Spoiler Discussion Thread

[Chaser]

7 minutes ago, tangerine95 said:

 When it comes to how they promote I have this weird feeling that they think that the more popular aspects don't allow for new things they try to be accepted and liked. So when they need to push new characters or relationships they push them hard all the time and pretend the older ones don't exist.

It didn't hit me until I started reading this that they approached S3 with the same mindset. OTA was taken apart to fit in new characters. It was stupid then too.  

[lemotomato]

11 minutes ago, Chaser said:

I think I read this and forgot about it. It's nice to know they were at least talked to her about coming back. Is it terrible to hope they got TA instead?

I don't think it's terrible. I like CR a lot, but I prefer seeing Donna as an occasional guest role rather than a regular. I'd love it if they could get TA back because I think they barely scratched the surface of Papa Smoak and Felicity's relationship, but if the show wasn't gonna pay for CR, they probably can't afford TA either.

[bijoux]

It depends. It sounds like CR wanted a series regular spot. TA would probably be affordable if he agreed to occasional guest spots.

[insomniadreams88]

TA guest starred on Timeless a few weeks ago (which was a surprise because I don't think there was any casting announcement for it), but I don't think I've heard of anything else coming up for him, making me hope that we could see Noah again. There is so much they could write for Felicity and her father. 

[CabotCove]

Quote

it's all about Oliver narrative in interviews this season but I don't think it affected their writing that muchImo Felicity isn't any more sidelined or has less of a storyline than any of the regulars. They've all been reduced in screentime and storylines.

I agree.

[Starfish35]

Actually that makes sense, if CR wanted series regular and they weren't willing to commit to that. (Thanks to everyone who answered.)  I don't think, personally, that it would have been a good idea to make her a regular, but I liked having her around every once in a while (although I did take issue with her toward the end of last season for getting on Quentin's case about not admitting he knew about Laurel).  

It would be nice if they could bring TA back for a few episodes though.  I'd be tempted to watch again for those episodes.

Edited December 1, 2016 by Starfish35

[statsgirl]

  For all the talk about how they are re-doing season 1 this year, in terms of process it's been much more like season 3.  They introduced a new team, but it was too much, too fast, like Speedy and Black Canary in s3.  They knew that they wanted to end on an Olicity note but stalled too much and didn't expect how much the fandom got impatient with the bad writing.

Felicity really got short-changed this season (suddenly she's  combination of Lucy Ricardo and Donna Reed) but so did Thea, who went from having her own storyline (albeit as Malcolm Merlyn's daughter) to a retread of Laurel's story with her father.  Lance has the occasional scene as a drunk but even the "Is he Prometheus?" lasted barely a few seconds and poor Diggle is stuck in the lair mentoring Wild Dog.

16 hours ago, wonderwall said:

Honestly it makes me feel 100% more positive that 509 will be a relatively big Olicity episode :)

I'm still keeping my expectations very ,very low.  They absolutely need a big Olicity episode in order to get people to come back in February but I don't think they knew that yet when they shot it back in October.  And to be honest, the fandom wasn't that upset  back then.  The real discontent started in after October, and blew up after 505 when what was expected to be a good Olicity episode turned out to be just the opposite.  "Clarity " my eye.

5 hours ago, looptab said:

 Plus, should the whatever Prometheus is going to do involve Susan, who would even care?

 

The comic book fans, the group they're completely pandering to in this group of episodes.  I suspect the EPs though they could get them back but it seems to me that even if they come back now, they're going to leave again if Arrow ever goes back to its s4A formula, which is when I liked it best.

2 hours ago, Chaser said:

The lack of story (outside of recruiting the team and the brief Havenrock) doesn't bug me so much because they are trying to establish these new characters on the Team. Narratively I can understand the others taking a backseat for now. What gets me more is the radio silence from EBR and all the social media accounts pulling back on anything Felicity. That tells me they don't want anyone focused on Felicity right now at all. Everything on the action and masks and other relationships. Which tells me after five seasons they are tone death.

EBR has never done a whole lot of show promotion.  Most of her social media stuff  has been more friends than show-oriented.

But I do think the Arrow promotion has focused on New characters! New masks! especially for Wild Dog who they are hoping will take of as a beloved character.  (Cue cynical laughter).  MG has said how much he enjoyed writing him.

I haven't a clue what they're going to do now.  They're getting rid of Evelyn but Rene is very unpopular and this season Curtis is more annoying than entertaining.  The best is Rory but magic doesn't belong on this show.  From what EK has been saying in interviews, I"m guessing they are going to make Curtis more competent in 5B and keeping him around.  No idea what they plan to do about Rene.

[insomniadreams88]

2 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

The best is Rory but magic doesn't belong on this show. 

Yeah, but so far they haven't shown those rags to have any weaknesses. That means that there's really no reason for him to get rid of them, so if they ever decide to eliminate magic completely from the show (and therefore his rags), I fear that Rory will be leaving too. And I don't want Rory to leave. 

[Morrigan2575]

So the BTS pic of SA and GG in the bar was the final scene from the crossover.

[bijoux]

7 hours ago, statsgirl said:

 They introduced a new team, but it was too much, too fast, like Speedy and Black Canary in s3.  

Thea came on the team in the final few episodes of season 3 when Oliver went Darth Oliver. I really don't think things were sacrificed in order to include her in the team.

[BkWurm1]

Season three IMO wasn't a problem because of fast introduction of the characters so much since Laurel and Thea weren't new, but moving so many of them into the exact same sphere.  That's where it got really crowded.

And then I maintain in season four the problem of not being able to treat Black Canary as a newbie or sidekick even when she had the least training out of anyone, created an even worse bottleneck since it IMO forced them to raise everyone in a mask up to the same level as equals which undercut Oliver on his own show.  

We went Oliver mostly in the field with Roy kind of tailing him but not getting in the way and back up from Diggle occasionally, to Spartan, Speedy and Laurel always out there every time with some kind of mandate that no one was better than anyone (including Oliver).  The whole dynamic of the team changed and not for the better.  

Now this year not only do we have an even more crowded bunker, 3 of the 4 new team members are virtual strangers.  I hated it when I knew everyone, it's almost intolerable now that the newbies out number the original cast.  

Really doesn't help that Rene is written as just an ass.  And a prominent one each week.  

If I have just one wish to take from the Crossover, I hope that the pervasively super negative reaction to Wild Dong that I've seen among reviews, specifically from those that don't even watch Arrow normally (so they have no axe to grind) wakes up MG about what a terrible character they've created.  Maybe, just maybe TPTB will stop assuming me not liking Rene is just sour grapes about some other aspect of the show.  

Edited December 2, 2016 by BkWurm1

[Sunshine]

I wonder if personality wise they are trying to go the Heatwave route with Rene/Wild Dog but Rick Gonzalez doesn't come off as well as Dominic Purcell.  Heatwave calling Felicity Ponytail doesn't grate near as much as Rene calling her Blondie.  I think it's all in the delivery.

[dtissagirl]

For me it's because I believe Mick is a brute. Wild Dong is like what if a poodle went rabid.

[insomniadreams88]

4 minutes ago, Sunshine said:

I wonder if personality wise they are trying to go the Heatwave route with Rene/Wild Dog but Rick Gonzalez doesn't come off as well as Dominic Purcell.  Heatwave calling Felicity Ponytail doesn't grate near as much as Rene calling her Blondie.  I think it's all in the delivery.

I think that's also because while Mick calls Ray "Haircut," we've seen that relationship develop and evolve. We haven't gotten that for Felicity and WD and it doesn't seem like we're going to. They're focusing on WD with Dig as a mentor and we know we have stuff coming up between WD and Lance. We haven't gotten any indication that WD sees Felicity as anything but "Blondie" which bothers me every time it comes out of his mouth. 

[EmilyBettFan]

Wild dog is just so unlikeable. I don't know what they see in this actor for this particular show. He could be good in other stuff but this guy just grates here on Arrow. Be gone or get some humility and get better.

[bijoux]

I don't think Rick Gonzales is doing a bad job. It's not like with MM where I'm wondering what the hell she's doing when she's given something to do. He's playing Wild Dog as he is written and he's doing it capably. It's just that I hate the way he's written.

[Sunshine]

I don't think Rick Gonzales is doing a bad job either.  I just get tired of the attitude.  I think he's supposed to be a tough guy with heart but they're writing more tough attitude than heart which is why it grates at times.  I don't need 50/50 but better than 95/5 would work.

[insomniadreams88]

1 minute ago, Sunshine said:

I don't think Rick Gonzales is doing a bad job either.  I just get tired of the attitude.  I think he's supposed to be a tough guy with heart but they're writing more tough attitude than heart which is why it grates at times.  I don't need 50/50 but better than 95/5 would work.

Maybe that's coming up in 5B? Aren't we supposed to be getting some of his backstory? If that is true, I think they would have been better off not writing him this way in 5A because by the time they do get around to writing him as a character people might like, it may be too late. 

[tangerine95]

It's already too late for me tbh. Like I don't care how he develops, I just want him gone.Especially if they continue to use cheap contrived ways to make him look like a good guy like when they had WD be the one to think of bringing Digg his kid to the bunker so he can see him on his bday. I mean his wife or closest friends didn't think of it but this guy that knows him for like 3 days did. 

I do agree they're going for a Mick type of thing with him and it's not like there's not a lot of characters who act like snarky jerks and become fan favourites but I don't think it's working for WD at all. 

Edited December 2, 2016 by tangerine95

[EmilyBettFan]

2 hours ago, bijoux said:

I don't think Rick Gonzales is doing a bad job. It's not like with MM where I'm wondering what the hell she's doing when she's given something to do. He's playing Wild Dog as he is written and he's doing it capably. It's just that I hate the way he's written.

Well MM hopefully will be gone soon. I feel like they think Wild Dog is working well just cause he's a comic character. When really to me all I think is how ridiculous he is and he looks like Jason.

[TwistedandBored]

I think Arrow should do what Legends did this season by having their new characters pair off with different old character each episode. Let them develop a relationship with the each member of the team. 

For example, we saw Rory bond with Oliver and then we saw him bond with Felicity. We also saw him have funny interaction with Curtis that is making many think the two can hookup. If you ask me, I think that is why he is more accepted. 

Rene on the other hand has a tense relationship with Oliver to the point Oliver handed him over to Diggle. He doesn't interact that much with Felicity other than calling her "Blondie" which she asked him not to do. His relationship with newbie's is more like I am better than you idiots. Combine all of this and you can see why many people don't like him. 

[statsgirl]

They could redeem Snart and Mick Rory because they're complex characters played by two good actors.  And maybe because they were written as funny and complex from the start.

With Wild Dog, it's like Guggie assumed that the audience would love him because he's from the comics and the men on the Arrow writing team love writing him.  The problem is that not only do most viewers find him an unpleasant, simplistic character played by an actor who seems to think that the character is all that and a bag of chips, it comes at a time when there are a ton of other problems on Arrow (the worst for me being how Felicity has been written this season).

Maybe he can be redeemed, although I don't think so. But moreover I don't want to put in the energy it would take for me to like having him take up all that time on my screen.

[insomniadreams88]

I just watched SA's live FB video, and he mentioned not to miss the last scene of 5x09. With all this hyping it up, it better not be BC or BS related, as possibly speculated, because that would be a complete letdown. 

ETA: Maybe Prometheus is chilling out in the bunker? I don't know. They're going to have to do something big after kicking Oliver off a cliff for S3's midseason finale and shooting Felicity for S4's. 

Edited December 2, 2016 by insomniadreams88

[bijoux]

What could possibly be spoilery here to be doodled over?

https://twitter.com/stephenamell/status/804779701382180864

[Mellowyellow]

1 minute ago, bijoux said:

What could possibly be spoilery here to be doodled over?

https://twitter.com/stephenamell/status/804779701382180864

Go to the jbuffy angel site they have a pic without the doodle. Sorry I don't know how to post the pic!

Yiiiiiiikes. It just keeps getting worse!

[Morrigan2575]

5 minutes ago, bijoux said:

What could possibly be spoilery here to be doodled over?

https://twitter.com/stephenamell/status/804779701382180864

From another picture posted by BamBam people seem to think it's William on the couch

https://twitter.com/hotsforolicity/status/804780842081992704

Edited December 2, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[bijoux]

I saw that spec. I honestly can't tell.

[Morrigan2575]

I thought it was Willa but, there'd be no reason to blur out Thea sleeping on Oliver's couch.

Edited December 2, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[insomniadreams88]

I cannot tell at all who's on the photo, even in the zoomed one. For all we know, it's someone's kid they just don't want shown in a picture. 

[ComicFan777]

It kinda looks like Evelyn to me.

[HighHopes]

Someone on twitter said it was Mavi. But I'm not sure that makes sense either for why he would scribble over her? 

[apinknightmare]

I feel like if it wasn't someone they wanted people to speculate about they would've just cropped out that part of the picture. But who knows with these people. 

Edited December 2, 2016 by apinknightmare

[looptab]

This episode is written by Guggenheim, isn'it? Entirely possible it's William.

[apinknightmare]

IF it's William, Oliver is going to have to draft a crayon and coloring book budget. 

[looptab]

This episode is also the last one of February sweeps, so my bet is on William being there to prompt the Olicity reunion. #BOOM

Please be useful, William.

[insomniadreams88]

If it's William, is it really a smart idea to have him around with Prometheus in Star City? Especially since we've seen that the security for the mayor will just tell anyone (like a reporter) Oliver's whereabouts? So either William has to be with Oliver at all times or have his own security. Otherwise, Oliver's basically just wrapping up someone with a bow for Prometheus to use to hurt him. 

[Chaser]

When it comes to Kid, Oliver is super stupid.

[LeighAn]

2 minutes ago, looptab said:

This episode is also the last one of February sweeps, so my bet is on William being there to prompt the Olicity reunion. #BOOM

Please be useful, William.

I agree. I think if it's Willam it's a good sign for not only Olivers growth but for Olicity especially if this time Oliver includes Felicity in on what's happening. Plus it would put to bed certain peoples theories that Felicity broke up with Oliver because he had a son by showing she actually cares for William and his relationship with Oliver.

[Mellowyellow]

But will they need to cart him around for the rest of the series?

Who is going to take care of him on a day to day basis? Better not be Felicity!!!!!!

[LeighAn]

6 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

If it's William, is it really a smart idea to have him around with Prometheus in Star City? Especially since we've seen that the security for the mayor will just tell anyone (like a reporter) Oliver's whereabouts? So either William has to be with Oliver at all times or have his own security. Otherwise, Oliver's basically just wrapping up someone with a bow for Prometheus to use to hurt him. 

Well I liked JBuffys theory that Prometheus targets William as the "person you love the most" and Samantha dies in the process protecting which would explain why William would enter back into Olivers life. It's just whether the writers would permanently bring William onto the show like that is the question. 

[bijoux]

5 minutes ago, LeighAn said:

Well I liked JBuffys theory that Prometheus targets William as the "person you love the most" and Samantha dies in the process protecting which would explain why William would enter back into Olivers life. It's just whether the writers would permanently bring William onto the show like that is the question. 

I've been thinking something like this too if it is him. I can only hope he's got maternal grandparents who will take him in.

Now watch when this all amounts to nothing. :)

[Midnight Lullaby]

It's very hard to tell but it doesn't look like William to me. It seems someone bigger judging from the legs but I don't know.

[lemotomato]

I hate to be that person, but SA did mention at SJ HVFF that the William storyline wasn't gone for good. 

[Starfish35]

I checked jbuffyangel's page, and there's an update saying that Ken (pursuit23) denied that the actress playing Samantha and the kid actor have been back on set.

ETA: https://mobile.twitter.com/pursuit23/status/804797741930934272

Edited December 2, 2016 by Starfish35

[Cleanqueen]

That could literally be anyone...someone sleeping on the job that he didn't want to expose. If Bam didn't try as hard to blurry it then I don't think it's a big deal.

[Morrigan2575]

I can deal with William showing up for an episode. I cannot deal with William being around on a semipermanent or even permanent basis. I also don't want to see Samantha again, I can't stand her.

[Carrie Ann]

It looked like Willa to me. But the only reason I could imagine covering her up is if she's in costume/makeup that is spoilery (wounds, etc.) even though whatever that would be is obviously not very visible.

Fingers crossed, because after the disappointment that has been 5A (for me), I really don't need William thrown in the mix of 5B.

Edited December 2, 2016 by Carrie Ann

[ComicFan777]

Is it possible that they recast the kid for a better actor if they are planning long-term?

[insomniadreams88]

My problem with a possible William return is that I doubt the writers would do any better a job with that story than they did the BMD in S4. Also, either they'd spend too much time on it or too little. (Like last year. We got one scene of Oliver with William and then the next time the kid was seen, he had stupidly thought he was just playing with his mother's friend when he was kidnapped and we were supposed to care so much about him because he was a kid, I guess?) 

[LeighAn]

1 minute ago, Starfish35 said:

I checked jbuffyangel's page, and there's an update saying that Ken (pursuit23) denied that the actress playing Samantha and the kid actor have been back on set.

Do you think Canadagraphs and Kenpursuit really have the same level of access this season though? Cause I've gotten the impression after their "I'm going to spoil every big surprise storyline" last season Ive gotten the impression that they've been cut off a bit. There has been hardly any spoilers from them this year and they've sounded a little less sure about things when they have posted stuff.