Spoiler Discussion Thread

[apinknightmare]

Ok, this sounds like it is in 12 when we get the "I don't want to be a woman you love." line from Felicity (I assume).  It sounds like she is going to reject Oliver.  All logic says it is to happen so that they can have a big reconciliation by the season finale but I'll admit, that line about "we chart our own course" gives me that old sick feeling.

 

Please don't let them have played the fandom. 

 

Yeah, I forgot about that line. I'll bet that's exactly what it is.

What does that mean exactly? Another something to delay Olicity like we all suspected or they're killing Olicity permanently?

 

They're not killing it permanently - but I'm guessing this is where Raylicity begins. 

[statsgirl]

I don't have any faith in the intelligence of the EPs any more but if they were smart, they would be giving fans Olicity if they want them to swallow the Laurel.Canary stuff.

 

And that course is not going to be celebrated by Olicity fans.

That's a line by the writer of the article, not a direct quote from Guggenheim. That's all the hope I have to hold on to.

[apinknightmare]

I don't have any faith in the intelligence of the EPs any more but if they were smart, they would be giving fans Olicity if they want them to swallow the Laurel.Canary stuff.

That's a line by the writer of the article, not a direct quote from Guggenheim. That's all the hope I have to hold on to.

 

Followed by Guggenheim saying he's going to have to get off of Twitter after it, so...it ain't gonna be good.

[AnalyzeAndCritique]

I don't have any faith in the intelligence of the EPs any more but if they were smart, they would be giving fans Olicity if they want them to swallow the Laurel.Canary stuff.

That's a line by the writer of the article, not a direct quote from Guggenheim. That's all the hope I have to hold on to.

This would be the smartest move. Give the fans a slice of what they want. If you insist on force feeding viewers Laurel as BC, let us swallow it with large gulps of Olicity.

[KenyaJ]

I am so seriously close to quitting this show. Nothing I want to see and everything I don't want to see. I'm not a masochist, so I think I may be out.

[Chiny11]

Ok, this sounds like it is in 12 when we get the "I don't want to be a woman you love." line from Felicity (I assume). It sounds like she is going to reject Oliver. All logic says it is to happen so that they can have a big reconciliation by the season finale but I'll admit, that line about "we chart our own course" gives me that old sick feeling.

Please don't let them have played the fandom.

I guess they are charting their course to Lauriver 2.0 (coincidentally I just posed a question about this in the relationship thread).

Well, I guess one show is going off my Dvr.

Edited January 11, 2015 by Chiny11

[Morrigan2575]

Not sure if this makes the answer better or worse but here's the full Q&A

With the overwhelming “Olicity” shipping that’s occurred on social media, it seemed like their collective efforts were willing any intimate moment with Oliver and Felicity into existence. Were the EPs just going with what the fans were tweeting for? Or was romance always in the cards for Ollie and Felicity?

"When we started there was no Felicity. Stephen and Emily had this very natural chemistry that we started writing towards. There wasn’t this grand plan to get these two characters together,” said Guggenheim. “It’s great that the fans on Twitter have embraced that relationship but we chart our own course.” And that course is not going to be celebrated by Olicity fans. “There’s a scene at the end of episode 12, it’s Emily’s strongest performance on the show,” Guggenheim said adding that he’ll have to get off Twitter due to all the discourse a few moments will bring.

[apinknightmare]

I guess they are charting their course to Lauriver 2.0 (coincidentally I just posed a question about this in the relationship thread).

Well, I guess one show is going off my Dvr.

 

Let's everyone chill a bit. Ray's here for a reason, and we knew this is what it was. They're not playing anyone, they're just plotting the trope-y, angsty course we always knew they would. That comment about charting their own course could be some kind of reassertion that they do what they want after DR said at that con in Phoenix that everyone pays big attention to social media, and if you want something, tweet about it. 

 

I guess this is good in some way that Felicity's arc with Ray is probably going to be motivated by not wanting to experience the pain of losing Oliver again (since he did tell her that the life he's chosen will only end one way, and she's unaware that he ever told Diggle he didn't want that), and thus will not be on the most solid of footing. I'm not upset in that I knew it would happen, but now I at least kind of know how it'll happen. Just the thought of Oliver and Felicity's reunion was giving me something to look forward to after dead Oliver/Black Canary/whatever in the hell else, but now it seems like it won't be a happy one, which disappoints me no end. 

Edited January 11, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Belinea]

It upsets me somewhat that fans who love a certain aspect of a show get looked down upon in such a manner. These fans who like that aspect of the show should not always be treated as stupid fangirls who disrupt the natural course they had planed. Yes, some fans are a little too passionate but many others just like that aspect to the show. If they don't want these fans then don't try to lure them in. Don't treat them like crap and make them feel as though they are forcing your hand. Once again I am quite sure that they really don't care about the things the audience enjoys. They only want the story to go the way the planed disregarding the fact that the best stories are the ones that tell itself. I am really frustrated with the show in general. But I started to watch for Diggle/Oliver/Felicity and I enjoy the action and the romance aspect. But this year I am not enjoying there ultimate return to be a comic book. 

[Password]

Sigh. My enthusiasm just died with the firm statement (IMO) that lunge 2.0 will happen at the end of episode 12. Nothing else would really make me feel ill..

Actually I feel ill right now.

I'm not sure I'll continue watching much of anything tbh. Even though I can't wait to see Ray blow things up...to save the city.

[Chiny11]

Well, Twitter will be interesting on the night episode 12 airs. This would be funny if it was not sad.

[statsgirl]

 

It upsets me somewhat that fans who love a certain aspect of a show get looked down upon in such a manner.

It depends what aspect you love. If you love the people putting on Hallowe'en costumes and beating each other up, then you're their kind of fan!

 

 

Felicity's arc with Ray is probably going to be motivated by not wanting to experience the pain of losing Oliver again (since he did tell her that the live he's chosen to live will only end one way, and she's unaware that he ever told Diggle he didn't want that)

So rejecting Oliver because she doesn't want to experience the pain of losing him, she will choose another guy who is going to put on a costume and risk getting himself killed every time. Excuse me while I hit my head against the wall for a moment.

[BkWurm1]

I can take delayed gratification. I don't hate Ray that much.  He's no real long term threat no matter what happens, I still feel that is clear from what we've seen about the intensity of Felicity's feelings toward Oliver and given everything hinted abut how devastated she's going to be about Oliver's death, I don't see that changing.  I can see her bowing out for one of two reasons.  Either Oliver still is an idiot or she thinks she is harmful to Oliver and takes herself out of the equation to save him.  All that would be angsty and not something I'd look forward to, but I can take it.

 

What I can't take is any kind of backslide toward Laurel as a romantic partner.  That is my deal breaker.  That would ruin the show for me. 

[Morrigan2575]

After reading the full q&a the comment about charting their own course, doesn't sound like a big FU Olicity fans we're going to kill ties ship and resurrect Lauiver. Sounds like another version of "we're not pandering".

Am I crazy? I am on a high with the Green Bay win so you never know.

[ban1o]

Eh I'm sure it just means that she'll reject him or something but they'll reunite later. It's just delaying Olicity a little bit. 

Edited January 11, 2015 by ban1o

[dtissagirl]

It frustrates me to no end that they're just following the most obvious serialized storytelling formulas. MG says they "chart their own course", but they really really don't. They need to stall Oliver/Felicity during February Sweeps, and Crazy Eyes is it, or Felicity's abandonment issues are it [or a combo of both], because relationships only get serious development during Sweeps month.

 

They're in the middle of season three, when it's virtually impossible to be cancelled -- hence the crazy early S4 pick up today -- and instead of breaking the mold, and doing anything unexpected in terms of character development, they're doing exactly what's expected of network tv shows. SIGH.

[jay741982]

Fuck MG is all I got to say Olicity is not the end all be all but geesus Oliver and Felicitys reunion can't even be a happy one and she chooses Boring Ray over Oliver? It depresses how much he does not seem to care what I'm assuming a majority of fans want! Why would you not put Olicity together and be done with it its not that hard. Sounds to me he's mad cause he wants to tell things his illogical way and not please fans.

[JenMD]

MG does tend to overstate, well, everything, so there's a chance it might not as terrible as everyone is suspecting (although it probably will be, whom I kidding?). 

Edited January 11, 2015 by JenMD

[statsgirl]

 

Sounds like another version of "we're not pandering".

 

It was a stupid question to start with because of course they didn't bring on Felicity to be Oliver's love interest.  Laurier failed and the SA/EBR chemistry fell into their laps and they went with it.

 

Guggenheim doesn't say what will stall them (and really, everyone and their dog expects to have to wait till May sweeps for them to get together).  The assumption that it's Ray is based on AK's comments in the summer and the pedantic storytelling that's been going on this season.

 

I really think Laurel as a romantic partner is not going to happen this season, making her BC and putting her in a relationship with Oliver while Felicity is background noise would hurt the show.

 

They're in the middle of season three, when it's virtually impossible to be cancelled -- hence the crazy early S4 pick up today -- and instead of breaking the mold, and doing anything unexpected in terms of character development, they're doing exactly what's expected of network tv shows. SIGH.

Yeah, it's really disappointing that at a time they can take real risks, they're retreating into the same old thing that was old decades ago. Can we swap MG for his wife?

 

On the plus side, EBR is getting some good scenes, which will help her in her career.

[catrox14]

Well I feel redeemed that my ongoing theory is that Laurel was trying to become her sister. And now it's true. F you show.

[Morrigan2575]

3. Laurel’s Black Canary mask has her between a rock and a hard place. It’s no secret that to avenge the death of her sister, Laurel’s taking up her mask to join the vigilante brigade. But what does that mean for her relationship with daddy dearest, Detective Lance, who still thinks Sarah’s alive, well and fighting crime?

“It puts Laurel in a really difficult, tough position. Being Laurel and Lance being aware that Black Canary is back on the street. He’s going to Laurel and saying ‘how can I get a hold of your sister?’ She doesn’t know how to tell him. what to tell him,” revealed Cassidy during a post-panel scrum. She added, it won’t be Oliver or Team Arrow members that she runs to for help. “She actually goes to Nissa to get advice and asks her what she thinks. But what she decides to do…?”

I can't believe they're actually doing this scene and trying to win fans over.

[BkWurm1]

I can't say that a romance with Ray is out of the question but I don't think it has to happen in 12.  Nothing we've see in the narrative says that Felicity will choose Ray over  Oliver and I really think we'll get the clear "I don't want to be a woman you love" line from her and if she immediately turned to Ray, it would seem like she has made a choice in his favor and that could not come off as anything but wildly out of character. 

 

Ray should be consolation to what she would have wanted, not presented as her first choice.  The writers have to know that so yeah, unless they do a "so upset I don't want to think" hook up aka "the lunge", Raylicity probably would happen in another episode. 

Edited January 11, 2015 by BkWurm1

[Soulfire]

Isn't there speculation that Oliver comes back at the end of 12 (SA returned for filming that ep, yes?)? So...he's going to return and she's either going to go straight to Ray and do...whatever, or she's going to tell him that she doesn't love him/it hurts too much blah, blah, blah, these people know how to stomp out any hint of enthusiasm I had left for the return of this show, jesus.

 

I'm getting Alias flashbacks. The protagonist secretly returns from believed dead by the world, only to pull her car up and watch the love of her life walk into a house with a new woman on his arm. If Arrow does anything like this I won't know whether to laugh, cry or throw my shoe through the TV.

Edited January 11, 2015 by Soulfire

[tv echo]

Guggenheim & gang are not going to change course unless ratings drop significantly.  But who wants ratings to drop?  So.. Catch-22.

[Happy Harpy]

I thought that the point of PR was making people to watch the show? 

Are they trying to do some strange Atom campaign, in order to promote Ray?

 

"Honey, I shrunk the audience!", brought to you courtesy of Arrow's TPTB.

 

Edit: Is there a superhero that makes people puke a little in their mouth? Because that's how I feel with every new spoiler/detail I get.

Edited January 11, 2015 by Happy Harpy

[apinknightmare]

So rejecting Oliver because she doesn't want to experience the pain of losing him, she will choose another guy who is going to put on a costume and risk getting himself killed every time. Excuse me while I hit my head against the wall for a moment.

 

That's why I wrote that it would be an emotional decision that wouldn't have solid footing. I doubt any of her decision making is going to be about Ray - it's going to be about dealing with what she feels for Oliver, and protecting herself from the consequences of those feelings (for example, having to live through him dying again, now that she knows how it feels). She probably won't be thinking, "let me get away from this one guy who could get killed doing what he does to this other guy who wants to do the same thing" - she'll probably be hurt, working through that, and then maybe seek Ray out as a distraction (even though I don't think she'll realize that she's using him as a distraction). 

 

Of course this is all assuming that her telling Oliver that she doesn't want to be a woman he loves (assuming AGAIN, that this is her line to him, which now seems obvious, but who knows) actually leads to something romantic with Ray. That might take a few eps (and hopefully it does). Also, Ray can be a legit choice for her without the two of them ever having a relationship - just having the possibility of one and choosing not to take it makes him a choice. But I think that Raylicity, even for a bit, is probably in the cards.

Edited January 11, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Chaser]

I dont have a problem with his answer per say. I knew they weren't going to put them together when he got back. I just wasn't a fan of the wording of the question and answer. After all the spoilers coming out about Laurel and Ray, I just needed something positive. My hope is that Oliver wants a relationship and she rejects it because of the trama. I dont want her to be angry about though, I want her to be sad. I want single Felicity and Oliver to prove himself to her. I just don't have any faith in the writers.

I'm assuming the answer to Laurels question, is Yes, I am my Sister. They are actively calling her Black Canary now. Dropping the narrative that she is going to really struggle. I think they have accepted it is really instant. What a way to undermine the origin story of The Green Arrow. I find it funny Laurel had that big scene yelling at Sara about stealing her life....guess this is Laurels revenge.

[Belinea]

To be honest, their shocking twists are mostly twists that many see coming. Laurel being Sara 2.0, Thea killing Sara, Oliver dying... Many people had guessed that and these people are not necessarily psychics. They simply can put two and two together. So it is not as though the people in charge are super creative or even trying to tell the most compelling story. 

Edited January 11, 2015 by Belinea

[jay741982]

Is it possible that Felicity pulls an Oliver and rejects him so he can stay focused on saving the City cause she starts believing she's his biggest weakness(Which along with Thea she is) and a Distraction to him.saving the city? I could see them ending episode 12 with her breaking his heart so to speak and then when alone she bursts Into tears cause like him she's pushing away the one she truly loves to keep him focused on the city?

[MsSchadenfreude]

 

 

After reading the full q&a the comment about charting their own course, doesn't sound like a big FU Olicity fans we're going to kill ties ship and resurrect Lauiver. Sounds like another version of "we're not pandering".

Am I crazy? I am on a high with the Green Bay win so you never know.

 

This Q&A is sounds like the same old stuff MG always says in interviews. Since I didn't expect Oliver/Felicity to get together before the end of this season and frankly I could see it being dragged out into the next season as well, I'm neither surprised or shocked that Felicity may end up with Ray for awhile.

 

And since my team did not win in the playoffs, a winner's high has nothing to do with your interpretation. :)

[Morrigan2575]

To be honest, their shocking twists are mostly twists that many see coming. Laurel being Sara 2.0, Thea killing Sara, Oliver dying... Many people had guessed that and these people are necessarily psychics. They simply can put two and two together. So it is not as though the people in charge are super creative or even trying to tell the most compelling story.

true and sadly most of those twists are things we all thought of and then dismissed as too stupid

[Angel12d]

LOL. Ok, show. MG was so enthusiastic about Olicity before s3 and now I feel like he's backtracking. "We chart our own course." That sounds very much like 'You're not gonna get what you want even though we've been promoting and playing it up all season haha suckers!' Whatever. I'm so done with this.

 

He's obviously trying to lay the groundwork for no Olicity and probably Felicity starting a relationship with Ray. 

[tv echo]

At this point, I'm not even sure that Oliver and Felicity will get together during May sweeps or even at the end of this season - or at all.

[TwistedandBored]

From the sound of it, second half of the season is looking like a huge cluster-fuck. Yikes!

[catrox14]

t puts Laurel in a really difficult, tough position. Being Laurel and Lance being aware that Black Canary is back on the street. He’s going to Laurel and saying ‘how can I get a hold of your sister?’ She doesn’t know how to tell him. what to tell him,” revealed Cassidy during a post-panel scrum. She added, it won’t be Oliver or Team Arrow members that she runs to for help. “She actually goes to Nissa to get advice and asks her what she thinks. But what she decides to do…?”

 

I can't believe they're actually doing this scene and trying to win fans over.

 

 

Oh just fuck off, Laurel. If you had told your police detective father in the first place when she was murdered, you wouldn't be in this position you stupid little girl. You get no sympathy from me.

[statsgirl]

All of this seems wildly out of character for Felicity, including throwing Oliver a melodramatic scene as soon as he gets back from being dead.

 

Incidentally, if he's in 312, and he's in that shot in 310, doesn't that make SA's statement that Oliver will be missing in 2 episodes wrong?

 

 I find it funny Laurel had that big scene yelling at Sara about stealing her life....guess this is Laurels revenge.

The Revenge of The Canary.  Or Die Schwarz Kanarischen if it's being set to music.

[apinknightmare]

LOL. Ok, show. MG was so enthusiastic about Olicity before s3 and now I feel like he's backtracking. "We chart our own course." That sounds very much like 'You're not gonna get what you want even though we've been promoting and playing it up all season haha suckers!' Whatever. I'm so done with this.

 

He's obviously trying to lay the groundwork for no Olicity and probably Felicity starting a relationship with Ray. 

 

I think his answer was just another way of saying "this isn't fan pandering - we're not putting it on the show because people on twitter are asking about it."

[jay741982]

I feel really bad as a Felicity fan saying this but I don't her happy with Ray I just can't it's Barf inducing. I want her happy but Ray is not the answer. I'd rather it be Barry then Ray and that's not gonna happen. Watching Felicity make out with Ray would be as gross as Sarah smooching Daniel Shaw on Chuck, which coincidentally was in season 3 like this show.

[catrox14]

 

find it funny Laurel had that big scene yelling at Sara about stealing her life....guess this is Laurels revenge.

 

This is what I've been saying since the s2 finale arc.  Laurel is wackadoodle.

[Password]

I have no doubt Olicity is endgame. It's the sitting through Raylicity I'm crying about.

[Belinea]

 

At this point, I'm not even sure that Oliver and Felicity will get together during May sweeps or even at the end of this season - or at all.

 

I have the feeling that they won't ever have them actually get together. They like the push and pull. They can also dangle it in front of the fans in case they need free promotion. Maybe the fans should just do what Felicity did in 3x01. Turn around and not look back.

[Chiny11]

All of this seems wildly out of character for Felicity, including throwing Oliver a melodramatic scene as soon as he gets back from being dead.

Well, to achieve "their" aim (which is Raylicity and "Stall or terminate Olicity") the writers are going to give us some OOC moments from Felicity (aka" throw her under the bus).

Well, I wish them luck with that strategy. Felicity fans and Olicity fans are going to be very upset.

[calliope1975]

I am so seriously close to quitting this show. Nothing I want to see and everything I don't want to see. I'm not a masochist, so I think I may be out.

 

I feel the same way, and it's causing a lot of feelings. I hate being this invested in a show. It's so much fun when it's enjoyable but when the quality goes down, it's just heartbreaking. Especially when so many people here (and elsewhere) can easily see where it went wrong and how to fix it. That TPTB refuse to entertain that they've charted the wrong course is so frustrating. 

 

Regarding the Felicity spoilers, I'm actually okay with her rejecting Oliver at this point in time. If this, however, means we're getting a Ray lunge, it's best that I won't be watching that episode or maybe at all. I'm flat out not watching a Ray/Felicity romance. I have no interest in Buckle Canary and her SWFing her superior sister. Roy is just...there. I love Diggle, but I love him in relation to Team Arrow, and by removing that, what's left? 

 

It's insulting as a fan that, at times, being an Olicity shipper seems to be called out. I am an Olicity shipper. I also love stunts and action. I like relationships between family members. I like some drama, a little bit of angst. In short, I like good writing and well rounded characters.

 

TPTB have taken away most of the familial relationships. Their drama is trite and predictable. Their characters are underdeveloped and have nonsensical motivations. They refuse to write the logical romance. The stunts have started to look ridiculous (motorcycle jousting and Roy parkouring all over the place.) But they want me to watch because everyone has a cool costume? No.

Edited January 11, 2015 by calliope1975

[Morrigan2575]

I think his answer was just another way of saying "this isn't fan pandering - we're not putting it on the show because people on twitter are asking about it."

I think without the question it sounds like a FU Olicity fans! At least that's how I read it.

I think when you read the question it seems obvious he's saying we're not fan pandering this is our choice.

Makes me wonder who asked that question

Edited January 11, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[Angel12d]

Oh, I still feel like Olicity will get together. Eventually. But I'm not so sure it will happen this season now, especially as I have a feeling Ray is sticking around in s4. 

[catrox14]

I have no doubt Olicity is endgame. It's the sitting through Raylicity I'm crying about.

 

I don 't think Olicity is the end game anymore. I think they are going to eventually kill off Felicity.

[jay741982]

Yep and we will blast them with calls of OOC

[ban1o]

I`m sure he`s just doing the slow approach with Olicity and doesn`t want to put them together so soon. I think he`s just warning fans ahead of time so he doesn`t get death threats when whatever happens in episode 12 happens lol. I think they`ll get together in May. 

 

But who knows he might be over-exaggerating and it`s not as bad as it sounds.  

Edited January 11, 2015 by ban1o

[Chiny11]

I feel really bad as a Felicity fan saying this but I don't her happy with Ray I just can't it's Barf inducing. I want her happy but Ray is not the answer. I'd rather it be Barry then Ray and that's not gonna happen. Watching Felicity make out with Ray would be as gross as Sarah smooching Daniel Shaw on Chuck, which coincidentally was in season 3 like this show.

Raylicity is awful. Just awful. I could take anyone... anyone. What about that her college roommate? He lives in Starling City. I don't mind him. Anyone but Ray.

I just cannot stomach Raylicity.

Edited January 11, 2015 by Chiny11

[jay741982]

Catrox14 that would be the stupidest fucking thing they could do. I'm saying it right now if they kill her off I will scream cuss Cry and never watch this show again