Television Vs. Book: Why'd They Make [Spoiler] Such A [Spoiler]?

[WearyTraveler]

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I remember Robb despairing Season Three, saying, "I've won every battle, but I'm losing this war." Didn't that mean that the casualties were massive?

No, that meant he was losing strategically.  When he said that his army was still very strong.

[Greta]

There's also the strong possibility that the Northern houses are planning to take out Ramsey but, based on past experience and Jon and Sansa's less than inspiring efforts, don't want a Stark leading either that revenge or them.  I've always been skeptical of the fetishism of the "The North Remembers" storyline by a lot of fans because, while I think some of the mountain men are sincere, I don't think Martin's theme in the overall story is "revenge is awesome and whatever you do is okay as long as you're a designated good guy or supporting said good guys. " Eating your enemies is not a sign of a trustworthy character; isn't it referenced in the same story that established violating guest right as taboo? So Manderly gave a stirring speech about his liege lord and sent Davos off to find Rickon.  A) Manderly and his family had just put on a stirring show for the Freys too.  B)A four year old liege lord won't be anything but an easily controlled symbol.  

If the Lannisters have "The Rains of Castamere,"  do the Manderlys have a cookbook?

[WearyTraveler]

9 minutes ago, Greta said:

There's also the strong possibility that the Northern houses are planning to take out Ramsey but, based on past experience and Jon and Sansa's less than inspiring efforts, don't want a Stark leading either that revenge or them.  I've always been skeptical of the fetishism of the "The North Remembers" storyline by a lot of fans because, while I think some of the mountain men are sincere, I don't think Martin's theme in the overall story is "revenge is awesome and whatever you do is okay as long as you're a designated good guy or supporting said good guys. " Eating your enemies is not a sign of a trustworthy character; isn't it referenced in the same story that established violating guest right as taboo? So Manderly gave a stirring speech about his liege lord and sent Davos off to find Rickon.  A) Manderly and his family had just put on a stirring show for the Freys too.  B)A four year old liege lord won't be anything but an easily controlled symbol.  

If the Lannisters have "The Rains of Castamere,"  do the Manderlys have a cookbook?

It is, but Bran, who is the one remembering the story of the Rat Cook as told by Old Nan, says the cook was turned into a rat not for cooking and serving people (the guy's son, at that), but for violating guest right. Therefore establishing that in Westeros, the bigger crime is to violate guest right, not cannibalism or killing a human being and serving him/her to another human being.

Edited June 10, 2016 by WearyTraveler

[Greta]

True, but that doesn't make cannibalism okay or indicate that people who practice it don't have some serious moral failings.  That there's a lot wrong with Westeros social mores is, I think,one of the major themes of ASOIAF.

[WearyTraveler]

12 minutes ago, Greta said:

True, but that doesn't make cannibalism okay or indicate that people who practice it don't have some serious moral failings.  That there's a lot wrong with Westeros social mores is, I think,one of the major themes of ASOIAF.

Agreed, that's why I underlined "in Westeros".  I think it's only natural for fans to cheer Manderly's actions after what the Freys did to basically a lot of innocent people.  Obviously, that's not ok in real life.  But it's understandable that readers might like Manderly's actions in the context of this world where they definitely don't live by the rules we have in real life. The story up to the point where we realize Manderly is making Frey pies was misery on top of misery and no justice for the Starks, the justice system in Westeros is horrible, so it seems that unless someone takes the sort of actions that Manderly takes, there's no justice for the "good" characters.

So, I get the support, in this world, and in this situation.

Edited June 10, 2016 by WearyTraveler

[benteen]

That's very true about Jon being dumbed down on the show when it comes to the North.  Mind you, his unearned "I'm right and everyone who thinks differently is a moron" arrogance in ADWD was something I didn't care for but Jon's the complete opposite on the show and it does him no favors.  He doesn't stand up for himself at all when he's verbally challenged.  I'm willing to put some of the blame on his character's return from the dead (the consequences of which to him having even begun to be developed yet) but his character's unwillingness to forcefully defend his point goes back to last season when he was the Lord Command of the Night's Watch.  Becoming a leader is more that just fighting battles and Jon seems woefully behind on the other aspects of that.

[nksarmi]

3 hours ago, benteen said:

That's very true about Jon being dumbed down on the show when it comes to the North.  Mind you, his unearned "I'm right and everyone who thinks differently is a moron" arrogance in ADWD was something I didn't care for but Jon's the complete opposite on the show and it does him no favors.  He doesn't stand up for himself at all when he's verbally challenged.  I'm willing to put some of the blame on his character's return from the dead (the consequences of which to him having even begun to be developed yet) but his character's unwillingness to forcefully defend his point goes back to last season when he was the Lord Command of the Night's Watch.  Becoming a leader is more that just fighting battles and Jon seems woefully behind on the other aspects of that.

I'm willing to chalk this up to him having to interact with Lords again and falling back into "bastard" status. He had no problem dealing with the Wildlings.

[sunflower]

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 falling back into "bastard" status

I'm willing to go with that as he wasn't LC of the Night's Watch for long, but I feel there's not enough character beats for Jon post-resurrection.  I really wish GoT did 13 episode seasons, the extra 3 eps would provide much needed connective tissue between plot and character.  D and D say not enough time, but why couldn't they take time, and have every season come out every 15-16 months  instead of every 12 months.  This series is complicated enough to deserve the time taken to do it at least semi-right.  I can't wait for book 6, let's do this GRRM!

[screamin]

This is from way back in this thread, but...

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Check the criticisms section of that Wiki page on the Westermarck Effect theory cited though and you'll see there have been studies showing that the Westermarck Effect is a purely social construct. 

IIRC, a lot of the studies documenting the Westermarck effect were done among kibbutz children, who were not genetically related to each other but raised together in the same (communal) household since babyhood. They almost never took romantic interest in each other - the exception was when other children joined the kibbutz after the age of 10. Now since the kids weren't genetically related to each other there was no social taboo against their marrying - it just seems that if you've lived in the same household with kids near your own age since you were all in diapers, you tend not to be attracted to them that way. So I wouldn't give a whole lot of weight to the criticism section of that wiki page about "social pressure."
 

[Winnief]

Yeah well whether the Westermarck effect is real or not in OUR world, may not be relevant in the world of Westeros, where Twincest got the whole ball rolling on the entire plot, and where the Targaryen's (and Valyrians!) made a regular habit of marrying their siblings.  And Jon *is* half Targ.  Which doesn't mean it will ever happen, but I wouldn't rule it out on the *assumption* that Martin has ever even *heard* of the Westermarck effect when planning the books.

[Advance35]

Biggest takeaway from this episode for me?  I know longer think Rickon is going to inherit Winterfell.  I thought he would be the "Stark" in the end and that was why he was kept off-page for the majority of books but now.......Either he doesn't make it out of Skagos alive (despite) Davos's best efforts OR he is killed when he gets back to Westeros during either by Otherpocalypse or the Northern Game of Thrones.

It's also striking how, retribution hungry the television version of Sansa is.  That's not something we too much of in the books.   She wants Joffrey dead and Walder Frey but the television version seems to take such a cold comfort in watching her enemies get their comeuppance.  Her smile was chilling.  I'm more curious about Sansa's endgame then ever.  I don't thinks she'll be allowed to just sit in Winterfell for the next 2 seasons.  And I think being in the North is a bad deal for any and everyone, since it will be the first place overrun when the Others breach the wall.

Questions, Questions.

[vibeology]

I think with this episode Sansa is back on track with her book storyline. I assume that she was chilling in the Vale making allies and gaining power and when word got to her that Jon was in trouble, she convinced/manipulated/asked Robin or Harry to fight for her and she used the Vale armies to turn the tide of the battle. Her walking into Winterfell was the first time she reunites with Jon and from here on out, her plot will be more like the book.

And yes, I think Rickon is going to get killed before Jon and Sansa retake Winterfell because otherwise he'd have the claim.

[benteen]

I still don't know about Rickon dying.  I think Davos is more likely to die when it comes to retrieving Rickon from Skagos although I hope I'm wrong on that one.  I also hope Robett Glover is along with Davos for the trip...I like getting to know more of the Northern followers on the Starks and not their odious television counterparts.

Though I think Sansa using Harry/Robin to ride into Winterfell does make sense to me.

[SeanC]

1 hour ago, vibeology said:

I think with this episode Sansa is back on track with her book storyline. I assume that she was chilling in the Vale making allies and gaining power and when word got to her that Jon was in trouble, she convinced/manipulated/asked Robin or Harry to fight for her and she used the Vale armies to turn the tide of the battle. Her walking into Winterfell was the first time she reunites with Jon and from here on out, her plot will be more like the book.

I'm still unsure about that, just because while I'm sure the pace of the plots will really pick up in TWOW (pretty much all of the chapters that have been released are ADWD holdovers), I have a hard time seeing how the Vale plotline could move so quickly as to get them to Winterfell in time to intervene in whatever battle is happening there.  It feels like if that's where this is headed, Sansa's AFFC plotline should have advanced more than it did.

[nksarmi]

Well it kind of depends on how many battles happen at Winterfell. Will Jon be resurrected and join Stannis and fight together? Or will it happen like the show and Stannis' attempt will fail just for Jon to follow and succeed? If it's two battles, Sansa has time to hear about the first fight and then get the Vale involved for the second battle. What if it becomes public that it was Jeyne Poole as fake Ayra and Sansa hears of that? That could be enough for her to want to get involved. I mean it's going to be a 1,000-page book so there will probably IS time to get her involved by the end of the novel.

[SeanC]

There's a ton of variables (how many chapters she has would be a big one, and if they do go North obviously she'd cross over into other characters' chapters), so it obviously could happen.  Just, based on what we know, we've already got Alayne I.  It seems fairly strongly implied that Alayne II is going to be the tourney that's been so talked-up, where something will happen.  Either somebody dies, and/or Shadrich tries to abduct her -- on the latter count, I can only see him failing but in failing exposing her identity to more people, because her being kidnapped again is such a narrative dead-end (and this is an area where the show is useful; if Sansa would going to be dragged back to King's Landing or whatever, no way would the writers have cut that).  Maybe with her identity exposed prematurely Littlefinger has to reshuffle his plans and events proceed much more rapidly?

[Winnief]

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Maybe with her identity exposed prematurely Littlefinger has to reshuffle his plans and events proceed much more rapidly?

Quite possibly.  I wonder if Martin didn't write himself into a 'dead end' a bit with the Vale storyline which while it was useful for Sansa's character growth may not be so crucial vis a vis other plotlines.  I guess we'd have to wait for Book Six to find out.

 

And I think the role of LSH in the books is being divided between the Stark sisters, noting how more vengeful Show Sansa is than in the books.

[benteen]

Littlefinger has seen a giant now although I doubt he puts any stock in the White Walkers.  This is going to be a problem for Jon and Sansa going forward.

[nksarmi]

Well with only two seasons and 13 episodes left - I don't think believing in the Others is going to be a problem for anyone in Westerous for too much longer. It's kind of like dragons - once you see one, your world view changes forever. I was just amazed that the Maesters really didn't understand that without taking out her dragons, they would never beat Dany.

I regards to the book vs the show, I wonder how much of an advisor Tyrion will be in the books. I think he definitely got the Barristar story this season, but the way he councils her in politics on the show isn't something Selmy could do. I think we might be heading for a Tyrion/Sansa reunion on the show at the very least and personally, I can't wait.

I can imagine him greeting her as his wife and comparing how they both left KL as fugitives but have risen to power again. On the show at least, she thinks well of him. I'd be amused if they brokered the arrangement for Dany and Jon to work together.

[ulkis]

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I think I'm in the minority, but I think it's way too early to introduce Lady Stoneheart. I feel like it should be one of the mini-climaxes next season - maybe E4 or E5.

I'm glad she never got included (as of yet), imo her introduction in book 3 was one of the first signs that GRRM was just expanding the story unnecessarily. 

Edited June 22, 2016 by ulkis

[ulkis]

On 6/12/2016 at 0:48 PM, sunflower said:

I'm willing to go with that as he wasn't LC of the Night's Watch for long, but I feel there's not enough character beats for Jon post-resurrection.  I really wish GoT did 13 episode seasons, the extra 3 eps would provide much needed connective tissue between plot and character.  D and D say not enough time, but why couldn't they take time, and have every season come out every 15-16 months  instead of every 12 months.  This series is complicated enough to deserve the time taken to do it at least semi-right.  I can't wait for book 6, let's do this GRRM!

imo this is one of the reasons they a) should have decided to plan their own end game from the start instead of trying to line up with the books while GRRM finished book 6 or b) waited until the series was done, and since b) doesn't look very likely, they should have gone with a) from the start. I don't know if I'm being very clear. But I think it would be very possible to do GoT on a ten episode schedule if they knew where their end game was from the start. I know they said that GRRM told them how he was going to end it from the start just in case but I still got the impression they were kinda hesitant to go off on their own completely until book 6 came out, until they realized they were going to get there before Martin published it.

I think 15-16 months would be too long a wait. 

[benteen]

Martin has proven to be completely unreliable when it comes to getting his books done and D&D would have had to wait forever on GRRM's "Don't push me, I'm coming" style of writing.  I respect that they gave him time but literally nothing can move GRRM into finishing his books.

[Notwisconsin]

The Paperbacks for the last two books have been split into parts one and two each. Why can't they just do THAT and let GRRM go at his own pace for TWoW part 2?

[WearyTraveler]

51 minutes ago, Notwisconsin said:

The Paperbacks for the last two books have been split into parts one and two each. Why can't they just do THAT and let GRRM go at his own pace for TWoW part 2?

I suppose because a book has to have a basic structure, narratively speaking.  You really can't stop a story in the middle.  If you look at the ending of every book, it was set-up for the continuation. I don't know that I'm explaining myself clearly.  It's like having a conversation.  The whole story is the entire conversation.  Each book is a sentence in that conversation.  You can't stop mid-sentence and expect people to understand your message.  You have to finish the sentence, and then the conversation will continue with the next sentence.

I hope that makes sense.

[nodorothyparker]

15 hours ago, ulkis said:

I know they said that GRRM told them how he was going to end it from the start just in case but I still got the impression they were kinda hesitant to go off on their own completely until book 6 came out, until they realized they were going to get there before Martin published it.

 

This was my impression of most of season 5 and why it was so weak at times.  I got the sense when first watching it and still do now that they knew all the big points from DWD they wanted to hit but were otherwise doing a lot of stalling to not shoot too far past DWD's end to give Martin one last shot at telling at least that part of the story first since it had been painfully obvious for some time that the show ending was going to come years before his.  This was when we were still being led to believe up, down, and sideways that Martin realistically thought he would be releasing Winds of Winter before season 6 started.

Edited June 22, 2016 by nodorothyparker

[vibeology]

Agreed. I think as much as D&D get crapped on by many fans, I do think they like the books and they like Martin's story and want to see it play out. I don't know if I agree with all their interpretations of the books, but I do believe that they enjoy the story and were trying to delay as many plots as possible until Winds of Winter was released so that people who love the books could enjoy the book unspoiled and so that they could use the extra details from the book to further build their own story. It's only this season when it was clear that we're not going to see Winds of Winter until the show is well passed that point (I'm being hopeful and probably unrealistic thinking we might see it before the start of season 8) that they were willing to just jump into the major plot points and adapt around the changes they've made. Only Cersei is still close to the last place we saw her in the books though a few very predictable steps ahead and I wouldn't be surprised to see her cross her Rubicon before the season is done in terms of leaving the books behind with her trial looming.

Compared to last season where several plots have been treading water (Arya doing the same thing in Bravos over and over, Dorne, cutting out Bran, locking Sansa in a rape tower, the Wall plot which was all from the books, etc) the show did it's very best to wait for Martin but they're just running out of episodes and have to get the endgame rolling. Of all my issues with D&D, I do think they tried to give Martin time and tried to save the fun of reading the books. When the show started it was just before the release of Dance. It's been five years; who can blame D&D for thinking they'd given him enough time?

[yellowfred]

On 6/20/2016 at 1:12 PM, nksarmi said:

If it's two battles, Sansa has time to hear about the first fight and then get the Vale involved for the second battle. What if it becomes public that it was Jeyne Poole as fake Ayra and Sansa hears of that? That could be enough for her to want to get involved.

That would pretty much be my ideal scenario, though I feel like she would more likely find out about Jeyne after going to help Jon take back Winterfell, which would then cause the break between her and Littlefinger.  In the books, she's wary of him, on some levels, but the two of them are still basically a team.  So, unless the show decided to go in a wildly different direction with her character (which, granted, would not be entirely unprecedented), it seems like book!Sansa is due to find out something that will stop her from viewing Littlefinger as an ally.  I figure it's either going to be what he did to Jeyne or what he did to Ned, and Jeyne's definitely the more feasible of the two.

[benteen]

If Sansa finds out what LF did to Jeyne, I do think that would be enough for her to realize what an evil scumbag he really is.

[Advance35]

Alright, so for me, this episode answered SO many questions.  Sorry GRRM, you should have gotten a move on.

It's clear Jaimie will survive his encounter with Lady Stoneheart.  I don't know how, it will clearly be shenanigans.   Maybe Brienne kills her before LS can kill Jaimie, but he will make it back to Kings Landing.

House Tyrell WILL be extinct by the time all this is over.  My guess is Cersei will kill every Tyrell in Kings Landing and we'll see Olenna pledging Tyrell resources to Aegon and company, despite the fact that he will likely be betrothed to Arianne Martell.  I don't know how Willas and Garlan will factor into all this, maybe they will show up to Kings Landing for Margery's trial and be killed at the end of TWOW.

I think the show mirrored the books in that a cast of characters will be Jon, Sansa, Davos, Northern Lords and LF.   I think after Martin does his "gardening" for a time, or  maybe at the end of TWOW this will be the Northern Cast going into the Last book.

And clearly Cersei WILL sit on the Iron Throne which is what she's always wanted.  It just cost her Tommen whom I think she mourns in her own way.   I think with Cersei, grief is mutated into fury and that's how she processes.

I can't even talk about this episode I'm so stunned.

[Winnief]

House Tyrell WILL go extinct, (Sob-I always liked them,) though maybe not in the same fashion as on the show; perhaps they're killed in the upcoming battle with the IB or assassinated by other parties.  But Roses can't survive the Long Winter. 

And Cersei WILL take the IT, though, she can't possibly hold it. 

And Jaime is definitely the Valonqar. 

 

But one reason there's so much death in the South, is that the NORTH is where all the major action is heading.  Jon/Sansa whether as a ship or not ARE clearly going to be a power duo up at WF in the days ahead.

 

 

The big question now is, HOW will the Wall come down?!?

[benteen]

I'm not sure what Arya's role is going forward.  I guess she has taken up the Lady Stoneheart role in a way and I suspect she'll be reunited with Nymeria soon.  But where does she go from here?  She's not a general and she's not marrying anyone.  Does she lead a campaign to tame the Riverlands and bring them under House Stark?

[Winnief]

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She's not a general and she's not marrying anyone.  Does she lead a campaign to tame the Riverlands and bring them under House Stark?

Quite possibly.  Or maybe fighting to restore Riverrun to Edmure.

Best of all she may end up heading up North to re-unite with Jon, Sansa, Bran, and the Hound...and where all the REAL action is anyway!

[SeanC]

26 minutes ago, Winnief said:

House Tyrell WILL go extinct, (Sob-I always liked them,) though maybe not in the same fashion as on the show; perhaps they're killed in the upcoming battle with the IB or assassinated by other parties.  But Roses can't survive the Long Winter. 

There are a lot more Tyrells in the books, admittedly.  For that matter, there may be in the show too, though Olenna clearly runs Highgarden now.

The omission of Robb's will is rather noticeable in the resolution to the Northern plotline (and also, probably, the fact that the storyline has been changed to have Sansa sitting right there and both of them knowing that Bran is still alive).

[Notwisconsin]

Willas Tyrell won't be in the TV show, but he's in the books and therefore there's a good chance the house won't go extinct if D&D got the nuking of the Sept of Baylor from GRRM.

[Winnief]

I had the feeling from the books that they were setting it up for House Tarly to be the new Paramount Lords of the Reach. 

[benteen]

15 minutes ago, Winnief said:

I had the feeling from the books that they were setting it up for House Tarly to be the new Paramount Lords of the Reach. 

Agreed.  I wonder if we'll see Randyll more on the show since Olenna is going to need someone to lead her forces.

[SeanC]

Olenna meeting Daenerys should be interesting.

From an adaptation perspective, Jon/Dany is something I always felt was the sort of narrative development that might be in the cards despite seeming too predictable.  When we got GRRM's original outline, I was in turn surprised that it seems Jon/Arya was the original OTP (unless it was heading for a Jon/Arya/Dany threesome, akin to the original Aegon/Visenya/Rhaenys), and thought perhaps the likelihood had been overestimated.

But 610 cast aside Daario with the explicit justification that Dany might need to marry for alliance purposes.  On the show, the list of eligible gentlemen is pretty damn short.  The show!Tyrells and Martells don't have anybody (and Dany already has their support anyway), the Lannisters are going to get crushed under Dany's bootheel, and she's clearly indicated her disinterest in Euron's "big cock".  In terms of the show's main cast, you've basically got Jon, Robin, and Littlefinger.  Robin is too minor a character, and one-dimensional; Dany's got several advisors now who would warn her off Littlefinger, even if she was otherwise open to it; that pretty much leaves Jon.

Edited June 27, 2016 by SeanC

[nksarmi]

Yeah they ended this last episode in such a way that I couldn't help but think, well, damn it might very well be Jon and Dany in the end. I always conceded that Song of Ice and Fire could mean the Song of Jon and Dany coming together to defeat the Others and rule the 7 kingdoms. I let that idea go at one point, but it sure looks like they might head back in that direction.

[Winnief]

Quote

From an adaptation perspective, Jon/Dany is something I always felt was the sort of narrative development that might be in the cards despite seeming too predictable.  When we got GRRM's original outline, I was in turn surprised that it seems Jon/Arya was the original OTP (unless it was heading for a Jon/Arya/Dany threesome, akin to the original Aegon/Visenya/Rhaenys), and thought perhaps the likelihood had been overestimated.

For a while, I thought that maybe Martin had transferred Arya's romantic role to Sansa.  But maybe he just decided to scrap that whole plot altogether, (unless Jon DOES go for a threesome with Dany as Visenya and Sansa as Rhaenys,) for various reasons.  Still Jon/Dany would have the 'ick' factor of Aunt marrying Nephew and even apart from that, I just don't *like* the pairing.  But it would make a LOT of political sense and it might well happen.  It's certainly up for consideration and something that will come up when Dany does reach Westeros and meets Jon.

 

Another wild possibility though, is Dany/Tyrion since he IS now the rightful Lord of Casterly Rock.  Which frankly I would like better than Dany/Jon mostly because Clarke and Dinklage are so awesome on screen together.  Though, it does seem pretty unlikely I admit. 

[Eyes High]

It would be a return to manipulative Book Tyrion form if he was in love with her and only advised Dany to cast Daario aside to get rid of a rival. I'm not sure TV Tyrion thinks that way, but it would be pretty funny if he had an ulterior motive for offering that particular advice.

I was picking up some serious "Tyrion loves Dany" vibes from his thoughtful, sad look when he remarked that Daario wouldn't be the last to love Dany. It could be read as an "Oh, shit" moment where he realizes that he's in love with her. Maybe someday he, Daario and Jorah can form an Unrequited Lovers of Daenerys support group.

[Advance35]

I wonder how they are going to handle the succession portion of the whole thing.   Are they just going to magically cure Dany of her inability to have children?   The show is moving more and more towards the fantastic, which traditionally, has been my least favorite part of the story but I guess we'll see.  Maybe the "Game" portion will be Dany choosing an heir.

[SeanC]

On a minor note, the "wight Tommen" theory for the valonqar's identity gets pretty decisively ruled out, as Cersei ordered his body burnt into ash.

[Minneapple]

1 hour ago, Advance35 said:

I wonder how they are going to handle the succession portion of the whole thing.   Are they just going to magically cure Dany of her inability to have children?   The show is moving more and more towards the fantastic, which traditionally, has been my least favorite part of the story but I guess we'll see.  Maybe the "Game" portion will be Dany choosing an heir.

In ADWD, it's strongly implied that Dany had a miscarriage, so maybe they'll bring that on to the show somehow. 

[jellysalmon]

I'm hoping that House Tyrell in the books isn't completely wiped out, even if they're not longer Lords Paramount of Highgarden. Even if Margaery goes down (and I hope she doesn't), there are two others. Willas Tyrell in particular I want to see. It doesn't look great for them by the end of DwD, but I'm hoping we get a Tyrell POV character of some sort.

Also, from GRRM:

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And in the Tyrell family, Loras is not the eldest son in the books. There are two older brothers, Willas and Garlan. I didn’t just put them in for hoots and giggles, they have roles to play in the last two books, and they don’t exist in the show. I’ve said from the start I wish we had more hours, but showrunners [David Benioff and Dan Weiss] work 24/7, 12 months a year.

[Alapaki]

4 hours ago, Advance35 said:

I wonder how they are going to handle the succession portion of the whole thing.   Are they just going to magically cure Dany of her inability to have children?   The show is moving more and more towards the fantastic, which traditionally, has been my least favorite part of the story but I guess we'll see.  Maybe the "Game" portion will be Dany choosing an heir.

With a war involving ice zombies and flying fire-breathing dragons, I don't think we can rule out some sort of magic which comes to play in the endgame making the "sun rise in the west" and all the other stuff that would have to happen before Dany can have a baby.

At this point, I think there are decent odds that GRRM doesn't bother releasing the last two books.  He's already got enough money to not work another day in his life.  But more importantly, how does he make compelling endings for book-loose-ends that have now been tied up on the show, etc.?  Will he declare (much like Disney/Lucasfilm did before releasing the new sequels, that certain show stuff is now "non-canon"?  Will he just present the last two books as a sort of alternate-universe story of how it could've turned out?

[benteen]

I think GRRM releases The Winds of Winter but I don't think A Dream of Spring sees the light of day.  Some serious wind was taken out of the sails of the future books now that the show has shot ahead of them.  One thing I think the show did a great job was resetting the game of thrones to be interesting again with Stark, Lannister and Targaryen as the main players again.  I don't think GRRM is going to get the war back in that interesting place in the books.

[Umbelina]

21 hours ago, Winnief said:

 

 

 

The big question now is, HOW will the Wall come down?!?

Bran.  ??

Another reason Bran probably shouldn't go to Winterfell, apparently he wrecks magic protections. 

[Hecate7]

7 hours ago, Minneapple said:

In ADWD, it's strongly implied that Dany had a miscarriage, so maybe they'll bring that on to the show somehow. 

Doesn't matter. Mirri Muz Dur didn't say Dany couldn't have miscarriages. She said "when you bear a LIVING child." There's no limit to the number of dead ones Dany can have. In the end the prophecy will probably be fulfilled in some kind of spectacular way.

Edited June 28, 2016 by Hecate7

[Minneapple]

A lot of the "Dany can't have a child" theories say she can't get pregnant. If she can have a miscarriage, she can get pregnant. Also, Mirri Maz Duur didn't say Dany can NEVER have a child.

Quote

 

"When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east," said Mirri Maz Duur. "When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before."

 

I don't know if GRRM would inflict a Dany pregnancy on us (or if the show would do that to us, which might be worse given how TV writers usually treat pregnancy), but I think there's a teeny chance it could happen.

[Umbelina]

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Prophecies/Entry/1799

Or the prophesy has already or is in the process of being fulfilled.  GRRM said

Spoiler

never to take the prophesies as gospel anyway. 

Not a real show or book true spoiler, just something he said about prophesies, tagging it for caution.