Spoiler Discussion Thread

[AyChihuahua]

Question. Why is everyone so angry at Laurel? Everyone wanted Sara back and now she's coming back. Would all the anger be directed at any other character other than Laurel? I'm not even a Laurel fan, in fact I've always disliked her, and I really don't get the Laurel hate over this Sara issue. Yeah, she is coming off reckless to get her sister back. But so what? Didn't most people want Sara back and resented Laurel for her being killed off so she could be Black Canary?

Just because I like the end doesn't mean I have to like the means.  It's really not complicated.  They're writing Sara's return in a way that makes Laurel look like a selfish crazy person, therefore I find her to be behaving like a selfish crazy person.

 

Imagine your next door neighbors fight all the time and wake you up in the middle of the night.  Then one day a serial killer murders them.  You're happy not to be woken up in the middle of the night anymore.  Does that mean you appreciate the serial killer's actions?  

Edited October 20, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[Happy Harpy]

Question. Why is everyone so angry at Laurel? Everyone wanted Sara back and now she's coming back. Would all the anger be directed at any other character other than Laurel? I'm not even a Laurel fan, in fact I've always disliked her, and I really don't get the Laurel hate over this Sara issue. Yeah, she is coming off reckless to get her sister back. But so what? Didn't most people want Sara back and resented Laurel for her being killed off so she could be Black Canary?

First, as others noted above, the execution doesn't imo match the intentions, the storyline isn't handled well (leaving to interpretation that she could use unstable Thea, for example) and Laurel fails to come off as selfless for me, on the opposite...and yet for once in a blue moon, I actually understand her motivation on the paper, i.e bringing back her sister.

 

There's also the meta.

I think that the writers indeed calculated that using Laurel to bring Sara back would erase the negative feeling some viewers expressed about the latter's death, but the maneuver was obvious. So it comes off as using Sara in order to give a boost to Laurel's image, which imo backlashes as a reminder of Sara being killed for Laurel to take her place, for those like me who think it was the case.

Finally people wanted Sara back, but here at least many said they want her back as the BC on Arrow, in place of Laurel, and it isn't going to happen. On the opposite, I for one feel and fear that Sara will be used once more in order to confirm and prop Laurel in the role of the BC.

Edited October 20, 2015 by Happy Harpy

[bethy]

In the promo, it looks like Thea and Laurel are the ones lowering her into the pit.

 

I remember in one of the earlier promos that there was speculation about a couple of people standing in the background around the LP who looked to be Laurel and Thea. If it looks like they're lowering her into the pit, then I'll force myself to stop this rabbit trail of thought into there being a way this could work that wouldn't make me want to strangle Laurel. Ah well. I guess we'll know for sure tomorrow.

[Sakura12]

I'm beyond thrilled to have Sara back. I hate that they are making Laurel give her even more pain and trauma to have to get over. And as other have said, it's a calculated move to make Laurel look better after they killed Sara off for her. Only it's backfiring because while they are saying it's for love, it doesn't come across that way. Mostly because we've never seen the sisters being particularly close to one another. I don't doubt they loved each other, they are family. I just never saw the kind of closeness that would make Laurel ignore everyone who has seen the effects of the LP just to get her sister back. 

 

If Oliver was one the doing it, I would've been even more pissed at him. He knew Sara better than anyone and knows she wouldn't want that. That's why they should have let one the villains be the one bringing her back. Malcolm or Darhk because they wouldn't care about Sara. Of course the better choice would've been their new time traveling character that knew that Sara was needed alive to save the future. 

Edited October 20, 2015 by Sakura12

[statsgirl]

For me, it's because I'm afraid that instead of exploring this in terms of Laurel being foolish and jumping into situations where she gets other people hurt, they're going to make it like she's a hero for bringing Sara back.

 

High fives calliope1975 over the #carlycorinthos reference.

 

With respect to the Sara speculation, from TVLine:

I can cross my fingers for a Ray/Sara hookup on Legends of Tomorrow? I think Caity Lotz and Brandon Routh have a good chemistry already! –Jenny
EP Phil Klemmer all but confirmed a Ray/Sara pairing during the midseason series’ New York Comic Con panel, when he said in addressing a fan Q on that topic, “Any time you’re in in close, life-or-death quarters [about a time-traveling vessel], weird things happens with people.”

  I'd like to think it's just a tease but with TV Line reporting it, it may well be happening.  It seems phenomenally stupid to me.

 

Also, in terms of Arrow, he's reporting that they are casting "a hulking, brawny a character who is poised to “pick up his father’s mantle and become a powerful villain,” as well as an African-American or biracial male who “decides to put on the uniform of a missing hero who once stood for justice and hope"  who people are speculating is Connor Hawke.  I think MG has put paid to that when he pointed out that the actress playing Babymama is Caucasian but who knows.

[jenrising]

Ugh, hasn't Sara been through enough hell?

[Happy Harpy]

If Oliver was one the doing it, I would've been even more pissed at him. He knew Sara better than anyone and knows she wouldn't want that.

That's the one positive I take out of this storyline. In S3, Oliver was imo an afterthought on his own show, and his character victim of plot-driven idiocy.  Oliver not being an "accomplice" (I use the term loosely) of Sara's LPing, gives me good hope that he will be treated better this season. And a main character being respected and more carefully written usually makes for a better show in general.

Edited October 20, 2015 by Happy Harpy

[Starfish35]

I'd like to think it's just a tease but with TV Line reporting it, it may well be happening. It seems phenomenally stupid to me.

Eh, TVLine (Ausiello I think in that case) was the one who speculated back in S2 that Ivo was Felicity's father, and a lot of the fandom picked that up and ran with it as fact. So I'm not going to worry about this until it happens. I took it as the interviewer's interpretation, not necessarily confirmation.

As far as Laurel and Thea being the ones to put Sara in the pit, there is a shot somewhere - I don't know if it was a teaser or a promo pic - with Malcolm and Nyssa facing off in the foreground, and in the background you can see Laurel and Thea handling the ropes to lower Sara into the pit.

[Velocity23]

Arrow's Echo Kellum Previews Curtis' Transformation Into Mr. Terrific

http://www.tvguide.com/news/arrow-season-4-echo-kellum-curtis-holt-mr-terrific/

[Angel12d]

Hmm. In that EK interview he says Double Down tracks down Felicity specifically and Curtis just happens to be with her. How did he know to track Felicity? That dialogue last week was obviously intentional.

 

Also, tragedy helps motivate Curtis into Mr Terrific. Wow. Much original. Such surprise. 

Edited October 21, 2015 by Angel12d

[Morrigan2575]

Also, in terms of Arrow, he's reporting that they are casting "a hulking, brawny a character who is poised to “pick up his father’s mantle and become a powerful villain,” as well as an African-American or biracial male who “decides to put on the uniform of a missing hero who once stood for justice and hope" who people are speculating is Connor Hawke. I think MG has put paid to that when he pointed out that the actress playing Babymama is Caucasian but who knows.

Those characters are for Legends not Arrow.

Bonus scoop: Legends Episode 6 is casting a hulking, brawny a character who is poised to “pick up his father’s mantle and become a powerful villain,” as well as an African-American or biracial male who “decides to put on the uniform of a missing hero who once stood for justice and hope.”

[MuuMuuChainsmoker]

We are on page 666 of this thread.  It's the Devil's topic!  

[statsgirl]

I know it's for Legends but since they time travel, they could come across a grown-up Connor trying to recreate his father's mission if Oliver has died.

 

But as I said, I don't think it's going to be Connor, although OUaT has messed up my sense of race so much I don't know what's up or down any more..

[Velocity23]

Dialogue tease:

[MuuMuuChainsmoker]

I recommend liberal use of the "block user" button. I almost had to give up browsing tumblr and Twitter on my phone (because filters don't work as well on mobile, for some reason) until I found all the block options.

Listen to your friend, lemotomato.  He/she is a cool guy. 

[Starfish35]

Dialogue tease: Thea to Malcolm.

Edited October 21, 2015 by Starfish35

[statsgirl]

 

Curtis has his first major run-in with a villain this week. What can you reveal about Curtis and Felicity's encounter with Double Down?

Kellum: This meta-human tracks down Felicity, and Curtis is with her, and they kind of go through a sequence where Felicity's badass-ness has to come into the forefront. She has to shut down that situation and save the day. So I think it's a really cool moment because you get to see Felicity really be the hero that she is.

Even if I didn't like him before, I certainly would now.

[Morrigan2575]

I know it's for Legends but since they time travel, they could come across a grown-up Connor trying to recreate his father's mission if Oliver has died.

But as I said, I don't think it's going to be Connor, although OUaT has messed up my sense of race so much I don't know what's up or down any more..

Sorry, I guess I misunderstood your post. I thought you were saying they were casting those characters for Arrow Edited October 21, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[Velocity23]

‘Arrow’: It’ll be a while before Curtis Holt becomes Mr. Terrific

http://zap2it.com/2015/10/arrow-season-4-curtis-holt-echo-kellum-mr-terrific-super-powers/

[Starfish35]

Yeah but that's assuming Connor even exists in this 'verse. All the information we have right now points to the child in Central City not being Connor.

[Primal Slayer]

I am really interested to see how the writers are going to make this into a "positive" thing for Laurel in the long run. I honestly can't see any scenarios and it feels like it will be real awkward from here on out.

[catrox14]

 

I am really interested to see how the writers are going to make this into a "positive" thing for Laurel in the long run. I honestly can't see any scenarios and it feels like it will be real awkward from here on out.

 

The moment Sara saves a life either here or on LoT, Laurel will be proven right. It can easily be spun that if Sara was still dead X life is not saved.

[Primal Slayer]

While I wouldn't be surprised if they did that, it would just be weak writing. 

 

And I am wondering what questionable thing Malcolm does to Thea. Does he try to kill her? brainwash her all over again? 

[SmallScreenDiva]

‘Arrow’: It’ll be a while before Curtis Holt becomes Mr. Terrific

http://zap2it.com/2015/10/arrow-season-4-curtis-holt-echo-kellum-mr-terrific-super-powers/

 

Oh, goody, another tragedy propelling a hero's journey *rme*

[Primal Slayer]

I still wonder why they didn't make Curtis into a legacy hero instead of just changing his first name.

[Sunshine]

Dialogue tease: Nyssa to Malcolm or Diggle to Oliver :-(

 

Do Oliver and Quentin have scenes?  It could easily be Quentin to Oliver if they do. Or maybe Quentin to Darhk?

Edited October 21, 2015 by Sunshine

[Primal Slayer]

Dialogue tease: Nyssa to Malcolm or Diggle to Oliver :-(

Or Thea to Malcolm.

[Morrigan2575]

Dialogue tease: Nyssa to Malcolm or Diggle to Oliver :-(

Do Oliver and Quentin have scenes? It could easily be Quentin to Oliver if they do. Or maybe Quentin to Darhk?

I figured it was Thea to Malcom. I can practically hear Willa saying the words right now

[Angel12d]

Questionable thing Malcolm does to Thea? Probably riles her up just to watch her aggressive fighting. Or maybe even gives her an offer to join the LoA. He's so proud of the weirdest things.

[AyChihuahua]

Questionable thing Malcolm does to Thea? Probably riles her up just to watch her aggressive fighting. Or maybe even gives her an offer to join the LoA. He's so proud of the weirdest things.

I think he wants her to stay Pit-crazy.  I think he probably loves her new bloodlust.

[Primal Slayer]

Questionable thing Malcolm does to Thea? Probably riles her up just to watch her aggressive fighting. Or maybe even gives her an offer to join the LoA. He's so proud of the weirdest things.

Has to be worse then that. According to Barrowman "what he does with her is completely unethical and has no morality attached to it."

[apinknightmare]

Didn't JB say in that interview that the way Thea is acting concerns Malcolm?

[Primal Slayer]

This part of JBs interview was very interesting

a piece of everybody’s soul who has been in there prior goes into that person.

 

So the pit basically takes pieces of people depending on severity? And I am guessing that Sara's body will basically make this pit obsolete afterwards since it has nothing to take from her and can only give.

[AyChihuahua]

Didn't JB say in that interview that the way Thea is acting concerns Malcolm?

He said something like he has a very odd, unethical reaction to her issues, and also said he's all about protecting his family, and Thea is more capable of protecting herself when she's pretty much willing to rip out potential attackers' throats with her teeth.

...

"And he knows something is going on with Thea, that she’s got this bloodlust in her, this violent streak, so he turns to her and says, “I’m concerned about this.” But what he does with her is completely unethical and has no morality attached to it."

...

"Without giving too much away, I think you’re going to see that Malcolm’s love and concern for Thea has grown, and it’s almost like he’s trying to prove it to her and make her realize that what he is doing is not only for the benefit of his family but for her, because he is adamant about protecting her. It’s an unconditional, parental love. Malcolm just goes about it in a unique way!"

Edited October 21, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[Angel12d]

Has to be worse then that. According to Barrowman "what he does with her is completely unethical and has no morality attached to it."

 

As far as I'm concerned, he's already done the worst thing possible when he mind-raped his own child into killing Sara. I can't think of anything worse.

[apinknightmare]

He said something like he has a very odd, unethical reaction to her issues, and also said he's all about protecting his family, and Thea is pretty capable of protecting herself when she's pretty much willing to rip out potential attackers' throats with her teeth.

Yeah, he said that too, but I'm pretty sure he also said that he's concerned about it. Which, if true, implies that he does said weird thing to fix her, not to keep her the way she is.

[AyChihuahua]

Yeah, he said that too, but I'm pretty sure he also said that he's concerned about it. Which, if true, implies that he does said weird thing to fix her, not to keep her the way she is.

I don't know, but this is the same character who made a big deal about how he got Thea to kill Sara to protect THEM from the LOA.  Also, no offense to JB, but IMO he's entirely full of shit when it comes to this character.

 

Plus, it would be entirely within MM's character to love Thea being happy to rip out throats.

[apinknightmare]

Right, I'm not saying it wouldn't be in character, I just think that JB's interview indicated that he doesn't like it. I guess we'll see tomorrow.

[kismet]

I swear to god, the waters "change a person.  In the soul," makes me want to punch someone.  

 

This show is so dumb, but you guys are so funny, you continue to save my Arrow-watching self.  In the soul.

But do you know it your bones... :)

[kismet]

If Oliver was one the doing it, I would've been even more pissed at him. He knew Sara better than anyone and knows she wouldn't want that. That's why they should have let one the villains be the one bringing her back. Malcolm or Darhk because they wouldn't care about Sara. Of course the better choice would've been their new time traveling character that knew that Sara was needed alive to save the future. 

This is why I will be pissed if a twist is that MM puts SL in the pit after LL reconsiders her stance (which was something that was suggested earlier.

 

MM, DD, RH or any non-TA member would have been a better way to bring SL back from the dead. There are so many other ways. But anybody who loved & cared for SL should not be recklessly bringing people back from the dead, dead, dead. And if the writers did want LL to be the one to bring SL back for reasons, the least they could have done is make her truly evaluate the situation & not just make her a crazy grief stricken woman digging up dead people in designer jeans.

[Primal Slayer]

This is why I will be pissed if a twist is that MM puts SL in the pit after LL reconsiders her stance (which was something that was suggested earlier.

 

Honestly that would be the best thing to do imo. But we have seen Laurel lowering Sara's body into the pit.

[kismet]

Has to be worse then that. According to Barrowman "what he does with her is completely unethical and has no morality attached to it."

That's like the definition of just about everything MM does.

[BkWurm1]

Ugh, Malcolm. 

 

Not saying she is, just speculating here, but if Nyssa dies I can't see how Laurel reaches a more positive place with both Sara and Oliver when she's responsible for Nyssa's death. Nu-uh. Nope. 

 

 

But it will prove how strong and resilient she is, I mean, what suffering she has to go through when HER friend dies and LEAVES her.

 

 

 

 

Hmm. In that EK interview he says Double Down tracks down Felicity specifically and Curtis just happens to be with her. How did he know to track Felicity? That dialogue last week was obviously intentional.

 

Also, tragedy helps motivate Curtis into Mr Terrific. Wow. Much original. Such surprise. 

If they follow the comics then

Curtis's husband is not long for this world.

 

I really like the actor and Curtis so far but at the same time, I really hate that they introduced another computer wizard at the same time that they are having their countdown to who's in the grave.  Messes with my head for brief interludes and then I remind myself it that in every case when there has been a death watch, it is ALWAYS the one we most suspect at first.  Which I still have problems with since I wanted Quentin to have a happy ending.  Poor bastard. 

[Chaser]

Didn't they say Mr. Terrific wasn't happening this season?

Messes with my head too. When he said tragedy, I didn't think about his husband. I thought about losing Felicity.

[Primal Slayer]

Echo does have a show in development which may be a reason why they are holding off on his transition to Mr.Terrific.

[BkWurm1]

Didn't they say Mr. Terrific wasn't happening this season?

Messes with my head too. When he said tragedy, I didn't think about his husband. I thought about losing Felicity.

I'd prefer if he transitioned quickly into Mr. Terrific and get him out and keep him out in the field. 

[statsgirl]

I've read a lot of positive comments on how they gently dropped in that he's gay and has a husband. If they're going to break up Sara and Nyssa, maybe they'll let Curtis keep his husband for a while.

 

From the zap2it article:

 

“They definitely talked about at Comic-Con bringing a lighter tone to the show. They are not making it ‘Teletubbies,’ but bringing some lightness to it,” he says. “It’s staying true to its dark roots and whatnot but I definitely think that Curtis helps bring some levity to some scenes. They let me have some fun. They writ some cool funny dialogue for this character.”

His primary job will be being there for Felicity, who has her hands full running Palmer Technologies and moonlighting as ground control for Team Arrow.

“He’ll help her through some dark times this season, just helping her through some crisis that she’s dealing with. He’ll prove to be a really great friend to her and she’ll do the same for him. They have the same love for science and technology but he’ll be there to be a shoulder for her through the turmoil,” Kellum says

That sounds like they're going to try to keep  him light at least for the foreseeable future.

[writersblock51]

It's almost too predictable that Mr. Terrific's husband is a goner - though he's not the one who is in the grave, I'm sure. 

 

I hope the superhero trajectory for Mr. Terrific won't come at the expense of Diggle and Felicity's stories that have been promised for some time now.  I think Diggle's arc is pretty much a given, thank goodness.  But the talk about Felicity's father has gone from DR's comments about him being a brainiac (imagine if that was actually who it was!) to a 'we're still thinking about it.'  Which is it?  They either know who it is or they don't and aren't in a hurry to find out.

[statsgirl]

Right now, it seems like Diggle will have his own HIVE story and Felicity will have her own PT/Curtis story.  I wonder if that's why they're giving Felicity a new BFF, because Diggle is going to be off on his own.

 

I've always enjoyed the Diggle/Felicity friendship.  I'm not sure how I feel about the idea of losing it so they both can have separated storylines of their own.

[bijoux]

Hmm. In that EK interview he says Double Down tracks down Felicity specifically and Curtis just happens to be with her. How did he know to track Felicity? That dialogue last week was obviously intentional.

 

Also, tragedy helps motivate Curtis into Mr Terrific. Wow. Much original. Such surprise.

I keep forgetting to mention this in the episode thread, but didn't Curtis say something like, "Of course, I'll have to drive," when he was talking about being able to take a road trip with his husband once fired. Of course, I could have misheard, as this show makes me believe I'm going deaf but I got the impression that his husband could be disabled. Maybe it's the polar opposite of Ivo. He became a villain, whereas Curtis becomes a hero in order to help his loved one and others.