Spoiler Discussion Thread

[Sunshine]

SA has been talking about the team visiting Central City and learning about something there that came out first in s2.  I think that's Oliver's child, so I think that we won't meet the child, or maybe even hear about him till ep 8.  In spite of ARGUS' power, I still have my doubts that Amanda Waller is going to tell Oliver about the kid.  Threaten Tommy's life unless Oliver does what she wants, yes, that's probable.

SA said in an interview I watched today (DigitalSpy maybe?) that there will be a less publicized crossover than Felicity's (Ep 4-B/F resolution & Arrow lessons) and the 2 hour ones in 8 on both shows. It is the one he pitched and we'll know it when we see it. He pitched the one about Oliver's child. I wonder if episode 8 relates to Ray Palmer/The Atom in some way. What I read briefly was that The Team heads to Central City in Flash only to later realize whatever(Atom sighting thought to be caused by the particle accelerator explosion?) originated in Starling City. Based on the billboard in one of the Flash promos Palmer Industries seems to be headquartered in Central City. RP is trying to acquire QC for its Applied Sciences division.

I think Oliver will go back to thinking he can only be either Oliver or Arrow. Diggle will show him he canhave both to some degree over the course of the season.

Felicity on the other hand is going to want to have it all. If she can't perhaps she thinks she needs to get out of the Team Arrow business. She's not about just accepting things. This will also cause Oliver to make choices (perhaps regarding QC) that maybe he didn't want to before because he doesn't want to lose Felicity.

[writersblock51]

I'm genuinely thrilled but also almost overhwelmed with the amount of information that came out this weekend and today. 

 

First and foremost, I'm cautiously optimistic that the show will follow up on what had been promised about Season 3 - that it would be more 'intimate.' I remember there being discussion about what that could mean, what many people hoped it would mean and what some were afraid it meant.  I was in the camp that hoped & thought it meant for less crammed-in action points and more character development.  The flow would be smoother and feel less rushed.

Well, I doubt the show will EVER feel 'less rushed' but it does sound like there are very concerted efforts to address the characters' individual and relationship crossroads.  Maybe that's what comes with a 3rd season after getting so many accolades from the S2 finale?  *fingers crossed*

 

The list of This or That for the characters is fascinating to me.  I agree with all but one (shocker) of the questions poised.  None are much of a suprise, either, but nearly all are interesting and bode well for an engrossing season.

 

Oliver's journey is, naturally, the focus of the show and most all others should somehow  connect to him.  That is where I wonder what the show is thinking in terms of Sara and Laurel - they seem more and more detached from the show's hero that I wonder why they continue to be on the show.  I happen to love Sara (though less of her in S2 Pt 2 would have been my preference) but her journey is most definitely all about HER, with nothing to do with Oliver.  Their paths don't connect again until she showed up in Starling City last fall. 

 

So unless her LoA stuff connects back to Oliver at some point, I don't see the need to spend one or 2 (!!!!) episodes on her.

 

On the flip side, I'd rather watch her story than anything to do with Laurel (past or present).  And, I hope, that the continued interest that the EPs have in Sara mean that she's staying on as the only Black Canary of the show.

 

Laurel's 'Am I Laurel or am I my sister?' is BIZARRE.  Why on earth is that even a question for her?  What have we seen that would justify her even thinking that?  Again, the show can come up solid, interesting stories that seem plausible for everyone else but her.  I just don't get it.

 

"Oliver's Year of Celibacy" - Amen.

 

I'm glad to learn that there's much more going on with Diggle - and his interactions with the Team - than just impending parenthood.  I'm looking forward to all of it and how DR plays it.

 

MG's interview flat out stunned me.  And I took it to mean that Felicity does NOT fall out of love with Oliver but that it is a bumpy road as they come to terms with each other.  I do agree that any pulling away will be mostly from Oliver in his famous misguided logic of protecting those he loves.  His intentions are certainly noble but his reasoning is flawed. 

 

I'm so relieved that SOMEONE is going to wonder about Felicity's career path in QC last year.  isabel's assumptions were to be expected, so I'm very glad that a person with a brain will be asking questions about what really happened there.

 

Thea's story continues to pull me in, which I'm also glad about.  Willa Holland impressed the hell out of me in the panels & interviews that I saw - she's another young woman who carries herself with professionalism while also clearly having a great time with what's happening now.  And she and JB are just wonderful.  So I think their arc is going to be fascinating to watch.  And yay that she and Roy are still in touch!  That seriously made me smile just reading it.  They had the most 'normal' relationship on the show last season; when she left, it was heartbreaking to watch.  His reaction (CH did his best, I'm sure) pulled me in, too.

 

I know it hasn't been mentioned but Thea and Roy staying in touch, and Roy going off on his own, definitely perks me up a bit - Teen Arrow or Teen Titans, please? 

 

And has anyone heard about Bex returning in any capacity as Sin?

 

I am hopeful about the casting for Ted Grant and Ra's - I have more faith in the casting department these days.  I only dislike 2 of the casting choices so far: Laurel and Waller.  Everyone else has been either fine or fantastic, in my opinion.

 

That being said, Oded Fehr for Ra's, definitely!

[Sunshine]

Bex was tweeting about being back in Season 3 at the end of 2.

[writersblock51]

thanks, @Sunshine, I haven't heard or seen anything about her so far, so I was very curious.  That's good news!

[Sakura12]

If Ra's is the big bad this season then Sara's story and Oliver's story are going to connect. 

 

Since the announced they don't know what episode we're going to see Sara and Nyssa's story, I don't think ep 2 is all about Sara. Also because Tommy is appearing in that ep when Oliver is Hong Kong, I don't think they'll be showing us Oliver's flashback and Sara's separate flashbacks in the same episode. 

[KirkB]

See, the only way I can wrap my head around "Am I Laurel or am I my sister?", the only way it makes even the slightest lick of sense, is if she means it literally. Like at some point this season she has reason to believe her and Sara's names have somehow been switched. Which would be a great way to end the BC argument once and for all, but that obviously isn't what is meant, thought I have no idea what IS.

[KenyaJ]

That said I agree with @Tangerine because I also feel cheated out of Oliver's manpaining over his feelings for Felicity. I maintain I think the ILY scene was like a life check for Oliver because he ignored his feelings for her for a long time.

 

I feel like we're going to see him manpaining all season, though, which I'm all for. I think he'll try to tamp down his feeling about Ray for Felicity's sake, because he loves her enough to want her to be happy and he thinks she can't be with him. But it will kill him inside -- and hopefully lead him to many, many training sessions with Sally, in order to have a physical outlet for his manpain.

 

I was shocked to see MG say Oliver and Felicity are in love -- not because I don't believe it, but just because I never thought I'd see one of the EPs say it that forthrightly, LOL. And I'm so excited he did. I think they've been slowly falling in love since they met, without the overdone "epiphany" that's so common on television shows. I do, however, believe that the conversation on the beach was the first time Oliver was forced to acknowledge it.

 

Anyway, I desperately wish it was October now. I'm so ready to see all of this play out.

[apinknightmare]

See, the only way I can wrap my head around "Am I Laurel or am I my sister?", the only way it makes even the slightest lick of sense, is if she means it literally. Like at some point this season she has reason to believe her and Sara's names have somehow been switched. Which would be a great way to end the BC argument once and for all, but that obviously isn't what is meant, thought I have no idea what IS.

 

Amnesia?

 

(I'm just kidding btw)

Edited July 29, 2014 by apinknightmare

[writersblock51]

If folks on this board can't come up with a plausible reason for Laurel's "question" then I don't have any faith the writers will do well with it.  I've seen better and creative and engrossing story ideas for Laurel here than anything on the actual show.

[catrox14]

I going back to my original theory that Laurel is trying to steal Sara's life. 

[JayKay]

If folks on this board can't come up with a plausible reason for Laurel's "question" then I don't have any faith the writers will do well with it.  I've seen better and creative and engrossing story ideas for Laurel here than anything on the actual show.

You just had to say it, didn't you?

 

• There will be a musical and Laurel's singing "Are We Human or Are We Dancer" by the Killers with some of the lyrics pointedly altered.
• Bodyswap episode.
• The jacket is an extraterrestrial parasite first encountered off the coast of the island and it changed Sara's appearance from the pilot into a person who looks like Caity Lotz. Laurel's next if she's not careful.
• It's an anagram.
• Trick question; Laurel is actually her mother.
• Detox fever dream.
• She's going deep undercover this season to investigate what it's like to be a badass and lives that life for too long, man.
• "Am I Laurel or am I my sister?" she asks the debt collectors who keep calling to inform her that the last ten months of her school loan payments are past due.

[SilverLake0315]

I hope Ra's is an older actor who - Lazarus Pits not withstanding - looks like he could be the father of Nyssa.  As much as I adore Paul Blackthorne and John Barrowman in their roles on the show, they both are too young to be fathers to their character's children.  Susanna Thompson, Jamey Sheridan and (I can't remember his name) the actor who played Yao Fei all were more believable in that aspect.

 

For what it's worth - Byron Mann (Yao Fei), Paul Blackthorne and John Barrowman are all about the same age - 46, 45 and 47...respectively

[writersblock51]

@JayKay, I needed that - you did not disappoint!  Well done! hahahahahahaha

 

@SilverLake0315, I didn't know that about Byron Mann... Huh.  What is it about the show hiring men too young for their TV parts?  At least the makeup department takes care of it most of the time.

[TanyaKay]

For what it's worth - Byron Mann (Yao Fei), Paul Blackthorne and John Barrowman are all about the same age - 46, 45 and 47...respectively

 

I remember checking out Blackthorne's age when I first started watching the show because he looked awfully young to me to be dad to a lawyer. Both actresses playing his daughters are born in 1986 ... that makes him a dad at 17. Somehow I cannot reconcile that someone like Blackthorne or his character Lance would actually father a child before he graduate from high school.

Malcolm and Tommy were even more ridiculous because Colin Donnell and Barrowman are like 14 years apart, but for some strange reason I can see Barrowman as someone's teenage dad. Let's be honest, he is still a teenager at heart.

[Starfish35]

The only way I can see that question for Laurel making sense is if she were taking up her sister's role (Black Canary) for a major part of the season, and maybe feeling like she's losing a bit of her own identity in the process.

The only problem with that is that, unless we're missing some sort of major part of the puzzle, that particular scenario doesn't even remotely fit into any kind of timeline of Laurel's arc for this season according to every other piece of information we have (not to mention Sara's arc). AK specifically said she wasn't going to be out there kicking ass right away. And the information about Ted Grant seems to imply that her training is going to extend over the season.

I suspect probably I'm taking it too literally, and what was actually meant (but poorly stated) is that this season is about Laurel's struggle between lawyer and vigilante. We've often talked here about why would Laurel become a vigilante, when she's made a career of the law. What would turn her from working inside the law to working outside of it? In other words, am I Laurel the law-abiding lawyer or my sister the vigilante?

[KirkB]

Sean Connery is only 11 years older than Harrison Ford but played his father in Last Crusade. Just because the actors are too close in reality doesn't mean their characters are supposed to be the same age. Paul is under 50, Quentin may be older, or he and Dinah could have been high school sweethearts, And if Malcolm wasn't banging everything that moved as soon as he was able he's not the man I think he is.

 

@JayKay, I like your idea about the parasitic jacket. Maybe it knew what was coming and needed her Sara to be stronger, so it changed her. Sara, on the other hand, would just be glad to be rid of the damn thing. :)

[Sakura12]

They have 30 year olds playing teenagers all the time, so it could work the opposite way as well. They could be playing older and just look really good for their age. Lance could be 55 instead of 45. As I was discussing with my fellow Asians in the Public Appearances we always look at least 10 years younger than our actual age. So it works for me. Ming Na Wen from Agents of Shield is 50, but she could pass for late 30's. The actors real age hardly matters in television shows or movies. 

Edited July 29, 2014 by Sakura12

[foreverevolving]

 

I remember checking out Blackthorne's age when I first started watching the show because he looked awfully young to me to be dad to a lawyer. Both actresses playing his daughters are born in 1986 ... that makes him a dad at 17. Somehow I cannot reconcile that someone like Blackthorne or his character Lance would actually father a child before he graduate from high school.

Malcolm and Tommy were even more ridiculous because Colin Donnell and Barrowman are like 14 years apart, but for some strange reason I can see Barrowman as someone's teenage dad. Let's be honest, he is still a teenager at heart.

 

 

Personally the age difference doesn't bother me so much. all three actors look a good 5 years older they truly are- especially when they are in character. i mean alot of people look younger/older then their natural age. EBR for example look about 5 years older (especially when she's dressed as Felicity) While Willa looks younger. i'm 28 and i look about 20/21 (on a good day) and 16 on a bad one.

so yea.. the actual age of the actors doesn't faze me so much. i mean it probably would if it was only 5 years. Which is why as much as i would love Oded to play Ra's (if only for some personal Israeli pride of one of our own making it) the fact that he and Katrina Law has only 5 years separating them turns me off from that casting choice.

 

ETA: so apparently the source i was looking at (Wikipedia!) lists Katrina law age as 36 and not 29. on that case count me in for the vote to see Oded playing Ra's. a little of grey hair, some makeup in the right places and he can look ten years older. i mean the guys look slightly older than 43 as it is (or maybe it's just me)

Edited July 29, 2014 by foreverevolving

[DrSpaceman10]

Which is why as much as i would love Oded to play Ra's (if only for some personal Israeli pride of one of our own making it) the fact that he and Katrina Law has only 5 years separating them turns me off from that casting choice.

 

15 years, she was born in 1985 and he was born in 1970.

Edited July 29, 2014 by drspaceman10

[catrox14]

I think the age difference between Fehr and Law is more like 10 to 15 years

[statsgirl]

It's that cursed jacket that did it.  When Sara handed it to Laurel and she put it on, it imbued Laurel with Sara's mind and she spends the rest of the season trying to get her own back.

 

  What is it about the show hiring men too young for their TV parts?  At least the makeup department takes care of it most of the time.

Usually, it's the women to whom that happens.  Jessie Royce Landis was only eight years older than Cary Grant when she played  his mother on North by Northwest.

 

I can buy that Quentin was pretty young when he got married and had Laurel because he's pretty blue collar, not just because he's a policeman but in his attitudes.  Paul Blackthorne said that Quentin's going to be struggling this season being in administration rather than "one of the boys".  (And then I fanwank that Dinah had her kids and finished her degrees afterwards when they were in day care.)

 

Susanna Thompson is 56, Alex Kingston is 51.  They look amazing.

Edited July 29, 2014 by statsgirl

[abhi]

Ra's is the biggest news about Arrow right now. Ra's is bigger than the Green Arrow, by a big big margin among comic fans and in the comic world. So expect the EPs to extract as much juice from his character as possible. And this is why Sara, even when she is detached from Oliver's story, has such an important part this Season. Because she is directly attached (regarding backstory etc) to someone who is bigger and more important this Season than Oliver Queen.

 

And WTF is with Laurel's identity crisis? The questions make sense for all the other characters because they have been set up for this Season.But It doesn't make sense for Laurel. So the EPs clearly want to say that Laurel wants to be a copycat of her sister. Pathetic.

Edited July 29, 2014 by abhi

[TanyaKay]

Sussanna Thompson looks younger than her age is flawlessly beautiful even though she does not use fillers and botox. She is amazing.

[Happy Harpy]

The spoilers changed a lot of my perspective on S3 (All work and no fun makes for a loooot of reading afterwards!). Like many of you, I think, they made me more optimistic.

 

I've liked both Thea and Roy from the start, so I'm very excited about their respective storylines. I'm curious about Roy's past, I'm delighted in advance by the Malcolm/Thea's dynamic.

I'm beyond hyped that Diggle will get both a family and a "mytharc" one with HIVE/Andy. More Diggle, better Diggle yay!

I  now think that Sara is relatively safe for a while; for S3-A at least. Imo, the EPs are at least waiting out to see whether their latest attempt with Laurel works with the audience. If not? The day where Sara fans -and those like me who consider she is the BC- rejoice loudly could very well come.

I'm actually nervous about Felicity's past.

 

The different statements about Oliver/Felicity, especially S.Amell's  now infamous one, are a big step in the good direction imo. For two reasons:

1) Buh-bye sister swapping. I personally hated it, and I think it was nonsensical on a storytelling and character (non-)development standpoint. If they really end it, I will trust the showrunners like I did before S-2B, meaning I will trust them to do what works for the show and what the audience responds to. Come to think of it, it very often overlaps in entertainment, imo.

2) I finally have the feeling that the EPs realize the importance of Team Arrow over other relationships; and are paying attention to the development of Romantic!Oliver/Felicity not -or not only- because of their fanbase, but because they know that before being a couple, Oliver and Felicity are part of what has become imo the core of the show. Team Arrow seemed like an afterthought for them in S2-B and I find it reassuring to hear that the EPs value it.

 

I have two reservations, so far:

-Laurel, of course. I don't hate her because she "comes between Oliver and Felicity", but on her own right. "Business partner"+ smug smile? The combination was enough to reactivate my utter annoyance, with some "No you aren't, Diggle and Felicity are!" and others "You earned nothing!". The statements about her importance during S3 vary, but I hope that she'll be contained to a scene or two, preferrably out of the Arrowcave. I wish that her upteenth new direction will make me go back to my initial indifference, but considering my feelings about the character, I'm not holding my breath.

-Now that they went there with "the date", I can't think of a way to put the brake on Oliver/Felicity that I wouldn't find contrite or will they-won't they cliché; certainly not Oliver stepping back to protect her, not after he sent her neck first to Slade's katana in the season finale. And I wouldn't believe for one second that anything that Oliver did in the past would make Felicity fall out of love with him, not after how accepting she was with Sara, a LoA assassin. Moreover, I might like Brandon Routh's character (after all, I rather liked Barry and I had preventions) but what S.Amell said about Oliver having other love interests undermining what they're doing also applies, for me, to Felicity having love interests. My newfound optimism, though, makes me hope that the writers do find a way to make the evolution of O/F as believable as it was imo so far, and that Ray's romantic interest will be one-sided. 

Edited July 29, 2014 by Happy Harpy

[Alibelle]

Per my previous post, I was not surprised by this. The asker wasn't specifically asking about romantic choices but where did Stephen go? Oliver's romantic choices. I'm very happy he took note of the complaints and took that to the writers/producers. I strongly suspect he advocated for a change (whether it was Olicity or not) and that whatever came out of that discussion is exactly why he seemed very firm on his answers yesterday about Oliver's love life going forward. No, he doesn't know everything that will happen in future seasons, but it sounds like there was some serious discussion and planning going on. Also, LOL that the writers were apparently clueless. They need more women in the writers' room. I know they have a few, but seriously

That was me! And I really wasn't expecting the gold mine that was his answer at all. I mean, I guess I maybe touched upon romance by mentioning Olicity first, but I honestly expected him to talk about signing his company over to Isabel, even though Isabel only entered his life as someone who was interested in taking his company in the first place, making that a super boneheaded move. [Oliver (well, all the Queens, really) and smart finances are not an OTP, apparently.]

[poetgirl925]

That was me! And I really wasn't expecting the gold mine that was his answer at all. I mean, I guess I maybe touched upon romance by mentioning Olicity first, but I honestly expected him to talk about signing his company over to Isabel, even though Isabel only entered his life as someone who was interested in taking his company in the first place, making that a super boneheaded move. [Oliver (well, all the Queens, really) and smart finances are not an OTP, apparently.]

Oh wow, you were the asker at Nerd HQ? Thanks for that! And yes there were many ways he could have interpreted the question. Just in watching some of his recent panels, I realized that he's been dealing with a certain amount of shade on the topic of Oliver's love life. He and Caity were asked about the sister swapping in Denver and I could tell he didn't like that image. It was even brought up again during the Arrow panel when the moderator asked him to pick a woman, followed by suggesting Oliver would be getting it on with Waller next. Then KC joked about all the ass Oliver gets at the IGN interview. Add to that whatever complaints he received via FB or otherwise saw online? (And let's face it, he wouldn't have had to look very hard for criticism on this topic.) He obviously felt strongly enough about it to take the conversation to the EPs and I admire him for that. It's clear he discussed it with the writers a while ago because I just don't think he would have answered as definitively as he did on Saturday and Sunday unless he knew a fairly long term goal/plan. He's media savvy and smart enough to know how that was going to spread through the fandom immediately and cause a commotion. In Saturday's interview you can see in his face he was taking the question seriously and he just became firmer in his answers the more she pushed. He seemed just as eager to really set that straight on Sunday as well. Now after MG's bold statements, I think he had permission to speak as freely as he liked.

Honestly, I've never been big on tweeting TPTB, but maybe we should all question things more - in a polite way, of course. Your question was perfect because it was not an attack. So again, thanks! That was the perfect follow up to his statements on Saturday and clarified why the writers might have made the decision to pick a direction and stick with it (at least for the foreseeable future.).

[Velocity23]

Greg Berlanti interview

 

[wonderwall]

@poetgirl925, I agree with you. I think it's clear that Stephen wanted to get that tidbit out there on purpose. When he says that there's one woman for Oliver and the question asker says 'Thea', that was his out. He could've easily panicked and said yes, or he could've redirected the question into something else, but no, Stephen purposely stated that Felicity was the woman for Oliver (that season). Stephen didn't have to elaborate and say that Laurel/Oliver and Sara/Oliver are over, he didn't have to do that just as much as Oliver didn't have to tell Felicity that he loved her in the season finale, but he did. So it all felt very genuine, on purpose, and something that him and the EPs have planned for (only to be backed up by MGs statement). 

 

(EDIT: Nevermind :p You guys were talking about something different entirely. Damn, I'm tired)

Edited July 29, 2014 by wonderwall

[poetgirl925]

It seems like all the news was dropped pretty deliberately. They've given out plenty to keep people talking and they can still sit on all their important goodies. They dropped an Olicity bomb but they've still got around two months to allow the dust to settle from that. It's like a marketing plan or something. Wonder if the network people are now poking their noses into fandom/forums to see what people are saying? It seems like they probably collect online data since they always tell their people to get online, but I honestly don't know how that works. But I think it was MG who said they told the producers to get on Twitter.

I like Berlanti's interviews. He's a fan of the DC brand and what they're doing with it, but he also approaches things as a writer. It's a nice balance.

[At Leisure]

"I think they're in love with each other" - Marc Guggenheim on Oliver and Felicity

Great news as this is, I would like to actually SEE it happen. S2 Part1 was sprinkled with moments that had the potential of turning into a full blown falling-in-love scenario, but it never actually happened. Much as both Oliver and Felicity were shown to be extremely caring for each other, to admire and respect each other and to be genuinely fond even ...but love?

Ok so Felicity was probably a bit jealous of Isabel and Oliver of Barry but it wasn't exactly the romantic kind of jealousy or if it was, that angle was left in the air and never explored. It seemed more like the kind of jealousy that Michael feels for George in My Best Friend's Wedding and not the sort that Jules feels for Kimmy. A friendly jealousy, if that makes sense. Because at the end of the day, Oliver invited Barry to be Felicity's plus 1 and when Oliver had a real relationship with Sara, Felicity didn't bat a lash either. Her problem with Isabel really was what she said, she wasn't worth it.

I can believe though, that Oliver's fake confession felt so real to him that, for the first time, he realized that he had deeper feelings for Felicity than friendship and affection. But it still can't be love, no matter how close to it. Same thing goes for Felicity. True that she had a crush on him in S1, but that had turned into something more moderate in S2; which though quite like it, wasn't the deepest, truest love. Case in point: her brief (but cute) stint with Barry and her lack of jealousy where Oliver/Sara were concerned.

So I would love to see how their feeling transformed from a deep liking to a deeper emotion called love. And I would prefer that instead of being told at the beginning of S3 that it happened while I was sleeping, the EPs make it happen on the show, throughout the season. I don't want to be robbed of seeing them fall in love cuz whatever S2 Part1 was...S2 Part2 definitely didn't contain any scenes that portrayed two people slowly falling in love...except for the fake out.

About Oliver's reason for not pursuing a relationship with Felicity...I hope it is not the newer version of 'because of the life I live...' cuz that didn't make sense in the first place. If he was so scared of getting people he 'could really care about' into harm's way then he should never have involved her into the Arrow business. Felicity's life was in constant danger anyways by association with him...it hardly mattered if they started dating as well. Saying that 'I'm not ready' or that 'I might unintentionally hurt you emotionally' would have been a more convincing response (not that she was asking for one or that he owed her and answer, they weren't that intimate then). IMO.

So I'm trusting the EPs to come up with a believable reason for them to stop dating. God knows that they aren't ready and perhaps they should both say as much...especially Oliver.

Oh and about 'am I Laurel or am I my sister?' Three words...WTH???

[AnalyzeAndCritique]

I can actually see Oliver and Felicity loving each other. I can see it starting with their first meeting and growing from there. I think both were attracted to each other and grew to appreciate each other. They became partners and friends simultaneously. Sometimes relationships stay in the friend-zone, but I think there was always more between them. The journey is the destination which means we can continue to watch them "fall in love" as season 3 progresses. I think Oliver being in a place where he feels he wants to try with Felicity is another step along the journey.  

 

From an Arrow universe standpoint their "love" makes more sense than any other relationship. Barry and Felicity were adorable in their similarities, but a lightning bolt struck before they knew each other and could explore possibilities. Oliver has lied to Laurel for years. Oliver and Sara know more about each other, but IMO they were a pattern they fell back into destructive to both of them. One could argue if Oliver loved Felicity he wouldn't have banged Isobel or Sara. However, I'm not sure Oliver really recognizes the happier spectrum of emotions. I'd argue he's never loved before because a main component of love is putting someone else first. We haven't seen him do that in any of this romantic relationships before. 

 

At the end of the day, Oliver hasn't had to hide from Felicity. They've had their bumps in the road and disagreed about the best course of action, however they've always had each other's backs. They've moved past lying to each other. They both have aspects of their past which they haven't shared with each other. I also believe they both bring out the best in each other.

 

I am grateful if they are going to do Olicity and make it a long term romance it wasn't a hot guy spies hot chic and they screw. It is kind of nice the EPs are willing to forego their plan of O/L for the organic relationship between O/F. Their relationship has been more natural than even Oliver and McKenna - who he lied to from the start. Helena wasn't about the romance so much as about what Oliver could become. They could have tried to make Isobel more, but given their poor planning for her character I am glad they didn't. 

 

I believe we've been watching them "fall in love" from the first meeting. It is nuanced and subtle but sometimes an anvil isn't necessary. Here's to hoping they recognize it and continue down the delicate path.

[SmallScreenDiva]

It seems like all the news was dropped pretty deliberately. They've given out plenty to keep people talking and they can still sit on all their important goodies. They dropped an Olicity bomb but they've still got around two months to allow the dust to settle from that. It's like a marketing plan or something.

 

It definitely feels like it. I wasn't paying attention on social media during the past hiatus, but during this one, there's really does seem to be a deliberate push for Olicity. Like Arrow's FB/Twitter/Tumblr pages have been posting these photos with quotes of moments between Oliver and Felicity either on Thursdays (#ThrowbackThursday) or Fridays (#FelicityFriday) ...

 

And while the Tumblr page has pretty much been Olicity heavy — it definitely knows its audience, methinks — it hasn't been this blatant (and I mean that in a good way) about which pairing it is promoting. Someone on Tumblr pointed out the tags on the page's posts and they are a shipper's delight.

 

I think it's smart for the EPs and Stephen to make this statements. Yes, they're gonna get blowback from Lauriver (Lauliver? I don't know what the shipper name is) fans but really how many of those are there? And I'm not trying to be catty saying that. What I mean is if Laurel and Oliver's romance had resonated with more people, well, we probably wouldn't even be talking about Olicity. By making sure people know the show has picked a romantic direction for Oliver and sticking with it (at least for this season), then they are reassuring those who had become wary after the events of Season 2 Part B, who had gotten mad because of the fake-out in the finale, who have sworn off the whole show because they just couldn't get behind the original pairing.

[ban1o]

So according to Colton Haynes interviews, Roy doesn't actually tell anybody, including Oliver about the note that Thea left, so why isn't Oliver worried about her, I mean she's his sister? Where on earth does he think she is? And why exactly does Roy withhold this information from Oliver?  

[Velocity23]

I think O thinks she is traveling Europe, same way Thea thought O was somewhere in Europe or where ever while he was hiding on the island during the s2 hiatus. 

[apinknightmare]

So according to Colton Haynes interviews, Roy doesn't actually tell anybody, including Oliver about the note that Thea left, so why isn't Oliver worried about her, I mean she's his sister? Where on earth does he think she is? And why exactly does Roy withhold this information from Oliver?  

 

Oliver thinks Thea's backpacking through Europe - I'm going to assume that they've been in contact with each other and she's been lying to him about it.

 

I'm not sure why Roy would withhold it from Oliver, since you'd think Roy would be trying to find her and would need Oliver's help with that. Maybe it's his way of getting back at Oliver for making Roy lie to her? I can't really figure that part out.

[ban1o]

I think O thinks she is traveling Europe, same way Thea thought O was somewhere in Europe or where ever while he was hiding on the island during the s2 hiatus. 

lol but why would he think that? I'm assuming she hasn't been in contact with Oliver at all and she left without saying goo bye. At least for S2 I assume he told everyone that he was going to Europe when he was actually on the island instead. 

 

ETA: Oops I posted before I saw your reply apinknightmare. So you think Thea's been in contact with Oliver. Interesting. From the way she left and sounded in her letter, I thought she would cut off contact with everybody but I guess we'll see. 

Edited July 29, 2014 by ban1o

[KenyaJ]

I couldn't have said that any better, AnalyzeAndCritique, and ITA. I mentioned last night how much I liked that there hasn't been any grand epiphany and that it's been quieter and "between the lines." Anyway, based on the "show, not tell" rule, I don't have any problem buying that they're in love, but I'm looking forward to seeing the effect that acknowledging their feelings but not being able to act on them has on their dynamic and the dynamic in the Arrow cave in general. (I'm counting on much snarkiness from Diggle!)

 

That was me! And I really wasn't expecting the gold mine that was his answer at all. I mean, I guess I maybe touched upon romance by mentioning Olicity first, but I honestly expected him to talk about signing his company over to Isabel, even though Isabel only entered his life as someone who was interested in taking his company in the first place, making that a super boneheaded move. [Oliver (well, all the Queens, really) and smart finances are not an OTP, apparently.]

 

That was you? You're adorable.  :-) And great question!

[Velocity23]

Maybe she sending O photo-shopped pics of herself in Europe, i dont know lol, or maybe she told Roy to say that O. 

[apinknightmare]

See, I totally buy that Oliver and Felicity love each other and are falling in love with each other. Like @AnalyzeAndCritique wrote - it's been very subtle.

 

I think Felicity is emotionally mature enough to be able to recognize her feelings for him for what they are, and probably never in a million years thought he would reciprocate. So, she encourages him, guides him along this path, believes in him, all while trying to tamp all that down so she doesn't get hurt. That's why I think she wasn't jealous of Sara - because she truly loves him and wants him to be happy. If she thought being with Sara offered him that, then she'd be supportive even if it was difficult for her.

 

I think love looks different for Oliver after the island. It's not showy, it's not all romantic declarations and wooing. It's protectiveness and emotional vulnerability, both of which he offers her increasingly throughout the second season. I think he loves her but is too emotionally immature to be able to trust it, too scared too be able to really pursue it, and too damaged to believe that he deserves the love she would offer him in return. So, when things are going well, it's easy for him to take a chance on it, all while waiting for the other shoe to drop. When it does, he backs off.

 

And see, I think that Oliver's whole "it's not safe for you to be with me" schpiel is a form of self-preservation. It's all, "I'm dangerous, you'll get hurt, it's not safe to be with me," which are all things I think he truly believes about himself, and I also think that he labors under misapprehension that not being with her will make it hurt less for him if something does happen to her (which we know is not true, but then again, Oliver is an idiot). 

 

I'm hoping these declarations are as raw and real as they're being hyped to be. I hope they both lay it out, that Oliver tells her he loves her but he has to commit himself to being the Arrow, so he can't commit to her (which, I'm guessing by season's end he'll realize he can), and that Felicity tells him she loves him, but she's scared of being hurt by him (which is understandable given that he's backing off the first chance he gets - that doesn't bode well for future stability).

 

Since it doesn't seem like any romantic entanglements between Felicity and Ray would happen for a while (since they have a contentious relationship at the beginning), and he seems to recognize her talent, I can see her blossoming under him professionally and knowing him being good for Felicity. I can also see how watching that relationship unfold would be beneficial to Oliver in his personal journey. I can see him learning throughout the season what it means to love and be in love with her.

 

I also fully expect Oliver to try to get both Felicity and Diggle to leave the team this year. I'm actually beginning to think Felicity might, for a little bit, but I'm still waffling on that.

Edited July 29, 2014 by apinknightmare

[Orion]

Thinking back on everything from 2B to comic con it really does make a lot of things make more sense to me now.

 

The lead up in S2 A to Oliver and Felicity begins. Oliver and Laurel break up at Tommy's grave. Olicity starts developing and moving forward, including giving them a romantic theme score. We get the Russia episode and the "Life that I lead speech" Felicity is given all the romantic hero beats with creating his bow and putting on his mask to helping him find another way. ( all stuff others have talked in other threads much better than I ever could) 

 

At some point right in there SA goes to the producers and either asks for Olicity or asks to stop hooking up with every female on the show. (maybe after Isabel)

 

The producers decide to go all in on Olicity but they need to 1. put a nail in Lauriver and 2. They still really really want their Black Canary/Green Arrow hook up. We get the hook up with Sara out of no where to fulfill the writers wish list.  Then they have that OOC moment where Oliver shows up at the Lance dinner just so he can plainly state he's "done" with her. (re-reading that hallway speech I didn't remember how brutal that was. Especially, "Why don't you go get wasted. Go to Verdant and I'll pay for it." Ouch).  They didn't have time to do either of those plot points justice in a more believable way but they had to get them in there.

 

At this point Kreisenberg goes out and makes the comparison between Lois and Clark but most people over look the full quote which goes on to says "But Laurel will always be one of the closest people to him, whether that’s romantic or not.  That’s why it’s so powerful to us that, in his darkest hour, Laurel is the one who pulls him out of it."  (which is blah, blah, blah about the speech she gives him but it is the first indication we get from the producers that Lauriver might not be their OTP)
 

Moving forward to the finale, the producers thought they were being clear about the "Unthinkable" act that Oliver had to do, sacrificing the woman he loves to save the city. But it wasn't clear and people debated. Did he lie to her about loving her? Did he sacrifice Felicity to save Laurel? That was what all the talk on line and the media the day after the finale aired. They send SA out at Upfronts to all but say it was not a fake out and to reassure people that they would deal with it next season. But people still debate it.

 

The WB, CW, and DC twitters, tumblrs and facebook go all in on Felicity and Olicity all summer long RTing and posting fanart  positive Olicity comments and romantic quotes. DC announces that Felicity's character is moving over to the comics and that Olicity's playful banter will be included in that.

 

Then at Comic Con they decide to make it extremely clear where this season is going. They want to pad the landing and prepare the people who aren't into Oliver and Felicity to minimize the upset during the season and like someone said above, reassure the Olicity fans that this is being taken seriously.  So SA is tasked with breaking the news that Sara and Laurel ships are done. Felicity is the one woman going forward this season. He's very careful to say Sara and Laurel and Oliver will be together just not together, together.  This is backed up in smaller interviews by the EPs.  The PR people are very careful to keep the woman out of it.  KC and EBR aren't present during any of these interviews, which keeps KC from having to sit through question after question about Olicity (The Arrow panel moderator basically used Olicity to whip the fans up during the whole panel. Imagine if KC was sitting there for that). And EBR is kept away to stop Olicity from taking over all the Arrow talk, reassuring fans that the romance will not take over the show and to make sure that the anger the Lauriver fans feel is not directed at her but confined to the EPs and SA.  The ladies are kept out of the autographs line so they don't get questioned on it and the which one of the Lances will be the Black Canary question. The only big event they are all together for, beyond photo sessions away from the public is the large DC panel, which is less likely to break down into a Arrow/Olicity conversation with so much going on besides those issues.

 

In addition the EPs do not announce Sara as a recurring character for this season, they tease Ted Grant, they tease the jacket and "Laurel's journey" and I'm sure they would have done more of that if any of the interviews would have asked. As it was, they had to keep bringing it up when they weren't asked. They give KC the chance to hint at it during the DC panel the biggest event, to further point toward Black Canary. She misses her chance by trying to be funny but they set her up for it. The EPs try to make Laurel fans happy by admitting yes the romance is gone but she will still have an important role going forward.

 

(not trying to be conspiracy theory here. This is just a comment on the PR side and how when I add everything up I really get a clear picture of how this came about.)

[foreverevolving]

15 years, she was born in 1985 and he was born in 1970.

It looks like you are right. for some reason her Wiki page says she was born in 1978 and lists her as 36. but other sources says 1985.

thank you for correcting me!

[KirkB]

See, I can envision Malcolm arranging to have postcards and/or emails sent to Oliver supposedly coming from Thea (probably without her knowledge), telling him she's all right and she plans to spend some time on her own, etc. while simultaneously blocking any correspondence from Oliver TO Thea (obviously without her knowledge) in order to promote her isolation.

[Velocity23]

Suicide Squad Spinoff rumors:

 

 

The talk has been kind of connecting the tissue of the last season to the beginning of the next season with maybe some Suicide Squad during the hiatus perhaps," Ramsey says. "That's been one option. The other option has been having two or three episodes during the season."

 

http://www.zap2it.com/blogs/arrow_season_3_suicide_squad_spinoff-comic_con-2014-07

[ban1o]

See, I can envision Malcolm arranging to have postcards and/or emails sent to Oliver supposedly coming from Thea (probably without her knowledge), telling him she's all right and she plans to spend some time on her own, etc. while simultaneously blocking any correspondence from Oliver TO Thea (obviously without her knowledge) in order to promote her isolation.

I didn't think about that as a possibility. But that's definitely a good theory. I think it's more likely than Thea contacting Oliver and lying to him that she's in Europe. I feel like Malcolm would encourage complete isolation from everyone else and I don't feel she would be contacting Oliver at all. I can imagine Malcolm doing that.  

 

Another theory I had is that Roy could have just lied to Oliver and told him that Thea ran away to Europe because she needed some alone time without telling him the whole truth about her letter and such. but I feel like if Oliver didn't hear from Thea in 5 months he would get worried. I mean, she only like 19. 

[quarks]

Sidenote here: the showrunners have said that they do pay some attention to social media - I don't think they have time personally to check that much, but Guggenheim says he watched Twitter during the season finale, for instance. They also have some CW monkeys keeping a general eye on different social media sites.

But what I find really fascinating is that the networks are now saying that they are getting and studying the Nefflix/Hulu data along with the Amazon/iTunes data. The second tells them which individual episodes people buy. The first tells them not just how people are watching the shows - non stop marathon, one episode a night, here and there, which episodes get rewatched, and so on, but also, which scenes get rewound and where viewers fast forward and which scenes get rewatched multiple times.

What this means is that the networks now have hard data on a lot of things: what people are saying on social media in general (Twitter is considered free advertising for shows, and there's now data showing that although trending on Twitter doesn't necessarily lead to higher ratings, although it has with Scandal and Sleepy Hollow, it does lead to higher purchase/download numbers, so Twitter is important in that sense) but also on what viewers are actually watching. Unfortunately this doesn't get rid of the importance of ratings even if, according to CBS, ratings are no longer a good indication of post viewing numbers and revenue. In the case of the CW specifically ratings are one factor the affiliates will be using to decide whether or not the CW should even stay around, so it is still a concern for Arrow, as well as the main factor influencing its budget, even if by all indications that isn't where Arrow is making most of its revenue.

I highly doubt that all of the show's plot decisions are based on this, by the way. Thea frankly wasn't on screen enough last season to have any data arguing for or against increasing her role in the third season, much less turning her into a villain. But I think it's an interesting situation going forward for all shows, not just Arrow.

[ban1o]

I highly doubt that all of the show's plot decisions are based on this, by the way. Thea frankly wasn't on screen enough last season to have any data arguing for or against increasing her role in the third season, much less turning her into a villain. But I think it's an interesting situation going forward for all shows, not just Arrow.

I know Thea is generally well liked on this board but I know on a lot of other boards, especially like imdb, a lot of people really don't like Thea or think she's annoying or overdramatic Perhaps that's why they turned her into a villain? lol.

[SilverLake0315]

Thinking back on everything from 2B to comic con it really does make a lot of things make more sense to me now.

 

The lead up in S2 A to Oliver and Felicity begins. Oliver and Laurel break up at Tommy's grave. Olicity starts developing and moving forward, including giving them a romantic theme score. We get the Russia episode and the "Life that I lead speech" Felicity is given all the romantic hero beats with creating his bow and putting on his mask to helping him find another way. ( all stuff others have talked in other threads much better than I ever could) 

 

At some point right in there SA goes to the producers and either asks for Olicity or asks to stop hooking up with every female on the show. (maybe after Isabel)

 

The producers decide to go all in on Olicity but they need to 1. put a nail in Lauriver and 2. They still really really want their Black Canary/Green Arrow hook up. We get the hook up with Sara out of no where to fulfill the writers wish list.  Then they have that OOC moment where Oliver shows up at the Lance dinner just so he can plainly state he's "done" with her. (re-reading that hallway speech I didn't remember how brutal that was. Especially, "Why don't you go get wasted. Go to Verdant and I'll pay for it." Ouch).  They didn't have time to do either of those plot points justice in a more believable way but they had to get them in there.

 

At this point Kreisenberg goes out and makes the comparison between Lois and Clark but most people over look the full quote which goes on to says "But Laurel will always be one of the closest people to him, whether that’s romantic or not.  That’s why it’s so powerful to us that, in his darkest hour, Laurel is the one who pulls him out of it."  (which is blah, blah, blah about the speech she gives him but it is the first indication we get from the producers that Lauriver might not be their OTP)

 

Moving forward to the finale, the producers thought they were being clear about the "Unthinkable" act that Oliver had to do, sacrificing the woman he loves to save the city. But it wasn't clear and people debated. Did he lie to her about loving her? Did he sacrifice Felicity to save Laurel? That was what all the talk on line and the media the day after the finale aired. They send SA out at Upfronts to all but say it was not a fake out and to reassure people that they would deal with it next season. But people still debate it.

 

The WB, CW, and DC twitters, tumblrs and facebook go all in on Felicity and Olicity all summer long RTing and posting fanart  positive Olicity comments and romantic quotes. DC announces that Felicity's character is moving over to the comics and that Olicity's playful banter will be included in that.

 

Then at Comic Con they decide to make it extremely clear where this season is going. They want to pad the landing and prepare the people who aren't into Oliver and Felicity to minimize the upset during the season and like someone said above, reassure the Olicity fans that this is being taken seriously.  So SA is tasked with breaking the news that Sara and Laurel ships are done. Felicity is the one woman going forward this season. He's very careful to say Sara and Laurel and Oliver will be together just not together, together.  This is backed up in smaller interviews by the EPs.  The PR people are very careful to keep the woman out of it.  KC and EBR aren't present during any of these interviews, which keeps KC from having to sit through question after question about Olicity (The Arrow panel moderator basically used Olicity to whip the fans up during the whole panel. Imagine if KC was sitting there for that). And EBR is kept away to stop Olicity from taking over all the Arrow talk, reassuring fans that the romance will not take over the show and to make sure that the anger the Lauriver fans feel is not directed at her but confined to the EPs and SA.  The ladies are kept out of the autographs line so they don't get questioned on it and the which one of the Lances will be the Black Canary question. The only big event they are all together for, beyond photo sessions away from the public is the large DC panel, which is less likely to break down into a Arrow/Olicity conversation with so much going on besides those issues.

 

In addition the EPs do not announce Sara as a recurring character for this season, they tease Ted Grant, they tease the jacket and "Laurel's journey" and I'm sure they would have done more of that if any of the interviews would have asked. As it was, they had to keep bringing it up when they weren't asked. They give KC the chance to hint at it during the DC panel the biggest event, to further point toward Black Canary. She misses her chance by trying to be funny but they set her up for it. The EPs try to make Laurel fans happy by admitting yes the romance is gone but she will still have an important role going forward.

 

(not trying to be conspiracy theory here. This is just a comment on the PR side and how when I add everything up I really get a clear picture of how this came about.)

 

I think this is a brilliant analysis!  It would certainly explain a LOT.

[poetgirl925]

Yes, it really seems that social media, downloads and next day viewing all factor in now. I bought the iTunes pass after watching Three Ghosts but when I watched 11-17 I wished I hadn't. That was where I took my break. I wasn't going to buy the pass again but now I might (well, maybe after the first 4-6 eps lol.)

[quarks]

Social media counts as free advertising and is apparently effective. Downloads and legal streaming count as actual revenue. So there's a financial angle at play here.

[dtissagirl]

I think the fact that they went through and renewed Beauty and the Beast is the highest signal ever that ratings are not the #1 deciding point on what to renew or not. Still very relevant for ad buyers and US affiliates, but social media, digital viewing, and international markets all add real value in the decision now. And even more so, social media [and Netflix/Hulu as @quarks brilliantly explained] add not only quantitative data [i.e. number of downloads/views, # of followers and likes and retweets], but they also inform quality/content data -- what chararcter/pairing is trending, what episodes are the fan favorites, what scenes resonate better, something that ratings never managed to do before. It does make sense that EPs and networks are making informed decisions based on fan reaction now BECAUSE they actually have the pertinent data to analyze.

 

Also, @Orion -- I just wish I could thumb up your post 3 billion times, thanks for writing it. <3 Totally agreeing with you on how the SDCC PR went, pretty sure that's what went on.

Edited July 29, 2014 by dancingnancy