S02.E09: Sinned Against

[Grace19]

I hate that they are side lining Tiana, she dosent have to sleep with hakeem to be relevant, she can be his friend and she's like family to cookie. I dont like what they are doing to anika, but i'm still looking forward to cookie and lucious reaction to the pregnancy.

Oh, and Alicia keys is so sexy.

[wanderingstar]

I miss seeing Tiana, too. I love her and Hakeem as partners/friends. I also really like Hakeem with Laura.

And I continue to love the way Cookie and Hakeem's relationship has grown this season. When she told him she was proud of him in this ep, my heart just swelled.

[RCharter]

I miss seeing Tiana, too. I love her and Hakeem as partners/friends. I also really like Hakeem with Laura.

And I continue to love the way Cookie and Hakeem's relationship has grown this season. When she told him she was proud of him in this ep, my heart just swelled.

 

 

I hate that they are side lining Tiana, she dosent have to sleep with hakeem to be relevant, she can be his friend and she's like family to cookie. I dont like what they are doing to anika, but i'm still looking forward to cookie and lucious reaction to the pregnancy.

Oh, and Alicia keys is so sexy.

 

Until you two mentioned her, I had completely forgotten about Tiana.

 

She doesn't have to sleep with Hakeem, but I thought they sort of made a nice couple.  Hakeem and Laura have no chemistry.  I think Tiana is more his speed, she is about business, she knows how to handle herself, she is loyal and while she may have a certain outer toughness...like Hakeem she is soft on the inside.

[mack6986]

Has Alicia Keys ever looked better than she did in this episode? I've never thought she was particularly attractive, but she looked bangin' here. It's hard to imagine her as singing 'sorority girl breakup songs', just because her music in real life is nothing like that. I can't picture her as a Kesha/Nicki Minaj type.

I agree with everyone that having Jamal kiss Alicia was bullshit. I was hoping the character would stay gay and not be retconned into being bisexual, pansexual, etc. I really liked Michael, and I wanted the two of them to work out just to have an example of a healthy gay relationship on a popular network TV show. But then Michael cheated and now Jamal is making moves on females, so yeah...that isn't happening.

I also hate what they're doing to Anika. The character was such a stealth, smart bitch in the first season, but now she's being completely changed. Not a fan.

Lucious continues to be my least favorite character. He's just so tiresome.

Cookie looked fierce as fuck on the streets of Philly. Her hair, the outfit- it was all working for me.

Get rid of Laura and bring back Tiana.

[Palomar]

I'm also really hating the whole Boo Boo Kitty loses her shit story line. I loved how hard as nails she was last season and now she's trying to trap Hakeem and is quickly sliding into bunny boiling mode. I don't think it's in keeping with a character I felt I'd gotten to know.

 

 

I don't get it....no way would a relationship between the two work at ALL and she knows it. Why not tell the truth and let the chips fall where they may.  Someone in that family will provide a pay day for her and the Lyon child and she can still do her own thing.

[GreekGeek]

This deal Andre is cooking up is going to run Empire into the ground, which will have him back on the outs with Lucious. Calling it.

About the only thing I hate about the imminence of Lucious's downfall is that it will put Andre back in the doghouse.

Even worse is the prospect of Rhonda falling down that staircase and losing the baby, which will put an end to Lucious's lovey-dovey behavior to her. Maybe Anika will be the one to fall instead?

[eurekagirl mOo]

Take Dallas mix it with Falcon Crest and add a large scoop of Glee.

[Pjxf99]

Were Anika and Rhonda friends before? I was surprised to see Anika at the new house about five seconds after Lucius bought it for them.

 

 

Anika needs to start asking herself "WWWGD"  in other words "What Would Whitney Gilbert Do?"  Whitney Gilbert wouldn't have done any of this.

 

This made me laugh til I couldn't breathe. I can see Whitley (L not an N) stamping her foot and telling Anika, "that's not how this works! That's not how any of this works!"

 

And Empire people, if you're listening, how about Jasmine Guy as a guest star?

Edited November 28, 2015 by Pjxf99

[Grace19]

As much as I love Hakeem with Tiana, they never had much of any chemistry. Hakeem had sexual chemistry with Camilla and have romantic chemistry with Laura. I understand that Tiana being sidelined might make a lot of people dislike Laura, but thats on the writers, because they seem to think Tiana only matters when she is in a relationship with Hakeem. They sidelined her last season too when she broke up with Hakeem and focused on Hakeem and Camilla for the rest of th season.

[RCharter]

Were Anika and Rhonda friends before? I was surprised to see Anika at the new house about five seconds after Lucius bought it for them.

This made me laugh til I couldn't breathe. I can see Whitley (L not an N) stamping her foot and telling Anika, "that's not how this works! That's not how any of this works!"

 

And Empire people, if you're listening, how about Jasmine Guy as a guest star?

LOL -- I knew that didn't feel right!  I would love Jasmine Guy on the show :)

[Queena]

I don't see much of a deviation in Anika's character. She's alwayswanted to be a Lyon, and the fact that she's willing to go to extremes to accomplish that isn't much of a surprise. I thought that she would try to sleep with Lucious again and pin the baby on him.

Is it just me, or did Rhonda's belly grow in between scenes? I know that you grow rapidly while pregnant, but not that fast!

I just binge watched the last 3 episodes, so I don't remember if Cookie found out about dude this episode or last. I also don't know why Carol felt so guilty. Did I miss something?

Edited November 29, 2015 by Queena

[skotnikov]

Poor Grace Gealey, such a talented actress wasted in a shitty story arc :(   

[represent]

I really want to know more about Cookie's upbringing. Maybe this "secret" that Carol has might give us some background in the future. 

 

I also want to know how old was she when she had Andre? She was in her twenties right?  She didn't have him in her teens right?

 

Because the actor who plays Andre almost looks a little old to be her son sometimes. I know he's the eldest and was what? At least eight years older than Jamal? But sometimes he just looks too old to be Cookie's son.

 

By the way, how old is Hakeem? Is he even legal yet?  

 

And WTF is up with all these women on him? LOL. Good lord, he's a child compared to them, leave him alone. Now there's a baby, with a mother whose losing her shit, good lord.

 

Although, I don't like Laura for him, he needs someone with more spice.

[RCharter]

 

 

Although, I don't like Laura for him, he needs someone with more spice.

I agree.  I even felt more heat with Becky G.  

 

 

I don't see much of a deviation in Anika's character. She's always wanted to be a Lyon, and the fact that she's willing to go to extremes to accomplish that isn't much of a surprise. I thought that she would try to sleep with Lucious again and pin the baby on him.

 

That would have been a very Boo Boo Kitty move!  It would have been perfect.  What's not reflective of Season 1 Anika to me is this obsession with Hakeem, sitting in her room and writing all over newspaper clippings.  Season 1 Anika would have had calculated moves, not this desperate running to Hakeem and stalker craziness.

 

She didn't purposefully sleep with Hakeem to get a child...which would have also been a very BBK move.  He showed up on her doorstep and they had "homie sex" or whatever and she accidentally got pregnant.

[represent]

 

I agree.  I even felt more heat with Becky G.

Yes, that's the one, Guadalupe she was called by Cookie, too funny. And she's the one who he said was crazy, "good crazy" I mean and he liked it so he picked her at the auditions. She's got spice and balls to talk back to Cookie which she did when she found her in Hakeem's apartment. That  Becky is spunky, like his mother,  but not a "mother figure" which is what those other two are Anika and the Naomi Campbell character. Yeah, those two women are about Hakeem growing up without a mommy. Anika, he went crying to you because you are a maternal figure and his relationship with his mom who's just showed up after seventeen years is complex to say the least. It's not cause he loves you.  Not to mention the day before he got kidnapped was Andre's baptism, yeah, the same baptism that shows him looking all kinds of jealous at his mother holding Jamal's hand and blowing kisses to Andre. Meanwhile he's sitting in the phew behind it all, like, where's the love momma? Where's mine? LOL. All a perfect set up for him to turn to Anika a replacement mother figure after getting kidnapped. 

Edited November 29, 2015 by represent

[Grace19]

I hated Becky G's character, glad she is gone. I would rather we go back to Tiana or camilla.

[Empress1]

I also want to know how old was she when she had Andre? She was in her twenties right?  She didn't have him in her teens right?

 

Because the actor who plays Andre almost looks a little old to be her son sometimes. I know he's the eldest and was what? At least eight years older than Jamal? But sometimes he just looks too old to be Cookie's son.

 

By the way, how old is Hakeem? Is he even legal yet?  

I've always thought the boys are like 28, 24, and 20. Cookie has referenced her "20-year-old son," and I think he was a baby when Cookie went to prison. Not sure how long has passed on the show since Cookie got out - a year? Rhonda referenced being with Andre for ten years, since college; if they met freshman year that would make them 18. I definitely don't think Andre is supposed to be 8 years older than Jamal. And it wouldn't surprise me at all if Cookie and Lucious were teen parents - I think she's mentioned being teens when they met and teen parenthood is pretty common in the area they came from, unfortunately.

 

If she was 18 when she had Andre and Andre is 28, that would make her 46. Taraji is 45.

[Scarlett45]

I've always thought the boys are like 28, 24, and 20. Cookie has referenced her "20-year-old son," and I think he was a baby when Cookie went to prison. Not sure how long has passed on the show since Cookie got out - a year? Rhonda referenced being with Andre for ten years, since college; if they met freshman year that would make them 18. I definitely don't think Andre is supposed to be 8 years older than Jamal. And it wouldn't surprise me at all if Cookie and Lucious were teen parents - I think she's mentioned being teens when they met and teen parenthood is pretty common in the area they came from, unfortunately.

If she was 18 when she had Andre and Andre is 28, that would make her 46. Taraji is 45.

Those ages sound about right to me given what we know of the show. Andre's age is the easiest, Jamal is either 24-26. Hakeem could've been a little more than a year old when Cookie went to prison (that would still make him a "baby" in the eyes of most) and if she's been out a little over a year, he'd be right around 20.

[represent]

 

If she was 18 when she had Andre and Andre is 28, that would make her 46. Taraji is 45.

Thanks. My point is, for me, the actor doesn't look 28.

How old is the actor by the way?

 

I guess I could buy him being in his late thirties, but don't tell me he's in his twenties? Is he? Because he doesn't look it if he is which is why I don't buy him as Cookie's son. 

 

He looks older than Derek Luke to me. Derek Luke has a more of a boyish look to him IMO. Meanwhile Andre looks like he could play her boyfriend, like Adam Rodriguez. Maybe not as old as Luscious but not young enough to say she's robbing the cradle. 

 

 

 

And it wouldn't surprise me at all if Cookie and Lucious were teen parents - I think she's mentioned being teens when they met and teen parenthood is pretty common in the area they came from, unfortunately.

Could be, I just remember her telling Tiana, that she and Luscious got married and then she popped out kids, or the kids kept coming, something to that effect. Not that teenagers can't get married with consent but, I just remember thinking when she said that, oh, they did it the old fashioned way, as in marriage first, baby second...

 

Or, she was pregnant and that's why they got married, which is still old fashioned in today's world IMO. There use to be rush to the altar for heaven forbid anyone find out you are with child and not married, not today. So for them to be drug dealers and into all sorts of illegal stuff yet, not want to have a kid without being married is old fashioned and a dichotomy of course. 

Edited November 29, 2015 by represent

[Empress1]

Thanks. My point is, for me, the actor doesn't look 28.

How old is the actor by the way?

Trai Byers is 32. He and Jussie Smollet are actually the same age (Jussie looks younger to me) and Bryshere Gray is ten years younger than they are. Kaitlyn Doubleday, who plays Andre's wife Rhonda, is 31. I've also assumed Anika is supposed to be around Grace Gealey's actual age (31) - young enough to be a younger woman to Lucious, but definitely older than Hakeem and old enough to have worked her way up in the business. I don't think they've said anything about how old Anika is, but that's been my assumption.

Or, she was pregnant and that's why they got married, which is still old fashioned in today's world IMO. There use to be rush to the altar for heaven forbid anyone find out you are with child and not married, not today. So for them to be drug dealers and into all sorts of illegal stuff yet, not want to have a kid without being married is old fashioned and a dichotomy of course. 

That doesn't bother me; maybe Lucious wanted the stability of a family because he didn't have one. Basically, piecing together comments about the Lyon family that have been sprinkled throughout the show, it follows to me that Cookie and Lucious married and had Andre, possibly in that order and possibly not, somewhere between the ages of 17 and 19. Not saying it's gospel, but that's what makes sense to me when watching.

[missbonnie]

I bet Carol slept with Lucious while Cookie was in prison.

THIS! And I am still putting money on Mimi's partner in crime turns out to be Camilla.

Edited to add that I am seriously SO over the guest stars.

Edited November 30, 2015 by missbonnie

[tmelange]

I find the situation with the guest stars interesting. OTOH, there are too many of them, and they can be distracting. OTOH, the way they're doing it sort of gives the show its feel of being just left of reality. This show reminds me of magical realism in hip hop form. You have the guest stars that appear as themselves: Timbaland, Lee Daniels, Sway, Funkmaster Flex etc; then you have the guest stars who appear as characters, from Naomi Campbell to Rosie. The first group of stars sets the show in the real world, while the second group gives you that "What if Chris Rock was a drug dealing gangster?" LOL I think some of the guest spots have worked better than others, but overall, I've enjoyed it all.

 

For example, I haven't been feeling Marissa Tomei, but I suspect her part is just getting warmed up. OTOH, I liked seeing that guy who played Prince's abusive father in Purple Rain playing that Huey/Quincy Jones character. I sort of really like seeing all these black actors that we so rarely get to see chewing the carpet in one show. If you're of a certain age and know all of these black actors, you have to admit it's fun seeing them in and of itself, which is why Lee is probably doing it.

[RCharter]

I find the situation with the guest stars interesting. OTOH, there are too many of them, and they can be distracting. OTOH, the way they're doing it sort of gives the show its feel of being just left of reality. This show reminds me of magical realism in hip hop form. You have the guest stars that appear as themselves: Timbaland, Lee Daniels, Sway, Funkmaster Flex etc; then you have the guest stars who appear as characters, from Naomi Campbell to Rosie. The first group of stars sets the show in the real world, while the second group gives you that "What if Chris Rock was a drug dealing gangster?" LOL I think some of the guest spots have worked better than others, but overall, I've enjoyed it all.

 

For example, I haven't been feeling Marissa Tomei, but I suspect her part is just getting warmed up. OTOH, I liked seeing that guy who played Prince's abusive father in Purple Rain playing that Huey/Quincy Jones character. I sort of really like seeing all these black actors that we so rarely get to see chewing the carpet in one show. If you're of a certain age and know all of these black actors, you have to admit it's fun seeing them in and of itself, which is why Lee is probably doing it.

I haven't had much of a problem with the guest spots and I think they have been fun.  It was great seeing Miss Lawrence get some exposure, because I love him on Real Housewives of Atlanta.  It was funny seeing Al Sharpeton because he was sort of making fun of himself.  Sway, Timbaland and Funkmaster Flex both fit in seamlessly to me.  I will always love seeing Naomi Campbell, because I can't help but love her.  I loved seeing that guy from the Wire, because he is so talented and I think he is underappreciated.  I really liked Rosie O'Donnel.  I didn't know who Becky G was so that one flew over my head.   I think Chris Rock as the drug dealer was good, but I wish they would have gotten the guy who played Omar in the Wire, because that guy is also an amazing actor who I don't see nearly enough of.

 

I truly think the only guest spots that I haven't felt have been Alicia Keys, because that was just strange, and I don't see how it really fits in with anything.  I'm also not a huge fan of the flashbacks, so I could have done without Kelly Rowland, but I'm happy to see her get some work and some exposure.  I'm on the fence about Marisa Tomei.  I like her as a person, and I know she was in a critically acclaimed short film about a lesbian couple, but she isn't always completely believable to me, and I don't know if its the direction, the script or her acting that is to blame.

[tmelange]

Marisa Tomei has been really over the top, and I haven't warmed to her character in any way yet, but I'm waiting to see where her storyline goes. As for Alicia Keys, I'm sort of hoping she's transgender or something. lol Anything to make it make sense.

[Dee]

The guest star appearances don't bother me because they've all been fairly well integrated into the show's universe.

It's funny how so many have taken issue with the various cameos since any non-'name' actors could have played the same characters and nothing much about the overall story would change.

Substituting Michael K. Williams for Chris Rock as Frank Gathers, changes what exactly?

[Dee]

The guest star appearances don't bother me because they've all been fairly well integrated into the show's universe.

It's funny how so many have taken issue with the various cameos since any non-'name' actors could have played the same characters and nothing much about the overall story would change.

Substituting Michael K. Williams for Chris Rock as Frank Gathers, changes what exactly?

[KatWay]

 

Substituting Michael K. Williams for Chris Rock as Frank Gathers, changes what exactly?

well I might actually think of these characters as actual characters rather than "Chris Rock the cannibal" and "Kelly Rowland". I have no idea what any of these characters are named cause I'm always "oh hey, it's that guy/girl".

[missbonnie]

I think that certain guest stars fit in seamlessly, like Timbaland, NeYo, Lee Daniels Naomi Campbell and Estelle. The rest of them feel shoe horned into the storyline imo, of course YMMV.

[Dee]

That's not the show's fault. That's the viewers problem.

Nothing about Frank Gathers would change if the character was played by a lesser known actor.

[KatWay]

If you don't know the actor playing the role you're more likely to see the character as just a character. Small roles that are not fleshed out being played by big stars is more distracting than helpful, if it's overdone and on this show it definitely is.

[Dee]

And to other viewers "lesser" or "unknown" actors are just as likely to viewed as distracting as "known" actors would be in these roles. Fans of The Wire or Boardwalk Empire might very well find it hard to see Michael K. Williams as anyone else other than Omar Little or Chalky White.

 

So, it's all subjective.

 

The guest appearances aren't overdone. Of the guest actors this season, the only ones that have lasted beyond a single episode, have been Marisa Tomei's Mimi, Becky G's Valentina, Jamila Velazquez's Laura, Andre Royo's Thirsty, Tyra Ferrell's Roxanne Ford, Kelly Rowland's Leah, Adam Busch's Chase One and Vivica Fox's Candace, all of whom tied directly into the larger storylines. The smaller cameos have made sense and been played, other than the first episode's triumvirate of Andre Leon Talley, Don Lemon & Al Sharpton, by seasoned actors; and if any of those characters were played by "lesser known" actors, nothing about their characters would change.

[RCharter]

The guest star appearances don't bother me because they've all been fairly well integrated into the show's universe.

It's funny how so many have taken issue with the various cameos since any non-'name' actors could have played the same characters and nothing much about the overall story would change.

Substituting Michael K. Williams for Chris Rock as Frank Gathers, changes what exactly?

I've always liked Michael K. Williams, and I think he would have made a much better, and more believable gangster than Chris Rock.  I don't think Chris Rock did a bad job at it, but Michael K. Williams (Omar) is a force and has always done those roles amazingly well (though I suspect he would do any role amazingly well).  I think if he had done Frank Gaithers it may have been more clear that there was some sort of cannibalism going on, because I totally missed that and I think that perhaps with a different actor it may have been a little more clear.

[Dee]

The lack of clarity regarding Gathers cannibalism wasn't Chris Rock's fault. It was a consequence of re-shoots demanded by the network.

[RCharter]

The lack of clarity regarding Gathers cannibalism wasn't Chris Rock's fault. It was a consequence of re-shoots demanded by the network.

I think an actor like Williams would have gotten the point across in spite of the re-shoots.  Chris Rock is a good actor, but he isn't on the same level as Williams, especially when it comes to playing a gangster role.  

 

But of course YMMV, my opinion is that an actor like Michael K. Williams would have been a much better fit for the role of Frank Gathers, your opinion is that it wouldn't have made a difference.  I think Williams is simply a much better and nuanced actor than Rock, and has played a variety of emotions as a gangster.  His work on Boardwalk Empire alone would convince me that he would be able to let the audience know what was up in spite of any re-shoots demanded by Fox.  At the very least, he would have been much more menacing than I felt Rock was in his scenes.  And I think he would have been able to convey that father/daughter bond with Frieda more than I felt it with Rock.

 

Those things do make a difference to the story, because you really have to believe that Lucious's taunts and threats to Frank are going to hurt him so much beyond the grave, that it would be worth it for Lucious to hold onto that.  I didn't feel that as much from Rock, and based on William's work on Boardwalk Empire, I feel certain I would have felt that from him.  And in Boardwalk Empire, Williams played a character that was the head of a criminal enterprise, and he did so to perfection.  Not to say that Rock was bad, just to say that Williams would have been better.

Edited November 30, 2015 by RCharter

[phoenics]

There were two previous episodes (I don't remember the names or episod numbers, but one of them involved Jamal and the guy who expressed an interest in him) where Lucious referenced homosexual activity going on powerful people in the industry, and he had connections with them. In general, this means nothing, but there was an undertone to what Lucious said and the way said men looked at him that raised flags. Also, this episode, we had that scene with Lucious going to the trailer with Lee Daniel. The fact that this appears to be an underlying theme says something. Also, we saw young Lucious sleeping on the streets and unfortunately, that makes him ripe for certain types of predators.

I thought the trailer reference was a callback to S1 when Lucious took one girl's cousin manager in there who disagreed with him and beat him silly with a baseball bat. I don't think that was about Lucious offering up sex to Lee Daniels.

On to other thoughts about the episode:

I don't like what they've done to Anika. I actually WAS a debutante and I just am clutching my pearls at how low they've sunk Anika. I keep thinking she should just be ruthless with Hakeem and get hers - honestly I wish she had cozied up to Lucious and then passed the baby off as his. I think one thing that has been missing this season are the Cookie/Anika battles - those made the show last season. I wish they hadn't sailed and sunk the Lucious/Anika ship. I feel like that's the storyline direction that makes sense for Anika and it would be sweet justice to Lucious for passing off his own child onto Jamal like he did with Lola (and for forcing Jamal to be with whatsherface).

Hakeem and Laura have no chemistry... they sometimes look sweet together, but there's just no heat and she's just too sweet and innocent and just "there" with zero spark. She's boring and only serves as the "madonna" to Anika's "wh@re" right now. I'd much prefer for her to disappear and then have Camille come back and duke it out with Anika. I'm just mad they'd be duking it out over a simp like Hakeem. He's a baby.

Anika deserves a better story - my only hope is that the writers fix this (since Anika hasn't told anyone she's pregnant) and have her switch and get Lucious drunk or something and sleep with him. SOMETHING other than this Hakeem foolishness.

But since I never get what I want, I predict that Camille will dispatch with Laura with the quickness and then Anika and Camille will square off over Hakeem. Anika deserves better than this.

I'm sad about Laz being gone because I love to look at Adam Rodriguez. I do think though that they resolved that way too fast, although I do think his crew is going to come back and try to mess up Cookie's Cookout. I'm mad they are still here but Laz isn't.

Lucious is about to leverage Empire and LOSE it on this dud Streaming company. He's about to lose Empire and have nothing left but the old music rights to his original songs.

Jamal and Skye... I don't know what to say about that except that I've never seen Alicia Keys look so gorgeous. Wow. That hair color on her was gorgeous. It made her look luminous. But not gorgeous enough for Jamal to kiss her. Is Lee Daniels trying to teach us something about homosexuality or is he trying to make Jamal more like Nolan Ross from Revenge? Then he shouldn't have used Jamal being gay as such a huge plot point.

I did love that song that Jamal and Skye sang though - I think every season is going to have a "Conqueror" kind of song in it. That was beautiful.

[Dee]

If the network didn't want Gathers cannibalism made explicit, there's nothing Michael K. Williams or any other "high profile" actor could've done to make it any clearer, no matter how good an actor they are.

 

Chris Rock may not be considered an A list dramatic actor but he's no slouch. He recently had a richly lauded star turn in 'Top 5,' a film which he wrote and directed, AND an acclaimed run on Broadway in The Motherfucker With the Hat. That's not the resume of a lightweight actor. Besides, it seems silly to raise so much hay over a one episode character that was essentially used to bring closure to a story that began last season. Chris acquitted himself well and Terence & Taraji sold Frank for the badass he was purported to be, so all is well that ends well.

[RCharter]

If the network didn't want Gathers cannibalism made explicit, there's nothing Michael K. Williams or any other "high profile" actor could've done to make it any clearer, no matter how good an actor they are.

 

Chris Rock may not be considered an A list dramatic actor but he's no slouch. He recently had a richly lauded star turn in 'Top 5,' a film which he wrote and directed, AND an acclaimed run on Broadway in The Motherfucker With the Hat. That's not the resume of a lightweight actor. Besides, it seems silly to raise so much hay over a one episode character that was essentially used to bring closure to a story that began last season. Chris acquitted himself well and Terence & Taraji sold Frank for the badass he was purported to be, so all is well that ends well.

Thats why an actor like Williams wouldn't have made it "explicit,"  he has an ability to play very nuanced, but you get the point.  You have your opinion and I have mine.  My opinion is that Williams would have been able to make the point, without having to be explicit about it.  And to be honest, Chris Rock is a much higher profile actor than Williams, so I'm not sure where that comes from.  Rock has hosted the Oscars, he has had numerous appearances on network TV.  Both of William's big shows (The Wire, Boardwalk Empire) were on cable stations with lower viewership.

 

Again, I never said that Rock was a bad actor, nor did I say he did a bad job.  However, I think Williams would have done a better job.  It seems silly to me that anyone would seriously think that Rock could play a better gangster than Williams who has played the role successfully a number of times.  I never said that Rock did a bad job, I said that Williams would do a better job.  That should be fairly clear from watching the two of them act, or even taking a glimpse at their resumes.

 

In my opinion Williams would have been a far superior actor in the role,  and I think who played the role could have made a difference since Gathers was so important to the story.  You said thought it didn't matter and that any "lesser known actor" could have played the role without it making a difference.  And there we are, I think someone would have been better than Rock, you seem to be of the opinion that it didn't make much of a difference who played Gathers.  Agree to disagree.

 

That's not the show's fault. That's the viewers problem.

Nothing about Frank Gathers would change if the character was played by a lesser known actor.

Edited December 1, 2015 by RCharter

[represent]

Chris Rock may not be considered an A list dramatic actor but he's no slouch. He recently had a richly lauded star turn in 'Top 5,' a film which he wrote and directed, AND an acclaimed run on Broadway in The Motherfucker With the Hat.

 

 

Yeah, Chris Rock is up there, when the stick in their ass Oscars calls you to host, you have a couple of Grammy's and yes, you've had some pretty good actors star in your films, slouch you are not.  Quite frankly, IMO Chris Rock has more clout in Hollywood in general, than Terrance Howard.  I've watched enough of Terrance Howard's career to know that Chris Rock "crossed over" long before he did, of course being a comedian has helped that transition. But yeah, Chris Rock is up there, regardless of how menacing or not his portrayal of Frank Gathers. Hell, Amy Schumer used his backing for that HBO special she had the other day. He executive produced her show, no slouch indeed.

 

In terms of Michael K Williams, he would have been better, but I'm tired of him playing the mobster, drug dealer, gangster. He's played it now in various time periods and I hope he gets to stretch his wings, because JMO, I don't think any actor wants to continue to play the same kind of role. So, he may have been a better Frank Gathers but I found Rock more interesting because Williams had been there, and done that time and time again.

Edited December 1, 2015 by represent

[missbonnie]

Actually, my point about the overflow of guest stars leans towards everybody and their damn dog seeing Empire last season and then calling up Lee Daniels and begging to be on the show. I mean really? Anyway, that's the last thing I'm going to say on the subject.

As far as this week's song with AK, I think that musically Conqueror is the better song. And I had never even heard of Estelle but I loved that song so much that I bought it. The only song I've bought this year is The Power of the Empire or whatever it's called. For me, this year's music is lacking the quality of last season's by miles. I have 10 tracks from last year by the Empire cast.

Edited December 1, 2015 by missbonnie

[tmelange]

I watched an interview with Timbaland, and he said that they get the script notes that tell them what the song has to say, then they have 2 days to create the song. So they're not creating these songs at leisure or even with any sort of normal creative process. And when you take into account there's about three new songs per episode...it's amazing how good the songs are, considering. I mean, if it was easy to craft a hit song, everyone would be like....Helloooo....it's meeee....I was wondering if after all these years you'd like to meet...

 

I really like the Pepsi song. I found myself with the beat stuck in my head. 

[missbonnie]

Is that the one with the trumpets at the beginning? That was a good song, I'd forgotten to mention that one. To be honest, my favorite songs are the ones that have Jussie and Yaz both on them. I really enjoy their voices paired up. My absolute favorite to date remains No Apologies. I will give Empire this, at least we usually get a couple of songs every week. Nashville has been seriously lacking in that area this year. So many little snippets etc. I miss the music.

[RCharter]

Actually, my point about the overflow of guest stars leans towards everybody and their damn dog seeing Empire last season and then calling up Lee Daniels and begging to be on the show. I mean really? Anyway, that's the last thing I'm going to say on the subject.

I absolutely think thats what happened.  But, I think that its sort of cool that a show I like has become such a powerhouse that everyone is clamoring to get on it. Our viewership helped make that happen!  And, I think that it was cool that Lee Daniels has picked some well known faces, and picked people that could really use the exposure.  I was so happy to see Miss Lawrence on the show, he is only a bit player on RHOA, but he seems like such a nice guy, and for him to get the chance to be on a show as big as Empire must have meant the world to him.  

[tmelange]

Is that the one with the trumpets at the beginning? That was a good song, I'd forgotten to mention that one. To be honest, my favorite songs are the ones that have Jussie and Yaz both on them. I really enjoy their voices paired up. My absolute favorite to date remains No Apologies. I will give Empire this, at least we usually get a couple of songs every week. Nashville has been seriously lacking in that area this year. So many little snippets etc. I miss the music.

 

I agree 100 percent. I like the songs best with both brothers performing. It adds dimension to the song. Jussie with that falsetto that goes higher and higher really drives me crazy. It's like listening to Prince "I want to be your lover" where he sings the whole thing in falsetto rather than "Little red corvette." Jussie has a great falsetto, but it's not the most interesting falsetto, IMHO. I don't think he should carry a whole song with it. I don't know. I'm trying to think of a song or singer that uses a falsetto that I can listen to...maybe Usher on Climax, or going back, like that guy from the Stylistics or Babyface's brother from After 7. Obviously, Smokey Robinson. I guess. I don't know. lol

[Dee]

From interviews, it's been said that Jussie's songs were the most popular last season, which is why they doubled down on his music this season.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

Empire Tries To Blind Us With Bull
Between the Pepsi, the deception, and the streaming, everyone's eyes are brown as can be.

[missbonnie]

From interviews, it's been said that Jussie's songs were the most popular last season, which is why they doubled down on his music this season.

And as much as I love some of his songs, Yaz is just as talented yet doesn't get nearly the press coverage. I think that's sad because if you know his back story, he was already a rapper who was having some success. He wanted to drop out of high school but his mother helped him get his priorities straight and I think that's very cool. I thought that I read somewhere that Drip Drop was the leading downloaded song from the first season?

Edited December 1, 2015 by missbonnie

[RCharter]

And as much as I love some of his songs, Yaz is just as talented yet doesn't get nearly the press coverage. I think that's sad because if you know his back story, he was already a rapper who was having some success. He wanted to drop out of high school but his mother helped him get his priorities straight and I think that's very cool. I thought that I read somewhere that Drip Drop was the leading downloaded song from the first season?

I have that Drip Drop on my MP3.  You may now mock me.

[Queena]

I'm subscribed to the Empire playlist on Spotify. While last year songs were great, there's some great songs this year. For some strange reason, I like most of Terrence Howard's songs. Not all of Jussie's songs have been good this year. I listened to the rap battle long before I saw the episode, and IMO Hakeem didn't win. I do agree that when Jussie and Yaz are on a song it's much better.

I too think that Anika's storyline would be much better if she pinned the baby on Lucious. Her even being with Hakeem makes her so gross, and now that she's stalking him and his girlfriend, it's even grosser. While I know Lucious was wrong for messing around with Cookie, it's obvious that they're not together now. You would think that she would've claimed her spot and got back with Lucious.

They took Drip Drop off of Spotify...

[represent]

You would think that she would've claimed her spot and got back with Lucious.

 

 

 

Since I didn't watch last season completely, I don't really get Anika's background. Isn't she middle class or something like that. Isn't her father a doctor or something? Why and how the hell did she hook up with Luscious?

 

Because Luscious may own a company but he'll always be who he is so I don't even get how Anika found her way into his sphere with her debutante ass.  I know opposites attract but....She's just not a match in any way for the likes of Luscious.  But I suspect that's why he was attracted, she poses no threat in his eyes because she has no backbone. 

 

Yeah, I'm sure there are some debutantes that could slice your throat without a fuss and with makeup/hair in tact, she's just not one of them as far as I can see.

Edited December 1, 2015 by represent

[mack6986]

From interviews, it's been said that Jussie's songs were the most popular last season, which is why they doubled down on his music this season.

I can understand why. For the most part his songs are pretty good. I just can't take too much of his voice. He always sounds so Auto-tuned and unnatural to me, even in his more candid moments, like when he's playing around at the piano. He's like Rayna James from Nashville- I don't buy either of them as the mega-talented artists they're supposed to be.