Spoiler Discussion Thread

[kismet]

I was going to say that wouldn't they know who they were killing off because of contract negotiations, but then I remember Tommy and his multi-year contract. 

....

That is all I needed to get out on the subject. This is part logic and a whole lot of wishful thinking. 

 

.....And the Fern is only good for trolling purposes. 

I pretty much duplicated your list & reasons during my thought process Weds night in between commercials of Empire.

 

I realize I am posting this now. But I have been so zen about this death that I haven't given a whole lot of thought about it until I came back to these threads. It's funny to read the panic afterwards. Twitter was blowing up in panic and I was just chillin watching my other shows without a care in my lil TV world. I am invested in them hopefully telling a good story and giving us hints to piece together a puzzle. That is why I enjoyed the Flash FWD, because I like figuring out how we get there. So they better give me subtle hints & clues. I don't need any anvils.

 

Right now everyone is a potential victim except BA & OQ. But I do think the writers are still working out their final choice. I believe that have it narrowed down to 3 options. The ARROW options are QL or LL, both are expendable for different reasons. There is also a rando LoT character option (for promo/crossover purposes) that they could introduce in the FB & the Out of the Box options is Walter Steele. I do think that other people could be on target with Roy, BabyMama or SupriseChild. But I'm pretty sure I will be ok with whoever they kill (I doubt it will be critical people to my viewing enjoyment). I may miss them - but that's what fanfic is for should it be someone I care about. If I can make it through TM & MQ, I can make it through this death.

 

If it was the Fern, than Sally definitely would have been there. No way Sally is missing out on being there for OQ. Plus wouldn't it be insensitive to send flowers to a Fern funeral?

Edited October 9, 2015 by kismet

[BkWurm1]

So someone over on the sight that should not be named claimed the Producers said in an interview that the person dying is someone we would care about. Anyone read that? It would narrow down our list.

[apinknightmare]

So someone over on the sight that should not be named claimed the Producers said in an interview that the person dying is someone we would care about. Anyone read that? It would narrow down our list.

How mad are we going to be about this death?

MERICLE: That depends. I don’t know. It will be good. We don’t necessarily know who it is right now. We’re still figuring the plan out for the season. But, we want it to have resonance. If it doesn’t mean something to the characters, it won’t mean anything to the audience either.

http://collider.com/arrow-season-4-premiere-marc-guggenheim-wendy-mericle-interview/

[Velocity23]

Asia promo for 4x02 The Candidate

http://sinceriously-melodiful.tumblr.com/post/130805509125/arrow-s04e02-the-candidate-wbtv-asia-promo

[bijoux]

"Packed you lunch."

Bwahahahahaha!

Damn! These two are so incredibly cute.

Felicity is wearing pants. Rough day ahead of her at the office?

She's wearing a skirt with a slit when she gets her lunch. The pants she's wearing at the loft. Maybe she chils in pants at home while dresses and skirts are her uniform.

 

So, that Quentin knocking Diggle out scene that isn't supposed to be what it looks like is...what, Quentin protecting Diggle from DD somehow, you think? It seems like mind control is out of the picture now that we know Quentin is willingly working with the dude for whatever reason. 

 

Maybe Diggle gets too close to things and Quentin tries to keep him away? 

This is exactly what I'm thinking.

 

Looking at the promo and Oliver tensely saying to Lance "Let us help" makes me almost excited to see Lance's arc this season, the conflict between what he feels is right, what DD wants from him, and the pressure around Team Arrow.  I bet Paul Blackthorne is having a great time after the two dimensional character he's had mostly so far.

Also from one of the promos, it looks like it's actually Quentin who plants the idea of running for mayor in Oliver's mind when he tells him the city needs somebody to step up during the day. And I have to say I like the idea of this coming from Quentin, a person with whom Oliver has an adversarial relationship. He's used to taking cues from Felicity and Diggle who are his circle of trust but I like that he's learning how to filter input from other sources.

 

Of course, now I'm also wondering whether Quentin does it to set him up. Like, Darhk wants Green Arrow but Quentin can't snitch on him without putting Laurel's head on the stake as well. So he serves Oliver up as another hindrance, mayor. All the while planning to unmask him as Green Arrow once Darhk kills him. Dead men can tell no tales, and the team would have no reason sacrificing themselves over a dead man. I have to say I'd be simultaneously appalled and impressed.

[apinknightmare]

The idea of THIS Oliver running for mayor still cracks me up, and it'll be even more amusing if he does it at the urging of Quentin who basically told him he sucked and was terrible and was the reason why the city is rotting to hell just last week. Especially if he throws in a crack about signing the city over to someone else, and does it all basically to get Oliver killed. 

 

I'd want Quentin to die even more than I already do, haha. 

[kismet]

 

How mad are we going to be about this death?

MERICLE: That depends. I don’t know. It will be good. We don’t necessarily know who it is right now. We’re still figuring the plan out for the season. But, we want it to have resonance. If it doesn’t mean something to the characters, it won’t mean anything to the audience either.

http://collider.com/arrow-season-4-premiere-marc-guggenheim-wendy-mericle-interview/

When I read this, I think it means the death with resonant with a character, not necessarily the audience. It will resonant with us if the audience is invested in its character. The audience does not necessarily need to be invested in the dead character. So I don't think it narrows done anything.

 

So this will probably be the last of my speculation until we get some more decent hints. But just because she wasn't listed (or I missed it if she was); and the thought came to me as I was falling asleep and I want bragging rights. My last candidate based on pure unsubstantiated speculation list is that the death is FB LI after she shows up in the present. It would resonant with OQ, so it would resonant with the audience. It would be their substitute Gwen Stacy story. So another checkbox they can check off. Checked & solved with no damage to their desired on-canonical pairing. Barry would not prioritize to make it to the funeral on time if he had pressing hero business, but would come out of respect for being OQ's friend. There would be no need for anyone from TA to linger around her gravesite. So yeah, I'm gonna put some money down on FB LI.

 

Personally, I hope FB LI is evil and makes OQ go to the dark side. But I could still see them going with that dark side angle in FB to contrast O/F and then bringing her back in present to redeem or explain herself thus making her a "good guy" again in OQ's mind. She would pull double duty because in the present she could also contrast the life potential of FS. It could inspire him to kill for the woman he loved both then & all the loss opportunities for her to have a happy life (not necessarily with him) in the present, now that he realizes the importance of a "happy life".

[tv echo]

The "him" that Oliver plans to kill could also be Quentin - if Quentin's betrayal leads to a loved one's death.  That would set up a GA vs. BC conflict/showdown.

 

If it's Laurel who dies (unlikely), then Sara can honor her sister by changing her name from White Canary to Black Canary. Circle completed.

Edited October 9, 2015 by tv echo

[Primal Slayer]

Oliver wouldn't even have a leg to stand on if it was Quentin since he lets Malcolm pass for killing hundreds of people and Sara. Whoever it is, they have to play it right since Oliver already lost a team member in Sara and didn't extract revenge.

[apinknightmare]

I don't want Oliver killing Quentin.

I am looking forward to it coming out that Quentin's working with Darhk, given how high and mighty he is with Oliver and his morality.

[SonofaBiscuit]

I think that there's no way that the death is Laurel, but could you imagine?  Laurel digs up Sara's rotting corpse and hauls her to Nanda Poorbutt to revive her in the Lazarus Pit, but Laurel dies and they're all eh, she's gotta stay dead.  Though, I'm guessing that this show will come up with some never-before-mentioned reason that the LP can only be used just this once for Sara, otherwise in six months, we'll all be asking why we can't just throw the dead person in there.  

[apinknightmare]

I'm pretty sure Sara's gonna be the cautionary tale of why you don't put actual dead people in there. She'll eventually get right, I'm sure, but she'll do something super fucked up first. I'm guessing no one will WANT to use the LP after that.

[looptab]

I think the FB love interest is the unidentified grave on Lian Yu. I really hope she doesn't show in present time.

[dtissagirl]

One of my comic book fanboy friends is 100% absolutely sure they're killing Laurel, but here's the ~twist: after Laurel dies, they're bringing in an alt.version from Earth-2 or whatever, that actually calls herself "Dinah" to replace her.

 

Just throwing it out there in case he's right and I have kill him. :)

[SonofaBiscuit]

Does Earth-2 Laurel/Dinah look completely different than our current Laurel?  If yes, I'd be fine with this insane plot development.

[Sakura12]

I would take that if "Dinah" also looks like a completely different person, played by a different actress. 

 

With time travel and alternate realities, I can fanwank that Sara 1 was from an alternate timeline that was changed in the past and we got Sara 2. 

 

Haven't they said that what happens with Sara will be why they won't be attempting that again. Which is why I think for it to be that high of stakes, complete memory loss would be the only way. Constantine will probably give Sara her memories back at another cost and then he'll flat out tell them that he will never help them if they ever do that again. 

Edited October 9, 2015 by Sakura12

[Morrigan2575]

One of my comic book fanboy friends is 100% absolutely sure they're killing Laurel, but here's the ~twist: after Laurel dies, they're bringing in an alt.version from Earth-2 or whatever, that actually calls herself "Dinah" to replace her.

 

Just throwing it out there in case he's right and I have kill him. :)

Is the Alt2 Version of Dinah played by a different actress?  If not,  it certainly won't improve KC's "acting" or her chemistry with SA or really most of the actual issues.  The only point to that is to turn Laurel into the Comics character (i.e. Meta Human Cry and better fight skills) and, frankly comics generally only use AU versions when they've just totally screwed the character up anyway. 

[KenyaJ]

Nanda Poorbutt 

This will never fail to make me laugh.

 

She's wearing a skirt with a slit when she gets her lunch. The pants she's wearing at the loft. Maybe she chils in pants at home while dresses and skirts are her uniform.

There was an article somewhere that mentioned we'd see Felicity dressed down more now that there will be scenes of her at home with Oliver.

[lemotomato]

I'm pretty sure Sara's gonna be the cautionary tale of why you don't put actual dead people in there. She'll eventually get right, I'm sure, but she'll do something super fucked up first. I'm guessing no one will WANT to use the LP after that.

But there must be a difference in severity of effects, since we'll only have 2 examples as reference-- almost dead (kind of crazy) and dead for a year (TBD, but presumably very crazy) I wonder how they're going to explain why the Pit shouldn't be used for even a freshly dead person.

[apinknightmare]

I don't think they need examples at different stages. Thea is what happens when you use it on a nearly dead person, Sara is what happens when you use it on a dead one. I imagine she's going to be messed up enough that they won't dare try again, regardless of how long the person has been dead.

[Primal Slayer]

Does Earth-2 Laurel/Dinah look completely different than our current Laurel? If yes, I'd be fine with this insane plot development.

Well Atom Smasher looked like his E1 counterpart so that would be a no. Katie would luckily still be around.

But MG probably isn't comfortable bringing the multiverse to Arrow so i don't see it happening.

[dtissagirl]

Haha, I knew this would amuse you guys. <3

[AyChihuahua]

Quentin has been on since the beginning, and has connections to nearly every character, so his death would resonate with both the characters and the audience.  He'll have some big moment(s) with Oliver, handing him the responsibility for the city and forgiving him, so Oliver would definitely shed one single Dean Winchester Tear of Manly Manpain for him, and consider himself the city's protector rather than angel of vengeance.  Plus it looks like Quentin got himself into bed with Darhk, so an emotionally-healthier Oliver wouldn't blame himself.  Add to all the story reasons for Quentin's death PB's goodbye-ish social media postings, and it's totally him.

[FortKnox]

Wrong thread

Edited October 9, 2015 by FortKnox

[Chaser]

After rewatching the episode, I think they don't know who they are killing off but they do know it's a Lance. 

 

Here is my thinking. They set up a storyline for every character in this episode but Laurel. Diggle had HIVE, Felicity had CEO, Thea had the LP, Quentin had his involvement with DD, and Oliver is apart of all that plus the flashbacks. Then you have Laurel. She got no set-up. We know she has the Sara storyline coming up, but they didn't bother having a Sara mention or having a moment with Thea that hints at something. She and Thea were really background players in all the Team scenes, her real scenes were with Lance. By the end of the episode you realize they were for Lance's storyline. 

 

I figure they are doing this for one of two reasons. They are setting up Lance's death and that is Laurel's 4B storyline. It's why they haven't promoted Laurel's storyline past Sara because they weren't sure she had a storyline. Or it goes the other way, Laurel's only storyline is Sara because she is killed in 4B. 

 

ETA: It would also fit the funeral scene. Barry is the perfect addition because it puts people in a panic. But the scene was written like Barry was there for Oliver not the victim. 

Edited October 9, 2015 by 10Eleven12

[Starfish35]

I figure they are doing this for one of two reasons. They are setting up Lance's death and that is Laurel's 4B storyline.

That fits with what happened last season. We got very little about Laurel up to the premiere, and that's because her storyline was Sara's death and they couldn't spoil that yet.

I just....gahhhhh. I really couldn't care less if Quentin dies at this point, but as I said a few weeks ago in the Hopes & Fears threads, I just really couldn't be less interested in round three of Laurel Lance reacts to losing a loved one.

[AyChihuahua]

I think the inclusion of Barry has no bearing at all on who it is.  I agree with 10Eleven12 that he would be there to support Oliver/TA no matter who died.  It's not like it's a big deal for him to take a few minutes to run to SC.  If Oliver's upset, Barry cares enough about him to be there.  Also, out-of-show there are two reasons for Barry to be there: (1) to give Oliver someone to monologue at without spoiling it; and (2) the EPs are in lust with crossovers.

[Chaser]

People use Barry as a reason for Felicity being the death, but I actually think it eliminates her. SA was playing it subtly to keep the audience guessing. I would like to think if there was a chance it was Felicity, they would have keep the lines the same but tell GG to play it more emotional. 

[Primal Slayer]

They set up the funeral scene fine. Barry comes late, Oliver says he wants to be alone, Barry leaves. This basically says that he asked Team Arrow to give him alone time thus why he is by himself before he is joined by Barry.

[SleepDeprived]

After rewatching the episode, I think they don't know who they are killing off but they do know it's a Lance.

 

You may not be wrong, considering that, in every season, a Lance has died. Granted it's always been Sara but since she's getting resurrected this time around, maybe the writers figure that they can spread the wealth around a bit. Sara "died" (or was shown to have died) in the Pilot of S1. Laurel "died inside" at the beginning of S2 because Tommy actually died at the end of S1 (which started her alcoholic spiral and Sara actually died for a minute or two later on). Then, of course, Sara died again at the beginning of S3. So, seems like the death of the Lances (well, really, just Sara) is the go-to of the writers for season premieres. A Lance death for S4? It's practically an Arrow tradition. :)

 

Then again, going by this logic, a Queen death is also an Arrow season tradition. Robert died in S1, Moira died in S2, and Thea died in S3. So, unless Oliver wifes Felicity this season and they have a super fast engagement/wedding in the six months between the S4 premiere and the supposed death for in April, she's not the Queen who could potentially be dead. Which would mean it could be Oliver's kid, then.

 

ETA: I just want to clarify that none of this is actual logic. I'm just trying to amuse myself so the death specs won't drive me nuts.

Edited October 9, 2015 by SleepDeprived

[HighwayFlower]

You may not be wrong, considering that, in every season, a Lance has died. Granted it's always been Sara but since she's getting resurrected this time around, maybe the writers figure that they can spread the wealth around a bit.

What will they do without Sara to kill! LOL!!!!

[Guest]

I do find it kind of hilarious that out of everyone Sara is the safest character on this show now. LOL. 

 

And then I remember they could still kill Felicity or Diggle and it's not so funny anymore. Haha. 

[Sakura12]

That's why I'm not that upset about the death. I know it can't be my favorite character again. She's finally safe. 

[Primal Slayer]

I doubt they would kill off Laurel and leave her father on the show. Especially when they can write that drama of Laurel losing her father.

[bijoux]

I'm not sure whether this pic has cropped up here yet. I don't remember seeing it. It's from episode 7 which is currently being edited. I know the resolution isn't the best but does that look like the temporary lair they're in right now? I thought they'd be at the new and improved one by this point.

 

[Guest]

That's why I'm not that upset about the death. I know it can't be my favorite character again. She's finally safe. 

 

LOL, well that's lovely for you! Not so great for the rest of us, haha.

 

I do think Laurel is probably safe too though because they went to the trouble of killing off Sara to start her arc/journey and that would be such a waste of time otherwise. 

 

But we just don't know who it is. I know who I want it to be. I know who I don't want it to be. Every theory is just speculation and wishful thinking at this point. It's gonna drive me nuts for the next 6 months I can tell.

[dtissagirl]

I'm not sure whether this pic has cropped up here yet. I don't remember seeing it. It's from episode 7 which is currently being edited. I know the resolution isn't the best but does that look like the temporary lair they're in right now? I thought they'd be at the new and improved one by this point.

 

 

I saw this picture floating on Twitter last night, and the entire conversation was about how Oliver is kneeling in front of Felicity. Because fandom never changes.

[catrox14]

If it's going to be a Lance why couldn't it be Dinah?  Oliver might shed a tear for her out of guilt. Barry wouldn't care about getting there on time. Laurel would be able to get to go by Dinah as a way to honor her mother. And it would solve their comic book name problem.

 

 

ne single Dean Winchester Tear of Manly Manpain for him, and consider himself the city's protector rather than angel of vengeance.

 

 

Point of order: It's Dean Winchester's "Single Man Tear". 

 

carry on. :)

Edited October 9, 2015 by catrox14

[bijoux]

I'd be fine with Dinah because Alex Kingston is another one of the actors I usually like who just felt off in their roles in Arrow for me. Also sitting at her table is Peter Stormare.

I saw this picture floating on Twitter last night, and the entire conversation was about how Oliver is kneeling in front of Felicity. Because fandom never changes.

 

I'm hardly surprised. I think this particular image was posted just to elicit those reactions.

[Happy Harpy]

Please tell me that TPTB didn't throw the grave scene in to keep the fandom busy because there's nothing else worth speculating about this season.

 

Where is the closest TV Anonymous center, where I can get the will to not speculate about what even the writers don't know (allegedly) ? 

[BkWurm1]

Ha! I think it looks like they are both picking something up off the floor more than he is proposing. I was just happy to see that way down the line in episode seven they are still writing cozy little Oliver and Felicity chats. I could put up with a lot if I get a regular supply of those.

Edited October 9, 2015 by BkWurm1

[kismet]

Is the Alt2 Version of Dinah played by a different actress? If not, it certainly won't improve KC's "acting" or her chemistry with SA or really most of the actual issues. The only point to that is to turn Laurel into the Comics character (i.e. Meta Human Cry and better fight skills) and, frankly comics generally only use AU versions when they've just totally screwed the character up anyway.

Which is basically where the show is with LL? From our posts here it seems to be where a portion of audience and critics/reviewers seems to stand as a collective regarding LL. Something does not work with how they write, act, produce & promote her character. Seems like its time for an AU, a funeral or a bus ticket for LL. Edited October 9, 2015 by kismet

[Primal Slayer]

From what I've seen around, her charecter reception has gone up quite a bit. And while i dont know how many people have voted, she is currently the 3rd most liked CW female right after Iris/Felicity on whatever pole is going on on whatever the site name is.

They need to start making the charecter more fun, that's for sure.

Edited October 9, 2015 by Primal Slayer

[kismet]

Has her character reception gone up or are people either apathetic or just glad she is finally the BC? Im not trying to be snarky but I think people are either just done fighting it or have moved into she's BC that's cool. I don't think her character (LL) reception has gone up, which is why bringing on an AU or shipping LL away would be great for the show.

No need to fix 3 seasons of crap writing they gave her character. I can believe OQ is a changed man. To me LL is still that passive aggressive b$+$tch that was happier with OQ & SL being dead, but stalks one around like a lost puppy & stole the other ones identity. A "new" LL via whatever means the show wants to give us would allow KC and the writers finally drop whatever crap they've been trying to sell to years. A fresh coat of paint or mask does not undo or cover up all the mistakes they made with the character. Its a win win.

[Sakura12]

How many of those "new" fans would care if Laurel left the show? I think people are just more accepting of her as Because Comics rather than liking the character of Laurel. If she's suited up and her stunt double is kicking ass people are fine with her. I don't think we'll see people lining up to see her as just Laurel. 

 

For me liking the character as whole is more important than just liking their alter ego. 

[KenyaJ]

Ha! I think it looks like they are both picking something up off the floor more than he is proposing. I was just happy to see that way down the line in episode seven they are still writing cozy little Oliver and Felicity chats. I could put up with a lot if I get a regular supply of those.

 

Maybe they're picking up all those clear marbles off the floor after knocking the dish over, and then, surprise!

[Primal Slayer]

Has her character reception gone up or are people either apathetic or just glad she is finally the BC? Im not trying to be snarky but I think people are either just done fighting it or have moved into she's BC that's cool. I don't think her character (LL) reception has gone up, which is why bringing on an AU or shipping LL away would be great for the show.

No need to fix 3 seasons of crap writing they gave her character. I can believe OQ is a changed man. To me LL is still that passive aggressive b$+$tch that was happier with OQ & SL being dead, but stalks one around like a lost puppy & stole the other ones identity. A "new" LL via whatever means the show wants to give us would allow KC and the writers finally drop whatever crap they've been trying to sell to years. A fresh coat of paint or mask does not undo or cover up all the mistakes they made with the character. Its a win win.

They seem to like her more overall. Of course kicking ass helps but ive seen a lot of people who weren't in her corner during s2 rally to her more once season 3 started and saw her as one of the brighter spots of season 3.

[HighwayFlower]

Depends where you read I guess. I keep seeing people say she is liked more, but I don't see it actually happening. I read a lot of people saying, they have just accepted she isn't going anywhere or that she is more tolerable, but I don't see much more then that.

Edited October 9, 2015 by HighwayFlower

[foreverevolving]

Depends where you read I guess. I keep seeing people say she is liked more, but I don't see it actually happening. I read a lot of people saying, they have just accepted she isn't going anywhere or that she is more tolerable, but I don't see much more then that.

I've been around Twitter and websites and yea.. her overall acceptance has not gone up. it's just that the rest of us has given up (mostly) and decide that it's just not worth our time and efforts to fight something that has little chance of being send away.. Laurel to me is like... a pesky flies in my apartment over the summer I can't kill them (no matter what I do) so I just sat the vinager bottles while also partially give up and wait for winter to come when I know they will all DIE!

[wonderwall]

In the end, IMO, people are just more apathetic regarding LL... She doesn't garner any talk, not a lot of media outlets are excited about her this season... A very small amount of people actually bring her up in conversations. With Diggle, regardless of how people felt about his costume, he trended when they revealed his outfit. They talked about him more in the season premier after Olicity and Darhk, so he at least has some traction... 

 

...LL on the other hand.................... IDK 

 

Same sort of goes for Thea. I don't see a lot of people invested in her arcs. She doesn't garner a lot of talk... 

 

Another reason why IMO the show would've failed without the inclusion of Diggle/Felicity into the team and the show.