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Morrigan2575

By Morrigan2575
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Carrie Ann
Carrie Ann

Me for all of last summer hiatus and 5A: Me after reading the WM interview from a few weeks back about Felicity's arc giving her a more profound understanding of Oliver: Me after r

BkWurm1
BkWurm1

I tend to think that trying to make KC a place on the show had a ripple effect that did hurt the show pretty badly.  She's what turned Quentin stupid and into a creepy stalker.  So that wipes off the

calliope1975
calliope1975

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Mellowyellow

Mellowyellow

Just now, Trisha said:

I checked his Reddit and Twitter. Unless he posted it somewhere else, it was't him. The Winter girl on Twitter may have been wrong in the past but from what I can she's the only one who spoiled the O/F dialogue from 517. 

ooh can you please report the O/F dialogue for me, pretty please?

I can't find it in this thread or the other one!

dtissagirl

dtissagirl

8 minutes ago, LeighAn said:

If I had to speculate on the writers morivations I wonder if the whole Marvel shows making Aroiw/Flarrow look like a watered down kids show in comparison, and all the critique comparing the two universes, got the writers and their egoes a little bruised and this plot line is a result.

Yeah, this would be my spec as well. And then we can add the whole Felicity and Friends thing last season that also left lots of butthurt in its wake, it totally explains why we're getting a misery porn episode right now, even though it doesn't exactly fit the narrative at this point ["does Oliver like killing" feels like an S2 question, not an S5 question], and that might unintentionally end up retconning 100+ episodes of established motivation for their main character. But it's not like Guggenheim ever cared for that. LOL.

 

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LeighAn

LeighAn

(edited)
13 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

ooh can you please report the O/F dialogue for me, pretty please?

I can't find it in this thread or the other one!

She posted the dialogue from the OF scene last episode. But there's debate over whether she posted it first or if Yonku did.

Im like 85-90% I read that she was among the group on Twitter who claimed they had spoilers for 5x05 that Oliver and Susan will have sex after Oliver walks in on Felicity and Billy kissing and that he does so because he's depressed and drunk and that Susan will leave after episode 7. 

In hindsight I almost prefer their FAKE NEWS over how it actually played out with boring Snoozan being around forever and a half haha.

Edited by LeighAn
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Soulfire

Soulfire

22 minutes ago, Trisha said:

I checked his Reddit and Twitter. Unless he posted it somewhere else, it was't him. The Winter girl on Twitter may have been wrong in the past but from what I can she's the only one who spoiled the O/F dialogue from 517. 

The person from Twitter got the 516 dialogue from Yonkou; he confirmed as much through DM.

Trisha

Trisha

(edited)
27 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

ooh can you please report the O/F dialogue for me, pretty please?

Sorry - I meant 516! She posted dialogue from Oliver's chat with Felicity and from what I can tell Yonkou didn't spoil that scene at all (on his public feeds anyway).  Just saw the note that he might have DM'd her  

The only other spoilers I saw on her feed for this season was something about the key word being 'destruction'.

Edited by Trisha
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Soulfire

Soulfire

4 minutes ago, Trisha said:

Sorry - I meant 516! She posted dialogue from Oliver's chat with Felicity and from what I can tell Yonkou didn't spoil that scene at all. 

She may be wrong about other stuff, but she was right about that. (The only other spoilers I saw on her feed for this season was something about the key word being 'destruction'). 

She got it from Yonkou through DM; he confirmed that.

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LeighAn

LeighAn

One thing I will say in defense of 5x17, is that in terms of "man pain" the way I've always viewed it applying is that for example: male character cheats on his girlfriend or does something despicable or wrong but has a ~super sad past to invalidate his actions. For instance Chuck Bass agrees to let his uncle manipulate his girlfriend into having sex with him in order to get back the hotel his uncle stole from him. But woe is me he only did it because his ~super sad about his mommy abandoning him.

That to me is the definition of man pain in its most negative connotations.

5x17 is the villian of the show emotionally torturing the hero to mental breakdown as part of his diabolical plans to get the hero to hate himself as much as he hates him.

The writers aren't using Olivers pain or man pain to excuse or condone anything yet that we have evidence of.   In terms of Oliver admitting to liking killing, given it seems to be confessed under duress after days of emotional and physical torture I don't think it's suppose to be veiwed as a positive revelation and given Oliver wants to throw in the towel afterwards I can only assume that the writers aren't condoning Olivers man pain or his killing but emphasising that he's wrong.

I just thought I'd clarify while I get the story reasons about Olivers self doubt and loathing and the misery porn arguments and why the writers are using that to be edgy and cool like a Marvel-lite show I don't view Oliver being tortured as simply man pain like those in other social media platforms who jumped to Oliver will enjoy killing his kids, and start masturbating over dead bodies while claiming they are the rational viewers (even while not watching the show).

I actually think 5x17 while repetitive in terms of rehashing self loathing Oliver already has processed before, will probably at least be slightly more intense and have actually emotional stakes in comparison to the long spate of underwhelming meaningless episodes where nothing of consequence happens. 

So I can accept an episode of misery porn provided it's not used to turn Oliver killing happy- which I doubt- and provided I get Olicity back since Oliver is less self loathing man pain guy when with her. 

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Mellowyellow

Mellowyellow

(edited)

Is it the whole "Oliver confesses to liking killing" thing that has everyone bummed?

I'm not bothered by it at all and am still wondering if I'm going to get an Olicity current times development.

I figure 517 is another "very special arrow episode" and will likely revert back to normal/change to something else at some point. I'm more cross at Oliver for asking Felicity to help get Pantry Moth's job back. 

Edited by Mellowyellow
insomniadreams88

insomniadreams88

5 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

Is it the whole "Oliver confesses to liking killing" thing that has everyone bummed?

For me, it's not that spoiler, but that spoiler combined with the interviews that were released. On its own, you can easily say that Oliver's only saying it because of the torture/he thinks it's what Chase wants to hear. With the interviews, I'm questioning what exactly the plan is for the rest of the season and series when it comes to Oliver and (his thoughts on) killing, and if I had more faith in the writers, I might not be? But after some of the questionable writing in the past... 

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apinknightmare

apinknightmare

1 minute ago, insomniadreams88 said:

For me, it's not that spoiler, but that spoiler combined with the interviews that were released. On its own, you can easily say that Oliver's only saying it because of the torture/he thinks it's what Chase wants to hear. With the interviews, I'm questioning what exactly the plan is for the rest of the season and series when it comes to Oliver and (his thoughts on) killing, and if I had more faith in the writers, I might not be? But after some of the questionable writing in the past... 

Combine all that with the fact that the EPs usually sell a show that doesn't wind up making it onscreen it's like, WHAT TO BELIEVE. 

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LeighAn

LeighAn

9 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

Is it the whole "Oliver confesses to liking killing" thing that has everyone bummed?

I'm not bothered by it at all and am still wondering if I'm going to get an Olicity current times development.

I figure 517 is another "very special arrow episode" and will likely revert back to normal/change to something else at some point. I'm more cross at Oliver for asking Felicity to help get Pantry Moth's job back. 

I'm not bothered by the spoiler itself but I do think it was released in a salacious manner meant to cause bother. 

Mainly Im in "okay move it along so I can get to 5x19-5x20 please and thank you" haha while being hopefully optimistic that the episode might be actually compelling for a change after newbieville.

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way2interested

way2interested

Just now, insomniadreams88 said:

For me, it's not that spoiler, but that spoiler combined with the interviews that were released. On its own, you can easily say that Oliver's only saying it because of the torture/he thinks it's what Chase wants to hear. With the interviews, I'm questioning what exactly the plan is for the rest of the season and series when it comes to Oliver and (his thoughts on) killing, and if I had more faith in the writers, I might not be? But after some of the questionable writing in the past... 

SA had that quote on TVInsider where he said that Chase was trying to sell Oliver something though had me at least thinking that SA is portraying it in a way that it's more Oliver's only thinking that after 6 days of torture on top of his deepest fears/insecurities rather than "Oliver's secret is that he wanted to kill this whole time" that the EPs might try to push.

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Mellowyellow

Mellowyellow

I think the EPs are really weird and one in particular seems to have no idea what's going on and says the most random things. 

They could be selling "Oliver = vicious killer" one day and then forgetting about it and selling "Oliver wants to save the Polar Bears" the next. 

I guess my point is good or bad things don't seem to stick on this show so I'm not even remotely bothered. 

Unless someone is a huge Oliver fan and loved him as much as I love Felicity and it's ruining him for them. I understand being upset in that case!

I get annoyed by heaps of Olicity stuff and have to fix it with lots of dodgy head cannon! I need Oliver to love Felicity x 100000000000000000. No matter what she needs to be the epic love of his life and this season put a dampener on that for me. But I'm strangely not fussed about all the other mumbo jumbo.

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way2interested

way2interested

Just now, bijoux said:

Felicity ended last episode going to Helix to locate Oliver. No way she's not going to be in 517. How much is another story. 

Yeah, wouldn't this be the episode filming while 216 of LoT was filming (which EBR's supposedly in)? Add that along with this being the flashback episode, I'm guessing either not that much or a bunch of same set/same day scenes.

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Hiveminder

Hiveminder

(edited)

I think I'm mostly upset about how they keep trying to sell us things that just don't make sense, and then act like we're wrong for questioning it. I'm not an idiot. I'm actually pretty smart, and I can tell when you're  twisting the characters for your dumb plot, you hacks. 

Edited by Hiveminder
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leopardprint

leopardprint

2 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

With the interviews, I'm questioning what exactly the plan is for the rest of the season and series when it comes to Oliver and (his thoughts on) killing...

Those were some weird statements even for them. I feel like they've had Oliver hold every possible position on this already. Is there really new ground to explore here? Also, unless this show is going to totally swerve into a meta commentary on gratuitous violence or something, I'm basically at they wanted a scene of Oliver in chains and Chase twirling his mustache and Oliver saying he likes killing for shock and there were be little impact going forward. Is Oliver going to become a pacifist in S6?

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Trisha

Trisha

(edited)
47 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

I wasn't bothered by the spoiler at all. It's MG's interview that weirds me out.

Same. It's MG's comment that makes me think this is supposed to recontextualize everything we think we know about Oliver.

The thing that worries me most is that the writers won't even come close to this forum's thoughtful, well reasoned responses about Oliver saying he "likes" killing. I mean, they've never even really dealt with his PTSD. Everyone just seems to have a head canon about it, but it's never fully been discussed in the show. If they are giving voice to this idea that Oliver likes (or at least at one point liked) killing, then they need to give equal voice to why that's ridiculous - because otherwise some of the audience will believe it. Someone (Dig?) needs to tell him something along the lines of "Chase didn't get you to reveal your darkest secret; he got you to reveal your darkest fear. Yeah, when you first came back you were brutal, detached and saw people as expendable.  But that's not the same as you enjoyed killing them. And after Tommy you guilt-spiraled with every death,  which is not what people who take pleasure in killing do." 

Maybe it's part of the "hard" conversation Dig has with him in 518, but I would really like the notion that Oliver is a serial killer to be crushed before 520.  This a REALLY big lever for the writers to pull just for some more "am I a monster?" angst, and I worry they won't be able to get the toothpaste back in the tube this time.

Edited by Trisha
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wonderwall

wonderwall

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(edited)
Quote

At the same time, Felicity is going down her own rabbit hole with this hacker group. How far is she going to go, and can Oliver help her?

AMELL: The fact that both of them get into the shit is one of the ways that they gravitate back towards one another. They have a common malady, so to speak. She, above anyone else, is the person that he’s going to go to, if he has something to confide or work through. Diggle is very much the soothsayer and the person who can give him a good piece of advice. But in terms of a heart to heart and a dynamic conversation, Felicity is the one for him. The fact that she’s going through something like that, maybe that’s going to cause him to open up.

God bless you, Stephen Adam Amell.

[source]

Edited by wonderwall
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statsgirl

statsgirl

42 minutes ago, Trisha said:

It's MG's comment that makes me think this is supposed to recontextualize everything we think we know about Oliver.

It's what  they do. Remember WM's statements that Oliver has real feelings for Susan and is going all in on this relationship?  It was icky for 2 episodes and then Oliver brushed her aside.  (Hopefully he will continue to.)  They do it hoping we'll buy the line and make the GOTCHA bigger.

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Trisha

Trisha

(edited)

Because we could all use a little happy right about now, at least it sounds like all of this Chase mind-screwing will lead Oliver to talk to Felicity about it. I wonder if they'll save this all for 520? I could see them planting the seeds for it in 518, but then the Team Felicity vs Team Arrow happens in 519. From the new Collider interview:

Quote

At the same time, Felicity is going down her own rabbit hole with this hacker group. How far is she going to go, and can Oliver help her?
AMELL: The fact that both of them get into the shit is one of the ways that they gravitate back towards one another. They have a common malady, so to speak. She, above anyone else, is the person that he’s going to go to, if he has something to confide or work through. Diggle is very much the soothsayer and the person who can give him a good piece of advice. But in terms of a heart to heart and a dynamic conversation, Felicity is the one for him. The fact that she’s going through something like that, maybe that’s going to cause him to open up.

Where do Diggle and the team fit into all of this?
AMELL: The interesting thing is that what Prometheus has done is base his plan off of Oliver’s pattern of behavior. Oliver’s pattern of behavior has been, “I’m going solo.” When the chips are really down, he retreats and it’s just him. So, the fact that Oliver now has a team might be the one thing that Chase can’t plan for.

Edited by Trisha
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SmallScreenDiva

SmallScreenDiva

RME, so this is how they're going to justify having these damn noobs around? That he's got a "team" now? Because Oliver has always had a team: Felicity & Diggle, and also Speedy and whoever wore the freakin leather as a bird. 

But I'm happy the ban on using Oliver & Felicity in the same breath seems have been lifted and it's all about Olicity these days.

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wonderwall

wonderwall

Just now, SmallScreenDiva said:

RME, so this is how they're going to justify having these damn noobs around? That he's got a "team" now? Because Oliver has always had a team: Felicity & Diggle, and also Speedy and whoever wore the freakin leather as a bird. 

He may have a team... But Diggle/Felicity/Thea will legit be the only ones who matter :)

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looptab

looptab

7 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

RME, so this is how they're going to justify having these damn noobs around? That he's got a "team" now? Because Oliver has always had a team: Felicity & Diggle, and also Speedy and whoever wore the freakin leather as a bird. 

But I'm happy the ban on using Oliver & Felicity in the same breath seems have been lifted and it's all about Olicity these days.

Seriously. Wasn't realizing he could count on his team the turning point of S3 and S4 already? 

Oh, but now Chase is screwed, cause Oliver will realize that HE HAS A TEAM. NOW. He is realizing it just now.

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ladylaw99

ladylaw99

5 minutes ago, wonderwall said:

He may have a team... But Diggle/Felicity/Thea will legit be the only ones who matter :)

This is where I struggle with the noobs.  I really don't see what they add.  Diggle, Felicity, Thea and Oliver is enough of a team to get the job done.  Throw in Lance for law enforcement, what more do you need.   I would prefer better villians than all these new characters that add nothing to the original team.

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SmallScreenDiva

SmallScreenDiva

Felicity suddenly needs Curtis' help to work on algorithms.

Tinah was shoehorned into Oliver's detail and the police force, jobs that used to belong to Diggle and Lance.

Rene is ... I have no idea what the hell he's doing in City Hall.

These newbies offer nothing at all. They're fillers. They don't offer any fresh perspective. They can disappear in the background and no one would even notice.

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BkWurm1

BkWurm1

(edited)
1 hour ago, leopardprint said:

Those were some weird statements even for them. I feel like they've had Oliver hold every possible position on this already. Is there really new ground to explore here? Also, unless this show is going to totally swerve into a meta commentary on gratuitous violence or something, I'm basically at they wanted a scene of Oliver in chains and Chase twirling his mustache and Oliver saying he likes killing for shock and there were be little impact going forward. Is Oliver going to become a pacifist in S6?

This.  I don't think Oliver's admission changes the past, just adds another layer for Oliver to feel guilty over. Prometheus will claim he saw what Oliver wouldn't admit to himself.  Oliver will agonize over there being any shred of truth no matter how complex or convoluted. But there may be lasting consequences for the show going forward depending on how he finally comes to terms with him past choices.

 

Maybe we will be back to a no killing ban in S6. I'd be fine with that. Or maybe, sigh, the way they are going to resolve this, is for Oliver to refuse to hide under the hood anymore and, yep, come out publicly about being the Green Arrow. Which will make next season truly screwy but I don't think will fundamentally change who he is as a character.

Edited by BkWurm1
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calliope1975

calliope1975

5 hours ago, dtissagirl said:

I tend to think it's the other way around, that they created a villain specifically to explore the zeitgeist of manpain. Guggie wanted an in to the misery porn game he's seeing everywhere else, but he's aware that his show is a soapy drama at 8pm on the CW, so he can't do it all season long, but by the lords of trope cannibalization, he'll devote an entire episode to it.

But will it be like MG's Very Special guns are bad, mmkay episode, never to be spoken of again? 

I hope we can move on from guilt-ridden Oliver because it's been done a thousand times now and hahahahhahah who am I kidding? 

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statsgirl

statsgirl

The flashback sneak peek scene where Oliver says that he's going to stay and help Anatoly instead of saving himself and going back to the US -- this is why Oliver even before the show started is a better, more rootable for, character than Mon El.  They've written a depth to him and core of loyalty that they've didn't in Mon El.

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leopardprint

leopardprint

50 minutes ago, tv echo said:

 

That SA statement in the Collider interview ("The fact that both of them get into the shit is one of the ways that they gravitate back towards one another.") is the first clear indication that Oliver & Felicity are headed toward reconciliation... I hope. (fingers crossed)

 

I hope that it's a two way conversation where they both express support and concern for the other and not a rehash of the team comforting Oliver over Felicity's boyfriend's death.

 

1 hour ago, Trisha said:

But in terms of a heart to heart and a dynamic conversation, Felicity is the one for him. The fact that she’s going through something like that, maybe that’s going to cause him to open up.

?

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calliope1975

calliope1975

I think back to the look on Oliver's face after he killed The Count 1.0 after taking his no-kill-for-Tommy vow. That's not a guy who likes killing so I'm quite interested in how they're going to sell this and make it remotely believable for longer than it takes Digg to say, "That's crazy and not true, man," and Oliver to say, "You're right."

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Midnight Lullaby

Midnight Lullaby

8 minutes ago, calliope1975 said:

I think back to the look on Oliver's face after he killed The Count 1.0 after taking his no-kill-for-Tommy vow. That's not a guy who likes killing so I'm quite interested in how they're going to sell this and make it remotely believable for longer than it takes Digg to say, "That's crazy and not true, man," and Oliver to say, "You're right."

I thought the hard conversation might be about Oliver thinking he ruins his team mates lives by being close to them so he seeks the Bratva's help to keep the team out of it and obviously Dig has none of it. Maybe because I really can't fit the "liking to kill" stuff in the narrative..it just doesn't make sense.

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catrox14

catrox14

3 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

I thought the hard conversation might be about Oliver thinking he ruins his team mates lives by being close to them so he seeks the Bratva's help to keep the team out of it and obviously Dig has none of it. Maybe because I really can't fit the "liking to kill" stuff in the narrative..it just doesn't make sense.

I hope it's really just overhyping the idea and that it amounts to Prometheus realizing that HE is the one that likes to kill, not Oliver. 

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Trisha

Trisha

(edited)

Did Samantha resonate with viewers anywhere except in SA's head? Still, this interview makes me think her and William may be back in some form in S6:

Quote

Are there any characters or actors you would like to see returning to the series at any point?
Amell: I’d like to see Manu [Bennett] come back. I’d like to see more of Lexa [Doig]. I thought that the arc that we did with Katie Cassidy and Black Siren was awesome, and I would love to see more of that. I am very partial to Oliver’s storyline with his son, and with Samantha, so that would be cool. I could go on and on. I always want people to come back. Once someone resonates with viewers, I always want them to come back.

Edited by Trisha
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