S02.E04: 204

[MinDC76]

I absolutely see why Helen wouldn't want her kids near Allison right now.  A lot of people that leave their spouses don't end-up with their original affair partner.  I can understand wanting your children to have more stability before having the affair partner becoming ingrained in their lives.  The kids are still in obvious emotional turmoil.

 

Being cheated on and left, especially after having four kids together, is shattering.  Helen's only frame of reference regarding Allison is that she knowingly and actively participated in destroying her family.  Even if Noah is as much or more to blame for that, she has shared history with him that would most likely cause serious cognitive dissonance in trying to wrap her head around his betrayal, especially in the beginning when everything is still extremely raw.  It can take a long time to process the pain of betrayal and the break-up of your family.

 

Plus, Allison and Noah are both deceitful, entitled, seflish, lacking in integrity and pretty unempathetic towards the pain and destruction they have caused to multiple lives.  I am an adult, and I don't like hanging around people who display those characteristics.  I certainly wouldn't be happy about my children hanging around with people that display those behaviors.  Obviously, since Noah is their father, Helen can't and shouldn't keep them away from him.  Clearly, she can't keep them away from Allison forever either, but I see nothing wrong with wanting to limit Allison's contact with her kids until they have adjusted a bit better.

[Nanrad]

Allison is now a fact of Noah's existence.  He's pretty serious about her.  Yes, he lied about it.  But Helen soon learned from her daughter that Noah and Allison are now engaged and living together.  That means Allison is a fixed feature in Noah's life.  Allison will be the children's stepmother.

It is through hostility, and hostility alone, that Helen is trying to prevent Allison from being near her children.  The fact that Noah lied does not change this.

 

I agree.  It seems to be the practice in our society that the spouse comes first ahead of the children.  The children will grow up and make their own lives.  The marriage however is supposed to endure.

Or, Helen is trying to protect her children as well. Fixed feature in Noah's life or not, the kids know who she is and how she's contributed to the current misery in their life. Whitney hates her, Martin (???) is stressed out and already won't talk to his father, so I can imagine his reaction to her won't be all that great, the second son most likely won't take well to her, so all that leaves is the youngest daughter who is up in the air. The fact that Noah lied about where Alison is staying changes many things because Helen can't trust him to be honest about a person who played a crucial part in their divorce, which has had a severe emotional impact on their kids. Considering that the kids know who she is even if they don't know her face, well, some do, how do you think they will feel being around her??? The fact that she will be their stepmother, proves even more why they should take a slow approach to moving in together.

 

But, we're more concerned about Alison finding a place in Noah's life, despite the fact that he's put her first on many occasions, proposed to her, and they eventually get married and have a child. Just like Helen shouldn't be worried about Alison being a temporary thing, Alison shouldn't be worried about finding a place in his life because she gets there eventually. Furthermore, the real reason her living situation is an issue is because she left her life behind to totally depend on a man who barely has his own shit together and is going through a custody battle.

 

I agree.  Helen is ONLY doing this because she's hurt and angry that Noah cheated and left her.  Allison has not done anything to traumatize the children; there's no real reason there needs to be a court order barring her from having contact with them.  Helen is not being reasonable.  She's not putting the best interests of the children first, she's allowing herself to be guided by the devastation she's feeling over her failed marriage.

 

Both Noah and Helen are trying to stick it to each other.  If they were thinking of the children, they would listen to that judge, and figure out an amicable custodial agreement out of court.  And, yes, that would involve Allison being around them because she is Noah's live-in fiancée. 

I think Noah's oldest son would disagree about Alison's actions not being traumatizing as well as the youngest son and Whitney. Did she directly traumatize them? No. But, it's been mentioned and seen that they are all having a hard time and Alison contributed to that pain. Furthermore, Helen didn't request the court order, the judge did and that was AFTER he heard the facts of the case. I think we are looking at this in an angle of two people in love rather than the angle of a woman who is the primary caretaker and is largely responsible for her children. Take Helen off of the counter and Alison leaving with him while he has split custody is still problematic. If either one of my parents cheated, and then left to live with the person they had an affair with, I sure as hell wouldn't want to be around, let alone, stay in the sam house as that person.

[Boundary]

 They really do need to come up with something that makes sense for the kids first and foremost.

 

And it is there, staring at them in the face but they are both too busy trying to one up each other. Shared custody, with the base at the brownstone so the kids wouldn't have to change school and other social aspects of their lives. This would be harder on Helen, especially initially when Noah is finding his feet. Both concessions - time for Noah to find a suitable apartment and for Alison to live with him - would require Alison to make herself as scarce as possible in that initial period when the kids are around (as they currently do) and for Noah to maintain heavy co-parenting duties, not just showing up for birthdays with presents. Eventually Alison becomes a fixture enough in his life, and they start their own family (and Helen moves on too) that the burden of parenting shifts naturally without overbearing on Helen. She finds a man to help with Stacy in particular, while Noah and Alison focus on their own baby; Whitney and the boys grow up and make up their own minds. But the emotional fog has to lift first. 

Edited October 27, 2015 by Boundary

[violetr]

Wow, this is one active forum. What all these heated posts tell me is that people get really, really upset and emotional about affairs and the fallout that ensues, even when it's only fictional. 

 

Two additional thoughts:

 

1. That Lucinda Williams song made my ears bleed. If I never have to hear that again it will be too soon. 

2. Yay, Cole is finally gonna get some action!

[Otherkate]

 

I'm not sure that Noah should let his children impact his relationship with Allison.  The future spouse is a partner while the children are not.  Two categorically different relationships.  I would not wait for a man who puts me aside like this.  Noah needs to find a different way.

 

 

Wow, for me it's the opposite. I wouldn't be willing to be with a man who would willingly push aside his kids for me. I'd have no faith in his abilities as a father and, honestly, it would be a huge red flag for me.

 

Most couples that are breaking up set rules for new girlfriends/boyfriends. They can range from the I have to meet the other person before they're allowed around the kids to waiting up to 6 months for the kids to be allowed to meet the new partner. These things are all done to protect the children who have done absolutely nothing to deserve the situation that they're in and are more than entitled to be the parents' priority. These things are often laid out in mediation and the contract that comes after it (I've been through this) or, the worst case, in court. And there's no way Helen should continue with mediation -- which must be done in good faith -- if she has found out that Noah not only lied about something so major, but that he asked his daughter to lie for him as well. I did mediation and am so happy that I was able to, but we could only do it because we had the kind of relationship where we trusted one another and knew that we both had the children as our priority. The second you think that isn't the case, anyone who has experience in this would send you marching to a lawyer immediately.

[lvbalgurl]

I think Noah's oldest son would disagree about Alison's actions not being traumatizing as well as the youngest son and Whitney. Did she directly traumatize them? No. But, it's been mentioned and seen that they are all having a hard time and Alison contributed to that pain. Furthermore, Helen didn't request the court order, the judge did and that was AFTER he heard the facts of the case. I think we are looking at this in an angle of two people in love rather than the angle of a woman who is the primary caretaker and is largely responsible for her children. Take Helen off of the counter and Alison leaving with him while he has split custody is still problematic. If either one of my parents cheated, and then left to live with the person they had an affair with, I sure as hell wouldn't want to be around, let alone, stay in the sam house as that person.

 

Helen is the one who initiated court proceedings because she found out that Noah was living with the woman he cheated on her with and she didn't like it.  She doesn't want Allison around the kids because she's hurt and devastated, and wants Noah to suffer by not being allowed to live with her.  Not because Allison is "traumatizing" the children.  If she had legitimate examples of Allison behaving in such a fashion, I could support her wish but, all I see is Helen being led by her own emotional devastation over the collapse of her marriage.  The children are upset because the family as they know it has fallen apart.  The BEST thing she and Noah could do for them is to reassure the children that they still love and adore them, to be consistently present in their lives, and to resolve their custodial issues amicably and out of court.  Making ultimatums about Noah's fiancee and going to court will just make an unfortunate situation even worse.  (Which is what is happening.)

[nilyank]

Why does Allison have to live with Noah? Presumably she has a job now as the assistant to the book editor/publisher. She could go back to nursing. If she really needed money to start her life, she has a house that she could sell.

 

There is no reason why Allison needs to live with Noah for the next few months, while he and Helen finalize their divorce and decide on custody.

[GeminiDancer]

He did?  

 

No, he didn't. Alison's perception is that they were flirting, but I think that was more to show how Alison thought Cole seemed "over" the anniversary of Gabriel's death.

[Irlandesa]

Helen is the one who initiated court proceedings because she found out that Noah was living with the woman he cheated on her with and she didn't like it.  She doesn't want Allison around the kids because she's hurt and devastated, and wants Noah to suffer by not being allowed to live with her.  Not because Allison is "traumatizing" the children.  If she had legitimate examples of Allison behaving in such a fashion, I could support her wish but, all I see is Helen being led by her own emotional devastation over the collapse of her marriage.  The children are upset because the family as they know it has fallen apart. 

I don't think "hating" Alison and "traumatizing" the children have to be mutually exclusive.  Of course Helen hates Alison, Noah and the affair.  That would make her see them through harsh eyes. And of course the children are upset by the fact that their family is falling apart but the falling apart can't be separated from the affair.  Noah linked them.  So Helen can fight to keep Alison away from her kids both because she hates Alison/the affair and because her children would be upset even more if they were forced to interact with Alison.

 

And it can be driven by spite and still be the best thing for the kids.  The judge certainly thought it was a reasonable request for the time being.

[grumpypanda]

Why does Allison have to live with Noah? Presumably she has a job now as the assistant to the book editor/publisher. She could go back to nursing. If she really needed money to start her life, she has a house that she could sell.

There is no reason why Allison needs to live with Noah for the next few months, while he and Helen finalize their divorce and decide on custody.

Exactly, no one is saying that Noah and Alison can't be together but it's best for the kids if they don't live together while the kids get adjusted. I understand that they're in love but when children are involved sometimes you have to sacrifice your own needs for the good of the children.

Even Noah said that it would only be for a few months. Alison needs to chill the hell out. If she wanted to be the center of a man's life than she shouldn't have started a relationship with a man that has four kids. Her being his fiancee means nothing at this point. Yes, eventually the kids will have to be around her but for now she needs to step aside.

I suppose it's about time for Alison's “oops" pregnancy. A baby will guarante her a place in Noah 's life and divert all of his attention to her.

Anyway, Alison doesn't want a regular job because she prefers to spend her time wondering around sleepy little towns and charming the locals.

[Nanrad]

Helen is the one who initiated court proceedings because she found out that Noah was living with the woman he cheated on her with and she didn't like it.  She doesn't want Allison around the kids because she's hurt and devastated, and wants Noah to suffer by not being allowed to live with her.  Not because Allison is "traumatizing" the children.  If she had legitimate examples of Allison behaving in such a fashion, I could support her wish but, all I see is Helen being led by her own emotional devastation over the collapse of her marriage.  The children are upset because the family as they know it has fallen apart.  The BEST thing she and Noah could do for them is to reassure the children that they still love and adore them, to be consistently present in their lives, and to resolve their custodial issues amicably and out of court.  Making ultimatums about Noah's fiancee and going to court will just make an unfortunate situation even worse.  (Which is what is happening.)

I never denied that Helen initiated the court proceedings, I'm saying he acted in bad faith--lying about where Alison was staying and told their daughter to lie to her as well, so she went to court. She already flat out told Noah how she felt about Alison being around their kids. I honestly don't believe that Helen believes Alison would physically harm and/or abuse her kids, but she is uncomfortable with Alison being around and we do see at least one child get upset by Alison's presence. We see another with stress so bad that he can barely move and cries out in pain. How do we think the kids are going to react living with the woman who is partially responsible for their heartache??? The woman who their father flat out admitted he left their mother for. No matter how much the Helen and Noah say that they still care and love each other, the kids will only think about how their father left their mother for a woman they have to live with part of the time. And they also see that their mother is taking the divorce hard, which is another strike against Alison. The best thing for everyone would be Alison and Noah living in separate residences for a couple months, because it's still very fresh for the kids, and then gradually easing them into forming a relationship.being around Alison.

 

Custody couldn't be handled amicably because Noah acted in bad faith. 

 

Helen: Noah, I don't want you and Alison living together--I don't want her around my kids.

Noah: We're not living together.

 

Mediation goes well and everything is being handled smoothly.

 

Daughter: Mom, Alison is living with dad.

 

Mediation is then discontinued and court begins.

 

What Noah could've did/say instead: Helen, I know you don't want Alison around our kids, but I love her and she's is and will continue to be apart of my life for the foreseeable future. I know you're angry with me and I get it--I put you through hell, but please...let's not do this. Perhaps...Alison and I can live apart for these next few months so the kids can gets adjusted, and then ease them into meeting her. I know you don't like it, but Helen, we can't be at each other's throats forever--you can't keep an important person in my life away from our kids forever. I won't let you. 

 

BOOM. Expectations set. He compromises with Helen and she's forced to realize (eventually) that he's right.

Edited October 28, 2015 by Nanrad

[briochetwist]

I suppose it's about time for Alison's “oops" pregnancy. A baby will guarante her a place in Noah 's life and divert all of his attention to her.

 

So true! And honestly, that's the only way I see these two staying together. Because nothing kills romance and spontaneous living room sex like the demanding schedules of 4 children and a newborn.   

[CleoCaesar]

I wouldn't be willing to be with a man who would willingly push aside his kids for me. I'd have no faith in his abilities as a father and, honestly, it would be a huge red flag for me.

Hear, hear. Adding on to that, I wouldn't want to be with a man who would willingly push aside a loving wife just to have sex on the side. I'd have no faith in his abilities as a husband. If a man cheats on his wife for you, all you get is, well, a cheater. I wonder if the show will ever explore the "If he'll cheat with you, he'll cheat on you" cliche, or if they will continue to feed us NOAH AND ALLISON ARE TWU WUV 4EVA.

[SlackerInc]

Those rules about new "paramours" after divorce (e.g., waiting six months to introduce them to the kids) are bogus IMO. Fine if it's the way someone wants to handle it, but I felt social pressure to operate that way after my divorce and I flatly refused.

[Nanrad]

Slack, it's about stability. Introducing your kids to every person you date is simply having all of these people come in and out of their lives and some parents honestly would prefer their kids get you to one person they intend on being with for a while. Also, the kids may not respect their parents relationships because it's just the one of many people they've been introduced to. If the parent is dating someone new every other week, what's the point in trying to establish anything or even care for them?

 

I honestly don't care if Noah and Alison do stay together, I care about if they will stop being selfish, grown up, and realize how much they hurt others. 

ETA: what does it look like for Noah to introduce his girlfriend, my bad, his fiancee, in the midst of divorce as his kid still react strongly to the separation. 

 

"Hey kids, I know this divorce thing's been tough and you're still wrapping your head around it, but I'd like you to meet your soon to be stepmother who you'll be living with as well when you visit. Remember," he says to the youngest son, "She's the one I told you about--I fell out of love with your mother because I fell in love with her."

Edited October 28, 2015 by Nanrad

[right]

Hear, hear. Adding on to that, I wouldn't want to be with a man who would willingly push aside a loving wife just to have sex on the side. I'd have no faith in his abilities as a husband. If a man cheats on his wife for you, all you get is, well, a cheater. I wonder if the show will ever explore the "If he'll cheat with you, he'll cheat on you" cliche, or if they will continue to feed us NOAH AND ALLISON ARE TWU WUV 4EVA.

Correct me if I'm remembering this wrong, but didn't we see a montage of Noah screwing a bunch of woman shortly after his initial break up with Helen?  If so, there were a few months where Noah and Allison were apart and it didn't seem like Noah really was missing her much.  The true love angle is lacking if you ask me.

 

As for Helen not wanting Allison around her kids, duh!  What parent would want their children hanging out with a person who exhibits no morals?  She can't keep them from Noah, but if it were me I would do what I could to keep her away from my kids.

[violetr]

Wow, for me it's the opposite. I wouldn't be willing to be with a man who would willingly push aside his kids for me. I'd have no faith in his abilities as a father and, honestly, it would be a huge red flag for me.

 

 

Truth. I was raised by a busy single mom, and I never felt unloved or neglected because I always came first in her life. If a guy wasn't nice to me, he was out the door. She knew she met the right guy when he showed he was perfectly happy to accept me as part of the package deal. They've been married for 30 years now. 

 

I'm so totally with Noah's sister. I don't think he really wants custody of the kids that badly, deep down. I think he just thinks it's the right thing to do. He wants to see himself as a good guy and wants everyone else to think he is, too. 

[lvbalgurl]

I don't get why Helen gets more say on what happens to the kids.  Because Helen lays down an ultimatum about Allison not being in contact with the children, all must obey?  Noah gets just as much say in who he wants around the children as Helen does, and he feels that Allison poses no threat to them and should be allowed contact.  Noah was stupid for even tacitly giving in to Helen's demands, and a doucheface for trying to get his kid to lie about it.  But Helen's decree that Allison not be around them had everything to do with making Noah suffer, not about the best interests of the kids.  The kids are not being traumatized by Allison (she has not even been around any child but Whitney since the split); they are upset because their parents are in the middle of an acrimonious divorce and they feel the family that they once knew has fallen apart.  Noah and Helen are both focused on fucking the other one over, not on the best interests of the kids.  As parents, they should each be reassuring those children of their love and affection, and that they will remain a presence in their lives.  Disappearing Allison is not going change anything if the parents continue to use the children as weapons to one up the other. 

[Boundary]

I don't get why Helen gets more say on what happens to the kids.  Because Helen lays down an ultimatum about Allison not being in contact with the children, all must obey?  Noah gets just as much say in who he wants around the children as Helen does, and he feels that Allison poses no threat to them and should be allowed contact.  

 

 

Totally agree. The only mistake Noah did was to lie about Alison's presence in order to preserve what truce there was. But Helen wasn't truthful about Max either, it's just that she hasn't been caught in the lie yet. I'm not sure whether Whitney and the other kids know about Max, or is that not relevant because Helen's the hurt one? Helen can't have her cake and eat it too.

Edited October 28, 2015 by Boundary

[GeminiDancer]

But Helen doesn't have to say anything about Max because Max isn't the reason why her marriage to Noah imploded. It also seems to me that the kids don't even know that Max and Helen were sleeping together as we haven't seen Max be remotely intimate with her in front of the kids. He never went inside when he knew the kids were in the house after the fundraiser in episode 1.

[truthaboutluv]

I got the impression Helen was doing what many parents of divorce do when they start dating - they keep the budding relationship entirely separate from their kids until it maybe becomes something more. Her mom obviously knew about Max because she's an adult and hates Noah anyway so it's not like she would judge, but I never got the sense that the kids had any idea. And well considering how quickly it all ended, it's sort of a moot point now. 

 

Right or wrong (depending on where one stands on the issue), the fact is there is an added layer to Noah's being with Alison in that she quite literally was a major catalyst for his marriage ending. He not only left Helen for her, he was having sex with her while still married to Helen behind her back. And Whitney and Martin especially are both old enough to know that, which means that fair or not (and I don't think it's unfair in my opinion), in their eyes she's just the woman who fucked their dad and stole him from their mother. That already creates a lack of respect for her.

 

I know some may argue about children just respecting their elders or whatever but again, Whitney and Martin especially are at an age where no matter what Helen or Noah says, they cannot forcibly get them to like or respect this woman. And so that means there is already an inherent awkwardness and tension that you cannot put solely on Helen. The situation is messy and ugly and that largely is because of Noah's choice to have an affair. Again right or wrong, it is simply not realistic to expect that the children will just accept Alison and this situation, even if Noah and Helen try to go, "well you're children and daddy's with this woman so get used to it and her and get over it." Life just doesn't work that way and it's not fair to the children. 

 

Some make the argument about Noah having the right to be selfish with his happiness and not apologizing for that and that's all well and good. But then why is it okay for him to selfishly chase his happiness but everyone else has to just shut up and adapt and accept it or else it means they're being mean and not making poor Noah be happy? As someone noted, no one is telling Noah he cannot be with Alison. What's being said is that they cannot live together at the moment because it will be too difficult and stressful for the children already dealing with the divorce, to then have to share the little time they have with him, with some new girlfriend/fiance whatever who played a significant part in their parents' divorce. 

 

I also disagree about Helen being the awful one causing the situation. The way the whole thing developed from the episodes so far, is that Helen calmly asked Noah (this was his version) after they left the mediation if he was still seeing Alison. The fact that she didn't know if they were even still seeing each other is telling and also adds to the impression, in my opinion, that Noah left Helen and his kids and went off to his little bubble with Alison. When he hesitates, Helen asks if he's living with her which he denies. Then she calmly says she doesn't want Alison near her kids. Noah gets all huffy and like a petulant child, going, "well you can't always get what you want Helen (yeah no shit, I'm pretty sure she never wanted a husband banging another woman in their bed)". Helen again calmly says that she's not asking for anything but just this one thing. 

 

So Helen therefore is now under the impression Noah is living alone even if he is still seeing Alison. So Whitney decides to show up unannounced believing Noah's alone because that's what Helen told her because that's what Helen was told by Noah. Turns out he's not alone and instead has gone and gotten himself engaged. So yes Helen is furious and likely spiteful but as others have said, the mediation is no longer in good faith because in mediation and these types of legal situations, each party is supposed to be honest. Again, Noah still seeing Alison was one thing but his apparently living and engaged to her with this never being disclosed is a complete violation of the good faith. It doesn't matter that it just happened. Helen didn't know that and at that point why would she believe anything Noah says?

 

So they go to court and far as I could tell, and it is possible I missed it or misunderstood, Helen was simply seeking full primary custody with Noah getting weekends. I didn't hear them demand Alison be kept away from the children. The judge is the one who later made the ruling that the children be kept from Alison for the next months until they reconvened. Now yes, goodness knows Helen's lawyer didn't paint a nice picture of Alison or Noah but in fairness, he didn't say anything that was untrue. Noah did have an affair, did move how many miles away to some seaside property, did say he was living alone but then he wasn't, etc. So I personally cannot agree about this supposed awful and spitefulness Helen is doing to Noah. Again the judge is the one who ruled to ban Alison being around the kids and considering I really think that judge hated both Noah and Helen, to me it was telling he would make that ruling. 

 

Of course you didn't say that Helen herself is more likeable due to that and I never implied you said so. You did, however, say it is likeable that she owns her bad choices and I was simply questioning why it's not the same when Noah does the same.

 

 

Except I have repeatedly made it clear that one of the things I dislike most about Noah is that I don't think he owns his bad choices. YMMV but in my opinion, there has always been a not at all subtle undertone in most of Noah's memories that he's the good guy despite his affair and instead he was a man mistreated who finally found someone who adores and worships and loves him. Helen was an emasculating, domineering, dismissive of his writing wife, her parents were awful, evil people who always made him feel not good enough.

 

Frankly even the way he sees Alison compared to her view of herself gives the impression that she practically threw herself at him and pursued him. Noah is especially unlikable to me because it is clear based on his versions that he really sees himself as the good guy being unfairly treated by everyone else when it's like "no dude, you're an asshole." So no, I don't think Noah owns his bad choices. Admitting his affair with Alison doesn't automatically owning his bad choices, not when that admittance comes with rationalizing all the ways he was mistreated and almost making excuses for why he cheated. 

Edited October 28, 2015 by truthaboutluv

[racked]

This show brings out the passion in people! Understandably, since it deals with such real-life issues. I think Helen's reactions are understandable, even if they aren't pretty. But I also understand where Allison is coming from. Everyone comes off a shade of gray here. Even selfish man-child Noah isn't evil. He's just...a selfish man-child.

It was really hard to watch Helen fall apart, but it was a great episode.

[cardigirl]

About the question of whether or not Helen has a right to make the demand that Alison not be around her kids:  While I totally understand why she would say that, and want that, I would hope that once the pain of her situation is less intense, she would see that making it difficult for Noah to see the kids by making that demand will eventually harm her own relationship with the kids.

 

Noah's relationship with his children is HIS to own.  Let him figure out if he made a bad decision with his kids by bringing Alison into their world a little too soon or not. Helen, eventually, will have to only worry about her own relationship to her children. 

 

It's a very hard thing for a left-behind spouse to do, accept the situation and move forward making the best family they can with their children.  Many times, the anger at being left, and seeing the ex with a "replacement" spouse, building a family where the one change is your place next to your ex, creates huge amounts of envy and jealousy.  That's why custody battles are so awful. Some people are jealous that their kids get to keep their relationship with the ex, while they do not.  So it becomes a way to hurt each other, not realizing that they are only hurting themselves more.  

 

AND, if Noah is really the DB many of us seem to think he is, the kids will figure that out soon enough.  The missed birthdays, the missed school events, or never taking their calls because he is busy, all of that will inform the kids about their relationship with their father.  Helen won't have to say anything.  And, in fact, she would be better off not denigrating him in front of the kids.  Because that is a way of involving herself in his relationship with the children.

 

The best divorces (and there can be such a thing) happen when people decide to put the anger away and do what's best for their kids.  It takes awhile to get there, but it can be done. Noah lying about his situation is not helping anyone get to that place.  Helen's mom's anger at Noah isn't helping anyone get to that place.  Helen hasn't been shown being vindictive about Noah in front of the kids, she's trying to keep them in their comfort zone.  While I think she's still holding on to some hope that Noah will come back (it's hard to drop the love quickly when you weren't planning to leave) so she's keeping things status quo at home for now, eventually (one hopes) she will try to build a new life of her own.  

 

What I've seen from Helen is the desire to hold the family together.

I haven't seen as much of that from Noah, until an emergency pressed him to take care of them. He can claim that Helen is keeping him from the family (she may very well be complicating things) but until they show Noah actively missing his kids, I don't know that he is.

 

And Alison, I think she was more than a little puzzled to find out that Noah hadn't told anyone he was with her.  Lack of truthfulness from him would be a concern of mine if I were her.

[izabella]

Correct me if I'm remembering this wrong, but didn't we see a montage of Noah screwing a bunch of woman shortly after his initial break up with Helen?  If so, there were a few months where Noah and Allison were apart and it didn't seem like Noah really was missing her much.  The true love angle is lacking if you ask me.

 

Where was Allison while he was in the rubber room and subsequently bonking all those other women?   Where was Noah living then?  Was he in the cottage 60 miles away already?  And how often has Noah been spending time with his children since he left Helen?

 

I keep getting the impression Noah has barely been around while the kids have been living 100% full time with Helen.  As in, he stops by on occasion, but we never see him taking care of all 4 kids or doing anything with them, like a weekend with the kids or anything like that.

[lovinbob]

Except I have repeatedly made it clear that one of the things I dislike most about Noah is that I don't think he owns his bad choices. YMMV but in my opinion, there has always been a not at all subtle undertone in most of Noah's memories that he's the good guy despite his affair and instead he was a man mistreated who finally found someone who adores and worships and loves him. Helen was an emasculating, domineering, dismissive of his writing wife, her parents were awful, evil people who always made him feel not good enough.

I do agree that Noah sees himself as a good guy, but I think there is also a strong undercurrent of self-loathing. This past episode, he did very little right, IMO. Tearing out of his sister's house--he had to know that was a selfish thing to do, and that it would confuse the hell out of his children. God, What a DICK!  If they wanted to play it like Noah was a victim (or Noah believed he was a victim) of his overbearing sister, they could have painted her far worse. The fact that he looked like such a dick shows me that Noah isn't even on his own side half the time.

Edited November 4, 2015 by lovinbob

[GeminiDancer]

 

Where was Allison while he was in the rubber room and subsequently bonking all those other women?   Where was Noah living then?

 

Noah probably had a room somewhere in the city. Alison was in some commune with her mother.

[grumpypanda]

This show brings out the passion in people! Understandably, since it deals with such real-life issues. I think Helen's reactions are understandable, even if they aren't pretty. But I also understand where Allison is coming from. Everyone comes off a shade of gray here. Even selfish man-child Noah isn't evil. He's just...a selfish man-child.

It was really hard to watch Helen fall apart, but it was a great episode.

It sure does, I've really enjoyed reading everyone's opinions here. I think most of us have been in a somewhat similar situation, whether we were the person that was cheated on, the cheater, the mistress or the child caught in the middle. Personally, I've been three out of the four of these so I can relate to a lot of these characters even if I don't necessarily like them.

[HumblePi]

Where does Helen's moral high ground stand since Noah discovered that she had sex with someone in the bedroom of her Brownstone? Not only that, but why hasn't he brought this fact out in court in the divorce and child custody hearings?

[briochetwist]

Where does Helen's moral high ground stand since Noah discovered that she had sex with someone in the bedroom of her Brownstone? Not only that, but why hasn't he brought this fact out in court in the divorce and child custody hearings?

Uh... when exactly did that happen?  Unless I missed a big chunk of the show, Noah misread that situation.  Her clothes were strewn all over and there was a bottle of wine because she was drunk, by herself.  We saw it.

Edited October 28, 2015 by briochetwist

[truthaboutluv]

Uh... when exactly did that happen?

 

 

 

It didn't but I think the poster is thinking of how Noah saw the house when he brought the children home. Through his eyes it looked like she had someone there because the bedroom was a mess, there was underwear on the stairs, two champagne glasses and the flowers.

 

However we know from Helen's memory that what happened is Max brought her flowers, a sock fell when she was carrying the laundry downstairs and the room was in a disarray while she was by herself, getting drunk and dancing drunkenly around the house.

 

And even if Helen had slept with Max in the house, Noah would have to be the biggest idiot to try and throw that in her face in court seeing as he fucked his mistress on their bed while she and the kids weren't home and she knows he did when she found said mistress' panties in their bed. 

Edited October 28, 2015 by truthaboutluv

[Boundary]

I keep getting the impression Noah has barely been around while the kids have been living 100% full time with Helen.  As in, he stops by on occasion, but we never see him taking care of all 4 kids or doing anything with them, like a weekend with the kids or anything like that.

 

Noah hasn't had suitable accommodation for the kids to stay over with him in a shared custody situation. That subject was brought up in mediation and again in court, with Noah's position essentially being "give me time to sort out my living space, don't make a permanent decision based on my temporary situation." We don't know what the mediator would have decided but we know the judge gave him two months. Alison court order aside, I thought that judge was mostly even handed. 

Edited October 29, 2015 by Boundary

[Neurochick]

Oh gee, poor, poor Helen.  She's got a rich guy who's in love with her, but she's rather kick him out, get high and drink herself silly.  Helen, get off the cross, we need the wood.  And bitch, you don't get to listen to Lucinda Williams either.  Max was right, no one is good enough for poor saint Helen.  No excuse for driving drunk and stoned with your kids in the car.  I don't give a fuck what you're going through.  I love how people think Noah and Allison are so awful, but Helen drove drunk and high with her kids in the car.  Would everybody think Helen was such a saint if she'd killed an innocent person?

 

Yes, we should all have such problems of a rich man who wants to take us to Buenos Arias.  Helen should have taken Max up on his offer and left Noah and Allison with the kids.  

 

Noah's sister (sister in law?) was right, he doesn't really want those kids full time.   If Noah and Allison had the children full time, Noah would wind up cheating on Allison.  See, I think that's really why he cheated on Helen.  Remember the very first scene in the first episode?  Noah wanted to have sex with Helen, but the children kept interrupting.  If the children lived with he and Allison, the same thing would happen.  

 

I wonder if the show will ever explore the "If he'll cheat with you, he'll cheat on you" cliche, or if they will continue to feed us NOAH AND ALLISON ARE TWU WUV 4EVA.

 

I've often wondered if that sentiment is true, or if it's just something people tell themselves to feel better.  What if this is love?  

 

I feel that Noah really doesn't want to be married, maybe Allison doesn't either.  They're just doing what society wants them to.  You left your spouse, you had an affair with this person?  Well then you have to get married or else it won't be worth anything.  

 

I think both Allison and Noah came from fractured family situations.  Noah said his father was a drunk, his mother was dead; Allison's mother flitted around the world and she was raised by her grandmother.  They went in search of family.  Both of them found family but it wasn't what they thought it would be.  Noah married into a snooty, wealthy family who looked down on him; and Allison married into a family that pretended to be upstanding, but in reality were drug dealers.  I think both of them felt stuck and wanted out, they chose an affair as a way out.  But as we're seeing, an affair really isn't the way out because if the initial issue isn't addressed then you wind up recreating what happened in the past.

Edited October 29, 2015 by Neurochick

[cardigirl]

Oh gee, poor, poor Helen. She's got a rich guy who's in love with her, but she's rather kick him out, get high and drink herself silly. Helen, get off the cross, we need the wood. And bitch, you don't get to listen to Lucinda Williams either. Max was right, no one is good enough for poor saint Helen. No excuse for driving drunk and stoned with your kids in the car. I don't give a fuck what you're going through. I love how people think Noah and Allison are so awful, but Helen drove drunk and high with her kids in the car. Would everybody think Helen was such a saint if she'd killed an innocent person?

Wow, well we definitely have different views about Helen. Helen was happy in her rmarriage, Helen trusted Noah, and thought he was happy too. Did she miss some signs that maybe he wasn't? Could be. We only have Noah's POV for that and even in his POV he and Helen were a team.

As for Max, dude shows up saying he's "scheduled" an entire 70 minures for her, most of which is for his pleasure, and he truly cannot take a measure of the room. How in the hell is Helen supposed to move on from loving Noah for 20+ years and decide to go off for a week. If Mas were a real catch, he would have told her he'd wait til she was ready, or that he was there for her in whatever capacity she needed. Instead he acts like a douche and attacks her. NO THANKS to that.

And as has been pointed out, Noah was drinking at his sister's house and had ZERO qualms about driving the kids after drinking.

Maybe Helen isn't a saint, but she is portrayed as a real woman who's had her life turned upside down. It's gonna take some time to heal from that.

[racked]

 .  

 

I think both Allison and Noah came from fractured family situations.  Noah said his father was a drunk, his mother was dead; Allison's mother flitted around the world and she was raised by her grandmother.  They went in search of family.  Both of them found family but it wasn't what they thought it would be.  Noah married into a snooty, wealthy family who looked down on him; and Allison married into a family that pretended to be upstanding, but in reality were drug dealers.  I think both of them felt stuck and wanted out, they chose an affair as a way out.  But as we're seeing, an affair really isn't the way out because if the initial issue isn't addressed then you wind up recreating what happened in the past.

That's a really interesting thought. I've been assuming Allison wanted out of her bleak situation but had her son not died she never would have wanted out. It's interesting to think she may have been unhappy regardless.

[cardigirl]

"I've often wondered if that sentiment is true, or if it's just something people tell themselves to feel better. What if this is love?"

I think statistically it bears out. Second and third marriages have a higher rate of failure than first marriages.

[SlackerInc]

Misleading statistic there. Some significant percentage of the population will just never get divorced, no matter how dissatisfied they are with their marriage. They are skewing the number for first marriages because obviously they are never in second marriages.

If we limited the group studied only to those who actually have second marriages, you would see the opposite: their first marriages had a failure rate of 100 percent, while the second marriages' failure rate is lower than that.

[Boundary]

I think statistically it bears out. Second and third marriages have a higher rate of failure than first marriages.

 

I suppose if you can divorce the first time, you can certainly do it the second time a lot easier but that's me presuming. The lawyer should give a discount, no?

[briochetwist]

Misleading statistic there. Some significant percentage of the population will just never get divorced, no matter how dissatisfied they are with their marriage. They are skewing the number for first marriages because obviously they are never in second marriages.

If we limited the group studied only to those who actually have second marriages, you would see the opposite: their first marriages had a failure rate of 100 percent, while the second marriages' failure rate is lower than that.

That would also be a misleading statistic.  There are a lot of people stuck in second and third marriages that are dissatisfied and don't get divorced simply because they can't afford to.

[Nanrad]

I don't get why Helen gets more say on what happens to the kids.  Because Helen lays down an ultimatum about Allison not being in contact with the children, all must obey?  Noah gets just as much say in who he wants around the children as Helen does, and he feels that Allison poses no threat to them and should be allowed contact.  Noah was stupid for even tacitly giving in to Helen's demands, and a doucheface for trying to get his kid to lie about it.  But Helen's decree that Allison not be around them had everything to do with making Noah suffer, not about the best interests of the kids.  The kids are not being traumatized by Allison (she has not even been around any child but Whitney since the split); they are upset because their parents are in the middle of an acrimonious divorce and they feel the family that they once knew has fallen apart.  Noah and Helen are both focused on fucking the other one over, not on the best interests of the kids.  As parents, they should each be reassuring those children of their love and affection, and that they will remain a presence in their lives.  Disappearing Allison is not going change anything if the parents continue to use the children as weapons to one up the other. 

Would you trust the judgment of a man who comforted his mistress instead of his daughter when a gun was pointed at his child?

 

It's not that Helen gets "more" say--if Helen was dating a guy who she cheated on him with and that subsequently ruined their marriage, he'd be able to throw that back at her. As a matter how fact, if she was dating Max, he'd get some say so too. BUT, we can't pretend that Alison is some random girl he met--the kids know who she is and, from what we seen, that has had a negative impact on the kids. Helen did't say that Noah couldn't be with Alison, she said that she didn't want Alison around her kids. Huge difference.

 

Actually, it is false that they'd still be going at each other's heads if Alison disappeared, Helen was cooperating regarding the divorce and custody when she thought that Alison wasn't living with Noah.

 

Totally agree. The only mistake Noah did was to lie about Alison's presence in order to preserve what truce there was. But Helen wasn't truthful about Max either, it's just that she hasn't been caught in the lie yet. I'm not sure whether Whitney and the other kids know about Max, or is that not relevant because Helen's the hurt one? Helen can't have her cake and eat it too.

That's not it. Helen was sleeping with Max--she's not dating, living, or even engaged to him. She's getting her kitty stroked, and then going about her day. She didn't say that Noah couldn't date--she didn't even say that Noah could't date Alison. She said that she didn't want Alison atone her kids. As far as we know, Max hasn't been around their children.

Edited October 29, 2015 by Nanrad

[Irlandesa]

"I've often wondered if that sentiment is true, or if it's just something people tell themselves to feel better. What if this is love?"

If someone cheats on their partner, there's a good possibility that they'll do it again.  One study I saw said that just under 50% cheat on their next partner.    But 50% is far from "all cheaters."

 

With Noah, it may depend on what he got from cheating.  Was he having a mid-life crisis?  Was he not feeling fulfilled overall?  He wasn't getting the recognition he wanted professionally. He was married to Helen for 20 years and, from what we've been led to believe, Alison was his first affair so doesn't appear to be the result of him being a serial cheater. If he does start feeling appreciated, will that make him feel happier overall in other aspects of his life?

 

But that doesn't mean their relationship will be sunshine and roses.  I suspect their relationship is on shakier ground than they realize.

[Sienna]

As for Max, dude shows up saying he's "scheduled" an entire 70 minures for her, most of which is for his pleasure, and he truly cannot take a measure of the room. How in the hell is Helen supposed to move on from loving Noah for 20+ years and decide to go off for a week. If Mas were a real catch, he would have told her he'd wait til she was ready, or that he was there for her in whatever capacity she needed. Instead he acts like a douche and attacks her. NO THANKS to that.

 

 

+1

 

While there have been a few surprisingly sweet moments outta Max, Helen is sooooo obviously still in pain over Noah, and has a boatload of shit to work through before she'll be anywhere near ready for another relationship.

 

And "no one's good enough for you" is a completely bizarre thing to say to a woman who stuck it out with the same guy for more than 20 years, and didn't stop by choice.

 

Tha's assuming, of course, that Helen's memory of the convo was accurate (always a caveat with this show).

[HumblePi]

Uh... when exactly did that happen?  Unless I missed a big chunk of the show, Noah misread that situation.  Her clothes were strewn all over and there was a bottle of wine because she was drunk, by herself.  We saw it.

When Noah looks around the brownstone after picking up the kids, there's significant evidence to suggest that, while in Helen's version, she and Max broke up before she and Max had their 'nooner', in reality they had sex first, then had their big fight. Noah sees the bouquet of wilted red roses (in Helen's version they were Lilies) He sees her underwear and clothes all over the floor and bed and he sees a bottle of wine and two wine glasses on the mantel in the bedroom. Of the two options, I'm more inclined to believe Noah's version especially since now Noah knows that Helen hasn't exactly been celibate.

[Neurochick]

Wow, well we definitely have different views about Helen. Helen was happy in her rmarriage, Helen trusted Noah, and thought he was happy too. Did she miss some signs that maybe he wasn't? Could be. We only have Noah's POV for that and even in his POV he and Helen were a team.

 

 

I think my issue with Helen is this; most of my divorced women friends wound up nearly penniless because the husband was the one making the money; a lot of them had to take low paying jobs to make ends meet.  Helen doesn't have to worry about that.  Her store seems to be more of a vanity project.  She's not worrying about making ends meet.  She could be in a hell of a worse situation, broke, working two jobs and taking care of her children.  I just see her as a spoiled privileged woman whose life didn't work out for her the way she expected it to.  

 

The interesting thing about this episode is that both of them thought the judge screwed them over.

Edited October 29, 2015 by Neurochick

[HumblePi]

The whole series is basically about a bunch people that are all connected in some way, that are unfulfilled not only in their marriage but with their lives in general. Helen has money and doesn't have happiness. She busies herself by passing time in her snobbish store that sells chachkie's but nothing of substance or meaning, sort of like her marriage. The business hasn't seen a profit in over 2 years so Helen is investing time in a money-losing situation. There is a symbolism between her store and her marriage.  All of the married characters have been unfaithful to their partner. Noah, Alison, Cole, Max, even Margaret Butler and Bruce Butler. They're all either having affairs or have had affairs and they try justifying it to themselves by blaming others for their own failures or shortcomings. I wouldn't be surprised if it was revealed that Cherry Lockhart had an affair with Bruce Butler. LOL!

 

It's very difficult for any of them to face the fact that they're not great partners, but when is it ever easy for a person to admit to themselves that they neglected to work on making their once-good relationship good again or admit to being selfish and taking more from their partner than they gave? The attraction to have an affair is instinctively based on sexual desire.  An intuitive feeling comes before an intellectual reasoning or knowledge of the repercussions of an affair.

Edited October 29, 2015 by HumblePi

[briochetwist]

When Noah looks around the brownstone after picking up the kids, there's significant evidence to suggest that, while in Helen's version, she and Max broke up before she and Max had their 'nooner', in reality they had sex first, then had their big fight. Noah sees the bouquet of wilted red roses (in Helen's version they were Lilies) He sees her underwear and clothes all over the floor and bed and he sees a bottle of wine and two wine glasses on the mantel in the bedroom. Of the two options, I'm more inclined to believe Noah's version especially since now Noah knows that Helen hasn't exactly been celibate.

Sorry, but are we ever going to have to agree to disagree on this one.  After seeing Helen's reaction after the first time she had sex with Max, it was pretty obvious that she knew she'd made a massive drunken mistake and that it was never going to happen again.  He just kept showing up uninvited and inserted himself into her life.  She had zero desire to go to Belize or anywhere else with him.  

 

Also, I think the show is about points of view, not deliberately leaving massive chunks of plot out.  If Helen had indeed had sex with Max, it wouldn't have been left ouf of her point of view, it just would have been framed differently.

[Irlandesa]

When Noah looks around the brownstone after picking up the kids, there's significant evidence to suggest that, while in Helen's version, she and Max broke up before she and Max had their 'nooner', in reality they had sex first, then had their big fight. Noah sees the bouquet of wilted red roses (in Helen's version they were Lilies) He sees her underwear and clothes all over the floor and bed and he sees a bottle of wine and two wine glasses on the mantel in the bedroom. Of the two options, I'm more inclined to believe Noah's version especially since now Noah knows that Helen hasn't exactly been celibate.

I'm still more inclined to believe Helen's version because it's easier for me to believe that Noah changed a few details in his head, drawing him to the conclusion that she had sex at the house, than Helen forgetting she slept with Max before breaking up with him.  Sex is a pretty big "oops, I forgot."    That's not to say that some of the details in Noah's version were wrong.  For instance, I can believe Max brought roses over lillies.  Maybe Noah did find a bra or underthing on the staircase.  In his mind he jumped to the sex conclusion which later filled in the two wine glasses instead of one. 

[cardigirl]

Here's an interesting opinon:

People cheat because they feel entitled to cheat. That’s it. That’s my simple answer to the painful question of WHY? I don’t believe people cheat because they’re broken, or their FOO issues, or because of the staggering powers of Facebook crushes. I don’t believe people cheat because of mid-life crises, which descend on former church deacons like a toxic cloud of musk cologne. I don’t believe people cheat because of peri-menopause. I don’t believe people cheat because that hussy flung herself at him and wore down his defenses after his mother died. I don’t believe people cheat because monogamy is not an evolutionary imperative. I believe people cheat because they give themselves permission to cheat — and that’s a matter of character.

 

I think I agree with her.  Cheating is a choice. Not a inevitable event. 

[Neurochick]

When Noah looks around the brownstone after picking up the kids, there's significant evidence to suggest that, while in Helen's version, she and Max broke up before she and Max had their 'nooner', in reality they had sex first, then had their big fight. Noah sees the bouquet of wilted red roses (in Helen's version they were Lilies) He sees her underwear and clothes all over the floor and bed and he sees a bottle of wine and two wine glasses on the mantel in the bedroom. Of the two options, I'm more inclined to believe Noah's version especially since now Noah knows that Helen hasn't exactly been celibate.

 

 

I didn't think that Helen actually had sex with Max.  I think we are seeing it from Noah's point of view.  We saw that Helen was taking off her clothes, listening to Lucinda Williams, her clothes were going all over the place.  Noah looked around and in his mind he saw evidence that Helen had sex with someone.  Also remember that we saw Helen's version first.  

 

People cheat because they feel entitled to cheat. That’s it. That’s my simple answer to the painful question of WHY? I don’t believe people cheat because they’re broken, or their FOO issues, or because of the staggering powers of Facebook crushes. I don’t believe people cheat because of mid-life crises, which descend on former church deacons like a toxic cloud of musk cologne. I don’t believe people cheat because of peri-menopause. I don’t believe people cheat because that hussy flung herself at him and wore down his defenses after his mother died. I don’t believe people cheat because monogamy is not an evolutionary imperative. I believe people cheat because they give themselves permission to cheat — and that’s a matter of character.

 

This comment really feels judgmental, especially the last sentence.  

Edited October 29, 2015 by Neurochick

[cardigirl]

This comment really feels judgmental, especially the last sentence.

 

Oh it definitely is. But if you think about it,most "cheaters" try to justify why they did what they did, rather than admit that they just wanted to.  At least in my experience. There is always some excuse for the behavior, that's supposed to let them off the hook.  Really, it's just a decision they made. 

Edited October 29, 2015 by cardigirl

[briochetwist]

I suppose if you can divorce the first time, you can certainly do it the second time a lot easier but that's me presuming. The lawyer should give a discount, no?

Not true at all.  Divorce is expensive, and it's incredibly expensive if kids are involved.  Start paying divorce lawyers, child support, alimony, child care and watch your bank account dwindle.  And if there are kids in the second marriage you may have to pay all that out again to another ex.  Divorce is not easy, emotionally or financially.