Jump to content

Type keyword(s) to search
Spoilers, New Topics & Co
Celebrating 25 Years Of The West Wing

Spoiler Discussion Thread

Morrigan2575

By Morrigan2575
in Arrow

  • Start Topic

Recommended Posts

insomniadreams88

insomniadreams88

I feel like Arrow would have been better off having Laurel marrying Tommy in the 100th, but with Tommy off-screen for the episode due to CD filming Chicago Med, and then focused on Laurel's relationship with her sister since Sara is in the dream world and maybe somehow her father too even though Lance isn't. (I'm still bitter that Lance didn't get to the hospital until after she'd died.) (Also, AK couldn't think of a better way to describe Laurel's relationship with her father and sister than to state that she's Sara's sister and Lance's daughter but could come up with "Oliver's great love"? I kind of hope there's more to that quote than that.) Still could've had some Oliver and Laurel scenes in the 100th. 

I'm going into the 100th with low expectations for Felicity, for Diggle, for OTA, for Olicity and even for Lance. Here's hoping that the Thea and Moira scenes make up for anything I don't like. 

  • Love 1
Link to comment
  • Replies 90.8k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

  • apinknightmare

    7534

  • Morrigan2575

    5006

  • Chaser

    4512

  • statsgirl

    3172

Popular Days

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Popular Posts

Carrie Ann
Carrie Ann

Me for all of last summer hiatus and 5A: Me after reading the WM interview from a few weeks back about Felicity's arc giving her a more profound understanding of Oliver: Me after r

BkWurm1
BkWurm1

I tend to think that trying to make KC a place on the show had a ripple effect that did hurt the show pretty badly.  She's what turned Quentin stupid and into a creepy stalker.  So that wipes off the

calliope1975
calliope1975

Challenge accepted.

Posted Images

lemotomato

lemotomato

11 minutes ago, LeighAn said:

In other news GreenArrowTV tweeted that there is a slight Olicity nod on the 100th and that Oliver has flashbacks to their scenes. So I'm guessing a meet cute with Felicity in dream world causes Oliver to have flashes of his real past and break the spell.

Did the reviewers get screeners of the crossover?

Link to comment
Starfish35

Starfish35

Oh good grief.  I knew AK was always more pro-Laurel and pro-Lauriver than MG was, but I wouldn't have expected him to still be beating that drum.  I'm kind of dreading this episode now (and wouldn't be watching at all if it weren't for the crossover).

  • Love 9
Link to comment
wonderwall

wonderwall

15 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

Oh good grief.  I knew AK was always more pro-Laurel and pro-Lauriver than MG was, but I wouldn't have expected him to still be beating that drum.  I'm kind of dreading this episode now (and wouldn't be watching at all if it weren't for the crossover).

Well... AK had nothing to do with this episode... 

Link to comment
BkWurm1

BkWurm1

1 hour ago, calliope1975 said:

I know I'm getting the order of these statements incorrect, but first it was a love letter to the fans. Then a love letter to the show. I think I'm missing one other comment about who this is a love letter to. Now, it's like the 100th issue of a comic. Can TIIC get their talking points straight? 

While it is entirely possible that this episode could be a love letter to FANS! the SHOW! and to COMICS! please pardon my skepticism. 

Note to TPTB: Please, please, please prove me wrong. 

Also at one time it was a love letter to the first season.

1 hour ago, statsgirl said:

If "she was Oliver's great love", heaven spare me from a love like that.

Well, she was Oliver's "great love" until he grew up and realized what real love was, lol.  But sure, for part of the time he was first on the island, he thought of Laurel a lot and then apparently five years later he decided to look her up again.  For Oliver that counted as great love since she was pretty much the only "love" of his that was even alive.  

  • Love 3
Link to comment
Chaser

Chaser

12 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

Oh good grief.  I knew AK was always more pro-Laurel and pro-Lauriver than MG was, but I wouldn't have expected him to still be beating that drum.  I'm kind of dreading this episode now (and wouldn't be watching at all if it weren't for the crossover).

This is the same dude who waxed poetry about her being the Greatest Hero to ever Hero after her death. The character all others aspire too be. The Finest, the Bravest, ...blah blah blah.

I've always felt that AK talks about Laurel/BC as if she was the comics character, not the one they created for the show. Huge disconnect. Someone needs to link him to some of the posts here that breakdown how not important Laurel is.

  • Love 13
Link to comment
Guest

Guest

The show in AK's head is definitely not the one I've been watching for 4 seasons. Yikes. I was going to watch the crossover but now I think I'll watch the paint dry in my bedroom instead.

Link to comment
Morrigan2575

Morrigan2575

  • Author
(edited)
1 hour ago, LeighAn said:

In other news GreenArrowTV tweeted that there is a slight Olicity nod on the 100th and that Oliver has flashbacks to their scenes. So I'm guessing a meet cute with Felicity in dream world causes Oliver to have flashes of his real past and break the spell.

Lines up with what I've been saying, meeting Felicity (307 nod) helps wake Oliver up to the dream vs real world.

My guess for Olicity flashbacks First Meeting definitely (103), first kiss (301) almost definitely, ILY (223) very likely.

Edited by Morrigan2575
  • Love 3
Link to comment
looptab

looptab

(edited)

About Ak's comment, I mean, he said she was AT the heart of the  show - because of her connections to those other  characters. I find that debatable, but ok, some  could see it that  way, haha. Luckily the  show hasn't been going in that direction for a while.  I don't even take issue with the great love part. If this  show has taught me anything is that these people  don't give words the same  weight I do.

Edited by looptab
  • Love 2
Link to comment
Velocity23

Velocity23

I just love AK. He talks all this nonsence, but he still left LL dead and didnt bring KC back in a permanent role.  He has Flash and LOT at his disposal but the fact is, he is not bringing her back. His lip service doesnt mean anything because just like  KCs headcanons dont really exist on the show.

  • Love 13
Link to comment
statsgirl

statsgirl

12 hours ago, Chaser said:

I've always felt that AK talks about Laurel/BC as if she was the comics character, not the one they created for the show.

This.

I'm honestly far more worried about lacking OTA in the episode than Laurel being the heart and soul of it.

  • Love 4
Link to comment
tv echo

tv echo

(edited)
Quote

The 100th episode, while very much a part of the Invasion storyline, also provides a sort of Bizzaro version of It’s a Wonderful Life by showing Ollie what would have happened if he was never shipwrecked. Moira and Robert Queen are alive and loving with each other and their children. Ollie and Thea have both matured from their hard partying youths into mature adults. And Laurel Lance is Ollie’s fiancée. Laurel and Ollie are blissfully in love, just days before their wedding. Without the weight of the city, and sometimes the world on his shoulders, Oliver Queen is happy, well-adjusted, and has everything he ever wanted. But if he chooses the fantasy, it will be Ollie who fails the city, by no longer being its protector. Oliver Queen has a choice to make. And it’s not necessarily the same one he would have made five, or even ten years earlier when he was shipwrecked.

I find this incredibly hard to believe. If Oliver had never been shipwrecked, he would not have matured into a decent human being or become less selfish. He would have grown up into a rich, spoiled, self-centered adult. He would've followed the examples of his parents:  Robert was an unscrupulous, unethical businessman, and Moira was a ruthless woman who covered up (and would no doubt have continued to cover up) her son's mistakes. Both parents were unfaithful to each other. Laurel either forgave or never knew about Oliver's cheating with her sister Sara (which started before he got on the boat). And in this blissful "what if" life, would Samantha and secret son William have played a part - since they also happened prior to Oliver getting on the boat?

It really sounds like the 100th episode is choosing to ignore everything we've been led to believe over the past four seasons of Arrow.

Four plus seasons of Arrow and 99 episodes.  Out of that, Laurel was Oliver's love for only one season. Even during the five years away, flashbacks showed that Oliver wasn't exactly faithful to or thinking a lot about Laurel. On the other hand, Felicity was Oliver's love for two (arguably three) seasons. Yet the 100th episode chose to focus on Lauriver and have only a "slight Olicity nod"? The EPs just continue to sh*t on Olicity fans this season.

Edited by tv echo
  • Love 13
Link to comment
LeighAn

LeighAn

Wow does that sound like a Lauriver love fest or what. I guess we all better be prepared to grin and bear it. 

Either that or being a comic site they're over exaggerating Oliver and Laurel and accidentally (on purpose) forgetting significant Olicity moments. I mean there's been confirmation of at least and Olicity nod. 

But at this point I would not be shocked if the writers wrote a Lauriver love fest because they think it's a love letter to the comics. We are just going to have to count on Stephen and Katie's anti chemistry. 

Link to comment
Chaser

Chaser

 99% sure DR referred to Sara as Black Canary.

I think Olivers "What if" is going to look a lot like Laurels dream world. A screener was asked about KC/Laurel in the episode and the reply was that Arrow fans who had been there since day one should be happy and that Laurel fans should be satisfied. I took that to mean, minus Oliver as GA, this is Laurel and Ollie if 1x03 (and KC) hadn't happened. I'm not expecting an honest representation of the history of characters.

That being said, I'm also not expecting the world that ComicBook.com is portraying. I don't trust ComicBook interpretation of anything. Oliver could be having flashbacks to the Olicity greatest hits the whole episode and CB.com would still be saying Laurel is the true love and he doesn't want to leave her. 

  • Love 9
Link to comment
LeighAn

LeighAn

Just like MG tweeted part of his conversation about the 5x09 Olicity flash back that was likely meant to be dmd he's done something similar again.

So it's a stretch but he might have had another convo with Jbuffyangel? Check his timeline. Fingers crossed

Link to comment
bijoux

bijoux

8 minutes ago, Chaser said:

That being said, I'm also not expecting the world that ComicBook.com is portraying. I don't trust ComicBook interpretation of anything. Oliver could be having flashbacks to the Olicity greatest hits the whole episode and CB.com would still be saying Laurel is the true love and he doesn't want to leave her. 

Even GA TV tweeted about flashes (plural) to Oliver and Felicity's moments, including their meeting.

https://twitter.com/GreenArrowTV/status/803350427571847168

https://twitter.com/GreenArrowTV/status/803354637768105984

Link to comment
insomniadreams88

insomniadreams88

That review just makes me think that any logic has been thrown out the window. Why have Oliver and Thea matured without the events of the past 5 seasons? How are Oliver and Laurel "blissfully in love" when from what we know from before the island, he cheated on her? (I'm assuming he stopped? Why? Or are they just going to retcon that completely and say, "Oh, without the island, none of the cheating actually happened"? Look at 4x19; I wouldn't put it past them.)

Robert still cheated on Moira, right? Unless this dream world created by the aliens just completely disregards everything bad that happened - so maybe there was no cheating from either Queen man, Oliver didn't drop out of 4 colleges and therefore matured, Ray never lost Anna because I don't know, she never existed, so Felicity being with him makes sense? 

As for Samantha and William, I bet they're not even going to be mentioned because that wouldn't fit into this life here. They probably forgot they should still exist.

And I'm sorry, but how does Oliver have "everything he ever wanted" when the past couple of seasons have told us that what he wants is to be married to Felicity? I hope that's the reviewer saying that and not what the show is going to be trying to tell us. 

I only skimmed the review other than that paragraph quoted above, but since Oliver and Thea are "mature adults," are they really saying that it took Oliver 10 years to propose to Laurel and that's supposed to be a good thing/a sign that she's his "great love" when he was ready to propose to Felicity after only months? 

  • Love 2
Link to comment
Midnight Lullaby

Midnight Lullaby

Yeah, I really don't buy that without any life changing event Oliver would have eventually changed radically. Before going on the Gambit he was young, but still an adult and he was horribly selfish and with parents and a girlfriend that chose to look the other way so no reason to change.

  • Love 3
Link to comment
LeighAn

LeighAn

4 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

That review just makes me think that any logic has been thrown out the window. Why have Oliver and Thea matured without the events of the past 5 seasons? How are Oliver and Laurel "blissfully in love" when from what we know from before the island, he cheated on her? (I'm assuming he stopped? Why? Or are they just going to retcon that completely and say, "Oh, without the island, none of the cheating actually happened"? Look at 4x19; I wouldn't put it past them.)

Robert still cheated on Moira, right? Unless this dream world created by the aliens just completely disregards everything bad that happened - so maybe there was no cheating from either Queen man, Oliver didn't drop out of 4 colleges and therefore matured, Ray never lost Anna because I don't know, she never existed, so Felicity being with him makes sense? 

As for Samantha and William, I bet they're not even going to be mentioned because that wouldn't fit into this life here. They probably forgot they should still exist.

And I'm sorry, but how does Oliver have "everything he ever wanted" when the past couple of seasons have told us that what he wants is to be married to Felicity? I hope that's the reviewer saying that and not what the show is going to be trying to tell us. 

I only skimmed the review other than that paragraph quoted above, but since Oliver and Thea are "mature adults," are they really saying that it took Oliver 10 years to propose to Laurel and that's supposed to be a good thing/a sign that she's his "great love" when he was ready to propose to Felicity after only months? 

Ten bucks when people inevitably tweet the writers with some variation of these questions the writers and/or Stephen will logic it away with "but Aliens" or go on the defensive and claim that they're just "angry shippers" . 

  • Love 1
Link to comment
tangerine95

tangerine95

I don't think the dream world will actually do a what if thing in any sort of way that makes sense to what we know about the characters. I do expect them to pretend that world would be totally happy and perfect regardless of what they actually wrote about these characters pre gambit because once they kill off characters they tend to ignore their flaws and turn them into saints and this is an episode full of killed off characters. Imo they'll just use it as a way to have Oliver say goodbye and have emotional scenes with dead characters and that's the main purpose. 

  • Love 12
Link to comment
LeighAn

LeighAn

Just now, Password said:

@tv echo is that from the review? Are the portraying this as what would've certainly happened had he not stepped onto the Gambit, or a sort of bizarro dream?

It's from Comic Book . Com so you have to completely take it with a grain of salt because they have a very obvious bias. Like GreenArrowTV for instance.

Also it seems like the aliens trap Oliver and co in what they assume is his dream/fantasy world and I'm assuming the conflict of the episode is Oliver having to decide whether he stays in a world where he's not the Green Arrow he's parents are alive and he has his (not so) great love Laurel or if he breaks free and goes back to reality. Spoiler alert he'll choose to leave. Reinforcing that Oliver wants to be the Green Arrow and has moved on from the past and is no longer held back by his dead parents or dead Tommy or dead Laurel.

  • Love 6
Link to comment
tv echo

tv echo

(edited)
17 minutes ago, Password said:

@tv echo is that from the review? Are the portraying this as what would've certainly happened had he not stepped onto the Gambit, or a sort of bizarro dream?

The quote is from ComicBook's advance review (link posted above).  As for your second question:

-- GB: "[The 100th episode] really is a celebration of Arrow and also kind of in the vein and the spirit of the great what if comics." (Nov. 28, 2016 IGN article, page 49 of Spoilers thread)

-- WM: "We are actually going back to look at what Oliver's life would be like if he hadn't gotten on [his father's ship] the Gambit."  (Scan of page 40 of TV Guide Magazine, Nov. 21-Dec. 4, 2016 Double Issue, page 48 of Spoilers thread)

Edited by tv echo
Link to comment
Mellowyellow

Mellowyellow

(edited)

Maybe he's cheated for a good 8 years of those ten, finally decided he was going to marry Laurel. I've always thought he'd marry her eventually if he didn't meet Felicity since she'd never give up.

Thea probably did drugs for a while but eventually settled down. 

Queen parents marriage probably looks  like a happy arrangement between the rich and powerful.

Satan spawn is still out there somewhere to haunt them in the future in this AU but no Barry so no run in with spawn yet.

Since it's an AU maybe Felicity bypassed the Cooper fiasco, meets Ray, geeks out with him and marries him.

It can all be explained I think. 

It's an uncomplicated perfect on paper AU compared to the reality where the love of his life was paralysed, he deals with multiple big bads and then the love of his life leaves him forever because he tells a vile lie. 

He's lost Felicity forever right now as it stands so makes sense to settle for Laurel in an AU. She's always available and loves him 4eva. Better to hallucinate that than the woman you loved and lost. That's the way my mind works and I'm sticking to my story.

What I'm curious is how they'll portray his meeting with the lovely Mrs Palmer when he does meet her.

Edited by Mellowyellow
  • Love 1
Link to comment
Chaser

Chaser

8 minutes ago, bijoux said:

Even GA TV tweeted about flashes (plural) to Oliver and Felicity's moments, including their meeting.

https://twitter.com/GreenArrowTV/status/803350427571847168

https://twitter.com/GreenArrowTV/status/803354637768105984

Exactly. Every Ollie and Laurel moment could be highlighted by an Olicity flashback and some would still dismiss it as Oliver finally seeing how terrible he was with Felicity.

My biggest questions are Malcolm related. He was still creating the Undertaking, still Theas father. How do they answer those questions? If he doesn't sink the Gambit, what does that say about Roberts involvement? 

Im just thinking a lot won't make sense. 

  • Love 2
Link to comment
Midnight Lullaby

Midnight Lullaby

(edited)

Either Malcolm isn't evil in that reality or they are all happily celebrating after destroying the Glades together a few years ago.

So now that I think about it why is Laurel alive if Malcolm destroyed the Glades and Tommy wasn't in love with her and sacrificed himself to save her? Or maybe that's how they mention Tommy, LOL. The poor guy dies to save Laurel and her files in every reality/dream.

Edited by Midnight Lullaby
  • Love 2
Link to comment
wonderwall

wonderwall

(edited)

I don't really understand the issue here. Yes it's a what if episode, but this is also a dream so normal logic doesn't necessarily have to apply. By that I mean, Thea's existence if Moira and Malcolm never slept together (which happened well before the gambit so I don't understand the issue for this), Oliver becoming a mature adult without the gambit (which is actually probable)... 

If you want to apply logic though think of it this way... Just because they're all happy now doesn't mean they were all along. Oliver could've grown up and Moira/Robert could've reconciled their differences,etc. Remember that more than 10 years have passed since the supposed gambit. A lot can happen in 10 years. 

Edited by wonderwall
  • Love 5
Link to comment
Midnight Lullaby

Midnight Lullaby

I'm applying logic because it supposedly is an alien dream that shows up what would have happened if Oliver never went on the Gambit, so I consider what we know happened before that moment unchanged. It's not a dream where Oliver and the others are completely different person and only have the same names like other shows I watched did with their characters.

  • Love 3
Link to comment
Chaser

Chaser

4 minutes ago, wonderwall said:

I don't really understand the issue here. Yes it's a what if episode, but this is also a dream so normal logic doesn't necessarily have to apply. By that I mean, Thea's existence if Moira and Malcolm never slept together, Oliver becoming a mature adult without the gambit (which is actually probable)... 

It's the description of the world as a "What if". It basically asks the audience to figure out how they got from point A to point B. If they were to say it's a "What if" with a dreamy haze over history, it wouldn't encourage logical application.

  • Love 1
Link to comment
ComicFan777

ComicFan777

(edited)

I suppose to me, from this "what if Oliver never went on the Gambit" scenario, I would have expected an honest depiction of what would have really happened without the Gambit without ignoring everything that we have seen/heard of his past and that Oliver at the end of the episode would come to realize that he doesn't regret what he has gone through to become a better man and the GA.  

If they shape this what if scenario so that Oliver becomes a better man independent of his post-Gambit journey, then to me, his post-Gambit journey now has less meaning because he would have come pretty far without the suck and the only reason why he chooses to leave his fantasy and go back to reality is simply his obligation to save his city.

Edited by ComicFan777
  • Love 17
Link to comment
LeighAn

LeighAn

1 minute ago, wonderwall said:

I don't really understand the issue here. Yes it's a what if episode, but this is also a dream so normal logic doesn't necessarily have to apply. By that I mean, Thea's existence if Moira and Malcolm never slept together, Oliver becoming a mature adult without the gambit (which is actually probable)... 

I think it's because the premise isnt just its a dream but it's a "what would have happened if Oliver never got on the gambit" scenario.

For instance if Oliver never gets on the gambit why is there even a Slade/Death stroke since the whole reason Slade became death stroke is because of what happened on the Island. But I'm assuming that will be the weird occurrences that causes Oliver to question the dream reality.

I think the silver lining will be regardless of what happens in this dream it's going to reinforce that Oliver doesn't want that reality regardless of how much he misses those he lost.

Just now, ComicFan777 said:

I suppose to me, from this "what if Oliver never went on the Gambit" scenario, I would have expected an honest depiction of what would have really happened without the Gambit without ignoring everything that we have seen/heard of his past and that Oliver at the end of the episode would come to realize that he doesn't regret what he has gone through to become a better man and the GA.  

If they shape this what if scenario so that Oliver becomes a better man independent of his post-Gambit journey, then to me, his post-Gambit journey now has less meaning because he would have come pretty far without the suck and the only reason why he going back to reality is simply his obligation to save his city.

Exactly-this! What is the point of everything Oliver went through and how that changed and informed him as a hero if he becomes this super awesome person regardless of whether he got on the Gambit or not. 

  • Love 5
Link to comment
wonderwall

wonderwall

2 minutes ago, Chaser said:

It's the description of the world as a "What if". It basically asks the audience to figure out how they got from point A to point B. If they were to say it's a "What if" with a dreamy haze over history, it wouldn't encourage logical application.

Even logically, it's been 10 years since the gambit. A lot can happen in those 10 years. Something else could've triggered Oliver to grow up, Moira and Robert could've had a rocky marriage at some point but reconciled, laurel being the doormat that she is could've forgiven Oliver for his indiscretions... 

Again, all of this is not a far leap because 10 years is a very very long time. 

Link to comment
insomniadreams88

insomniadreams88

Maybe the Undertaking happened but they just don't care because none of them were affected? They could have been safely waiting it out in their mansions. Maybe Laurel never worked at CNRI in this dream world, so there was no reason for her to be in danger? I think there was a tweet (from GATV?) about how they're explaining Tommy's absence from the wedding rehearsal so I don't think he's dead. 

1 minute ago, LeighAn said:

For instance if Oliver never gets on the gambit why is there even a Slade/Death stroke since the whole reason Slade became death stroke is because of what happened on the Island. But I'm assuming that will be the weird occurrences that causes Oliver to question the dream reality.

I can't help but wonder if Deathstroke is going to be a result of something those on the outside of the dream world (Felicity, Cisco, etc.) insert into it to make those inside realize something's not right. I'm not saying they choose Deathstroke, but he could be the result of something that they do. 

  • Love 2
Link to comment
looptab

looptab

(edited)
13 minutes ago, ComicFan777 said:

the only reason why he chooses to leave his fantasy and go back to reality is simply his obligation to save his city.

Looks like this is what they're aiming for. Though I'm still reserving judgment - I didn't read the advance review. As of now, I'm not that bothered by that "Oliver Queen has everything he's ever wanted" because it could very well be referring to dream!Oliver rather than Oliver.

Edited by looptab
  • Love 4
Link to comment
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
Go to topic listing
×
×
  • Create New...