately disgusting and they would catch seven kinds of hell for it. It would massively eclipse the Cersei/Jaime controversy. 

[Hecate7]

Hecate I think we are going to have to agree to disagree with this one. Sansa was on the dais for joffreys wedding. She publicly married Tyrion. She got a rose from Laurus at a tourney. She was going to marry the prince an then she was a famous traitors child and she lived in kings landing for years. She is 9 feet tall. There are people in the kingdom not dead and not in kings landing who know what she looks like.

If brienne or pod had seen her they would have recogniEd her. Ditto the hound. There are likely lots of non important characters who would recognize her as well. She's not arya.

 

Joffrey's wedding was in King's Landing. How does it make a difference in the North? It's not like there were photographers there. Yes, she's tall, but coloring one's hair is not common practice and so no one questions hair color the way we do nowadays. A tall dark girl will not automatically be assumed to be a tall redhead who colored her hair.

 

And I am not so sure that Brienne or Poe would have recognized her in her black getup with her dark hair, looking just like her "uncle." They saw her once, from a distance. They did not get that close to the dais. The Hound would most likely recognize her, but he's not available.

 

I only found the Cersei/Jaime rape controversial because it was insanely OOC for both of them. It would not be OOC for any of these characters. It would resemble the books, and it would make way more sense to try to pass Sansa off as her own sister, than to find some random girl who also didn't look much like Arya, and pass her off as Arya.

[benteen]

Hecate I think we are going to have to agree to disagree with this one. Sansa was on the dais for joffreys wedding. She publicly married Tyrion. She got a rose from Laurus at a tourney. She was going to marry the prince an then she was a famous traitors child and she lived in kings landing for years. She is 9 feet tall. There are people in the kingdom not dead and not in kings landing who know what she looks like.

If brienne or pod had seen her they would have recogniEd her. Ditto the hound. There are likely lots of non important characters who would recognize her as well. She's not arya.

 

Brienne did go up to Joffrey and Sansa to offer her congratulations during the wedding feast, correct?  She would recognize Sansa if she saw her.

[Premislaus]

What's with the INSANE pre-mature condemnation of things that haven't happened yet that's all over this thread?  I'm pretty sure Sansa's not getting Jeyne Pool treatment. According to Sophie Turner's pre-season interviews, the intensity of her scenes/plot this season is 6/10 (10/10 was Red Wedding IIRC). She was also asked about potential sex scenes/nudity and responded that D&D would probably be uncomfortable with that "because they still see me as a 13 y.o. girl". 

 

If I were to guess, I would say the main target for Ramsey's sadism is going to be his soon-to-be-former GF Myranda. Sansa might also suffer somehow but again it will be "6/10" stuff not a freaking dog rape.

[sunflower]

 

It would resemble the books, and it would make way more sense to try to pass Sansa off as her own sister, than to find some random girl who also didn't look much like Arya, and pass her off as Arya.

 

This is actually a reasonable change in the story tying Sansa/Littlefinger to the Boltons and Winterfell.  However, Sansa's been through so much, if she gets raped now?  Of course, tragedy is high in this show, but I feel it would be easier to do this in the books than the show.  This possible rape happening will take over the conversation and the show through the end of the season.  And, as said upthread, after the Jamie/Cersei "rape" and rapes of random women beyond the Wall last year, it would seem overkill.

Edited April 19, 2015 by sunflower

[WearyTraveler]

What's with the INSANE pre-mature condemnation of things that haven't happened yet that's all over this thread?  

 

Word!  I think it is getting a bit overheated for something that may or may not happen.

[loki567]

What's with the INSANE pre-mature condemnation of things that haven't happened yet that's all over this thread?  I'm pretty sure Sansa's not getting Jeyne Pool treatment. According to Sophie Turner's pre-season interviews, the intensity of her scenes/plot this season is 6/10 (10/10 was Red Wedding IIRC). She was also asked about potential sex scenes/nudity and responded that D&D would probably be uncomfortable with that "because they still see me as a 13 y.o. girl". 

 

If I were to guess, I would say the main target for Ramsey's sadism is going to be his soon-to-be-former GF Myranda. Sansa might also suffer somehow but again it will be "6/10" stuff not a freaking dog rape.

 

Insane? These writers have added multiple scenes of sexual assault that didn't exist in the books. They've chopped away a lot of the complexity of female characters. They've turned countless number of naked women into furniture. They've earned zero leeway when it comes to something like this. 

 

It's fair to ask how do we know if it's Sansa, but Alfie's interview said it was a horrifying scene involving Ramsey, Theon, and a character new to the storyline. Considering what we know of the Jeyne storyline, considering that we know that Sansa's engaged to Ramsey, It's a fair jump to make. Even if it isn't "dog rape." 

Edited April 19, 2015 by loki567

[Premislaus]

And you think that would be a "6/10" scene for Sophie Turner?

[sunflower]

 

And you think that would be a "6/10" scene for Sophie Turner?

 

Didn't ST indicate a 6/10 in comparison to the Red Wedding being the 10?  The Red Wedding was not only the deaths of Sansa's brother and mother, but a massacre of the Stark's bannermen, etc.  The rape of one of the main characters by the sadistic Ramsey at a 6/10 makes sense on that scale in a world where rape is common. 

 

Also, it's possible that ST was trying not to give it away and a 6 seemed fair. 

[Meredith Quill]

We've allowed this conversation to go on in the hopes you would all self course-correct eventually, but as things seem to be getting heated now:

 

If you want to talk about what may happen during S5 please take it to the S5 speculation topic. This topic is specifically for changes that have already happened on the show.

 

Thanks.

[benteen]

Tonight's episode...Cersei's Small Council.

 

So we see Mace is going to be both Master of Ships and Master of Coin.  Pycelle of course is Grand Maester and Qyburn is Master of Whisperers.  Is anyone going to serve as Hand of the King this season?  Kevan mentions he's returning to Casterly Rok so it's very possible that like in the books, he will return to assume leadership after Cersei's arrest.  So do you think we'll still get Varys returning to Westeros and murdering him?  I would assume Kevan will be back...otherwise, Pycelle of all people might be the one who Varys murders alone.  It's mentioned in the book him and Harys Swift are in charge until Kevan returns.  I remember discussing this on the old TWOP board.  Is it possible that he steps up as he's clearly disgusted with Qyburn and like in the book, is not getting along with Cersei.  Just some wondering on my part...