Television Vs. Book: Why'd They Make [Spoiler] Such A [Spoiler]?

[Avaleigh]

When you think your way through it, no one super important has died yet. With the exception of Ned, but Ned is the Obi-Wan Kenobi Death in AGOT. He needs to die for the younger protagonists to step into the story. Martin just does a really good job of putting him in the center of all the action to start off so not a lot of people see it coming.

 

 

I feel like the idea that GRRM is capable of killing any character is grossly overstated. The main deaths that I found to be surprising were Catelyn's (I figured she'd be a hostage.), Renly, Joffrey, and maybe Quentyn. I too I will change my mind about this though if Jon does indeed turn out to be dead.

 

If one of the surviving Stark kids is killed I'll be super shocked. I just don't see it happening. Maybe, maybe Arya could die somewhere in the last chapters of the final book but I doubt it. The others seem as safe as can be in terms of thinking that they're going to be alive towards the end. 

 

It isn't that I don't see major characters eventually dying, I do, but I don't agree with the idea that it could be anyone or that the "good" characters are more at risk than the "bad" characters. Any time I see an Unsullied person whine about how there's no point in watching the show because the bad guys always win, I can't help but roll my eyes a little because I couldn't disagree more. It's so obvious to me that the "bad" characters are being set up for their downfalls they just haven't all happened yet. And some of them have happened. Tywin, Joffrey, the Mountain, the Tickler, the Freys that were put in the pie, the slavers, Aerys II, etc. Then we have all of the people like Jaime, Theon, and Cersei who've had bad shit happen to them and have plenty more headed their way. Does anyone really think that Littlefinger isn't going to get his comeuppance? I don't know why anyone would think he wouldn't whether or not they've read the books. Ramsay? This guy practically has a sign on his head that says "Dead Man Walking and It'll Be Gruesome". 

[ElizaD]

The deaths of Ned, Cat and Robb were shocking even if they could be explained (the parents, the POVless kid). But after AFFC/ADWD, it's pretty clear that the others will keep on beating the odds until the grand finale.

 

IMO, the bad guys do get bigger wins than the good guys in this series. Sure, Cersei, Littlefinger, and allies are headed for their downfalls. But almost everyone who's decent has been broken inside. Reputations have been ruined by lies, with no sign of rehabilitation that could overcome the damage that's been done. And how big will the villains' downfalls even be? Will Littlefinger's end be as quick as Joffrey's and leave his crimes still unknown to the public? Characters like Tywin and Joffrey died at the height of their power and escaped the suffering and loss of prestige that was dealt to their victims: Joffrey epitomizes the suckiness of Westeros with his karmic reward of a quick death, grand funeral and posthumous praise vs. the slaughter of unarmed guests, the desecration of their bodies and the mockery of their memory at the Red Wedding. Jaime whines about how much the Lannisters have lost in the war and then proceeds to congratulate himself for his honor after he's delivered Riverrun to the Freys as their reward for the RW. The Mountain died but he got to kill Elia's brother as his last act after a lifetime of being protected from the consequences of his crimes, and so on. The bad guys tend to be killed by other assholes for reasons that have nothing to do with justice, they suffer less than their victims did and their houses get to keep their ill-gotten gains (the Freys and Boltons are the only ones who seem 100% doomed as lords, but there are so many Freys that they'll have plenty of survivors despite losing the Twins; no house has been introduced as a viable alternative to the Lannisters in the West, so the atrocities of Tywin and his twins won't cause them to lose the Rock). The bad guys keep on winning if they're compared to the state of their deposed, slandered victims, even if they don't get away with zero losses like Jaime laments he hasn't done. I'm going to follow this series until the end because I'm hooked, but I do wish GRRM would dish out his creative horrors more evenly, or balance them with more than one instance of minor karmic justice for every five years (Slynt's execution, the kill in the Mercy preview chapter).

 

Even though a Stark will have Winterfell when the series ends and King's Landing will have a better ruler (whoever it turns out to be), there's little sense of genuine hope for the future in ASOIAF. It's just about doing what has to be done, surviving and learning to kill others before they kill you. So in that sense, this series will end with the bad guys winning even if they'll be dead in the end: the good guys will merely have regained what was taken from them while suffering irreparable losses on the way. The Starks, Dany and Tyrion are the main characters and they're miserable. Some are bigger wrecks than others (Jon is better off emotionally than Arya or Tyrion, though who knows what his betrayal and resurrection will do to him), but they mostly come across as though they've had the capacity for joy beaten out of them. Maybe part of that is due to the POV structure. Because the number of POVs is limited, characters become isolated in different locations/plots. When terrible shit happens, they don't get to comfort each other and fight the world together. Genuine friendships and romances are scarce: the Starks believe the rest of their family has been killed, Jaime and Tyrion/Cersei were reunited only to become estranged, Dany's thing with the dodgy Daario is all about lust. As annoying as shipping can get, I guess in a strange way ASOIAF has made me appreciate romance in fantasy. It shows that life goes on for the character and that if they lose their family they can still form new and meaningful relationships. Also lacking: positive hell yeah! moments. There are plenty of twists but not a lot of stuff that shows a main character in charge. I think that's why scenes like Dracarys and Sansa's Maleficent walk were so popular with viewers. The first was a classic hell yeah, the second a sign that Sansa finally got to stop being all victim all the time. But those moments tend to be drowned out by the general misery and powerlessness when it's one shock and setback after another. The plot moves onward, not really upward. That's why I fully expect a bittersweet ending where the sweet is the death of Littlefinger/Walder Frey/all the other big villains and the bitter is the tedium of life for the emotionally damaged survivors who have lands, titles and duties but no happiness.

[Winnief]

I have to agree with a lot of what ElizaD said; the problem is that the villains comeuppance too often fails to satisfy, (i.e. Tywin not living long enough to see things fall apart in front of him or learn the truth about White Walkers and Dragons,) and we don't see enough triumphant moments for the heroes.  I think the show actually has tried to improve on that some with Dracarys, Sansa's Mockingjay moment, and of course Jon's victories in the North this season, and Grenn's sacrifice.  Now maybe the books were planning on some joyful/tearful reunions in the future but that hasn't happened yet and as Eliza notes its a problem that none of the Starks have formed new relationships, (with the exception of Jon/Sam) to compensate for losses.  That's one reason why Arya comes across as a tiny psychopath and Sansa as being a classic case of disassociation disorder. 

 

Personally I've always theorized that the Stark bloodline may have been key to some kind of ancient treaty with the CotF, hence "there must always be a Stark at Winterfell" and thus their family's downfall is actually disastrous for all Seven Kingdoms...but what's the point if the people MOST responsible for hurting the Starks never get the chance to learn the true consequences of their crime?!?  (Man I would have KILLED to see Tywin's reaction to that!!!)  Ok, maybe that will still be part of Jaime's storyline but still five books of unrelenting tragedy is a bit much.  Maybe Martin's just saving it for AFTER the Big Reveal about Jon but I think we're all due some moments of if not exactly triumph/vengeance than at least some reason for hope.

 

And to be fair to the Unsullied, Avaleigh they *haven't* seen all the punishments you mentioned-as far as they know the Frey's are still enjoying lording it up at Riverrun for instance and of course the joy of Joffrey's death was ruined by Tyrion's arrest, kangaroo trial, and losing the Red Viper.  I hope that situation will be remedied next season though. 

[Constantinople]

When you think your way through it, no one super important has died yet.

 

Isn't that a bit of a chicken and egg thing?

[mac123x]

Ok, maybe that will still be part of Jaime's storyline but still five books of unrelenting tragedy is a bit much.

 

I agree with that whole-heartedly.  I think part of my problem with it is that I'm so used to the Three Act Structure, and it appears that we've been mired in the "protagonist's attempt to resolve the problem initiated by the first turning point, only to find him- or herself in ever worsening situations" part for 2000+ pages.  Based on the alleged 7 (or is it 8 now) number of books, things need to start moving towards Act 3 soon. 

 

I'm just not seeing much of "They must not only learn new skills but arrive at a higher sense of awareness of who they are and what they are capable of, in order to deal with their predicament, which in turn changes who they are. This is referred to as character development or a character arc. This cannot be achieved alone and they are usually aided and abetted by mentors and co-protagonists."

 

Arya seems in that stage, learning new murder skills.  I guess Sansa learning to be Littefinger Jr is also, and maybe Bran turning into a tree counts.  Jon learned and grew and was stabbed for it.  Dany is decidedly not learning how to be a ruler because few of the lessons she's learned in Meereen are translatable to a completely different culture in Westeros.

[elzin]

 

And to be fair to the Unsullied, Avaleigh they *haven't* seen all the punishments you mentioned-as far as they know the Frey's are still enjoying lording it up at Riverrun for instance

That's one of the things that bothers me most about no Lady Stoneheart.  Your blood seethes at Lannisters and Freys and Boltons, but Stoneheart (and the whole The North Remembers thing) gives you a tiny bit of justice... I say a tiny bit because Stoneheart justice is not true justice and is only satisfying in a REVENGE mindset. But you see that the "bad guys" aren't getting away with it entirely.  The season kind of ended on an "everything sucks for everyone" note, whereas after the book, I was left with my jaw dropped and a trickle of hope.

[Winnief]

I agree with that whole-heartedly.  I think part of my problem with it is that I'm so used to the Three Act Structure, and it appears that we've been mired in the "protagonist's attempt to resolve the problem initiated by the first turning point, only to find him- or herself in ever worsening situations" part for 2000+ pages.  Based on the alleged 7 (or is it 8 now) number of books, things need to start moving towards Act 3 soon.

 

I'm just not seeing much of "They must not only learn new skills but arrive at a higher sense of awareness of who they are and what they are capable of, in order to deal with their predicament, which in turn changes who they are. This is referred to as character development or a character arc. This cannot be achieved alone and they are usually aided and abetted by mentors and co-protagonists."

 

Arya seems in that stage, learning new murder skills.  I guess Sansa learning to be Littefinger Jr is also, and maybe Bran turning into a tree counts.  Jon learned and grew and was stabbed for it.  Dany is decidedly not learning how to be a ruler because few of the lessons she's learned in Meereen are translatable to a completely different culture in Westeros.

 

 

ITA.  I for one am kind of hoping that if/when Dany does get to Westeros she doesn't stay to rule but goes back to Essos or re-settles Valyria or something because she seems more like a creature of Essos to me than of Westeros at this point.  And poor Sansa seems trapped to be a pawn forever, in the books-hell they've actually improved that for the show with the "Dark Sansa" walk down the stairs.  Things go from bad to worse and occasionally some villains get theirs but I just haven't seen many signs of progress. 

[SeanC]

And poor Sansa seems trapped to be a pawn forever, in the books-hell they've actually improved that for the show with the "Dark Sansa" walk down the stairs. 

I really wouldn't call that an improvement.  GRRM's story is slow going, as a result of the publication schedule, but Sansa's development in the books is earned; in the show, it isn't. They cut basically all her post-S1 character development and then suddenly pushed her way, way ahead of where she is in the books with no setup.

[Brn2bwild]

Though I will give the show credit if it has Sansa react to the news that Ramsay Snow is in Winterfell and about to wed Arya.  In the books, she seemed so far removed from any news from the outside.

[SeanC]

Sansa on the show hasn't even acknowledged the "deaths" of Bran and Rickon, which happened two seasons ago.

[Maximum Taco]

Isn't that a bit of a chicken and egg thing?

 

Not really. No main character has been left with a dangling storyline. You can't say "If they stayed alive they could have become important." That's just arguing for eventualities that never were going to happen.

 

What I'm talking about is someone who has had a lot of time invested in them, has a definite story path, and just dies, without resolving their storyline.

 

The closest thing is Robb, and I would argue that Robb isn't really a main character, because the main characters (IMO) are POV characters (that doesn't mean that all the POV characters are main characters, just that all the main characters are POV characters.) The only main character to have died permanently is Ned, and his storyline wrapped up, cause he's the Obi-Wan (and also the Franz Ferdinand).

 

If Cat had died, that would've been one, but she only semi-died. If Jon dies at the end of ADWD, that's another. And both would have shocked me.

 

The only POV characters to die so far (IIRC) are Arys Oakheart and Quentyn Martell. Both of whom are not main characters IMO.

Edited January 17, 2015 by Maximum Taco

[benteen]

About deaths with karma, yeah, I remember actually being disappointed with Joffrey'd death.  Robb was killed before him but I was hoping he'd get the righteous justice death of being beheaded by a Stark or one of their allies for his crimes.  Ramsay Snow might escape this kind of death too.

 

As for the Mountain, although he killed Oberyn he did get the death he deserved.  Days of horrific pain and suffering for the pain and suffering he inflicted on his many victims.

 

Tywin didn't see his reputation turned to shit but died the death he deserved, killed by his son in an embarrassing way.  He got to see it coming at least.

 

I've said this before but the most fitting punishment for Littlefinger (which I'm positive will not happen) would be for him to be brought before Lady Stoneheart for his crimes.  Putting him in a situation where he couldn't talk himself out of it would likely cause him to piss himself in fear.

Edited January 18, 2015 by benteen

[Brn2bwild]

I'm hoping that one of Dany's dragons will end up cooking Ramsay alive and eating him from the legs up... one of the few deaths that is possibly worse than flaying.

[Winnief]

My guess is Ramsay will either die at the Battle of Winterfell OR fall prey to the White Walkers and be turned into a wight. 

 

As for Littlefinger, if the prophecy is right, then Sansa will be his downfall, and THAT my friends would be fitting. 

[Holmbo]

I agree with you ElizaD that the bad guys have gotten it better so far by comparison. The moral right now seems to be that showing compassion or keeping your word never has any good consequences. I hope that by the end this changes. Because I think realisticly the house acting decent would be the house that benefits in the long run. They are the one that bannermenn would want to follow and other houses would trust to strike deals with.

I do think that the stark house will be strong again by the end of the series. But I hope this happens because stark has been a honorable house. Not despite of it.

[John Potts]

Thee only characters I definitely want to die by series/book end are Littlefinger and Walder Frey, although I can entirely believe they'll both survive. Littlefnger might well end up the most powerful man in the Seven Kingdoms (I can't see him as King - he's just too far down the order of succession, even with a few judicious marriages and some discreet poisonings - but it's all too easy to imagine him as a Tywin-esque all powerful Hand). I can imagine "The Late Lord Frey" as the "Last Lord Frey", with all his (many) heirs gradually picked off by the Brotherhood and him under effective siege in his castle. I also want to see Ramsay dead, but I'm sure he's too psychotic to last without Roose to keep him under control (assuming he's dead, possibly at Ramsay's instigation by that point).

[SeanC]

No way does Littlefinger survive the series.  Walder Frey's best case scenario is that he dies of old age before his house is destroyed.

[benteen]

I hope Walder gets castrated with a rusty knife.  That would be the most fitting punishment for him.

[Constantinople]

I'm going with Walder Frey dies in flagrante

[Greta]

I wonder if Roslin Frey-Tully's baby makes it to Lord/Lady of Riverrun, which would frustratingly give Walder Frey something of the last (albeit gasping through cut throat) laugh. And I'm not entirely sure the baby is even Edmure's. Isn't it super convenient that floppy fish managed to knock up his bride on their (Red) wedding night?

 

OTOH, the whole purpose of that baby might be for Lady Stoneheart to kill it for being a Frey, reinforcing the idea that vengeance is bad, yo. The Freys I really want to make it through are Fat Walda (unlikely I know, given her My Stepson, My Serial Killer* situation) and Gatehouse Ami (more likely to keep on keeping on in her own special way).

 

*Hint: if someone wanted to make a GOT as Lifetime movie fanvid, starring Fat Walda, there would be at least one viewer!

Edited January 26, 2015 by Greta

[SeanC]

I wonder if Roslin Frey-Tully's baby makes it to Lord/Lady of Riverrun, which would frustratingly give Walder Frey something of the last (albeit gasping through cut throat) laugh. And I'm not entirely sure the baby is even Edmure's. Isn't it super convenient that floppy fish managed to knock up his bride on their (Red) wedding night?

The Tullys of Edmure's generation have a pretty strong track record in that regard.  Catelyn got pregnant on her wedding night, and Lysa got pregnant by Littlefinger seemingly on the first try.

[Maximum Taco]

The Tullys of Edmure's generation have a pretty strong track record in that regard.  Catelyn got pregnant on her wedding night, and Lysa got pregnant by Littlefinger seemingly on the first try.

 

Judging by Walder, and the Freys lengthy family tree, I'm sure the Freys are similarly very fertile.

 

It's not so surprising that Roslin got knocked up on the first try by Edmure.

Edited January 26, 2015 by Maximum Taco

[Winnief]

I have my doubts as to whether Roslin, the baby and Edmure survive.  There's been no mention of it on the show which seems ominous and in the books I couldn't help feeling there were too many people, (not just LSH but Emmon and Genna Frey or LF if he wants to make Sansa the rightful heir to Riverrun as well and add the Riverlands to her claims too,) for whom it would be convenient if neither Edmure or Roslin made it to CR alive.

Edited January 27, 2015 by Winnief

[SeanC]

I have my doubts as to whether Roslin, the baby and Edmure survive.  There's been no mention of it on the show which seems ominous and in the books I couldn't help feeling there were too many people, (not just LSH but Emmon and Genna Frey or LF if he wants to make Sansa the rightful heir to Riverrun as well and add the Riverlands to her claims too,) for whom it would be convenient if neither Edmure or Roslin made it to CR alive.

The show introduces things whenever they feel like it (there's been zero mention of the entire Stark/Tully side since the Red Wedding), but even if it's not in the show, I don't think that means anything, because the show isn't going to go into anywhere near as much detail as the books about what the postwar settlement looks like, etc., and Riverrun is the sort of thing they wouldn't pay much attention to.

[Winnief]

The show introduces things whenever they feel like it (there's been zero mention of the entire Stark/Tully side since the Red Wedding), but even if it's not in the show, I don't think that means anything, because the show isn't going to go into anywhere near as much detail as the books about what the postwar settlement looks like, etc., and Riverrun is the sort of thing they wouldn't pay much attention to.

 

 

Fair point.  It could be they're just waiting for the return on Blackfish to mention whatever's going on in Riverrun, (and I feel quite confident Blackfish *will* be seen again sometime.

[Holmbo]

The show introduces (or reintroduces) things when they become important to the plot. It's not like in the book where things can be teased and hinted at.

Right now it's established in the show that edmure is prisoner of the Frey's, blackfish is missing and Frey's are ruling the riverlands not doing a good job. This is where we are in the book as well and the show will come back to it when things are about to change.

[Advance35]

I'm in the midst of a re-read of ADWD and I'm going to be REALLY curious about what is and isn't incorporated into the Wall Storyline this season.   With everything Sam does to make Jon Lord Commander and the new additons to that arena it should be interesting.   My re-read has me intrigued by Stannis's party.   We've seen in the books that Melissandre has some ability but how far that extends has been left ambiguous.   I'm curious whether they will have anyone be superstitious about Shireen's greyscale.   Val makes it seem like it's a ticking time bomb during her conversations with Jon.    And I'm curious about "Patchface" the fool who keeps company with Little Shireen and Queen Selyse.   Melissandre is uneasy with him around and says she saw him in her flames, "surrounded by skulls with blood on his lips."  It was very chilling.

 

It's to the shows disadvantage that a lot of the scheming has shifted to the North.   I can understand why it's been problematic but a LOT of the intrigue is actually taking place in the North and the Riverlands and I don't think the show has established the players to convey that.   And with the cast more spread out than ever I question whether they will have the time needed this season.

[benteen]

Agreed.  A lot of the scheming goes to the North and the Riverlands but the showrunners have been obsessed with King's Landing, which starts to become less of a focal point in ADWD's.  There's not going to be a lot in the way of major characters left there this season.

[Advance35]

Saw the Season 5 Trailer and I have to say I think this season looks pretty good.   I'm a little bummed because the shots of Tommen and Margaery's wedding make it seem like Olenna won't be there.   Her cattiness to Cersei at the reception and at Tywin's funeral (which she probably won't be at either) were some of my favorite scenes in AFFC.

 

I'm guessing Olenna's "They'll never find what's left of you" is her talking to Littlefinger.   There were screen shots of him filming in Kings Landing this summer.    So it looks like the show may elaborate on the Tyrell/Alliance.   I'm thinking a stalemate scene where Olenna comments about how Cersei might react if she found out Sansa was in the Vale and who helped to hide her and LF countering with a whisper of whom really poisoned Joffrey.

 

Can't tell much about what Sansa's up to except that LF is trying to foster an appetite for revenge in her and it looked like that might have been a shot of Sansa taking a bath later in the trailer.

 

The Sand Snakes look awesome to me.   I wasn't wild about their costumes in the BTS photos but in motion they look interesting.

 

I also can't wait to get some elaboration on Lord Varys and what's he's after and what his goal is.   I figure things won't be so oblique considering the writers only have 20 episodes to tell this story.   It sounds like they've nixed Aegon and they are going with Varys plotting to help Danerys rise up all these years and his desire to have Tyrion continue to help to that end.

 

Can't wait.

[Avaleigh]

To me this also adds a lot of support that fAegon isn't the endgame as some people believe. If nothing else I'm happy of that.

 

Is there any reason Melisandre should be naked this season? 

 

Who is Margaery hugging? It doesn't look like Tommen but it's hard to tell. 

 

The Sand Snakes look like they might be fun. I had my doubts at first but I think I'm already being won over.

 

The locations look really good this year.

[Advance35]

I'm actually going to miss Fake!Aegon.  I've really become disenchanted with Dany's storyline in the books and in the show and I've got know investment in her getting the Iron Throne in the end.   Her getting the Iron Throne (for me) is going to be like Aegon getting, it.   A Johnny/Jane Come-Lately who pretty much let everyone else do the gut-work and is now nipping in to take the prize.   A great manuever to use in real life but in terms of this story it'll feel un-earned to me.   But Que Sera.

 

As for Melissandre.......Again my re-read has made me even more intrigued with what she's up to and how the Rhollor faith really is just another faction vying for control of the Iron Throne (as evidenced by Mel's original intent to get into the Court of Robert Baratheon).

 

And was Margaery hugging someone or was she leaning against a wall or statue of some kind.  I'm assuming that's her leaning against a statue or rock formation in her prison cell.   She doesn't look as bouncy or forced cheery like she normally does.    And I think ageing up Tommen might have been a mistake, that kid has a baby face but he still looks like he might be capable of consumation.   In the book the mere idea is ludicrous but in the show......

[Winnief]

Am glad they've decided to cut fAegon.  To me he just stole Dany's thunder in the books and Jon's as well by having a fake Targ heir show up before the REAL lost Targ heir was discovered.  And I ain't mourning Arianne either since my bet is she was just going to ruin herself on fAegon.

 

 This also confirms my suspicions that they won't bother having Dany make the return trip to the Dothraki sea but will after the Battle of Mereen probably have her start prepping to take the Seven Kingdoms thanks in part to Tyrion coming along to tell her the time is right and Westeros needs new leadership, so they'll at least set sail in Season 6, though I wouldn't be surprised if they made a couple stops along the way like say Braavos or Pentos to pick up the Golden Company too.

 

So LF is telling Dark Sansa to seek revenge...that could come back to haunt him if/when she ever learns the role he played in the Starks downfall. 

 

Arya's training in Braavos looks to be a lot of fun.

 

Now what is Melisandre gonna be up to at the Wall and will that help usher in (or at least foreshadow to the Unsullied) the Big Reveal?!?

[Constantinople]

Is there any reason Melisandre should be naked this season?

Shouldn't a fire priestess be hot?

[Avaleigh]

I specifically had shadowbabies on my mind lol, but yeah, I agree that she's supposed to be hot.

[SeanC]

Cutting Varys' own plot causes serious structural integrity problems for the plot, particularly in season 1, but it's pretty clear that D&D weren't really thinking about endgames when they wrote that season (not entirely unsurprisingly, but still).

[Skeeter22]

I've always thought that Aegon exists only to clear an easy path for Dany to ultimately swoop into Westeros. I figured he might be stuck doing the more unsavory tasks, like getting rid of Tommen, so that Dany can keep her hands clean. GRRM has been mostly unwilling to put Dany up against anything other than stock villains, so I wouldn't be surprised if he used Aegon as a human shield to protect Dany from opposing any fan favorites. I wonder how the show will handle her possibly having to confront some of the more popular show characters.

[ffaristocrat]

I'm thinking Sansa might take up the role of Lady Stoneheart.

[DigitalCount]

Well, to be honest, someone has to. This isn't a small issue, because I was thinking about it last night and wondering how on earth they could make it work without her. I mean, if they didn't want to pay Michelle Fairley for a largely voiceless part couldn't they have just hooded her? She doesn't even look like Cat at this point, and I was looking forward to making Schroedinger jokes. But it's a bit odd with what she sets in motion to say they can just cut it.

Furthermore, it's a bit galling to consider that they were okay with the mutineer story being a group of men sitting around raping and murdering, but it's super boring for Cat and the BwB to murder Freys, who had it coming? Exactly what are you saying about your show when you make that statement?

[SeanC]

I'm thinking Sansa might take up the role of Lady Stoneheart.

No, that doesn't remotely work, and Sansa has her own story.

[Carrie Ann]

No, that doesn't remotely work, and Sansa has her own story.

 

She does? What is it? Season 4 ended very close to where we left Sansa in the books, and anything much past that is speculation. If the producers ultimately see Lady S as a plot device, why couldn't they just slot Sansa into the position of executing those plot points? I personally doubt it, but as we know that they aren't planning to have Lady S on the show, someone has to fill the role at least as far as Brienne is concerned, I would think.

Edited January 30, 2015 by Carrie Ann

[benteen]

Good trailer.  I'm not sorry about Fake Aegon being eliminated, especially if it means speeding up Dany's storyline.  The only thing though, it seems like a lot of the chaos will be gone.  No Golden Company Invasion, the Iron Islanders are nowhere to be found, the Brotherhood without Banners is nowhere to be found, and a lot of the Northern aspects aren't there.  Where is the chaos going to come from, especially during Cersei's reign?  Is Loras going to get "injured" somewhere else?  I suppose the Faith Militant storyline will be ramped up and whatever is happening in Dorne.  And of course, Dany's storyline getting sped up.

 

Theon's face looks disturbing in the trailer, twisted and emaciated. 

 

I noticed a still of Jon, Davos, and Stannis.  Looking forward to that.  I was disappointed in ADWD that GRRM didn't have a scene between Jon and Davos.

[SeanC]

She does? What is it? Season 4 ended very close to where we left Sansa in the books, and anything much past that is speculation. If the producers ultimately see Lady S as a plot device, why couldn't they just slot Sansa into the position of executing those plot points? I personally doubt it, but as we know that they aren't planning to have Lady S on the show, someone has to fill the role at least as far as Brienne is concerned, I would think.

We don't know what it is, because the book hasn't been published.  But if they're cutting Stoneheart, they can just as easily cut that whole plotline, since it's centered around her and nobody else could replace the effect she has.  Note that Jaime's gone off to Dorne as well, instead of being in the Riverlands.

Edited January 30, 2015 by SeanC

[Constantinople]

Cutting Varys' own plot causes serious structural integrity problems for the plot, particularly in season 1, but it's pretty clear that D&D weren't really thinking about endgames when they wrote that season (not entirely unsurprisingly, but still).

 

I can think of a couple of incongruities.  I imagine there are more.

 

In Season 1, we're led to believe that Varys arranged the failed assassination of Daenerys by the "wine merchant".  That's an odd thing to do if you're specifically pro-Daenerys.  At the time, I hadn't read the books, so I wondered if perhaps Varys set-up the assassination so it would fail.  Perhaps they'll go that route.

 

Offhand, that leaves the question as to how Varys would know that Jorah Mormont would turn, but perhaps Varys has been bull shitting the council the whole time and Jorah was always in the Targ camp.  But in Season 4, before he was banished, Jorah acted as if he genuinely been working for the Baratheons at first.

 

Another issue is why support Daenerys in stead of Varys.  Varys was an asshole, but how could they now how Daenerys would develop.  Varys was already dead at the time of the failed assassination, so that could cause Varys to switch from Varys to Daenerys.  But I don't know how Varys would have enough time to find out about Vary's death and arrange for the assassination of Daenerys to fail, even with help from Illyrio.

 

In Season 4, we're led to believe that it was Varys who sent the copy of Jorah's Baratheon pardon to Barristan Selmy, who informed Daenerys.  This in turn led to Jorah's predictable banishment.  Getting rid of a valued adviser is also a little odd, unless that's just Varys playing standard court politics by getting rid of a rival.

[SeanC]

The Season 1 assassination attempt is the biggest continuity problem.  Dany only survived that because of Jorah's character development.

[patchwork]

I can think of a couple of incongruities.  I imagine there are more.

 

In Season 1, we're led to believe that Varys arranged the failed assassination of Daenerys by the "wine merchant".  That's an odd thing to do if you're specifically pro-Daenerys.  At the time, I hadn't read the books, so I wondered if perhaps Varys set-up the assassination so it would fail.  Perhaps they'll go that route.

 

Offhand, that leaves the question as to how Varys would know that Jorah Mormont would turn, but perhaps Varys has been bull shitting the council the whole time and Jorah was always in the Targ camp.  But in Season 4, before he was banished, Jorah acted as if he genuinely been working for the Baratheons at first.

 

Another issue is why support Daenerys in stead of Varys.  Varys was an asshole, but how could they now how Daenerys would develop.  Varys was already dead at the time of the failed assassination, so that could cause Varys to switch from Varys to Daenerys.  But I don't know how Varys would have enough time to find out about Vary's death and arrange for the assassination of Daenerys to fail, even with help from Illyrio.

 

In Season 4, we're led to believe that it was Varys who sent the copy of Jorah's Baratheon pardon to Barristan Selmy, who informed Daenerys.  This in turn led to Jorah's predictable banishment.  Getting rid of a valued adviser is also a little odd, unless that's just Varys playing standard court politics by getting rid of a rival.

 

I suppose they could say that originally Varys was a supporter of Viserys and he planned Dany's death to be the catalyst which spurred the Dothraki to cross the sea and invade Westeros, Viserys naturally leading from the back and taking the Iron Throne. He didn't hear of Viserys' death until after the failed assassination, I think the events are pretty close together at least on the show. 

 

Dany then goes on to prove herself as a Targaryen worthy of the name renewing Varys' hopes.  

Edited January 31, 2015 by patchwork

[benteen]

It was in Episode 5 where Robert ordered the assassination of Dany and say he wanted that "little shit Viserys" dead too.  Viserys didn't die until the end of Episdoe 6.  Before that happened, Varys had likely arranged the assassination.  But just for Dany.

[benteen]

She does? What is it? Season 4 ended very close to where we left Sansa in the books, and anything much past that is speculation. If the producers ultimately see Lady S as a plot device, why couldn't they just slot Sansa into the position of executing those plot points? I personally doubt it, but as we know that they aren't planning to have Lady S on the show, someone has to fill the role at least as far as Brienne is concerned, I would think.

 

It seems the only option as the likelihood of Michelle Fairly returning seems less and less likely.  The Brotherhood has been completely off the table as it is since Season 3. 

 

I agree with what was once said here, Lady Stoneheart really doesn't get more interesting than her initial return at the end of Book 3.  But she's important to Brienne's ultimate storyline, likely going to be important to Jaime's ultimate storyline, and might play a role in the fate of the Riverlands (which has been mostly ignored on this show).  It's not something that can be swept away but D and D have swept a lot away already.

[Pete Martell]

I'm so glad I can come here to see all these theories and speculations, because all I did in that promo was wonder who sang that hideous dirge.

[loki567]

I'm nervous. Very, very nervous. Roughly every time the writers have wandered away from the books things have felt bloated and pointless. And now we're at the point, where it's pretty much all away from the books.

 

From what I'm seeing from the footage and the promos I feel like my worst fear for the next two seasons are coming true, they are saving the Fire & Ice battle for episode nine of NEXT season and as a result, there's going to be a lot of stalling to get things to line up at that point. I think that's why there hasn't been any casting for the Northern lords and potentially any Greyjoys. So you have Dany boggled down by the Harpies, Stannis and Davos spending the entire year at the Wall, Jon's election taking place. 

[ElizaD]

I've always thought that Aegon exists only to clear an easy path for Dany to ultimately swoop into Westeros. I figured he might be stuck doing the more unsavory tasks, like getting rid of Tommen, so that Dany can keep her hands clean. GRRM has been mostly unwilling to put Dany up against anything other than stock villains, so I wouldn't be surprised if he used Aegon as a human shield to protect Dany from opposing any fan favorites. I wonder how the show will handle her possibly having to confront some of the more popular show characters.

 

This is one of the reasons I dislike Aegon, he and Connington keep Dany from having to face tough choices and an exciting fight against the familiar characters who've been in charge of KL. Since the show has scrubbed Tyrion clean of all shades of gray I'm sure the Tyrion/Dany team won't be responsible for the deaths of Tommen and other decent characters either (the High Septon/Sand Snakes/Varys/Littlefinger could become responsible on the show even if someone else is guilty in TWOW), but at least they'll get to Westeros faster than in the books if they're taking some of Aegon's role, even if it's only as the candidate supported by the Dornish army that wrecks KL in Dany's name.

 

From what I'm seeing from the footage and the promos I feel like my worst fear for the next two seasons are coming true, they are saving the Fire & Ice battle for episode nine of NEXT season and as a result, there's going to be a lot of stalling to get things to line up at that point. I think that's why there hasn't been any casting for the Northern lords and potentially any Greyjoys. So you have Dany boggled down by the Harpies, Stannis and Davos spending the entire year at the Wall, Jon's election taking place. 

 

I doubt they'll wait that long. It would leave them only one season, two at most if they went Breaking Bad and split the final season, to get Dany and Tyrion to Westeros and start the epic dragon/zombie fights. It's more likely that Greyjoy uncles, Fake Arya and Manderly (I'm in deep mourning, but it really looks like we won't be getting any revenge for the Red Wedding or the best speech of ADWD) have all been cut and Theon will escape/Rickon will return in some other way.

 

Leaked script summary for Season 5 Episode 1. Posted in August, it's now been confirmed by the trailer's inclusion of these scenes:

 

we get another scene with Tyrion and Varys where Varys urges him to join him on his journey – to Meereen. He tells Tyrion that he still has a part to play in the war of Westeros and that the Seven Kingdoms need a better king than Tommen.

Tyrion tells Varys “good luck finding him” and Varys goes all “who said anything about HIM?” Tyrion then agrees to join Varys on his journey to the young QUEEN as long as he can keep drinking.

 

A scene takes place between Jaime and Cersei where they receive a box with a dead viper in it, a lion necklace in its jaw. Cersei tells Jaime that there are only two such necklaces in the world – the one she is wearing around her neck, and the one she has gifted to Myrcella. Jaime agrees that this is a threat by the Martells. Cersei is furious that their daughter is in danger.

 

According to the summary, Jon becomes LC in episode 2 or 3 and Stannis already talks about attacking the Boltons in 1.