Spoiler Discussion Thread

[tv echo]

Regarding Sara and Tommy each returning in a way we don't expect - let me guess...

 

Laurel gets her very own "Three Ghosts" holiday special, and two of her ghosts are Sara and Tommy.  Sara gives her blessing for Laurel to assume her Canary identity.  Tommy gives his blessing for Laurel to be with Oliver.  Then in January, Laurel dons the BC costume with no regrets and no guilt (btw, what's with all the buckles?).

 

Oh - and Laurel gets a costume after six months, but Diggle still doesn't have a costume after three and a half years.  I'm not talking about a hooded archer costume, but something suited to his military background (more fitted than what he has been wearing on their field missions). 

Edited November 13, 2014 by tv echo

[apinknightmare]

Regarding Sara and Tommy each returning in a way we don't expect - let me guess...

 

Laurel gets her very own "Three Ghosts" holiday special, and two of her ghosts are Sara and Tommy.  Sara gives her blessing for Laurel to assume her Canary identity.  Tommy gives his blessing for Laurel to be with Oliver.  Then in January, Laurel dons the BC costume with no regrets and no guilt (btw, what's with all the buckles?).

 

Ew, ew, ew. I bet you're right - although, no, Tommy. Use your ghost words for something that's actually worth while.

[Ariah]

Hey, in each season we had Oliver on the brink of death, right? Maybe this time he sees Sara when he's flatlining shirtless somewhere.

[Carrie Ann]

Those post-hiatus episodes without Oliver in the present day may be the first ones I actually skip. How do they think this is a good idea?

[KirkB]

Without present day Oliver maybe. They have tons of flashbacks. I doubt you'd ever see an episode without Amell somewhere on screen.

[tv echo]

I find MG's answer (that they've known who Felicity's dad is for over two years) hard to believe...

IGN: I have to ask about Felicity’s dad because we got to know a lot about Felicity’s past last week, but you left that dangling out there.

Guggenheim: We’re still withholding! I mean, we’ve known, I’ve said in numerous interviews, we’ve known Felicity’s backstory for over two years now. And that includes who her dad is and, just like with meeting her mom, we’re just waiting for the absolute right time to meet her dad. And when it happens, hopefully like with episode five and meeting her mom, everyone will feel like the wait was worthwhile.

http://www.ign.com/articles/2014/11/12/arrow-producer-talks-wildcat-ras-al-ghul-the-flash-crossover-and-more?page=2

Edited November 13, 2014 by tv echo

[Pyramid]

I'd like to ask him why episode five in season three was the absolute right time to meet Ma Smoak. Not saying he's wrong, just would like to know the thinking behind it.

[Guest]

Just watched the NZ promo. Cupid looks great. Oliver is being a douchebag about Felicity because what did he expect? She said she wasn't going to wait for him. I can kind of see why he's annoyed at her dating Ray Palmer though. First he's got his family company and now he's got the woman he loves. That's all Oliver's fault but it's a pretty human reaction.

 

I still think this date with Ray is too soon. I'm a little surprised we've not seen any build up to that moment. They've jumped from 305 to a date. I feel like I've missed something. But I'm never going to be convinced by Ray so I'll just shut up now.

 

I know SA said that Cupid is like a conduit to Olicity's relationship just as the villain was in 306 to Roy and Oliver's relationship but I have to say, I don't see Oliver and Felicity ending up closer as a result. I think they're just going to be further away and I am not looking forward to that prospect. This is not what I call a slow burn, MG. This is a mess. Still, gonna wait and see before I make anymore judgments. 

Edited November 13, 2014 by Guest

[Password]

I actually thought this episode would be a beginning to Ray and Felicity because date in ep 7 seemed out of nowhere. I wonder how it will pan out. I guess going on a company date as a pretence is...what is going to happen but still.

Look I don't think Oliver being jealous is a bad thing. It's what he DOES with that jealousy that will determine how I look at it. He's human, and in this case he's lost his company and the woman he loves to the same man. Be jealous. DON'T take it out on Felicity. I don't mind him talking to her about it and questioning it, but leave overreactions at the door. She told you she's not waiting, now here's your evidence. Now do something about it.

[Chaser]

I actually thought we would get a Felicity/Ray scene this episode to lay some groundwork for the date. But it isn't supposed to be a date-date, its a work date. A fancy one, but it is a major company so I get it. Someone pointed out that it looks like Ray was wiping a tear off Felicity during the kiss (her face, placement of his hand). I really hope not: Felicity has cried enough this season, it will probably be about Oliver given the episode focus, it could look like Ray is taking advantage. I'm hoping they just have a nice moment, a nice kiss. Call it good. Part as friends. …. I'm holding on to that so hard LOL.

 

Personally, I have zero issue with Oliver being upset about Palmer. Its Ray Palmer. Guy has your company and may have your girl. I would even understand feeling a bit of betrayal from Felicity, because she chooses to go out with Palmer (again PALMER). Logically, this is happening because he made the choice not to try and he stressed it with the whole dying down here. So while he doesn't have a right to be angry…its an emotional response and those sometimes don't make sense. 

[Password]

Call it good. Part as friends. …. I'm holding on to that so hard LOL.

Keep hope alive!!!!!

[KenyaJ]

Look I don't think Oliver being jealous is a bad thing. It's what he DOES with that jealousy that will determine how I look at it. He's human, and in this case he's lost his company and the woman he loves to the same man. Be jealous. DON'T take it out on Felicity. I don't mind him talking to her about it and questioning it, but leave overreactions at the door. She told you she's not waiting, now here's your evidence. Now do something about it.

 

I would love it if he reacts by telling her he's gotten his head out of his ass and he wants to be with her, but she doesn't trust it and doesn't trust him not to change his mind again as soon as the opportunity presents itself. Then he could realize that his words are worthless and it's gonna take a lot more than that to fix what he broke.

 

But probably he will just sulk and withdraw from her, and won't that be fun?

[Password]

I would pat the writers on the back if they did that. If they want to be predictable, that's their prerogative. But if he does want Felicity, really want her, then he needs to be damn sure of himself before he persues her. "Stop Dangling Maybes" should trend on Twitter next Wednesday.

[looptab]

I just hope they handle this whole jealousy thing well and it won't come off as forced. I've already read people complaining he is acting out of character, it's pandering to shippers etc etc and, really??? After the boxing glove arrow, they call a person acting as a normal person (as normal as Oliver can be) is pandering? Ugh.

[Password]

Hmm no after Oliver's "what about THE BOYFRIEND?" last week, jealousy is definitely in his repertoire. Not to mention Barry-gate. If you don't want to look at it that way that's cool but to me jealousy concerning Felicity and any other romantic interest is canon.

[looptab]

Exactly, it's not like this is the first instance ever! I just hate those sorts of comments.

[apinknightmare]

I just hope they handle this whole jealousy thing well and it won't come off as forced. I've already read people complaining he is acting out of character, it's pandering to shippers etc etc and, really??? After the boxing glove arrow, they call a person acting as a normal person (as normal as Oliver can be) is pandering? Ugh.

 

Anyone who uses the term "pandering to shippers" isn't going to be happy with anything related to Oliver and Felicity, so I just ignore their opinions about behavior right off the bat. These previews are always cut trickily, so who even knows how he's acting? It's not like Oliver hasn't been jealous before, so...that's not OOC. It's a positive thing that he recognizes where his hurt feelings and/or jealousy are coming from (her going to dinner with Ray) rather than just acting like a dick for no good reason. I wonder if this is going to be the episode where we finally get some insight into Felicity's feelings? Or where he flat-out tells her he loves her?

 

I'd prefer if they got everything out in the open. Oliver tells her he loves her, doesn't want to lose her. Felicity telling him she loves him, but what's she supposed to do? He's married to his crusade and she wants to be happy, and she doesn't trust him not to push her away and call things off when things get tough. This gives us a solid foundation, and gives Oliver a starting point with regards to how thoroughly he's messed things up and how far he has to go to fix them. This is a pipe dream, I know, but my preferred way of dealing with the sitch.

Edited November 13, 2014 by apinknightmare

[Sunshine]

Sara's killer...any chance it is Sin? I saw on twitter that SA said Sin would be back. Bex Taylor-Klaus's new show was picked up. Might she have been feeling so upset by Sara abandoning her for her former life that she was more than a little upset?

[Chaser]

I'm betting we get an ILY from Felicity in ep. 9 (based off of the tweet and SA comments).

 

I would really like a conversation where Felicity just lays it out for him.

 

But really, I want to see Oliver handcuffed to railroad tracks. 

[Password]

Mhmm I was also thinking we finally here something from Felicity. @apinknightmare I thoroughly enjoy your hopes and I hope it happens.

[apinknightmare]

I'm betting we get an ILY from Felicity in ep. 9 (based off of the tweet and SA comments).

 

See, I thought this scene would be an emotional goodbye of sorts, since I think it's going to appear that Oliver dies instead of him willingly going with the League (since what would be the point of only having him in flashbacks if we aren't to believe that he's dead in current time)? Isn't ep 9 when AK tweeted that SA and EBR were acting their butts off? Then again, I guess that could be the first time we hear an "I love you" from her. Probably isn't a better time to do it, haha.

[Sunshine]

I wonder if this is going to be the episode where we finally get some insight into Felicity's feelings? Or where he flat-out tells her he loves her?

 

I'd prefer if they got everything out in the open. Oliver tells her he loves her, doesn't want to lose her. Felicity telling him she loves him, but what's she supposed to do? He's married to his crusade and she wants to be happy, and she doesn't trust him not to push her away and call things off when things get tough. This gives us a solid foundation, and gives Oliver a starting point with regards to how thoroughly he's messed things up and how far he has to go to fix them. This is a pipe dream, I know, but my preferred way of dealing with the sitch.

I am thinking if this happens it is in 3.09. AK tweeted about a scene where SA & EBR were acting their butts off. It would make some sense for them to come back together before he goes missing/leaves/whatever.

[Password]

Sigh the deathbed ILY. It happens. Hmph what would annoy me is if Oliver fakes his death and Felicity's in on it and it becomes a "fake" ILY. Shudder!! Or worse, the poor woman is once again a pawn in Oliver's plans and her ILY is real.

[Chaser]

I would rage hardcore if they tried to sell Sin killed Sara. It would be the laziest-must OOC-messed up-shock value writing ever.

[Lisin]

Just popping in to remind everyone to please be respectful of other people's opinions. That includes all fans. Fans of all ships. Fans of no ships. Fans who are happy with the shows course and fans who aren't. Please keep your discussion to the spoilers and not how other people are going to maybe feel about them. Thank you.

 

@Lisin, @MostlyC, @SilverStormm, and

[SonofaBiscuit]

Yeah, I think that Oliver will appear to be dead at the end of episode nine.  'Cause the only way Laurel is suiting up is over his dead body.  People have speculated that maybe Laurel will be the one in charge giving orders if Oliver is missing or dead, but I wonder if Felicity will even bother sticking around if she thinks Oliver is dead.  Maybe she and Diggle will bail and Laurel will be on her own (probably not because the plot dictates that Laurel will need support, so I imagine that Diggle and Felicity are stuck with her).

 

I've seen people speculating that there will be a large time jump between episode nine and ten, and I've seen people here shoot that down since The Flash would have to do a time jump too.  I don't know if the time jump will happen, but I will rage if we have to jump ahead six months or so to accommodate one character's "transformation."

[looptab]

Anyone who uses the term "pandering to shippers" isn't going to be happy with anything related to Oliver and Felicity, 

You are right, there is just no way around it.

 

*I apologize, I didn't mean to be disrespectful in my previous comment. :)

[tv echo]

Well, here's one from EW: https://twitter.com/EW/status/532597654455595008

 

and she's holding the tonfa wrong, I think. I mean it's almost tokushu-mochi, but not quite.

 

And here's the whole pic on instagram: http://instagram.com/p/vT1c8yFS1f/

So I guess they're going to show Laurel learning to use that weapon at some point?  And that she'll become an expert at it in only a few months?

 

I think I've finally figured out why there are so many buckles on Laurel's costume (esp. on her legs), when it would take so long to don the outfit and buckle up.  KC has really skinny legs, so without the buckles, she'd look like a stiff wind could knock her over.  Putting her in thick pants would impede her movement and look unflattering.  By bulking up her legs with those buckles, she looks sturdier and still cool.  Then the rest of the outfit has to have matching buckles or it would look too strange.  Anyway, that's my theory.

Edited November 13, 2014 by tv echo

[Carrie Ann]

I think we could skip ahead six months from Ep 9 to 10. If they combine the usual 5/6 weeks they skip ahead during the winter break AND the 5 months they would usually skip over the summer. Then we wouldn't have a time jump between seasons, if they pick up in S4 immediately after S3 ends.

 

The other issue is The Flash. So if they also skip time over the hiatus, or if we don't have another crossover this season, then it would still work.

[SonofaBiscuit]

I think that we're going to continue to see Laurel fail and be inadequate even after she puts on her BC costume.  The EPs know that they can't just put a costume on her and tada! the power of the magical black leather activates.  I'm pretty sure that they believe that this is Laurel being tested and enduring her own personal island, just like Oliver and Sara did.  Problem is, I think that there's sort of this expectation that when you put the costume on, you're good to go.  We've kind of seen that on this show with Oliver, Sara, and Roy training, becoming badass (less so with Roy), and then putting on the costume.  With Laurel, they're doing it all backwards so I'm not sure if people will buy into it, or if they'll just be left shaking their heads.

[Starfish35]

Replying to TV Echo - I don't know about the garter looking things, but I think the rest of it is simply an homage to various versions of the Black Canary costume. I was looking on Google, and it looks like in some versions BC wears high boots with horizontal stripes. The buckles kind of mimic the stripes, like the laces on Sara's pants were in a fishnet pattern. I also noticed that there are several versions of the costume that zip up to the chin (although there are some that were lower cut like Sara's).

Edited November 13, 2014 by Starfish35

[Ariah]

I just hope (for Katie Cassidy's sake) that Laurel will not become the poster girl for "Don't do this at home, kids! You cannot just cut on your training time! Don't think that a mask and a costume make you an instant hero!"

 

Remember how Kick Ass started?...

[Chaser]

I'm actually wondering how they are going to do the Laurel as Black Canary reveal. Are we going to come back from break to (almost) Ninja Warrior? Or are we going to come back to find Laurel has jumped the gun again and see her fail right off the bat? I think they both are problematic. Ninja Laurel would be unbelievable (and a time jump is a cheap origin story) and I think it would annoy the audience, even the hard core Laurel fans (like how super cute and touchy Oliciity in 3x01 annoyed some hard-core Oliciity fans). If she puts on the costume too early and gets hurt (or hurts other), then there is a very real lack of growth on her part.

 

I thought maybe it would be a fake-out, the whole pretend to be Sara or something but that is clearly an expensive new costume. The costume looks almost military inspired to me. I'm glad they did away with the cleavage. It never made any sense why you would leave your chest bare. 

Edited November 13, 2014 by 10Eleven12

[tv echo]

[dtissagirl]

I just hope (for Katie Cassidy's sake) that Laurel will not become the poster girl for "Don't do this at home, kids! You cannot just cut on your training time! Don't think that a mask and a costume make you an instant hero!"

 

Remember how Kick Ass started?...

 

I would probably be more interested in watching that than Laurel in a straight up hero journey -- if her putting on a suit is to show that not everyone is cut out to be a costumed superhero? That I'd find good story.

 

They've kind of made a point so far that the mask/suit is earned, and they've tied the mask symbolism to having survived a crucible and such. We're not even sure what Laurel's crucible is. The jacket was handed to her, she's usurping her dead sister's codename, she'll suit up when The Arrow is AWOL. So yeah, if she were to prematurely put on the costume and that is the entire point? I would be more prone to pay attention.

Edited November 13, 2014 by dancingnancy

[statsgirl]

I think that we're going to continue to see Laurel fail and be inadequate even after she puts on her BC costume.  The EPs know that they can't just put a costume on her and tada! the power of the magical black leather activates.  I'm pretty sure that they believe that this is Laurel being tested and enduring her own personal island, just like Oliver and Sara did.  Problem is, I think that there's sort of this expectation that when you put the costume on, you're good to go.  We've kind of seen that on this show with Oliver, Sara, and Roy training, becoming badass (less so with Roy), and then putting on the costume.  With Laurel, they're doing it all backwards so I'm not sure if people will buy into it, or if they'll just be left shaking their heads.

My response is also, What's the point?  Laurel prematurely gets the costume but she can't live up to it.  Is she going to be able to later on?  I would care about her as the BC even less than if she did the regular thing of getting good first and then getting the costume.

 

Is she going to be one of those people MG talked about who don't end up as their comic destiny? Then why spend all this time on the show getting her there, time that could have been spent on Roy and Thea who will end up as their comic counterparts (just guessing with Thea but given Malcolm's training her and how good she is already, why wouldn't she?), not to mention Diggle, Felicity and Quentin

 

It's going to cheapen the symbolism of getting a mask if Laurel gets one before she can live up to it, and then doesn't. Or even does but much later..

[SonofaBiscuit]

I just hope (for Katie Cassidy's sake) that Laurel will not become the poster girl for "Don't do this at home, kids! You cannot just cut on your training time! Don't think that a mask and a costume make you an instant hero!"

 

Remember how Kick Ass started?...

 

Kick Ass was exactly what I was thinking of when I was typing my post!  I think that the writers are in a tough spot because if Laurel suits up and is too successful, people will be annoyed by how quickly she's progressed when Oliver had to endure five years of torture and hell.  But if Laurel suits up and is a failure, that's not really going to win her any fans because she's basically doing that now, just without the costume.

 

Sometimes I wonder if they are just stringing KC along letting her believe that she's becoming BC, but then they'll pull a surprise! reveal on her.  Maybe the season ends with Laurel in peril and she just doesn't come back next season (like a Columbus Short Scandal situation).  Or maybe KC thinks life is good and she is becoming BC, but little does she know, the story ends with Laurel realizing that she's not her sister, she's just plain old lawyer Laurel Lance.  That would be so mean, but it sometimes happens.

 

Is she going to be one of those people MG talked about who don't end up as their comic destiny? Then why spend all this time on the show getting her there, time that could have been spent on Roy and Thea who will end up as their comic counterparts (just guessing with Thea but given Malcolm's training her and how good she is already, why wouldn't she?), not to mention Diggle, Felicity and Quentin

 

 

Well, these are the same guys that wasted all of that time on Sara when she just ended up dead, so they do seem to enjoy telling pointless stories. 

Edited November 13, 2014 by SonofaBiscuit

[dtissagirl]

It would be the ultimate fake-out GOTCHA! moment ever, though. And these guys kinda love those. Bigger than Merlyn is alive. Bigger than the [not-at-all] fake I love you.

[statsgirl]

Yeah, MG and AK would like that, getting us all riled up about Laurel becoming Insta Canary only to have her decide at the end of the season that she's not Sara after all.

[Starfish35]

I was more thinking of this.

[apinknightmare]

I have occasionally wondered if she's one of the people who was going "further from their comic counterpart" or whatever it was that AK or MG said at the end of last season with regards to S3. But then I figure that's wishful thinking and too good to be true and I push that thought far, far, far away.

[Artsda]

Yeah, MG and AK would like that, getting us all riled up about Laurel becoming Insta Canary only to have her decide at the end of the season that she's not Sara after all.

If that is the plan, it's a bad one because it's just turning people away and either sending them for the FF button or selective watching of the show. The ratings with no Oliver will be interesting to see how ratings do on that. 

[SonofaBiscuit]

It would be the ultimate fake-out GOTCHA! moment ever, though. And these guys kinda love those. Bigger than Merlyn is alive. Bigger than the [not-at-all] fake I love you.

 

If this is where we're headed, I'm fairly certain that KC doesn't know yet.  I wouldn't want to be the poor bastard that has to endure her wrath when she finds out (if this were to hypothetically happen, of course). 

[Chaser]

I'm curious about that comment. I think the only way it would be about LL as BC is if her arc this year fails dramatically (critics/audience/ratings). Honestly, I don't see that happening. 

 

I do think that would be a really interesting story to tell. I'm not sure who it would work for though without it looking like a major waste of time ( I think it would work for LL, I just don't think they would ever do it).

[patchwork]

I can't see Diggle, Felicity or Roy letting Laurel step into Oliver's boss shoes, they're all more experienced at the vigilante stuff than she is. IMO it'll be something like Buffy's season 6 opener where the gang are fighting demons with varying degrees of success. Felicity will be Willow directing everyone while Diggle is the Buffybot making the underworld believe the Arrow is still alive and kicking ass.  

Edited November 13, 2014 by patchwork

[dtissagirl]

Yeah, I'm trying to apply logic to something that has never ever been logical on this show. Hee.

 

Since MG said that Laurel's journey this season is "am I me or am I my sister?" we gotta assume in the end she's gonna figure out that she's actually her own self, and not Sara, right? Putting on a black leather costume, and a black mask, and a blond wig, and going out vigitante-ing under the name Black Canary is Laurel being Sara.

 

I mean. Who knows, maybe this really is Single White Female Superhero. But considering that the end of the journey most likely has to be Laurel realizing she's gotta do her own thing, this actually looks to me as premature on purpose.

 

But maybe I am deluding myself. Also very possible. :)

Edited November 13, 2014 by dancingnancy

[Lisin]

We're reopening the Spoiler Discussion topic now. The decision to lock it was made after the four of us discussed the repetitive posts. We understand you feel passionate about this show, but posting essentially the same thing over and over is not the purpose of the Spoiler Discussion topic.  Going forward, posts may disappear if the mods judge that a poster or posters are bringing nothing new to the discussion. If you have questions, please PM us.

 

As before, please take the Spoilers themselves to the SPOILERS ONLY topic.Please use (links, pictures and quotes that cover spoilers for upcoming episodes). This thread is for discussion only. Links will be deleted without warning. Thanks!

Edited February 26, 2015 by stacey

[JJ928]

Yeah, I'm trying to apply logic to something that has never ever been logical on this show. Hee.

 

Since MG said that Laurel's journey this season is "am I me or am I my sister?" we gotta assume in the end she's gonna figure out that she's actually her own self, and not Sara, right? Putting on a black leather costume, and a black mask, and a blond wig, and going out vigitante-ing under the name Black Canary is Laurel being Sara.

 

I mean. Who knows, maybe this really is Single White Female Superhero. But considering that the end of the journey most likely has to be Laurel realizing she's gotta do her own thing, this actually looks to me as premature on purpose.

 

But maybe I am deluding myself. Also very possible. :)

 

I was thinking something similar. In the summer Marc said something about not everyone will meet their comic book destiny. At the time I assumed it was Thea, but after Stephen said last night that she wasn't going bad, I wonder if it could be Laurel. If this happens then this insta-canary story line makes sense, if in the end she decides to give it up. Since this is logical it probably won't happen. I've been searching for that interview, I'll post if found.

[dtissagirl]

I'm almost expecting them to announce Helena is coming back in one of the episodes Oliver will be MIA. So Huntress and Black Canary can team up in another installment of The Very Opposite Of The Birds of Prey episode. Helena goading Laurel into suiting up to get justice "outside of the law" [like Laurel said last night] would make complete sense to me. Specially is Oliver is not around to stop them.

[NumberCruncher]

I don't think there's any way that Laurel doesn't end up as her Black Canary identity on this show. It would basically negate everything they've been building (albeit poorly) for 2-1/2 seasons. I think Marc's comment is referring to canon in general rather than any specific character (i.e. not everything storywise is going to stick to how it happens in the comics).