Spoiler Discussion Thread

[GirlvsTV]

Tbh, the timing of the storyline is what concerns me about it. I just don't have a lot of confidence in these writers doing any kind of nuanced character storyline around Felicity getting hurt, especially since it is basically being used for shock value and to get people buzzing so they'll tune in when the show returns in January.

All they're doing is repeating Oliver's s3 cliffhanger with the second most popular character this year. And since I didn't care for the way that turned out I'm not really excited to see it repeated for Felicity.

I would love to be wrong and have it end up being about HER and I do have a smidge of hope because I think they've been doing pretty good with Felicity and Olicity so far this season.

Edited November 20, 2015 by GirlvsTV

[dtissagirl]

You're right. But apparently to some people Felicity made him a pussy(which UGH not true at all). So without her he's badass again SMH. Apparently he has to be a killer for these people to Hell with Development and the fact their percious GA Comic book guy isn't a killer

I don't think we should be discussing what other people think about the show, but also, nowhere in the text of the show there's any indication whatsoever that Felicity emasculates Oliver, so there's no possible way the writers go for a "finding my lost masculinity" storyline for Oliver, that gets jumpstarted by injuring Felicity. It's more likely that they reveal she's an alien.

Edited November 20, 2015 by dtissagirl

[looptab]

And that's not even the point, since I don't think those who feel Felicity made Oliver a wimp are the same who are looking forward to Felicity being hurt. Those are two completely different arguments.

 

However I'm also in the camp of those anticipating this injury/hospital storyline, for the dramatic potential. Last year I enjoyed watching Felicity going through the stages of grief in 310, I'd like watching Oliver dealing with her being hurt. I'm especially counting on WM's comment when she wondered if he'd revert to old patterns, so I wouldn't mind a relapse to his old ways, to ultimately  find his own other way. 

Edited November 20, 2015 by looptab

[BkWurm1]

Not at all. That wheelchair means nothing. There's a hospital set, it's probably just hanging around.  

 

It's just that one stupid line from MG about the fall finale leading to seismic changes for the show.  I know I should just automatically translate it to last year's spiel about "game changing" and know nothing that big or bad or lasting will happen but what if THIS ONE TIME something sticks and is awful? 

 

I don't mind some angst and even a bit of hurt/comfort because I like seeing how much people mean to each other but I don't want any lingering issues and even though EBR looked fine in the BTS pic from 4-11, that could have just been Emily standing, not Felicity.  And I worry - just a tiny worry that I can't quite squash that what if TPTB know it would be suicidal to kill Felicity or even have Oliver leave her but what if they decided to ruin their lives and get Felicity to a place where she dumps him for his own good.  I loved the one off argument in Lost Souls but I hated the dragged out manufactured angst of last season.

 

  I didn't have the benefit of going away and recharging my batteries during five months of utter bliss.  I don't have the reserves to cope with the back half of the season if it turns into one giant angst fest.  Please no.  Please. 

Edited November 20, 2015 by BkWurm1

[BkWurm1]

Ok, went away for a while and regained my sanity.  Seismic change is just MG trolling for the fall finale.  I DO know better and while they will, I'm sure torture me for a while, it will be ok. 

 

Eventually. 

 

So in the mean time, I'm not going to go running off any more cliffs. 

Edited November 20, 2015 by BkWurm1

[bijoux]

In terms of strengths and where Felicity draws her self-worth from, I definitely see brainwashing as a bigger bad than a wheelchair. I don't think a wheelchair would weaken her or prevent her from doing any of the things she does either with the team or in her day job. So I'm not really against that outcome on principle of the matter aside from the sads about her being hurt. What's iffy is the way it's likely to be handled. So if these are my options for chose you're own adventure, I defintely pick wheelchair. With the caveat that it's temporary because the show isn't likely to be able to sustain it long-term.

[Morrigan2575]

This is going to be a really fun winter break.

 

Felicity with Glass of "water" - she's pregnant and miscarries

Baby Sara on Set playing in a wheelchair - Felicity is paralyzed

Plus there's the whole Felicity is going to DIE flash forward Grave freak out.

[BkWurm1]

This is going to be a really fun winter break.

 

Felicity with Glass of "water" - she's pregnant and miscarries

Baby Sara on Set playing in a wheelchair - Felicity is paralyzed

Plus there's the whole Felicity is going to DIE flash forward Grave freak out.

If she goes through either the first or the second, wouldn't that exempt her from the third on the list? 

[Morrigan2575]

If she goes through either the first or the second, wouldn't that exempt her from the third on the list?

With this fandom? The panic is never ending. Every season it's the same freakout, she's going to get killed so Lauiver can be together. She's going to be put in a wheelchair because of Oracle! (Which totally misses the whole point of Oracle). She's going to turn evii/gay so Lauiver can get together. She's going to get shunted off to E2 so Lauiver can be together, etc.

 

BTW - I seriously don't see the CW/DC/WB allowing Felicity/EBR to be put in a wheelchair for an extended period of time.  Totally shallow and all that but I can't see Pedowitz or DC/WB going oh yeah, let's keep our leading lady in a wheel chair so we can't see her legs/ass, etc.

Edited November 20, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[lemotomato]

With this fandom? The panic is never ending. Every season it's the same freakout, she's going to get killed so Lauiver can be together. She's going to be put in a wheelchair because of Oracle! (Which totally misses the whole point of Oracle). She's going to turn evii/gay so Lauiver can get together. She's going to get shunted off to E2 so Lauiver can be together, etc.

.

What, what? I've seen all the other freak outs, but Felicity turning out to be gay just so L/O could happen? When did that come up?

[dtissagirl]

I like hurt/comfort [in fanfic, mostly, which sort of guarantees me the comfort part simply by labeling it so], but my main issue with Arrow doing hurt/comfort is that they tend to only do the hurt part, and the comfort happens in Offscreenville.

[AyChihuahua]

 

I have zero shame about that and honestly, trying to shame anyone for enjoying a storyline, no matter what it is, is pretty unfair.

I didn't say anyone should be ashamed, I said I don't understand it.  Which is exactly what I meant: I very literally do not understand it.

[tv echo]

Remember also that WM said (about the 401 flashforward storyline): "We will see a little bit, a hint of it in 409 and possibly 410. And then, towards the end of the season, it will all be revealed." (TheWrap article, page 25 of Spoilers thread)

 

So between that and GB's quote, they're really going to make it look like Felicity is in the one in the grave.  If she is the one, as I've said before, I'd be so DONE with this show.

 

However, I guess I'd be more concerned if I heard rumors that the CW or GB wanted to develop a new show starring EBR.

Edited November 20, 2015 by tv echo

[apinknightmare]

I know this probably won't make you feel better, but if she gets injured to the point where she's in a wheelchair outside of the hospital - provided that pic is of her wheelchair - she isn't the one dying. I mean, not that I think there's a possibility of her in that grave anyway, but...yeah.

[wonderwall]

Basically what I'm going to be doing is looking for other clues passed all the anvils they drop regarding the death. They're going to be pushing Felicity, but I'm sure there will be clues as to who is actually going to die and I don't want to miss it.

[looptab]

What do you guys think,  they really didn't know who is going to be in the grave, they did and lied, or they have decided just recently/have yet to decide?

Edited November 20, 2015 by looptab

[Guest]

Yeah, they're going to make everyone think it's Felicity right up until the person actually dies. That was always going to happen because she's the person (outside of Thea) that Oliver loves the most. 

 

But Felicity getting seriously injured or whatever really does lessen the odds of it being her.

 

 

What do you guys think,  they really didn't know who is going to be in the grave, they did and lied, or they have decided just recently/have yet to decide?

 

I think they were lying. Or if they weren't lying I bet they had a narrow list of people it could be. There's no way you can plan out a season of TV by winging it.

Edited November 20, 2015 by Guest

[AyChihuahua]

What do you guys think,  they really didn't know who is going to be in the grave, they did and lied, or they have decided just recently/have yet to decide?

I don't understand how they could drop clues if they don't know, but I think I've just decided that these people are idiots.

 

I'm guessing that they at least have it narrowed down to a few.  But seriously, they forgot when Andy "died," they wrote a brother as not caring, at all, that his sister was murdered, they forgot Oliver speaks Mandarin perfectly, they forgot they electrocuted Roy, they didn't realize they were writing Laurel as a nutjob, etc.  They're idiots.

[SmallScreenDiva]

What do you guys think,  they really didn't know who is going to be in the grave, they did and lied, or they have decided just recently/have yet to decide?

 

They know, or at least have a short list for it and are waiting to see how viewers react to the season and various characters before making a final decision. I also want to revise my guess: It's not Quentin. In fact, it's not a regular. Don't care about Barry's presence at the gravesite. He's a red herring. Could be Alex.

Edited November 20, 2015 by SmallScreenDiva

[looptab]

I don't understand how they could drop clues if they don't know, but I think I've just decided that these people are idiots.

 

Yeah, it's this dropping clues thing that also @wonderwall mentioned upthread that made me ask. I know WM said there will be something in 409, but I thought that was about the place or whatever. I was convinced that they have always known, but, I don't even know why, I'm getting the feeling lately that they really don't know and will end up pulling something out of their asses at the last moment. So I don't know whether they'd drop clues to indicate who it might be (and even if they do know, why would they drop clues?Don't they want the big OMG surprise?) or just the ominous anvils-that as of now seem to be limited to Felicity and Lance (maybe Laurel, too?) IDK.

[dtissagirl]

I kinda think that with someone as involved in mapping his network's shows as Mark Pedowitz seems to be, there's no way he'd not demand to be told who they're killing when they pitched the storyline to him. Or at least giving him a short list of possibilities.

[Password]

So I'm the only one holding out that it's Laurel?

Oh.

[AyChihuahua]

So I'm the only one holding out that it's Laurel?

Oh.

I don't believe they have the guts to do that.

[Password]

OK, but my mind is made. Laurel is gon' die.

[Morrigan2575]

So I'm the only one holding out that it's Laurel?

Oh.

Nope, I'm 50/50 on Laurel or Lance.

I don't think they know, know. I think they have a short list of who it will be and have probably submitted that short list to CW/DC/WB Execs for feedback. They've probably gone back and forth which is why both Laurel and Lance have gotten death anvils. Felicity gets the most obvious death anvils but, I firmly believe she's the red herring/distraction to cover the real death

Edited November 20, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[SmallScreenDiva]

So I'm the only one holding out that it's Laurel?

Oh.

 

Oh, I want this bad. But I doubt they're gonna kill off another woman after the backlash with Sara. They won't kill off a mask because they are collecting for their TV Justice League. So I think they're gonna stick Laurel to being "Roy," in the background, occasional snark, extra body in fight scenes. This one instance I'd be so happy to be wrong.

Edited November 20, 2015 by SmallScreenDiva

[Starfish35]

So I'm the only one holding out that it's Laurel?

Oh.

I was super convinced that they were going to kill off Laurel in season two. To me, the signs all pointed to it. But they didn't, and then they killed off Sara in the very first episode of season three, and went all in on Laurel as Black Canary. So, as much as I'd love for it to be Laurel, I can't spend another season hoping for it. Killing Laurel would be an admission, once and for all, that they just can't make her work, and I don't think they're going to do that.

I'd be thrilled to be proven wrong though.

Edited November 20, 2015 by Starfish35

[kismet]

What do you guys think,  they really didn't know who is going to be in the grave, they did and lied, or they have decided just recently/have yet to decide?

I really don't think they knew who. I think they had a shortlist and I think they finalized the choice recently because they were at that point in the writing schedule that they needed to lock a name down for Jan/Feb shooting. And they have to have a name now to start that portion of the story arcs/plots/scripts.

 

I agree with those that say they will be teasing FS until the actual death occurs. FS generates buzz. And the main reason they had the flash fwd was to generate buzz. Otherwise they would have eliminated a character with little preemptive fanfare like they have for the past 3 seasons. But they wanted buzz this year and maybe try something new with the flash fwd.

[lemotomato]

I want to find out who pitched the idea for the flash forward grave and kick them where it hurts.

[looptab]

Hope you are right and they at least have a short list. You just can never know, haha.

[SonofaBiscuit]

Yeah, I thought that Laurel was a goner in season two as well.  Her love interest role was taken away, her BC role was given to another actress, and there was that blind item about a B/C list actress being written out of her role due to diva behavior.  And then there was the most bizarre thing of all...she went completely media silent, rarely giving interviews about the show or tweeting about it, etc.  Well, now I know that was because she was throwing a season long temper tantrum over the EPs bringing in another actress to play BC.  Perked right up when she got that damn leather jacket, didn't she?

 

I think there's like a 1% chance that it's Laurel in the grave.  But the only way I could see it happening is if KC voluntarily leaves the role for something that she perceives as better.  So, unless the CW is giving her a starring role on her own show, I think we're stuck with her :( 

 

 

[Carrie Ann]

What's extra dumb about fake-foreshadowing that it's Felicity who dies is that when we do see who it is, it will feel like a relief to the general audience. Not trying to get into a debate about her popularity, but IMO it's pretty damn high, certainly higher than any of the people I think are likely to be in the grave. So all the emotion behind the death will be replaced with a sense of, "eh, could have been worse." It's like these writers are incapable of writing toward the emotional responses they want.

 

The only reason I'm not sure they knew who was getting killed is that I see NO reason to say that. It's embarrassing and kind of rude, tbh, to the actors whose jobs are on the line to treat it so cavalierly or to lie about that. But if they weren't 100% decided, then I agree that they probably had to provide the network with the short list of possibilities, and I bet they had one person* as the frontrunner, but maybe that would allow them to change their minds if they saw something working or not working this season.

 

*Quentin is definitely my guess. I'll be even more sure of that when we see Donna in the flash-forward in 309.

[kismet]

They know, or at least have a short list for it and are waiting to see how viewers react to the season and various characters before making a final decision. I also want to revise my guess: It's not Quentin. In fact, it's not a regular. Don't care about Barry's presence at the gravesite. He's a red herring. Could be Alex.

I got that feeling it was Alex during the Brotherhood episode. There is a way they are writing him as expendable & necessary to the plot at the same time. Plus if he dies it motivates TQ to seek justice in his name too. It's a superhero show, the superheroes always need to avenge a loved ones death. TQ has her family but she needs her own LI motivating death.  I'm predicting it will be TQ at the gravesite for the next hint.

 

So I'm the only one holding out that it's Laurel?

Oh.

I'm still hoping for LL. But I'm 60 LL/40 QL at this point from a realistic standpoint if they choose a main cast member. Although I'm 50/50 they are even going for a main cast member at this point. I'll be interested to see how they handle the winter hiatus interviews that should give us a better material to pick apart. We need more information to determine if they are going for a major cast or if that was just a bluff and they are taking out a minor character instead.

[apinknightmare]

We need more information to determine if they are going for a major cast or if that was just a bluff and they are taking out a minor character instead.

 

WM said it was a "prominent" character, although what that means to her, I have no idea.

[AyChihuahua]

What's extra dumb about fake-foreshadowing that it's Felicity who dies is that when we do see who it is, it will feel like a relief to the general audience. Not trying to get into a debate about her popularity, but IMO it's pretty damn high, certainly higher than any of the people I think are likely to be in the grave. So all the emotion behind the death will be replaced with a sense of, "eh, could have been worse." It's like these writers are incapable of writing toward the emotional responses they want.

Jbuffyangel thinks they're doing it on purpose.  She thinks they're making it seem like it's Felicity so that when it turns out to be Laurel most viewers will be SO RELIEVED it's not Felicity that they won't care that Laurel's dead.  So it lessens the overall impact, definitely, but she thinks the whole thing is more to get rid of Laurel than to have real emotional impact from the actual death.

[kismet]

WM said it was a "prominent" character, although what that means to her, I have no idea.

Prominent is not necessarily Major/Main Cast, it's an interesting word choice. Parker Young is a prominent guest star that has been in almost every episode so far this season. So he is prominent in that he has his own fanbase, as well as screentime prominent in multiple episodes for a guest star.

 

But I do wonder if perhaps they wanted a major character when the gave the interview and are now encountering some problems in achieving or getting permission for that death. So they'll just regroup and pick another person.

[dtissagirl]

I'm gonna need someone going to the con this weekend to ask every single actor WHO do they think is in the grave, and then record their answer so I can over analyze their facial expressions.

[tarotx]

I think Alex might die but he's not a prominent character the audience will care about. Which is how it has been sold putting all the EP quotes together. Curtis is new and would be more that to the audience. Though both still only affect 1.5 characters. Donna has more claim with 3.

Edited November 20, 2015 by tarotx

[Carrie Ann]

Jbuffyangel thinks they're doing it on purpose.  She thinks they're making it seem like it's Felicity so that when it turns out to be Laurel most viewers will be SO RELIEVED it's not Felicity that they won't care that Laurel's dead.  So it lessens the overall impact, definitely, but she thinks the whole thing is more to get rid of Laurel than to have real emotional impact from the actual death.

 

As usual, I don't agree with her. First, I personally don't think there's a chance it's Laurel. JMO. But, if they ever did kill off the One True Black Canary, I don't think they would willingly cheapen that death and play it as a "gotcha." Also, if it were her, that would mean that they've determined that she's not popular enough to need to keep around, in which case I don't think they'd be that concerned about the response to her death, so I don't see the point in trying to minimize it. Especially trying to minimize it by instead teasing the death of a character that many of her biggest fans don't like. Unless she's only referring to an uproar from a feminist perspective? In which case, I still don't see the trade-off of Felicity for Laurel silencing that response.

[AyChihuahua]

Yeah, I don't think the EPs have the guts to kill Laurel, and I don't think they're smart enough or Machiavellian enough to come up with a plan like that.  For me jbuffyangel's most consistent error is having far, far too much faith in the writers.

[wonderwall]

OK, but my mind is made. Laurel is gon' die.

 

I thought she was going to die in season 2 as well... But I get why they didn't kill her. They wanted to try to rehabilitate her character by making her into BC. It partially worked and then they ruined that tiny shred of goodwill this season when the critics literally were hating on her character in episode 5. 

 

So now I think that Laurel has a larger chance of dying because she's already fulfilled her potential as BC and it still doesn't work because she's still unnecessary. Laurel is still largely ignored and no one really cares for her character. While Quentin, can act like a little shit but get praised by critics for PBs stellar acting.

 

So IMO I'm 70% certain Laurel is going to die. The writers are currently writing episode 14, so unless they can make a huge turnaround for Laurel's character in the next few weeks, I think the writers may kill her off because of the disinterest Laurel garners. 

 

I also think that now that EBR is becoming more out there in terms of interviews and photoshoots (which a leading lady usually does), Diggle getting praised by the critics and his episode having relatively huge ratings, Thea getting applauded for her stunt work and her arc, PB having control of the CW Arrow Instagram page from time to time, it's becoming more clear to me that KC/Laurel are quickly becoming an afterthought. That's not what the network wants. 

[looptab]

I don't want to dismiss anyone's opinion, but I think that there's no way Laurel is dying. As much as I'd like that very very much, they won't kill the Black Canary. Were they ever to realize she doesn't work and decide to get rid of her, they'd rather send her off on a bus than kill her. I just can't see that happening.

 

Also, I wouldn't read too much in EBR's latest media appearances. It's not something she has never done before, IIRC she has done some photoshoots last year as well. Now, if she were to appear in some more high profile talk show, maybe, but sadly I don't think that's happening.

[quarks]

I want to find out who pitched the idea for the flash forward grave and kick them where it hurts.

 

Greg Berlanti has a story credit on "Green Arrow," and this has his stamp all over it. 

[AyChihuahua]

Ausiello's blind item re the female lead seemingly being killed off was

Abbie in Sleepy Hollow.

http://tvline.com/2015/11/19/sleepy-hollow-abbie-dies-nicole-beharie-season-4/

[Morrigan2575]

It was never Arrow anyway. The blind item was "co-lead" Arrow doesn't have a co-lead. It was also for mid-season finale (Arrow's death was always April) and it was most likely not intended to stick (Arrow's death is supposed to be permanent).

[Sakura12]

If Laurel dies, I'd start watching this show regularly again. 

 

However I don't think they have the guts to admit they made a mistake with the Laurel character, they are going to keep shoving her in our faces until we all just accept her because we have no choice. Also last time KC didn't like her storyline she went media silent and cancelled all her Con appearances. If she were the character dying, I'd expect her to the same thing. She seems to be doing more than she's ever done before. 

[lemotomato]

Greg Berlanti has a story credit on "Green Arrow," and this has his stamp all over it.

As they used to say on TwoP, "Damn you, Berlanti!"

[kismet]

Not that is matters really as to who they chose. But I have feeling they haven't told the actors yet who they are killing. I think we will see more BTS behavioral changes and indicators from the cast in Jan/Feb. Until then, I think it's fruitless to pick apart the BTS or actors behaviors for clues as to who is in the grave.

[Velocity23]

For me KC is acting a bit weird. She is doing all these interviews with small blogs or radio stations that she alone set up and doesnt say anything new about her own storyline, while bragging that she isnt just a LI but has her own storyline.

 

The last time i remember KC canceling cons why she finally got her BC suit. But as soon the season ended she was back to campaigning for L/O, then she drop that and started with the Birds of Prey spinoff.

Edited November 20, 2015 by Velocity23

[calliope1975]

I would hope TIIC know by now who's dying, and I agree that a short list was run by the execs. If it's a main player that has a multi-year contract, that means $$ the network will have to shell out. If it's a yearly contracted player - like Alex/PY - there's less of a financial liability. I say all this with a very low contract knowledge base so I could be completely wrong. Did CD get a pay out when he was killed off 1 year into his 6 year contract? 

 

These writers aren't as smart as they think they are so part of me is leaning towards the obvious - QL, but then I remember the curve ball they threw with Sara last year so they are still capable of genuine surprise at times.