Spoiler Discussion Thread

[AyChihuahua]

It seems that some things could just be decent teammate/friend indicators v. romantic crumbs. But I have no idea where they're going with all this, so...

[lemotomato]

1 hour ago, Trisha said:

I watched S3 live and it was ALL crumbs before they hooked up in 3x20. ("I just want her to be happy," "And you know how I feel about her," "You met him for like ten seconds/I knew it in five," "I know what it's like to want someone and not be with them," "As long as you're in my life I'm happy," "You're the man that I lo...believe in," "You're so focused on people you love that you forget there are people who love you.") Even when Felicity was with Ray it was obvious she was still in love with Oliver. Where are those hints this season? For people who love using the word "organic," the writers aren't doing a lot to set up a reunion. 

I remember in season 3A Oliver and Felicity barely interacted except for 301, 305 and 307. People complaining after 302 that Felicity had to cry on Roy's shoulder because Oliver wouldn't go anywhere near her. More complaining about 307 that QC got renamed and Felicity didn't tell Oliver about it. There was 312, where Felicity basically told Oliver to fuck off, and another stretch of episodes where they didn't interact until 316. There was 315 when Felicity was criticized for hooking up with Ray while Oliver and Diggle went to Nanda Parbat.  I'll concede that back then, Oliver's feelings for Felicity were clear, but for a lot of the season her feelings for Oliver were left ambiguous. Most of your crumb examples happened in 3B, 316-319, specifically, right before they got together.

There are crumbs this season too, more subtle ones maybe, but people refuse to accept them as such. I understand that this season has been not great for Olicity, but I don't think it's as hopeless as it's being made out to be because the writers have pulled this exact same shit before, and they'll probably resolve it the same way-- last minute, and when they decide they can cram it between their bigger plot points.

Edited December 20, 2016 by lemotomato

[arjumand]

Just now, AyChihuahua said:

Thanks!

I'm pretty curious re whether the writers/EPs know how close they are to the edge with all this. They seem to be constantly surprised by viewer reaction, so I'd guess...no.

That's the thing - I've said this somewhere else, but it's as if they're still writing tv shows back in the 80s, when there were like a couple of shows on tv, or you could watch a movie, and that was it. Nowadays, I can watch a million other shows which I don't have to wait weeks in between for resolution. Last Spring I binge-watched Daredevil in a week. The other month I was sick and I watched The Crown over two days. And as an aside, I never thought I'd find the QUEEN OF MOTHERFUCKING ENGLAND more relatable than characters in Arrow, but there it is. Yeah, I said it.

My point is, I don't have to watch Arrow. I choose to do so. And I can drop it, just as fast.

PS Last weekend I watched a Korean zombie movie. In Korean. With subtitles. Where character arcs were more sharply delineated than I've seen on Arrow all year.

[Mrs. de Winter]

I am pretty sure that Oliver and Susan were supposed to "sleep" together in the last episode.  Then someone on the writing staff finally remembered Oliver's Bratva tattoo and realized it would cause an issue if the rayporter saw it too soon which is why there have been so many denials.   I am sure we will get some major, undeniable show of their passion soon. 

I am confused by Oliver's stance on finding something of Laurel in BS - he wants to keep her close so he sends her to Central City - which is hundreds of miles from Star City?  I guess that usually is how close he seemed to want real Laurel too but it seems an odd misstatement of what he actually ends up doing as I cannot believe that Star City doesn't have some Argus cells (and we have seen how well the folks in Central City have kept track of BS).  

At this point I hope Felicity goes off and finds her own team.  I actually am wondering why she needs Oliver and the noobs at this point.  None of them seem terribly concerned with her needs and Felicity has shown she can find others to support her causes.   And with Oliver once again showing that he is an idiot of the highest order (tricked into killing Billy, befriending the rayporter, thinking Laurel is alive) why wouldn't she find another team?  Normally I would say she wouldn't given her friendship with Dig - but seems Dig is only allowed to have new friends now.  

[Password]

6 minutes ago, Mrs. de Winter said:

At this point I hope Felicity goes off and finds her own team.  I actually am wondering why she needs Oliver and the noobs at this point.  None of them seem terribly concerned with her needs and Felicity has shown she can find others to support her causes.   And with Oliver once again showing that he is an idiot of the highest order (tricked into killing Billy, befriending the rayporter, thinking Laurel is alive) why wouldn't she find another team?  Normally I would say she wouldn't given her friendship with Dig - but seems Dig is only allowed to have new friends now.  

Yep. 

[ComicFan777]

I think it would be a fun dynamic to have Felicity's new team be: Vigilante, Human Target, and Ragman...just wishful thinking...    

I'm excited to see Felicity in action with her new team, whoever she ends up teaming up with.  I'm all in for Felicity and new!friends.
I think it's time she finds a set of new friends - Oliver and Diggle have really failed her.

[Trisha]

4 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

There are crumbs this season too, more subtle ones maybe, but people refuse to accept them as such. 

That's true but you could view those as more friendship/important person in each other's life instead of romantic. I think Oliver had hope until the balcony scene, but that "mortal lock" convo where they encouraged each other to date other people put them firmly in friendship territory to me. Oliver has barely looked at her since, and she's certainly not giving him any romantic vibes. S3 might have been one-sided but at least we were often reminded that at least one of them was always in pining mode. This season is way too subtle (if that's what they're doing).

I have no doubt you're right and they will probably cram them together at the last minute. But that just sucks. Add that to the lack of OTA, the spotlight on Rene and the fact that Lance and Thea seem to be on a different show, and I'm not looking forward to slogging through the next 12 or so episodes in hopes the writers finally get it together.

[way2interested]

13 minutes ago, AyChihuahua said:

It seems that some things could just be decent teammate/friend indicators v. romantic crumbs. But I have no idea where they're going with all this, so...

I mean, looking back at it, a bunch of people had the same thing to say about them in s2, even SA, and now we're here. It just seems like personal interpretations that will either be confirmed or rejected once we get to the big plot moment that reveals where they're going.

[AyChihuahua]

Just now, way2interested said:

I mean, looking back at it, a bunch of people had the same thing to say about them in s2, even SA, and now we're here. It just seems like personal interpretations that will either be confirmed or rejected once we get to the big plot moment that reveals where they're going.

Yeah, I genuinely have no idea where they're going with any of this, so I'm not even disagreeing. I don't understand anything they're doing, so other than being pretty sure of a few Tina things and thinking the spec of Felicity teaming up with Vigilante is genius, I've got nothing for 5B.

[insomniadreams88]

My only fear about Felicity's upcoming storyline is that they turn it around on her and make it look like she's wrong to do whatever she does. I don't want to see her apologizing to the team for not turning to them or some stupid scene like that.

And if she does team up with Vigilante and his story on the show ends like it does in the comics, I don't want any situation where anyone can think she should feel guilty. 

[lemotomato]

19 minutes ago, ComicFan777 said:

I'm excited to see Felicity in action with her new team, whoever she ends up teaming up with.  I'm all in for Felicity and new!friends.
I think it's time she finds a set of new friends - Oliver and Diggle have really failed her.

Since my brain is stuck on season 3 comparisons to this year, this was the same sentiment expressed back then too. Poor Felicity forced to look for friendship/comfort on Palmer Island because Diggle took Oliver's side, and Oliver was being a moron. Lazy writers are lazy.

[lemotomato]

1 hour ago, Trisha said:

I have no doubt you're right and they will probably cram them together at the last minute. But that just sucks. Add that to the lack of OTA, the spotlight on Rene and the fact that Lance and Thea seem to be on a different show, and I'm not looking forward to slogging through the next 12 or so episodes in hopes the writers finally get it together.

The only thing reliable about the writers is that they're lazy and love to recycle plots and story beats. So it's not so much that I trust them (I don't), but based on previous seasons, no matter what happens in the middle, they've always circled back to Olicity (and OTA) somehow by the end of the season so it's likely that's what is going to happen this time too. 

Also, I don't think anyone should have to watch something they don't enjoy. Maybe it would be better to wait to see how it turns out and then binge watch? 

Edited December 20, 2016 by lemotomato

[statsgirl]

1 hour ago, lemotomato said:

I remember in season 3A Oliver and Felicity barely interacted except for 301, 305 and 307. People complaining after 302 that Felicity had to cry on Roy's shoulder because Oliver wouldn't go anywhere near her. More complaining about 307 that QC got renamed and Felicity didn't tell Oliver about it. There was 312, where Felicity basically told Oliver to fuck off, and another stretch of episodes where they didn't interact until 316. There was 315 when Felicity was criticized for hooking up with Ray while Oliver and Diggle went to Nanda Parbat.  I'll concede that back then, Oliver's feelings for Felicity were clear, but for a lot of the season her feelings for Oliver were left ambiguous. Most of your crumb examples happened in 3B, 316-319, specifically, right before they got together.

There are crumbs this season too, more subtle ones maybe, but people refuse to accept them as such. I understand that this season has been not great for Olicity, but I don't think it's as hopeless as it's being made out to be because the writers have pulled this exact same shit before, and they'll probably resolve it the same way-- last minute, and when they decide they can cram it between their bigger plot points.

I remember 302 and how ghastly it was.  Oliver had just kissed her and to.ld her he couldn't be with her, and then wouldn't go near Felicity not even to comfort her when Sara died.  Hated 312 too because Oliver, who left telling Felicity that he loves her and whose dying thought was of her, was such a jerk.  It was a horible season for all those things you mentioned. And 315 when Diggle told Felicity to leave with Laurel and the others while they had the real convo about what to do.

I"m pretty sure Guggie and WM think that they're giving us enough clues, not crumbs, to let us know that Oliver and Felicity will be back together, if only we'd shut up and stop whining.

1 hour ago, ComicFan777 said:

I think it would be a fun dynamic to have Felicity's new team be: Vigilante, Human Target, and Ragman...just wishful thinking...   

And Thea.  And with that team, she wouldn't have to worry about Wild Dong hitting on her all the time.

[bijoux]

3 hours ago, insomniadreams88 said:

 

And if she does team up with Vigilante and his story on the show ends like it does in the comics, I don't want any situation where anyone can think she should feel guilty. 

How does it end in the comics?

[LeighAn]

The sides are really the basis of all this Tina is going to be Olivers love interest foreva the writers are done with Olicity and want to test out a GA/BC pairing because their super keen and keep Olicity as back up etc 

Without the sides there is not ONE SINGLE shred of evidence to support the theory Tina and Oliver are going to be love interests to one another. 

The moment the sides were published by Comic.com Marc and I believe Ben got on their social media and claimed the sides were fake and were made up scenes because they know they get leaked to the media.

Now given lack of trust in the writers, maybe they were denying the sides were real because it was spoiling their big romantic twist?

But last year Felicity and Olivers proposal, Felicity being shot, Felicity in a wheel chair, Felicity seeing visions , Oliver and Felicity having a fake wedding, Laurels death- all things that were spoiled and reported on entertainment websites of varying popularity.

Not once during that time did the writers take swift action and claim it was fake, don't believe, it not what you think...

Now some of those spoilers were photographic evidence that was hard to refute but others weren't. It was just at the time hear say. 

But my point is why would the writers denials about Tina being a love interest not hold weight and be viewed as them covering up their surprise storyline when they've had the storylines surprises blown before and they've never tried to cover them up or make such public denials.

I also recall at the time the sides leaked that a lot of people here talked about how during casting for both Sara and Nyssa they were given fake scenes and that those scenes implied romantic scenes with Oliver. Now Sara did end up in a romantic relationship with Oliver but Nyssa? So why are Tinas sides being viewed as accurate scenes in an upcoming episode when it's already been accepted and proven that they use made up scenes to cast?

Its 100% possible Tina could be Olivers love interest and that the writers are done with Olicity or testing out the waters and keeping Olicity as their back up; because anything is possible.

But right now without more to go on the casting sides the writers have already said are fake it doesn't seem probable that Tina is anything more then a female recruit of Team Arrow and a potential Black Canary legacy character whether she has the full moniker or not. It doesn't seem probable that the writers are going to try and establish this supposedly full on epic GA/BC romantic relationship in what? a couple of episodes after she's introduced and after they've already had overt Olicity set ups like Oliver remembering his first date, first kiss, first time they had sex, almost losing Felicity and their fake wedding in dreamland and where they had an implied Oliver and Felicity shared flashback which including the infamous red pen and proposal imagery and what Marc and Stephen were hyping about breaking the Internet for Olicity fans and that they would love it. 

I mean if the writers want the audience to embrace GA/BC Oliver/Tina why even try and hype up the Olicity audience about upcoming Olicity scenes breaking the internet? 

Why would Wendy give interviews only this week where she called Olicity the shows core central relationship that they want to continue to explore and have already worked out where they are taking it in season 6 if the writers are in reality creating a brand new relationship, possibly endgame and are done with Olicity or keeping Olicity as their back up ship?

I can't in all honesty say I've been thrilled with how they've written the characters this season and I'm completely bummed by the lack of movement in Olicitys relationship and the ambiguity there. I'm even less thrilled and been ragey over the writers tone deafness on Social Media and their dismissiveness of shippers that I think is more them taking out their anger in part from the comic fans harassment of them last season on criticism by shippers this season because their a lot braver being snarky and antagonistic to women tweeting constructive and generally polite criticism then they were when they were getting bottom dweller bordering on psychotic hurled insults last season. Marc himself even told an Olicity fan in dm after his shippers and the ratings tweet that he mainly did it because he was tired of all the criticism he's copped since last season. (Man babies the lot of them!)

So I'm not Ms Endlessly Optimistic here but Ms Pragmatic and I just don't see enough evidence yet to support Tina/Oliver or some imagined GA/BC quota that needs to be met and therefore Olicity is over and out.

[Trisha]

3 hours ago, ComicFan777 said:

To me, this season's crumbs have been a little more subtle because the writers want it to stay ambiguous for the time being.

This season is so subtle that the two romance novelists who recap Arrow for USA Today don't ever seem to ever pick up on the "Olicity" moments. And they're romance writers! (I don't know why I enjoy their recaps because I almost always disagree with them, but I find them to be weirdly charming).

[AyChihuahua]

I do not agree that the sides are the only evidence. There is also the fact that nearly every single, straight, age-appropriate, non-related woman who's interacted with Oliver and not been introduced as a villain has gotten into his pants in some form. The actress is age-appropriate and physically attractive. She's fairly clearly not being introduced as a villain. She could be gay or in a relationship, but there's currently no evidence of either.  

Mostly, though, if she is indeed NuBC, that alone is evidence, especially in this season with its comics focus.

[Velocity23]

Also no evidence she is Oliver's LI. 

[TwistedandBored]

Every time I come here and I see the name Tina, I am like, "Who?". LOL! I really don't care about this character or BS. 

I am however excited to see Felicity with this side-group. I know I shouldn't be excited since they always let me down when it comes to Felicity storylines but I am. 

[LeighAn]

20 minutes ago, AyChihuahua said:

I do not agree that the sides are the only evidence. There is also the fact that nearly every single, straight, age-appropriate, non-related woman who's interacted with Oliver and not been introduced as a villain has gotten into his pants in some form. The actress is age-appropriate and physically attractive. She's fairly clearly not being introduced as a villain. She could be gay or in a relationship, but there's currently no evidence of either.  

Mostly, though, if she is indeed NuBC, that alone is evidence, especially in this season with its comics focus.

Straight, single age appropriate women Oliver was introduced to and has NOT hooked up with since season one:

Carly ( technically single when Oliver met her)

Laurels friend Janice (?)

Lyla (technically single when Oliver met her)

Amanda Waller

Tatsu (technically separated from her husband when Oliver reunites with her in the present)

Caitlyn

Iris

Shados Sister

Jessica Danforth

Madison Danforth

Poppy who's name I can't remember

Kara

Im sorry I just don't see how that is evidence that Oliver and Tina must hook up? That it's some fire gone conclusion that Oliver just sticks his little Arrow in every single female he meets? 

He's had 5 relationships 2 in the past (Shado and Laurel) and three in the present Helena Sara and Felicity all were meaningful relationships in the sense that they propelled Oliver forward as a character.

Laurel was a representation of innocence and who Oliver was before the Gambit.

Shado was a bright spot of comfort in a harsh reality.

Sara was Oliver trying to have a connection a relationship with the only person he thought he could connect to because of their shared past. 

Felicity by Olivers own admission is someone who restored his humanity and made him realise he deserved real love and is his always.

Other then that he had one sexual encounter with Isobel and one kiss in a moment of deep guilt and shame with Susan with a question mark still over their relationship status.

Its absolutely not true that Oliver has sex hooks up with and dates every single woman he meets and therefore he is going to have sex hook up with or date Tina. It's not evidence in the slightest. It's assumption or speculation based on personal impression and prejudice but not factual evidence.

[insomniadreams88]

1 hour ago, bijoux said:

How does it end in the comics?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vigilante_(comics)#Adrian_Chase

I haven't read the comics, so I'm just going off of things I'm reading like that ^^^^

[LeighAn]

19 minutes ago, TwistedandBored said:

Every time I come here and I see the name Tina, I am like, "Who?". LOL! I really don't care about this character or BS. 

I am however excited to see Felicity with this side-group. I know I shouldn't be excited since they always let me down when it comes to Felicity storylines but I am. 

I don't think it will happen in the slightest bit this would be the perfect time for them to do a Birds of Prey B Team.

Have Felicity feeling a lack of action from Team Arrow on the Prometheus front reach out to Thea/Speedy for help support, maybe approach Helena or Cupid as her muscle? 

But honestly I don't get the impression Felicity is going to create a new team as much as she is going to be reaching out to people outside Tean Arrow because she either feels they aren't doing enough or she fears their concerns over the means of what she wants to do. Felicity has shown this season that she puts on a front for Oliver and her friends because she doesn't want anyone to know how badly she's coping with things. 

But I think seeing her reaching out to shadier people like Vigilante and maybe Anatoli could be really cool. 

I just hope they aren't going Dark Willow on her because I don't think they gave the finesse to pull it off like the Buffy writers had.

[TwistedandBored]

2 minutes ago, LeighAn said:

I don't think it will happen in the slightest bit this would be the perfect time for them to do a Birds of Prey B Team.

Have Felicity feeling a lack of action from Team Arrow on the Prometheus front reach out to Thea/Speedy for help support, maybe approach Helena or Cupid as her muscle? 

But honestly I don't get the impression Felicity is going to create a new team as much as she is going to be reaching out to people outside Tean Arrow because she either feels they aren't doing enough or she fears their concerns over the means of what she wants to do. Felicity has shown this season that she puts on a front for Oliver and her friends because she doesn't want anyone to know how badly she's coping with things. 

But I think seeing her reaching out to shadier people like Vigilante and maybe Anatoli could be really cool. 

I just hope they aren't going Dark Willow on her because I don't think they gave the finesse to pull it off like the Buffy writers had.

I would love an episode of Felicity and Thea off  doing something together. I liked the Bees episode last season probably due to the interaction between the two ladies. 

As for the group thing, I don't think it is a group too but I figured she will interact with more than The Vigilante.  I just want her out of the bunker doing something, anything really. 

[LeighAn]

Yeah I was hoping that pod person Felicity was perhaps intentional to serve a purpose so I'm also ready for Felicity to do something more then be the wit on Comms in the lair and I'm extremely glad if proven accurate BFS tweet about how Felicity starts to take stock of her life or lack there of that suggest to me the outcome will be that Felicity gets her groove back.

My only qualms are that they don't try Dark Willow to much cause I don't think they can hack it and that they don't try a twisted dynamic between Felicity/Vigilante as some kind of Frank/Karen-lite storyline cause ... I also don't think they can hack it haha. 

[Cleanqueen]

2 hours ago, LeighAn said:

The sides are really the basis of all this Tina is going to be Olivers love interest foreva the writers are done with Olicity and want to test out a GA/BC pairing because their super keen and keep Olicity as back up etc 

Without the sides there is not ONE SINGLE shred of evidence to support the theory Tina and Oliver are going to be love interests to one another. 

The moment the sides were published by Comic.com Marc and I believe Ben got on their social media and claimed the sides were fake and were made up scenes because they know they get leaked to the media.

Now given lack of trust in the writers, maybe they were denying the sides were real because it was spoiling their big romantic twist?

But last year Felicity and Olivers proposal, Felicity being shot, Felicity in a wheel chair, Felicity seeing visions , Oliver and Felicity having a fake wedding, Laurels death- all things that were spoiled and reported on entertainment websites of varying popularity.

Not once during that time did the writers take swift action and claim it was fake, don't believe, it not what you think...

Now some of those spoilers were photographic evidence that was hard to refute but others weren't. It was just at the time hear say. 

But my point is why would the writers denials about Tina being a love interest not hold weight and be viewed as them covering up their surprise storyline when they've had the storylines surprises blown before and they've never tried to cover them up or make such public denials.

I also recall at the time the sides leaked that a lot of people here talked about how during casting for both Sara and Nyssa they were given fake scenes and that those scenes implied romantic scenes with Oliver. Now Sara did end up in a romantic relationship with Oliver but Nyssa? So why are Tinas sides being viewed as accurate scenes in an upcoming episode when it's already been accepted and proven that they use made up scenes to cast?

Its 100% possible Tina could be Olivers love interest and that the writers are done with Olicity or testing out the waters and keeping Olicity as their back up; because anything is possible.

But right now without more to go on the casting sides the writers have already said are fake it doesn't seem probable that Tina is anything more then a female recruit of Team Arrow and a potential Black Canary legacy character whether she has the full moniker or not. It doesn't seem probable that the writers are going to try and establish this supposedly full on epic GA/BC romantic relationship in what? a couple of episodes after she's introduced and after they've already had overt Olicity set ups like Oliver remembering his first date, first kiss, first time they had sex, almost losing Felicity and their fake wedding in dreamland and where they had an implied Oliver and Felicity shared flashback which including the infamous red pen and proposal imagery and what Marc and Stephen were hyping about breaking the Internet for Olicity fans and that they would love it. 

I mean if the writers want the audience to embrace GA/BC Oliver/Tina why even try and hype up the Olicity audience about upcoming Olicity scenes breaking the internet? 

Why would Wendy give interviews only this week where she called Olicity the shows core central relationship that they want to continue to explore and have already worked out where they are taking it in season 6 if the writers are in reality creating a brand new relationship, possibly endgame and are done with Olicity or keeping Olicity as their back up ship?

I can't in all honesty say I've been thrilled with how they've written the characters this season and I'm completely bummed by the lack of movement in Olicitys relationship and the ambiguity there. I'm even less thrilled and been ragey over the writers tone deafness on Social Media and their dismissiveness of shippers that I think is more them taking out their anger in part from the comic fans harassment of them last season on criticism by shippers this season because their a lot braver being snarky and antagonistic to women tweeting constructive and generally polite criticism then they were when they were getting bottom dweller bordering on psychotic hurled insults last season. Marc himself even told an Olicity fan in dm after his shippers and the ratings tweet that he mainly did it because he was tired of all the criticism he's copped since last season. (Man babies the lot of them!)

So I'm not Ms Endlessly Optimistic here but Ms Pragmatic and I just don't see enough evidence yet to support Tina/Oliver or some imagined GA/BC quota that needs to be met and therefore Olicity is over and out.

ALL OF THIS!!!!

[CooperTV]

4 hours ago, LeighAn said:

ts absolutely not true that Oliver has sex hooks up with and dates every single woman he meets

Aside from main characters from other Arrow shows and characters who were otherwise engaged at the time, he absolutely has sex hook ups with everything that moves since season 1 and also try to have serious relationships with those people, for reasons noone is clear on. I would never think Helena or McKenna were serious affairs for Oliver because the whole time he was pining for Laurel. Same thing with Sara: I don't think he ever loved her but he decided to do that anyway because Oliver Queen has a pattern of certain behavior when he hates himself and feels guilty. Same with Isobel and Susan and whoever was there in the past, because he tries connect with new women while pining for Felicity.

If there's going to be a new BC, who is heterosexual/bisexual beautiful young woman, there's going to be Oliver/Tina romance, and there's going to be a love triangle from hell.

[wonderwall]

10 minutes ago, CooperTV said:

If there's going to be a new BC, who is heterosexual/bisexual beautiful young woman, there's going to be Oliver/Tina romance, and there's going to be a love triangle from hell.

I'm adding you to my list of potential hat eaters. lol

[Chaser]

6 minutes ago, wonderwall said:

I'm adding you to my list of potential hat eaters. lol

Long list. List is long. 

Probably should check for food allergies. Lol

[wonderwall]

33 minutes ago, Chaser said:

Long list. List is long. 

Probably should check for food allergies. Lol

lol! I just don't get speaking so definitively with this show when we have no proof  :p 

[BkWurm1]

Quote

There are crumbs this season too, more subtle ones maybe, but people refuse to accept them as such. I understand that this season has been not great for Olicity, but I don't think it's as hopeless as it's being made out to be because the writers have pulled this exact same shit before, and they'll probably resolve it the same way-- last minute, and when they decide they can cram it between their bigger plot points

If it hadn't been for that ridiculous promise Laurel extracted from Oliver (who says things like that?????) I'd be in not so patient wait mode, knowing I just had to get through this and eventually it would circle back but by putting the possibility of GA and BC back on the table, they've changed the rules.  

1 hour ago, CooperTV said:

If there's going to be a new BC, who is heterosexual/bisexual beautiful young woman, there's going to be Oliver/Tina romance, and there's going to be a love triangle from hell.

Oh dear lord I had not considered a love triangle.  I've been thinking at worse they'd make a change, but the idea that Oliver might be caught between the two of them going back and forth trying to make up his mind makes me ill.  

Ok, deep breath.  There's nothing in Arrow's history to suggest they'd ever do a real, full blown love triangle.  Oliver and Laurel it was clear that Tommy was the odd man out and I'd say the same for Ray and for Slade.  

Still, just the notion created new terrors to ward off.    

[LeighAn]

As somebody mentioned before there has been at least 4 shows where Green Arrow and Black Canary weren't together romantically Smallville being one of them and Green Arrow and Black Canary are not Lois and Clark where it's unacceptable for one to be without the other.

The writers had the balls to say screw canon when they put Oliver and Felicity together in the first place because Olicity was the better story and DC/WB had no issue with that in fact both companies have openly endorsed/promoted the relationship at one point or another.

Theyve had one proto type Black Canary on the show and one actual canon Black Canary on the show and they still had Oliver wanting to marry Felicity and calling her his always. I don't see how a third version of Black Canary that's basically a made up character who takes the mantle suddenly changes things? 

Theres still no evidence that the writer s are interested in a GA/BC romance. Maybe there might be once we get closer to Tinas appearance but right now it's all just fear of the unknown.

If anything I think they want the Green Arrow and Black Canary partnership/fighting duo. We saw that last season with Oliver and Laurel when they were on the field with the scaling arrow lines and Oliver catching  Laurel and whatever. 

I just think for whatever reason -bts shenanigans or something else- they really didn't want Katie as Black Canary nor the baggage.

It would fit with Stephens whole Green Arrow and Black Canary go hand in hand PSA. Which he only talked about in an action story sense and didn't talk about in a romantic sense.

Im open to the writers proving me wrong and living down to my expectations and then everyone can say I told you so haha. 

But honestly if and when that day comes I'll probably have finally been given enough of a push to say bye bye  Arrow.

[statsgirl]

7 hours ago, LeighAn said:

I mean if the writers want the audience to embrace GA/BC Oliver/Tina why even try and hype up the Olicity audience about upcoming Olicity scenes breaking the internet? 

Why would Wendy give interviews only this week where she called Olicity the shows core central relationship that they want to continue to explore and have already worked out where they are taking it in season 6 if the writers are in reality creating a brand new relationship, possibly endgame and are done with Olicity or keeping Olicity as their back up ship?

I'm not saying you're wrong about the rest, I just wanted to address these two comments:

MG did say that the Olicity scene would break the internet.  IIRC, far from breaking the internet, the resulting reaction was underwhelmed. Or feeling manipulted.  He tried to get people excited about the great Olicity scene and it fizzled like a damp squib.  Olicity shippers, except for a few diehards, were unimpressed and felt that the scene really meant nothing.  Well , he never was much good at anticipating audience reaction.

I also see WM's comments in much the same way, trying to hold shippers while the show is writing away from Oliver and Felicity.   "Please believe us that they are the core relationship even though you don't see any of that on the screen."  Of course she's trying to keep Olicity shippers -- the episode ended with Oliver kissing Susan and greeting a returned-from-the-dead Laurel, not to mention that Oliver just killed Felicity's boyfriend.  Why would any casual viewer, or even some devote ones, think that Oliver will end up with Felicity after that?

Even though I still think that Olicity is the endgame, overall the EPs comments on Olicity this season have been less encouraging than their comments about how much Laurel means to Oliver.  Or that Oliver's primary love is for his city.

[lemotomato]

1 hour ago, statsgirl said:

MG did say that the Olicity scene would break the internet.  IIRC, far from breaking the internet, the resulting reaction was underwhelmed. Or feeling manipulted.  He tried to get people excited about the great Olicity scene and it fizzled like a damp squib.  Olicity shippers, except for a few diehards, were unimpressed and felt that the scene really meant nothing.  Well , he never was much good at anticipating audience reaction.

I also see WM's comments in much the same way, trying to hold shippers while the show is writing away from Oliver and Felicity.   "Please believe us that they are the core relationship even though you don't see any of that on the screen."  Of course she's trying to keep Olicity shippers -- the episode ended with Oliver kissing Susan and greeting a returned-from-the-dead Laurel, not to mention that Oliver just killed Felicity's boyfriend.  Why would any casual viewer, or even some devote ones, think that Oliver will end up with Felicity after that?

Judging by how many different gif sets I've seen of the red pen scene on Tumblr, I disagree with your perception about how it was received. Heck, I'd consider myself a pragmatic shipper, not one of the die-hard optimists, and I accepted it for what it was meant to be-- a cute scene that's supposed to serve as a reminded that Olicity isn't dead. 

As to why anyone would think Oliver would end up with Felicity after what's happened-- because this is a show on the CW, and crazy shit happens to the endgame couple on pretty much every show on the network. Why would Arrow be any different? The show spent 4 seasons building up Olicity. It's in its 5th season with maybe 2 more to go, and wouldn't it make more sense that what's going on this year is just stalling rather than throwing away 4 years of a wildly popular pairing to switch the main ship a second time?

Edited December 21, 2016 by lemotomato

[Mellowyellow]

4 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

 

Oh dear lord I had not considered a love triangle.  I've been thinking at worse they'd make a change, but the idea that Oliver might be caught between the two of them going back and forth trying to make up his mind makes me ill.  

 

No!!!!! nonononononononono

Noooooooooooooooooooooo

My poor soul cannot handle this shit. I'm ready for Felicity to have her own life and move away from Oliver while he dates whoever. I cannot deal with them letting him consider "choosing" my beloved amazing Felicity.

Just no!!!!!! This would probably be worse than Chuck and Blair and the uncle dating business.

[tv echo]

Quote

-- On whether there is something in particular that she's particularly proud of that points to Arrow’s legacy, WM: "I would say, one of the most interesting and most challenging aspects about the show is that we didn’t allow it, from the get-go, the show was never one specific genre or type of storytelling.  And that makes it very hard to break and very challenging to write., but I think that’s what keeps it interesting. ... We have so many elements coming into any given episode. There’s the procedural element, the superhero element, the fun of that. We always have an emotional core to the storytelling. and I think that’s a good part of the secret sauce. Always making sure we know why Oliver’s punching someone in Act Five. It’s not just about the action. It’s about his emotional story for the episode. and his larger emotional arc. And for me, that’s what set it apart. Coming on from the beginning, as I did, it was mind-blowing. That was very different for TV at that time. Previous shows I worked on,  you always knew what you were doing. It was a law show, or it was Desperate Housewives, there was a template for how this stuff had gotten done. ... For this show, there was none. There was no template. We were constantly reinventing the wheel. That makes I think, for very compelling storytelling and people staying interested. You don’t know what you’re going to get." (Dec. 19, 2016 Blastr article, page 50 of Spoilers thread)

Instead of building audience trust over five years, the Arrow EPs have built up audience mistrust. At this point, I don't expect them to make logical decisions or CW-type decisions when it comes to relationships on the show. They now seem to take pride in doing the unexpected, in shocking and surprising the audience, in epic game-changers - even over consistency or logic. They also seem to take a perverse pleasure in foiling expectations.

So, now, I don't know what to expect - so I kinda expect the worst (but hope for the best).

Edited December 21, 2016 by tv echo

[ComicFan777]

"...making sure we know why Oliver's punching someone...his emotional story..." - Personally, I haven't understood his motivations for anything he has done since 4.08.

"You don't know what you're going to get" - Yeah, I really wouldn't be bragging about that.

Edited December 21, 2016 by ComicFan777

[statsgirl]

5 hours ago, lemotomato said:

Judging by how many different gif sets I've seen of the red pen scene on Tumblr, I disagree with your perception about how it was received. Heck, I'd consider myself a pragmatic shipper, not one of the die-hard optimists, and I accepted it for what it was meant to be-- a cute scene that's supposed to serve as a reminded that Olicity isn't dead.

Was that the scene that was supposed to break the internet?  I thought it was one from an earlier episode.  (Just for myself, I thought it was amazingly manipulative as a  bone thrown for shippers.)

Can anyone remember what scene it was that really broke the internet?  Was it last season or s3?

1 hour ago, tv echo said:

Instead of building audience trust over five years, the Arrow EPs have built up audience mistrust. At this point, I don't expect them to make logical decisions or CW-type decisions when it comes to relationships on the show. They now seem to take pride in doing the unexpected, in shocking and surprising the audience, in epic game-changers - even over consistency or logic. They also seem to take a perverse pleasure in foiling expectations.

Yes.  It seems to be more important to them to shock viewers with things that come out of nowhere instead of consistent writing ending  in a logical but unexpected twist.

I can maybe accept the sex scene in 3x20 (which continues to pull viewings and gifs on the internet) after a season of anti-Olicity writing because it was 2 seasons of simmering UST brought to a boil.  (And then they blew it by putting them apart again and having Felicity and the rest of the team think that Oliver was going to kill them, which made the final decision for a road trip WTF?)  But it's not going to work even to that level in s5 after what they supposedly meant to each other in s4.

[insomniadreams88]

11 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

I can maybe accept the sex scene in 3x20 (which continues to pull viewings and gifs on the internet) after a season of anti-Olicity writing because it was 2 seasons of simmering UST brought to a boil.  (And then they blew it by putting them apart again and having Felicity and the rest of the team think that Oliver was going to kill them, which made the final decision for a road trip WTF?)  But it's not going to work even to that level in s5 after what they supposedly meant to each other in s4.

This. It's one thing to have the events of 3B before a couple is together. But once a couple has been together, got engaged and was planning a wedding (plus with Oliver's vows), they have to at least give us moments showing that "yes, we remember all of that happened and these two characters know each other outside of the lair" before a reunion. That can't just come out of nowhere, even if they think, "Hey, let's surprise them with a reunion!" is a good idea. All the interviews have the EPs loving how they have Oliver and Felicity as just friends right now, but I have to wonder about their definition of "friends." 

Honestly, part of me wonders if the reason they're being so adamant that Oliver didn't have sex with Susan is they realized how awful it would make their lead character look (even though he still looks bad). And because of that, hopefully they wouldn't have Oliver moving on to another LI (i.e. Tina or someone else - we still don't know about other characters they'll be bringing in, and let's face it, they love new characters this season, so it's likely we have at least one more) while Felicity's going to be going through everything she is in 5B. (Or we'll get another 509 ending, this time with Felicity on her own/with her new people, Curtis signing divorce papers, something happening with Thea/Diggle/Lance/etc. and Oliver with his new LI. Though I doubt it. I hope they've learned their lesson there.) 

[Chaser]

The whole Surprise Kid! and breaking them up after an engagement makes me think someone is a fan of Gilmore Girls in the worst possible way

[tangerine95]

I think it's different this season than in season 3 even tho they're doing the same thing and stalling, because in season 3 they wanted the Olicity angst and drama to be a big story all season long. This season I think they wanted to stay away from romance drama in any way and for them that apparently includes showing emotion at all I guess. Even the temp LIs don't seem to be there for olicity and their storyline like Ray was, they seem to be there more for plot reasons.But ignoring olicity for a while while they stall isn't very new to them imo, every season seems to have those periods. It just seems really jarring considering season 4.I don't think these writers realized that they can't just ignore or sideline olicity when the plot needs them to after they almost had them get married, at least not in the same way they could before in for example season 2B.

[Chaser]

I think one of the big differences between S3 angst and S5 is S3 was set up dependent on Olicity getting together. That was clear from the first episode and reinforced randomly throughout the season. S5 is not in that boat. There was no date scene, no personal dilemma. They set up the reunion but I wouldn't say they put a big neon light tying it to the season. 

[tangerine95]

I feel like we would have gotten something similar in season 5A if it didn't seem to be written from such an action first, anti romance POV. Like I think they would have written the whole exes who still love each other but are trying to move on thing very clearly and we would have seen the jealousy and struggle in seeing each other with other people if they weren't so intent on toning down the romance aspect at least in 5A. 

Edited December 21, 2016 by tangerine95

[dtissagirl]

1 hour ago, tangerine95 said:

It just seems really jarring considering season 4.I don't think these writers realized that they can't just ignore or sideline olicity when the plot needs them to after they almost had them get married, at least not in the same way they could before in for example season 2B.

I sort of feel like it's worse than that -- this writers room seems to truly really believe that each season stands on its own separately from the others, with regards to character stuff. The plot is serialized, but the character development is season by season, resetting at the start of each new one. So in the writers room, it's totally OKAY that S5 has O/F in this weird as fuck limbo of bzzzuh, because they really truly believe the romantic storyline in S4 was wrapped up. And now here comes a brand new story, that only very vaguely deals with emotional beats of the past. Hell, Diggle has barely dealt with Andy's death, Thea has barely dealt with everything that happened re: Malcolm and the boyfriend dude kidnapping and dying on her. Character-driven stuff only exists in season. It doesn't go to the next one. It's like watching an anthology series where character development is concerned. Except this isn't a freaking anthology, so poor sucker [me] in the audience WILL NEVER LOOK at each season separately because that's not how serialized TV work.

And the fact that they write the show from an emotional standpoint as if it were an anthology also plays into their extremely bizarre idea that you have to look at a season as a whole to get a satisfying story. It plays into them thinking an audience has to be patient during the season, because ~only once we get to the end~ you will see their masterplan. LOLNO, son. Forever LOLNO.

If this were 1990 and David Lynch was making it maaaaaybe I'd give them the benefit of the doubt and would wait to find out who killed Laura Palmer. But this is 2016, and Shondaland has been proving for a decade that you CAN make epic game-changer TV shows in which the shockers are character-driven. Hello Scandal. And hey, Marc Guggenheim's brother is currently writing a freaking political drama filled with game-changer shockers that don't require me to bend my brain to fanwank anything. And Jack Bauer is the president on that show.

Edited December 21, 2016 by dtissagirl

[BkWurm1]

2 hours ago, Chaser said:

The whole Surprise Kid! and breaking them up after an engagement makes me think someone is a fan of Gilmore Girls in the worst possible way

So you're telling me I'm going to have to wait ten years for a Netflix revival before I get proper closure?  

[statsgirl]

6 hours ago, dtissagirl said:

And the fact that they write the show from an emotional standpoint as if it were an anthology also plays into their extremely bizarre idea that you have to look at a season as a whole to get a satisfying story. It plays into them thinking an audience has to be patient during the season, because ~only once we get to the end~ you will see their masterplan. LOLNO, son. Forever LOLNO.

And even if you do wait till the end of the season to get the whole story, as you point out that only lasts till the start of the next season and then the whole insanity starts all over again with a completely different story.

[Chaser]

I'm wondering if there is more to the retconning of Laurel then meets the eye. I just rewatched the pilot and I'm listening to him talk about how much he thought of Laurel while he was away and the line about Laurel always seeing the best in him was featured in the pilot as well. Nothing of that has appeared so far in the flashbacks but I'm wondering if they are working backwards from the pilot in the present in this regard. This season is supposed to wrap up the five years and no doubt there are some loose threads they want to connect. They can't pretend Oliver and Laurel worked out so they may be taking advantage of KC getting a deal by retconning them as BFFs to get to that pilot. 

Other thoughts, SA may want to lay off the sparkling wine or they are going to need to CGI more than that beard. 

They didn't think that opening voice over through. Why was he lying to himself about being on the island the whole time? I kind of think they should redo the voice for the finale this season.

Thea was shocked over the scars but never wondered how he found a tattoo artist on the island?

Turning off the TV or telling Oliver to rot in hell didn't turn me off Laurel, it was when she came to the club to make nice. It foreshadowed a lot of miss connection with the character. They missed a scene explaining the sudden change of heart. They also had her buy Oliver pushing her away super quick, especially after he was all sad and regretful two seconds before. For someone who saw the best, she certainly believed the worst.

I also just noticed the video of Ollie getting into a drunk fight with a Pap showed him all over some blonde girl that wasn't Laurel. They said he had just been acquitted of the assault before the Gambit sank. It takes two seconds for things to go to trial on this show. Nice addition to the Ollie and Laurel love story.

I realized some of this belongs in other threads.

[Cleanqueen]

I was just thinking the other day how they killed Laurel a year earlier than when the show was supposed to connect the flashbacks to the present time. That is a ballsy move if you ask me, seeing as how much the pilot and most of season 1 was focused on Oliver and his love for Laurel Lance. In all seriousness, they could've just had Laurel leave town and come back for the season 5 finale just as Oliver comes home. But damn did they really not want Katie Cassidy and to top it all, there is a supposed new BC, that has got to sting.

[statsgirl]

I think it was more about wanting a death to matter again, as it did in s1 and 2, unlike seasons 3 and 4 where it seemed that everyone who died came back again (except for Ra's).  Having her leave town wouldn't have dealt with that problem.

I don't think it's necessarily a problem making the pilot meet the current situation if they write it well.  (Whether they will is another question entirely.)  Just as s1 Flashback Oliver used Laurel's picture as a talisman to get him through his time on the island, before he fell for Shado and the picture disappeared, Bratva Oliver could think of Laurel as someone good and pure and, at the end, a light to get him back to Starling City.  It's an illusion but he needs an illusion at that point to make him keep living.

I think the retcon of Lauriever and St. Laurel 501 - 509 makes that more difficult but not impossible.  At the end of season 5, Oliver needs to have a realistic evaluation of Laurel, that she's not the saint he though of when he was away, and apparently everyone thinks this season, but she's also not the annoying gnat that he seemed to feel she was in season 2 and 3.  That would both honour the memory of who she really was and wrap up Oliver's relationship with her.

But given how they've been writing it this season, I'm not holding my breath.

[tangerine95]

I think making a big deal about LL especially to Oliver is basically because they wanted this death to be huge but if they actually followed what they wrote for Oliver about his and Laurel's relationship the past 3 seasons and how irrelevant Laurel was written to anyone but Lance and Sara then the death wouldn't have the impact they wanted. Also I feel like they're seriously struggling with fitting in KC's appearances to fulfill her deal and are just making up random reasons to have her show up even if it doesn't make sense.And I think there's also some exaggerating of the importance BC and Laurel's legacy had and it's because they want another try to make another BC work. 

But I guess in a way it kinda makes sense. Like it's easy for Oliver to glorify Laurel and how much she meant to him after season 1 now that she's gone and he isn't actually around her on a daily basis lol.

Edited December 22, 2016 by tangerine95

[dtissagirl]

I think the writers are writing the Laurel they always imagined, now that there isn't an actual real Katie Cassidy there to get lost in translation. Except we all watched the previous seasons and remember actual real Katie Cassidy's Laurel way more than writers-imagined Laurel.

Because this show is hilarious.