Television Vs. Book: Why'd They Make [Spoiler] Such A [Spoiler]?

[Haldebrandt]

The show doesn't much get into Tywin's issues with smiles and laughter, so I don't even know if the smiling corpse would have the same effect on the Unsullied but I'd still like to see it all the same. There are two times on the show where we've seen Tywin smile or be amused by something. Once was when he was schooling Joffrey about why the council meetings are being held in the Tower of the Hand and we see him smirking as he's leaving. The other is when he briefly chuckles during Joffrey's wedding as he wonders about what it is that has his daughter in a good mood, probably knowing that whatever it is that is causing this momentary bit of happiness is likely due to the misfortune of another. This kind of reminds me of a moment where Tywin almost smiles in one of Tyrion's chapters and Tyrion is all unnerved by it.

There are quite a few more instances throughout the series, for example on the battle field in Baelor (perhaps even two episodes before, in his first scene), a couple of scenes with Arya, etc.  During the wedding, he was visibly pleased with the dwarf skit, and even smiling, I think.  He certainly clapped.  There may be more.  It was weird because I thought Tywin was well above that sort of base "entertainment."  Even the Unsullied found that it was out of character.  

GRRM wrote the episode so perhaps that's his vision.  But I am more tempted to think that Tywin's reaction was changed on the set.

[PeteMartell]

There are quite a few more instances throughout the series, for example on the battle field in Baelor (perhaps even two episodes before, in his first scene), a couple of scenes with Arya, etc.  During the wedding, he was visibly pleased with the dwarf skit, and even smiling, I think.  He certainly clapped.  There may be more.  It was weird because I thought Tywin was well above that sort of base "entertainment."  Even the Unsullied found that it was out of character.  

GRRM wrote the episode so perhaps that's his vision.  But I am more tempted to think that Tywin's reaction was changed on the set.

 

I wonder if it was part of a shift to Tywin being more actively cruel toward Tyrion, whereas in the past he was obviously disgusted by him but tried to hide it a little more.

 

I was rewatching The Lion and the Rose earlier today and noticed that Bronn talked about the Lannisters "shitting gold." So I guess we will be hearing that for Tywin...

[benteen]

Yeah, they've had Tywin smiling a couple of time on this show.  Was he smiling during the dwarf skit?  I remember in the book Tyrion notices that Tywin actually does seem to be smiling and needless to say, that really threw Tyrion's anger over the edge.

 

I'm curious what they'll do with Varys too.  Maybe he'll remain a shadowy figure in King's Landing but who is he going to talk to?  Tyrion was someone he would often interact with but Tyrion will be across the Narrow Sea.  I just hope the show doesn't tip their hand and keeps his murder of Pycelle and Kevan a surprise.  Although first they have to actually bring Kevan back to the show.

 

Varys accompanying Tyrion isn't a bad idea except he has to be in King's Landing.  Although...I suppose he could hook up with Jon Connington and Aegon when the Golden Company invades Westeros.  Littlefinger is setting up his power base in the Eyrie so perhaps Varys could set his up too.  Just an idea.

[Avaleigh]

I'd forgotten about those scenes with Arya. Now that you've reminded me I remember her making him actually lol when when she said. "Most girls are idiots. I can't imagine that young Cersei and Arya were all that similar apart from them both being mischievous and frustrated with gender expectations, but I still appreciated the line about how she reminds him of his daughter.

I remembered Tywin clapping during the skit but didn't realize he was smiling too. Odd choice to make.

It's funny how much humor there can be in a character like Tywin particularly if he's putting somebody in their place so to speak, and I feel like the show captures this in a way that's even more effective than the books. Moments like when he tells Cersei "You're still here." His I Am Not Amused expression when Olenna asks him if he's ever been with a man. Walking right up to Joffrey while Joffrey is seated on the throne so that little asshole ends up shrinking back in fear. Turning puffed up Mace into an errand boy, etc.

I don't think Varys can stay in KL. Cersei can't have anyone competent on the small council and I like the idea of he and Tyrion making the first leg of his journey together.

If they did choose to keep Varys in KL I suppose he could have scenes with Ellaria, Kevan, and maybe Margaery. I can't really think of any others.

Edited June 7, 2014 by Avaleigh

[KatWay]

I wish they hadn't changed "Only Cat", It's such a minor thing, but that line just had more...oompf. In my opinion. And I don't get why they changed that, like at all. 

 

I'm wondering with Lysa being less explicit about Littlefinger's machinations in front of Sansa and Sansa going all Maleficent this episode, if this is foreshadowing that Sansa will be working alongside him in the books. Her journey has been way slower in them compared to the show. I was also surprised that she reaffirmed her being Sansa, since in the books Alayne seemed get lost in her false identity somewhat. I'm guessing that won't happen on the show either. A lot of the Unsullied are like hell yeah, she's going to manipulate him now, but I'm not quite as sure of that. She might actually see him as her only friend. And he seemed...annoyed when she went off book, even though it helped him. I just feel like people need to remember that Littlefinger can be obsessed with people (Catelyn) and still stand idly by as those people suffer. Desiring Sansa doesn't necessarily mean she's safe with him or that she has actuall influence on him.

 

Part of this is killing Lysa so quickly on the show, while in the books I felt some time had passed. As well as the Marillion thing. Littlefinger killing Lysa in the books seemed much less like a gamble he took just to protect Sansa, because it did kind of present him with an ideal opportunity including a false cuplrit. On the show they made it seem much more like he was caught off guard and almost ruined his plans because he had to kill Lysa for Sansa.

[benteen]

Yeah, I've never thought Sansa was safe with Littlefinger either.  It's more obvious in the books.  Little things like LF getting annoyed with her once and a while for not catching on to what she's was saying.  Given what he did to Ned and how his plotting resulted in some way in the death of Cat, he shouldn't be trusted on the show either.  But I think he comes across more "friendly" to Sansa on the show.

 

Littlefinger never would have been caught the way he was last week, without a plan for getting rid of Lysa.  But the show hasn't been good with his character since the beginning.  Whether it was spelling out his intentions ahead of time with exposition or moments like him throwing Cersei's incest back in her face (something LF never would have done publicly), this LF is a lot less smarter than his book counterpart.  At least they were able to use last week as a way to finally give Sansa some serious agency of her own.

Edited June 7, 2014 by benteen

[Pete Martell]

I have a feeling they are going to play up "who is really in charge?" with Sansa and Littlefinger, rather than tell us definitively. I just hope this won't lead to any sexual relationship (or sexual assault).

 

I also have a sad feeling they cut the "only Cat" line because they thought some viewers wouldn't know who he meant. 

[Avaleigh]

I agree that Littlefinger wouldn't have been so bold about the incest in front of Cersei, nor do I think he would have thrown Lysa out of the moon door without a plan. The way he's sitting there thinking he's about to be toast when they ask to speak to the witness and he's all 'uh, yeah, let me go get her' so that he can make sure they're on the same page and I'm thinking, wait, why didn't you two have a conversation straight away to determine what story the two of you would be telling? Book Littlefinger is smooth and has more finesse in general than show Littlefinger.

I actually preferred the change to "your sister" because I couldn't recall her being referred to as Cat on the show by anyone.

I feel like there's a big chance that the" controversial" thing coming up with Sansa in TWoW is sexual and I think Littlefinger has to be a candidatecconsidering how we last saw the two of them together.

[GleamingMist]

I actually preferred the change to "your sister" because I couldn't recall her being referred to as Cat on the show by anyone.

 

 

Robert calls her Cat in the very first episode when he comes to Winterfell, when he first greets her :)

[Lady S.]

Yeah, she was definitely called Cat on the show. I think D&D just change lines like this and "Jaime Lannister sends his regards" because they feel like it.

[DigitalCount]

I thought they changed it because it sounds horrid when stated. "Only Cat" might hold some significance to the average forum-going bookwalker, but it just sounds weird and stilted. It looks better than it sounds.

[jjjmoss]

I found this neat graph charting what chapters every episode of the first 3 seasons came from. I noted some errors, but I think the following statements are true:

S1 is almost entirely divided up into consecutive blocks to make up each episode - except Dany, who in earlier episodes gets her stuff pushed forward, and consequently in later episodes has the only chapter missing from an episode block.

 

Later seasons mix it up a lot more so that it's very rare for there to be an episode made up of a consecutive chapter block, with the main exception being Blackwater (though not showing this is one of the graph's errors). For the opposite approach, and with the narrative-ly opposite result for the invader, Dany's last S3 chapter makes up the entirety of her storyline for 4 consecutive episodes. 

 

Of the 1st book POV characters, the only one still alive who'd never had a chapter skipped is Dany.

Edited June 8, 2014 by jjjmoss

[Pete Martell]

I don't know if this is the right thread to ask this in, but did Varys never want to use Viserys and Dany to take back the throne? Did he always have this new Aegon in mind instead?

[WearyTraveler]

I don't know if this is the right thread to ask this in, but did Varys never want to use Viserys and Dany to take back the throne? Did he always have this new Aegon in mind instead?

The books never say anything of the kind, but Varys knows Illyrio Mopatis and sends Tyron there.  I think he had the three chess pieces at play (Viserys, Dany and Aegon) and was just waiting to see which one he could use.

 

-----------------------------

 

Since we are asking questions, why do some people think Aegon is fake? Has the book given any indication to that or is it only a theory?  Funnily enough, I remember better the stuff that happened in the first 3 books than in the last two

Edited June 8, 2014 by WearyTraveler

[Pete Martell]

So did he not want to kill Dany? 

[WearyTraveler]

So did he not want to kill Dany? 

 

I don't think he has ever said that in the books, but he has not said he wants to kill her either (that I recall).

It's hard to tell with Varys and Illyrio.  Illyrio had Dany and Viserys in his house and arranged for the marriage with Drogo.  He also was the one to give her the dragon eggs.  And Illyrio was the one who sent Strong Belwas and Barristan Selmy to Dany, along with the ships that were to take her to KL (but she made that stop in Astapor to get her Unsullied Army and later destroyed the ships to take Mereen). Marriage means children and that means heirs, so, they were either betting on more Tragaryens from Dany's side or they were hoping the Dothraki life would kill her.  Or Illyrio has his own game that he has not shared with Varys.

 

There are many ways the events could be interpreted.

Edited June 8, 2014 by WearyTraveler

[ElizaD]

I don't know if this is the right thread to ask this in, but did Varys never want to use Viserys and Dany to take back the throne? Did he always have this new Aegon in mind instead?

 

Some version of the Aegon plan was made years ago when the boy was still a baby and the details have been adjusted over time. IMO, the plan was for Viserys to attack with the Dothraki. They get defeated because they can't handle Westerosi terrain, warfare and sieges, but they do some damage and drain the resources of the crown before going down. Viserys and Dany, the Mad King's children and legitimate heirs, get a bad reputation for their alliance with savages. Then "Aegon", son of the popular Rhaegar, arrives as a hero who saves the people from the barbarians and crushes the weakened Baratheon forces. I think Illyrio says at some point in ADWD that he didn't expect Dany to survive the Dothraki. If she did live, a second marriage to Aegon after Drogo's death would have strengthened his claim to be who he says he is, but it wasn't absolutely essential.

 

Short wiki page about the Fake Aegon theories.

 

 

 

A key problem with the pisswater prince story is that it should not have been possible for Varys to know in advance that Aegon would be killed in such a manner as to leave him unrecognizable. If the pisswater prince's face had remained intact after his death as Rhaenys' was, no one would have been fooled. Moreover, the Valyrian features of silver-gold hair and purple eyes are so rare in Westeros that it is extremely unlikely that the pisswater prince could have had them. Pale blond hair may pass for silver-gold if there is very little left and it's covered in blood, but Varys could not have known in advance that Aegon's whole head would be smashed. The pisswater prince plot only makes sense retrospectively, knowing that the baby presented by Tywin was not recognizable as Aegon. It seems more likely that Varys cooked up this plot after the real Aegon had died to exploit the shred of doubt that the corpse's condition had created.

 

There's also a lot of Blackfyre references that aren't mentioned on that page. And from a meta perspective, Dany is the POV Targaryen heir with dragons whose eventual return to Westeros has been the justification for her character development/pagetime in Essos since book 1; Aegon doesn't get a POV and appears out of nowhere in book 5 (the only foreshadowing is of his fakeness, the "cloth dragon" in Dany's vision) with no connection to the dragons or the Others plots that are set to be the climax of the series. If GOT is like the Wars of the Roses, Aegon is very Perkin Warbeck/False Dmitri.

Edited June 8, 2014 by ElizaD

[Winnief]

 

I think Illyrio says at some point in ADWD that he didn't expect Dany to survive the Dothraki. If she did live, a second marriage to Aegon after Drogo's death would have strengthened his claim to be who he says he is, but it wasn't absolutely essential.

 

Precisely-marriage to Dany didn't become a necessity until after Dany became the mother of dragons.  This is why Illyrio was so keen on getting Dany to come back to Pentos immediately after he got word about the dragons.  In all likelihood his plan was to introduce Dany to her 'nephew' the moment she arrived-and then make damn sure they get married early on before the dragons, (and Dany's power,) grew so large they put her beyond influence.  Then just wait until the dragons are big enough to take down cities, and send Dany, Aegon, and the GC on to Westeros and all Seven Kingdoms will tremble.  

 

Of course, Dany (on Jorah's urging) didn't go directly back to Pentos but instead managed to acquire a large and extremely impressive bad-ass army all by herself, while her dragons are now big enough to ride, which is why as Tyrion pointed out, there was no particular reason for her to accept Aegon's hand in marriage anymore.  Which basically means Varys's whole plan is now screwed, because if/when Dany gets to Westeros there's no way Aegon and the GC can beat the Unsullied and three Giant Scaly WMD's-even with have support from Dorne and the Reach.  It's the one misstep in all of Varys's ever so careful schemes as I'm betting he's soon going to learn.

[Haleth]

Queens and young girls are notoriously fickle.  It is known.  

 

I feel sorry for Varys.  Keeping up with the Targaryens is like herding cats.  Viserys gets himself crowned, Dany goes off on a neverending quest to free all the slaves of Essos, and Aegon decides to invade Westeros on his own thanks to Tyrion's suggestion.  What is a master manipulator to do?  

 

I think the mention of a "mummer's dragon" is the best indicator that Aegon is not who they claim he is.

Edited June 8, 2014 by Haleth

[WearyTraveler]

Interesting theories.  Aegon could be a fake, but I'm not sure the justification offered in that quote is logically sound.  Also, I think he might have been someone else in Dany's vision in the House of the Undying, other than the cloth dragon.

 

In AGOT, Ned remembers Lyana's death in a bed of blood and her desperate pleas: "promise me, Ned".  If R+L= Jon Snow, then one could presume Lyanna died while giving birth to Jon and Ned's promise had to do with protecting her son.  In any case, Rhaegar was at the Trident when this happened.  Ned was closer to KL's after having gone to the Tower to get Lyanna, which is why he arrived to KL before Robert to find Jaimie in the Iron throne.  This is important because it means Rhaegar had never set eyes upon Jon Snow before he died.  Given the travel times in Westeros and the logistics of fighting wars there, he might not even have known that Lyanna was pregnant.  He might have had to leave her in the tower early in her pregnancy, so he would have had enough time to get himself and his army to the Trident to try to stop Robert Baratheon.

 

One of Dany's vision is of Rhaegar and a woman holding a baby boy.  If Rhaegar had never set eyes upon Jon, this could only mean that Dany saw him with Ellia, holding Aegon.  In the vision, Rhaegar says the baby is the Prince that was promised.  Before that, Rhaegar believed he himself was the promised prince, which explains his melancholy.  We know this because Aemon tells Sam so, before he died at sea on his way to Oldtown.

 

Now, if Rhaegar believed Aegon was the promised prince, it makes sense he felt liberated enough to pursue Lyanna.  Most of the tales the characters tell about Rhaegar talk of his honor and his sense of responsibility.  Aemon says he felt the burden of the prophecy on his shoulders.  We also know that for a long time before he actually donned his armor and did the things male heirs to the crown were supposed to do (joust, melee, sword fights, etc.), he preferred music and books.  This story was told (by Barristan to Dany, IIRC) almost as if the prince had had a sudden change of heart.  It stands to reason that this happened after he found out about the prophecy and started believing he was the promised  one.  He was also planning to make changes and exert some influence on Aerys when the war was over. His pursuing Lyanna, a woman promised to another, even though he was married as well, contradicts what we know of Rhaegar before Robert's Rebellion.  Unless he did believe Aegon was the promised prince, which then freed him from his burden and allowed him to pursue his desires, more or less guilt free.

 

I think it's entirely possible that, believing Aegon was the promised one, and knowing the mechanics and cruelty of war, Rhaegar made a plan to keep the baby safe as soon as Robert's Rebellion started to gain enough momentum to be a threat to the throne.  Jon Snow, who is likely less read than Rhaegar was, did take a similar measure with Mance's baby, exchanging him for Gilly's boy.  If Rhaegar believed Aegon was of such importance, who's to say that he didn't entrust Varys with switching the child in case the worst came to pass?  It is strange that the baby boy's head was smashed, and not the girl's.  Why? Why would any Lannister man do that and risk his deed be challenged? At some point Tywin explains that he knew the only way to gain Robert's trust was to present him with the two corpses.  Why would he present a smashed head baby and a perfectly un-smashed headed girl? One explanation could be because he had no choice.

 

If Rhaegar used Varys to hide Aegon before the shit hit the fan and Tywin had found an impostor baby (or no baby at all), what would he do then to completely gain Robert's trust? Wouldn't he look for a baby that could pass for Aegon and smash his head so that no one would know he had presented a fake baby?  I think the smashed head argument works both ways. So, nothing is definitive.

Personally, I like the existence of Aegon as a true Targaryen.  I don't want any watered down Targaryens riding the dragons: Tyrion, with the theory that Aerys was his father (which I don't subscribe, I prefer to think that Genna Lannister was right when she said Tyrion was Tywin's one true son); Daario who claims to have dragon blood; or any of the dozens that claim to have a Targaryen ancestor, including the Baratheons (legitimate heirs and bastards).

 

I think the cloth dragon in the prophecy could very well be any of these watered down Targaryens: Stannis, Daario, even Quentyn Martell.  To me, Quentyn actually looks like the best option for the cloth dragon vision, so far.

 

IMO, Jon is the prince that was promised and Dany and Aegon are the other two heads of the three headed dragon.  Why Jon? because he is literally Ice and Fire, the title of the series. His birth is close enough to Dany's for the same conditions to apply to his birth that applied to hers. His ice comes from Lyanna, his fire from Rhaegar.  Off course if he ends up dead in TWoW, the prophecy is up for grabs, with Daenerys being the front runner.

Miss-reading prophecies seems to be a common theme in the series.  Melissandre, Aemon, Thoros, The Damphair, Rhaegar.... No one seems to get it right :D

Edited June 8, 2014 by WearyTraveler

[Winnief]

I agree its entirely possible that Rhaegar believed Aegon to be the Prince That Was Promised but 

 

a. Rhaegar wasn't accurate in interpreting these prophecies-he assumed the three dragon riders would all be his children when in fact at least one was his sister, and another might not even be of Targaryen blood at all.

 

b.  Rhaegar would certainly have been serious about protecting Aegon-indeed all his children since he thought them the three heads of the dragon-but I don't think he would have been quite so crafty about that.  This is the guy who never thought to explain to the Starks that he was claiming Lyanna as a second wife, thus bringing about a chain of events that led to war.  I think he just failed completely to understand the gravity of the threat facing Elia and her babies-I mean he left them alone at the Red Keep with the Mad King for over a year, which when you think about it was hazardous in and of itself, and while he may have thought he might die on the battlefield it simply didn't occur to him that his father's former hand Tywin would personally order his pet monster to murder toddlers.  

[The Kings Foot]

Dont assume that prophecies cant be thwarted.

[Maximum Taco]

I don't know if this is the right thread to ask this in, but did Varys never want to use Viserys and Dany to take back the throne? Did he always have this new Aegon in mind instead?

 

I believe he always had Aegon in mind. While Viserys was left to languish in his delusions and Dany was left to be Viserys' meek punching bag, Aegon was trained in history and warcraft and economics and all the other kingly qualities that Varys values. It's very clear (to me atleast) that Varys' main goal is putting Aegon on the throne because he's the most fit to rule. Not to mention that a son of Rhaegar has a better claim than Aerys' remaining children.

 

I always thought the whole point of Viserys and Dany was to gain support for Aegon. Dany would be wed to Khal Drogo and gain an army of Dothraki screamers, Viserys would be wed to Arianne Martell and gain Dornish support as well as a foothold in Westeros where they could land their army under the noses of the Lannisters.

 

He didn't expect Viserys and Drogo to die so quickly though and that, in addition to the dragons hatching (another unexpected event) kind of ruined his careful plans. And then Aegon deided to sail for Westeros on his own.

Edited June 8, 2014 by Maximum Taco

[Mormegil]

 

Ned was closer to KL's after having gone to the Tower to get Lyanna, which is why he arrived to KL before Robert to find Jaimie in the Iron throne.

 

Ned didn't go to the ToJ till later.

 

 

Ned rides to the Capital from the Trident

Robert has to travel slower as he was wounded

Ned finds the Lannisters have sacked the city and Jaime is on the Throne

Ned rides to break the siege at Storm's End (after Robert has arrived in KL)

Ned then rides to the ToJ.

[Dev F]

Here's a Reddit thread that lays out the full fAegon theory in much more detail. I find it pretty dang persuasive.

 

Though, to be fair, I also want it to be true, because setting up one character as the last Targaryen for four books and then decreeing, "Just kidding! There was another Targ out there that we just didn't tell you about, even though we jumped our story all the way across the sea specifically to tell you about the last Targaryen in the first place!" is hardly narratively satisfying.

Edited June 8, 2014 by Dev F

[WearyTraveler]

I agree its entirely possible that Rhaegar believed Aegon to be the Prince That Was Promised but 

 

a. Rhaegar wasn't accurate in interpreting these prophecies-he assumed the three dragon riders would all be his children when in fact at least one was his sister, and another might not even be of Targaryen blood at all.

 

Yes, no one in Westeros seems to be able to interpret prophecies correctly, not that it gets any easier when you're a reader and have more information.  Just look at all the theories out there.  However, my point wasn't that Rhaegar was correct interpreting the prophecy, only that he might have made some plans because he believed in his interpretation.

 

b.  Rhaegar would certainly have been serious about protecting Aegon-indeed all his children since he thought them the three heads of the dragon-but I don't think he would have been quite so crafty about that.  This is the guy who never thought to explain to the Starks that he was claiming Lyanna as a second wife, thus bringing about a chain of events that led to war.  I think he just failed completely to understand the gravity of the threat facing Elia and her babies-I mean he left them alone at the Red Keep with the Mad King for over a year, which when you think about it was hazardous in and of itself, and while he may have thought he might die on the battlefield it simply didn't occur to him that his father's former hand Tywin would personally order his pet monster to murder toddlers.

 

Lyanna didn't seem to want to provide explanations to her family either.  I don't believe Rhaegar raped her or took her against her will.  He could have, off course, but when Jojen tells Bran the story about the green man who went to the tourney, he depicts a Lyanna that is no meek little mouse.  And the stories we have read of Rhaegar don't jive with a scenario where he would take her against her will and rape her.  I think their relationship was consensual, so, there must have been some other reason for their lack of explanations to the Starks and the Baratheons.  Maybe they thought the families wouldn't understand and that they would force Lyanna to keep her father's word to the Baratheons.  Just look at how offended Walder Frey got when Robb married someone else.  Perhaps they wanted to get married first and make it impossible for anybody to stop them, deciding to explain it all once the deed was done, so to speak.  Ned's honor code must have come from somewhere, most likely his father.  I don't think Lord Stark would have just agreed with Lyanna and Rhaegar's little plan, as he wouldn't have wanted to break his promise and sully his honor.

 

I agree he failed to understand the gravity of Ellia's situation, but I don't think leaving her and the children in the Red Keep was a crazy notion.  The Red Keep would not have fallen so easily if Aerys had not opened his gates to Tywin Lannister.  This is King's Landing we're talking about and the Red Keep is one of the strongest castles in all of Westeros.  Countless times we have read in the books how hard it is to actually break the defenses and enter the main Westerosi castles.  When the besiegers strategize, they always give lengthy time frames for a castle's fall, talking about castles holding on for a year or more with their gates closed.  Stannis himself held Storm's End for over a year while an army was stationed outside the whole time.  During the Blackwater battle, we get some insight into what it would take for Stannis' men to actually break into The Red Keep.  It's not that easy.  Unless the gates open, it would take some time.

 

I don't think it was unreasonable for Rhaegar to believe Ellia would be safe there.  Aerys was mad, but he would have never taken actions against his own blood, and every man with a sword in KL was supposed to protect the royal family, even if it meant their lives.  They seem to look at those vows as we do secret service agents nowadays: jump in front of the bullet to protect your charge, fight until you die to protect the Targs.  Look at Jamie's situation.  Most everyone knew the king was mad, and most everyone was happy Robert grabbed the throne from him, but everyone, including Robet's supporters (the Starks, the Tullys, the Arryns, the small folk) despise and scorn Jamie, saying he has shit for honor.  Everyone expected him to die defending the Mad King because he had sworn a vow.  It seems that in their minds honor comes before doing the right thing. 

So, I don't think Rhaegar was that careless when he thought Ellia and his children would be safe there.  His mistake was to underestimate Tywin.  But maybe he didn't know all the offenses his father had inflicted upon House Lannister.  IIRC, Tywin resigned as Hand of the King, he wasn't burned like the subsequent Hands, so, maybe Rhaegar wasn't aware of how far back or how deep their enmity was.  Would Rhaegar had known that Aerys lusted for Joanna?  Would he have known that Arys had resfused to marry him to Cersei?  Maybe he did, or maybe he didn't.  Up until the Lannister army sacked King's Landing, everyone thought Tywin supported the King.

Perhaps Rhaegar had made arrangements with Varys before hand, in case the defenses were breached.  Cersei does explain during the Blackwater battle that even if the enemy broke into the castle, it would still take them sometime to actually breach the Red Keep, and the tower where she and the other women were gathered during the battle.  Perhaps he didn't and Varys just took it upon himself to save the children, but was only able to get Aegon away through one of the Red Keep's secret passages before the Lannister men broke into Ellia's rooms.  The male heir is always the most important.  Aegon would have been first in line for the throne, before Viserys, Dany or Rhaenys.  The succession would have been Aegon, Viserys, Rhaenys, Dany (who had not been born yet).  So, it stands to reason that Varys would have tried to save baby Aegon first, particularly knowing the next male heir was reasonably safe at the time in Dragonstone.

 

I think the point still stands that Aegon's smashed head could work both ways:  Either Amory Lorch found no baby at all, or he found an impostor, so Tywin decided to fool Robert with an unrecognizable baby (or maybe Amory decided to fool Tywin, not ready to admit failure to his Lord); OR Varys thought he could use the smashed head to create some plausibility for his fake Aegon.

 

It's hard to tell with Varys.  In the books he doesn't come across as someone power hungry who desires to have/control the Iron Throne.  He keeps saying that he defends "the realm" and seems to have a soft spot for children and common folk.  Why would he come up with such a convoluted way to "help" the realm? I mean, think about it, he would have had to had hatched the fake Aegon plan within a year of the head-smashing, choosing a boy and grooming him for over 13 years to become the king.  Could he not have helped the realm in any other way? After all, two Targaryen heirs whose ancestry could not be questioned still survived Robert's Rebellion and he eventually got to them when Willem Darry died and they ended up in Illaryo Mopatis' care.  Could he have not helped the realm by manipulating the players already in KL? Whoever got to be King, Hand, Master of whatever?  Why does it need to be a Targaryen?  Cuoldn't he simply support any other claim, stronger at the time, with complete support from the people, such as Robert's?  Why invest in the impoverished, unsupported Targaryens at all?  Who is with them, anyway?  Who are these secret Targ supporters that would overtake the realm if only a rightful heir would show up? The griffins, who have very little manpower? The Martells who seem to have power but not enough to really threaten the realm (as Doran explains to Arianne AFFC)?

 

I think we will come to find out that Varys supports house Targaryen from the heart, and that he's not in the game for power or personal gain.  Varys actually counseled Aerys against opening the gates to Tywin, but Pycelle convinced him otherwise.  Why is Varys so fond of House Targaryen?  I think that's an interesting question to ask.

 

Dont assume that prophecies cant be thwarted.

 

True.  Although from a literary standpoint, given the emphasis placed on this particular prophecy and the events that are unfolding north of the Wall, which seem to confirm the prophecy, at least in the grand scheme aspects, it is more likely, IMO, that the prophecy will turn out to be largely true, and we just need to figure out the details.

Edited June 8, 2014 by WearyTraveler

[Maximum Taco]

Aegon is almost certainly a false dragon. Not sure if hes a Blackfyre, it seems fairly ambiguous and circumstantial based on published material. He might just as easily be a boy with Targaryen colouring, silver hair and purple eyes don't necessarily make a Targaryen/Blackfyre, some of the Daynes have silver hair and purple eyes as well.

 

Regardless, I'm almost positive Aegon will die, he's far too suitable for rule, and there is no way the series ends with someone like Aegon, someone who has been groomed to rule, on the throne. I doubt Dany will end up there either though. To me she's been tripping death flags for a while as well. But she'll have a glorious death, whereas Aegon will probably be eaten by a dragon, maybe Rhaegal, for poetic effect.

Edited June 8, 2014 by Maximum Taco

[blixie]

 

given the emphasis placed on this particular prophecy

But *from a literary standpoint* as was already stated GRRM  has spent 4 books and given POV chapters to Danearys, and Aegon comes out of nowhere in the fifth book and is not given a POV chapter. I mean of course it's possible that Aegon isn't a fake, but I do not give a tiny tin fuck about him, much less am I actively rooting for him to win the Iron Throne and be the realms best/true ruler. The weight given to Daenarys entire story trumps whatever the shit is being asserted with the Fake Targ story, and I don't even agree this prophecy has been given more weight than every other freaking prophecy, the only one that seems to be actually on the money, more or less exactly as stated is Maggy the Frog's.

 

I do think fAegon was always Varys #1 plan because he believes the people of Westeros love the Targs best, and because the son of THE most beloved Targ of all would hold the strongest sway, while in actual fact Faegon shares non of that CRAZY ass incest blood with the Targs and has been personally groomed by Varys from birth to be the best of Kings. Or at least so Varys thinks about his own abilities to create a good king, so again WHATEVER.

[Winnief]

 

 

But *from a literary standpoint* as was already stated GRRM  has spent 4 books and given POV chapters to Danearys, and Aegon comes out of nowhere in the fifth book and is not given a POV chapter. I mean of course it's possible that Aegon isn't a fake, but I do not give a tiny tin fuck about him, much less am I actively rooting for him to win the Iron Throne and be the realms best/true ruler. The weight given to Daenarys entire story trumps whatever the shit is being asserted with the Fake Targ story, and I don't even agree this prophecy has been given more weight than every other freaking prophecy, the only one that seems to be actually on the money, more or less exactly as stated is Maggy the Frog's.

I do think fAegon was always Varys #1 plan because he believes the people of Westeros love the Targs best, and because the son of THE most beloved Targ of all would hold the strongest sway, while in actual fact Faegon shares non of that CRAZY ass incest blood with the Targs and has been personally groomed by Varys from birth to be the best of Kings. Or at least so Varys thinks about his own abilities to create a good king, so again WHATEVER.

 

Well said!  Personally, I'd prefer if they didn't use Aegon on the show, and your reasons for why Varys concocted this whole plot seem right on the money to me.  I think Varys, though, might be disappointed in the results when he meets his "perfect prince" in person.  Remember the kid's poor cyvasse skills, his temper tantrums, and the fact that it had never occurred to him that the first Targaryen in centuries with dragons wouldn't necessarily just marry him on the spot and hand him one of her dragons until Tyrion pointed it out.  No I'm not sure Aegon's such a 'perfect' ruler at all especially for the coming Long Winter.  Not to mention that the dragons changed the whole playing field so even if Aegon is everything Varys dreamed of there's no way he's going to be able to hold the IT if/when Aunt Dany makes it to Westeros. 

 

Ironically, there is of course a lost Targaryen prince, whose bloodlines was saved from the whole madness through incest angle, who has been learning to rule and advance in his own right without being spoiled all these years-and who unlike young fAegon doesn't have a grandiose sense of entitlement-and probably actually can work with Dany's dragons.  That particular trump card though, just happens to be where Varys would never think to look.

[WearyTraveler]

Here's a Reddit thread that lays out the full fAegon theory in much more detail. I find it pretty dang persuasive.

 

I think the best argument against Aegon being a Blackfyre was posted by one of the users in the thread you linked.  He/she says:

 

"this is probably the theory that I am most skeptical of. While this evidence is convenient for obsessive fans such as ourselves, most readers will not pick up on it. I have read the series more than once and I am still unclear on the whole Blackfyre/Targaryen history. There is no way any casual reader would be able to comprehend this twist if Aegon does turn out to be a Blackfyre. A lot of the backstory comes through the Dunk and Egg series, and seeing as that will not be included in the TV show I doubt that it is an essential part of the ASOIAF storyline. I am not sold on this theory at all".

 

I agree with this, but I want to clarify that believing Aegon to be a true Targ does not in any way mean I expect him to be the promised one, or to actually sit the Iron Throne.

 

Though, to be fair, I also want it to be true, because setting up one character as the last Targaryen for four books and then decreeing, "Just kidding! There was another Targ out there that we just didn't tell you about, even though we jumped our story all the way across the sea specifically to tell you about the last Targaryen in the first place!" is hardly narratively satisfying.

 

But wouldn't this also be true of R+L=Jon Snow?  If that theory is true, then Jon's real identity reveal would take 6 or 7 books, depending on when Martin does it.  Also, I think it's Martin's way to take his sweet time with reveals.  Take for instance the reveal of Jon Arryn's murderer, that took three books.  The reveal that Joffrey had sent the hobo guy to kill Bran took two books.  Doran Martell's long game, including the reveal Arienne's secret engagement took 4 books.  There's also the note added by Martin himself at the end of book 4 where he states he was planning for books 4 and 5 to be a single issue, but that the story had grown so large he ended up deciding to make it two books.  He'd tell the story of some characters in book 4 and the story of the other characters in book 5.  That means he was planning the Aegon reveal for book 4, along with the reveal of Doran Martell's plans.  Therefore, the Aegon reveal would have taken as long as the reveal of Doran's end game.  So, no inconsistency with the writing style of the author.

 

I think Dany has a big purpose, but I'm not sure she'll sit the Iron Throne.  One possibility is that she survives the war against the White Walkers and rules after Jon (who has a better claim, if he is Rhaegar's son) either declines the throne as Aemon did because "he said the words" or dies himself saving the realm.  Another possibility is that she dies fighting the White Walkers, in true hero fashion, leaving Jon, who found raising to Lord Commander of the NW an unbelievable turn of events for a "bastard" born, to rule Westeros.  A third possibility is that because of the war against the White Walkers and the need to use the magic that is starting to inundate the world to fight them, we see some very real physical changes in the known world, such as the sun rising in the west and setting in the east, thus allowing Dany to be reunited with Drogo and their child to rule the world.  A fourth possibility is that she and Jon rule together, but I like this one the least because I find it icky, although there's certainly precedent for incest and inter-family marriages in Westeros (Tywin and Joanna were cousins), particularly with the Targs.

 

In any case, there are more reasons for Dany's story and the focus on her in the books than "this is the last Targaryen".  Also, I don't think the angle pursued by Martin for the audience is "this is the last Targaryen", but "this is a Targaryen heir who was able to raise the dragons".  Especially if we consider that he plants enough seeds in the books to make the R+L=J theory one of the most popular ones out there, that is, even the casual reader can see some signs of it. 

 

Martin certainly spends a lot time on Dany and Jon, developing their stories in a lot of detail, putting Dany in charge of the "Fire" and Jon at the forefront against the "Ice" (i.e. White Walkers).  So, I think we are heading to an eventual meeting of the two characters and that, whatever their roles in Martin's end game, they are the two to watch for.  The Lannisters are certainly interesting, and some of the plots surrounding the other characters are fascinating, but, in the end, I don't think they matter that much once the WW head south and possibly overcome the Wall to attack Westeros.

 

Aegon is almost certainly a false dragon. Not sure if hes a Blackfyre, it seems fairly ambiguous and circumstantial based on published material. He might just as easily be a boy with Targaryen colouring, silver hair and purple eyes don't necessarily make a Targaryen/Blackfyre, some of the Daynes have silver hair and purple eyes as well.

 

Regardless, I'm almost positive Aegon will die, he's far too suitable for rule, and there is no way the series ends with someone like Aegon, someone who has been groomed to rule, on the throne. I doubt Dany will end up there either though. To me she's been tripping death flags for a while as well. But she'll have a glorious death, whereas Aegon will probably be eaten by a dragon, maybe Rhaegal, for poetic effect.

 

I'm positive Aegon will die too, but that doesn't mean he's a fake dragon.  He could be a real Targ and still die.

 

But *from a literary standpoint* as was already stated GRRM  has spent 4 books and given POV chapters to Danearys, and Aegon comes out of nowhere in the fifth book and is not given a POV chapter. I mean of course it's possible that Aegon isn't a fake, but I do not give a tiny tin fuck about him, much less am I actively rooting for him to win the Iron Throne and be the realms best/true ruler. The weight given to Daenarys entire story trumps whatever the shit is being asserted with the Fake Targ story, and I don't even agree this prophecy has been given more weight than every other freaking prophecy, the only one that seems to be actually on the money, more or less exactly as stated is Maggy the Frog's.

 

I do think fAegon was always Varys #1 plan because he believes the people of Westeros love the Targs best, and because the son of THE most beloved Targ of all would hold the strongest sway, while in actual fact Faegon shares non of that CRAZY ass incest blood with the Targs and has been personally groomed by Varys from birth to be the best of Kings. Or at least so Varys thinks about his own abilities to create a good king, so again WHATEVER.

 

The argument that Aegon will have no impact on the end game does not immediately discount him as a true Targ, though.  You (the audience, I mean, including readers) don't need to root for him to win the IT for him to be a real Targ.  His possible status as a real Targ does nothing to diminish the weight of Dany's story, so far.  But it does give her another circumstance to deal with.  Would she forego her claim for her brother's son? Would she forget everything she has gone through to win the throne for her nephew's claim? Or will she act as most of the other power hungry Westerosi players?  Those are interesting questions for the character to face. I think.

 

As for the Azor Ahai prophecy, I do think this prophecy has been given more weight than others and it's probably about to get even much more, after the events at the Citadel, when Sam met Archmaester Marwyn (AFFC).  It's the only prophecy of which several characters in different continents are aware, and it's the oldest prophecy in the books (5,000 years old). So far the people that know include: Thoros, Melissandre, Jon Snow (through Mel), Maester Aemon, Samwell Tarly, Archmaester Marwyn, Moqorro, Victarion (through Moqorro), and who knows who else.  R'hallor has temples in Pentos, Braavos, Lys, Selhorys, Volantis and Oldtown that we know off; presumably all the Red Priests in these cities know about the prophecy.  This religion certainly seems to be the more ubiquitous of all the religions in the world of Ice and Fire.

 

Maggy's prophecies were right, off course, but one can't judge yet if this Red Religion prophecy is wrong, as most of the events it refers to have not happened yet, whereas almost all the events Maggy foretold have already happened.

 

Some events that have happened in the books so far do seem to indicate that the prophecy was on the right track, the most notable of which is the rise of the Others who had been gone from the world for hundreds of years.  So much so, that people had already forgotten them, including the men of the Night's Watch, whose only purpose was to defend the realm from the Others. 

 

Consider this (from a wiki of Ice and Fire):

 

"According to prophesy, in ancient books of Asshai from over 5,000 years ago, Azor Ahai is to be reborn again to challenge the re-emergence of the Others. This will occur after a long summer when an evil, cold darkness descends upon the world.[41] It is said that Azor Ahai wielding Lightbringer once again, will stand against the Others and if he fails, the world fails with him."

 

The long summer has happened, the rise of the Others has happened, the evil, cold darkness is starting to descend upon the world, making its way south from beyond the wall (everywhere the WW and wights go, it snows, and it gets dark, and very, very cold).  So far, the predictions have been correct.  We only need to figure out who Azor Ahai is.

 

I think Mel might have provided us with the answer when she tells Jon in ADWD: "I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R’hllor shows me only snow"

Edited June 8, 2014 by WearyTraveler

[blixie]

 

The argument that Aegon will have no impact on the end game does not immediately discount him as a true Targ, though.

 

The entire thing is called a *game* of thrones, if he has no impact THERE why the hell do should I or any other reader care, especially at this late date in the overall story? That was my point I don't CARE if he's real or fake because GRRM hasn't made me interested in him nor given him a POV chapter to convince me he's going to be important in his own right or vis a vis the development of Dany's.  I honestly see ZERO reason to believe he's a genuine Targ though so, and no one is denying it's possible, I'm saying it's uninteresting and aggravating to me as a reader if GRRM invested years of story in the idea of Dany as the true born and last heir of House Targaryen and at the last minute yelled PSYCHE! There is honestly no surer way to end my interest in ASOIAF, than to make Aegon a real blood Targ, and to make him factor overly much in any denouement. The sooner that punk ass dies with or without a reveal about his heritage the better.

[KatWay]

I honestly wouldn't mind if Aegon was real, one because I'm fairly sure he'll die soon-ish anyways, after essentially functioning as someone to do the dirty work so Dany isn't the one who ends up murdering sweet kitten loving Tommen and two, because Dany and Jon are complete fantasy stereotypes anyways, so I don't care if Dany is the only Targaryen heir.

 

I think that's why the two of them are the least interesting POV characters to me (aside from those annoying Ironborn). I'm never really worried they might die, I'm never worried they might not make it to the end of the series, I'm never worried they might go out like Tywin did (a great menacing character with an unexpectedly undignified death). No, if Dany and/or Jon go out, it'll be in a blaze of glory at the end of the series. They're the ultimate fantasy prince and princess. They're rooted in destiny, there are prophecies surrounding their birth and respective meteoric rise, etc., etc. 

 

If any other character had been stabbed down like Jon was at the end of ADWD, I would have been certain they were dead. Because it's GRRM and anyone can die, even long before you think their story should finish. But it's Jon, so...I doubt it. Like if Dany was suddenly killed, I would also just wait for the surprise reveal. Those two aren't dying before the big showdown.

[WearyTraveler]

The entire thing is called a *game* of thrones, if he has no impact THERE why the hell do should I or any other reader care, especially at this late date in the overall story?

 

Actually, the entire thing is called "A Song of Ice and Fire".  Only the first book is called "A Game of Thrones"; although the TV show chose that as the series' name, I think it's important to remember the original title.  Also, I said I thought he had no impact on the end game, not the game of thrones being currently played in Westeros. That's an important distinction.

 

For me, the end game is the battle against the Others (White Walkers and their wight army), not who ends up in the Iron Throne through machinations, alliances, betrayals, and/or political maneuvering.  As much time as the series has invested in showing us that, it has also told us that the common folk really could care less and that they are the ones that suffer the most when the lords play their petty little game.

 

I think the game will become largely inconsequential once the Others begin their attack and Winter truly comes.  The person sitting the IT will not be any of the players scheming and manipulating to get there, but whoever saves the realm from the real threat of utter annihilation that the Others represent.  Targ or not (although most likely it will be a Targ).

 

I think some of us care because he seems to be Varys' bet. Varys has been with us since the very first book and he has been involved in dozens of key plot points, so whatever his plans are and why he came to make the decisions he made are interesting plot points for some of us

 

As for his late appearance in the story, the same can be said about many characters.  Why should we care about Penny's fate? She was a side note in the Purple Wedding and has now suddenly become an active character in book 5.  Why should we care about Doran Martell's plans or the Sand Snakes who were introduced in book 4?  Yet, these characters seem to incite interest amongst many readers.

 

In contrast, we can't say the same thing about the Iron born, who have been with us since the first book (through Theon Greyjoy), and who get their own POV chapters, but who seem to elicit less love from the fans.  Very few people care about the Damphair, Euron, or Victarion.

 

I think caring is a largely subjective thing.  It depends on each person, some stories and some characters will grab them and they can connect with it, some won't, but the timing of their appearance and/or the length of material devoted to them have little to do with it.

 

That was my point I don't CARE if he's real or fake because GRRM hasn't made me interested in him nor given him a POV chapter to convince me he's going to be important in his own right or vis a vis the development of Dany's. 

 

I think the reason Aegon seems to generate such polarized, passionate reactions is a love/identification/connection with Dany's story.  I think some believe that Aegon being a true Targ threatens Dany's triumph, and so, they try their best to see evidence to the contrary.  I find that fascinating.  He could, off course, be a fake.  I'm just saying that sometimes emotional motivations cloud logic, and I'm not excluding myself from that, which is why I try to explore every angle, and have been saying from the start of this discussion that there's no overwhelming, undeniable evidence to confirm or deny Aegon's Targaryen-ness in the ASOIAF series.

 

I honestly see ZERO reason to believe he's a genuine Targ though so, and no one is denying it's possible, I'm saying it's uninteresting and aggravating to me as a reader if GRRM invested years of story in the idea of Dany as the true born and last heir of House Targaryen and at the last minute yelled PSYCHE! There is honestly no surer way to end my interest in ASOIAF, than to make Aegon a real blood Targ, and to make him factor overly much in any denouement. The sooner that punk ass dies with or without a reveal about his heritage the better.

 

I think you're equating Aegon being a real Targaryen with the amount of impact he could have on Dany's play for the Iron throne, when the two are not necessarily related.  Plus, it's not the last minute, we have two more books to go.  It might be three if the more recent interview with Martin is to be believed.  Maybe Aegon is necessary to ride the dragons (they need three riders) and he'll die in the final battle against the Others, maybe Dany can't conquer Westeros with only one dragon with her as the single rider  (the first Targ conqueror, also named Aegon needed three, and still had to do some extra work to bring the Martells into the fold).  Maybe Aegon's heritage is significant to Varys, a character many find intriguing and would like to get to know better.  There are many story possibilities for Aegon that don't lay to waste all the investment in Dany's story.

 

As for yelling PSYCHE! wouldn't that be true if/when the Jon Snow reveal comes? If Rhaegar did make Lyanna his wife, then Jon is a trueborn heir and his claim would come before Dany's.  Would you also be aggravated by that?

 

I don't get aggravated by characters and plot points.  I just follow the story and see where the author takes us.  Granted, I like some stories and some characters more than others, but I just don't like to invest energy in negative feelings.  Before seeing Aegon die, I'd rather see Roose and Ramsay burn, or Littlefinger.  You know, the truly evil, amoral characters.  Aegon is just a boy who may be a bit entitled and blinded by dreams of glory, but he's not evil, nor has he purposely harmed innocent, good people.

 

The only thing that annoys me about this series is Martin's writing pace, more than that is the uncertainty of the timing for the ending.  If he said: "you'll get it in 10 years time", I'd be fine with it.  I just need a reasonably reliable timetable, so I know not to wait for it year after year. LOL!

[Maximum Taco]

As for yelling PSYCHE! wouldn't that be true if/when the Jon Snow reveal comes? If Rhaegar did make Lyanna his wife, then Jon is a trueborn heir and his claim would come before Dany's.  Would you also be aggravated by that?

 

Except Jon forsook all lands and crowns when he took the Night's Watch oath.

 

You don't get out of it because you're a Targaryen, it's the reason why Aemon took the oath in the first place.

 

One thing that will aggravate me is if Jon ends up anywhere but the Wall (or the grave), unless GRRM ends the series with the complete eradication of the Night's Watch. Personally I hate the awful logic of the theory that if he died in ADWD and Mel brings him back with R'hollor kiss magic in TWOW then he is no longer bound by his oath, cause death severed the oath he took. That's bull.

Edited June 9, 2014 by Maximum Taco

[WearyTraveler]

Except Jon forsook all lands and crowns when he took the Night's Watch oath.

 

Which is why I think he would refuse, as he refused Stannis' offer of Winterfell, which he truly wanted.  I don't think Jon would want the Iron throne.  Winterfell was a stronger temptation to him than the realm would be, and he refused that.  But the point was made in reply to a whole different issue and not intended to imply that Jon would make a claim on the IT.

 

You don't get out of it because you're a Targaryen, it's the reason why Aemon took the oath in the first place.

 

No, but you get out of it if a King (or Queen) releases you from the oath (as a dying Daenarys or a dying Aegon could do), or if it is established that you were deceived.  They used that little excuse to annul Joffrey's engagement to Sansa.  Anyone could posit that Jon not knowing his true heritage influenced his decision to take the oath, thus making it invalid.  Aemon, OTOH, knew who he was and what he was giving up.

 

One thing that will aggravate me is if Jon ends up anywhere but the Wall (or the grave), unless GRRM ends the series with the complete eradication of the Night's Watch. Personally I hate the awful logic of the theory that if he died in ADWD and Mel brings him back with R'hollor kiss magic in TWOW then he is no longer bound by his oath, cause death severed the oath he took. That's bull.

 

Maybe the Night's Watch will no longer be needed.  The prophecy doesn't say the coming of the Others is a cyclical thing.  Maybe they'll be eliminated for good this time, thus making the Wall no longer necessary.

 

I didn't know about that theory, but I agree with you that it's crappy, at best.  Beric came back from the dead many times and he still kept his oath to Ned.

[KatWay]

 

One thing that will aggravate me is if Jon ends up anywhere but the Wall (or the grave), unless GRRM ends the series with the complete eradication of the Night's Watch.

 

Well, I kind of expect the Wall to come down at some point so who knows if the Night's Watch will even still exist by the end of the series. At this point I get the feeling Westeros will fall into total chaos before the end and the surviving characters will more or less start again with a blank slate. 

 

Not that I want King Jon of Westeros, mind you. But I also do not want Queen Daenerys of Westeros, swooping in at the 11th hour. She knows so little about it and hasn't even set foot there since the first two years of her life. At this point I'd find an ending where she actually succeeds in ruling some part of Essos and ending slavery for good way more satisfying than her ending on the Iron Throne. 

[Meredith Quill]

@Maximum Taco With respect, why is it bull? I'm genuinely interested why you think that.

Well, I kind of expect the Wall to come down at some point so who knows if the Night's Watch will even still exist by the end of the series. At this point I get the feeling Westeros will fall into total chaos before the end and the surviving characters will more or less start again with a blank slate. 

 

Not that I want King Jon of Westeros, mind you. But I also do not want Queen Daenerys of Westeros, swooping in at the 11th hour. She knows so little about it and hasn't even set foot there since the first two years of her life. At this point I'd find an ending where she actually succeeds in ruling some part of Essos and ending slavery for good way more satisfying than her ending on the Iron Throne. 

 

Do you think we've already met the final winner of the IT? If so, who do you want to see sitting on it? I'm curious.

[Maximum Taco]

@Maximum Taco With respect, why is it bull? I'm genuinely interested why you think that.

 

I think it's a cop out.

 

The creators of the Night's Watch and the people who first endorsed that oath did not do it in a world where resurrection was a thing that was possible. A promise until death was an unbreakable promise. Jon leaving the Watch after resurrection may not be against the letter of the law but it is definitely against the spirit.

 

I've never liked the quibble as a plot device when it's being used by the heroes against the so called "villains." The heroes should not be resorting to dirty tactics to win. And to me Jon is one of the heroes in this story that has very few heroes.

 

In the Merchant of Venice, Shylock was entitled to that pound of flesh, nobody made Antonio agree to the (obviously insane) conditions of the loan, he did it knowing full well that failure to repay would mean death. And then he gets out of it cause "Oh! I didn't say you could take any of my blood!"

 

This is the same, Jon made that pledge knowing that he would be a watchman for the rest of his life. He should be a watchman for the rest of his life. And any subsequent lives he might have.

 

Let's also look at the oath as a whole.

 

Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come.

 

It doesn't say all those promises disappear when he dies, just that his watch ends then. He still promises to take no wife, hold no lands, father no children, wear no crowns, and win no glory.

 

He promises to live at his post, if he dies and is now living again does that nullify his original promise to live at his post? I don't think so.

 

And finally he pledges his life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come. Not all the nights until he dies, but all the nights to come. That, to me, should mean that if he is capable of serving the watch he should be.

Edited June 9, 2014 by Maximum Taco

[blixie]

Jon has already broken his oath in a couple of ways, they decided to elect him Lord Commander anyway. Also yes if the Wall comes down and The Others are defeated I would hope there would be no need of the Watch and all of the men would be released from their oath.

 

 

or me, the end game is the battle against the Others (White Walkers and their wight army), not who ends up in the Iron Throne

 

I think defeating The Others is the real battle more or less, but I also believe who ever leads that charge will sit the Iron Throne and rule Westeros after that battle is won, one is linked to the other. I freely admit I like Jon and I like Dany, I would not have continued to read a series in which they are the prototypical leads if I didn't like both of them, and root for them, but I'm also aware there are lots of characters and a huge canvas, and his universe is nothing if not capricious so yeah any number of characters could ascend even if they had no direct hand in the outcome with the Others.

 

My not being interested in Aegon has little to do with Dany's story really and has everything to do with an ever increasing and expanding character canvas to this story and world, many that I find anywhere from unpleasant to useless (and I DO attribute his continuing to expand that universe as being the primary reason he can't finish this story in two books or possibly ever honestly). While I like Varys say better than LF I certainly don't think his employment of manipulations, lies, and machinations should be any more rewarded than Petyr, or Tywin, or Melisandre.

 

Having said that I don't want them to eliminate Aegon from the show, the character himself I like okay, he's kind of punk bitch, but I do still want to see where this all goes, it's just my expectation that his attempt to invade and Vary's attempt to control the Westerosi universe will go up in flames rather spectacularly, and justly so.

 

As far as Jon goes, I do think he's a Targ by blood, but I don't believe he married Lyanna, and even if he did that it would be valid in a way that would legitimize Jon. Dany's legitimacy is unquestionable, both Jon and Aegon's are.

[Hecate7]

The books never say anything of the kind, but Varys knows Illyrio Mopatis and sends Tyron there.  I think he had the three chess pieces at play (Viserys, Dany and Aegon) and was just waiting to see which one he could use.

 

-----------------------------

 

Since we are asking questions, why do some people think Aegon is fake? Has the book given any indication to that or is it only a theory?  Funnily enough, I remember better the stuff that happened in the first 3 books than in the last two

Well, it's easier to imagine that Illlyrio or someone offered up their child as a fake Aegon AFTER the killing, rather than before. While there are plenty of unwanted babies in King's Landing, I'm sure, Aegon being genuine requires someone having the foresight to know that Gregor is going to come and dash Aegon's brains out etc....and swap out the real Aegon for a false one, either with or without Elia knowing. Some baby got his head smashed in, and for it not to be Aegon means someone got a baby from someone, and substituted him for the real Aegon. That's almost worse than the real Aegon being killed somehow.

 

It means that someone who could have smuggled out Elia and Rhaenys, did not do so, in order that the death of the baby look authentic. If there was time to swap babies, there was also time to just get the whole family to safety, but the swapper made the conscious decision not to. Connington is a genius choice for the fostering, because he would want so much to believe he was raising Rhaegar's son.

Edited June 9, 2014 by Hecate7

[jjjmoss]

I think defeating The Others is the real battle more or less, but I also believe who ever leads that charge will sit the Iron Throne and rule Westeros after that battle is won, one is linked to the other.

 

Of course, Dany could lead the charge and defeat the Others but die in the process. Same with Jon. So that wouldn't be an entirely helpful gauge.

[benteen]

If I can move on to next week's episode for a moment...

 

We are going to finally learn how D and D truly view Stannis next week.  Will Stannis be the hero who saves the Night's Watch or will they have Jon negotiate a peace with Mance only for the evil Stannis to ruin things?

 

They have a LOT to pack in next week.

[WearyTraveler]

As far as Jon goes, I do think he's a Targ by blood, but I don't believe he married Lyanna, and even if he did that it would be valid in a way that would legitimize Jon. Dany's legitimacy is unquestionable, both Jon and Aegon's are.

 

In Westeros, the Targaryens were exempt of many rules that still apply to everyone else, such as marrying a sister, and having multiple wives.  Before Rhaegar the sons of second wives had ruled the kingdom, so, they were considered as legitimate as the sons of first wives. Rhaegar thought he needed to have another child (he says to Elia in Dany's vision that they need one more because the dragon has three heads), but Elia was left barren after birthing Aegon, so why wouldn't he get another wife so he could have the third dragon?

 

I'm thinking someone needs to be alive that knows Jon's heritage, so the reveal can be made.  Howland Reed (Meera and Jojen's father) is the only one that remains alive from those who went to "rescue" Lyanna at the Tower of Joy, but his word alone could not be enough.  The septon that performed the ceremony could be the one who confirms it, and here we have several septons to choose from.

[Greta]

I hope the question of Aegon or fAegon is left unanswered, frankly, just for the fun of the mystery.  I lean towards fake, because I see Varys wanting to start with a clean slate to avoid the high chance of inbred crazy. 

 

However, I'm unconvinced by any arguments about it being important that the baby's head was smashed or that the exact shade of hair had to be obscured by blood. It was probably convenient for Varys, but what exactly where they going to do even if the baby was just stabbed?  Compare it to the many recent photographs of Prince Aegon lying around? Ask for verification from his undoubtedly dead nurse or other dead servants?  Had anyone in Robert's court or the Lannister forces, besides Jaime (unlikely to have paid much attention), ever even seen the baby?  Certainly none of them had seen him (again, besides Jaime) in close to a year, at the very least, during the Rebellion.  Newborns are relatively indistinguishable at any rate, for people who aren't close to them. 

[Lady S.]

OMG this is Brienne, isn't it?! She is gonna bite Sandor's ear off then. Oathkeeper drawn against Needle, fuck.

[Avaleigh]

Now that Aegon has been put on the table, I'd prefer to know whether he's the real deal or not. I don't need the characters at large to know the truth necessarily, but I would like to know because I think it would be lame to spend time setting up this huge game changing character, knowing people would question what sort of twist this might be only to never clarify as though the truth in the story doesn't matter.

As far as next week's episode I'm surprisingly looking forward to Bran's story in particular. Is it foolish of me to be hopeful for a flashback or was the one in episode two our limit for the season?

[benteen]

Holy ****, I think you're right! 

 

I don't know how they're going to explain that one.

[Avaleigh]

Arya is going to think Brienne is working for the Lannisters. The Unsullied are going to be pissed.

Edited June 9, 2014 by Avaleigh

[jjjmoss]

Huh. Well, at least Brienne actually managed to be partially successful on the show then.

[magdalene]

Next week's finale is going to be overloaded with plot. I am guessing Stoneheart has to be cut for this season, how could they possibly fit that in?

 

That does look like Brienne. Wow. So she is going to perform an ear-ectomy on the Hound? Wow.