Television Vs. Book: Why'd They Make [Spoiler] Such A [Spoiler]?

[glowbug]

Theon was 10 when he came to live with the Starks, and he was not raised as a sibling to them. He was a ward and they were all aware of that. I, too, wouldn't have had any issue with Theon marrying one of the Stark girls if he hadn't been such an awful person. I don't see Theon and Jon as being the same situation.

Not being particularly close to a sibling does not erase the ick factor for me. They still thought of each other as half siblings. I just don't know anyone who wasn't particularly close to their sibling who would ever consider dating them if it turned out they weren't related. While they were never particularly close Sansa and Jon must have spent some time together growing up seeing as how they were both at Winterfell. It was pointed out in another thread that Jon was allowed to eat with the family and such when important guests weren't dining with the family. Just because the story starts right before they part ways doesn't mean the history isn't there. People are free not to have a problem with Jon ending up with one of his sister-cousins (I'm aware some even ship Jon with Arya) I just won't be one of them. 

[nksarmi]

13 minutes ago, glowbug said:

Theon was 10 when he came to live with the Starks, and he was not raised as a sibling to them. He was a ward and they were all aware of that. I, too, wouldn't have had any issue with Theon marrying one of the Stark girls if he hadn't been such an awful person. I don't see Theon and Jon as being the same situation.

Not being particularly close to a sibling does not erase the ick factor for me. They still thought of each other as half siblings. I just don't know anyone who wasn't particularly close to their sibling who would ever consider dating them if it turned out they weren't related. While they were never particularly close Sansa and Jon must have spent some time together growing up seeing as how they were both at Winterfell. It was pointed out in another thread that Jon was allowed to eat with the family and such when important guests weren't dining with the family. Just because the story starts right before they part ways doesn't mean the history isn't there. People are free not to have a problem with Jon ending up with one of his sister-cousins (I'm aware some even ship Jon with Arya) I just won't be one of them. 

Ok but consider that in show Sansa was like 13 and Jon was like 15 and they have since been apart for years. Also given Catlyn's rather extreme dislike of Jon and the fact that Sansa might be the only one of the children who was closer to their mother than their father - I think there is room to say that in the 10 years or so they would have grown up around each other, it is very unlikely that Sansa ever viewed Jon any differently than she viewed Theon.

Like I said - I think it is a VERY different story when it comes to Arya, who clearly loves Jon as a brother.

I'm not saying it won't "ick" some people out - I just think it might be what GRRM is going to do and therefore the show has done everything they can to minimize that reaction for people. To me, that includes trying to both "normalize" Jamie and Cersei through his Dorne story last season and Marcella being all like "I'm so happy you are my dad!" and keeping them together this season when they should be growing apart. Maybe they had other reasons for keeping Jamie and Cersei together - but I'm convinced it's for viewers to contrast Jon and Sansa with and decide well, at least it's not that bad..

[armadillo1224]

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Ok but consider that in show Sansa was like 13 and Jon was like 15 and they have since been apart for years. 

They've only been apart for two years at most. I don't think that's much, compared to a whole childhood of viewing each other as siblings. There's an actual psychological effect (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westermarck_effect) that is believed to exist between any two people who are raised from birth in the same home that makes the notion of incest so intrinsically distasteful to most people (assuming a normal dynamic). Even if Sansa didn't feel close to Jon or he to her, it really just doesn't gel with my understanding of how human nature and families work for them to even be able to feel attracted to each other. The whole thing just feels wrong to me and I know that it will to many, many viewers, if it's the direction they choose to go in. Though I really doubt they will.

[Chris24601]

Check the criticisms section of that Wiki page on the Westermarck Effect theory cited though and you'll see there have been studies showing that the Westermarck Effect is a purely social construct. Absent social pressure to not do so, children growing up in close proximity from a young age will develop sexual interest in each other.

Americans are conditioned by our decentralized nuclear family units to think its the norm throughout both space and time, but for most of human history we lived in small communities of extended families who never travelled more than 20 miles from where they were born.

So for most of human history people did grow up in close proximity to their future spouses (who were more than likely some degree of cousin) with no inhibited sexual desire at all.

The fact that Petyr had a thing for Cat and Lysa had a thing for Petyr despite their growing up together points to a lack of the social pressures that would lead to the Westermarck effect coming into play.

Indeed, given the degree of fostering and political unions among the nobility, I would surmise that the social pressures would NOT promote the Westermarck Effect. Indeed, the norm is being raised knowing you were never going to have a say in who you were going to marry and so you may as well make the best of it.

Jon probably won't be put off because he's a Targ and they're into that. Sansa won't be put off because she's been raised her entire life knowing she wouldn't have a choice of who she married and compared to the creepers and the people she has actually been married off to Jon is more than she could dare hope for.

What 21st Century Americans find icky does not make it universally icky throughout all time.

[nksarmi]

Well if we want to talk about things I find icky - or rather unbelievable - I'd include GRRM writing the story with Ygritte and Jon (at 15 in the books I think) as it being some kind of huge shocker that he was still a virgin. I'm not naive enough to think most 15 year old boys don't want to have sex, but I had a lot of guy friends growing up and I know most of them were not bedding their girlfriends at that age - not matter how badly they wanted to.  I also find it equally bewildering that Dany at all of 14 or so actually seduced her husband Drogo and changed their entire dynamic through sex. I don't know many grown women who are that good (I should actually say confident and I know women are becoming more sexually demonstrative but in my experience - that seems to come later in life not as a teenage bride) in bed, let alone a teenage girl.

So I am fully accepting of the fact that GRRM nor the show based on his work is going to leverage my values in its romantic pairings. I'm just saying that after all the other things that GRRM or the show has asked me to accept - to be perfectly honest, Jon and Sansa wouldn't even crack my top five of WTF? moments. Of course, everyone's millage may vary and all that.

Edited May 29, 2016 by nksarmi

[FemmyV]

It's all moot, anyway. It's fiction and we don't get a vote, that's the #1 thing. #2, we've had Cersei/Jamie from the first episode, even been shown them going at it several times now. Is it just because they're the "bad guys" they get mass acceptance, or is it because it was already happening when the story began?

[nksarmi]

1 minute ago, FemmyV said:

It's all moot, anyway. It's fiction and we don't get a vote, that's the #1 thing. #2, we've had Cersei/Jamie from the first episode, even been shown them going at it several times now. Is it just because they're the "bad guys" they get mass acceptance, or is it because it was already happening when the story began?

What I found the most interesting about the show's adaptation is that they have not just been shown going at it, but they went through the trouble of doing the Dorne "the heart wants what the heart wants" and Myrcella's "I'm glad you're my dad even though it would invalidate my status as a princess and my brother's claim on the throne or and yea, it's kind of gross too" speech to Jamie last season. I mean, I feel like they have gone out of their way to mainstream Jamie and Cersei. There are a few snide comments in KL right now, but no one on this show has ever reacted with the "oh my - holy crap - seriously WTF?" response one would expect. No one. I think that alone has made me more accepting of the idea that they might do Jon and Sansa more than anything I've seen in their actual story.

[armadillo1224]

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Absent social pressure to not do so, children growing up in close proximity from a young age will develop sexual interest in each other.

Wait, are you saying that the only reason modern siblings do not develop sexual interest in each other is because of social pressure? I feel like that's a rather bizarre assertion. Sibling incest has been taboo in almost every known society--it's hardly some new-fangled 21st century thing. The cousin incest taboo is relatively new but that's a different matter.

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It's all moot, anyway. It's fiction and we don't get a vote, that's the #1 thing. #2, we've had Cersei/Jamie from the first episode, even been shown them going at it several times now. Is it just because they're the "bad guys" they get mass acceptance, or is it because it was already happening when the story began?

In the books, I think it's accepted simply because it makes sense. Their attraction to each other is a reflection of their narcissism and it's never sold as some sort of great love story but rather something incredibly screwed-up and dysfunctional. I feel like there's an implication that Cersei is an innately evil person in the books basically from birth (just look at that story about her pushing her friend in the well or twisting Tyrion's penis) and she seduces Jaime into this evil, dark love affair that is extremely bad for him. So, I think it's easier to accept just because it's portrayed as one villainous and one formerly villainous character doing something bad and wrong.

In the show, I'm not really sure what they're doing. I don't think they view the twincest as something positive or healthy or romantic but I think they just don't have the time to devote to that storyline right now to break them up (as they are in the books at this point) so it's become part of the show's baseline reality. I don't know very many people who would even view the TV version of the relationship as a great love story, even if is not as overtly fucked up. It's just there and because it's been there for six seasons, it's no longer shocking.

Edited May 29, 2016 by armadillo1224

[Oscirus]

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I'm not saying it won't "ick" some people out - I just think it might be what GRRM is going to do and therefore the show has done everything they can to minimize that reaction for people. To me, that includes trying to both "normalize" Jamie and Cersei through his Dorne story last season and Marcella being all like "I'm so happy you are my dad!" and keeping them together this season when they should be growing apart. Maybe they had other reasons for keeping Jamie and Cersei together - but I'm convinced it's for viewers to contrast Jon and Sansa with and decide well, at least it's not that bad..

I don't really think the show's producers care about ick factor. They took a girl that's grown up around us and had her raped, they had a brother "have sex" with his sister at their dead child's funeral, hell, they showed another underaged kid have sex with a grown woman. My real problem with a Jon-Sansa romance is not the ick factor, that the show's producers seemingly don't care about, but the fact that they haven't developed any kind of relationship between the two.

Don't want to build up a brother-sister relationship? Build up an antagonistic relationship or even an aloof one where they show Sansa purposely ignoring Jon ( which would've definitely worked to justify her apology).  If a romantic relationship formed between those two, it would definitely feel rushed.

[Chris24601]

5 hours ago, armadillo1224 said:

Wait, are you saying that the only reason modern siblings do not develop sexual interest in each other is because of social pressure? I feel like that's a rather bizarre assertion. Sibling incest has been taboo in almost every known society--it's hardly some new-fangled 21st century thing. The cousin incest taboo is relatively new but that's a different matter.

No, I'm saying the Westermarck Effect is not biological, but the result of social pressure. There has always been social pressure against blood siblings mating, but that social pressure has NOT always extended to other children raised in close proximity.

That's because until modern times human beings mostly lived in small communities of extended families where you would grow up in close proximity to your eventual spouse. We were tribal hunter-gatherers for tens of thousands of years and even when we turned to agriculture most of humanity continued to live in small extended family communities that farmed or shepherded.

Given the above, if the Westermarck Effect were biological, we as a species would have died out a long time ago.

Mating with a sibling or parent has always been discouraged because even if they didn't understand modern genetics, it was known that that level of inbreeding did not produce healthy offspring in the long run (genetically speaking it takes a couple of generations of sibling incest to get to the level of deformity we think of as resulting from incest).

But it was also known that marriage outside the immediate family and the only available candidates for most were sitting around the same fire or at the same longhouse table as small children so it would make no sense to discourage interest in those deemed 'unrelated' (most would actually be cousins of some degree simply due to the size of the communities and lack of travel).

In the case of the nobility, social pressures would be those of duty to the family and of what brings most advantage to the next generation regardless of how you might feel about them personally ('close your eyes and think of Westeros'). Basically they aren't conditioned to think about marriage as anything other than a business transaction and a cousin who is King is about the best 'business partner' Sansa could ever hope for.

[KatWay]

They're both Starks so a marriage between them won't help either much in any real political way. In Westeros, aside from the insane Targaryens and Cersei's crazy ass everyone has tried to secure marriages that can ensure important political alliances. Even if Jon and Sansa are cousins and not siblings, they're already on the same side. The same people would be loyal to them. There's nothing to be gained here.
 

Also, it's definitely a testament to the absolute lack of potential ships on this show if you've got people finding arguments why marrying your first cousin really isn't that bad over two characters who were last seen together when one of them was a child and was a bit pissy towards the other one.

[Chris24601]

35 minutes ago, KatWay said:

They're both Starks so a marriage between them won't help either much in any real political way.

That really depends on three things.

First, how secure is Jon's position as King in the North once its revealed that he is NOT Ned's bastard, but the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar? Robb's Will was predicated on Jon being Ned's son. A marriage to the trueborn heir would act to reinforce Jon's claim in the same way that the Lannisters and Boltons sought to use Sansa. The big difference there being that Jon has no reason to betray her down the line so its by far the most secure political match Sansa is going to find.

Second, just what political ends are Jon and Sansa trying to achieve? If Jon wants to push for the Iron Throne, then marrying Sansa is certainly not the best political move to make (though it is not a completely ineffectual one since a push for the Iron Throne would require emphasizing his Targaryan side and a Stark bride would help reinforce that the North still has reason to be loyal to Jon).

But if all Jon and Sansa want is to rule a free and secure North then there's little advantage to marrying outside the North. The Northern lords will have already pledged personally for Jon, so he has their loyalty and little to gain in a marriage that would show favoritism towards one house or another. By contrast, marrying Sansa specifically removes the potential for any husband she eventually weds to try to undermine and usurp Jon by using Sansa's claim. Not alienating any of the Northern Lords and preventing the problems Sansa's future husband might cause sounds like a political win-win if all you want to do is be left in peace.

Third, just how do the events in the Riverlands turn out? If Edmure Tully dies before he can produce an heir then Sansa is next in line for the Riverlands; a nice chunk of territory that can both better provide agriculture and serve as an additional buffer between the southern kingdoms and the North (the Twins remains as strategically important as ever). As the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar, Jon has no natural claim to the Riverlands, so putting the Riverlands under the control of the King in the North by marrying the heir to the Riverlands would be a powerful political move. The fact that the primary opponents of this (the Freys) are likely going to be removed via Arya-assination is also a huge shift in favor of the move.

That's three specific political ends that can be reached via a political match between Jon and Sansa.

Edited May 29, 2016 by Chris24601

[nksarmi]

I've said before but I also think it speaks to a total lack of options as well. If one expects a king and a queen at the end of the series - the options are very, very limited.

Many probably still expect Jon and Dany. For me, because I like Jon so much - I don't want him to suffer a marriage to Dany where I think he would be absolutely miserable. I know this story probably won't have many happy endings, but I just don't see Jon and Dany meshing well at all.  And some people think that Dany will either turn into the villain or die. If either of those outcomes is her fate - than she definitely won't end up with Jon.

And you know, if incest is an issue for you - Dany is Jon's aunt and because of all the Targ intermarrying - probably far more genetically similar to him than Sansa. If L+R=J is true then Dany and Jon's children would have three Targ grandparents and one Stark grandparent. At least one of those three Targs was batshit crazy. Not the screaming endorsement for wanting to pass along your genes. And this is assuming that Dany will be able to have children again - and for these people, what's the point of marriage, if they don't have a child? On the other hand, if Jon and Sansa have a child, the children one will have (presumably) sane Targ grandparent, two Stark grandparents, and one Tully grandparent. Much more genetic diversity there and probably a better chance for sane children.

So in story, who do we have for Jon to marry other than Dany and Sansa (this again, assumes a king and queen will be needed at the end - it might not matter at all)? I think we can rule out anyone that doesn't transition from book to show. I think people like Aegon and Arienne are going to matter to GRRM's story and might even live to rule a southern kingdom of Dorne or something like that. However, I'm going to assume that if they were cut from the show - they don't matter to Jon or Dany's fate.

In show, so far, we have:

1. Bastard sandsnakes whom I think we can rule out so no Dorne alliance.

2. No living female Lannister and I doubt Jon could bring himself to do that even if Myrcella had survived.

3. No female Tully to align with, so no marriage to the Riverlands.

4. If Marg even survives - she's practically a black widow, so I don't think he will marry into the Tyrell House.

5. He could marry Yara and try to bring the Ironborne into an alliance with the North. I think that would fail miserably but I admit it stands as a possibility.

6. He could marry Sam's sister and build an alliance with the Tarleys - especially if his house replaces the Tyrells for power in that region.

7. He could marry a Frey.

8. He could marry the daughter of a lesser Northern house.

9. He could marry the daughter of any lessor noble house throughout Westerous.

 

So politically and in terms of Jon marrying some character we know or care about on some level - outside of Dany and Sansa, the options seem to be Yara or Sam's sister.  So from a story telling perspective - which of those seems the most likely? Or do we consider it far more likely that there will be no king or queen or marriage for Jon at the end?

[SeanC]

35 minutes ago, nksarmi said:

So politically and in terms of Jon marrying some character we know or care about on some level - outside of Dany and Sansa, the options seem to be Yara or Sam's sister.  So from a story telling perspective - which of those seems the most likely? Or do we consider it far more likely that there will be no king or queen or marriage for Jon at the end?

Well, to the extent that Sansa is an option, Arya is too, for the record.

If the series ends with Jon on the throne (open question), the issue of his marriage could simply to be left open, with the assumption that he would at some point.

EDIT:  Oh, there's also Meera, I suppose, if Jon decided to follow up taking Bran's crown with taking his crush too.

Edited May 29, 2016 by SeanC

[Eyes High]

I think anyone who believes that there won't be an endgame ruler, or that the endgame ruler won't be one of Jon, Dany or Tyrion, is kidding himself or herself. My money's on Jon at this point, although there's something unappetizingly pat about Jon ending up with the throne. I don't think that translates to him marrying Sansa, though, and from a political perspective, there's nothing that Sansa would bring to the match that Arya wouldn't.

[Oscirus]

Yea, I'm still going with Tyrion king Sansa queen otherwise there were a lot of scenes in season 2 and 3 that were a colossal waste of time.

But going with the Jon is the king scenario if people want Jon happy and for his marriage to serve a political purpose there's only one real candidate from the known alive women.

That's Margery. She brings the Tyrells into the fold and she seems to be an expert in keeping her men happy. It's not her fault she keeps drawing freaks.

Of the remaining candidates:

Dany? She's an interesting case. Politically it makes sense and I believe that they have a connection that nobody else in the show has. But I see them more as foes then lovers.

Sansa and Arya make no sense since he'd already have the north locked up. If he marries one of those two, it would be for love.

Meera, admittedly I have no idea what she's an heir to.  With that I can't really  recommend her. Besides she seems more likely to end up with Bran.

One of the Sand Snakes might work. Brings Dorne into the fold, on the negative side, the queen would be spitting out horrible one liners all the time.

Yara. It brings in the iron born. But seriously who gives a damn about that iron born? A marriage to her would probably be a net negative.

Let's go unorthodox. QOT. From her stories, she seems to be good at sex. Brings the tyrells.  Just keep her in mind.

[Chris24601]

11 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

I don't think that translates to him marrying Sansa, though, and from a political perspective, there's nothing that Sansa would bring to the match that Arya wouldn't.

There's plenty Sansa would bring that Arya can't for the simple reason that Sansa is the older sister and all her brothers are either dead, soon to be dead or impotent and likely to abdicate.

Sansa is next in line after Edmure Tully (who is a Frey hostage) for the Riverlands. She's next in line after Jon for Winterfell (as written Robb's will makes no mention of moving Arya's claim ahead of Sansa's because Arya was believed dead) until Jon produces heirs. Arya has claim to nothing at all unless Sansa and all of Sansa's children are dead first.

[nksarmi]

38 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

I think anyone who believes that there won't be an endgame ruler, or that the endgame ruler won't be one of Jon, Dany or Tyrion, is kidding himself or herself. My money's on Jon at this point, although there's something unappetizingly pat about Jon ending up with the throne. I don't think that translates to him marrying Sansa, though, and from a political perspective, there's nothing that Sansa would bring to the match that Arya wouldn't.

I would also say that while I believe it very likely that Arya will reclaim her Stark name - I don't think she will ever rule anything. She doesn't want it and she isn't cut out for it. Sansa is the one living Stark who has been groomed on some level to rule. Let's face it - gods bless him, Jon died because he was a bad ruler. He didn't know how to convince people and persuade people that his orders weren't just orders but also the right thing to do. Jon needs a Tyrion SO bad it's not funny. Sansa is the closest thing he's got - especially on the show.

I actually could believe Sansa and Tyrion reunited at the end ruling together - except I don't think even GRRM would try to sell the people of Westerous accepting Tyrion as their ruler. I think he will be the Hand when it's all said and done.

Edited May 29, 2016 by nksarmi

[Oscirus]

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Jon needs a Tyrion SO bad it's not funny. Sansa is the closest thing he's got - especially on the show

Jon not only has Sansa but he also currently has Davos. He should be fine.

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, nksarmi said:

I would also say that while I believe it very likely that Arya will reclaim her Stark name - I don't think she will ever rule anything. She doesn't want it and she isn't cut out for it. Sansa is the one living Stark who has been groomed on some level to rule. Let's face it - gods bless him, Jon died because he was a bad ruler. He didn't know how to convince people and persuade people that his orders weren't just orders but also the right thing to do. Jon needs a Tyrion SO bad it's not funny. Sansa is the closest thing he's got - especially on the show.

I actually could believe Sansa and Tyrion reunited at the end ruling together - except I don't think even GRRM would try to sell the people of Westerous accepting Tyrion as their ruler. I think he will be the Hand when it's all said and done.

I'm not convinced Sansa won't end up being Jon's Littlefinger: someone who presents themselves as friendly, helpful and harmless only to stab the person they're assisting in the back. I've got my eye on her.

As for Sansa having been "groomed" to rule, a recurrent theme in ASOIAF is people "groomed" to rule falling flat on their faces or dying prematurely, while people who end up with power are those who never expected to hold it. Ned laments in AGOT that he was never meant to be in Brandon's position, a father to queens, etc. etc. The "winner" of the first dance of the dragons was little Aegon III, a little kid left standing when everyone else died. We know that Aegon in ADWD has been groomed from childhood to be the perfect king, but if you think that he's going to be sitting the Iron Throne at the end of all this, I have a bridge to sell you. Sansa was intended to be queen; that's what makes me think it's very unlikely that that's where she'll end up.

Furthermore and more generally, if Sansa goes through all this shit just to wind up pretty much exactly where she was planning on winding up in AGOT (as queen of Westeros to her beloved's king), that seems at odds with the other characters. As with the other characters, it's more likely that she winds up somewhere she never dreamed she would end up in AGOT but which was made possible by the cataclysmic events of ASOIAF, just like the other characters. Jon, originally resigned to a life at the Wall, ends up King. Dany, originally resigned to a life as a slave and a pawn of her abusive brother, winds up at the head of the dothraki conquering her way across the world. And so on.

1 hour ago, Oscirus said:

Yea, I'm still going with Tyrion king Sansa queen otherwise there were a lot of scenes in season 2 and 3 that were a colossal waste of time.

I think Sansa winding up as anyone's queen, much less Jon's, is very unlikely. I'm not sure what you mean about the scenes in seasons 2 and 3 being a waste of time if Tyrion and Sansa don't end up as king and queen. TV Tyrion does state matter of factly in 5x01 that he'll never sit on the Iron Throne.

TV Tyrion is a lot warmer and more compassionate than his book self, which would make sense if he wound up in a position of power at the end of the series. I wonder if the show is pretty much ignoring the kinslaying curse because Tyrion has a relatively good outcome in the end that the curse would appear to preclude. I guess TV Tyrion could always break bad suddenly the way his book self seems to be doing in slower, more gradual fashion, but with only 13 episodes left after this season, and with TV Tyrion pretty well-adjusted and uninterested in revenge at present, that seems less and less likely.

Edited May 29, 2016 by Eyes High

[SeanC]

1 hour ago, Oscirus said:

Yea, I'm still going with Tyrion king Sansa queen otherwise there were a lot of scenes in season 2 and 3 that were a colossal waste of time.

If you mean the Tyrion/Sansa marriage, that plotline had a purpose in and of itself (albeit one that the show's changes rendered substantially irrelevant).

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Meera, admittedly I have no idea what she's an heir to.

Meera's the next Lady of Greywater Watch.  Not in and of itself important; but were Jon to be taking the throne, it would presumably be on dragonback.  With that sort of power he could afford to marry for personal compatibility.  Of all the Targaryen monarchs, even after they lost their dragons, only one married for any sort of meaningful alliance purposes (Daeron II marrying Mariah Martell).

56 minutes ago, nksarmi said:

I actually could believe Sansa and Tyrion reunited at the end ruling together - except I don't think even GRRM would try to sell the people of Westerous accepting Tyrion as their ruler. 

In a scenario where Tyrion was ruler, the reason people would accept him would be "dragonrider".

Edited May 29, 2016 by SeanC

[Maximum Taco]

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

In a scenario where Tyrion was ruler, the reason people would accept him would be "dragonrider".

I don't see a scenario where the dragons live if Dany dies. And I don't see a scenario where a living Dany cedes the crown to Tyrion either.

[SeanC]

17 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

I don't see a scenario where the dragons live if Dany dies. And I don't see a scenario where a living Dany cedes the crown to Tyrion either.

To be clear, I don't think Tyrion will be king.  But if Dany and her dragon dies, I don't think that inherently means the other dragons do; indeed, if the other dragons acquire their own riders, they'd most likely share the fates of those riders.

[spottedreptile]

What if the Iron Throne is no longer in contention? The whole "Game of Thrones" stories are about people squabbling about an iron chair when they should be fighting the WW and demons of the North etc etc. I can see the Wall coming down because its original purpose was forgotten; I can also see King's Landing ceasing to exist as a capital and the power moving north to the realm of the Starks. What happens to the Iron Throne then? 

[Harald Hardrada]

Now that one friendly giant has slipped past the Wall and settled in The Gift along with the rest of the surviving Wildlings, the South better open their eyes by ignoring all the useless crap and start to focus on the real danger. They better prepare for the winter before it is too late.

[benteen]

Edmure is the (deposed) Lord of the Riverlands and his child is heir.  If both of them should die, Bran and then Rickon would be the next in line though they are presumed dead.  Sansa would be next in line.  Then I believe Sweetrobin as Lysa's son and then the Blackfish.  Not complicated at all. ;)

[nksarmi]

Ok Sam's sister is nice enough and that castle was huge considering they are bannermen to the Tyrells. If House Tyrell falls (which appears likely on the show), then perhaps the Tarleys become the main House in the Reach. There could be something poetic about Jon marrying Sam's sister and becoming his brother by marriage rather than in the NW. Of course this happens preferably with daddy-o dead. Mom, brother, and sister all seemed rather nice.

Now as much as I was all in her corner early on - that last speech to a horde of rapists and killers about taking the Iron Throne, killing them in their iron suits, and destroying their homes? Ok, not a fan. The repeated beats of Dany being a conqueror and not a queen do not bode well for her ruling when this is all said and done. She might die a hero's death but I no longer have any kind of feeling that she is one of the good guys. She's an inch away from being Cersei and she's exactly the kind of person who gives the High Sparrow strength - because the freer of slaves apparently cares nothing for the little people when it comes to "taking back what's her's."

I don't believe now at all that it will be her and Jon as king and queen with Tyrion as their hand. I'm leaning toward Dany dying. She isn't fit to rule.

[Oscirus]

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I think Sansa winding up as anyone's queen, much less Jon's, is very unlikely. I'm not sure what you mean about the scenes in seasons 2 and 3 being a waste of time if Tyrion and Sansa don't end up as king and queen. TV Tyrion does state matter of factly in 5x01 that he'll never sit on the Iron Throne.

Tyrion stating that should have the exact opposite effect, there's no reason that any logical person would assume that Tyrion would even be thinking about being king. Yet for some reason the writers wanted to tell the audience that he "won't" be.

As for examples I won't go through all of them but I'll talk about the two main ones for the sake of brevity:

Blackwater: I'll admit that Tyrion would have had to lead the troops regardless, but showing Sansa being the queen in everything but name was interesting but it wasn't a necessary scene if it wasn't foreshadowing something bigger.  Season 3 wedding, not the actual fact that they got married but as Sansa approached the steps, where the camera pulls back and she's lit up and she silhouetted like a queen. It's an interesting directorial touch for that scene.   There's also minor things like that rom com shit in the previous episode where both Tyrion and Sansa talked about how much they hated getting married, the amount of time spent on that wedding as opposed to every other wedding on this show amongst other things.

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I actually could believe Sansa and Tyrion reunited at the end ruling together - except I don't think even GRRM would try to sell the people of Westerous accepting Tyrion as their ruler. 

Tyrion, hero of Blackwater, one of the vanquishers of the mother of dragons (provided that she goes chaotic evil), who assisted in ridding the realm of his evil relatives. I don't think it would be as hard of a sell as people think.

 

As an added bonus more because I like to go crazy with the analyzing then to present as actual proof. Could this be foreshadowing?:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doY0IjisBlk

Holiness-Stannis

Justice- Snow

Strength-Dany.

Probably overthinking it but it's fun to consider.

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, Oscirus said:

Tyrion stating that should have the exact opposite effect, there's no reason that any logical person would assume that Tyrion would even be thinking about being king. Yet for some reason the writers wanted to tell the audience that he "won't" be.

As for examples I won't go through all of them but I'll talk about the two main ones for the sake of brevity:

Blackwater: I'll admit that Tyrion would have had to lead the troops regardless, but showing Sansa being the queen in everything but name was interesting but it wasn't a necessary scene if it wasn't foreshadowing something bigger.  Season 3 wedding, not the actual fact that they got married but as Sansa approached the steps, where the camera pulls back and she's lit up and she silhouetted like a queen. It's an interesting directorial touch for that scene.   There's also minor things like that rom com shit in the previous episode where both Tyrion and Sansa talked about how much they hated getting married, the amount of time spent on that wedding as opposed to every other wedding on this show amongst other things.

Tyrion's statement that he would never sit on the Iron Throne in 5x01 was a response to Varys asking him a hypothetical about whether he would do something (let people suffer?) if he sat on the Iron Throne. It seemed pretty innocuous in context to me. There was also a conversation between Tyrion and Varys in 5x02 that underlined how Tyrion and Varys would always be viewed as freaks by the masses and thus never accepted as leaders.

More generally, even aside from the whole king/queen issue, while I've said a few times that it's too early to declare any endgame ship confirmed or dead in the water at this point, one would think that if Tyrion and Sansa were going to be a thing in the end result that Tyrion would have mentioned her at least once since leaving Westeros, or that Sansa would have talked about Tyrion since Season 5. She also seemed to lump Tyrion implicitly in with the "monsters who murdered my family" in 6x05 and is hewing pretty closely to her northern roots these days, which would leave Tyrion out (what with the North's hatred of Lannisters). The voiding of the Tyrion/Sansa marriage in the show seems to have been done primarily to facilitate the Ramsay/Sansa marriage, but it also severed any possible connection between the two characters. If their marriage was that important in the end result, I doubt it would have been dispensed with so swiftly. We know from the writers that they decided on the Jeyne/Sansa swap back around Season 2, and that they didn't get the future plot outline from GRRM until they were writing Season 4 (in 2013). That means that they were planning on voiding Tyrion and Sansa's marriage since 2011 (when they were writing Season 2), and that whatever they learned from GRRM at that 2013, it wasn't enough to get them to change their plan. That points strongly away from a Tyrion/Sansa endgame--king/queen or not--to me.

Edited May 30, 2016 by Eyes High

[ElizaD]

I loved Jaime vs. the Blackfish in the books, but Show Jaime has become such a mess that seeing him wrecked has the potential to be even more satisfying. I hope Show Blackfish gets some of his book dialogue and isn't just a dull stoic badass.

I don't think Benjen will turn out to be Coldhands in the books, it's a Victarion/Yara-style change. Still glad to see him again, even though it probably leads to Benjen being confirmed 100% dead after he dies protecting Bran and Meera. With his own supporting cast decimated, Bran has to end up interacting with other storylines in season 7.

[Oscirus]

Quote

Tyrion's statement that he would never sit on the Iron Throne in 5x01 was a response to Varys asking him a hypothetical about whether he would do something (let people suffer?) if he sat on the Iron Throne. It seemed pretty innocuous in context to me. There was also a conversation between Tyrion and Varys in 5x02 that underlined how Tyrion and Varys would always be viewed as freaks by the masses and thus never accepted as leaders.

Bringing up the iron throne period should be enough to set up alarm bells. You don't bring attention to something like unless it means something. That would be like someone asking Jon if he has a thing for redheads and Jon replies "I will never have sex with Sansa."  I'd assume that one would probably start paying attention after such a statement.  As for the "box" speech,  that's also a false statement since Tyrion had people following him in Blackwater. Hell, he's pretty much the leader in mereen at the moment.

Quote

More generally, even aside from the whole king/queen issue, while I've said a few times that it's too early to declare any endgame ship confirmed or dead in the water at this point, one would think that if Tyrion and Sansa were going to be a thing in the end result that Tyrion would have mentioned her at least once since leaving Westeros, or that Sansa would have talked about Tyrion since Season 5.

Because it would be forced dialogue. It's not like they were great loves, so why would they talk about each other? Not to mention that the situations that they were in really wasn't conducive to either thinking about the other.

 

That's not to say that you don't bring up compelling points. Hell if anything the previews back up your argument. But I still feel as if there's plenty of evidence that points towards her as the queen and Tyrion as the king at the end.

[benteen]

7 hours ago, ElizaD said:

I loved Jaime vs. the Blackfish in the books, but Show Jaime has become such a mess that seeing him wrecked has the potential to be even more satisfying. I hope Show Blackfish gets some of his book dialogue and isn't just a dull stoic badass.

I don't think Benjen will turn out to be Coldhands in the books, it's a Victarion/Yara-style change. Still glad to see him again, even though it probably leads to Benjen being confirmed 100% dead after he dies protecting Bran and Meera. With his own supporting cast decimated, Bran has to end up interacting with other storylines in season 7.

Agreed about Jaime.  I’m a big fan of Book Blackfish but have disliked his portrayal on the show, except for his initial scene with Catelyn after her father’s death.  I always viewed Blackfish as a noble character and an older looking version of your average Tully.  On the show, he was reduced to a crude thug.

I suspect that Benjen, like Coldhands, won’t be able to move beyond the Wall.

[Maximum Taco]

3 minutes ago, benteen said:

Agreed about Jaime.  I’m a big fan of Book Blackfish but have disliked his portrayal on the show, except for his initial scene with Catelyn after her father’s death.  I always viewed Blackfish as a noble character and an older looking version of your average Tully.  On the show, he was reduced to a crude thug.

I suspect that Benjen, like Coldhands, won’t be able to move beyond the Wall.

That makes sense, while the Wall stands.

But I think it's pretty clear that at some point the Night's King and the WW and their wights will move south, either by toppling the Wall entirely or finding some other way through. I expect the rules that govern them will also govern Benjen/Coldhands.

[benteen]

I agree, if Benjen/Coldhands still lives when the Wall falls (and I believe that it will) he should have no problem crossing over it.

[nodorothyparker]

10 hours ago, ElizaD said:

I loved Jaime vs. the Blackfish in the books, but Show Jaime has become such a mess that seeing him wrecked has the potential to be even more satisfying. I hope Show Blackfish gets some of his book dialogue and isn't just a dull stoic badass..

I liked the smackdown a ton in the books where Jaime was already well into his journey of dislodging his head from his ass.  It was satisfying and so well written.  I'm really anticipating it more than I should probably allow myself to, given the show's problematic history with the character, just because show Jaime isn't nearly as far along and needs some hard truths laid on him so much more.  As much as I'm nearly salivating over this and the inevitable reunion with Brienne, who will surely have some hard truths of her own for him, part of me's nearly terrified to get my hopes up.  Because if they can't course correct show Jaime here, there's really no hope of ever doing so and nothing left to do but accept that one of the best written characters of the books is irretrievably ruined.

[benteen]

I assume Bronn will be with Jaime as he took over the Illyn Payne role of training Jaime to fight with his left hand.  We’re getting an exciting and interesting group of characters back into the Riverlands now.

[Minneapple]

Bringing this post from Athena over from the Blood of my Blood episode thread:

Quote

 

For me, Book Jaime had one of the best character arc in the books. I became really annoyed or indifferent to most of the characters I previously adored early in the books: Tyrion, Dany, and even Jon at times. However, with Jaime, he went from some two bit incestuous villain to a very nuanced and complex character in the later books. His ordeal and relationship with Brienne launched a great storyline. After he loses his hand, he pushes a lot of people away including Cersei and this is when he starts seeing her for who she is. It does not mean he doesn't love her; he always will, but he begins to see the bigger picture of life in KL. He tries his best to actually be a good guy, but no one listens to him so he goes over to Riverrun which is not my favourite time in his life, but this is where he rejects Cersei's plea for help when she is imprisoned. There's a ton of internal struggle and alienation that happens with Jaime as he changes in the books.

On the show, he's left to propping her up. He's still blindly in love with her and does not see her faults. NCW can act as we saw in S3, but he's not really using many of his skills lately. He's become a bit pathetic if you think about it. I agree that it's much less compelling and I am hoping that with him out of KL, the writing can shift another way for him.

 

Yes. I've bitched about Show Jaime vs. Book Jaime before, but this season Show Jaime has become completely boring and useless, which may be worse than his storyline last year. I love Book Jaime -- he shoves a child off of a tower and gets his hand cut off. Now that is poetic justice. Then his story with Brienne, and finally his being done with Cersei and his Riverlands arc, which was absolutely the highlight of A Feast For Crows for me (his scene with Gemma Lannister is gold). I like how he resolves the Riverlands tension by negotiating and using diplomacy rather than physical fighting (so perhaps he is Tywin's son after all). And I absolutely think it's really important that when he reads Cersei's letter and decides to burn it, he throws open the windows to let the snow in. I think he and Brienne will find Sansa and bring her back to Winterfell. It's a very good redemption arc, and I do think he will die in the end, but it will be a good death. 

I also really enjoy Book Cersei way more than Show Cersei. I think that's in large part to Book Cersei's internal monologue being lost in the show. I love, for example, how she realizes her gowns have shrunk and blames not her excessive eating and drinking, but rather the washerwoman. Show Cersei is much more of a trope (she's a woobie who would do anything for her children) rather than the complex character we get in the books.

This season has been the worst for Jaime and Cersei. They're boring as fuck. Jaime is basically Cersei's lapdog. I don't have much hope, but maybe with him going to the Riverlands, perhaps his character will start to resemble his book character more.

Edited June 1, 2016 by Minneapple

[Athena]

1 hour ago, Minneapple said:

Yes. I've bitched about Show Jaime vs. Book Jaime before, but this season Show Jaime has become completely boring and useless, which may be worse than his storyline last year. I love Book Jaime -- he shoves a child off of a tower and gets his hand cut off. Now that is poetic justice. Then his story with Brienne, and finally his being done with Cersei and his Riverlands arc, which was absolutely the highlight of A Feast For Crows for me (his scene with Gemma Lannister is gold). I like how he resolves the Riverlands tension by negotiating and using diplomacy rather than physical fighting (so perhaps he is Tywin's son after all). And I absolutely think it's really important that when he reads Cersei's letter and decides to burn it, he throws open the windows to let the snow in. I think he and Brienne will find Sansa and bring her back to Winterfell. It's a very good redemption arc, and I do think he will die in the end, but it will be a good death.

I like Gemma Lannister too and that was a good scene. The Lannisters are an interesting family. The Riverlands did show Jaime using his skills in a different way. Yes, I absolutely believe he will die too, but if GRRM writes it like he has other aspects of Jaime's arc, I'm actually looking forward to it in a morbid way.

Protip about quoting: If you use the Multiquote button, the one besides the regular quote button (+"), the quoted post(s) will follow you all around the forums like some sort of word stalker. Creepy, but effective.

[benteen]

NCW can definitely act.  He should have gotten an Emmy nomination for his work on Season 3.  When I read the first book after watching the first season, I found NCW to be the absolute best representation of his book character.  That’s why the past season plus has been so damn disappointing.  Jaime’s arc is one of the best in the books and it’s been largely discarded due to the writers love affair with Cersei and Lena.

It’s funny that the writers clearly love the Lannisters but they have been doing an increasingly poor job with all of them.  Tyrion has been reduced to a one-dimensional good guy on the show, his character saved only by Peter Dinklage’s performance.  Show Cersei is more complex than Book Cersei, I won’t argue with that.  But she has been made way to sympathetic when she’s not supposed to be one and like Catelyn, D&D seem to view her more as a mom than anything else.  She’s the Lannister who has had the better season thus far as the character seems to finally be descending towards madness. 

[nodorothyparker]

Barring the goddawful sept scene where everybody involved apparently thought they were shooting one thing that much of the viewing audience perceived as something else, I didn't even hate a lot of what they did with Jaime in season 4.  It actually made sense to me that he would have been visiting Tyrion in his cell and looking at the dynamics of the family that led to Tywin and Cersei almost gleefully putting their own son and brother on public trial for Joffrey's murder.  It was something I found lacking in SOS, where he's otherwise scuttling around behind the scenes looking into the "evidence."  Because he's just come back from being out in the world where he lost his sword hand at least in part because the Lannister name really isn't all that and everyone doesn't think they shit gold.  At the time, I honestly thought we were beginning to see the seeds for his separation there.  NCW was doing some fine nonverbal acting during Tyrion's epic trial speech and again when Tywin passed down the sentence after Oberyn got his head smooshed in.  He was playing it as if he was really getting it how they were willingly destroying themselves from within.

So season 5 with the execrable Dorne story and the bizarre the heart wants what it wants scene with Ellaria was a huge letdown.  And this season if I squint really hard I can sort of think well, he has buried his father and now another one of the children he could never claim in short order at least in part because of things he either set in motion or couldn't prevent and that explains some of his neutered behavior.  Squicky twincest stuff aside, NCW did some nice work again this past episode in the scenes with the High Sparrow and Tommen.  But it always comes back to the Cersei love and the show's continuing insistence on using him to prop her for me.  The break here has to happen one way or the other for his story to move forward, and I do believe he still has a big part to play in the story.  But he can't do it as Cersei's lapdog.

[benteen]

Quote

It actually made sense to me that he would have been visiting Tyrion in his cell and looking at the dynamics of the family that led to Tywin and Cersei almost gleefully putting their own son and brother on public trial for Joffrey's murder.

I agree, it made more sense for Jaime to have been interacting more with Tyrion when he was in the jail cell.  The show got that right even if it lead to the atrocious "Cousin Orson" story of Tyrion's.

Dorne was a train wreck for everyone involved and I still don't know what D&D were thinking by putting Jaime into that shit storm.

[nodorothyparker]

I get it in the sense that they wanted to introduce another part of the world we'd heard about but had never seen and realized devoting chunks of their limited storytelling time would likely go down easier with the audience if they could go there with the familiar faces of Jaime and Bronn.  Otherwise, I got nothing too.  Because so far, nothing we've been shown in either last season or this one concerning Dorne has made any sense for including it at all.

[SeanC]

The only real case for the show's version of Dorne is that they had to send Jaime somewhere for Season 5 to get him out of KL, but weren't ready to do the Riverlands plot yet, and they had to kill Myrcella.

[jjjmoss]

After the complaints about Dany ending another episode, I tried to add up the number each main character's gotten and got:

12 Dany, 9 Jon, 8 Cersei, 7 Tyrion/Arya, 6 Jaime, 4 Bran/Sansa
The INjustice for Sansa being behind Jaime and tied with Bran who skipped a whole season.
Plus all the episode endings she's involved with are depressing: begging for her dad's life, her dad dies, her aunt dies, the last shreds of her innocence die.

Here for some big triumphant moment for Sansa ending an episode this season (likely co-starring Jon). Preferably ep 9 or 10.

Edited June 1, 2016 by jjjmoss

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

The only real case for the show's version of Dorne is that they had to send Jaime somewhere for Season 5 to get him out of KL, but weren't ready to do the Riverlands plot yet

That was my sense.

[Minneapple]

2 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

I get it in the sense that they wanted to introduce another part of the world we'd heard about but had never seen and realized devoting chunks of their limited storytelling time would likely go down easier with the audience if they could go there with the familiar faces of Jaime and Bronn.  Otherwise, I got nothing too.  Because so far, nothing we've been shown in either last season or this one concerning Dorne has made any sense for including it at all.

This was my thought. I also figured they needed a majot established character in Dorne to justify the cost of location filming in Spain.

[proserpina65]

Quote

The cousin incest taboo is relatively new but that's a different matter.

It waxes and wanes in importance, but does date back at least as far as the 14th century, when Edward, Prince of Wales (son of Edward III) needed a Papal dispensation to marry his cousin, Joan of Kent.

[Umbelina]

The show completely threw Jamie's character into the trashbin of Lena worship and giving her great scenes to play with the rape.

Honestly, there was no coming back from that, and it clearly spelled out exactly how much they are willing to do to Jamie in order to give Lena great scenes.

[Maximum Taco]

On 5/29/2016 at 3:10 PM, Chris24601 said:

There's plenty Sansa would bring that Arya can't for the simple reason that Sansa is the older sister and all her brothers are either dead, soon to be dead or impotent and likely to abdicate.

Sansa is next in line after Edmure Tully (who is a Frey hostage) for the Riverlands. She's next in line after Jon for Winterfell (as written Robb's will makes no mention of moving Arya's claim ahead of Sansa's because Arya was believed dead) until Jon produces heirs. Arya has claim to nothing at all unless Sansa and all of Sansa's children are dead first.

Hey if she marries Harry and bears him a child she also has a link to the Eyrie (obviously contingent on Sweetrobin's death.) It would be very weird if she were to wed Harry, get pregnant and then have Harry die in order to be available to wed Jon, but it's possible, hell it's wartime. 

Sansa could end up being a controlling factor in all 3 Northern kingdoms. Queen in the North indeed.

Edited June 1, 2016 by Maximum Taco

[jjjmoss]

Well, perhaps the writers are hungry for one of their actors not named Peter Dinklage to win a notable award and see Headey as their best shot. (The Golden Globe and Sag awards haven't even bothered to individually nominate anyone besides Dinklage.)

For better or for worse, given how she's basically the only consistent face in King's Landing 50+ eps in a row, Cersei has been the most central figure to the titular Game of Thrones - even if we presume it'll eventually take a backseat to that song of ice and fire, of Jon and Dany.