People in charge (supposedly)

[caracas1914]

it's perfectly feasible to change the cast

 

Game of Thrones, Day of the Dead?  Maybe but those are cable.  And Degrassi High is not comparable to American network TV shows. Doesn't make network TV shows better but we are talking feasibility here.

 

That's the thing, it's never worked on a network TV show that is expected to run for years to shuffle off your leading cast.  For better or for worse by Season 3 Lea, Cory, Chris and Naya were established  by and large as the leading characters of storylines of Glee.  It's irrelevant to say Matt Morrison should have been retained as the "anchor"  as he was in Season One; by Season Three he wasn't so that was that.  That ship had passed.

 

It's hard enough for network TV to get a  cast with chemistrythat  clicks and be a hit, that is why 95 percent of all Tv shows fail to get past year one.

 

So even if Ryan and company wanted to retain McKinley as the heart and soul of the show for Season 4, they  should have somehow retained Rachel, Finn, Kurt , Santana as the leading characters with screen time and story lines because that is how TV  network  shows operate.  For 22 episodes  a season an audience gets invested in characters and it's not that easy to replace them.   Even Ensemble shows that replace *some* key characters, such as "Lost" and "ER" keep other  core characters around front and center to make the transition as seamless as possible. 

 

This idea that Glee could throw out it's main young  cast after only three years was a huge gamble that was not backed up by any precedence of  any prior prime time network TV show.  EVER.

 

So yea, changing your main cast on a network TV  show has no track record of being "feasible".

[camussie]

In theory the show could have remained centered on the choir room but RM and team, including Fox, made the choice to not do that the second they de-emphasized Will's role, which happened in season 2.  Rachel and Finn were always lead characters.  Kurt was added to that mix in season 2 and Santana in season 3.  Meanwhile Will's role kept being diminished.  I suspect that had a lot to do with RM and company responding to the hype of the tours rather than a deliberate plan on their part.  As little as I think of their ability to story plan, even I don't think if they really thought through what keeping the choir room the heart of the show meant they would have diminished Will's role that much.  

 

The problem is that they just didn't think it through.  Let's say they got the spin-off at the end of season 3.  They would have been even more screwed because Finn was planned to be a part of that.  That would have left them with a very diminished Will as an anchor for the choir room.  Probably one of the reasons Fox nixed the spin-off.  The other being that i think having a spin-off would have tanked both shows within the season.  The most obvious solution was to just let go of Lima and follow a select number of the "kids" to New York (my choices Finn, Rachel, Kurt, Santana, Artie, Mercedes, and Blaine if we must) but RM and Fox both decided against that, hoping to be able to create the next generation of Glee stars.  

 

I can even get that why they wanted to give that a try but I will never get owning up by mid-season 4 that it was not working and deciding to wrap Lima up by the end of season 4. That will always be the most baffling decision of all to me - that RM decided to extend the school year to try and make "fetch" happen and that Fox not only let him but rewarded the show with a two year renewal.

 

As far as the writing for NY only it sucked because it seems like everyone was a special snowflake in some form or another.  Of course Rachel was the specialist snowflake of all but Blaine and Mercedes weren't far behind.  Even Sam, Kurt, and Santana made some fairly impressive strides for being so young yet they for the most part they all seemed to walk around with as if they had the weight of the world on their shoulders.  Meanwhile the one character, who probably really did struggle, Artie, was background.  His story about the challenges of getting around New York in a wheel chair was probably my favorite of the NY only episodes and as of this moment he is the only character I find somewhat rootable on Glee anymore.  

Edited June 18, 2014 by camussie

[caracas1914]

I don't think so much that the thought was  the choir room was the "heart and soul" as much as it  was sheer  laziness to get out of their comfort zone. They wanted to recycle the same High School storylines over and over and over with minimum effort.

 

Brad's interview on the problems of a show entering later years, as well as even "American Horror Story's" season arcs petering out at the end indicates  these aren't showrunners who can sustain long drawn out narrative plans for any show without repeating themselves with diminishing returns.

 

Granted, most long running shows do this to some extent, but  these showrunners seemed to display downright contempt to their core audience.

Edited June 18, 2014 by caracas1914

[camussie]

I think a lot of it is combo of both laziness and getting caught up in their own hype. To expand on what I said above I think Will's role was de-emphasized to make room  for the more of the "kids'" stories and that choice was a direct response to the success of the tours.  It certainly didn't take into account the long term direction of the show RM has insisted he wanted (the choir room as the heart).  

 

As far as laziness I am one who doesn't think they have changed Rachel's story in response all that much so yeah that is lazy.  I think they stripped away a fling she would have had this year with either her director or co-star but the rest: a stunning FG debut, getting bored of it all, trying her hand at Hollywood, only to end up back in Lima by series' end (still think that will be because she finds all her success hollow) seems to be the same story with the timing changed up here and there.  

 

I can even cut them some slack for not wanting to make huge changes to their original plan because I am sure trying to slog through when they lost someone they all seemed to really love and respect was difficult.  Where that slack ends is supporting the original plan.  Glee wouldn't have been near the mess it was if those in charge hadn't made bad decision after bad decision since the end of season 3.  Cory's passing exacerbated some of those problems but those problems were already there.  I mean what were the going to do with the seniors graduated and Will left by the 100 episode leaving Finn as the lone original standing in Lima?  They could have kept some of them there through season's end if they did a summer arc but once season 6 hit it still would have been only Finn there to anchor if RM got his way.  In other words Glee was well on its way to bottoming out and I feel Cory's passing merely sped up the process by half a season, at the most.  

 

That is why RM scapegoating Cory's passing as the reason Glee is in the mess it is annoys me so much.  Sure his passing exacerbated the show's issues but his bad planning and contempt for the audience is at the heart of why this show disintegrated.  

Edited June 18, 2014 by camussie

[caracas1914]

In other words Glee was well on its way to bottoming it and I feel Cory's passing merely sped up the process by half a season, at the most.

 

 

The sad thing is I can certainly see Ryan and Company, (it's already started) laying everything on the feet of the tragedy of Cory's death.   Their sheer gall in saying they got rid of the Noobs because McKinely was all about Finn's SL journey is tacky and a bald faced lie, considering how Ryan in pre Season 4 interviews  touted those Noobs as his new stars that would tour and reboot the franchise for another 3 years and beyond.

Edited June 18, 2014 by caracas1914

[camussie]

The really sad thing is many an online Glee fan buys into that.  They very much believe RM, that an entire narrative was funded, including giving 5 newbies contracts, all to support Finn's journey for seasons 5 and 6.  A journey that, to me, seemed to reach its conclusion with his decision to go to college in his last episode - 419.  I mean what was left for him?  Riding the whiteboard and supporting the "kids"?  A romance with a quirky colleague that plays out in the Halls of McKinley? Battling with Sue?  All of that sounds so very riveting (using my best sarcastic voice).   Even in between "Swan Song" (where Finn managed to bring ND back together) and "Sweet Dreams (when Finn went to college) Finn was playing support to the kids - namely Sam & Blaine.  Given that his story really reached its pinnacle in "Swan Song" but for some reason they put off the logical next step - Finn going to college until several episodes later with "Sweet Dreams."  Not only did that put a huge pause in his story (during which I think we got a pretty good glimpse into what his season 5 role would have been) but it also had him starting college in April instead of January.  

 

Sure they would have been some requisite Finn/Rachel angst here and there (I suspect the rough plan to for a season 5 finale was Rachel asking Finn to move to NYC) but RM laid out that his plans was for the two of them to have separate stories until the last few moments of the series.  In between those moments of angst Rachel's journey would move at light speed all so she could end up "home" in Lima and Finn's would have plodded along at a snail's pace all so he would be in that choir room when Rachel returned.  

Edited June 18, 2014 by camussie

[caracas1914]

The really sad thing is many an online Glee fan buys into that.

 

Well, those are the same ones who think that Blam/Noobs McKinley was the "Golden Age"  of Glee. 

 

It's funny how now some of those same fans  think Season one was "overrated" and doesn't looks as good now , well fuck, nothing looks the same through the prism of time.  When something creates buzz/zeitgeist  at that particular point of time, it's irrelevant if later others don't "get" it.  The point is it was a phenomenon when it started.   It was very big and had a lot of water cooler cred , critical acclaim and huge ratings.  Plus it was unprecedented how it created two sold out musical tours and ITUNES sales, etc.

 

Years later others may think , for example,  that "Game of Thrones" or "Orphan Black"  was overrated, overhyped but that's neither here nor there. (and NO, LOL, I'm not saying that now Glee is comparable to those shows, but rather the first year when it first came on)

Edited June 19, 2014 by caracas1914

[tom87]

From what I have seen those who like the later years of glee started glee late. 

 

I still find the first season very enjoyable and even 2 and 3 are more enjoyable compared to  season 4.  

 

I like season 5 more than 4.

 

I remember when I thought Night of Neglect was bad now I would watch that over  Pupper Master and Dynamic duets any day.

[jaytee1812]

From what I have seen those who like the later years of glee started glee late. 

 

I still find the first season very enjoyable and even 2 and 3 are more enjoyable compared to  season 4.  

 

I like season 5 more than 4.

 

I remember when I thought Night of Neglect was bad now I would watch that over  Pupper Master and Dynamic duets any day.

 

While I know that seasons 1-3 are better, there are still somethings I love about seasons 4 and 5. I like the noobs, and much as I hated Tina's story lines I did like getting to see more of Jenna Ushkowitz perform. 

 

I can't completely hate Night of Neglect or Puppet Master given they contain two of the best dance routines ever on the show. I'm with you on Dynamic Duet, and I'll add Promasaurus 

Well, those are the same ones who think that Blam/Noobs McKinley was the "Golden Age"  of Glee. 

 

It's funny how now some of those same fans  think Season one was "overrated" and doesn't looks as good now , well fuck, nothing looks the same through the prism of time.  When something creates buzz/zeitgeist  at that particular point of time, it's irrelevant if later others don't "get" it.  The point is it was a phenomenon when it started.   It was very big and had a lot of water cooler cred , critical acclaim and huge ratings.  Plus it was unprecedented how it created two sold out musical tours and ITUNES sales, etc.

I don't think Glee ever had a "Golden Age" even season one had some real clunkers of episode, and this was a creative team never on a first name basis with continuity. 

 

But Glee was a phenomenon, partly because it was so different from anything seen before. But partly because they tapped into something with the 'loser' tag they gave the characters. I actually find it hard to believe those in charge managed to screw it up so badly!

[caracas1914]

I don't think Glee ever had a "Golden Age" even season one had some real clunkers of episode, and this was a creative team never on a first name basis with continuity.

 

I do think  it was a  "Golden Age" in being a phenomenal hit/cultural zeitgeist buzz show.   To deny that is to bury one's head in the sand.  Some shows that are phenomenally successful I think sucked even  when they were at their peak, but it doesn't mean I can't acknowledge they were that big.

 

But Glee was a phenomenon, partly because it was so different from anything seen before.

 

Agreed.  To their credit, it was different what RIB conceived for network TV.  

 

  It's like when someone sees the 1933 "King Kong" now, it's hard to understand that audiences back then were floored by something they had never seen previously.

Edited June 19, 2014 by caracas1914

[jaytee1812]

I do think  it was a  "Golden Age" in being a phenomenal hit/cultural zeitgeist buzz show.   

 

Totally. The big change I noticed from season 4 and 5 is I can't tell from twitter when the show's being broadcast in the UK. The early season my timeline was practically full of people watching and commenting. Frankly if it was for the fact I follow several cast members I probably wouldn't see any reaction on twitter when its broadcast in the US either. 

[tom87]

I can't even remember the dance scene in the Pupper Master so....

 

I didn't hate the noobs,  I found them moslty unintersting that that is worse than hating them.  If I hate something at least it gave me some kind of emotion.

 

 

The golden age of glee was season 1 without a doubt .   Season 2 got some buzz but it mostly was a let down casue they started straying from thier original set up and went to PSAs and tributes.

[jaytee1812]

I can't even remember the dance scene in the Pupper Master so....

 

Jake dances to Nasty/Rhythm Nation. Pretty much if Jacob Artist or Harry Shum dances I'm happy enough. 

 

The golden age of glee was season 1 without a doubt .   Season 2 got some buzz but it mostly was a let down casue they started straying from thier original set up and went to PSAs and tributes.

 

Script wise definitely. I think the music/performances were better in season two and three.

[tom87]

Jake dances to Nasty/Rhythm Nation. Pretty much if Jacob Artist or Harry Shum dances I'm happy enough. 

 

Script wise definitely. I think the music/performances were better in season two and three.

I kind of liked the simpliness in season 1 cause it fit. 

[Sara2009]

" Puppet Master " also had Will/Sue doing " Cheek To Cheek."

[Coxfires]

I kind of liked the simpliness in season 1 cause it fit. 

Agreed. I liked when the costumes were just the kids trying to have similar outfits/colour themes without it being "grand production", just like them being all in jeans/red shirt in DSB. 

Season 2 brought also lots and lots of Top40 songs, and musical diversity, IMO.

[heyerchick]

Glee's showrunner has less of a 'plan' for his series than poor impulse control and a short attention span.

[Scarlett45]

Whatever potential the NY storyline had of revitalizing Glee was lost when the show runners decided to extend the school year nearly 2/3rds into season 5 and pretty much stiffled any chance of really developing the NY location. We were left with only 7 episodes that were exclusively in NY (following a season where the NY storyline averaged around 10 minutes of screen time per ep and was completely absent from three episodes). I don't think it's reasonable to expect that full storylines for all the major characters can fully be developed given those time constraints.

How the NY storyline played out also was very problematic and didn't allow for real development of stories. Instead of filling out the cast with proper recurring characters that could flesh out the stories of Kurt, Rachel and Santana (at that point, the three in NY), we had stunt guests who gobbled up focus and the stories became about featuring Kate Hudson and Sarah Jessica Parker rather than showing Rachel struggling at NYDA or Kurt finding a possible career path at Vogue. Kurt's band became about featuring Adam Lambert and Demi Lovato. We didn't get a proper NY-centric episode until Moving Out, and that was focused on (at that time) McKinely characters (Sam & Blaine). When we finally got to the completely NY episodes, they ended up being dominated with Rachel's Funny Girl story (told with the finger firmly on the fast foward button and allowed no real development) and an overload of Samcedes. They were trying to tell an entire season worth of stories in 7 episodes and nothing ended up working satisfactorily.

As if to add insult to injury, no sooner does the show finally have a center again in NY (after more than one and a half years of a deeply uneven split focus) that they split up the cast again to multiple locations. With Rachel off to LA, Sam to Lima, Mercedes to everyone and Kurt and Blaine in NY, we're back to no real center of the show. The NY storyline never was given the chance to succeed.

Amen to this entire post, especially the italicized portion. The show lost a great shot at quality stories when they failed to bring quality secondary characters to NYC to flesh out the stories.

The seven episodes in NYC felt like whiplash, speeding through Samcedes, Rachel's broadway dreams, what in the world was Kurt doing in these episodes? Sam could've actually has storylines around modeling, Kevin could've used his acting chops and had storylines in Film School.

I had hope we might get a decent season in NYC but my glee dreams have been smashed. I will remember the show as seasons 1-3 with the tribute episode thrown in.

[ShadowDenizen]

Atrocious writing aside, I thnk one of the reaons the show has gone downhill so quickly is due to the fact that they lost sight of what the show was about- a group of underdogs! (More specifically, a group of outcast underdogs in a high-school.)

 

By the same token, you cna't have constant slushie-ing either; you need to give your "heroes" some victoires to temper the drama.

 

But by giving everyone their heart's desire right out of high-school (particularly Rachel, who has arguably been the focal point of the show since Season 1) , you've essentially lost any sense of empathy the viewing audience migth have left for the character.  I would have been much happier if the opening night of "Funny GIrl" was the series finale.  (And Sam's "Hearts Desire" was to appear on the side of a bus? Riiight. Good job, writers.)

 

And agreed that the recycled plotlines did no-one any justice.

Edited June 23, 2014 by ShadowDenizen

[Hana Chan]

Rachel went from being the star at McKinely to the star at NYADA (being the first freshman ever to win Winter Showcase) to getting her dream role in less than a year with barely a hiccup to interupt her rise to the top? What challenges did she face? A nasty dance teacher who justifiabily thought that her dance skills (and attitude) were lacking and then turned around and became another cheerleader without any rational? Losing Midnight Madness to Kurt, only to have him hurry out to sign her up for the Funny Girl auditions because she was feeling too sorry for herself? You can't take your keystone character and give her a storyline that is basically little more than fantasy wish fullfillment and not have it negatively impact the show as a whole.

 

Rachel wasn't the only one who got these treatment. Just the most glaring example. We had Mercedes who was able to score 2 recording contracts since graduation and have enough pull to shift production to NY despite not having a single album sold. Or Blaine, who manages what neither Kurt, Rachel, Elliot or Jesse St James managed - getting into NYADA on his first try based solely on his audtion (which we didn't see) and scores the big benefactor over Kurt. Sam goes from surfing on Kurt's sofa for months to winning a prime modeling job with minimal effort. It's not that characters are finding success outside of high school, but that so many of them are finding such outlandish levels of success so quickly.

[caracas1914]

All teenage/high school based shows have this challenge with the characters as they grow up and supposedly mature and become more adult,  such as "Boy meets World", "BH 90210" or any show with a lot  younger characters.   Glee showrunners sometimes act as if it was some huge obstacle faced for the first time in network history only by them.

 
What I don't like was the desengenuous way RM handled things....if anybodys think that RIB/FOX seriously contemplated letting Lea/Cory/Chris go  after Season 3 they are smoking way more than even Colorado or Washington would allow.

 

So if we take it those core characters weren't going away, then it behooved the show to have done whatever they needed to do in the format to accommodate that reality and maintain them as the leads.    What they tried was epic fail,  and all this distracting side  talk of the showrunners of "realism" , "supporting performance arts,  graduating students, NY versus Lima, etc, is just CYA bullshit.

Edited June 23, 2014 by caracas1914

[tom87]

What I don't like was the desengenuous way RM handled things....if anybodys think that RIB/FOX seriously contemplated letting Lea/Cory/Chris go  after Season 3 they are smoking way more than even Colorado or Washington would allow.

 

Especially when Brad flat out says... If you have someone like Lea Michele under contrat you use her. 

 

Losing Midnight Madness to Kurt, only to have him hurry out to sign her up for the Funny Girl auditions because she was feeling too sorry for herself?

 

 

Yes he singed her up for the adition.  We get it.  Was she really feeling sorry for herself  cause it was presented as yet another lesson to learn  and she was afraid she would never be able to handle fame w/o being a diva.

 

Either way the writers forgot all that so in the end it doesn't matter that Rahel learned yet another lesson at the hands of Kurt  so it doesn't matter what action he took or she took casue they erased them all anyway.

 

Season 4 was a waste and Rachel's Bway dream really boiled down  to a one off episode. 

[Hana Chan]

Either way the writers forgot all that so in the end it doesn't matter that Rahel learned yet another lesson at the hands of Kurt  so it doesn't matter what action he took or she took casue they erased them all anyway.

 

The problem with the lesson of the week treatment that Rachel was getting was that they never actually let her fucking learn anything! When the fuck did she ever actually deal with a real consequence of her behavior? She treats Kurt like shit and he makes sure that she gets her dream audition. She then spends weeks treating Kurt like shit in season 5 and he leads the efforts to support her before her opening night. She lies to her boss and blows off a performance and gets a tv development deal. My biggest beef with how Rachel (and Blaine) get treated by the show is that their crappy behavior gets rewarded rather than punished.

 

We've seen it over and over again. Rachel acts like a self-entitled diva bitch, gets a smack on the hand, apologizes and the does the same thing next week. Wash, rinse and repeat. I wish that they would actually have her character grow up and show some maturity and consideration for those who she calls her friends and stop treating them as her step and fetch its all the time. She acts like a brat in her dance class and not only doesn't flunk but has the teacher who made her miserable just pass her because she's special. She bails on school, insulting the dean who gave her enormous support and of course her show is a hit. Rachel is learning that she can do whatever she wants and everything will go her way in he end. For those of us who want to see a more balance storyline, it's very discouraging.

 

The treatment Rachel has been getting from the writers has been appalling. They've destroyed all the good things about her character that made you want to sympathize with her even when she was acting badly and instead we have this Special Snowflake Princess who gets everything and everyone kisses her ass no matter how she treats tem because she's just. So. Fucking. Special.

Edited June 24, 2014 by Hana Chan

[tom87]

The problem with the lesson of the week treatment that Rachel was getting was that they never actually let her fucking learn anything!

 

 

 

Isn't that what I said?   :)

Edited June 24, 2014 by tom87

[Advance35]

I hated Rachel in Season 1 but I was always glued to the screen to see what she would be up to from week to week.    And I pretty much have every song she's ever sung on the show.   I  thought she was a very good antagonistic character with vulnerability.   Than they turned her into a pollyana, helping Kurt in S2 when he didn't have a duet partner when in S1 I don't think she would have cared that much.   Than in S3 they had her rallying around SANTANA LOPEZ of all people (after the way Santana treated her during school) and I just felt Rachel had lost her edge, what surprised me was that on reflection, I felt the show lost it's edge right along with her.    I think Rachel's character really gave the show that "omph" in the early day's (though I didn't appreciate what she did for the show until Season 2) and when they pushed ahead characters like Kurt, Santana and later Sam, Blain and trying to make sure every character got a storyline, the show fell apart.   Great 1st season, some good Season 2 episodes (though not many) and by the end of the "Everyone get's a storyline even characters that started as background and should have stayed that way" hour formerly known as Glee, concluded it's 2nd Season, it was all over.

 

Such a shame.

Edited June 24, 2014 by Advance35

[caracas1914]

Fox Upfront Commitments Fall 10 Percent to About $1.6 Billion

Fox is close to selling out its primetime upfront inventory for the 2014-15 television season. And like last year, the network is down about 10 percent in dollar volume, putting it at around $1.6 billion compared to last year’s upfront haul of $1.8 billion.

--------

How this affects Glee? 200 million less doesn't spell much budget leftover for a lame duck lowest rated show left on the FOX schedule.

[Camera One]

From another thread:

 

I just find the ER, Friday Nights live, Lost , Grey's Anatomy comparisons to Glee not applicable because through the first 5-6 years of those shows there were clear leading characters who remained that way despite being "ensemble" casts with multiple actors transitioning in and out.

The Coach and his wife were the lead characters in "Friday Nights Live", in ER, it was Clooney and several others for at least 5 years, ditto Greys Anatomy with Grey, Derek, Izzie and Christina, etc, etc.

None of those shows had the fucked up idea to replace the leading characters with 2.0 imitations after 3 years and make heretofore clearly supporting characters who were manned by weak actors at best (Chord, Jenna, Darren and Heather) suddenly "lead characters." Glee literally threw away it's successful mix of actors/chemistry that helped make it a hit so suddenly you had a split narrative where it leading actors made cameo appearances while everything but the kitchen sink was thrown to shove the new revamped McKinley down the public's throat.

Who the fuck extends a losing proposition by not ending a school year because the show runner can't admit he erred in trying to make new stars?

Only Glee.

ER and the rest were not that mind staggeringly stupid.

Plus those shows had decent writers.

I agree none of those shows had the audacity to sideline the main cast three years into a show.

There have been some shows where the main characters were written out in Season 3. One would be "Boston Public", but then again, it was cancelled by Season 4. And even there, it was only the 2 main characters who were written out, while many other "originals" remained.

Edited July 1, 2014 by Camera One

[jaytee1812]

while everything but the kitchen sink was thrown to shove the new revamped McKinley down the public's throat.

 

 

They tried everything but decent storylines, creating strong characters and giving them music that suited them! 

[Hana Chan]

200 million less doesn't spell much budget leftover for a lame duck lowest rated show left on the FOX schedule.

 

Ryan Murphy might have his grand vision of the choir room being the center of the universe, but it won't do a whole lot of good if the network isn't willing to pay for a cast to populate it. And they're talking about needing enough people to try to make three choirs operable. Even paying scale, that's a considerable chunk of change that I don't know if FOX is willing to swallow. And they can't just be extras to sit in their chairs while Lea/Darren/Matt since in front of them. They need to have at least some fleshing out (the way the Warblers were in season 2) so that the leads have something to work with. And they can completely forget about any big name guest stars that RM likes to trot out - this is going to be bare bones casting.

 

Just as problematic is going to be paying for all those song royalties. I don't think we're going to see as many songs in the coming season, and they won't be the latest hits (which will be the most expensive).

 

Glee is beyond a total mess right now. If they can't even announce how many episodes are being ordered (I believe that 13 is just an educated guess on the parts of those who offered that number) or when production might start so that actors and crew can get their lives in order, then nothing is set in stone yet. This is going to be a very unnerving summer for those in the cast who don't have anything to keep them distracted. I'm betting that a few are really praying that they have day jobs come fall.

Edited July 1, 2014 by Hana Chan

[Camera One]

They tried everything but decent storylines, creating strong characters and giving them music that suited them!

They basically tried to replicate Season 1. Except we were already sick to death of those storylines since they already tried to repeat them with the existing characters in Season 2!

Edited July 1, 2014 by Camera One

[indeed]

The writers' room needs the most overhauling...and will probably be the only thing untouched.

[caracas1914]

It pretty clear  that Ryan Murphy thought the biggest find was Melissa Benoit.  Granted IMO  the actress is talented, she's pretty and she has a lovely voice.  The problem was that the character they wrote for her (Marley) was as compelling as soil erosion, and putting her in a tired triangle with two even less charismatic actors (for all that they are nice eye candy) was recipe for disaster.

 

Then again, these are the same show runners who thought Dean Geyer and Lea Michelle had scintillating chemistry.  The problem was that past the original cast, the Glee people never reproduced the same magic with any of the characters brought in later.  Arguably the exception was  Darren because of the "Klaine" of it all, but the hubris and arrogance of thinking they could make lightning strike twice was obvious.

 

Then again, they let Jonathan Groff, Gustin Grant, etc, among others slip through their fingers.

Edited July 1, 2014 by caracas1914

[jaytee1812]

Marley had no personality, yet everyone thought she was wonderful. The other newbies had nothing that didn't relate to Marley. It's telling I loved Kitty when she was being a complete bitch, and Jake improved no end in my eyes when he started being a complete prick. 

[Camera One]

"Nice" characters are always harder to write, and are easily dismissed as bland, which happened to Marley almost immediately. She didn't even get the negative side that Rachel got (who is always portrayed as being full or herself, arrogant and insensitive, even in this past season). I didn't like Kitty any more since she was clearly supposed to be another Quinn or Santana.

Edited July 1, 2014 by Camera One

[Hana Chan]

You can have nice characters that have a bit of edge to them (which gives them some oomph) or you can have the beige paint drying on a beige wall that was Marley. The problem what that the things that they gave her that was supposed to give her character more than just the bland nice girl (the eating disorder & romantic triangles) just made her more bland and pathetic. Marley wasn't just the "nice" girl - she was a total doormat and there's no salvaging a character that just oozes blah. Marley was either the nice girl who couldn't say boo to anyone, or she was a victim of other people's assholery. 

 

Marley hit the trifecta of bland - boring character hobbled by bad writing and played by an actress who couldn't give her enough edge to overcome the overload of boredom. Tina in season one was basically the shy, nice girl of ND and she had miles more in the way of character than Marley did under the best of circumstances.

[jaytee1812]

Tina always had a spark. Even in season one she bitchslapped Artie and Figgins. She's a great character til Props, after that the writers ruined her. 

[Danielle87]

Ryan Murphy might have his grand vision of the choir room being the center of the universe, but it won't do a whole lot of good if the network isn't willing to pay for a cast to populate it. And they're talking about needing enough people to try to make three choirs operable. Even paying scale, that's a considerable chunk of change that I don't know if FOX is willing to swallow. And they can't just be extras to sit in their chairs while Lea/Darren/Matt since in front of them. They need to have at least some fleshing out (the way the Warblers were in season 2) so that the leads have something to work with. And they can completely forget about any big name guest stars that RM likes to trot out - this is going to be bare bones casting.

 

Just as problematic is going to be paying for all those song royalties. I don't think we're going to see as many songs in the coming season, and they won't be the latest hits (which will be the most expensive).

 

Glee is beyond a total mess right now. If they can't even announce how many episodes are being ordered (I believe that 13 is just an educated guess on the parts of those who offered that number) or when production might start so that actors and crew can get their lives in order, then nothing is set in stone yet. This is going to be a very unnerving summer for those in the cast who don't have anything to keep them distracted. I'm betting that a few are really praying that they have day jobs come fall.

 

Wouldn't suprise me if RIB leaked those shitty spoilers about everyone going back to Ohio to get fans to champion for it since Fox wasn't feeling the storylines and doesn't want to give them the go ahead to make utter crap storylines anymore. However, what ended up happening is even some of the biggest Glee loyalists hated the spoilers so they had to push production back to figure out how they'll end this show.

 

The show really doesn't need 13 episodes. I'm sure the push back is there isn't much of a justification for 13 episodes either financially OR creatively. They could easily wrap up season 6 as a special 3 part miniseries or movie and call it a day.

Edited July 1, 2014 by Danielle87

[Anna Yolei]

Wouldn't suprise me if RIB leaked those shitty spoilers about everyone going back to Ohio to get fans to champion for it since Fox wasn't feeling the storylines and doesn't want to give them the go ahead to make utter crap storylines anymore. However, what ended up happening is even some of the biggest Glee loyalists hated the spoilers so they had to push production back to figure out how they'll end this show.

The show really doesn't need 13 episodes. I'm sure the push back is there isn't much of a justification for 13 episodes either financially OR creatively. They could easily wrap up season 6 as a special 3 part miniseries or movie and call it a day.

Word to all of this.

Low ratings aside, there are so many extra expenses that other shows do not have. Other shows with much better ratings have been canned just because it cost too much to keep certain actors around (one example I've been told of was Full House and how the Olson twins were fetching 300k each by the last season). Glee's got choreographers, arrangers, royalty fees and constantly changing costumes on top of whatever increases in pay Lea and Chris and the others have gotten.

A lotta money for a show which loses out to the CW in ratings.

[tom87]

I was looking at costs and oddly enough David Boreanez for Bones makes more per episode than Jane, Matt and Lea combined. 

 

Granted it has maintained steady ratings for years now.

 

Glee last season still earned more money for commericals than Bones.  Of course with the big drop thier asking prcie will  drop a lot so they will have to cut budget big time.

[Sara2009]

Word to all of this.

Low ratings aside, there are so many extra expenses that other shows do not have. Other

shows with much better ratings have been

canned just because it cost too much to keep

certain actors around (one example I've been

told of was Full House and how the Olson twins

were fetching 300k each by the last season). Glee's got choreographers, arrangers, royalty fees and constantly changing costumes on top of whatever increases in pay Lea and Chris and the others have gotten.

A lotta money for a show which loses out to the CW in ratings.

Lea, Jane, and Matt are the highest paid " Glee" actors. An article came out last season stating that they get 80k per episode. I'm assuming Chris makes just slightly less than that.

[cycworker]

Where are you finding the salary info? I'm curious about some other shows, too. 

[Sara2009]

TVGuide( I think) had an article about it back in October.

[tom87]

Where are you finding the salary info? I'm curious about some other shows, too. 

http://www.lipstickalley.com/showthread.php?t=565119

 

For 2013-2014 season... What we do not know how many episodes they were guarantee.  Lea probably ended up making the most overall.

 

Jane Lynch, Glee $80,000

Lea Michele, Glee $80,000

Matthew Morrison, Glee $80,000

Edited July 3, 2014 by tom87

[caracas1914]

Does anybody know how accurate those TV Guide stated salaries are?  I mean is there really have some sort of master list where there is  access to  everyone's salaries,, because my guess is some actors  wouldn't want for various reasons to have their salaries made public.  So I would think some are extrapolated or estimated based on unnamed sources. 

 

For example, Chris Colfer was not listed at all (nor was Naya Rivera, Darren Criss, Kevin McHale, etc) so any estimate to what he makes would assume he makes less than Jane, Lea, and Matthew but I doubt there is any way to actually verify that short of having a copy of his contract.   Chris himself has been pretty circumspect in interviews regarding how much he actually makes. 

Edited July 3, 2014 by caracas1914

[tom87]

I would think they are at least close in their estimates.  I doubt any of the stars want their salaries expose nor do they get a choice in the matter.  the magazine picks who they think will represent the show or are of interest.

 

I am also pretty/very sure Chris makes less than those 3. I have only seen guesstimates on those 3 going back to 2010.  Mostly because they are the leads and Jane is Jane.

 

What I found:

Jane in 2010 at $50k - to 2013 $80k.

2010 for Matt at $30k - $80k now.

2011 Lea at $40k, 2012 at $75 and 2013 - $80k.

 

If Matt started at $30k I would guess Lea was at $25 and Cory $20-25 the rest $15-20k.  A Modern family kid Rico in 2010 was at $15k now at $70k but no way the other glee kids got a huge boost like the MF kids did when the adult did. 

 

Guesses -

Now Chris at $70-75

Naya, Darren - maybe $50-60

Chord/Jenna/Kevin $40-50 tops.

new crop $15-$20.

[caracas1914]

Ryan has had some of his crew people since the Popular/Nip Tuck days of production which goes back nearly 15 years so the fact that some of them are apparently getting delayed a paycheck for an extended period shows things must be screwed up big times  behind the scenes.

 

My impression is that FOX's ex chair Kevin  Reilly threw money at RIB /Glee and they got so cavalierly used to it that if the new regime is playing hardball about everything it's thrown them for a big loop.

 

Just a hunch, but I doubt Ryan Murphy will have the luxury to waltz  into the writer room anymore and famously say he was inspired by the color orange, and than insist on an elaborate number based upon "At the Ballet" because he whimsically got obssessed by that song.

 

FOX may not "care" as much anymore about Glee but I suspect they also aren't going to rubber stamp  any vision/plan of Ryan Murphy for the season either , not while they are still footing the bill. 

[camussie]

I think they won't care as far as creative direction of the show (because why put the energy into a show that will surely be a ratings bust anyway) but they will care as far as budget - they will let RM and team do whatever they want as long as they stay within budget.  A budget that has surely been severely cut.  

Edited July 3, 2014 by camussie

[Hana Chan]

I think that given that we have no idea of when Glee is going to start production (the same for the actors and crew, who are still guessing when they will be returning to work), how many episodes are being ordered by FOX or any other particulars that things are still undecided. It is very possible that FOX gave their best offer and now RIB have to scramble and reorganize all their plans for the season because they are just not going to have the episodes/budget to handle the three show choir "vision". The fact that FOX isn't looking for Glee to be revitalized and is just running out the clock lends even more credence to the idea that they are not giving into Ryan Murphy's whims any longer.

 

I wouldn't be at all surprised if the whole plan for the season is being re-written now to deal with the bitter new reality that is Glee's world. I also wouldn't be terribly surprised if negotiations were still ongoing as to exactly what FOX is willing to give at this point. It also would not be too far out of the realm of possibility that RIB and FOX cannot come to an agreement about how many episodes to film, the budget and a multitude of other issues and make a mutual decision to cancel the final season altogether.

[tom87]

Ryan has had some of his crew people since the Popular/Nip Tuck days of production which goes back nearly 15 years so the fact that some of them are apparently getting delayed a paycheck for an extended period shows things must be screwed up big times  behind the scenes.

 

 

What solid proof do we have they are delayed. The one asst editor who was looking for work later said he is not delayed and he started work on glee last Sept 1 too.

[caracas1914]

What solid proof do we have they are delayed. The one asst editor who was looking for work later said he is not delayed and he started work on glee last Sept 1 too.

 

Actually the Associate Editor stated that he started around Sept 1 last year (after production was delayed due to Cory's death) as a fact  but he didn't say work wasn't delayed.

 

His first tweets said this specifically:  "Thought I was starting way sooner."   I just can't see how that referred to any other TV project other than Glee.   He also said this:  "Not sure what is going to happen.I;m not sure we're dong a full season again this year. Could be off in the winter."

 

Again  I do think all these twitters referred to Glee, as far as delays and uncertainties, now he's somewhat  backtracked by saying technically he didn't start on Glee until Sept 1 last year, but that's not the same thing as denying what he first posted.

 

Agree that none of us know exactly what's going on but my impression from what he tweeting  was he was clearly referring to Glee as far as thinking he was starting way sooner.  Didn't actually refute that.    Since nothing has been officially stated yet my guess is that someone told him to STFU.

 

ETA: Sorry, rereading the twitters,  yea, he might be saying his delay in starting on the show doesn't mean the show itself is delayed.  For all we know Glee decided to use him more sparingly this year, which means..., No I'm going to stop now...LOL.

Edited July 3, 2014 by caracas1914