Dean Winchester: aka Squirrel

[Myrelle]

5 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

My favorite was from Jus In Bello: "I'm trying to decide what to have for dinner tonight: steak or lobster? What the hell; surf and turf!" It's all in the delivery :)

I loved his phone call to Dean while they were in the bank in Nightshifter. That scene has always epitomized how classy and classic this show used to be, IMO. And that was the scene that made me understand exactly what the term Eyelash Porn meant. And that entire episode still holds up well for me, even after all these years and all the retconning that has happened.

But I have to say that my favorite Dean/Victor scene was the one in which he was the ghost who came back to exact his pound of flesh from Dean by trying to take his heart from his chest in Are You There God. That was Amazing and their chemistry was off the charts there.

[DeeDee79]

12 hours ago, Myrelle said:

I loved his phone call to Dean while they were in the bank in Nightshifter. That scene has always epitomized how classy and classic this show used to be, IMO. And that was the scene that made me understand exactly what the term Eyelash Porn meant. And that entire episode still holds up well for me, even after all these years and all the retconning that has happened.

Nightshifter remains one of my favorite episodes and season 2 was a great season overall in IMO. Totally agree with the Eyelash Porn; what an amazing close up in that scene. Jensen is ridiculously photogenic.

[gonzosgirrl]

2 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

Nightshifter remains one of my favorite episodes and season 2 was a great season overall in IMO. Totally agree with the Eyelash Porn; what an amazing close up in that scene. Jensen is ridiculously photogenic.

Not to mention my favourite music cue of all. I will never hear Renegade and not associate it with the ending of that episode.

[Casseiopeia]

Career goals...

[gonzosgirrl]

4 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

Career goals...

How sad is it that I'm jealous of a pair of hands?

[rue721]

Does anybody else think that Jensen is using more of his normal voice for Dean in S13 than he has been in past years?

I was just watching the episode where Rowena is going around killing reapers, etc, and in the ~BM~ at the end, when Sam and Dean are having beers with Rowena, he sounds downright normal.

I like it! Jensen's voice is fairly deep anyway, it sounds great naturally. And that Batman growl just bugs me out. I mean, he's still using it for the most part, but I feel like he drops it a lot more than he used to.

Or is that just me?

[devlin]

1 hour ago, rue721 said:

Does anybody else think that Jensen is using more of his normal voice for Dean in S13 than he has been in past years?

I was just watching the episode where Rowena is going around killing reapers, etc, and in the ~BM~ at the end, when Sam and Dean are having beers with Rowena, he sounds downright normal.

I like it! Jensen's voice is fairly deep anyway, it sounds great naturally. And that Batman growl just bugs me out. I mean, he's still using it for the most part, but I feel like he drops it a lot more than he used to.

Or is that just me?

Can’t say I ever noticed his so called “Batman growl” 

[Pondlass1]

She just wanted to run her fingers through his hair.   In terms of Dean's voice - it's so different in early seasons, but nowadays every once in a while I think I hear Texas from Dean.

[BabySpinach]

5 hours ago, devlin said:

Can’t say I ever noticed his so called “Batman growl” 

I only ever consciously noticed it in 10.03, when Demon!Dean was playing cat and mouse with his brother. It was obviously a deliberate choice, but a teeny bit distracting lol.

[SueB]

15 hours ago, rue721 said:

Does anybody else think that Jensen is using more of his normal voice for Dean in S13 than he has been in past years?

I was just watching the episode where Rowena is going around killing reapers, etc, and in the ~BM~ at the end, when Sam and Dean are having beers with Rowena, he sounds downright normal.

I like it! Jensen's voice is fairly deep anyway, it sounds great naturally. And that Batman growl just bugs me out. I mean, he's still using it for the most part, but I feel like he drops it a lot more than he used to.

Or is that just me?

It's funny you say that... I was watching "The End" today and "Future Dean" sounds an AWFUL lot like S13 Dean in terms of clipped sentences.  And S5 Dean seemed deeper in voice than he does now.  And the two combined to make me wonder if Jensen had slowly shifted his voice closer to his normal range.  He's got a naturally deep voice.  If you think about it... he's said he lowered his voice but to what end?  Was it to show the toll on Dean's body with everything he's lived?  The grizzled badass sound of a man who has seen too much shit?  Maybe.  But it almost seems to me that with age and character development, we understand how hard life has been for Dean.  His whole body and face show the same effects the voice was maybe trying to encapsulate.  Regardless, I think I prefer his S13 voice over S5 (at least as I heard it in today's #TNTRewatch episodes).

[ILoveReading]

I remember reading an interview with Jensen said that he lowered his voice even more after s4 because Dean's vocal chords would be permantely damaged because of all the screaming he did in hell.

[DeeDee79]

24 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I remember reading an interview with Jensen said that he lowered his voice even more after s4 because Dean's vocal chords would be permantely damaged because of all the screaming he did in hell.

That makes sense. Season 4 was when the raspy voice was the most noticeable. It didn't seem to be as deep in the following seasons. Either way it doesn't take away from his performance IMO.

[gonzosgirrl]

I could listen to Jensen or Dean read the phone book and be mesmerized.

[DeeDee79]

1 minute ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I could listen to Jensen or Dean read the phone book and be mesmerized.

Truth!

[ILoveReading]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I could listen to Jensen or Dean read the phone book and be mesmerized.

So much truth

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

I remember reading an interview with Jensen said that he lowered his voice even more after s4 because Dean's vocal chords would be permantely damaged because of all the screaming he did in hell.

And now I can headcanon that after Cas healed him a couple of times post Hell it's back to his more normal voice. I'm good with that. LOL

[BabySpinach]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

I remember reading an interview with Jensen said that he lowered his voice even more after s4 because Dean's vocal chords would be permantely damaged because of all the screaming he did in hell.

That is HAUNTING, holy shit!

[Myrelle]

4 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I remember reading an interview with Jensen said that he lowered his voice even more after s4 because Dean's vocal chords would be permantely damaged because of all the screaming he did in hell.

I remember that interview, too.

I think my favorite quote about his voice came from Todd Farmer the writer of My Bloody Valentine. He said something like Jensen's voice is as smooth and silky and deep as dark chocolate-to which all I can say is damn straight.

[Myrelle]

8 hours ago, SueB said:

It's funny you say that... I was watching "The End" today and "Future Dean" sounds an AWFUL lot like S13 Dean in terms of clipped sentences.

I noticed this in the early seasons of the show. It was one of the things that I loved best about the writing for Dean. He was so succinct and to the point.

Shiban was great at that kind of dialogue for him, but Cathryn Humphries and Raelle Tucker could bring it, too. Just check out episodes like Tall Tales, Simon Said, The Usual Suspects, Roadkill, and Folsom Prison Blues to name a few.

[Casseiopeia]

He doesn't even realize what he is doing to us....

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Casseiopeia said:

He doesn't even realize what he is doing to us....

I will die the day I see him play actual baseball in a baseball uniform.

[DeeDee79]

On ‎5‎/‎30‎/‎2018 at 9:24 AM, trxr4kids said:

Why isn't there an abundance of Victor fics I wonder. 

They're out there; you just have to dig. This was pretty good: https://archiveofourown.org/works/1351486

Edited June 5, 2018 by DeeDee79

[ILoveReading]

From @catrox14 in the Beat The Devil thread

Quote

I wonder if deep down inside Dean wishes Mary had never been brought back.

This is an interesting observation.  It would make an interesting question to ask Jensen at a con. 

I also noticed that Dean didn't include Mary in his retirement plans.  It does make sense since she's done nothing but reject him since she's gotten back, it has to be just another disappointment of him.

[SueB]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

From @catrox14 in the Beat The Devil thread

This is an interesting observation.  It would make an interesting question to ask Jensen at a con. 

I also noticed that Dean didn't include Mary in his retirement plans.  It does make sense since she's done nothing but reject him since she's gotten back, it has to be just another disappointment of him.

Dean and Mary were "square" as of 12.22.  It's entirely possible he was pissed at her for taking on Lucifer. "Mom made her choice." But Mary punching Luci was a classic Dean move (see stabbing Ruby).  Lucifer had caused her family SOOOO much pain.  And there was poor dead Castiel on the ground and Lucifer threatening her boy's again?  Yeah, I'd make that call too.  If she hadn't punched him, he wouldn't have fallen back through the rift and we could have 3 dead Winchesters.  It was a lucky shot, but I think even if Dean had some resentment, he understood.

And what was the nightmare he had when he was knocked unconscious in 13.01 -- his mother burning on the ceilng again.  So, I think by the end of last season/start of next, Dean was reconcilled with Mary.  Mary was the heroic victim in his mind and he was crushed she was dead.  

Until she wasn't.  Then Mary was his new Crusade for The Bad Place.

The only anomolous time was how "chill" he was while Sam was falling apart.  My headcanon is that when he recognized Sam's depression, he shoved his own to the back-burner and "kept the faith" for Sammy.  And I think he hoped Jack was with Mary.  Dean seems to ascribe a lot of confidence in Angels who are on his side (Cas and now Jack).  Almost over-expectations it sometime seems.

Once they had the list of ingredients he seemed confident they would get to Mary.  Once they had it, the urgency to get her came racing back.  Will all says to me that as of 13.18, Dean was still happy to have his mother and wanted her back.

Then came her decision to not return home. I think things started to 'crash' for him at that moment but Sam's compromise worked for him.  And he could deal with Mary's choices (which he arguably could rationalize) later.  

And now we are caught up.  

Bottom Line:  Dean's relationship with Mary is complicated but I think he is glad to have her back.  

[gonzosgirrl]

Meh. I think Dean's expression of love/hate/forgiveness may have made them textually 'square' for her deal with Azazel, but I think he's far from okay with her actions post-resurrection. Even his dream-walk with her in 12x22 was all about the past, and mostly about what it did to Sam - his own parentification was the only hint of the consequences of her actions on Dean himself.  And if he was moving towards forgiving/understanding her shitty treatment since being back when he thought she was dead (again), I think her deciding she needed to stay in another damn world to fight alongside her new family put the brakes on that.

I don't think Dean would ever utter the words that he wished she'd never come back, but I would be highly skeptical if he said he'd never felt it.

[ILoveReading]

27 minutes ago, SueB said:

And now we are caught up.  

I've watched the show, I know the sequence of steps.   I'm not talking about Mary's actions.  Of course he's not going to feel resentment for her going after Lucifer.  I'm talking about Dean's feelings. 

27 minutes ago, SueB said:

Bottom Line:  Dean's relationship with Mary is complicated but I think he is glad to have her back.  

I'm not sure they're square.  Dean got some catharsis but Mary still doesn't seem to see Dean.  She's happy he forgave her but that's all about Mary.   She says she loves them, but it comes across as name only, they're her sons.  But does she actually like them?  In my opinion these are two different things.  It doesn't seem like it.   But at the same time, Dean has experienced repeated rejections from her, she doesn't seem to have an interest in his life.  He told her he went to hell and that he was never a child and all she cared about was defending working with the Brits.  Nothing he's been through seems to have any kind of impact on her. 

So he might be happy she's alive but at the same time, I could understand if part of him wishes she had never come back.

Edited June 7, 2018 by ILoveReading

[rue721]

Honestly, I'm not planning to retire with my mother, either, but that doesn't mean I wish her dead. It's hard for me to believe that Dean wouldn't be extremely happy Mary's back, regardless of how painful and complicated figuring out their adult relationship might be.

If anything, I think there's a part of him that's still worried that her resurrection is too good to be true and he's just waiting for her to be snatched away again, which is why he was so convinced that she was dead in the early days of S13. Like of course she's dead, Mary is always lost/dead, just got to deal with it and accept it. (Which is an interesting reversal from the pilot, IMO, when he got on Sam's case for talking about their mother "like that" when Sam said she was gone and wasn't coming back).

I think it's the opposite of deep down wishing she hadn't come back -- I think that he's trying to take things as they come and be OK with whatever happens, but fundamentally, he loves the snot out of her and very, very much wants her alive.

And as soon as Dean realized she was alive, it seemed like he was overwhelmed with emotion again. IMO that was because because hope is always a complicated thing for him to feel when it comes Mary. I also think that he feels a strong sense of duty to Mary, and he felt he had betrayed her by "accepting" her death (again).

8 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I could understand if he preferred the Mary from his memories.

To me, this issue was resolved when Dean confronted Mary over Sam's crib in the S12 finale. On Mary's side, too -- I think she finally reconciled kid!Dean from her memories with her actual son who exists as a man now. IMO in that reconciliation, they accepted each other as they were, and reality as it was.

When it comes to Sam, IMO it's a different story. But that can go in his thread.

55 minutes ago, SueB said:

Dean seems to ascribe a lot of confidence in Angels who are on his side (Cas and now Jack).  Almost over-expectations it sometime seems.

That's a very interesting point. What I thought was most interesting about Dean's "retirement plan" is that if Cas was joining him and Sam on the beach, then I guess it would be up to Jack to fight all the monsters? To me, that puts an unrealistic amount of pressure on Jack to basically be a monster-hunting machine.

Jack has plenty'o'powers, but I don't get the idea that he'd be emotionally capable of handling something like that (at least in the near term). He's already having bad nightmares and stuff. He seems like a sensitive kid in general. Putting too much responsibility on him too early might ruin things. It makes me think of God giving Lucifer the responsibility of carrying the Mark and what happened with that.

It's interesting to me that Dean would just discount the amount of pressure that he could/should put on a kid, because on the one hand that makes perfect sense coming from Dean (since he has been able to handle enormous amounts of pressure from very early on), but on the other hand is probably not going to work with Jack (since Jack is already kind of collapsing under the pressure he's been under -- trying to sacrifice himself for Sam, punching and yelling at himself, having very loud/disturbing nightmares, stabbing himself with the angel blade, running away to parts unknown when under stress, etc).

[ILoveReading]

5 minutes ago, rue721 said:

If anything, I think there's a part of him that's still worried that her resurrection is too good to be true and he's just waiting for her to be snatched away again, which is why he was so convinced that she was dead in the early days of S13.

Mary's doing a pretty good job at making Dean think this since she runs from him every chance she gets. 

I don't see how things can be square between them when Mary still doesn't understand the depth of how the deal affected Dean.  He down played it so much and she doesn't seem to want to know what he went through.  She can pay lip service to it but she really has zero clue about Dean's life and she's never once showed an interest in it. 

Its all been "me me me." with Mary. 

I think its there's a reason why Dean was able to say Mary was dead without a body and why he couldnt' speak the words with regards to Cas.  He was happy when Cas came back, he called it his win.  Not his mother.

He also had a very unhurried attitude in the middle part of the season.  it was like he didn't care about anything.  Not even Sam's mental state.

Edited June 7, 2018 by ILoveReading

[gonzosgirrl]

14 minutes ago, rue721 said:

That's a very interesting point. What I thought was most interesting about Dean's "retirement plan" is that if Cas was joining him and Sam on the beach, then I guess it would be up to Jack to fight all the monsters? To me, that puts an unrealistic amount of pressure on Jack to basically be a monster-hunting machine.

Jack has plenty'o'powers, but I don't get the idea that he'd be emotionally capable of handling something like that (at least in the near term). He's already having bad nightmares and stuff. He seems like a sensitive kid in general. Putting too much responsibility on him too early might ruin things. It makes me think of God giving Lucifer the responsibility of carrying the Mark and what happened with that.

It's interesting to me that Dean would just discount the amount of pressure that he could/should put on a kid, because on the one hand that makes perfect sense coming from Dean (since he has been able to handle enormous amounts of pressure from very early on), but on the other hand is probably not going to work with Jack (since Jack is already kind of collapsing under the pressure he's been under -- trying to sacrifice himself for Sam, punching and yelling at himself, having very loud/disturbing nightmares, stabbing himself with the angel blade, running away to parts unknown when under stress, etc).

I am rarely one to 'blame' character actions solely on the writing, but in this case I absolutely do. That 'dream' of the beach was nothing more than lazy writing (basically repeating Dean's wish from Book of the Damned)

Quote

DEAN

We’re due for a win, okay? Overdue. I’ll tell you another thing, if this actually does work, we’re gonna take some time off.

SAM

What, like a vacation?

DEAN

Mm-hmm. And I’m not talking just like a weekend in Vegas or sitting in some crap motel watching pay-per-porn. No, I’m talking about a beach. Drinking cervezas, go for a swim, mingle with the local wildlife. When was the last time either one of us was on a beach?

and IMO fan-service, including Cas this time.

Dean is the last one who would put it all on anyone else, let alone a 'kid'. (I'm still loathe to call Jack that. It's very convenient that they grew him instantly into a face/body the fangirls could swoon over, but still have him be sweet and innocent nougat-baby as the story dictates). It was just shitty writing and yet another mischaracterization of Dean. IMO.

The only way I can accept such a line is if the intended implication is that all the big bad monsters were taken care of by TFW 2.0 before this retirement fantasy kicks in, leaving the stragglers to other hunters.

Edited June 7, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[ILoveReading]

4 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I am rarely one to 'blame' character actions solely on the writing, but in this case I absolutely do. That 'dream' of the beach was nothing more than lazy writing (basically repeating Dean's wish from Book of the Damned)

That's why that sounded familiar.  It seems they even copy and pasted the "I need a win" from that ep too.  To quote Sam.  "Do they even have an orginial thought?"

As for Dean's retirement, I figured the same, that it would be when the monsters were all but extinct, not that Dean would put it all on Jack.

But its not really that much of a burden for the sweet bag of cinnamon sugar, all he has to do is wave his hand the monster will fall down dead.

[BabySpinach]

23 minutes ago, rue721 said:

That's a very interesting point. What I thought was most interesting about Dean's "retirement plan" is that if Cas was joining him and Sam on the beach, then I guess it would be up to Jack to fight all the monsters? To me, that puts an unrealistic amount of pressure on Jack to basically be a monster-hunting machine.

Jack has plenty'o'powers, but I don't get the idea that he'd be emotionally capable of handling something like that (at least in the near term). He's already having bad nightmares and stuff. He seems like a sensitive kid in general. Putting too much responsibility on him too early might ruin things. It makes me think of God giving Lucifer the responsibility of carrying the Mark and what happened with that.

It's interesting to me that Dean would just discount the amount of pressure that he could/should put on a kid, because on the one hand that makes perfect sense coming from Dean (since he has been able to handle enormous amounts of pressure from very early on), but on the other hand is probably not going to work with Jack (since Jack is already kind of collapsing under the pressure he's been under -- trying to sacrifice himself for Sam, punching and yelling at himself, having very loud/disturbing nightmares, stabbing himself with the angel blade, running away to parts unknown when under stress, etc).

This seems like a pretty unfavorable interpretation of what Dean said. He only wanted to retire if he knew the world was safe. He's not going to kick back unless it's already done, so it's not like he's going to let Jack do all the work while eating bon bons at the beach. If this is about him excluding Jack from his dream retirement scenario, Dean didn't mention Mary, either.

[rue721]

23 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Mary's doing a pretty good job at making Dean think this since she runs from him every chance she gets. 

I don't see how things can be square between them when Mary still doesn't understand the depth of how the deal effected Dean.  He down played it so much and she doesn't seem to want to know what he went through.  She can pay lip service to it but she really has zero clue about Dean's life and she's never once showed an interest in his life. 

Its all been "me me me." with Mary. 

I agree that Mary will probably never understand, but I don't think that means that she and Dean can't be square. Dean has to accept Mary's limitations, because there's no alternative. There's not some alternative universe where Mary is a perfect mother with perfect understanding. This is the mother he's got, for better or worse. He's the son she's got, for better or worse. This is just how their lives have played out. I think that when they reconciled in Mary's dreamscape, that's what they were reconciling -- their hopes about what might have been with the reality of what is.

And honestly, I don't think Mary's imperfections are THAT hard to accept. She's self-involved and naive, but IMO that's pretty good in the grand scheme of things.

1 minute ago, BabySpinach said:

This seems like a pretty unfavorable interpretation of what Dean said. He only wanted to retire if he knew the world was safe. He's not going to kick back unless it's already done, so it's not like he's going to let Jack do all the work while eating bon bons at the beach. If this is about him excluding Jack from his dream retirement scenario, Dean didn't mention Mary, either.

I think the implication was that they were going to be able to pass the torch. Which is fair enough in theory, but given who they'd have to be passing the torch to, I think the idea is impractical.

Which I guess is meta, too. The show thought they were passing the torch to Wayward Daughters and look how that turned out!

ETA

And anyway, I thought the interesting point that @SueB brought up was about Dean's perception of angels, not about retirement. Although I think his vision of retirement being possible now that they're training Jack also backed up her point.

Edited June 7, 2018 by rue721
MOAR THOUGHTS

[ILoveReading]

3 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I think the implication was that they were going to be able to pass the torch.

Here is the dialogue: bolding mine

Quote

DEAN

Kid did great.

SAM

Yeah, no kidding.

DEAN

I mean, he keeps this up, and...

SAM

And what?

DEAN

I don't know.

(They stop walking and Dean turns to Sam)

Hey, you remember...remember when you asked if we could stop it? All the evil in the world?

SAM

Yeah.

DEAN

If we could...really change things? Well, maybe with Jack, we can.

SAM

Maybe you're right. But then what will we do?

DEAN

Mm. Yeah.

This. (Deans holds a beer has been carrying and Sam looks down at his) A whole lot of this.

But on a beach somewhere, you know?

Can you imagine?

You, me, Cass, toes in the sand, couple of them little umbrella drinks. Matching Hawaiian shirts, obviously. Some hula girls.

SAM (scoffing)

You talking about retiring?

You?

DEAN

If I knew the world was safe? Hell, yeah. And you know why? 'Cause we freaking earned it, man.

SAM (holding up his beer)

He includes himself and Sam when talking about stopping all evil and then specifically mentions if the world was safe.  So I think Dean is talking about retiring only if the majority of monsters were gone

[BabySpinach]

6 minutes ago, rue721 said:

And anyway, I thought the interesting point that @SueB brought up was about Dean's perception of angels, not about retirement. Although I think his vision of retirement being possible now that they're training Jack also backed up her point.

Ah, well I saw it as them training Jack so that they all could save the world together. I don't see Dean ever being willing to retire if there's still things to be done. He doesn't seem like a "passing the torch" type, or the type to sit back and let others do what he believes is his own duty, as ordained by Chuck.

[gonzosgirrl]

3 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:

Ah, well I saw it as them training Jack so that they all could save the world together. I don't see Dean ever being willing to retire if there's still things to be done. He doesn't seem like a "passing the torch" type, or the type to sit back and let others do what he believes is his own duty, as ordained by Chuck.

Agree. And as @ILoveReading's quote of the text shows (by my interpretation anyway) Dean starts talking about this after seeing what Jack can do 'in the field', leading to the idea that maybe they can wipe out all or most of the baddies in the world and then maybe kick back.

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Dean got some catharsis but Mary still doesn't seem to see Dean. 

To this point, I will die on the hill over this..I think Dean in 12.22 was not only begging Mary to see him so he could save her, but to SEE HIM....see him, acknowledge him, as just that little boy that felt her unconditional love because he exists. Nothing more, nothing less. (  And no I don't think Berens intended this in the writing, but I think that is what Jensen played, because he plays multiple layers for Dean).  

UO ahead, I don't think she loves Dean unconditionally.  And he feels that and knows that. I think that she doesn't really grasp that Dean's life was fucked in a different way because of the deal.  It needs to be addressed in a way that is far more substantial than "I had to be more than a brother. I had to be a father and a mother to protect him....and I couldn't do it".

Why wasn't Mary afraid that Dean would hate her for the deal and what it did to Dean?  Because Dean has extended the olive branch even when she ignored it.

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

and IMO fan-service, including Cas this time.

I don't think this was fan-service.  Dean clearly had a hard time when Cas was dead.  He was so happy when Cas was back. So I think he really does want to Cas to be on a beach with him and Sam. And no, I'm not saying this from a Destiel shipping lens.  I think Cas is Dean's Best Friend no matter what and Dean would not exclude him from anything at this point. IMO.  YMMV

[Lemuria]

2 hours ago, rue721 said:

To me, this issue was resolved when Dean confronted Mary over Sam's crib in the S12 finale. On Mary's side, too -- I think she finally reconciled kid!Dean from her memories with her actual son who exists as a man now. IMO in that reconciliation, they accepted each other as they were, and reality as it was.

Except she still has no idea who Dean is.  And she's had no interest in finding out.  She's never once asked him about his life, the things that happened to him etc etc etc.  She knows something about Sam because Dean made sure she did.  No one has bothered to do that for Dean and she hasn't bothered to ask.  And she hasn't been around him long enough to see who he is now because she'd apparently rather be somewhere else.

She has been so clueless as a mom that she either didn't realize or didn't care that she was destroying probably the last of his good memories of her with her casual dismissal of his statement that she was a good cook and cooked for him.  She couldn't even find a softer way of handling it.  That just amazed me.

Dean being Dean (and being used to being dismissed by his family), he probably still would rather have her alive but I don't think he'd be human if a part of him wished she hadn't come back to destroy the few good memories he'd had.  JMO

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, rue721 said:

Honestly, I'm not planning to retire with my mother, either, but that doesn't mean I wish her dead

To be clear, since it's my comment that sparked the discussion. I didn't say that Dean wished Mary was dead. That's a misrepresentation of my comment and opinion.

Dean had more or less adjusted to life without Mary. He had accepted her death and loss YEARS ago. It hurt him and he lived with that grief. He had some happy memories from when he was a little boy, with her.

What I was actually saying, is that given how much Mary has disregarded Dean since her return;  how her involvement with the BMOL got her tortured by Ketch causing Dean to have to be drugged up himself and attached to something that forced him to be further ignored by her. That made them more vulnerable to the BMOL through Mary, etc, that her being resurrected has maybe not turned out to be all that great.

And Mary isn't happy.  She clearly was tempted to go with Billie in s12, but because Dean and Sam  clearly didn't want her to go, she stayed. 

So all in all, I think it's totally reasonable for Dean to think something like "I think her being resurrected was all in all not that great" . Not. "I wish Mary were dead again" as you seem to think I've said or implied, which I didn't.

[ILoveReading]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

UO ahead, I don't think she loves Dean unconditionally. 

This isn't unpopular with me, because I agree. 

[SueB]

6 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I am rarely one to 'blame' character actions solely on the writing, but in this case I absolutely do. That 'dream' of the beach was nothing more than lazy writing (basically repeating Dean's wish from Book of the Damned)

and IMO fan-service, including Cas this time.

Dean is the last one who would put it all on anyone else, let alone a 'kid'. (I'm still loathe to call Jack that. It's very convenient that they grew him instantly into a face/body the fangirls could swoon over, but still have him be sweet and innocent nougat-baby as the story dictates). It was just shitty writing and yet another mischaracterization of Dean. IMO.

The only way I can accept such a line is if the intended implication is that all the big bad monsters were taken care of by TFW 2.0 before this retirement fantasy kicks in, leaving the stragglers to other hunters.

I'm presuming you are using the bolded terms in a subjective way (i.e. in your opinion), because having Dean repeat his "beach fantasy=retirement" is more like a consistent perspective than lazy for me.  When he called out God on two different occaisions, he talked about his 'sitting on a beach somewhere'.  So I think Dean equates beach with 'no responsibilities'.

As for "fan-service", IMO this is just showing the continued maturation of the relationship.  Before it was just he and Sam retiring.  Now he's including Cas.  And Sam is including Mary and Jack as well in his 'fantasy'. What makes that fan-service?

I guess what I'm saying is that your post implied (to me) that you think those bolded terms are objective facts and I just don't see it.  Or am I mistaken?

[MysteryGuest]

I think Dean and Sam's relationship with their mother is just as complex as most people's relationships with their mother...except that theirs came back from the dead.  I don't think for one second that Dean wishes his mother never came back.  He was absolutely beside himself when he learned that she was still alive in the AU and being tortured.  He was filled with guilt for believing she was dead and was desperate to save her.  Dean doesn't really hold grudges.  He gets angry, but then he forgives, especially where family is concerned.  

When she first came back, and initially signed up with the BMOL and betrayed her sons, he was absolutely feeling angry, rejected, etc., as was Sam.  He had his cathartic moment with her when he told her he hated her (for what she did to their family), but that he understood it and loved her still.  They had no time to move beyond that point, because she was immediately sucked into the AU.  But IMO, he forgave her and fully intended to move forward.  I think people tend to read too much into the fact that Mary might say "call Sam".  I don't think there's anything to be read into that, whatsoever, but that's just me.  

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

I'm presuming you are using the bolded terms in a subjective way (i.e. in your opinion), because having Dean repeat his "beach fantasy=retirement" is more like a consistent perspective than lazy for me.  When he called out God on two different occaisions, he talked about his 'sitting on a beach somewhere'.  So I think Dean equates beach with 'no responsibilities'.

As for "fan-service", IMO this is just showing the continued maturation of the relationship.  Before it was just he and Sam retiring.  Now he's including Cas.  And Sam is including Mary and Jack as well in his 'fantasy'. What makes that fan-service?

I guess what I'm saying is that your post implied (to me) that you think those bolded terms are objective facts and I just don't see it.  Or am I mistaken?

If you read the whole post you'll see I did say it was IMO (in my opinion) twice.

So many things are repeated and reused in Dabb's reign, I don't think it's a stretch to call it lazy. And in my opinion, that whole scene was a trope - the cop who dreams of retirement then gets shot on his last day. Lazy. And yet another disservice to Dean when clearly can be interpreted as somehow shirking his responsibilities off on poor, woobie Nougat Baby.

I say fan service because I feel that's what it is based on the inundation of where's the angel comments whenever he is not included in things. I absolutely believe in the friendship and brotherhood between Dean and Cas, and even Sam, but why would an angel retire to a beach?

Edited June 8, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[MysteryGuest]

I don't see Dean or Sam retiring to a beach.  A vacation, maybe, but living there...I can't see it.  And if the world is suddenly safe, there might be more interesting things for a less than year old nephilim to want to do, rather than hang out on a beach with some middle-aged guys.  Dean has talked about that illusive beach for 13 seasons.  He and Sam and Cas will have earned their "retirement".  Jack is a baby who's barely scratched the surface of who he's meant to be.  

I just can't concern myself with what people say on social media.  It's the same handful of people who say the same things all the time.  And there is some crazy shit out there.  It doesn't alter what I think about a specific scene or episode.  I'd like to tell you to just ignore the noise, but I don't want to make light of the fact that it obviously bothers you.  But seriously, who cares what anyone else thinks?

[Myrelle]

4 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

I'd like to tell you to just ignore the noise, but I don't want to make light of the fact that it obviously bothers you.  But seriously, who cares what anyone else thinks?

Well, I think that Dabb and co. care a lot about what certain segments/parts of the social media outlets think and try with all their might to appease certain segments of the show's fandom who make up the larger part of those segments, while pretty much ignoring others; and their big go to sources of what the "fandom" wants are those segments known as Tumblr and Twitter and so that's who they try to please and appease and cater to for the most part and this, even if it means to hell with good/decent storytelling and writing.

And I further think that Wayward Sisters was big-time proof of that and the more I think on it, the happier I am that it wasn't picked up because Tumblr and Twitter are far from the only people who make up the SPN fanbase OR any other CW program's fansbase, for that matter.

So I can't speak for anyone else, but that's why what's said in especially those two outlets is of concern to me-because(and to make it relevant to this thread) fans of Dean Winchester as a character unto himself are fewer and farther between on those two outlets than the two big shipping segments(and three if you count the Bros Only contingent).

Edited June 8, 2018 by Myrelle

[Pondlass1]

Although I wanted so much more from the whole Demon Dean story line, I did have a chuckle that Dean with a twisted soul, Dean without responsibility or guilt, Dean free as the wind and well able to handle himself, Dean without his brotherly appendage, that Dean... chose bar hopping, bar brawling, karaoke and barmaids as his chosen life of freewill.  No beaches in sight.  He didn't seek luxury or fortune and wanted to rule no one.

Beer, bars, brawls, barmaids.  That's Dean's idea of retirement.  (Although Dean on a beach wearing just shades and shorts is kinda nice too). "-)

ETA -- I wouldn't dare say this anywhere else but in Dean's thread.... but I have a suspicion that if these two brothers did actually retire... that they'd drift apart.  Hunting keeps them tangled together and their love is the greatest love of all.

But they're really not much alike are they? 

Edited June 8, 2018 by Pondlass1

[trxr4kids]

14 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I say fan service because I feel that's what it is based on the inundation of where's the angel comments whenever he is not included in things. I absolutely believe in the friendship and brotherhood between Dean and Cas, and even Sam, but why would an angel retire to a beach?

I'm picturing Cas on the beach in his usual get up staring intently as children play < parents frantically gather their children and flee in mass>.

[ILoveReading]

I personally don't find the relationship between Dean and Mary that complex. mainly because  its practically non existent.  Dean reaches out a hand, Mary smacks it away and runs in the other direction.

I really don't think Mary wants to be in her sons lives.

Edited June 8, 2018 by ILoveReading

[ILoveReading]

Since its Hiatus, I thought I would start up Dean discussions again. 

Discuss Dean in episode 11 (I think this is where I left off).

1. Scarecrow- I really liked this one.  It had that B horror movie feel.  I really expected the scarecrow to start moving.  I don't mind tension or fighting among the brothers if it feels organic and I felt like this fight did.  It had been building and finally came to a head.  Jensen was great in that scene where he apologized to Sam.  I just wish we had gotten more from Sam's end.  It gave me one of my favorite lines.  "I hope your apple pie is freakin' worth it."

2. Playthings- It did establish Dean's love for Daphne, so it was nice to see the continuity with Scoobynatural.  I didn't have a personal computer back then so I was shocked to learn that Maggie was imaginary.  (I think it was Maggie, its been awhile since I watched this).  I felt for Dean in this one.  When he said he never had a home and when Sam made him promise to take him out if he goes dark side.  I really liked the homage to The Shining with the scene between Dean and the butler in the bar.  IMO, thats how you do a homage.   The dolls were creepy.  I miss the horror element that episodes like Scarecrow and this one gave us. 

3. Mystery Spot- This was more of a Sam episode, but I enjoyed it.  Jensen did a good job with Dean's many deaths. 

4. Family Remains- I wasn't a fan of this episode.   It required too many WTF moments to make the plot work and I felt bad the kids.  I kind of have a head canon that there were so many mistakes made because Dean was running on empty.   But I don't think that was deliberate.  (I think Carver wrote this).  It took a dark turn at the end when Dean said he enjoyed torturing.   A bold move.  I don't think Dean actually ever enjoyed it.  If he did he wouldn't feel guilty.  I think it was more about a sense of relief of getting off the rack and being in control.  Jensen continues to deliver during these scenes.  Its part of the reason why Jack was such a failure.  I'd be more worried if Dean unleashed his dark side.  But that's a topic for another thread.

5.Sam Interrupted-  I loved this ep.  I never understood when it was called Sam Interrupted when it was far more about Dean.  It showed just how much responsibility Dean was shouldering.  I have to admit was I surprised when the psychiatrist was revealed to be in Dean's head.   I wish the show would give us more eps like this and What is.  Dean's screwed to hell psyche makes for some fascinating eps and discussion.  Jensen was great as always.   "Pudding."

6. Appointment in Samarra- This is another really good ep.  I've always enjoyed the dynamic between Dean and Death and this ep gave it to me in spades.  I also really like Dean/Tessa.  It was nice to see Robert Englund.  I just wish we got to see him again.  It's one of those times where Death does a favor for Dean.  I asked Julian about why Death does favours for Dean, and he said its because he's cute, plus he feels he's kind of an uncle towards Dean.  I like Lisa but give me more Julian too please.  

7. Adventures in Babysitting- Not my favorite ep, and I really disliked the directing in the end where Dean is basically just forced to stand there so Krissy can get the kill.  But this did give me what is probably my favorite non verbal acting from Jensen, when Dean was practicing his smiles.  Never have I seen such sad smiles.  Nothing reached his eyes.  Give Jensen an Emmy already. 

8. LARP and the Real Girl- I'm not a big Charlie fan so this wasn't one of my favorite eps.   I really disliked Charlie's line about Dean ruining Sam's happiness and Dean basically waiting to get permission from Sam to have fun.  But I did enjoy Dean's enthusiasm for LARPing.   Shallow moment, Jensen looked great in that outfit. 

9. First Born- I can't give Dean in this ep enough love.  Its one of my favorite eps of the series.  Lots of Dean/Crowley interaction.  It was the beginning of Drowley.  I loved Tim O's Cain.   He and Jensen had great chemistry.   It was an interesting addition to the mythology.  It gave Dean his first mytharc in years.  What can I say about that badass fight scene.  Cain calmly sitting there shucking corn while it was happening made it better.  I also love Dean's ability to improvise and use what's around him.   He's this show's MacGyver.  Did I mention Jensen needs an Emmy. 

10. There is No Place Like Home- Not one of my favorites.  To much making Charlie into a Mary Sue.   But I did like Jensen's performance.  I could feel his struggle to try to stay on the straight and narrow. 

11. Into The Mystic- Again more of a Sam ep, but I did like Dean's interactions with Mildred.  Having an actress like Dee Wallace made what could have been very cringe worthy scenes into something poignant.   Jensen and Dee had some great chemistry.  Althougth the scene where Dean starts banging his head off the wall was disturbing.

12. Regarding Dean- Another one of my favorites.  Jensen was fantastic in this one.  The Mirror scene made me really for Dean.  I just wish it hadn't been cut.  Its another ep Jensen should have gotten an emmy for.  (IIRC, Jensen received and honorable mention for performer of the week).   I just wish they had gone into the darker side of the curse a little more.  I also liked the scenes between Rowena and Dean.  Jensen's "sucks to be that guy" had me chuckling.   He has such great comedic timing. 

13. Breakdown- More of a Donna ep.  I did like this one because it gave us lots of Leader Dean.  Which is my favorite characteristic.

Overall episode 11 seems to be a good one for Dean. 

Favorite ep- First Born.

Least favorite ep- There's No Place like Home.

[Katy M]

Scarecrow-My favorite Dean moment is when he yells Your pie better be freaking worth it.  And also that he is still working on the plan. And when he's in the diner trying to get the couple to leave town without sounding creepy. I really love this episode.  

Playthings-I like this episode, but I don't know that it's a Dean standout.  I love the scene where Sam's drunk and makes Dean promise to kill him.  The pain on Dean's face is heartbreaking.

Mystery Spot-I love this episode.  It's so funny.  "You'll thank me when it's Wednesday."  "Whatever that means."  

Family Remians-I hate this episode. It's the first episode of the series that I hate.  I got nothing positive to say about it.  

Sam Interrupted-My favorite Dean moment is after he's "gone crazy" and he's in Martin's room.

Appointment in Samarra-One of my favorite episodes ever.  I'm pretty sure I love every minute of it, but if I had to pick a fave Dean moment it's probably after he's "killed" the little girl and he tells her her dad will be alright and she asks really and he says he has no idea.  

Adventures in Babysitting-I'm in the minority, I think, but I do like this episode.  I just think I like it more as a whole than the sum of its parts.  I guess the cherry picker scene was kind of fun.

LARP and the Real Girl-I love it when Dean finds joy in the job.  So, for that reason I kind of liked this episode in that he gets excited to put on the costume and then at the end he gives his Braveheart speech.

First Born-Not one of my favorite episodes.  Mostly because I hate it when either one of them does something stupid.  especially something that's not in the heat of the moment but that they can think about.  I did like the fight scene,t hough.

There's No Place Like Home-Sigh.  I got nothing.  The only thing I really like about this episode involves Sam and then it's just that he's there it's not really about him.

Into the Mystic-I liked the scene where Dean and the older woman (forgot her name) were sitting on the couch talking about sunsets and whatnot.

Regarding Dean-"I know how to shoot a gun?"  And riding the mechanical bull. And his heart to heart with Rowena.  And reading notes that he disregards.  And, of course the heartbreaking scene in the bathroom.

Breakdown-Only seen it once and it's a bit fuzzy.

My favorite episode is Appointment in Samarra.  Least favorite:  Family Remains.

9 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I don't think Dean actually ever enjoyed it.  If he did he wouldn't feel guilty. 

I don't know whether Dean enjoyed it or n ot, but I don't think logic holds up.  I have felt guilty over stuff that I've enjoyed.  I would submit that most people have. You wouldn't do the activity that you felt guilty over in the first place, if there wasn't an element of enjoying it.  Take affairs for instance.  Everybody enjoys them at the moment (I would imagine.  I've never had one), but hopefully at least some people feel guilty afterword.

[ILoveReading]

20 minutes ago, Katy M said:

. You wouldn't do the activity that you felt guilty over in the first place, if there wasn't an element of enjoying it.

I don't think this really applies in Dean's situation because the reason he he started torturing was stop being tortured himself.  He didn't first pick up the blade for enjoyment.  He really didn't have much of a choice but to keep going.  I figure if he stopped and refused he would have been put back on the rack himself. 

Edited June 9, 2018 by ILoveReading