Spoiler Discussion Thread

[statsgirl]

I'm pretty sure Malcolm would have included archery in her training since that's his own forte.  Her archery trophies suggest the skill could be genetic.

 

Felicity and Thea speed dating would be hysterical, although Thea's about to get a new love interest.  Why do we only have Felicity/Thea friendship in fanfic?

 

@apinknightmare hit the nail that scares me: viewers judging Felicity for what is a perfectly normal thing- you get your heart broken, you don't sit around and mop for the rest of your life, 

Not the rest of her life, just longer than five weeks.  Show me that she does have feelings for Oliver and it wasn't just a crush.

 

 I don't want to see Felicity waking up in Ray's bed as if who she's with doesn't matter.  That's reserved for pre-island Oliver.

 

I think the judging is more about how TIIC are poorly handling everything about Arrow most of the viewers appreciated. I didn't mind some of the weaker stuff when I had the original TA and the bit of Olicity we had in 2A. 2B was a disaster and they said they recognized it and were fixing it. The number of people with access to the Arrow cave has gotten larger. TA is fractured. Olicity is not a thing right now. I reserve the right to be wary of where the show is going - Felicity date included. 

 

I'm not even going to speculate on who killed Sara because I think they wrote her murder without a murderer in mind. They are grasping for who killed her as much as Laurel is. They'll pick someone out of the hat and it won't make sense, but because they are driving the plot they'll have a murderer.

I think they planned her murder without a murderer in mind but I hope they had at least picked someone when they actually wrote it.  But Who Killed Sara is the crapiest murder mystery because ultimately I doubt it really matters who did it -- the point was to move Laurel's origin story along. (Although I'm intrigued that in both TV write-ups today, TV Line's spoiler column and Matt Roush's review, at this point almost all the Arrow comments are complaints about this season.)

 

If they were going to let Laurel into the Arrow cave and make this season all angsty, they should have at least left Team Arrow intact.  Give us something to hold on to.

[Orion]

I think they planned her murder without a murderer in mind but I hope they had at least picked someone when they actually wrote it.  But Who Killed Sara is the crapiest murder mystery because ultimately I doubt it really matters who did it -- the point was to move Laurel's origin story along. (

 

I agree with this and beyond character problems it is the biggest problem I have with season 3 so far.  In order to pull off a mystery storyline there are a few must haves the writers either don't know how to write for or just failed to plan into episodes.

 

There is no sense of urgency.  If our heroes don't figure out who killed Sara will someone else die?  It doesn't seem that way. It looks like it was just targeting Sara. If they don't solve the case will other bad things happen? Other than Laurel playing dress up.. Will evidence disappear if they don't find it fast enough? Do we even have clues? Are they going to keep waiting to stumble into evidence or wait for more people to confess so we can cross their names off the list?  

 

The reason why CSI type shows are fun to watch is because the people we cheer for follow one piece of evidence that leads to another piece of evidence that finally adds up to solving the case. Right now Arrow is spinning its wheels which could work if there was a sense of impending doom because the evidence isn't there and bad things will happen. But since we don't have that the murder mystery is just a dead end storyline until the writers decide to pick it up again. I understand that they think they are setting things in motion but like I've said before it's 2b all over again. The mile markers are filler episodes and not advancing the plot while the writers only have eyes for the finish line.  I can't figure out why I should I care about the straw man killers they keep setting up and knocking down. Give me clues to follow so I can play along at home or don't do these kinds of storylines.

[Genki]

Archer of unusual height...someone kneeling???

[TanyaKay]

I just want to watch Felicity and Thea speed date...

 

I want that too ... and then I want them to discuss all the men they would date afterwards.

I know it sounds a lot like Sex and the City but hey, Arrow could do with some girl bonding time and a few laughs.

 

I want more Thea/Felicity, Diggle/Felicity and Diggle/Thea scenes. Make it happen Show!

[foreverevolving]

Okay i hope this is still okay to post (seriously how many spoilers and speculation threads do we need? don't know about you but i'm getting confused- too many to have time to keep track of)

 

So greenarrow TV posted caps from a preview (i assume we'll get to see tomorrow or on Wednesday) and something in the first one caught my attention- Bottom right of the pic...

 

That looks like Oliver! but I can't read the article title since it's soo blurry. so does this mean Cupid knows who the Arrow is?

Edited November 18, 2014 by foreverevolving

[wonderwall]

Well she's been stalking him without him being any wiser, so I think it's safe to assume that it's Oliver? Plus I think it's Cupid and Oliver (not dressed as the Arrow) making out in the foundry in the promo. 

Edited November 18, 2014 by wonderwall

[looptab]

I thought it was the guy who provides them the costumes and arrows etc (as seen in the comics). :)

[foreverevolving]

Well she's been stalking him without him being any wiser, so I think it's safe to assume that it's Oliver? Plus I think it's Cupid and Oliver (not dressed as the Arrow) making out in the foundry in the promo. 

 

She wasn't making out with Oliver. it was someone else.

 

Anyway, her knowing who Arrow is makes this all ball game a hell of alot more dangerous for Oliver loved ones.

 

Also, bat-shit crazy stalker chick (who is probably a mere police officer) managed to put 1+1 on Oliver being The Arrow while Laurel (who went to law school and is a lawyer) had to be told, by Slade, about the secret.... (contrive plot device # ummmm.. yea I lost count- to make prop Laurel).

Edited November 18, 2014 by foreverevolving

[SmallScreenDiva]

Well she's been stalking him without him being any wiser, so I think it's safe to assume that it's Oliver? Plus I think it's Cupid and Oliver (not dressed as the Arrow) making out in the foundry in the promo. 

 

Nah, the guy she's straddling is bearded and kinda balding. I'm posting a screen cap in Spoilers only thread.

[Danny Franks]

Not the rest of her life, just longer than five weeks.  Show me that she does have feelings for Oliver and it wasn't just a crush.

 

 I don't want to see Felicity waking up in Ray's bed as if who she's with doesn't matter.  That's reserved for pre-island Oliver.

 

Well so far, have they actually stated that Felicity's feelings are any stronger than a crush? It was all subtext in season 2, and I get the feeling that if she'd actually confessed to more in season 3, it would have been discussed in depth on this forum. So maybe that's all it is, and that's why she can move onto the Better, Improved, Oliver Queen 2.0, Now Without Angst! version within two months of Oliver renewing his martyr complex.

 

From what I can tell, Felicity went from never believing Oliver was interested to 'moving on' in the space of two episodes (season 2 finale and season 3 opener). But it's okay, because some tie in comic books that about 10,000 people read, showed her feelings in more depth. Or did they? I have no idea. But the fact remains that, on screen, she gave up on Oliver quicker than fucking Laurel did in the pilot episode. Quicker than Oliver gave up on Helena. But that's what happens when you write to plot and not to character.

[apinknightmare]

We don't know what Felicity's feelings are, because she hasn't ever told Oliver what they are. And why would she?

 

So far, he's: given her a fake "i love you" to trick Slade; flirted with her alllll summer and backed off immediately after he got the balls to ask her out; told her "maybe" he was wrong about being able to be with someone he could really care about; told her he was scared of what would happen if he allowed himself to be Oliver Queen; told her "maybe" at some point it could happen, but definitely not now; told her he loved her by refusing to tell her he didn't love her. He hasn't even given her a clear indication of his feelings. Why on earth would she lay her heart on the line to him at this point? Everything about Oliver screams WARNING SIGN!!!

 

What exactly is she supposed to fight for? Oliver never once gave her any indication of what exactly he was wanting from her - he's been wishy-washy from the start. She's right to guard her heart - it isn't safe for him to have it right now. They are writing her 100% to character as far as I'm concerned - moving on is exactly what I would expect from the Felicity I've grown to love. We know she has abandonment issues - she told Oliver as much last season. To me, I think it's powerful stuff that this woman can trust Oliver with her life, but not her heart. If that's writing her out of character, then I hope they keep doing it. Felicity pursuing him after he's given her every single indication that he's not serious about her is absolutely pathetic.

Edited November 18, 2014 by apinknightmare

[catrox14]

It wasn't a fake ILY though. He didn't renege when she gave him the chance on the island and then he said "don't ask me to tell you I don't love you." in The Calm. seems to me that he loves her.

[apinknightmare]

It wasn't a fake ILY though. He didn't renege when she gave him the chance on the island and then he said "don't ask me to tell you I don't love you." in The Calm. seems to me that he loves her.

Right, but how is she to know that? He didn't take it back, but he still hasn't done anything with it. He still hasn't said it. He's given her maybes and backwards confessions, nothing absolute. We know he loves her-we were privy to his conversation with Diggle. But to her, he's given every indication that he's not ready to commit. Why is she expected to put herself out there when he won't? She fights for this man in every other aspect of their life together because she knows he has his insecurities. Is she not allowed to have hers? Is she not allowed to guard her heart when she has every reason to believe he'll break it? Should we not expect him to fight for her in the one area she seems to be tentative and unsure about?

[Password]

Hmm Felicity still has no concrete "let's really make a go of this" from Oliver. We as the audience can see him making progress, but all she can see is dangling maybes. It's not like he's telling her he's sorry and wants to really try again and she's going "nope don't wanna hear it". If he did even then, she'd have reason to think he's playing with her feelings.

Oliver has some real ground to make up in my mind and in her eyes. It's not so much that she's moving on, it's whom she's moving on WITH that makes me go agh.

[chaos is welcome]

Right, but how is she to know that? He didn't take it back, but he still hasn't done anything with it. He still hasn't said it. He's given her maybes and backwards confessions, nothing absolute. We know he loves her-we were privy to his conversation with Diggle. But to her, he's given every indication that he's not ready to commit. Why is she expected to put herself out there when he won't? She fights for this man in every other aspect of their life together because she knows he has his insecurities. Is she not allowed to have hers? Is she not allowed to guard her heart when she has every reason to believe he'll break it? Should we not expect him to fight for her in the one area she seems to be tentative and unsure about?

Felicity's abandonment issues and the fact that we (pretty much) know Oliver is going to leave again is what is really killing me with this show, and combined with everything else is what is making my desire to no longer watch stronger and stronger.

We get you're not going to lose me, the lunge and then 9eps after you are not gonna lose me we have nearly suicidal Oliver. Then we get fake ily, ily in reverse, shut down on emotional anything because Sara is dead, but I-am-still-going-to-drive-home-that-I-care-about-you-but-we-can't-be-together/I can't even touch you anymore. I suspect in 9,felicity will be the one to say she loves him and he's going to leave anyway.

I don't know where she's supposed to go from that. How is she supposed to trust him with her heart? The next time he says "maybe we can be together"., her response should absolutely be "until the next bad thing happens"....it's over the top painful, and I hate that it's what felicity is getting because she deserves so much more.

The fact that not only her father left, but cooper faked his own death....It's no wonder at all she isn't expecting anything from Oliver. It's flat out depressing.

[Sunshine]

Well so far, have they actually stated that Felicity's feelings are any stronger than a crush? It was all subtext in season 2, and I get the feeling that if she'd actually confessed to more in season 3, it would have been discussed in depth on this forum. So maybe that's all it is, and that's why she can move onto the Better, Improved, Oliver Queen 2.0, Now Without Angst! version within two months of Oliver renewing his martyr complex.

 

From what I can tell, Felicity went from never believing Oliver was interested to 'moving on' in the space of two episodes (season 2 finale and season 3 opener). But it's okay, because some tie in comic books that about 10,000 people read, showed her feelings in more depth. Or did they? I have no idea. But the fact remains that, on screen, she gave up on Oliver quicker than fucking Laurel did in the pilot episode. Quicker than Oliver gave up on Helena. But that's what happens when you write to plot and not to character.

She admitted to being in love with Oliver to Barry on Flash 1.04.  I do get what you are saying though.

Edited November 18, 2014 by Sunshine

[writersblock51]

Felicity is a fan favorite for many reasons, not the least of which is that she's pretty easy to understand (from a fan perspective) and even easy to relate to.  I think it's been very deliberate on the show's part that she has NEVER told Oliver how she feels about him in words - not from the deep romantic side of her.  She's told him that she believes in him, trusts him and 'is there' for him (he's not alone). I think she was able to tell him all of those very important aspects, with complete sincerity and conviction because she knew that

 

1) he needed to hear them at that point in time (she does know him sooooooooooooo well)

2) he could likely handle what she was telling him

 

I think she's been so careful about telling him MORE about her feelings because the same very 2 reasons AREN'T true, in her opinion:

1) he's not ready to hear what she wants to say

2) he probably can't handle what she wants to tell him

 

Furthermore, she is trying to protect the one part of herself that he can't - and that he is most likely to damage if she lets him. 

 

What's amazing about their relationship now and, I hope, going forward in the episodes to come, is that they do not lie to each other. They don't disclose everything, obviously, but they are very honest.  The bittersweet and frustrating part, to me (and possibly others here), is that they hold back when perhaps they need to be just a teensy bit braver. 

Oliver should have - and should soon - tell Felicity that he doesn't want to die alone.  He told Diggle, which is great because Diggle needs to know this, too.  But why not tell Felicity?  Why didn't he tell her THAT instead of his 'you know how I feel about her' thing (always the 3rd person with this guy...).  When she shut him down, an I believe that was more to protect herself than to hurt him, I wasn't surprised at all.  She doesn't know that he's changed his mind.

 

And she hasn't told Oliver that she came to an understanding with Barry.  In her discussion with Barry on the train, i think she's actually VERY unaware of how much Oliver loves her and for how long he has already.  She was describing herself and Barry but, unbeknownst to her, she was also describing Oliver.  And her unawareness about that AND his change of heart is what is, I believe, driving her now in terms of how she reacts to Ray.

 

That being said, if Felicity was a friend of mine or a sister or a daughter, I'd mention (quietly, once) to have fun but be careful with the Rebound Guy. Unless he knows he's the Rebound Guy, things could get dicey.

[tv echo]

As I posted before, I'm also leaning toward Thea being Sara's killer.  After Sara hugged Laurel and Laurel left her alone on the roof, Sara put her mask back on and was walking away when she was shot with the arrows.  Why have her put her mask back on at that particular point?  She's still on the roof alone.  it could be so that the mask can fall off dramatically when Sara tumbles off the roof.  Or it could be so that the killer doesn't know the masked blonde woman is Sara.  Sara recognizes the killer and is not threatened.  The killer doesn't recognize Sara with the mask on.  Again as I posted before, the motive could be tied to some BS story fed to Thea by Malcolm, in order to get Sara off his back (since she was in the city to track him for the LOA).

 

This would also add to Oliver's guilt.  If he had confided in Thea last season that he was the Arrow and brought her into the Arrowcave, then Thea would've been let in on Sara being the Canary as well.

Edited November 18, 2014 by tv echo

[apinknightmare]

But the killer (or someone standing with the killer) actually said her name. So the only way the killer didn't know it was Sara is if they were wearing earplugs while the other person spoke (if there were two people on that roof) or were under some kind of mind control.

Edited November 18, 2014 by apinknightmare

[Starfish35]

Yeah, Sara's name being called before she was killed makes it, well not impossible I suppose, but unlikely, that she was killed by someone who didn't know who she was. Which to me rules Thea out.

But thinking back to the theory that Kordi posted, it occurred to me this morning....what if this scenario is accurate, except that it's Nyssa that Thea kills, not Sara? Nyssa comes after Malcolm again, Thea kills her, Ra's demands retribution in the form of Thea's death, Oliver sacrifices himself for her. It doesn't solve the "who killed Sara?" question (all things considered, I'm going to place my bets on Waller being behind that), but it might work otherwise.

Edited November 18, 2014 by Starfish35

[tv echo]

You're right - I watched the scene again and the killer did say her name.  I guess that rules out Thea for me.  I'm back to Nyssa as the killer (on orders from Ra's? for Sara's betrayal?).  I don't think it's Malcolm because Sara says "What are you doing here?"  Since Sara was in the city to track down Malcolm, she wouldn't have asked that of him.

 

If Nyssa is Sara's killer, then it would also work for why Oliver goes to Ra's and demands trial by combat.  The flashback to little Nyssa might also be a clarification for Nyssa's motive.

Edited November 18, 2014 by tv echo

[dtissagirl]

It's all so tropey, it makes my teeth hurt. Oliver had two moments of truth with Diggle -- the "you love her" in 301 and the "I don't wanna die dowm here" in 302 -- there are directly related to Felicity, but she doesn't know about any of that. Actually, there's the third moment, when Oliver was looking at Felicity with Lyla and the baby, and it was written on his forehead that all he wants is a life and family and babies with her. Dude's not very complex in his dreams for the future, you know?

But Felicity really has absolutely no idea about any of that, and I don't know, maybe this is a deliberate attempt to make the audience go Team Oliver! re: his love life for the first time in history. This is the first romantic interest he's ever had that the majority of the audience has actively been rooting for. But maybe it is just them using the typical stopgaps to romance that miscommunication and hidden truths bring.

I do worry a little about audience perception of Felicity, because I'm already seeing it on this very forum -- she didn't love him after all, she might come off selfish, etc. My worry is different: that the narrative is using Felicity as Oliver's prize at the end of his growing pains. "Winning her over" from another dude has prize trope written all over it. I really have very little interest in dick measuring storylines, and hope the show steer away from that, PLEASE. So far I've actually been really proud of how Felicity has been dealing with all of this, and if there's a single thing I still trust these writers about, it's HOW they write Felicitiy. But I worry anyway.

And I agree that they're keeping Felicity's "I love you" for an important moment. They're giving saying the words some power here -- from the fake ILY to Oliver saying it in reverse, so that part makes sense to me. I'm actually hoping she DOESN'T say it in 309, because that will most likely be an angsty ILY, and I sorta wish they save it for a time when it's a romance narrative win, and not a loss, as all of Oliver's ILY sorta have been.

[KirkB]

While the killer could still be Thea for all I know, it doesn't make sense to me. Thea seemed pretty happy in Corto Maltese. She also seemed pretty adamant at the time about not wanting to come back to Starling. And even if she is in a place where she could so callously kill someone, I have a hard time imagining she would do it just because Malcolm asked her to. Plus, the "Hello Sara" would mean she was knowingly and willingly killing her brother's supposedly dead ex-girlfriend. And to top it all off there is Malcolm himself, who is trying to hide from the LoA and while he may be bat shit crazy I'm not sure even he would take the life, or arrange to take the life, of the beloved of Ra's al Ghul's daughter. It's not as bad as trying to kill Nyssa herself but it's close.

 

Nyssa being the killer is slightly more reasonable, except in the way it's being done. I could easily, VERY easily in fact, see Ra's demanding Nyssa kill Sara to get rid of Sara for 'reasons' and/or to punish Nyssa or teach her a lesson. That's how he works. And while Nyssa might have to force herself to do it because disobeying her father is potentially worse, there is no reason for her to then turn around, show up in the Arrowcave, pretend to be surprised and check to see if they had any idea who killed Sara, then go off blood rage on Malcolm. She could go after Malcolm for the League without Oliver even knowing about it. To me the only way Nyssa works as a viable killer is if she never cared about Sara at all. Though as I type this I could see Nyssa and Sara coming up with a plan to fake her death to get her away from the League, but that doesn't really fit the facts as we know them.

 

As for Oliver and Felicity, as you might have noticed I don't comment on this very much. That's mainly because whether they get together or not isn't a major factor for me in watching the show. But I've been reading everyone's posts and I'm led to wonder. It seems to me Oliver has made it pretty clear (from Felicity's perspective at least) that whether or not he has feelings for her, he is not in a place where he is willing or able to act on them right now. They are not together. They have, in fact, never been together in any real sense. Felicity is under no obligation to sit around and pine for Oliver. She's not cheating on him or betraying him in any way if she decides to go out with Ray, or Roy, or even freaking Nyssa. If Ray shows an interest in her and she finds him attractive, why not? Oliver is free to hit on every woman who catches his eye. Isn't the same true of Felicity? I like Felicity and I'd rather see her in happy scenes with Ray than sitting around the cave staring at Oliver's empty Arrow case. For you big Olicity fans they're probably going to be together eventually. Until then wouldn't you rather watch her having a good time instead of constantly being put through the ringer by Oliver?

[dtissagirl]

The only way Thea works as the killer is if Malcolm turned her into a brainwashed sleeper agent ninja. That knew she was killing Sara while she was doing it ["Hello, Sara" -- either said by herself, or by Malcolm standing right next to her], but that was mojo-ed back into sleeper mode afterwards, so she doesn't remember anything about it.

 

It's super duper farfetched, but I just can't rule it out completely, because Malcolm is the one character on this show that I would believe would come up with a whacky plan like that to screw with Oliver's head, just because he can.

 

I'm still, however, clinging to my theory that Thea is the shocking new suspect in 309, because who else would be shocking? Suspect =/= actual killer anyway. Now watch new spoilers say I'm wrong. :)

Edited November 18, 2014 by dancingnancy

[Morrigan2575]

I wouldn't be shocked to find out that Thea or hell even Felicity is the "shocking" new suspect...I think they're going to point a finger at everyone and by the time the reveal is made no one will give a crap.

 

I don't think it's Thea or Malcolm, I'm actually worried that it might turn out to by Sin (based on SA's reaction on AAS).  Malcolm and Thea are unlikely because this show won't throw away their toy (Malcolm/Barrowman) and I since they won't make Malcolm Evol I can't see them having Thea/Speedy turning on Oliver either.  

[quarks]

On what I fully admit is a completely shallow note, I am all for Felicity hooking up with Nyssa. Make this happen, show!

 

Meanwhile, here's my list of the Sara Murder Suspects for this week:

 

Still looking kinda guilty, dudes:

 

1. Ra's Al Ghul. For: motive, bow, the fact that he runs a group that calls themselves the League of Assassins, not the League of Cupcake Bakers. Against: the new forensic evidence, although since previous episodes did tell us, in script, that Felicity's forte is not forensic evidence, I'm willing to handwave that one.

2. Another still to be named League of Assassins person working under Ra's Al Ghul, or just hoping to free Nyssa up for sexy times. I could buy that.  

3. Helena. For: according to the 2.5 comics, she's no longer in jail. She uses a bow and probably could throw arrows into someone; fits the new forensic clues. Against: Motive? What motive? Unless she just wants to make Oliver more miserable.  Go, Helena, go!

4. Cupid. For: Major motive, plus, uses a bow and arrow, probably fits the new forensic evidence. Against: if the past few episodes have set any kind of pattern, she'll be cleared by the end of tomorrow's episode.  

5. Thea. For: Uses a bow, definitely mind-wiped by Malcolm and general trauma, fits the new forensic evidence, would definitely be a shocking game changer for the show.  Against: No indication (yet) that she was in Starling City at the time.

6. Shado. For: Uses a bow, has an actual motive. Against: The whole dead thing, though to be fair, it's not like death has stopped other people on this show.

7. Katana. For: Wants to make Oliver totally miserable. Against: We have no idea if she's alive and no idea what her actual weapon is, although so far that seems to be melting wax and annoyed looks.

8. ARGUS. For: shaping up to be the actual big bad of the season. Against: ARGUS seems to use guns and rocket launchers.

9. Laurel. For: Well, why not? Ok, yes, she's not actually good with the bow. But OTHERWISE....

10. The Brother Blood people. For: They are in the 2.5 comics, which suggests that they might return to the show.  And they have motive.  Against: We've never seen any indication that they use bows/arrows. 

11. Tommy.  For: Fans say it could be Tommy; also, Tommy was brought back in the first Hunt for Sara's Killer in a very lethargic sort of way episode. Against: the whole dead thing, although see Shado above. 

12. The mother of Oliver's kid. For: It's a plot based reason to get her back into this show.  Against: the complete lack of evidence that she a) knows Sara, b) can shoot a bow, c) has any reason to climb up on roofs and shoot random assassins even if they are the ex-girlfriends of her ex-boyfriends. Then again, this show.

13. Harrison Wells. For: It seems to be his sort of thing. Against: He's on the other show, and seems to prefer knives to arrows. Also, no indication that he and Sara ever met.

14. CW executives. For: The script. Against: Nothing. I found the murderers, everyone!

 

Probably cleared, but this show:

 

1. Roy, because there's no real reason why he couldn't be remembering killing cops AND killing Sara.

2. Malcolm, because he's Malcolm.

3. The boring archer dude in the second episode.

4. The new Vertigo guy because he was kinda tied up at the time.

 

Probably innocent:

 

1. Slade: he has motive, but doesn't use a bow; also, on a meta level there's been no indication that he's back on Arrow this season and every indication that he's been busy with last minute pick-ups and marketing for The Hobbit.

2. Bilbo Baggins, cause he's busy with a dragon. Then again the One Ring can tempt you to do terrible things, so let's not rule him out. Yet.

3. Diggle, cause new baby.

4. Lyla, because although I'm not ruling ARGUS out, I absolutely refuse to believe that any woman would stagger up to a rooftop to shoot another woman right after giving birth.  I'm willing to suspend disbelief a lot for this show, but not that much.

5. Barry and Oliver, because they were talking Deep Hero Stuff. Also both of them have this No Killing thing going on.

6. Felicity, because she was eavesdropping on that conversation and thinking, Threesome me, Heroes, just Threesome me already. Ok, that last bit may not have actually been in the show and may just have been in my head.

7. Ray, who doesn't seem to be using a bow, and also doesn't fit the "short" thing mentioned earlier.

8. Quentin and Dinah. Granted, Dinah is coming back to the show, and possibly could have been affected by the Star Labs explosion and turned evil, but I feel this is a reach.

 

I'm sure I've left several suspects out.

Edited November 18, 2014 by quarks

[Danny Franks]

I do worry a little about audience perception of Felicity, because I'm already seeing it on this very forum -- she didn't love him after all, she might come off selfish, etc. My worry is different: that the narrative is using Felicity as Oliver's prize at the end of his growing pains. "Winning her over" from another dude has prize trope written all over it. I really have very little interest in dick measuring storylines, and hope the show steer away from that, PLEASE. So far I've actually been really proud of how Felicity has been dealing with all of this, and if there's a single thing I still trust these writers about, it's HOW they write Felicitiy. But I worry anyway.

And I agree that they're keeping Felicity's "I love you" for an important moment. They're giving saying the words some power here -- from the fake ILY to Oliver saying it in reverse, so that part makes sense to me. I'm actually hoping she DOESN'T say it in 309, because that will most likely be an angsty ILY, and I sorta wish they save it for a time when it's a romance narrative win, and not a loss, as all of Oliver's ILY sorta have been.

 

It's not my perception of Felicity herself that is altering, because I still feel I know who she was from the first two seasons. It's my perception of the writers that has been pretty irrevocably damaged by their resorting to the lamest of lame, tiredest of tired, tropes. Boy Wins Girl.

 

That's what it boils down to. Felicity becomes 'strong' by never trying to effect any changes to their relationship. Her giving up and moving on is seen both as a source of strength and as a source of self preservation (it can't be both, logically), while her trying to convince Oliver he's wrong to say no is weak, but brave (see what I mean?). It's an easy out for the writers to give her abandonment issues, and I'm pretty sure they already had this trope in mind when they grafted those onto her character last season. Abandonment issues means instant excuse for her doing nothing. Just like Oliver has his instant excuse of 'I'm a vigilante so I can't be happy' 

 

It's so, so played out, and I feel like I'm already starting to repeat conversations I've had about other shows. That's how often this stupid trope is used in mainstream television. And because it's so played out, people can already predict the path it's going to take, and I get the impression many are already weary of it, and of the roles both Felicity and Oliver will play in it. They won't do anything at all that's original, as far as I can tell. So what's the point of doing it at all? It just becomes a sort of glorified pantomime, which everyone has seen before.

 

So Felicity becomes the prize to be won, and part of Oliver's gauntlet to get to her is the new, Oliver Queen 2.0 boyfriend. How this makes Felicity strong, I have absolutely no idea. She has no agency, because she will dangle out of reach until Oliver levels up enough to pluck her. Woo. Epic.

[Carrie Ann]

 

Interview with Greg Berlanti about The Flash

 

 

Wait, they don't even know - at this point - if there will be more crossovers or not?  Shouldn't the whole season for both shows be pretty much planned out already?

 

If I had to bet, I'd say that they won't have a big event crossover again this season, but maybe one or two characters will go to the other show. That requires less coordination of storylines and schedules. Unless they do a big blowout finale event.

Edited November 18, 2014 by Carrie Ann

[Velocity23]

 

: Are Thea and Roy going to get back together on Arrow this season?

Doesn't sound like we'll see these two crazy, butt-kicking kids are reuniting anytime soon, and it's all thanks to one Carrie Diaries stud. Austin Butler is about to make his debut on the CW superhero drama as Chase, a DJ who catches Thea's eye. And their first interaction? "It's incendiary!" executive producer Marc Guggenheim says with a laugh. "Austin Butler plays Chase and he has incredible onscreen chemistry with Willa Holland. Expect some sparks to fly between the two of them."

Ahhh the incredible chemistry speech again.

Edited November 18, 2014 by Velocity23

[looptab]

LOL he just says the same things over and over again, just changing the names hahaha

[SonofaBiscuit]

And their first interaction? "It's incendiary!" executive producer Marc Guggenheim says with a laugh.

 

 

Haha.  Is he an arsonist or something? 

[looptab]

Given how delighted they all were about the Olicity date being "explosive", it's possible that he means that literally :D

[chaos is welcome]

Ohhh, Cupid does make something go boom hahahahahaha

[KirkB]

Thea's new flame will probably turn out to be Firefly.

[Orion]

Interesting article that talks about Arrow messing up the Ray Palmer character and the Ralicity ship from the start. It points out a few of things that people here are talking about here.  (It doesn't contain spoilers but does talk about the future relationship between Ray and Felicity so I'm only putting it here and not in the spoiler thread. Hope that is right?)

 

Quite frankly, Arrow has already dug itself in a hole when it comes to Ray and his potential relationship with Felicity, and not just because it is meant to pass time until Oliver finally comes to his senses. Because Ray's lack of boundaries has been painted as comical at best, and creepy at worse, there's really no way for anyone to buy that Felicity would seriously fall for him someday. As such, now Arrow has to rush to get her to that point in this week's episode and the next few after that, whether it really makes sense or not.

 

 

http://www.themovienetwork.com/article/arrow-now-rushing-overcome-ray-palmers-awkward-first-impression

 

I think this person gets close to explaining what happened with that relationship. The writers didn't want to make Ray/Felicity too perfect because they already got burned by a fandom running from their OTP ship like the thing was on fire with Laurel and Oliver so they had to make Ray a flawed character and in doing so went to far and made him creepy.

 

With how much Arrow asks me to handwave and fanwank I'm willing to over look Ray's introduction because honestly, there is just not a lot I can even enjoy this season and I'll be out after 3X09 so I'm determined to get every drop of Felicity's story before Arrow forces me to walk away.

Edited November 18, 2014 by Orion

[writersblock51]

I agree with the author - this was going to be a tricky scenario to set up and make it fly. The show has a horrible record, IMO, of writing relationships that haven't developed organically.

[Orion]

I agree with the author - this was going to be a tricky scenario to set up and make it fly. The show has a horrible record, IMO, of writing relationships that haven't developed organically.

 

ITA and the more the writers scream, "look, look this couple has amazing chemistry and this couple does to and this couple. Look at it!! See, we know how to write a romance." the more convinced I become that they legitimately have no idea what people are responding to with Oliver and Felicity. Which doesn't really give me hope moving forward.

[writersblock51]

I agree with that also - they don't seem to understand WHY people like Oliver and Felicity together (and as individuals on a team with Diggle) only that they DO.

 

Which invites all sorts of awkward and sometimes horrible attempts to recreate the magic by ill advised plots, relationships and - worse - breaking the team up for reasons.

 

So frustrating for what's happened and what's coming up.

[TanyaKay]

Words Arrow producers should NEVER use: chemistry, soul mates, and star crossed lovers.

Thank you.

[ostentatious]

If I thought Ray was actually supposed to be a contender for *real* - like from the audience's perspective, not just from the character's perspective - then I would need to really think about him. Think about whether or not I personally would read his behavior as healthy and acceptable IRL, no matter what I think the writers *want* me to think. I would be bothered and be like, they think they're showing me cute and funny, but they're really showing me creepy and disturbing.

 

Since I don't, I'm perfectly willing to see Ray and his behavior the way I think they intend me to see him. I just don't think I'm supposed to be bothered by any of the things he's done, and since he isn't there to actually be a viable love interest for Felicity, I don't mind him at all. I know that Felicity and Oliver and Ray all think he's a contender, but I know he isn't, so it's fine.

[blixie]

 

Since I don't, I'm perfectly willing to see Ray and his behavior the way I think they intend me to see him. I just don't think I'm supposed to be bothered by any of the things he's done, and since he isn't there to actually be a viable love interest for Felicity, I don't mind him at all. I know that Felicity and Oliver and Ray all think he's a contender, but I know he isn't, so it's fine.

 

Right, this is where I've been since I first heard about him, and yeah I think the writing choices of having her call him a stalker are typically bizarre and dumb and unhelpful, but I don't read him as legitimately creepy in anyway at all. I enjoy the hell out of him in fact, and I look forward to Felicity having someone she can rely on to vent to outside the lair whether that is full blown romance or light flirtations and dating, or mere collegial friendship.

 

I wish I could work up the energy to speculate about who killed Sara, beyond my personal choice of Tommy, because I like Tommy and want him back, and would love to have him back even as a villain. But I really just can't be assed to figure out who it is, and as has been said, there is no urgency, because there are no stakes. The only actual STAKE is Laurel's Soul/search for identity, something I could not give less of a crap about. I'm not excited about Digg talking her off a moral cliff because I'd prefer she jump off a literal one or figuratively in a go evil sense. Why must it be Oliver going away for two episodes with LoA, makes way more sense for it be Laurel, and for it to be FOREVER. Heh.

Edited November 18, 2014 by blixie

[statsgirl]

 

Nevertheless, Arrow is perhaps no different from any other show struggling to kill time and string shippers along until it finally gives them what they want, if it ever does.

 

Ouch.  I love what a big Felicity fan Robert Doughtery is.  And he often has very good points with it, as in his review of ep 5 

Yet while Felicity is finding her own light again, an Oliver without Felicity around wound up getting the League of Assassins and Ra's and Nyssa al Ghul to declare war on him

 

 I think much of the problem with Ray is that they wanted him to be like Oliver, billionaire CEO, charming, gorgeous, but they also wanted him to be funny, given all the remarks about how he's like Cary Grant.  They got carried away with the last part. While it was very funny in the scene where he barges into Felicity's house, it was also way crossing boundaries.

 

I wish MG would stop talking about people's incredible chemistry (now Thea with new guy) and just let us decide for ourselves if it's there or not. At this point, telling me a couple has incredible chemistry is a turn-off.

 

 

That being said, if Felicity was a friend of mine or a sister or a daughter, I'd mention (quietly, once) to have fun but be careful with the Rebound Guy. Unless he knows he's the Rebound Guy, things could get dicey.

 

Stalker!!

I think they're going to point a finger at everyone and by the time the reveal is made no one will give a crap.

 

I'm there already.

 

Well so far, have they actually stated that Felicity's feelings are any stronger than a crush?

Greg Berlanti said at SDCC that if you look at the scene in Lian Yu and how they are looking at each other "there's love there".  Yeah, we have to get it from an EP interview.

[Danny Franks]

 

Greg Berlanti said at SDCC that if you look at the scene in Lian Yu and how they are looking at each other "there's love there".  Yeah, we have to get it from an EP interview.

 

Hey, remember when Castle used to deliver exposition and character development via creator interviews and tweets? Good times. You've got to love it when you only get a clear picture from checking out all the social media that's tangentially related to the show.

[apinknightmare]

To be fair, he said that before the season even started. There's plenty in this season's narrative for us to know how Oliver feels, and *I* think there's enough for us to know how Felicity feels and why she's not being forthcoming about it.

[SonofaBiscuit]

The Flash gang don't know the identity of The Arrow right?  I guess they find out because the new TV Guide has a photo in it with Cisco, Caitlyn, and Lyla in the Arrow cave with Roy, Diggle, Oliver, and Felicity.

[Carrie Ann]

I'm intrigued by the quoted excerpt you posted:

 

"Felicity asks Caitlin for a favor says Panabaker. That involves running tests on a DNA sample linked to the arrow that killed Oliver’s fellow crime fighter Canary/Sara Lance"

"Something significant happens in the middle of the Arrow Episode to someone we care about, Guggenheim teases.."

"The discovery of a vital piece of evidence in Sara’s death is set to impact everyone on the canvas and could inform any future joint adventures. ‘Both shows are changed as a result of the crossover’ Guggenheim says. ‘There will be long lasting repercussions"

-TV Guide crossover issue 11/24

 

That last part especially. I'm struggling to understand how the evidence in Sara's death would impact the Flash Mob, and future joint adventures. Hmmm....

 

Also I find it funny that in "Guilty," Felicity was suddenly able to perform DNA tests and other bloodwork, but now she needs to call Caitlin for that kind of thing again. C'mon writers. It's not that hard to say Felicity has a contact at a lab who does these things for her, no questions asked. She doesn't need to be able to do everything science-y on the show.

Edited November 18, 2014 by Carrie Ann

[statsgirl]

Felicity said that the test she performed on the sample from the arrows that killed Sara wrt Roy's blood was "inconclusive".  Consider me thrilled if the EPs are actually going to let someone who knows CSI stuff and bloodwork look at the evidence.

 

 

"Something significant happens in the middle of the Arrow Episode to someone we care about, Guggenheim teases.."

Someone I care about, Marc? Or someone you care about?

[wingster55]

^ I have a different problem with it...they're definitely painting it as Felicity and Caitlin being the brains of their respective teams...except Barry and Cisco are also really smart...

[apinknightmare]

^ yeah, there's way too many smart, competent women on TV. When will the men get their due?!

[writersblock51]

So my guess is that the DNA will come back showing that the DNA sample is connected to Oliver.  Hence... Thea.

 

ETA: Just saw the photo of the lair from the crossover (in the Spoilers ONLY thread).  WAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too many people there.  

Edited November 18, 2014 by writersblock51